Team Mafia 2018: Mafiosi Revolution (Over)
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I'm at work and shouldn't actually be posting in the first place and am probably going to limit the amount that i let this distract me.
I'm pretty confident that this is town-Transcend, and I have a not-bad track record of reading him iirc.
It's town keely and town aristophanes as well. Pretty confident in those three.
I don't buy anyone who claims to have a strong read on mulch yet but would happily vote him purely for game meta (and I don't think he's done anything he isn't capable of faking yet, at least that I've seen), and cabd's first reads post is as other people have already pointed out really sketchy.
Gonna wait until I can actually read the whole thing after work as opposed to half-skim-half-reading half of the pages. I also would love some justification from anyone who townread Ginngie so far (particularly from cabd).-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Okay.In post 595, Mulch wrote:
I dislike opens and complicated setupsIn post 593, Chara wrote:why'd you choose a normal game before roles went out?
Kagami: could you take a stab at convincing me why Transcend isn't scum?
Why did you specifically choose *this* normal before roles went out?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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And why not invention mafia, which was explicitly not going to be a very complicated setup?In post 597, implosion wrote:
Okay.In post 595, Mulch wrote:
I dislike opens and complicated setupsIn post 593, Chara wrote:why'd you choose a normal game before roles went out?
Kagami: could you take a stab at convincing me why Transcend isn't scum?
Why did you specifically choose *this* normal before roles went out?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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So, your teammates assigned you to this mini normal over the other before receiving role PMs?In post 603, Mulch wrote:I didn’t care which normal I was going to pick, I let my partners choose that
Not really buying this tbh.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Yep.In post 635, Mulch wrote:
I have?In post 634, implosion wrote:This is something he has explicitly stated he just does sometimes.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I mean.
The benefit of doing it as scum is pretty damn apparent from the argument that you make in that thread. You "confirm yourself as town."
I personally think it's meaningless in terms of reading into your alignment, whereas it could potentially be very useful for reading into the alignment of someone without the same meta of having done it before.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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did *you* read the thread and somehow miss my response to you in it?In post 646, Mulch wrote:
Did you read the thread or are you just bullshitting?In post 645, implosion wrote:I mean.
The benefit of doing it as scum is pretty damn apparent from the argument that you make in that thread. You "confirm yourself as town."
I personally think it's meaningless in terms of reading into your alignment, whereas it could potentially be very useful for reading into the alignment of someone without the same meta of having done it before.
Or your response to me, wherein you explicitly say it's not worth it to put any weight into mason claims like this from anyone else's point of view other than the person claiming??-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Sure. I intentionally cut it off because I was pretty sure it wasn't going anywhere and I don't want to take over the thread with a discussion that I think is mostly meaningless.Patrick wrote:I think I'd like implosion to complete wherever he was going in his dialogue with Mulch.
The reason that I mentioned that thread in the first place was entirely to give context that is, IMO, necessary to accurately interpret your mason claim. That context is not the details of the thread or your argument: it's just that you've thought about and acted out fakeclaiming masons before, in general, not necessarily only as town.Mulch wrote:The entire thread was dedicated to how if you knew you were town, claiming a mason with someone and pretending you are masons makes it so that town as a collective has a better chance to hit scum. So I'm confused at how you tried to discredit someone that townread me because of it based on the thread. Because the premise is 1) Lynching scum better 2) You have to be town in the first place. This is why I'm asking if you actually read the thread, because you trying to say "oh, Mulch would be confirmed town as scum" based on THAT THREAD which had the premise of the seeker being town makes no sense to me. Of course if I'm scum and I try to mason someone I'm going to be town, but that has nothing to do with the thread at all
I think it means that the mason claim is null, because it's something you've thought a lot about. I think someone as seemingly self-meta-aware as you would know the advantage you could gain in your scumgames by claiming masons like that and then saying you were doing it because you were town and have a history of doing it as town; if you only ever did it as town and repeatedly pointed out how you only ever did it as town, it would be a trust tell. Given what you're claiming, that you've mostly done it as town but occasionally as scum, it isn't foolproof, and if there's one game where I think you or anyone would be likely to intentionally break a meta pattern like that in a scumgame it would be team mafia. Which is why I don't trust it as a reason to towntell you. That said, I don't think it's scummy. I think it's meaningless. I personally am actually not really sure how to reliably read you. I can see the point made earlier about you potentially not wanting to give toranga towncred as scum but it's not something I think you're that unlikely to do as scum, especially if you think toranga is going to be townread anyway.
Will be home to complete thoughts in ~hour and a half.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Alright. Real content time.
As much as I agree with the sentiment, this read feels a bit... conciliatory to me. It's something I can see from Cabd-scum who doesn't think he can get away with scumreading Mulch. Definitely not strong though.In post 459, Cabd wrote:Mulch is an asshole and therefore probably town. Sigh.
It's gonna be one of THOSE games.
Gin and spif is an interesting pair, and I'd like the justifications for having those reads at that point.Townreads on Gin and Spif, minor townreade on transcend. Rest is static noise at the moment.
This is the main line in Cabd's post that rings scummy to me. It seems very arbitrary coming from town; even if they have history, Kagami hadn't exactly made a significant entrance to the game. It just feels a bit off to offer to power through the game with them at that point. Idk, the line in general just feels like something that comes from scum trying to look like they have real plans to sort the game out than from town who actually has that plan. I don't think it's as strong as I thought it was when I read the post the first time though.Would like to sort Kagami and then power through the game if they're town, and powerlynch them day one otherwise.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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The initial mulch likely-scum read and the aristophanes locktown read are both crossgame meta. Mulch is I think pretty likely to be handed a scum role PM, given his track record afaik on MS of being repeatedly mislynched as town and repeatedly winning as scum. This is of course not a strong read, but an alright starting point. Aristophanes however is a strong read. I actually cannot imagine his team handing him a scum role PM. He's too infamously easy to read. This is also slightly the basis of the cheetory read, but mostly he just looks like how he always does as town. Transcend will be a bit tougher to enunciate, but a lot of his posting feels not-awkward to me, and I remember it feeling awkward in his scumgame. Some examples are 194 and 196, 259, his overall trajectory on Mulch.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Yeah, I can buy those as at least weak towntells. Will need to mull over them a bit. Interesting tell.In post 786, Cabd wrote:In post 783, implosion wrote:I'd like the justifications for having those reads at that pointIn post 86, Spiffeh wrote:I think Team Mafia needs stricter participation requirementsIn post 335, Spiffeh wrote:You guys should stop talking to each other
I call it the "play nice" towntell; it doesn't work on newer players but for older players I tend to find active attempt to reduce apathy to be town-motivated.
As for Gin, 405 rings very true to the towngin I just modded for, and also have a similar aspect of the above tell; which I've seen her do before as town:
In post 405, Ginngie wrote:you can meme all you want and spam the thread with a pointless argument with Mulch when you know it'll just fog up the thread with nothing being accomplished.
It's not gonna change the fact that you're doing all that to ignore a scum read by someone who gets you every time lmao
I also will agree with the general sentiment of Toranga-town.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Yeah this post is pretty good.In post 807, Spiffeh wrote:@Ginngie I found this post from Cheetory compelling
I haven't read the last 5 or so pages though so maybe my opinions will change who knows!??!?!?!?In post 477, Cheetory6 wrote:
Okay. Your job is to start working on being town if you are town then.Cabd wrote:Okay cheet your job is to keep me sane. Any time I am getting not-sane, please pull me back from the brink.
Do you think it's possible for me to have a very good read on kagami given their posts to present?
(:
I don't really have much experience with Kagami, but I think there are things that they've posted that are pokeable in general. The defense on Una was interesting enough, wouldn't be hard to get some kind of feeling for whether they're legitimately trying to sort Una there or if they're just WKing to generate content. Could ask them about an update on his Spiff read. Or what about the Mulch case that Transcend posted that they finds compelling.
I just kind of overly feel like your post was easy commentary and the Kagami thing was at best kind of lazy and at worst you, as scum, trying to overexplain your thought process to seem like you're doing something when you're not really doing anything.
You said you haven't read yet which is all fine and dandy, but you have my attention for when you do catch-up atm. And I'm unfortunately too dumb to just let things happen so I could get a more natural read on you :')
It's potentially very telling how Cabd and Kagami wind up interacting as the game goes on. For both of them.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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It's really interesting that Una listed Spiffeh and Chara twice in his early readslist, once in 209 and once in 211. Don't know if it means anything? It's a bit weird in the first place that he interpreted Transcend's request as asking for a full reads list. But meh.
Keely, is 217 a townpost or bullshit?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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This quote from me in the game I played with Transcend-scum kind of resonates here:Implosion you do realize Transcend's forte as scum is having good tone
I feel like he isn't trying hard here, and he has the right mix of irreverence and pointedness from what I think his town game is supposed to look like.I wrote:As for Transcend: I still think he's scummy. Frankly it feels like he's trying way too hard relative to how it felt like he played in my other game with him. In that game he seemed overall irreverent, making snyde comments and commenting on a sort of arbitrary subset of the things that were being said (of course it was a large normal so there's a difference there but etc). Something feels off about his entry into the game and I think it's that it feels like he's going "hey guys I have reads look at me."-
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implosion he/himPolymath
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think cabd's ginngie towntell is a bit better than his spiffeh towntell. That said, the best way I have to read ginngie is most likely to just dialogue with her later, which I'm in no particular rush to do.
I think my townset right now is aristophanes/cheetory/toranga/transcend/firebringer vaguely in order of confidence. I sort of want to add una to it for that one post (:s) but i will wait on cheetory's case before thinking more about that slot. Cabd I think needs more data to be readable.
Kagami is really underwhelming to me so far. I don't really remember their play that well from the one game I played with them a couple years back but it's not a slot that I can see significant townreads on.
Spiffeh is also underwhelming so far. His one interesting point is the one toward Kmd but I don't think it's an especially difficult point to make as scum. Him deciding to call me "town before the game started" 800 posts in is also a little bit sketchy; if he had that opinion, I see little reason for him not to have expounded it earlier before people were starting to townread me, similar to how I made a point to mention Aristophanes-town early so as to make a point. But different strokes etc perhaps.
Kmd is i think readable off his posting so far but I haven't gotten a foothold yet.
No that isn't everyone.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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When I say I'm in no particular rush to do it I mean that it can happen whenever it happens~
And my life's pretty good I think.
If I have scumleans atm they'd be vaguely chara and maybe mulch but not really, and also maybe cabd but not really. Basically all of those people I can actually easily see turning into strong reads either way based on upcoming events. But it's not really accurate to say that I'm scumreading anyone right now. I'm pretty reluctant these days to actually scumread anyone early d1 unless something sort of falls into place, which it does sometimes but not always. I mostly just accumulate townreads.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I actually vaguely think spiffeh can be town for page 38? At least I think I buy what he's saying.
I also think 979 from Kmd is potentially fairly town. Seems like a fairly bold elaboration to make if Kmd is scum.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Basically, free towncred; I can easily see scum-mulch doing this to town-Toranga if he assumes that toranga is going to be townread either way, especially since mulch may have thought of it during pregame/may have been thinking about it before then when he saw he was getting scum role PM. Basically I just don't think there's any negative utility to doing it as scum if he was under the assumption that toranga was going to be obvtown, and there is simple positive utility in it giving him potential towncred/him later being able to say "look at me, i broke my scum meta!"Kmd wrote:It was a "claim" that was obviously never going to stick unless they are either actually masons or scum together in which case why claim so early? So what is he even trying to accomplish as scum?
I sort of agree that it's somewhat unlikely to come from scum mulch who thinks he might have been able to get away with a mislynch on toranga.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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this post would be better if it had been written in iambic pentameter.In post 1096, Cheetory6 wrote:When Mulch is gone I will take his place.
I lean more strongly toward Kmd-town right now. Will justify/respond to Patrick tonight.
Would like to see Transcend link a Mulch game where he does something like this as promised.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Elaboration on Kmd-town for Patrick.
This isn't the quote that I read it off of originally (it's in fact Kmd's response to Patrick) but I think it's actually a stronger example. There are two parts to this. Part one is that this is a fairly complicated team dynamic to fake from someone who isn't under any pressure whatsoever. I don't know Kmd's scum game well or anything, but going out of your way to offer this elaborate justification of Math and him usually syncing but not being able to here and being somewhat unsure of what to do because of conflicting reads but still offering original insight is I think not something that scum would do in the situation Kmd is in. It's just so proactive beyond what I think scum has any need to do. It's the sort of thing that has more obvious town motivation than scum motivation because scum would have less motivation to put themself out there with something like this that could easily be read into both ways.In post 1047, Kmd4390 wrote:I mean I wouldn't call it turmoil. Mathdino and I actually sync pretty well together from the little bit of recent experience I have with him. It's just we got opposite impressions on this game when we read it. He has more experience with unabomb than I do so maybe I need to default to him on that read. I think we still disagree on Transcend but we haven't talked much about him. We just disagreed on some reads. It's bound to happen from time to time. I'd be pretty shocked if anyone could honestly tell me that across five games their teams agree on every read. The difference is probably that Mathdino is more vocal and assertive than most people. Which is fine. It just came off wrong I think.
The second part is the last few sentences of the pots here, Kmd saying they'd be shocked if anyone had five players agree on every read. It's just a very bold thing for scum to say, in a sense; like the previous point I think it's something that scum would be afraid to say for fear of drawing flak from players advancing the argument about this being similar to hydra dissonance being a scumtell.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I mean, he is ish? But see softclaim etc which I was avoiding elaborating on but shrug. I was a bit unsure what to think about him since the first time he softclaimed earlier which I'm not sure if people caught but assume most did.In post 1264, Cheetory6 wrote:
Is Cabd not in your pool atm?In post 1259, implosion wrote:I'm somewhat thinking Chara + Kagami + ???? scum atm.
Third could be like, ginngie? or spiffeh? or patrick? Or mulch of course, but if I'm right on Kagami i'm not sure if they'd bus this way, if I'm trying to theorize a full team. There are also some other townreads I could be wrong on like una or firebringer but cabd is probably town unless something weird goes on.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Can you give some examples?In post 1286, Toranaga wrote:I think his interactions with transcend are very towny;gamesolvey;highly evaluative
I've felt like most of Mulch and Transcend's direct interactions have been really not that deep throwing shade at each other. I don't remember Mulch giving any reasons to scumread transcend that felt particularly deeply evaluative but i may easily be missing something in the deluge.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Well yeah butToranga wrote:transcend's push on mulch is too strong for the little transcend has presented as reasons,
1) the same imo can be said about mulch's push on transcend from what I can remember of it, and
2) when transcend said he wanted to case mulch, i.e. elaborate on his reasons more, mulch said transcend would be claiming scum by casing him??? so like, mulch apparently doesn't think town-transcend would be elaborating on reasons for scumreading him. So that's not a good reason for mulch to scumread transcend. There's sort of a chicken and egg problem of how the mutual scumread developed.
I agree it's really strange. And somewhat scummy on face. I mostly read it as joking around, honestly, not as being entirely serious. And it's a very easy thing to push against if Mulch is scum, and so I don't really see Mulch's immediate reaction and explanation as hard to fabricate. It is still the one thing that makes me think twice on Transcend like I think I've mentioned but none of his other posting has felt off to me at all and I still don't remember Mulch ever giving satisfactory justifications for Transcend being scum.Toranga wrote:the 'reaction test' with calling me scum and then pushing mulch for not immediately acting out on it is cringe level scummy if you ask me.
The difference between the two for me is that I haven't seen anything from Mulch that I've felt strongly like I can read into either way (though I have seen some weak things) but I feel like I've seen Transcend towntell strongly.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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In post 1293, Toranaga wrote:can you go over transcend's towntells for me
I'll be sure to pick it up if they're true towntells...
I asked first :XI wrote:Can you give some examples?
I've given some not-very-specific references (here, here) but can elaborate more tonight if you want.
Also need to elaborate thoughts on Kagami tonight.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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yeah this is the one I was referring to.In post 1310, Cabd wrote:
Also this one but less overt, but yeaaaaaaahhh.In post 869, Cabd wrote:I'm not gonna get lynched.
Not convinced Kagami holds off posting this in the main thread as scum; someone else had already mentioned seeing a softclaim (iirc it was someone else at least) and there are so many pairs of eyes of each alignment that can potentially find a softclaim that I'm not convinced scum would feel the need to share it privately; obviously going public is a bit of a risk WRT how people react though. Tbh i felt a little bit awkward seeing the softclaim and not mentioning anything and I think my initial reaction was that it might have been scummy because I'm not sure why you'd softclaim in team mafia and I figured everyone else saw it but I still held off mentioning it because shrug.
But etc. Not really worth thinking about at this point.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Thoughts on Kagami are more muddled than they were a few hours ago. I'm offput by their insistence on the team-meta part of the Mulch read; it's not entirely inaccurate but it feels like resting on laurels and a very easy argument to make as scum. Still thinking about the reads list.In post 1236, Kagami wrote:The odds of a team having N scum PMs is as follows, btw:
0: 30.0%
1: 40.8%
2: 22.3%
3: 6.1%
4: 0.83%
5: 0.05%
@Toranga: I'll still give you what you asked for wrt transcend later if you want it, but I still want those example from you wrt mulch being consistently highly evaluative/gamesolvey here in a way you think he can't fake. I still see no material reason to townread Mulch.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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you literally have said you take pride in playing the same as town and scum?In post 1362, Mulch wrote:
Cause your badIn post 1361, implosion wrote:I still see no material reason to townread Mulch.-
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I really don't understand this statement. "You're not gonna do anything with that vote, just move it off me" is the kind of thing that obvtown says. Someone proclaiming themself to be "not obvtown but town enough to avoid being lynched" is like... a very sensible place for a vote? You aren't obvtown. I agree with that sentiment. But if you aren't obvtown, doesn't that mean that you should be one of the people that others should be trying to actively sort, i.e. shouldn't you be a good place for a vote from someone who's personally unsure on you?Ginngie wrote:I shouldn’t be obv town, I’m town enough to not be lynched but not killed.
So understand that you’re not gonna do anything with that vote on me and focus elsewhere
?????????More than likely we are doing Cabd or
Do you really think there is any chance in hell we're lynching Cabd at this point????-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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New current townset fwiw is {cabd, Kmd, cheetory, aristophanes, toranga, eddie cane, spiffeh, patrick, una} again vaguely in order of confidence.
Leaving an other set of {Kagami, Mulch, Ginngie, Chara, Firebringer}.
Firebringer was weak in the townset before but I don't think I've seen anything from him since then that's reinforced it. Una is also notably very weak because it's literally entirely off of the i-wouldn't-pick-scum post sounding pretty genuine but apart from that he could totally be scum.
Kmd i personally think is just blatantly obvtown.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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And Mulch, because I do want a response to this:
You've called me bad for not townreading you here. You've also said (either here or in some game that was referenced in meta, idr) that you consider your town and scum games very hard to distinguish. Do you not see how these are contradictory? You obviously love to indulge in self-meta; why should I be townreading you so easily in this game? What have you done here that youaren'twilling or able to fake as scum?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Well, shrug i guess. I'm assuming it's an actual claim for now but we'll see. Even if he retracts it that'd be a pretty damn bold thing to do as scum.I'm still not sure whether to read it as a claim or just a test of Kagami's alignment? It seems like Ginnstie isn't sure and 2 people are still voting Cabd, both of whom have posted since the alledged claim. That's mainly why I was looking for it to be confirmed or denied.
(That said of course, no rush, cabd.)-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Is there a reason you choose to share this now, other than eddie subbing in?In post 1572, UnaBombaH wrote:I tried to deliberately avoid calling Trans town OR scum, because I wanted him to feel he has me in his pocket.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i'm an idiot for forgetting to check the thread ~2 hours ago.
I basically wholeheartedly agree with Patrick's assessment of Mulch's recent posting. I want to call it town, but I don't know if I can. But:
chara wrote:i don't get mislynched as town. ever. i get wagoned and suspected plenty. there's a difference. i obvtown when it matters.Unvote
VOTE: Chara-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Is it just me or is this post actually INCREDIBLY sketchy. Like, really, really impressively sketchy for how short of a post it is.In post 1656, Firebringer wrote:
I think he has a good track record but I have no idea what his method of reading me is.In post 1654, Eddie Cane wrote:gonna do reads a bit later discussing a replacement for trans
but anyways
hey fire can trans read u? y/n
Imagine you're you, and you're town, and someone asks "hey, can my teammate read you?"
The answer is probably yes or no, or maybe something more complicated. If it's yes, then if you're town, you'll confidently say yes, they can, or you'll give the kind of hedge that Mulch did with regards to boonskiies (i.e. "yes, they can read me, and if they scumread me it likely means their teammate in this game is scum"). If the answer is no, and you're town, you'll say they can't read you. But if you're scum, it can be an awkward question to answer if the actual answer is yes, for obvious reasons: if you can't justify scumreading the person in question, then them giving a scumread on you is suddenly tantamount to a death sentence, as you've essentially given that person your blessing to give a read on you.
Which brings us to this post by Firebringer. "I have no idea what his method of reading me is." Why do you bring that up as town? It just seems so, so much more likely to be something at the forefront of your mind as scum, when you know you have to say the person can read you but you feel like you want to discredit them in case they turn against you.
I might be completely making the significance of this up so opinions etc thank you-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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And this is also quite quite sketchy. I liked spiffeh's disengagement with Ginngie iirc. But this attack against mulch is at the very least bad, if not scummy. You don't get to phrase the attack like this:In post 1683, Spiffeh wrote:
I mean you scum read Transcend (Eddie's predecessor) HARD until he broke the rules by proving he was being genuine so not much you can do about that oneIn post 1664, Mulch wrote:That's incorrect I'm scumreading 2/4 people that vote me
And implosion is just obviously town
when there are exceptions, even if you think those exceptions are "obvious"... especially if, when taking those exceptions out, it only applies to two people??Mulch why is everyone that votes for you/calls you scum automatically scum?
Like I sort of have a difficult time believing Spiff is being genuine with this slight. But it's not the kind of thing that he has a whole ton of motivation to post as scum, either?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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The thing about the "Chara wouldn't have picked scum" argument in general is that it's kind of wrong?
Sure, Chara is self-admittedly bad at scum. But it also self-admittedly enjoys scum. And so if their team cared more about having fun than strictly having the highest probability of winning team mafia then etc.
As for the "i can obvtown in the right circumstances" i see no reason for us to not put that claim to the test?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Yeah, my argument for you being scum is that i still have lingering doubts about that wall i posted earlier that you responded to + the poe is shrinking in and i have distinctly seen nothing from you that makes me think town. None of your selfmeta-ish things have given me pings of "this is most likely genuine" like spiffeh's did earlier.Chara wrote:this is an argument to wagon me, not an argument for why i'm actually scum. you've presented a hypothetical, that i'd care more about fun than i would about winning, and suggested that you see if it's true. it's not compelling and it makes me wonder if you're scum after all. which is entirely possible. :>-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Vague assorted modern thoughts.
I could join the Kagami wagon but I don't quite want the day to end yet (and do not trust an l-2 wagon to not blow up), I think we're in a fairly productive spot right now.
I agree with Keely that my (and perhaps the Collective's?) townread on Toranga is rusting a bit with time. Ari as well to an extent but like, the point with Ari is that whether we ever lynch Ari is something that we can put off until tomorrow anyway even disregarding the whole team mafia meta arguments.
I think Kmd is actually my strongest townread atm.
Ginngie is townish now too which makes things eargh.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Kmd is pretty unquestionably town to me.
Cheetory is continually looking how I expect him to look.
Aristophanes and Cabd are strictly off the table today and probably both town.
Toranga and Eddie are still pretty confidently town from their early games.
Spiffeh and Ginngie have both done things that make me kind of feel both ways. Ginngie is probably a bit unlikely to take scum and spiffeh's selfmetaish talk over the past while has felt mostly genuine? He's probably still a decent candidate for scum though just on the basis of his scumgame being good. I don't know if any of this stuff is really solidly outside of his scum range.
Patrick is sort of gut town and probably i need to look more into him?
i just found a dota game though so i'll continue this later but basically i hunt mostly by townhunting and just haven't seen things from you yet.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Yo.
I’m phone so no real content but I feel a bit incrementally better about mulch from the last couple pages.
Anyone who strongly thinks Kagami is town has until I get home in a couple hours to convince me not to join the wagon bc the only reason I remember anyone saying is liking their entrance and I remember finding it mediocre.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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This is fair. I have had vague reasons for a while beyond just lolPoE but I haven't really synthesized them well which I'll try to do in the next hour. I'd like to say that my lessened reluctance to voting is because Mulch has acted somewhat townier and part of what's holding me back on Kagami scum is also being unsure on Mulch and thinking they aren't scum together, but the real reason is just that i am giving in to a whim and impatience. Although if you as you just said want to draw out the day longer I'm fine with it.In post 2083, Cheetory6 wrote:The number of people hopping on because "lolPoE" and "shrug I don't townread him" is kind of concerning and feels kind of weak given that this is Team Mafia and I've been kind of expecting town to be tryharding here?
Chara and Ginngie it's like, okay, sure I understand context for these [and I hope Chara eventually follows through on that casing that it promised], but implosion doing that feels really weird if he hasn't established reasoning for why Kagami is scum before now.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I don't see how my opinion on this is an "easy opinion"; it's somewhat nuanced, specifically that I don't think that it's alignment-indicative for Mulch but I can understand why some people would think it is, given that it could easily be alignment-indicative for a random player off the street.In post 2074, Kmd4390 wrote:Eddie, you asked me about scummy things Implosion has done. I really should dig deeper on him anyway because my gut is telling me he has a decent chance of being scum here. Far from my strongest scum read, but enough to be worth looking into. So...
-I hate to keep going back to this, but I didn't like the way he reacted to Mulch's whole mason claim thing. It seemed like he was trying to fake an easy opinion by shrugging it off as "well that's just Mulch". See where he said:
And Mulch answered with simply "I have?". It feels like he saw what happened and decided what stance to take without thinking critically about it. And then after that, he said that Mulch was after town cred. That makes no sense to me considering Mulch's line of reasoning was even if he (Mulch) flips scum, we should still treat Tora as confirmed town. It just doesn't feel like Implosion is actively sorting here.Implosion wrote:This is something he has explicitly stated he just does sometimes.
I don't think I ever said that Mulch is after town cred; what I said is that *if* he's scum, then that's his likely motivation. Basically it's just a thing that he's probably perfectly capable of faking for towncred, not necessarily that he is. I might have said that I leaned that way at some point but like, I really think that thing is just not worth spending time reading in to.
Mulch's line of reasoning being "even if I flip scum you should still treat tora as confirmed town" means absolutely jack shit. The moment Mulch flips scum, everything he's said of that nature is fully WIFOM and not worth trying to read deeply in to unless you know Mulch very very well. I don't understand why you put so much emphasis on that line, honestly. I've ignored it because it seems vacuous to me. It doesn't mitigate that Mulch could have been doing it for town cred.
I think you're misinterpreting my stance here slightly as thinking that Mulch most likely did it for towncred; my stance is simply that it's something completely within his ability to do as town and as scum, and that probabilistic arguments (i.e. "he's done it in X towngames and only Y scumgames") are inherently less reliable in team mafia because it's a natural time to break meta, and that therefore it's null.
I feel like I've made moves this game that had the potential to get on many peoples' nerves (mulch, chara, cabd maybe, kagami maybe, that one post about Firebringer). Feel free to keep pushing this against me if I don't commit to more solid reads as the game prolongs, but keep in mind we are a week into the game. My reads aren't that great yet (I actually had a pretty solid amount of confidence in them like 3-4 days ago and then Mulch muddied everything up again), and I tend to have relatively weaker (as in, less accurate) reads on d1 anyway, I think. Though that might not be true anymore thinking about it. I can point to certain games where I had a lot of confidence in a scumread on d1, but I can also point to games where I didn't that are similar to this (shaziro mafia i think fits that). And a lot of those games I act similarly to this, not really ruffling feathers actively because there aren't a ton of feathers I strongly want to ruffle.-This:
And I know he's not the only one guilty of it (see spiff), but it really felt like he wanted to fly under the radar for a while. And not just in the sense of activity. But more...just not stirring up controversy. Not getting his hands dirty. Not giving anyone a chance to say "man that was a really scummy push".Implosion wrote:But it's not really accurate to say that I'm scumreading anyone right now. I'm pretty reluctant these days to actually scumread anyone early d1 unless something sort of falls into place, which it does sometimes but not always. I mostly just accumulate townreads.
I'm happy to justify all the reasons why I have you as town at this point. It's not just the thing it was earlier. But it seems like mostly a waste of time since neither you nor me is under pressure right now.-His confidence in me being town just feels unnaturally strong. I mean, he did say it was because of my stance on teammates helping, so it's not like he hasn't given a reason but it seems like he's coasting on that as a reason and for me to be his "strongest townread", "unquestionably town", and "blatantly obvtown" over it just doesn't feel right. I feel weird having issues with town reads on me because it keeps coming up and I don't usually do that to this extent, but some of them just feel out of place and Implosion's fits that category just like Kagami's does. Cheet and maybe Spiff I think just have the right read for the wrong reasons. These two don't feel natural.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Kagami (re)read:
I see absolutely no reason to townread their first few posts (their entrance toward Spiffeh). I don't understand why anyone has said they do. Not a hard entrance to make as scum.
They basically throw out a few random reads here and there until they give a pseudo readslist (a scum shortlist or possibly people-they-need-to-sort shortlist) in 980. Their reads sort of progress from here, but a lot of it doesn't really make strict sense. It's not like, damningly scummy or anything. They give a read from Katsuki that Patrick is 100% town which I think could be easily faked and is completely unjustified. The only real substantive posting that Kagami is doing around this time is arguing with Kmd over what looks to me like semantics of the Mulch mason claim and the argument that they've had around it. And I think this is what Toranga is referring to when they mention it looking like Kagami was genuinely trying to sort Mulch but I don't see what in here looks like genuine sorting; most if it is sort of a flat logical argumentation that I don't think really justifies a scumread on Mulch. Like 1231 sounds kind of like it's saying a lot but it really isn't. It's just saying the same thing i did, basically that Mulch has plenty of motivation to do the thing as scum, but that isn't a good justification for him being scum. Also mentioned team makeup but meeh.
Then we get to post 1236 which is I think one of the first things that pinged me when I saw it and I'm pretty sure I mentioned this before but the probabilistic argument is just such an incredibly easy argument to make as scum. And then 1243 supplements this justification. I think (read: checked, and i am correct) at this point Mulch had already mentioned the "I was planning to pick a normal no matter what" thing. And there are responses to that (i.e., you can just claim Mulch is lying about wanting to pick a normal no matter what). But Kagami I think ignored it? Which is a bit... bad? Because it completely changes the probabilistic argument from Mulch-is-scum-70%-of-the-time to either Mulch is lying about this thing (which Kagami would have to justify) or Mulch-is-scum-if-and-only-if-they-got-a-scum-PM-in-a-normal which is only 36%. And Kagami ignores that very, very crucial facet of the argument which to me indicates disingenuous sorting. 1243 in general just feels very lazy; it's about the easiest thing in the WORLD to do as scum in a game where Mulch is town to say "Mulch is scum, idk about anyone else they all seem fine to me."
breaking this here for now for length-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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dude this is like.Kmd wrote:Implosion:
- Regardless, it doesn't make sense to suggest that he'd be after town cred. Whether you believe he actually is or that his scum motivation would be town cred IF he is scum, neither line of reasoning fits. The "whether I flip town or scum" line is important because it shows exactly what his motivation was: getting us to treat Tora as confirmed town. It serves no purpose to his own game as scum. It doesn't net him town cred. It just says "treat Tora as confirmed town". That's it.
a thing scum do to townies
it's called pocketing or buddying
the motivation exists
i might as well be calling you confirmed town right now with the strength of read I've given. Why aren't you townreading me?-
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