Team Mafia 2018: Inventions Mafia Day 4

[RadiantCowbells]

And please: don't keep acting like Mastina flipping town means that Chesskid gets lynched, because we both know that it doesn't.

Yeah he'll be lynched if she flips town for putting us through all of today for nothing...

No he won't. Who do you think dies when Mastina flips town?
If you can't lynch Chesskid with me, what chance do you think that you have without me?

Potentially two townies for the price of one! That's what it sounds like at least.

justjl,hdafk;jdsa[;lk

[RadiantCowbells]

Like: I don't think this is a bus but the first thing someone said about him was that he buses as scum. My stance here is that I start the same thing tomorrow, even if Mastina is actually scum. Which is why I want me and chesskid dealt with today. Mastina doesn't bring any resolution here and there is no way that Chesskid ever gets shot.

Its why I pulled off Hindu in the first place, this really does need resolution and that's not going to happen without a lynch or a hider.

wow it's almost like you spat in my face when i offered to take hider and clear up you vs chesskid by hiding chesskid and you wouldn't play ball???

oh well, gonna get a dead mastina for it anyway, so thanks for not negotiating or being compromising

If literally anyone but you took the hider I accepted it.

[RadiantCowbells]

We definitely aren't both town.

I'll give some fun popcorn to anyone who can pitch scum/scum but definitely not both town

I mean, I don't know what this thing by Ellibereth is. Regardless, to me, it's really hasty to auto-lynch you Day 2 if mastina flips town.

tada cheeky

[RadiantCowbells]

Your ego is blinding you again. We have a much greater chance of getting Chesskid lynched with the flip.

I disagree with you and if you stop and read the thread I think you will find that I am correct.
How does losing 2 people who will vote Chesskid help you lynch him, exactly?

Is it out of the question for you to vote Hinduragi, RC?

I would much rather commit to chesskid
regardless of hindus flip I don't know what to do tomorrow.

[RadiantCowbells]

For the record he said he was working with him, not that he townreads him because of it.

[RadiantCowbells]

And yeah basically: if Chesskid is town, where's the lineup of votes to get rid of him and pin it on me?
If Mastina is scum, why am I the only person who really seems to care if she lives or dies

[RadiantCowbells]

Like at this point I don't even really feel like I'm trying to read anyone

[RadiantCowbells]

I want chesskid to hide behind me.

[RadiantCowbells]

or were you saying ck3 gets hider

yes, that was what I was suggesting.

either we both die or I am confirmed town.

[RadiantCowbells]

I do not want to lynch Mastina at all but I absolutely support the other bit.

[RadiantCowbells]

I refuse to subject the rest of the game to a universe where you are confirmed as town, no matter how unlikely I think it is.

[RadiantCowbells]

I really don't see how I'm insufferable for wanting to be confirmed town in a game where I'm having massive difficulty pushing my reads.

[RadiantCowbells]

Srceenplay, can I get a proper readslist and an explanation of why you're still scumreading Mastina?

[RadiantCowbells]

@cheeky: What made you flip around on RC & co so suddenly? I think I asked this already but didnt get a respond

If you're asking to try to sort her I'm near 100% confident she's town.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that even if you think that she's scum her intentionally avoiding engaging with the present is a ridiculous thing for her to do.
Who is your scumteam?

[RadiantCowbells]

I am not picking and choosing meta at all?

I think that if she's town she would be catching up linearly like she is.
I think that if she's scum she would be catching up linearly like she is.

I don't think that there's anything alignment indicative about the fact that she's still on page 27.

[RadiantCowbells]

I have never implied that you were. Chesskid's read on Mastina is a magical fairyland, I understand why you're reading her the way you are. I just don't agree with it. I feel like largely you are taking her push on you very personally and conflating her being Mastina!Bad with scum but I do get it. Cheeky is doing whatever she's going to do but she's town, Chesskid's read on Mastina is a magical fairyland, and Srceenplay is to be decided.

At the very least I think that their scumteam makes sense

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean he's scum so.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why would he expect to get lynched right now?

[RadiantCowbells]

Because if he's scum he's presumably just claimed a cop guilty on a townie.

Pedit: none of those were hard stances.

Well yes that's true if he was going to actually get lynched when Mastina flips town.
But given BYF doesn't support it, Reck/Hindu won't, scumpartners that may or may not be in that group and the fact that Mastina and another person who scumread him are inevitably going to die why would he expect to?

[RadiantCowbells]

Have you not played enough games with me to know that that's not true?

[RadiantCowbells]

Have you not played enough games with me to know that that's not true?

I haven't played that much with town-you, actually.

I was actually talking about scum-me and my tendency to get away with pushing lynches like the Mastina one here game after game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I have an 100% record of faking guilties, besides the one where I was super drunk and don't actually remember doing it. I still fake guilties as scum, have them flip town, and walk away from it. There's this implicit assumption that people are making that mastina flips town and goodbye chesskid that has no basis in the reality of mafia.

[RadiantCowbells]

I really don't think it will help. Imo MS systematically assumes that people who are deathtunneling and pretending to be absolutely certain on a read are town.
It's one of the things I like about MU better that generally if you push scum wincon the whole game you get lynched for having done so.

Like the reasons given for chesskid town are basically 'this is how he is' and that's at best an argument in favour of null. There's no reason chesskid shouldn't behave like this as scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

If Mastina flips scum I am going to make sure whatever invention shows up gets used to clear or kill you then selfvote.

[RadiantCowbells]

S_S, who are you scumreading right now?

[RadiantCowbells]

(Meaning some permutation of lynching one and if they flip town then lynching those who the lynched person was sure were scum and those who were sure the lynched person was scum.)

To this end, would you be willing to vote Chesskid?

[RadiantCowbells]

That requires you to actually be town to matter.

[RadiantCowbells]

And frankly if Chesskid was town: why didn't he bring that out right at the beginning? There's literally no reason to hold that back: he didn't bring it up as a thing until momentum turned against him. Why would Chesskid's personality hold onto something like that as opposed to throwing literally every single thing they can think of at a person like he has been doing the rest of the game? Most of the stuff he says doesn't even make sense, but he skipped over a supposedly 100% tell to argue with me that Mastina was scum because she thinks her scum game is too good to get voted. That's bullshit.

[RadiantCowbells]

In post 2016, chesskid3 wrote:
I wasn't even gonna do this since I think it's kinda lame

I'm making assumptions about Chesskid's character but I find it flagrantly unbelievable that he has an iwin button and didn't use it until desperate.

Ok there is a ridiculous amount of content now so I think those arguing for or against the mastina lynch can stop and the rest of the players need to decide if they're into it or not. If we continue on the current trajectory the next however many days until deadline then we will end up lynching mastina ANYWAY to avoid a no lynch. Current discussion needs to shift to YES/NO mastina and sorting of other candidates. We need no further analysus content on mastina as she'll happily provide it herself as she catches up.

As long as all Chesskid is doing is telling people to lynch Mastina if I stop encouraging them to go the other way then Mastina lynch wins by default.
I think that there is a not unreasonable chance of me getting my Chesskid lynch and I'll fight for it.

Alternatively if you get Chesskid to fuck off for a day I can also stop pushing him for a day and sort the rest of the players.

[RadiantCowbells]

Alternatively if you get Chesskid to fuck off for a day I can also stop pushing him for a day and sort the rest of the players.

For those who are saying that it's RC AND CHESSKID ruining the thread, I want to point out I've said and implied this repeatedly throughout the game.
Cheeky, why don't you threaten to never support a Mastina lynch unless he fucks off for a day and lets the game play?

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah no I'm sorry Cheeky I get the sentiment, but I'm not ok with that because FMPOV I have caught scum and absolute worst case my flip confirms it so putting this on pause for a day if 8 people vote NO doesn't help.

It just doesn't go away and is a distraction every day.

Basically the worst thing for Chesskid is the pressure stopping because he's maintaining townreads through momentum.
As long as Mastina is the default lynch he doesn't have to worry about scumbuddies or associations and a lot of AI stuff is going to get buried here.
Like we just -can't- play the game effectively because of it and it's not at all an accident, and sure he does this as town but would he

really

be refusing to have both of us stop pushing back and forth on Mastina for a day? And even if you think he would, why wouldn't he as scum?

Like if he thinks that Mastina is such obvious scum why can't he just let people see that why does he have to shove it down everyone's throats

Like I have no read on S_S, I have no read on BYF, all I can really do right now is encourage them to vote Chesskid because I don't have the mental energy to devote to reading them because it's 12 hours a day of this shit. This has to stop and Mastina lynch does not stop it.

If you want an actual day phase the solution is to tell Chesskid if he doesn't stop then you'll clear Mastina.

[RadiantCowbells]

Cheeky, why don't you threaten to never support a Mastina lynch unless he fucks off for a day and lets the game play?

Because that obviously won't work. He still has 13 other players to preach to.

Then there's an obvious way to solve this issue and it's not by voting Mastina.

[RadiantCowbells]

I seriously have no idea what my reads on other players are. All of my reads are stale at this point.
I need time to sit and think about the game but I haven't had that so I'm basically starting over every time I come to the thread.

That situation is not liable to change without getting rid of Chesskid.

Also, given the comments made about your charms in the MU game and the fact that you were town, you should trust my townreads more.
If you think that Mastina is scum I would be open to a case but I don't think that I am the one who is wrong here.

Mastina I think it would solve a lot of the scum read on you when you start interacting in real time. I'm not saying don't catch up but is it possible that you try and do both? I've probably missed a quarter of the game now but I don't intend on wasting more of my time trying to catch up.

It's not alignment indicative, and even Reck admits that.
If you want Mastina to get properly caught up you need to solve the fact that 20 pages are being created a day.

[RadiantCowbells]

Silence won't be maintained unless you help me threaten chesskid with a lynch if he doesn't take thursday off.

[RadiantCowbells]

As a favor to Cheeky and to broker a one day peace treaty

UNVOTE:

[RadiantCowbells]

1821 is enough to make me not want to lynch Hindu today

[RadiantCowbells]

And no, that doesn't bother me in any way except that you think so highly of yourself as to then mention me and try to lynch me as if I'm a third party who isn't even here. If I haven't interacted with chesskid much, you've done the same to me.

I just want to say for the record that when I make pushes like that it's not because I necessarily want to immediately lynch you.
Any more than when I claimed that mastina solved the game. That's sort of just how I push people.
I feel like if you're town and we both stick around then we'll get there, I'm going to give you space for now.

[RadiantCowbells]

Keychain says for you to get well soon Mastina

[RadiantCowbells]

I am really uncomfortable with Something_Smart taking no stance whatsoever on the entirety of Myself/Mastina/Chesskid
Really don't like the progression on 1985-1987: says the argument doesn't make sense and complains about the placement but then implies that they're town for it?
also don't like their reaction to the three times thing, like I think that's objectively something that's worth being concerned about even if hindu's town
At the risk of breaking truce this is very easily a Chesskid partner just based on their interactions
I had to stop and go back because this is a really shitty post by GL

I don't remember specifics other than that his defense of me was sound and insightful.

Smart if you're town, it's super easy for scum to write sound and insightful defenses of you. Why is his defense something that can't come from scum!Hindu?

Oh, it definitely can. But it's a point in his favor.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's incredibly mundane and straightforward that scum can make up AI guilties and the way that GL 'baits' him into admitting that Ellibereth has faked guilties with it feels really strange. Like this entire conversation should go without saying but GL makes faking AI reads a huge gotcha which is ??

I don't remember specifics other than that his defense of me was sound and insightful.

Smart if you're town, it's super easy for scum to write sound and insightful defenses of you. Why is his defense something that can't come from scum!Hindu?

This is still really bad and reads as scum discrediting a valid townread. It's actually not easy for scum to be sound or insightful?

-BYF is town, I don’t see scum motive in his posting, doubt he would have taken a scum role PM, and if he did take a scum role PM he'd be being coached and not fumbling around like he has a few times here. Like in what world does Dunnstral give BYF a scum role and then leave him out to dry? I need much more from Hindu and Reck on the scumreads there

Can't put words to this but I don't like it.
But he's on chesskid so

[RadiantCowbells]

Kat and adenine are still town

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah I should fuck off and go to sleep so. Gnite anyone out there

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh and SS you said you had leanings on alignments in the three of us, what are they?

[RadiantCowbells]

the way that GL 'baits' him into admitting that Ellibereth has faked guilties with it feels really strange

In case you failed reading comprehension there were no faked guilties with it ever.


Im happy to let people talk for awhile but we arent lynching outside of me or my essentially cop guilty

You're missing the point

[RadiantCowbells]

Why don't you take the hider and hide behind her if you're so fucking sure she's scum?

[RadiantCowbells]

if we're not doing Creature I'm fine with Reck having the hider and hiding behind RC or whoever he wants. If he's elected, I would strongly prefer that he not actually make it clear to the thread who he's hiding behind. If he dies then RC is likely getting lynched on D2 anyway but if RC is town then I don't want scum getting a guaranteed free double kill. Reck it's absolutely better to hide behind some low key townread of yours to clear them and deal with RC/chesskid drama through lynches and day play, if RC is town then declaring that you're hiding behind him is easy double kill for scum.

When did reckoner ever express interest in hiding behind me except following a Mastina scumflip?

[RadiantCowbells]

I see Smart and Creature as likely mastina voters based on expressed scumreads in their ISOs, which gets the wagon up to six
Likely not mastina voters based on townreads presented in thread: Katyusha, Anenien, BYF
Hindu I can't tell, he keeps saying chess/RECK town but also that he's not feeling mastina scum, wants to look elsewhere.

Hindu - are you strictly opposed to mastina lynch today or will you compromise there? Take a hard yes/no stance on this please. Why aren't you sheeping your townreads onto the leading wagon?

So this means we need Primate or Errantparabola to show up and vote there, or some number of Katy/Anen/BYF/RC/myself to compromise on mastina. If we get to crunch time and no other lynch is possible then Mastina lynch is most likely outcome as it stands.

As opposed to where can you get votes, who do you actually want to get lynched today?
Also correct me if I'm wrong but you had Hindu in your scumpool, why is he the person you're trying to work out a compromise with?

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you think that Chesskid/Mastina is a bus?

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Guiltylion

I don't really want to talk about what I'm seeing right now but I think I would be willing to lynch this today

[RadiantCowbells]

disregard chesskids follow emperor commodus

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, that's fair, but why should he vote Mastina if he doesn't think that they're scum just because Chesskid and Reck say so?

[RadiantCowbells]

Here's a different concept: GL made the entire post talking about getting a compromise on Mastina, who according to his own reads he currently should townread since he is voting Chesskid and thinks that no one is bussing Mastina. He's also implicitly assuming no other wagons happen, but

if we're not doing Creature I'm fine with Reck having the hider and hiding behind RC or whoever he wants. If he's elected, I would strongly prefer that he not actually make it clear to the thread who he's hiding behind. If he dies then RC is likely getting lynched on D2 anyway but if RC is town then I don't want scum getting a guaranteed free double kill. Reck it's absolutely better to hide behind some low key townread of yours to clear them and deal with RC/chesskid drama through lynches and day play, if RC is town then declaring that you're hiding behind him is easy double kill for scum.

This doesn't really make sense in a universe following Mastina's townflip or Chesskid's scumflip, which are GL's two most likely possibilities. The whole 'if he dies then RC is getting lynched D2' with no given target should really be a scumclaim here. Like he's assuming that I am going to be a controversial slot overnight/tomorrow and I really can't read this as anything besides TMI on either Chesskid or Mastina's flips.

It also reeks of trying to set me up as a mislynch.

[RadiantCowbells]

because it's the leading wagon and chesskid has made it the central point of this day

like if BYF is his desired lynch he's not selling it to Chesskid/RECK very hard

p-edit: exactly

Fmpov either you believe that Hindu is too frustrated by the quality of the game to play it or you don't. I've gone back and forth.
But this doesn't even ask that question, it's just conflating Hindu refusing to do much of anything in the game with him not caring to push his reads.

If Hindu's scum, why wouldn't he be trying to sell a BYF lynch if he didn't want Mastina!scum to go through?
If he's not going to push BYF why is he neither pushing the counterwagon nor bussing?
And yeah people do play suboptimally but I don't actually see any specific scum motivation for this

[RadiantCowbells]

I do not buy you thinking that Reckoner hiding behind me is something that happens after Chesskid flips scum or Mastina flips town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like even when we brought those ideas up it was

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't buy that you believe that the plan would actually be for reck to hide behind me behind a mastina townflip
You're either like way overestimating the amount of people that scumread me or were expecting something to happen to hurt my standing.

its existence and effectiveness have been confirmed in completed games and there are many players in team mafia who can attest to this.

Therefore it carries the same weight as a cop guilty and needs to be treated as such by every player in this game.

Going to respond to this as if you're town because otherwise there's no point:
There's an implication attendant in these kinds of things that how you have played in the past regarding niche cases holds true in the future.
In the Postie spreadsheet case she determined my scum games 100% -1 game (pos result means I may or may not be scum, neg result means I am 100% town) accurately in 2015 with the data she collected, but then it failed to work in 2016. Speaking on a completely out of game basis here with no commentary on anyone's alignments, I don't buy the claimed efficacy of the tool nor of your personal reads if you are town given that you are claiming to scumread me.

If you believe in Mastina scum I am not stopping you from taking the hider and going behind her because at this point it would be the optimal way to resolve this but I have no intentions of allowing her to get lynched today.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like if this was as powerful as you say it was games would largely be being determined off of whether town has access to it or not.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually there's no point, I'm going to talk to Elli about it

[RadiantCowbells]

You're either like way overestimating the amount of people that scumread me or were expecting something to happen to hurt my standing.

I kinda think that from his POV he's expecting his townflip to hurt your standing...

I don't see why GL would be expecting to get lynched when he has only a single vote on him

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't see why GL would be expecting to get lynched when he has only a single vote on him

Did GL say that?

Okay so let me explain it

His first post seemed to be predicated around an EoD flip hurting my standing
I called him out on that
you said no, it makes sense because from his point of view if he gets lynched it'll hurt my standing
but that doesn't make sense chronologically

[RadiantCowbells]

The way I have phrased it or put it might be wrong but to me it feels like he's writing that post knowing that I'm town and wanting to gently steer town towards mislynching me. I think what I'm seeing there might be a lot more subtext than surface level but it's there.

And yes, I don't like the preponderance of setup spec, I don't like the way he was taking a census on Mastina voters, I don't like the way he was trying to bait out an obvious fact about Elli's tool. Like I think that Something_Smart is objectively the scummiest person in the game given their approach to the three big wagons but I'm not actually very enthusiastic about voting there and hitting scum whereas I have a very good feeling that this one does.

I still can't really imagine town coming up with the quote about Hinduragi making sound and insightful defences.

I wish I had the energy to do better right now but I'm mostly going off gut feelings, and that's usually a good sign for my read accuracy.

RC doesn't really suck

Aww this the nicest thing you've ever said to me

[RadiantCowbells]

I still can't really imagine town coming up with the quote about Hinduragi making sound and insightful defences.

There was only one defense that I called that, and it was of the one player I know to be town, so I know it was sound. And it was a hell of a lot deeper than most people scumreading me for playstyle things, so it was comparatively insightful.

What part of that logic does not make sense?

You're missing my point.

I think that GuiltyLion dismissing a defense that you found sound and insightful because it's 'easy to defend town and be sound and insightful' ridiculous

[RadiantCowbells]

When I say that I think you're objectively the scummiest I don't mean that you're the person I scumread the most, if that makes sense?
I'm talking OBJECTIVE details about the game, ie read progressions, overall ignoring the 3 of us, etc.

I don't actually think you're scum and I think that if I'm right on GL you are probably spewed town

[RadiantCowbells]

And yeah sorry if I'm not super clear
want to help me build a snowman and/or wagon?

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that it would be very selfish of me to continue trying to lynch chesskid at this point, as much as I want to

[RadiantCowbells]

I also think that this lynch gives me a lot of information about both mastina's and chesskid's alignments

[RadiantCowbells]

I do not want to try to push a lynch on Chesskid right now.
I think that there's pushing my wincondition, which suggests that lynching in the pool is right, and allowing everyone to play/enjoy the game.
I would like the hider to be used to deal with Mastina/Chesskid and the lynch be used on someone who I think is scum outside of the pair.

By the same token, it's probably optimal for whoever is scum in that group to try and push for a lynch outside it.

I understand why you would feel this way but I do not think that continuing a brutal prolonged power struggle for the lynch helps anyone

Well yes, that's what I was getting at.

I have only been trying to push the lynch outside of the group for less than a day and I have been doing so because several players, CheekyTeeky, Hinduragi, Reckoner, Primate, Mastina, and probably everyone else is not enjoying the game because of the ongoing power struggle between me and chesskid.

I am not attempting to give either Mastina or myself an out: I am 100% requiring that the hider be used on one of the three of us.

But I am not willing to ruin the game for everyone to push a lynch like Chesskid is.

[RadiantCowbells]

S_S please look back at the point at which my enthusiasm for the chesskid lynch died.
If your friends said they hated you because of a lynch you were pushing you would derail too.
If I could press a button and lynch Chesskid I would do that but there's a price there that I am not willing to pay.

[RadiantCowbells]

Especially given that Chesskid has taken every opportunity to try to use my attempt to be a decent human being as evidence that I am scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

OK I've had enough of this fucking bullshit. FUCK RC AND CHESSKID. FUCK THIS GAME.

elect: CheekyTeeky

VOTE: Something_Smart

Go fuck yourselves.

I'm presuming other people have played mafia with friends enough to know how a post like this would effect them.

It's still early game, I am directly responding to people to keep the game moving. And do I seem like a player that needs to worry about having enough content?

I think my playstyle confuses a lot of people. I am a reaction test player who likes to keep the game interesting as well as find scum.

Can I ask you to trust me on GL here

[RadiantCowbells]

I am not: I am trying to make sure S_S understand that I am not avoiding pushing on Chesskid because I am scared of his flip, like he seems to think.

[RadiantCowbells]

Cheeky I understand you feel I've been anti town but lynching outside of a 1v1 is the most anti town thing possible

What's so anti-town about using the PR to avoid another 50 pages of fighting?

No one is advocating just letting this continue, least of all me. I've even conceded that I am fine with the hider being used on Mastina since Reckoner won't be alive to defend you if scum go for the double kill. But what you are doing is not okay regardless of your alignment.

Whatever you perceive your win condition to be at some point your win condition stops mattering and I don't appreciate the fact that in mafia the advantage typically tends to go to the person who has absolutely no qualms about ignoring that fact.

And Cheeky I disagree strongly with his case on you but I do not think that it makes him scum and I think you're having a playstyle conflict.

[RadiantCowbells]

how is doing anything today besides hammering reck election ansdlynching one of us? This chaos killa momentum and participation

The chaos isn't killing momentum and participation: you are.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Chesskid

Adenine sheep me here if you're town please.

[RadiantCowbells]

If there were very little time, eg. 1 day left, I'd join either wagon.
Why do you think Chesskid is the best possible lynch?

Because he's forcing the game to come down to a choice between those two possible lynches.
If there's enough support that backs lynching GL or Srceenplay and putting the hider on 1/2 of Chess/Mastina I would be fine with that as well.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think that there's anyone who believes that.

[RadiantCowbells]

You know you sound like everyone who thought Deep Blue was going to get crushed, or Watson couldn't play Jeopardy, or AlphaGo was going to get crushed, etc etc yes?

Are all the other players here agree that we should trust a programme instead of getting reads in the conventional way? If so, I'll step back.

Enough have confirmed that this particular program works.

I also really like the point S_S raised that resolving this ASAP is clearly beneficial to town, and I have, for almost 600 points now been on the exact same page, while RC bounces around reactively etcetcetc.

So I'm really not sure how it's a difficult decision voting mastina vs voting me but it doesn't much matter so

The intended meaning of this post is "RC is scum because he cared that his behaviour was upsetting people and I am town because I don't."

[RadiantCowbells]

What do you think of Cheeky?

Cheeky is town I am 100% sure. I believe that you and Kat are town as well but I need more time and space on that which I don't have.

Isn't it strange how eagerly Cheeky voted for Chesskid in the middle of a fight with me (whom she, as far as I know, scumreads)?

No, it's not, given that we've been discussing for a while now how we need to do something about him.

There's a lot of things you're just turning a blind eye to because you want to be the authority on how to play mafia.

You've turned a blind eye to literally the entire game because you want to be the authority on how to play mafia.
In a situation where Mastina!scum has no way out, no less.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm willing to entertain that you're town, I'm even willing to entertain that you're right. But I'm not lynching Mastina without a result on her.

Well, that, and making sure that RC!scum doesn't have a way out either after devoting 65 pages to the SAVE MASTINA crusade

[RadiantCowbells]

I found one where he used it as town but it wasn't specifically about ruining a GAME

viewtopic.php?p=9469291#p9469291
RadiantCowbells (Town Citizen), died N3

Sure, I do not often feel like people are ruining the game in my town games because as town I am usually a strong mediator.

Rather than arguing statistical likeliness in a vacuum you need to argue I would not be using this phrase as town. Given that I am not the only one who has said the exact same thing to you, you'd have to be incredibly dense to think that it's related to my alignment.

[RadiantCowbells]

And frankly that is exactly my problem with Elli's tool and the whole concept of statistical analysis as a tool to determine alignments.

[RadiantCowbells]

Lmfao this is not from the engine obviously

For the record were you not privy to Elli's attempt to run the engine on me?

[RadiantCowbells]

That's not going to happen, but if I flip scum or Mastina flips town you are released from any further obligations

that's my shit.

[RadiantCowbells]

that ruined my game

[RadiantCowbells]

GuiltyLion, CheekyTeeky, RadiantCowbells

RC scumreading GL and me while theyre both voting me is hilarious btw.

If I have to lynch one of you and mastina I lynch you always.

I believe I did comment that I was interested in seeing gl flip before trying to sort you.

[RadiantCowbells]

EP can you walk me through your read on me?

[RadiantCowbells]

[RadiantCowbells]

Much love Kat.

[RadiantCowbells]

[RadiantCowbells]

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you think that if I was a sexy boat captain elli would have been able to get tells on me?

[RadiantCowbells]

and then we take our clothes off

[RadiantCowbells]

Postie has already volunteered to dive the tell if you out it and determine if it holds any validity.

[RadiantCowbells]

you said that ellibereth doesn't out tells but he made a spectacle of mulch's tendency to call people a game ruiner

CUT CUT THATS A WRAP FOLKS, BRILLIANT SHOW BRILLIANT SHOW.

[RadiantCowbells]

meanwhile rc

[RadiantCowbells]

given how game relevant it is I would be flagrantly shocked if ellibereth would not give you permission to out whatever tell you have.

[RadiantCowbells]

I townread Mastina and I believe I have good reasons to do so and what Chesskid has given in terms of reasons so far has been objectively shit.
If he has a magic tell here, on Mastina no less who is objectively not a player Elli should be scared of as scum, he can out it.

[RadiantCowbells]

I expect a lot of flak postgame regardless of anyone's alignments and I accept getting lynched if Mastina is in fact scum but I would have absolutely no regrets about what I've done.
I think that Mastina has been objectively out of her scum range. I have asked everyone who thinks that she is scum to actually give me reasons and I have got nothing.

What I do have is a player who is not used to being told no by people who came up with a magic 100% scumread tell and started screaming about a guilty when they couldn't get the wagon going.
And as a matter of principle that's not something I am willing to be a party to. Actions should have consequences and I doubt there'll be a lot of games where Chesskid will actually face any.
At the risk of being called out for preparing for his town flip, whether he is scum or town has been immaterial to me for a long time, I'm just not okay with his play.

I am the poster child of 'welp im rc' and this game is many notches below what I would ever stoop to.

[RadiantCowbells]

Reck, you probably want to skip this if you hate Mastina's posts so much.

As it happens I did my own research and Elli's tool does appear to have a solid success rate. Noting that that is used by Eli and I consider Chesskid an unreliable narrator at this point. The idea that he would actually refuse to have chesskid give out this tell here in a situation where it's literally been the determining factor of a high profile game feels wrong. I cannot say whether anyone else on his team has been using tool results, but you can check that for yourself. To me the statistical probability that a tool relevant result popped up in Mastina's first eight posts in one game and X, where X is the other relevant results that have popped up over five games is abysmal. That to me is an extraordinary claim and it requires evidence. And Chesskid claims to not be so arrogant as to fakeclaim a result like this, but I think even a cursory effort to understand his personality suggests otherwise.

Unrelated to that point is the fact that I think the entire concept undermines the game of mafia. I believe that I can stay ahead of it because I systematically rotate through different metas and make conscious decisions to approach different games differently in ways that most people don't. But this has the potential to get really ahead of itself and if this advances to a certain point I think that the entire game of mafia is at stake. When you get a program that gets really sophisticated it's going to measure everything. Posting frequency, words per post, structure of posts, frequency of contractions, whatever, not just the content like Ellibereth's does. And I think these are going to be both infinitely more accurate and infinitely more difficult to deceive. I have been told that I can largely fool Elli for now but eventually as more and more things get tracked there isn't going to be any way around it. And even if I can never be caught via machine, when 8/13 of the game can be all of a sudden it doesn't matter and any townie who can't be locked town becomes a liability to the team they're on. It's the same reason I abhor people who deliberately only tryhard as one alignment, at some point it becomes basically trust telling to me. I have to go to ridiculously stupid lengths to regulate my self meta to be able to even play games as town. Surprise to everyone: I don't freak omgus because that's my personality, I do it because with the extremely high barrier to townreading me if people weren't afraid to vote me I would get lynched an incredible amount. And then you have people like, say, Creature whom are deterministically publicly flipped day 1, at the cost of people who roll scum with him being basically fucked if his survival matters. Now imagine mafiascum when it gets to a point where, say, 3/13 players in any game are going to have their alignments determined by third party programs. All of a sudden you have three Creatures on a team and the entire experience of mafia is largely cheapened for it. Move forward a few months of revisions and you're up to 5/13 and only two town need to be caught by actual players. Eventually the meta of scum comes down to getting fake innos on you from these tools, but incredibly few players will take scum seriously enough to rigorously self manage not just in the way I already do but to an extent that I would find incredibly daunting. And those who are capable of that, everyone will know that they are capable of that, and they will become policy lynch worthy. In a sense it just extends the game of mafia because fundamentally you can fool people or you can fool machines, but I think fooling machines will eventually become much much harder to the point that there might not be much of a point in even playing text mafia. And I love this game. But I don't love this particular game and the future I see of everyone throwing tool guilties around like chesskid breaks my heart.

I think that as a site we need to realize this has the potential to go somewhere we really, really don't want it to go, and should start thinking about what this actually means for the game now.

[RadiantCowbells]

And Cheeky if you would consider voting me because of my townread on Mastina being wrong or because Chesskid is calling me scum that makes me sad.

[RadiantCowbells]

And Cheeky if you would consider voting me because of my townread on Mastina being wrong or because Chesskid is calling me scum that makes me sad.

We can deal with that when it comes to it. Why are you ignoring Aneninen?

Because I think that both of you are town and don't really have the heart to tell you both to fuck off and work together right now.

[RadiantCowbells]

Adenine is the kind of person who is rigorous about progressions. He's kind of like Thor in that sense.
He sees a lot of stuff as not alignment indicative, evidenced by the scumread on Hindu who is objectively scummy as fuck but in terms of emotional content there's good reasons to townread him.
Everything that makes you towny is something that he does not put stock in or sees, and you freaking out at him for scumreading you when he feels your progressions are scummy, justifiedly so, sets him at you.

I am having trouble placing him as locktown simply because scum has to be somewhere and there's so many people that I find ridiculously unlikely to be scum, but I think that largely you are scumreading him because you play the game on two separate wavelengths and the same works for him.

[RadiantCowbells]

And Cheeky if you would consider voting me because of my townread on Mastina being wrong or because Chesskid is calling me scum that makes me sad.

We can deal with that when it comes to it. Why are you ignoring Aneninen?

Because I think that both of you are town and don't really have the heart to tell you both to fuck off and work together right now.

Pft you had the heart to tell me about other players so really this is a load of crap and why I'm struggling to get a locktown read on you.

The simple answer is that I just couldn't.
I can force myself to produce content but if I force myself to produce content.
There's a reason that I stall days as long as I can and that I go dormant for long periods. Sometimes I just don't want to or can't start explaining reads.
My mind isn't wired to be in work mode 24/7 and having been forced to go toe to toe with Chesskid for days on end was incredibly exhausting.
I could not have given you a good answer to that question when you first asked it, besides to say fuck off. I needed time for it to sit in my head and for me to get my energy back.
I don't actually know what in my head causes me to be able to give reads on one player while being completely unable to wrap my head around another, but it's a thing.
If you either do not believe or do not understand the answer I'm giving you, I would like you to go read some of my recent town games, such as Organization XIII.
Failing that, I want you to query your team on how often I choose to ignore questions or completely avoid attempting to gamesolve for substantial periods.
This is not accidental, this is just how I play the game. I chose to wait until a period like now when my head is clear.

[RadiantCowbells]

Cheeky

. I'm not misrepresenting you. But let's assume for a split second that I'm misinterpreting you. Since I have to work meanwhile, I can't promise that I'll re-ISO you today. So, those who are townreading her could point it out for me what towntells I haven't found (or misinterpreted).

You're 100% misrepping me. There's zero assumption needed.

Please point out where you feel that he is misrepresenting you so I can either mediate this or determine that he is actually misrepping you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Cheeky

. I'm not misrepresenting you. But let's assume for a split second that I'm misinterpreting you. Since I have to work meanwhile, I can't promise that I'll re-ISO you today. So, those who are townreading her could point it out for me what towntells I haven't found (or misinterpreted).

And on top of everything I've already said this bleeds town to me. I basically give him a license to continue scumreading you and his approach is to try to see if he might be missing anything.
Like this feels ridiculously town both on a rational level and in terms of the emotion I feel in this post. Adenine is town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually I have not said that much about Adenine.
As it happens my townread largely comes down to I know his scum game and this is not it, but
Really it's an intangible thing but I know his shtick really well and I can feel it when he's forcing it.
You might as an outsider feel like he is forced because you don't have context for it but if you meta him you maybe able to see what I see.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you don't trust my alignment this won't be of much use to you but read this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

So to tackle this systematically:

33 and 48 are true. They do not make you scum, but I think you can agree that they're true and it comes down to Adenine scumreading lack of what he sees as content.
I agree with you that 42-74 actually do line up: from my point of view the progression is rather clear that you were concerned at the start. You can be worried about that.
156 I mean. I can understand why he would say it's not super high on content. Adenine expects clear, detailed read progressions and cases and there are none.
166 in my opinion he misinterpreted the emotional posting. Clearly he did not understand the context of the post and thought that this was a serious post, and since he feels you haven't scumhunted, well.
(I disagree you haven't scumhunted, but that doesn't change Adenine's read.)
198 I agree with him that it is pigeon poop. When I say I play like Chesskid I am actually lying because I largely don't play like him now. I used to, back in 2015-2016 when I controlled towns with brute force.
I also think that I have made many similar posts in this game and given that you are not townreading me, well. Anyway.
210 you haven't actually explained your progression on GL and that's what Adenine is looking for and not seeing in his ISO, so he's calling you scum.
243 I mean I think this is really dumb by him but yes he's taking you very literally and thinks you shouldn't actually be worried about getting NKed.
406 yes you gave no cases in two votes and to adenine that's scummy.
428 is really dumb but yeah I can buy that he sees it and thinks its relevant.
473 yes it's true you jumped on that bandwagon and didn't give reasons, and to adenine that's scummy.
517 I don't you as worried at all, so I just disagree there.
600-603 yes you didn't give reasons for a chesskid lynch. again, I don't think this makes you scum but I think you should be able to see the pattern here for what Adenine is looking for.

2168 is just dumb and I don't really have anything to say about it.

2175 I see genuine concern that scum are trying to set him up as a mislynch.
Focusing entirely on your read progressions, do you not think it's justified for him to be sketched out by you suddenly suggesting him as a wagon and saying no chance?

I don't understand 2718.

Let's ignore the fact that I'm voting for another scumread of mine.

Also, why have you summoned RC to this post? Can't you cope with the situation alone?

Do you agree with me that if he thinks that you're scum, it's reasonable of him to get angsty that, from his point of view, you're using me as a human shield in much the way that I am shielding him from you now?

Cheeky,
let me get it. You don't have a read on Mastina nor Chesskid. Your vote is on Chesskid. And you suggest Mastina getting policy lynched if she doesn't catch up. And you call her a spammer.
I can't see a town mindset behind this.
Could anyone who's townreading her explain me why?

From the perspective of Adenine focused on reads yes it is scummy that you have no reads on the major wagons, are voting one while suggesting a policy lynch on another and calling them a spammer. I think that your position here is actually objectively scummy if you ignore the rest of the game.



Like stop for a second and read Adenine's posts. They're almost all point proof comment style reactions to content in thread.
That is what he is looking for and that is not at all what your ISO is and he scumreads you because he doesn't see where your progressions on things are.
While I think it's somewhat short sighted of him to focus on that arena of the game to the extent that he does, I respect his play and believe that this is his town game.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think you've missed my point: it is not about your flow it's about the fact that you haven't clearly explained it.
Adenine expects you, whenever your reads change, to have a post where you take something in the thread and say this made me think X and that caused me to change my read on that person in Y direction.
You have almost no points in your ISO where you clearly demarcate okay this happened and it made me change my read in Y way. You just vote people in reaction to the thread.
I do think it's possible to piece together what your thought process is reading the game as a whole but Adenine would still scumread it without explanation and he's a player who goes by ISOs anyway.

I don't think he isn't interacting with the game any differently that he always would as Adenine.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like he does not care about your flow he isn't going to try to read into your flow if you haven't explained it that is scummy to him and he is going to vote you for it.

[RadiantCowbells]

I understand that. I am in a significant portion the same boat, most of the reason I've been staying up so late is so that I can actually get stuff done while Chesskid's in bed.
Like the only points in the game where I feel like there has been actual town progress have been while Chesskid has been in bed and other people have been online with reads.
That's why I think the best play here has always been to just get rid of Chesskid regardless of his alignment.

RC, were there questions in your post? I have taken a look at it but I haven't read it thoroughly. I'm working meanwhile.

No, you've been town to me this whole gaem. I'm just trying to help bridge the gap between you and Cheeky.
I am going to leave it to others to explain to you why she's town though.

[RadiantCowbells]

All games have exactly 12 town aligned players and 3 mafia aligned players. All scumteams will have daytalk.

I mean I have scumreads that aren't Chesskid. I just can't push them because of Chesskid.
I think that the issue is people are being incredibly dense when it comes to associations. Everyone is generally treating the game like scum are playing 0 dimensionally.
Regardless of whether either of Mastina/Chesskid are scum, this is Team Mafia and scum are doing relatively smart things and aren't going to be blatantly associated on day 1.
The correct move today is to pick someone who is just generally scummy and ignore who they are potentially scum with, then set a hider on one of Mastina/Chesskid and lynch as appropriate.
Failing that, it's to lynch Chesskid.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also, given that I way overplayed my hand right here, if the hider is being used defensively it's going to me.

Elect: Reckoner

What if we have him Hide behind Mastina?

I have no objections to this.

[RadiantCowbells]

Let's be completely sure because if we're lynching Chesskid regardless of flip we're hiding defensively. Please unvote reck.

Jeepers. Derp. I read that too so lolme. Please scum read me for that post. It's time for bed.

Mind unvoting reck?

[RadiantCowbells]

Well if you don't trust me I understand that given I've been in either troll or frustrated mode the entire game.
Don't vote creature either though I just want to come to a consensus on what the plan is.

[RadiantCowbells]

cheeky4president

[RadiantCowbells]

Because i felt like a lot of his fire didnt have fuel.

Two things I have to say to this.

1) I would appreciate that you either get someone else to or personally meta dive my play this year. It is has not been my playstyle for a long time to pick loud 1v1s because I no longer have the consistent energy or strength of will to win them. I understand why you say that fighting Chesskid is something I'd do as scum because your memories of my scum play are largely based on my play in 2015-2016 but this is not accurate. If you search my games you will find both that I have said this before and that it is a truism if you look through all the games that I've played. The only incident when I did anything similar to this was versus Prism in a newbie game and it wasn't even close to an intentional part of my strategy.

2) My fire generally does not have fuel right now. I wasn't even going to play team mafia until people pressured me into it. Mastina at some point in this thread references a post in the scum thread of The Mod is Mafia where I basically said that I just can't play the same way that I used to. I was lynched in both of my last two games as scum on this site. While this doesn't tell the full story I fundamentally cannot get my heart into playing scum anymore. My success largely isn't based off of my ability to power play or towntell anymore as much as it is my knowledge.

Everything just FITS with RadiantCowbells as town. And I happen to also know that RadiantCowbells's skills as scum have rusted. In his own words, he's "lost something [he'll] never get back". His scumplay has deteriorated. If this were his fucking scumplay. Then he fucking got the thing he thought he lost back, because it's livid, it's passionate, it's energetic and vindictive in a way that simply can't come from scum.

My town play has suffered a hit as well but nowhere near to the extent of my scum play: if you think at some point that I was 100% town then I'm town, because I am not currently able to push those buttons in the way that I used to. There's a reason I'm bleeding self meta like crazy and it's not because I'm trying to stay on top of the meta anymore. 2017 was my last year.

don't screw the pooch

but yeah I think I've lost something in mafia that I'm not getting back.

is the post being referenced, but if you want to track me through that scum PT you'll get a better perspective on where I'm at right now.

[RadiantCowbells]

[RadiantCowbells]

a wallpost a day keeps the bad hombres away

[RadiantCowbells]

If Chess and Mastina are both town I take negative responsibility for that situation because I've gone out of my way to try to minimize the damage that that situation would do.
Don't pin any of this on me

[RadiantCowbells]

If Chess and Mastina are both town I take negative responsibility for that situation because I've gone out of my way to try to minimize the damage that that situation would do.
Don't pin any of this on me

You literally fuelled the spamfest. If you hsd stopped responding to Chess after you don't made your points into of whatever it was then it wouldn't have happened, or it wouldn't have been as bad.

I don't think this is at all a fair characterization of anything. Assuming they're both town, was I supposed to just let Chesskid spam the thread into lynching Mastina?
What if it was you getting tunneled like crazy, would you not expect me to do the same for you?

[RadiantCowbells]

why can't we lynch hindu and let me hide behind mastina

my team is increasingly more & more sure that mastina/hindu just makes so much fucking sense

if im right on mastina then BONUS POINTS i dont have to come home and consider putting a gun in my mouth every time i have to check this game

and if im wrong then BONUS POINTS i dont have to worry about screaming people down about mastina scum anymore.

we're at almost 100 pages on day 1. fuck this game.

If you agree to be instantly policy lynched if you do not hide behind Mastina I will go for this.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Hinduragi

Elect: Reckoner

[RadiantCowbells]

Reckoner if mastina is not scum you agree that Chesskid is the lynch 100% of the time?

[RadiantCowbells]

yes but we know mastina is scum in this scenario so you're literally saying no to my plan because you think there's anything more than a .0000002% chance of Hindu/Mastina/RC scumteam?

Reck pls we're so close

With how little respect you have for my scumgame to think that this is it you should be a lot more worried about other people in this lobby.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'd rather lynch Aneninen.

no please.

what about guiltylion?

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually if someone hides behind me we are never lynching Mastina no matter what

[RadiantCowbells]

That doesn't matter it still confirms Mastina as scum and breaks the game open

How does both of you dying and flipping town still confirm mastina scum?

Program that has been agreed to be sheeped and has a perfect history. The only thing keeping mastina alive is my alignment isn't confirmed.

So if RC and I both die and I flip town Mastina is confirmed scum.

Oh go fuck yourself

You're town and want to hide on me go ahead but I will make 100% sure no one votes for mastina for the rest of the game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Unless we lynch mastina and give chesskid hider to sort out RC.

Nope, not happening.
If Chesskid's getting hider I'm choosing the lynch.

[RadiantCowbells]

You guys can lynch the pair of us if Mastina is scum but there's no way in hell you're lynching Mastina after spending a hider to flip me.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'll hammer if we can get it that high, we need to elect someone before hand. Would prefer Mastina because her filp would determine where I hide.

The implication here is that you still don't think that I'm town?

[RadiantCowbells]

Cheeky, can you actually go back and read some of my scum games on my wiki?

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, but I really don't think that you know what you're looking for.

[RadiantCowbells]

Guys I'm not hammering Hindu either, I think he's town.

And I think Adenine and Mastina are town, so.

[RadiantCowbells]

Chesskid is tunneling on Mastina, I think mastina is town, those are the two wagons
I think chesskid could be scum but I am not 100% convinced and would rather lynch someone else and use the hider to sort the pair of them

besides them I think that scum is somewhere in {GL, SS, Hindu, Srceenplay}
think that EP is not 100% town but he's leaning there
katyusha I actually don't know right now but I will know when I interact with her more

pretty sure mastina/adenine/cheeky/reckoner town

[RadiantCowbells]

there's also hindu when me and reck tried to work out a compromise but now reck is trying to lynch mastina again so probably back to chesskid.

[RadiantCowbells]

if I give you a case on srceenplay or GL is it something you'd seriously consider?

[RadiantCowbells]

Get GL or Srceenplay to L-2 and I will make sure that you end up with the hider at EoD

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay Hindu I'll get off you if you vote GL with me.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Guiltylion

If this is a thing that can happen I'll get a more coherent case out

[RadiantCowbells]

Only a famous death will do.

[RadiantCowbells]

But these senators scheme, squabble and flatter and deceive. Maximus we must save Rome from the politicians, my friend.

[RadiantCowbells]

For the record if you think Reck is scum then Mastina is probably town so you should stick with the current vote on GL.

[RadiantCowbells]

Hindu I would really like to see a GL lynch today
if you think that Reckoner is scum then having him hide behind Mastina is self resolving because if Mastina ends up confirmed town she will powerlynch him.

[RadiantCowbells]

- keely did an iso dive and said hindu is way more verbose as scum

Did you mean town?

I post more as town but with smaller posts in a stream-of-consciousness kind of thing

Don't know what it's worth to hear my meta coming from me but it's the truth

@ck: I don't know what you mean. I'm just kind of giving my thoughts on the game before I'm gone for the weekend

Would you mind leaving your vote on GuiltyLion over the weekend?

[RadiantCowbells]

But your thoughts are coming from a bad place and you're just wrong town

Says the person who has called me scum at least 100 times by this point

[RadiantCowbells]

He's self resolving if we give him hider and put him on Mastina and it also resolves Chesskid

thank you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature I take back everything I said about you being a shitty nightkill if you vote with me here.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

I love you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Hindu thats a good post u should stick to that.


Also ELECT NEEDS TO BE LOCKED IN BEFORE WAGON CONTINUES TO GROW

there's 3 people on this wagon

[RadiantCowbells]

Hi BYF!

Are you interested in lynching Guiltylion?

[RadiantCowbells]

that swap from "RECK IS SO TOWN" to "this is reckscum"

real scum btw

For the record he used the swap from reck is town to reckscum to justify unvoting GL right after giving it support.
If you think that Hindu is scum then that should not preclude you from thinking that GL is scum as well.

[RadiantCowbells]

Minicase

Guiltylion's iso has a lot of asking questions and not really following up on them, like he doesn't really go anywhere until the chesskid wagon he stays very off to the side,.
Don't like the way he talked about me, I stand by having the same feelings that Hindu did
Really feel like him hyping me up as controversial didn't fit the atmosphere of the thread at all given that only chesskid thought I was scum
He took 5 questions to pry out of Chesskid the fact that you can make up elli-tell guilties as scum which seems pretty self evident
completely discrediting the Hindu townread on Something_Smart by saying that scum can make insightful and sound defenses feels not!town
Generally had a bad feeling about him the whole game and think this is a good lynch

[RadiantCowbells]

I just want to lynch someone that is conclusively in my scumpool and this is my highest scum equity read atm.

[RadiantCowbells]

Cheeky and Hindu are both on the wagon, which is gross.

Cheeky isn't scum in any universe and Hindu has made moves that could easily be scum trying to look like they supported it and bailing out.
Neither of these things should hurt your enthusiasm for the wagon.

[RadiantCowbells]

is it wrong that I have watched the scumastina video like thirty times in a row

[RadiantCowbells]

let's hammer reck

[RadiantCowbells]

Reck, how sure are you that Hindu is actually scum?

[RadiantCowbells]

I really do want this GL lynch so I'm sticking to it but I'm asking since if you're town you're probably dead either way tonight

[RadiantCowbells]

yeah i mean im going on you RC so like

i dont die if i get shot, but if you do, we're both dead?

then chesskid has to find something else to rage against

idk like it's a shitshoot at this point. and honestly this game is so miserable i wouldnt mind being dead so *shrug*

if you go on me that doesn't resolve you vs hindu or chesskid vs mastina

[RadiantCowbells]

elect:Cheeky

Talk to me about this?

[RadiantCowbells]

Reck if you're not going to hide behind Mastina I'm not giving you the hider.
This really has to be resolved and we both agree on that, why are you giving in to chesskid when you've said that you townread me? Particularly given the Mastina situation.

If you don't think that Mastina's scum then why do you think that I am?

[RadiantCowbells]

Reckoner do you actually think that I'm scum?

[RadiantCowbells]

I have literally zero desire to elect cheeky and have her hide behind someone towny and be left with chesskid and mastina alive tomorrow.
Reck can you just vote GL, agree to hide behind Mastina, and let me strongarm this through and ignore anything chesskid does?

[RadiantCowbells]

elect:Cheeky

Talk to me about this?

I question wasn’t answered.
I didn’t like reck indifference feeling in his post.

I do see what you're seeing, I'm not sure it's scum, and if it is scum then he has to inno Mastina who will powerlynch him. this is self resolving, just elect him.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also I am really sorry to anyone who is having their first game with me now, this isn't at all representative of what I'm like and the early game got completely out of hand.

[RadiantCowbells]

-

[RadiantCowbells]

Can I seriously advocate we hammer reck for hider and GL for scum before Chesskid comes back on so he doesn't throw another tirade and add another couple hundred posts to the thread?

[RadiantCowbells]

Srceenplay

Kat and adenine come on late I am going to get them to hammer this tonight

just vote please.

[RadiantCowbells]

And GL I am really sorry if you're town but I think that you're scum and this day needs resolution for the sake of everyones' sanities.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay GL. If you're town, show me that.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, I will only derail GL if I think that he is more likely to be town than Mastina. Deal?

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay if that's how you feel let's just do Guilty.

[RadiantCowbells]

Guiltylion instead of doing whatever you're doing can you just give a readslist with some reasons
for the record I'm not a fan of 2326 so I'm happy with this

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Hinduragi

Err?

[RadiantCowbells]

Guiltylion instead of doing whatever you're doing can you just give a readslist with some reasons

point me to your reasoned readslist first

you're likely to get lynched, I'm not, everyone in this game knows what my reads are on generally everyone.
Why are you turning it around on me when I'm trying to give you the opportunity to share your reads before you get lynched?

like in what universe is this a pro-town thing to do, encourage a hammer as quickly as possible on a wagon that just sprung up in half a day? "You guys hate how much that dude chesskid spams, right?!? Wanna hammer an objectively weak lynch on a player who hasn't been able to post much today?"

This like very likely comes from scum

[RadiantCowbells]

Guiltylion instead of doing whatever you're doing can you just give a readslist with some reasons

point me to your reasoned readslist first

BYF how is this a town post?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I was planning to just say that whatever he was posting was scummy and that we should quicklynch him for it but these have actually been some really shitty posts

[RadiantCowbells]

Firstly, this thing on GuiltyLion is the precursor of an apathy wagon if I've ever seen it. No thanks.
Hinduragi is still a scumbag.
2636 is a townpost. 2639 is pretty towny. Like, I kinda felt the same way in the back of my mind, I just voted for apathy and to get him to speak.

I strongly disagree with you and I feel a lot surer of my read from his recent posting.

[RadiantCowbells]

Uh, do they? Just in the span of a day you said you didn't want to vote Hindu 2048, jumped in and defended him against my question I asked towards him 2111 before he even came to the thread, voted him 2391, and then encouraged him to join you on me instead 2508. So what's your read on Hindu? Town or scum?

I think that he and reck are both town. I think all three scum are in the lurkers + you, offchance chesskid

I'm not going to wade through your ISO again to continue this argument but the only firm reads I remember off the top of my head from you are town!Mastina, town!Cheeky, town!Anenien, scum!chesskid, scum!GL, with shade thrown at Smart, Hindu, EP when convenient. Don't remember any discussion from you on Katy or BYF. I believe my reads are just as easily understood and present in my ISO as yours are, and mine are even easier to go back and find because my ISO is less than a 10th of volume as yours.

I gave a readslist last time creature was on. On top of that, you have asserted that I've thrown shade at EP when I'm fairly sure that I have never expressed a scumread on that slot. BYF is town, etc.

I'm turning it around on you because I don't see at all why you are switching over to try to strongarm a flashwagon on me, the reasons you've given in thread are not really believable nor accurate and I'm getting a sense that this is entirely scum-motivated. Forcing you to engage with my defense will give town better content to work with on my flip than a single readslist - especially since it's D1 and my reads are still baking in the oven. I have provided reads earlier in the thread and the way you asked for it despite your insistence that I'm scum also feels more like you're just looking for more reasons to argue with me and push me

You're playing a game where about a third of the players have admitted they either don't care or hate the game and you're wondering why I'm trying to close out D1?

oh look, I was right

RC I'm probably gonna just stop playing with you after this game. I get that being manipulative and making shit up is just as much a part of your towngame as your scumgame and it makes you unreadable, but it also makes it an absolute chore to try to deal with you

Hooooooly shit this is awful. Don't play with me if you don't want to play with me but don't imply that I'm manipulative or making shit up.

[RadiantCowbells]

But you are manipulative. Are you denying that?

Me? Absolutely. But he knows that and he tried to call me scum because of the way I appealed to people to push his lynch when he knows that's exactly how I push lynches.

what is this? It's not my job to towntell to you, it's my job to sort other players and your job to read me correctly. I can already feel you pushing the "GL's play was so inactive and poor that he had to be policy lynched even if he were town" RC garbage the next day

like in what universe is this a pro-town thing to do, encourage a hammer as quickly as possible on a wagon that just sprung up in half a day? "You guys hate how much that dude chesskid spams, right?!? Wanna hammer an objectively weak lynch on a player who hasn't been able to post much today?"

point me to your reasoned readslist first

I get that being manipulative and making shit up is just as much a part of your towngame as your scumgame and it makes you unreadable, but it also makes it an absolute chore to try to deal with you

This discrediting of my read on him is fucking terrible. If GL was town his approach wouldn't be to discredit me and move on to other wagons, that's scum who just wants to avoid pressure.
He also insinuates several times that I'm scum but he's not following up on it at all, which is again the main reason I scumread him: there's no follow through with stuff that he does.
he's just looking for a wagon.

I have no read on BYF

I started townreading you again because of stuff that you did after that readslist.

Honestly RC, your recent posting looks pretty bad. Not scum bad necessarily, but like, you're biased to continue with your read.

No, GL is just being straight up scum manipulative in a way that people on mafiascum suck at seeing.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're missing my point with the middle bit BYF.

Okay, his point stands that people wouldn't have known that.

What's his point though? Are you not concerned that he was happy to just write everything off as 'town RC being manipulative again fuck that guy'.
And to preempt this I do not think his threat to not play me again is something that he would not do as scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

what is this? It's not my job to towntell to you, it's my job to sort other players and your job to read me correctly. I can already feel you pushing the "GL's play was so inactive and poor that he had to be policy lynched even if he were town" RC garbage the next day

Like weren't you one of the people scumreading Adenine when he made a post like this? Because this is so, so much worse than adenine's.

[RadiantCowbells]

Well, there goes my saturday.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't believe that you believe that I'm scum with Mastina and attempting to bring down my partner who was in a strong position as opposed to getting them to shore up their position.

Narcissistic rage is a reaction to narcissistic injury, which is a

perceived threat to a narcissist's self-esteem or self-worth

. Narcissistic injury (or narcissistic scar) is a phrase used by Sigmund Freud in the 1920s; narcissistic wound and narcissistic blow are further, almost interchangeable terms.[1] The term narcissistic rage was coined by Heinz Kohut in 1972.

Narcissistic injury occurs when a narcissist feels that their hidden, "true self" has been revealed. This may be the case when the narcissist experiences a

"fall from grace"

, such as when their hidden behaviors or motivations are revealed, or

when their importance is brought into question

. Narcissistic injury is a cause of distress and can lead to dysregulation of behaviors as in narcissistic rage.

Narcissistic rage occurs on a continuum, which may range from instances of aloofness and expressions of mild irritation or annoyance to serious outbursts, including violent attacks and murder.[2] Narcissistic rage reactions are not limited to personality disorders and may be also seen in catatonic, paranoid delusion and depressive episodes.[2] It has also been suggested that narcissists have two layers of rage. The first layer of rage can be thought of as a constant anger (towards someone else), with the second layer being a self-aimed wrath

Stop trying to get revenge on me because people like me more than you and get over yourself. I really hope for your sake that you are scum this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

And for the record you being scum doesn't even come close to justifying your behaviour.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're correct that I am not mad. I'm just sad.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't believe that it's at all difficult for GL to fake a competent readslist
I don't think that any of the stuff I like from him is outside of his scumrange and I think that the stuff that I don't like matters a lot.

The feeling I get from his posts on the last game is that his primary goal is to discredit my read on him and wait for the wagon to disappear, especially with how much he discredited my read by accusing me of making stuff up, being manipulative, etc. which actually isn't something that I would expect from him as either alignment, since unless something has changed he has always indicated a high level of respect for my play, but I think there's clear scum motivation for what he's doing

also just feel like the four things I keep quoting are very scummy

what is this? It's not my job to towntell to you, it's my job to sort other players and your job to read me correctly. I can already feel you pushing the "GL's play was so inactive and poor that he had to be policy lynched even if he were town" RC garbage the next day

I don't say stuff like this and I don't think GL says that I do

like in what universe is this a pro-town thing to do, encourage a hammer as quickly as possible on a wagon that just sprung up in half a day? "You guys hate how much that dude chesskid spams, right?!? Wanna hammer an objectively weak lynch on a player who hasn't been able to post much today?"

I understand town being pissed because of the nature of the push but this is a terrible response to it.

point me to your reasoned readslist first

This is just a bad response

I get that being manipulative and making shit up is just as much a part of your towngame as your scumgame and it makes you unreadable, but it also makes it an absolute chore to try to deal with you

Again it all basically adds up to discrediting me for being me and I don't think that comes from GL who has a lot of respect for me

[RadiantCowbells]

And regardless of respect, I feel like GL would have been talking to me rather than at me if he were town

[RadiantCowbells]

for context if you weren't aware, GL is one of the stronger scum players of my generation.

[RadiantCowbells]

Hi guys! Super excited to replace in because I almost thought I missed the boat!

That being said...

unvote
vote: RadiantCowbells

Read a bit but will work on catching up more. Note: I WILL NOT BE READING THE WHOLE GAME. If you all insist on continuing the same game pace, then I feel pretty strongly that I will find the reads I need to get moving forward. Any other background/context I can get via, you know...clicking on the post numbers that you ALL are so kindly linking in your responses in order to validate your scumhunting.

What page are you on and why?

[RadiantCowbells]

Mulch's reads are:
chesskid town
mastina scum
RC no idea
BYF town

Do you still think GuiltyLion is scum?

[RadiantCowbells]

My main thing with Hindu is I'm not sure if those behaviors are due to being scum or due to the toxic and awful gamestate.

bingo, basically. I want to read the replacement, especially given that Cheeky has them as a top townread.

[RadiantCowbells]

one of CT

Where did this one come from again?

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually especially given that Singer's voting me for spamming so much I'm going to stop phoneposting and respond to everything when I get to a computer.

[RadiantCowbells]

This means AT LEAST the 5 of you on that above list should be advocating for a Chesskid lynch or a mastina lynch. As I have said numerous times, I AM OKAY WITH EITHER. Flipping me confirms Mastina as scum, and will result in her lynch.

You are not Ellibereth and I don't trust you not to be outright lying given that Ellibereth preventing you from revealing it in this instance is beyond strange.
I would also refuse to give you your way just on principle, so there's that.

I am town and mastina is scum. RC is scum who has actively tried to stop me from just getting my simple program guilty through. He made a decision, early, to go all in on defending mastina, and has been chaos incredible chaos while hiding behind a mask of frustration.

However, and this is the key part...he did not expect the program-generated tell. Notice how he went from "lynch chesskid" through several different attempts before settling on "lynch someone else" after I revealed it. He knows my flip dooms Mastina.

I backed off because Cheeky was clearly upset by the game.
From there I decided that it wasn't worth it to push on you today and eventually decided that other people may be right that you're town and to leave it up to the hider to deal with.
You're talking like I'm doing my best to prevent Mastina or you from being flipped when I have advocated the hider be on Mastina for the past 50 pages or so.

RC is arrogant

RC probably believes that he alone is the one who can carry the scumteam to victory. Based on all the chaos he has caused today and the numerous townreads he has obtained for it, he's probably not wrong.

yeah okay bud. Or go read the scumthread of Mod is Mafia.
If you think that I'm bussing GL I will happily take your vote though!

[RadiantCowbells]

Does anyone else on your team have tells from it?

The implication here is that you're essentially shooting yourself in the foot by depriving your teammates of information. Don't you want to win team mafia?
Why haven't you been scouting games for tells and telling your teammates about them if you actually have machine tells?

[RadiantCowbells]

More Mulch's reads:
chesskid town
RC scum
mastina 100% scum

Ask mulch what his record is reading me

[RadiantCowbells]

I guess we stick with the mastina lynch.

Now who gets the hider?

still not in favour.