White Flag - TM2020

[Dunnstral]

@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?

I was fine playing in anything except for the large theme and the open setup

I voted for wgeurts because I liked KittyMo’s entrance and wanted to build a wagon, and wagons good blah blah blah

I feel like my scum game is overrated

but that’s just me

It was more post #10 than her opening opening that I liked. Just a gut “hey that feels genuine” ping but gotta go off something.

I thought people might interpret that as me trying to pocket nsg or something but really I’m just a fanboy. Also don’t think that post realistically does anything to “gain favor” with a player of her caliber (oops I’m doing it again).

I have an early townread on this posting here, it feels genuine

I’m trying not to explode the game because I already have a lot of posts and a sizable portion of the game still hasn’t even checked in

Awkward post, I have a hard time believing this reasoning

Why was this something you felt the need to wait to reveal?

I didn’t actually :P But it is helpful to see what people pick and choose to respond to. Like do people ask legitimate questions are do they ask empty questions like Cephrir’s wood question

What empty question did he ask? It looks like you started pushing him because he started voting you.

I agree. Wasn't a fan of the overly casual tone Dann had in his first few posts.

Why? I was.

How does the answer to "Why White Flag?" give any useful information? The reasons would have been established prior, and there's no picking games after role assignments anyway.

Well it speaks to the type of person you are generally which is what I want to explore. It is helpful for me to know what type of people I am dealing with since I haven’t played with many of you.

Do you think it is a bad idea to try and introduce discussion into the game?

Not a fan of this. The first part feels like the 'make up a technically flawless answer that perfectly explains why I asked a question when I absolutely wasn't thinking about that logic when I asked it' that I used to catch myself doing as scum a while back. It feels semi-over engineered/too prepared for someone asking.

Second point is oddly hostile. Not really a question since it's rhetorical and nobody is ever really going to say 'yes I wanted to stop us introducing discussion into the game.'

First point here, talking about the engineered response: I wouldn't have caught this on my own but I agree with it now that you've pointed it out. I don't have an opinion on the oddly hostile thing.

This post sounds like a robot wrote it.

It's because he said he wanted to 'explore'

VOTE: gobbledygook

There's motivation to ask it as both town and scum. I'm only interested in what you've learned from the rest of our responses.
I can see scum motivation in posting a question designed to appear towny while not having any real justification for it, maintaining secrecy when asked why you did, and giving a tame explanation much later.
What's your experience playing scum? Can you describe your scum playing style? More specifically - if you roll scum, would you allow being coached by your partners?

That is a fair assertion. I had two main reasons for asking the question. 1) I wanted to understand the types of players in this game. I wanted to see if it was going to be a lot of people with big personalities or people who thought highly of themselves a la RC/Mastina/Kuribo, etc. It appears that this playerlist is not like that at all, judging from the responses. Save for probably Dongempire. 2) I wanted it to get us out of RVS by giving us SOMETHING to talk about.

I have only played scum twice. Both in New York.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80850
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80463

I would say that as scum I generally do not care if I get lynched because I hate playing it so I do things that are probably suicidal from an outsider's perspective.
Yes, I would allow my teammates to coach me, but if I was scum I would have told them the same thing and probably to save their breath.

I looked at the games you linked, you replaced into both of those so you never had to deal with the early game as scum before

[Dunnstral]

:shrug:

I'd rather move on and talk about something else at this point

So I used a, single "particularly"

That is a ridiculous

VOTE: Cephrir

Well you brought something up Cephrir, it doesn't make sense to "move onto something else". I don't like that you attacked their post and while it's still hanging in the air try to end the discussion

Post 95 makes me a little less confident on Gobbledygook being scum

I'm just tired of being the day 1 lynch. It's been like 6 games now and its uber frustrating because I would say I am above 60% for catching scum but it doesn't matter people just do not understand me and kill me.

This post is weird when you posted this earlier:

That is a fair assertion. I had two main reasons for asking the question. 1) I wanted to understand the types of players in this game. I wanted to see if it was going to be a lot of people with big personalities or people who thought highly of themselves a la RC/Mastina/Kuribo, etc. It appears that this playerlist is not like that at all, judging from the responses. Save for probably Dongempire. 2) I wanted it to get us out of RVS by giving us SOMETHING to talk about.

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=81628&start=575

This game is exactly the type of day 1 that I feel like is happening here

I think you act quite a bit differently in that game than you are in this game, though.

And I'm saying this with minimum bias on my part, I'd like to think.

I don't particularly like the Cephrir vote on Dann

I did though, I think Dann wrote you off as town too fast and was kind of scummy in the posts right before the vote

[Dunnstral]

I feel those two games were outliers. More often than not—if you'll allow me to brag for a moment—I'm pretty good at obv-towning as town.

If the start of the masquerade game is indicative of your regular performance, you're pretty good at obv towning as scum, too

VOTE: auro

Do you have any experience playing with auro?

[Dunnstral]

Do you have any experience playing with auro?

Nope

I don't think the post above your vote was indicative of scum them, I think they tend to post like that regardless, in a way that I read as kind of scummy looking

[Dunnstral]

Awkward post, I have a hard time believing this reasoning

Why?

I think it's more likely that you're making excuses rather than caring about thread health from post volume
This was in response to you being asked why you are made of wood - I don't think the response is true either, I don't think you look weird because you're "holding back" on posting

What empty question did he ask? It looks like you started pushing him because he started voting you.

He asked me why I felt so wooden. I don't understand how I am supposed to respond to that, as either alignment. To me, it looked like a rhetorical question designed to shade me.

But you did respond to it. You first said it was because nobody was posting, then said it was because you were trying not to explode the thread. I don't believe that it looked like a rhetorical question to you, because you answered it without questioning it at the time - why would you answer a rhetorical question? And then post 66 shows you acting oblivious.

There are many responses to the question he asked and a lot of them can be alignment indicative, while a few more can potentially explain that the way you were acting was not alignment indicative, or something.

It's not until post 76 that you bring it up again, after which Cephrir responds to you with his basis for the comment (this is him explaining why he felt you were wooden, not whether it was an empty question, which wasn't implied at this point)

Oh, and people who say they don't know how they'd respond to something as either alignment, or variations of that phrase, tend to be scum, in my opinion.

This post is weird when you posted this earlier:

What makes it weird?

First you posted the following:

1) I wanted to understand the types of players in this game. I wanted to see if it was going to be a lot of people with big personalities or people who thought highly of themselves a la RC/Mastina/Kuribo, etc. It appears that this playerlist is not like that at all, judging from the responses. Save for probably Dongempire.

I think that the above response implies a disdain for these types of players.
A short while later, replying to something else, you post the following:

I'm just tired of being the day 1 lynch. It's been like 6 games now and its uber frustrating because I would say I am above 60% for catching scum but it doesn't matter people just do not understand me and kill me.

Which is you thinking highly of yourself, which is a sort of lack of self awareness. And that's weird.

[Dunnstral]

I think you act quite a bit differently in that game than you are in this game, though.

What is different between that game and this game? My spat with Cephrir feels extremely similar to my spat with Chkflip, just with a lot less emotion.

Here is a sample of posts you made in that game:

So if the townie vengekills wrong today we lose. Huh

This was an incredibly risky vote to place down. Why did you feel comfortable putting someone at L-2 when scum could easily quick hammer?

Mind explaining why?

No. I think BBmolla’s reasoning for voting me is an overreaction to weird wordage personally. I don’t think it means I’m scummy for it. I’m mainly preoccupied that from any one townie’s perspective They have a 50\50 chance of catching a scum.

I will say that of the two votes on me I think Cheekys is the worse one.

And this is a sample of posts you've made in this game:

I’m trying not to explode the game because I already have a lot of posts and a sizable portion of the game still hasn’t even checked in

Where is this coming from?

I didn’t actually :P But it is helpful to see what people pick and choose to respond to. Like do people ask legitimate questions are do they ask empty questions like Cephrir’s wood question

So I used a, single "particularly"

That is a ridiculous

VOTE: Cephrir

I think it gave me readable content on you and Auro for sure, I just currently cannot understand what I am looking at when it comes to you both. I would probably say if you and auro are more likely town and Cephr is more likely scum even though I don't think he answered my question

I think you're a lot more to the point and down to business in the town game you linked. You had fluff posts, sure, but that's not the point. In this game you're making a lot of excuses and playing defense, while in the other game where people voted you gave reads. In this game it looks more like you're looking for an excuse to discredit someone who is voting you/voting them for something flimsy, which wasn't really what they were saying. And you also are playing the fence on Auro/Cephrir for some reason, which looks more like trying to look busy than genuine solving like in the other game.

Like do people ask legitimate questions are do they ask empty questions like Cephrir’s wood question

Ironically, this is an empty question, and how do you expect Cephrir to respond to that, etc.

[Dunnstral]

Where is your avatar from Dunn? It is pretty

It's a silhouette of Kaito from Danganronpa laid over an illustration of space

[Dunnstral]

This is literally not a question that I posed to anyone in this game... It was me explaining my thought process to Dann.

Your un-posed question directly attacked Cephrir's reads, so it's expected that he'd reply to you. You're arguing semantics to try to be "right".

This feels like a misrep

It's not a misrep, you talking about posing the question to somebody wasn't what I was talking about

in the same way Cephrir's "big words" misrep

Him saying you use big words is his subjective opinion. How can you call it a "misrep"? He can think that and be wrong.

[Dunnstral]

Wow, his tone is different when he replaces in at post 1727 and was a

traitor

instead of main faction scum, where he would have surely been playing differently because there are different things to consider, and it's also a game where he never got pushed and was instead nightkilled by his own scum faction. And you're comparing that to a 7 page game he started from the beginning where people came in and called him out on things. Wow, I can tell you put a lot of thought into this Auro, except you didn't, and I kind of would have expected you to have.

As for the other game, where he replaced in at post 1747, do you want to explain how his tone is "very different"?

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral, the difference in those conditions is irrelevant.

It really isn't. Can you prove he's playing differently because he's a different alignment, and not because he's at a different point in a game, with different conditions? Have you ever heard of a controlled variable? There are so many things that can be affecting his "tone" that it becomes meaningless to try to compare the two, or at the very least it should be taken with a heavy dose of skepticism.

I admit I've just skimmed, but see for yourself - he's very directed in his posts in that game, and mildly aggressive. It feels like a stark contrast from this game, where there's clearly enough content to start making pushes but he's on the fence, with no aggression. It's reasonable to infer that he'd carry the same general mindset at game start, which would reflect as forced pushes.

I think the difference between playing as traitor scum and main faction scum is big enough to explain such a difference. There are different mindsets that go into playing that role.

I don't see the same aggressive that I saw in the town game he linked. In the scum game he hops onto already existing wagons with very minimal explanation, and does not actively seek out answers on his own, and instead shades people - which looks like what he is doing in this game

He played more aggressively in his town game that he linked than in the scum games he linked, in my opinion.

His votes in this game look much more similar to his scum games votes. Context is different, because people pushed on him this game, though.

[Dunnstral]

I don't think the other variables matter much.

OK, then I don't think your read matters very much - you're only looking surface level at the info that he himself linked

I've hard-defended Gobbledygook in the last few pages,

To a degree I don't feel was appropriate, yes

I think Hopkirk is actually my strongest town read and that's been backed up by my team.

I could respond to those posts, but it strikes me as deeply pointless.

This is why people are saying you're ignoring engagement, by the way

I don't see a reason to think he's anything other than null right now. Unless his scum game is really bad or something, I don't get why people are townreading him.

Do you have any experience playing with auro?

Nope

I don't think the post above your vote was indicative of scum them, I think they tend to post like that regardless, in a way that I read as kind of scummy looking

This...feels really over-explainy?

I'd say I was explaining something, I wouldn't say I was over-explaining it. Where do you draw the line, and why was it drawn in my probably shortest interaction in the thread?

Sounds like you're projecting with minimal context to justify it, which to me reads like you're shoehorning trying to look like solving.

What am I "projecting" and how does over-explaining relate to that/why does it sound like that?

And if there's minimal context to justify it, then how am I also "over-explaining"? The statements are contradictory because I am the one providing the context - you're adding words that don't make sense here.

The shoehorning thing is another buzz word and I don't think it means anything.

Furthermore, the post above his vote (url=viewtopic.php?p=11480218#p11480218]#127[/url]) isn't even talking about Auro.

The one above that one, I thought it was clear what I was referencing, even though I pointed to the wrong place.

[Dunnstral]

and we managed not to discuss team mafia at all except for occasionally confirming that we weren't allowed to talk about it

So same thing you've been doing in thread then?

[Dunnstral]

You don't deserve that actually, 149 was a good post

[Dunnstral]

I don't see a reason to think he's anything other than null right now. Unless his scum game is really bad or something, I don't get why people are townreading him.

This is talking about Hopkirk by the way, not Ceph

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn 154 – why did you like early Dann posting? Are you disagreeing that it sounded casual or disagreeing about how you read it? I’ll follow up on this myself too afterwards.

Not sure what you mean, I don't think I said that I liked early Dann posting

[Dunnstral]

Nevermind, I thought you meant the end of my post reacting to 122 - I totally said that, that's not a read that's lasted this long though. I don't really remember, It was just the feeling I was getting at the time - looking back on it I wouldn't call it town again, which probably isn't what you wanted to hear

[Dunnstral]

So I've found two scum which is enough to win the game. Auro and Dunn are both scum kthxbi

ice cold take

[Dunnstral]

This post is weird when you posted this earlier:

What makes it weird?

First you posted the following:

1) I wanted to understand the types of players in this game. I wanted to see if it was going to be a lot of people with big personalities or people who thought highly of themselves a la RC/Mastina/Kuribo, etc. It appears that this playerlist is not like that at all, judging from the responses. Save for probably Dongempire.

I think that the above response implies a disdain for these types of players.
A short while later, replying to something else, you post the following:

I'm just tired of being the day 1 lynch. It's been like 6 games now and its uber frustrating because I would say I am above 60% for catching scum but it doesn't matter people just do not understand me and kill me.

Which is you thinking highly of yourself, which is a sort of lack of self awareness. And that's weird.

I can't tell if you actually think this is scummy or this is just a point where you're not getting his mindset and are kinda just looking into it, but the way it's presented seems like more of a "gotcha" than I think it deserves to be. You can wait til he comes back or not to talk about it more, it just is something I want to discuss.

I think 91 is more likely to be a faked post because of 98, and that his omgus behavior when he seems to acknowledge that people don't get him and kill him doesn't really make sense to me

the lack of meaningful engagement is a good enough reason to scumread someone, no?

Unfortunately no

Yes. I think the scenario where Duck makes up a small reason to suspect me and has Damn post it is ess plausible than Duck actually telling him to keep an eye on me,

Well if he's town, then his teammate acts one way, if he's scum then his teammate acts the other way, right? Or are you saying that Duck wouldn't bother with that if he were scum?

I'm fed. I'm showered. And as soon as I repack this piece in front of me I'm going to be present for a reread if anyone is interested in danding.

Is gobble vote-worthy in your eyes, why or why not?

@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?

Didn't was meant to be in Large Theme. Someone on my blacklist was in there so I didn't get put there and our allocations were shuffled and now I'm in one of my least favourite setups commonly played.

All you have to do is scumhunt, you don't have to worry about the mechanics of the setup at all

[Dunnstral]

You've never seen town ask other people questions about other peoples scumread on themself?

[Dunnstral]

You've never seen town

ask other people questions about other peoples scumread on themself?

[Dunnstral]

That's a pretty low threshold for calling Espeonage town

[Dunnstral]

I've never played with him before, should it be a lot higher?

If you've never played with them before, why do you think they are town?

at this point I'm just trying to throw stuff out there and see what sticks and what doesn't because this game needs something to kick start it

Low effort + unjustified townreads don't "kickstart" games, and usually people aren't trying to "see what sticks" with townreads, seems more like you're just saying words and tmi reading people as town.

Do you see the difference. One is you working with someone to get in to their head to understand what they are thinking and most importantly why. The second is getting the blueprint on how to appear more town.

I don't think that is something that scum are likely to do though, and I don't think what you are pointing at is scum indicative

Duunstral, where are your not gobbledygook reads at? Unfortunately I don't really get much from your cases on him

[]
[Joan of Arc, Cephrir, Dongempire, wgeurts]
[Kittymo, Auro, Hopkirk]
[Dannflor, Formerfish, northsidegal, Espeonage]
[

I've never played with him before, should it be a lot higher?

If you've never played with them before, why do you think they are town?

at this point I'm just trying to throw stuff out there and see what sticks and what doesn't because this game needs something to kick start it

Low effort + unjustified townreads don't "kickstart" games, and usually people aren't trying to "see what sticks" with townreads, seems more like you're just saying words and tmi reading people as town.

Do you see the difference. One is you working with someone to get in to their head to understand what they are thinking and most importantly why. The second is getting the blueprint on how to appear more town.

I don't think that is something that scum are likely to do though, and I don't think what you are pointing at is scum indicative

Duunstral, where are your not gobbledygook reads at? Unfortunately I don't really get much from your cases on him

[]
[Joan of Arc, Cephrir, Dongempire, wgeurts]
[Kittymo, Auro, Hopkirk]
[Dannflor, Formerfish, northsidegal, Espeonage]
[gobbledygook]

[Dunnstral]

Not trying to impede the gobble wagon by arguing semantics or complaining about the game = towny

[Dunnstral]

If you've never played with them before, why do you think they are town?

Unsure what this question is supposed to mean? Am I not supposed to form reads on people I've never played with before?

I don't understand how you formed that read if meta isn't a part of it. It feels too fast.

Nevermind, I thought you meant the end of my post reacting to 122 - I totally said that, that's not a read that's lasted this long though. I don't really remember, It was just the feeling I was getting at the time - looking back on it I wouldn't call it town again, which probably isn't what you wanted to hear

When you say you wouldn't call it town do you mean you'd call it scummy, neutral, or not sure? What are you thoughts on whether Dann looks like he's buddyfinding?

Hops 'Hoppery' Hopkirk

I don't think the posts are towny when I look back on them, so they're neutral/not sure for me. I don't know if he's buddyfinding, or if that is scummy or his personality.

You've never seen town ask other people questions about other peoples scumread on themself?

How's scum answer this vs town?

I think it's a valid question that helps show Espeonage's thought process, even if it doesn't show their alignment on its own. I'm trying to figure out why they are pushing auro

Im pretty certain on my townreads on Auro, Gobble and Hopkirk right now. I dont want to lynch in these three for today.

How can you be certain on a read on gobble right now?

Not trying to impede the gobble wagon by arguing semantics or complaining about the game = towny

How confident are you on Gobble here?

He is the scummiest player at this point in the game.

You've never seen town ask other people questions about other peoples scumread on themself?

I don't like the strawman here, but your follow-up on it in #300 is ok.

It's not a straw man.

you guys this game is so boring.

Consider: being the change you wish to see. My homie thinks you're just null, by the way, which is interesting to me!

You should listen to your homie, Cephrir is much closer to null than to displaying scum motivation in all their posts based on the way they're posting

Not trying to impede the gobble wagon by arguing semantics or complaining about the game = towny

Joan naked voted and you're pulling this out of that. Are you implying that her posting any kind of content alongside a second vote on a wagon would be

impeding

it?

No, I mean she joined the wagon instead of coming in like "why are people voting gobble" and adding to that sentiment. I admit the read is based on thinking gobble is mafia, but I wouldn't want to lynch joan today regardless, for a separate reason (she's lurking too hard for us to read her properly, and I don't want to policy lynch people in team mafia, which is supposed to be a competitive event)

And I guess to speak to my overall read here: I find Dunnstral's play to be measured and reasonable, with his responses to my poking holding up to scrutiny. I'm still looking for something that reads to me as "town" as opposed to "reasonable," though.

OK, you'll find it eventually. It kind of feels like you're holding me to higher standards than the rest of the cast here if you're still thinking I should be voted today, based on a "neutral, but reasonable" read.

I think my main problem with Auro at this point is that the way he responds to pressure tends to give me "caught for the wrong reasons" vibes.

I think he does that as town, but I don't have specific examples in mind.

@Dunn: Ceph is in your townbloc why..?

I'm drawing parallels between their play in this game and in a dance game: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=80283

I haven't actually gone back to compare the two; notably that game was MUCH more active than this one

At the very least, I feel that what people are calling him scum for are more likely to be null/nai things

Ok. I am caught up. I don't think I am actually going to wall anything, I'm just going to give reads.

Town
KittyMo
Auro
Dann
Dunn
Cephrir
Hopkirk
Espeonage
Joan of Arc
DongEmpire
Formerfish
Wgeurts
NSG
Scum

You can view the Joan of Arc line as the official null line because I have no read on that slot and it is odd that others do have a read on that slot when it has two posts with no content.

Principally, the things that I am most suspect about are...

Dunn being able to extrapolate so much from a Joan of Arc vote on me. I feel like he is projecting and has entered the Death Spiral to get me killed.
NSG stating that Wgeurts was one of the three people in her town block and then not moving her vote despite having ample to time to post several more times after that fact.
Dongempire backing off Cephrir seemed like he realized he went down the wrong path trying to get people to scumread Cephrir. I also feel like Hopkirk is reaching with some of his analysis (particular when it comes to me), but he is very funny so I will townread him to keep him around longer.

I want to vote NSG because she is playing into her scum meta that I saw in Alternative 9P. I find it odd that no one else is commenting on that. It seemed like it was common knowledge across the site since other payers in that game also made that observation.

VOTE: Dongempire

OK, your reads make sense to me from your point of view & I like this post.
Except, why are you voting the person you have 4th from the bottom? Over Formerfish, Wgeurts, NSG?

If you have meta info on scum NSG you should share it, I don't know what you are talking about.

VOTE: Formerfish

Actually reading through the last few pages, where is all this certainty about Hopkirk town coming from?

I'm leaning town on him now, for his play in this game, and I've been disregarding most of the stuff about team mafia as a whole which while I feel for him, isn't really alignment indicative

[Dunnstral]

I don't know, independent of her meta tell for being scum, the fact that she left her vote on wgeurts despite naming him as one of her THREE town reads seems pretty bad coming from the Paragon.

Do note that this is Team Mafia: even if she rolled scum, her teammates would readily divert some attention here, no? I can't imagine them taking "lurking" as a scum strategy here...

Why aren't they diverting attention here if she's town? It's not like scum games are worth more points than town games. I can't imagine them taking "lurking" as a town strategy either.

[Dunnstral]

I mean I get that this game is significantly shorter than the other games and so people are less likely to be helping here in general, but your argument seems to assume they put her scum game as a priority while they don't care if she's town

[Dunnstral]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert at guessing what nsg's team would do/what they're doing, I'm saying I don't understand why the lurking is town indicative, because I don't think the logic for why she wouldn't lurk as scum is nor very good,

[Dunnstral]

To provide actual works to answer Dunn's question.

The point I am making is that there is a right way to ask about suspicion on yourself, and just asking and getting ammo on how to fix it and be town read is not the way to do it. That is why I am scum reading Auro. All of the mentality stuff I am reading in Auro's posts reads to me as working out how to be town read not how to convince others of their own reads to work with others. This isn't even town ego either which I would admit is probably townie despite being a shithouse way to play the game that I am a hypocrite for calling out.

The entirety of my reasoning is Auro cares more about being town read than finding scum.

OK, but I still don't think he is trying to do that. I think the thing you are scumreading him for is how he goes about playing as town.

I did though, I think Dann wrote you off as town too fast and was kind of scummy in the posts right before the vote

Which posts and why didnt they make it onto your catch up? You talk about Dann in your first post and you seem to like him, and then without much mention of him you flip your read.

This post:

Spoiler:

I honestly do not know what to make of you. I can't tell if Cephrir was being opportunistic by voting me first while you and Auro were pretty openly probing me with skeptical sounding questions or if you guys are town for not voting me despite the tone of your posts implying that you want to

Me being skeptical about your methods wasn't me being skeptical about your alignment. I'm town reading you, mostly off tone so it's a very not-strong™ read but something I'm willing to stick with for now. I mainly asked because I was wondering if your questioning produced any readable content for you beyond Cephrir.

I like both that Cephrir went to the effort to case the wooden tone he took issue with and then also didn't want to drag out the discussion needlessly. A lot of the time scum relishes in pointless arguing.

I didn't like how he came in and gave inconclusive reads then townread everyone, it looks scummy to me, and so i thought Cephrir's vote there made sense.

VOTE: gobble

I like this vote about as much as when he voted foe Ceph.

He was townleaning Gobble before this, it seems to be in response to Gobble coming in and not posting anything again

Gobble is the scummiest player at this point in the game.

If you have meta info on scum NSG you should share it, I don't know what you are talking about.

VOTE: Formerfish

Gob is the scummiest player to Dunn. Gob claims to have info on NSG that makes her scum. Dunn votes me while asking his biggest scum read what makes NSG scum. That totally makes sense.

The nsg thing is a totally separate inquiry. He claims to have info that suggests nsg is scum, if so I'd like to hear it, but I'm not sold on voting for nsg just from hearing that. I was fine unvoting gobble, so I moved my vote to you since it seemed like you had a decent chance of being scum; not I don't think so, and reading through your posts makes Dann look bad

I could be getting completely swindled but I dislike the people on FFs wagons and am happy with the wagon I am on.

It seems really super fkn convenient if that's the scum team which means at least one of them is very likely reading this game completely differently to me.

I will say that FF's catch up was eh at best, lots of IIoA inspires not huge confidence.

I liked his catchup + I don't think it was iioa, and I don't like the rest of your post here - I don't think FF town makes Auro scum, if that's what you're implying, I never like when people try to discredit by saying a group of voters is a scum team.

Great, I'm having Masquerade reminder induced PTSD, only difference is i dont have a pt with scum in it trying to go for a captured agency win this game.

That was me, by the way

If it helps, I think I meant to say Dann if I said Dunn. And also I forget why it was so there's that.

Are you talking about the first post where you said Auro and Dunn are scum and I responded with 'ice cold take' and you asked me how that affects the validity? Because that would make a lot of sense.

Which posts and why didnt they make it onto your catch up? You talk about Dann in your first post and you seem to like him, and then without much mention of him you flip your read.

I'm gonna be honest, Dunnstral's posts make me want to fall asleep every time I try to read them, but I think this points more towards town. In very general terms, I think scum are a little more aware of their progressions and making sure they make sense or that there's a paper trail.

I think that my posts make sense... not sure what you're talking about here

Dunn: Passive

Maybe it looks that way because the person I was pushing stopped posting for like, 5 days? I'm not being passive though

Yes, and Dunn's reasoning is that for *her* it's more town indicative than scum indicative - if she were scum she'd drum up some opposition to the wagon, etc, wouldn't sheep and lurk away.

Would you want to lynch her, if not me?

I didnt realize that there was a meta read being relied on for Joan, ive never played with her, so im taking the play at face value and im reminded of my first TM in 2015 where i froze after replacing into a teammates game. I could see this being out of someones league and just figuring it out and trying to lurk it out to hide. Its not like shes a pr trying to hide to make it til night to use her ability, we literally have no clue about her whatsoever and no one else seems to care that she is literally less than skating through the day because that would include not getting prodded which she has been.

I don't think i could get enough support for that lynch, but you guys are neck and neck in my book, you win out because theres been more to examine and what ive seen seems scummy to me. What i havent seen from Joan is what my issue is there and that reasoning is less strong in my mind.

I'm not so sure on her but I don't want to lynch her just for doing nothing, in this game, because I want to win. Day 2 or day 3, if she's still doing nothing/hasn't been replaced, we can take a harsher look at her based on information we have, right now though it's a lame lynch

-----

At this point I'm not sure if I want to vote for Dann or not
Based on their play around the Auro wagon probably not, then again Dongempire is also towning Auro but has considerably less reasons, but they're also V/la so my opinion might change again with their next posts.

I don't know, I don't have a strong scumread on anyone right now

UNVOTE: Formerfish

[Dunnstral]

Joan was Yume who is a serial lurker, and I think secret alts are disrespectful in team mafia so I don't feel bad for outting that

[Dunnstral]

Dongempire, can you find me a scumread that isn't Auro?

[Dunnstral]

Hi BBMolla, why did your team replace you in over the other options?

[Dunnstral]

The nsg thing is a totally separate inquiry.

Ok, I just don't often ask people im scumreading why they are scumreading other people.

I wasn't so certain that I wasn't willing to listen to anything they had to say.

I didn't like how he came in and gave inconclusive reads then townread everyone, it looks scummy to me, and so i thought Cephrir's vote there made sense.

Fair, how is Dann hitting you now?

Not certain but from skimming new stuff I don't think I'm interested in voting there today, at least.

That was me, by the way

What was you? The scum trying to whisper into my ear?

Lady 9

I've just seen play from scum recently like that where they legit said nothing and somehow a couple of newbies sniffed her out and we lynched there, that was in the infamous newbie 1942. Again Im a sucker for recency bias.

OK, but Joan does it as both alignments

T: Ceph, Hop

TL: Kitty, Espy, Gob

N: Dunn, NSG, Joan

SL: Auro, Wgeurt

S: Dann, Dong

I feel like there have been a lot of changes to these reads since i caught up and interacted with different people.

I feel like im more here now.

Why does everybody have me as null? Are people afraid to try to read me or do they not bother to read what I'm saying?

He started with RQS, and while I do acknowledge that it's something people may consider doing to some degree before the game thread opens, all of my previous personal experiences with RQS are (1) the person who does it is town and (2) they are inevitably pushed on by people because it's a safe starting point to look at motivations behind, moreso than it being an easy thing to look like you're doing something. So weak read, but this game fits the second half of the pattern at least and I think doing RQS is more town than not because it is ballsier than it looks.

I wasn't pushing him because of RQS though, and for a while I was the only one pushing him. Also, I'm town. So... I don't buy into any of this

Bruh, be real with me, did someone coach you to do/say this? You prodged Friday (promising stuff Saturday), Sunday (promising stuff Tuesday), and then again on Tuesday. So what I get from that and this explanation is that you had stuff you thought was worth addressing over the weekend as of Friday, then on Sunday went "ehhh I'm going to take this opportunity to lurk to watch activity levels" instead, and then got actually busy. What would an activity level change have indicated to you? I've never really been in a position where I cared about watching activity levels in relation to myself - because I know my alignment already, so I don't know what there is TO watch from that? Like if there's a defined narrative involving other people and no one's challenging it, that's a game state worth examining and can be telling. If you wanted to stop posting to let pressure on you taper from everyone's boredom, I'd rather you just admitted it. Otherwise: please clarify.

Yeah I think it's bogus

I don't really see the OMGUS bit as contradictory. Like, I wouldn't say he OMGUSed Auro/Dann really for pushing him regarding RQS, and he implied his interactions with Ceph were giving him flashbacks to a situation where gobble was TvS (odd thing there now for me is, as mentioned earlier, progression on Ceph).

My problem was that he acknowledged that he gets scumread day 1 by people who don't understand him, then turned around and basically individually proclaimed that everyone who was scumreading him was suspicious, and it didn't make sense to me.

Like...I think you can think you have good reads/insticts without relating to those kinds of players/playstyles. I take it as more that he feels like he should be valued more than he is, more than he thinks he's better than other people. Not quite sure I am looking at this from the same angle you were, but I think these viewpoints can coexist.

OK. I think he was being arrogant which was what he was condemning other people for.

I kinda vibe with Dannflor's "hyperactive" take in that gobble's initial approach to the thread initially feels ...frenetic? brazen? in a way that I don't think unconfident scum hoping to just set up his teammates for the win tends to come off. I wish this was a stronger read???

If he thinks highly of himself then I disagree with this.

Auros not my scumread, i think that defending himself isnt indicative of scumminess but rather misplaced focus. Espeonage is my highest scumread right now and former would have to come second though its not half as strong as esp.

I misread 531, I guess. Or rather, I only read the bottom half

Dongempire backing off Cephrir seemed like he realized he went down the wrong path trying to get people to scumread Cephrir. I also feel like Hopkirk is reaching with some of his analysis (particular when it comes to me), but he is very funny so I will townread him to keep him around longer.

I want to vote NSG because she is playing into her scum meta that I saw in Alternative 9P. I find it odd that no one else is commenting on that. It seemed like it was common knowledge across the site since other payers in that game also made that observation.

VOTE: Dongempire

I'm going to only say this once because everyone seems to be getting the wrong idea. I'm not scumreading cephrir. I made 322 and the former vote on him was because i viewed his playstyle as pretty shitty and the way he engaged with gobble and auro the same. At that time i didnt know what to make of his posts but i didnt like them, but the reason for my push on him was that his playstyle was both lazy and didnt allow for more discussion. If you're going to push on me please dont all use the same shitty excuse, especially when its wrong.

Well all you did was naked vote so don't get mad at people for assuming things, especially when you're voting not because you scumread someone but because you don't like what they're doing

Cheeky are you gonna quick hammer me like last time

Starting to feel like the posts that made me unvote him earlier came about as a result of coaching from his team - I don't like this post, it's like he stopped solving and is just here now, hoping people don't vote him.

VOTE: Formerfish

I disagree

I am also wondering on what basis Dunnstral is trying to read Auro himself, since a lot of his content around Auro is pointing out things Auro is being attacked for that appear to be in Auro's town range. Maybe I should like Auro more for living in the thread.

I'm not going to be able to get a read on him while he's defending himself. I think he's correct in his defense. People are saying it's caught for the wrong reasons, I think he'd do it as town. I didn't say he was town, I said the reasons he were being scumread were bad and his defense was correct and what he would say as town (probably as scum too though, but not only as scum).

I have a grasp on why you like Hopkirk, but I don't on why you like Auro. (Fun fact, his name shows up in your iso 38 times).

I get that you've posted more since this but my name appears in yours almost as much as Auro's does in his right now. And people are talking about lynching Auro.

I've met Mathblade and Titus through meetups, and I literally went to school with DEB (and boonskiies and espressojet and loserdudeog etc.) so according to discord I was the one on the replacement list they were most familiar with

I heard this is the most boring game in Team Mafia let's fucking make it a party homies

This is a very NAI response, but I like it, because I would have assumed they would have picked you to play as scum over the other choices.

i apologize if this is frustrating, but my team unanimously agrees that it's best for me to spend my time elsewhere. if i don't get nightkilled this game will be my first priority tomorrow.

NSG, I have to say that this rings hollow. You've done nothing today and seemingly don't plan to do anything. Why would you be the night kill? The sheer force of reputation on your team is not enough to offset the complete lack of effort you've put into this game and the threat other strong town players in this game might pose.

More importantly, a scum lynch day 1 in white flag would be absolutely devastating to the scum. Yet, a scum lynch becomes much much less likely today without your vote and voice. This 20 page game is not long enough to warrant not at least skimming and giving what thoughts/directives you can; in addition, this game

should

be JUST as important to your team as any of the others; not only because day 1 is so important in this setup, but because all the games in TM are weighted equally. Your win here counts just as much for your team as winning any of the other games. I don't believe waiting till D2 to post increases our win chance in this game. So, I really don't see why it would be best for you to not spend time on this game.

Surely RC has considered this, surely you have, and the rest of your team. I didn't have a problem with you claiming IRL matters were getting in the way, but this reads as a lie. Are you just bored with this game? Is your team as a whole disinterested? Why?

What exactly are you thinking?

True, all 4 games are worth the same. Maybe the large theme is worth more. In any case, she should probably be playing in the game she got put in if she's playing in all the others (which is what she's claiming, I think)

On a side note Dunn is obv town according to pops.

Cool

Kitty’s wallpost only style isn’t one I think I could ever comfortably townread based on what I currently look for to try and find scum. It feels too uninteractive while being in a cheeful tone that makes me want to townread it followed by me asking myself why.

As a preface I'll say I don't auto-townread people for wallposting. Right now I'm townreading both of Formerfish/Kitty for their wall posts, and I feel more confident about those reads than my other reads. They both seem genuine. IDK how they would play it as scum but I think it would show. Kittymo is strangely interested in me, though. Also, I wouldn't describe her posts as 'cheerful tone'. I think her avatar is tricking you into reading it like that.

Well I assume I didn't really joke at all in that scumgame and I've joked in all of my towngames recently and OH GOD IS THAT THE MODS WITH A HAMMER OH PLEASE NO I'M JUST TRYING TO BE LESS SERIOUS AND HAVE MORE FUN WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH THAT MODKILL AGH WHY CAN'T I FEEL MY LEGS WHY'S IT GETTING SO COLD

More seriously and with less joking around, haven't we played several games together where I was town too?

Where exactly am I not obvtown? :( :good:

:cry: :cry: :cry:

I find it difficult to townread you when you're putting on an act

Oh the Auro wagon has half shifted so keeping it up is less pressure than I thought. Sure.

VOTE: Northside

Hop 'Hopimilius' Hopkirk

I don't like the way you are justifying switching your vote off of Auro here, or that you're announcing that you're voting people for pressure

I'm probably like

Auro, Hop, Dunn
Cheeky, Kitty, Cephrir?
-other people-
Formerfish
Dongempire, nsg

Now those are some spicy reads, in that they're completely different from everybody elses. Why are Auro and Hop top tier, and why is Formerfish below other people?

FF I found it kind of weird that I clearly townread him - as Cheeky said - but he attacked a minor misinterpretation in a way that really sounded like he thought he was talking to scum-Hop.

I think this is something town is more likely to say.

i'm all for elitism but cliquishness in mafia is pretty annoying and over-reliance on meta is a great flaw for many otherwise good players

Is this responding to something in particular or are you just ranting

641 + 643

Cephrir can I get a reads list from you?

i was thinking of trying to make one that's why i was looking at post 0
here's something quick

Dannflor- townish
BBmolla- townish
Formerfish- townish
CheekyTeeky- scummish purely because my team didn't like your predecessor
Auro- scum, but not as hard locked as i'd like to be
Dunnstral- idk
Kittymo- town
Cephrir- very handsome
northsidegal- scum, i guess
Hopkirk- townish because my team said so
Dongempire- idk, i find this person to be low charisma which makes them a challenging read
gobbledygook- townish
Espeonage- idk

I think you had me as town earlier but now it's 'idk' - what happened?

I am against Lynching NSG on principle of lurkers being terrible day 1 lynches.

Fair viewpoint.

bc I was town and feeling happy about my ability to win the game with relative ease I probably wouldn't have told my team what my role was either.

I think you're being strangely arrogant here, I don't think you've done all that much in this game.

Yes, her refusal to play/prioritize D1.

It sucks and she's doing us a disservice but I don't think that's a good reason to be wagoning her.

Scum or not, she's basically banking on her paragon reputation to prod dodge to delay her slot contributing anything substantive until d2, and pretending that this is pro town.

True but same thing as above

If you are town, you're likely dead tonight anyway. Who else are they gonna shoot, me?

If you think this, why would we lynch her day 1? It doesn't make sense.

That people who are defending Auro are going yeah ok its anti town, but it's also what he does so he's town.

That doesn't answer the above. Are other people trying to protect Auro's scum game for him? What you said in 682 seemed to imply people talking about their own scum games, not other people's.

Dunn 346's counter point to Kitty's claim that Auro is posturing as caught for the wrong reasons was to say yeah but he does this all the time. Which was one a found as soon as I started looking.

You think I care about 'protecting Auro's scum meta' by sacrificing this game or whatever? What are you on about? You're not making any sense right now.

Yeah and since Dunn implied he isn't good at reading Auro

Stop saying this please

I'm not

bad

at reading him, which is what you're making it seem like I'd say I'm pretty neutral

Yeah and since Dunn implied he isn't good at reading Auro I don't get why he cares so much about trying to bring in Auro meta.

Meta works in two ways.

1. Auro does X as scum and never as town, he must be scum (or) Auro does X as town and not as scum, he must be town
2. X is an invalid reason to scumread Auro because I've noticed it in his towngames

You don't need to be good at reading Auro to make the second point.

@Kittymo

This is the kind of post that I read as a product of Auro defending himself, where he's technically correct but I don't get a read out of him, but which I definitely wouldn't vote him for.

[Dunnstral]

- My instincts tell me that the current game state is fairly likely to lead to a Dongempire lynch which I feel pretty ambivalent about, but he's probably who I'd most like to hear from now. I'm struggling to follow the thought process on some of his votes (the Auro vote and discussion that wasn't a "push", the Ceph vote was a "push" but not bc he scumread Ceph)

This seems likely. I think I'd rather move back to gobbledygook after thinking about what I don't like from his posting + how his one post I liked could have been carefully crafted to get suspicion off of himself

VOTE: gobbledygook

[Dunnstral]

If you think Dong is 'pretty blatant scum' I'd prefer that you pushed that lynch over policy voting nsg

[Dunnstral]

My main qualm with FF is that there is small amounts of analysis, but there's a lot of words that say nothing as well.

I don't agree with this though

I've kind of already said, I hate their first two posts and that post on the last page

That's pretty weak

OK, but Joan does it as both alignments

Isn't this the same argument that Auro is trying to use about why no one should scum read him for his "NAI" actions?

Possibly, but I agree with that argument for Auro. In any case her lurking is undeniably NAI and not scumsided, and there are dozens of games for reference (pretty much any game she's played really, don't ask me to list stuff, people can check for themself if they really want to)

"ITS NOT SCUMMY, ITS TOWNY AND I DO IT AS TOWN" but you also do it as scum,

True but "they do it as town and scum" isn't really a reason to vote somebody

So if I do it as both town and scum, you accept that *scumreading* me for it is equally bad, yeah? Where'd I say you should townread me for it?

Auro's arguments like this all make sense

This is the same sort of premise that I think Dunn responded to me with earlier without addressing

on what merits he is instead reading Auro on that are more worth looking at

.

Here is where you are misunderstanding me

I don't think I can get a good read on Auro when all he is doing this game is defending himself in a way that I perceive to be NAI - because he is defending himself from something that is Nai, and is justified in doing so since there are a lot of people talking to him about it. I'm not reading him any other way, I'm saying the reasons people are using to scumread him don't make him scum. I don't like to lynch Null people on day 1

1) lurkers are fucking poison to a mafia game

2) and if you think that's me being aggressive you haven't played with me enough

1) Agree but this lurker is a paragon. Again I won't lynch her for what may happen. She will be obvious scum tbh so I'm not concerned about a scum!nsg slipping through my fingers.

2) I was thinking the same thing when dann called me rude lol.

I guess if you had read a little bit more it wouldn't feel like you just latched onto the first explicitly scummy post you saw and then went 'Zomg obv scum.'

When I read through Dong's iso there are a lot of scummy posts, so much so that it seems too scummy to be scum. I think 'surely he would think before posting as scum.' So I'm not sure if he's a generally scummy player as town or if he's just scum here. I kind of need more from you on Dong so I know that your read is legit and you're not just surface level scum hunting as scum.

i like this post a lot I'll trust you on nsg

This post feels kind of towny from BBmolla

Okay for real let’s lynch Dong today look at all the fucking resistance I’m facing against a slot almost everyone has as null THATS NOT NORMAL FOLKS

There isn't "resistance". The reason to vote him was you didn't like 2 early posts and another post, which was weak, so nobody jumped on it.

I'm at the point now that if nsg is town and lynched I don't really care because today most people seem fixated on it and that is going to mess up how the game reads D1.

Ugh.

This is lame though

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral can you help me see town FF? Why are you townreading him?

I'm not good at explaining townreads; I think that he started off weak in the beginning then picked up and now I can look at his posts and see what he is doing and it makes sense.

Formerfish

- Pretty scummy! This feels very different from town!Formerfish that I've played with before. I was town pinged by him a little when we engaged cirque his wall posts and he was actually asking me some good questions. Aside from that though, his ISO is very sparse of content that's not unneeded aggression or quibbling over semantics that don't matter. Reads list in #366 also seems... I don't wanna say political, but kinda like he just threw names into different categories until it passed the eye test. I don't understand why wgeurts or Espy or even Hop was in his town list at this point. And Joan and Dong both just feel like easy names to throw in the scum pile without elaboration.

Let's talk about FF's aggression this game, which is actually a lot less aggressive than town!FF! Or at the very least, it's directed differently. In #842 and #847 FF's questioning is:

A. not really useful in encouraging productive AI discussion
B. Assuming the person he's talking to is town, which in both cases, he was scum reading the person he was talking to

Generally, I expect FF not to hold himself back when he thinks someone is scum, he will call them out on being scum. When he's interacting with them, he tries to push them on the reasons why he thinks this. He was sort of doing this with me much earlier in the game, which is why I was town reading him, but overall, he seems much more apt to get involved in fights about semantics and rather useless things. It feels like he's kind of trying to imitate his town self in posts like #852, but it lacks any sense of being genuine when his cases and arguments are lacking the type of logic I would expect from him.

When I ask him about his progression on Auro, he responds with this:

Auro dropped lower to a scum lean because of interactions earlier. I was looking at others but had no reason to change my vote at that time. Nothing came up with the people I was scum reading and then this happened and pushed him further back down my list.

Should I be more rigid with my read?

The bolded is extremely defensive aggression that I don't think FF goes to as town. Furthermore, I don't really think this is how he responds to or interacts with a purported scum read at all.

842 looks fine to me; not every question has to try to determine if someone is town or scum, the question here is trying to determine how you are thinking about your response in 836, and standing by his earlier point. I don't think he is assuming the person he is talking to is town; I think both questions are trying to work with the other person to see what they are thinking

And Joan and Dong both just feel like easy names to throw in the scum pile without elaboration.

But I think he'd put them there as town, too, so it's not a good point

Generally, I expect FF not to hold himself back when he thinks someone is scum, he will call them out on being scum. When he's interacting with them, he tries to push them on the reasons why he thinks this. He was sort of doing this with me much earlier in the game, which is why I was town reading him, but overall, he seems much more apt to get involved in fights about semantics and rather useless things.

pedit- Auro dropped lower to a scum lean because of interactions earlier. I was looking at others but had no reason to change my vote at that time. Nothing came up with the people I was scum reading and then this happened and pushed him further back down my list. Should I be more rigid with my read?

Him fighting about semantics is a side effect of arguing with Auro, IMO. Here's the thing: He doesn't have a strong scumread, he's only scumleaning Auro and still is open to being convinced he's wrong if AUro makes a post that he likes, which he hasn't seen from Auro yet. He even says he moved Auro down to a scumlean. What you're pointing out as his behaviour is instead his behavior when he is certain that someone is scum with a higher confidence than he currently has right now - he's not in tunnel mode, he's in solve mode.

This progression is really scummy.

I'm looking at people that are consolidating on FF right now - this wagon feels sketchy, it's like it came out of nowhere that everybody is scumreading FF

[Dunnstral]

958 is overall a good post though. I don't need to comment on every little thing in there but I liked you talking about not letting espeonage attitude affect your read + their lone wolf thing. I'm also low confidence on this one and wasn't excited about pushing espy.

Nsg is playing scummy yes, low confidence on that but willing to lynch. I prefer to get GobbledyGook - is that possible today?

[Dunnstral]

He goes from arguing semantics with Auro to saying Auro must have a red PM and shutting him down.

Well where do you see this?

Where do you see him solving?

In most of his posts that don't talk about Auro I think there is clear solving. With auro there is some trying to figure him out but low decisiveness which is what you have issue with I'm guessing

[Dunnstral]

Dunn your wisdom blinds you.

IDK what you're talking about

My preferred vote right now is Gobble, my secondary vote would be NSG. We need to figure this out pretty fast because we're coming up on deadline

[Dunnstral]

That happened way late in the interactions with Auro - I think at that point he's about done with talking to Auro who he is mildly frustrated with and thinks he must be scum

[Dunnstral]

There's 4 on FF

[Dunnstral]

FF is interacting with Dunn in a way that feels like he's trying to stay under the radar. It's what and who he's picking and choosing to respond to. You're not giving his town game enough credit if you think this is it.

OK, can you explain further? How is he doing that

[Dunnstral]

I pref FF over NSG

Why?

[Dunnstral]

I am against Lynching NSG on principle of lurkers being terrible day 1 lynches.

On the NSG thing. This is a mountainous game. We ONLY have day play. Wasting the day 1 Lynch on a zero information wagon gives all the tempo to scum to dictate what voices they want being loud bc no one is implicated or soft cleared by an NSG Lynch. It is far far more important to Lynch someone who has concrete interactions other people or poignant lack of interactions with other people. NSG gives us nothing no matter what way she flips.

Should also be noted that I reckon NSG is more likely to be town in my book than most of the other lurkers.

Not seeing a lot here

northsidegal - 3 (Cephrir, Hopkirk, Kittymo)

this wagon looks really good

Yeah and the FF wagon looks really bad, IMO.

FF is l-2 but nsg isn't voting it yet.

I don't think espy is giving valid explanations for their vote here

VOTE: Northsidegal

[Dunnstral]

i told RC i wanted white flag before the open setup was revealed and so that's what he put me for.

So why isn't she playing it?

[Dunnstral]

What are you scared she's going to fool you as scum tomorrow?

I don't really like the angle of attack you are taking on these FF/NSG wagons right now

Can you explain how this is happening:

FF is interacting with Dunn in a way that feels like he's trying to stay under the radar. It's what and who he's picking and choosing to respond to. You're not giving his town game enough credit if you think this is it.

OK, can you explain further? How is he doing that

[Dunnstral]

Your progression on NSG is terrible Dunn.

No it isn't

If it's between FF or NSG, NSG is a much better vote

When did I say to lynch Dong? What does BB have to do with this?

[Dunnstral]

FF is interacting with Dunn in a way that feels like he's trying to stay under the radar. It's what and who he's picking and choosing to respond to. You're not giving his town game enough credit if you think this is it.

Why are you adverse to explaining this?

[Dunnstral]

Case still in progress, in the meantime this is where I'm at:

{Hopkirk, Kittymo, Dannflor, Dunnstral, BBmolla}
{Auro, Cephrir, Gobbles}
{northsidegal}
{}
{Espeonage, Formerfish, Dongempire}

After going through FF's ISO in depth I've changed my reads on Hop, Espeonage and Dong (again). If I was wrong on either Espeonage or FF I'd relook below my top tier town line. If I'm wrong on Dong I'd relook at BB.

FF/Dunn/BB?

Your progression on NSG is terrible Dunn. It looks like you couldn't convince enough people via proxy of BB on lynching Dong and now you're running up the other wagon to save FF.

??? what

[Dunnstral]

It's not something I can explain immediately and should become apparent when I finally finish my case.

Yes go ahead and discredit me. Outted scum.

My team wants you to know that they've been screaming at me to vote nsg for the past hour

[Dunnstral]

That's a pretty severe o overreaction to what looks like a valid question. We can't see a case you haven't posted yet.

I'm mad because Dunn infuriates me in general and it's taken a long time against some resistance to finally get the game going in the right direction. He is not interested in what I have to say he's just looking for holes to dismantle what I've worked towards.

Uh... what did I do to you?

I am interested in what you have to say

Dunn, has your whole team been following along? Do any of them have any other thoughts to offer?

No they haven't. Somebody thinks cheeky is obv town, they think ff is being put up as a coutner wagon

[Dunnstral]

I don't know what I'd rather you do, but seeing you vote FF right after gobble doesn't give me good feelings about that wagon at all

[Dunnstral]

You asked me what my team thought. That's all they said

[Dunnstral]

I didn't like gobble's vote there, though.

[Dunnstral]

Stop being caught up in the fact that you 'defender' NSG, realize she's lurkscum, and help lynch her isntead of doubling down on the idea that you have not not vote her because you defender her at one point

Yes there should be a consolidation of votes; it shouldn't be on a FF wagon where everyone came out of the woodwork and suddenly started scumreading him without talking about it beforehand. Not that people have made their intentions clear I'm talking about it - that's not on me, that's on you guys

[Dunnstral]

And I've already made it clear that I think Gobble is a good vote, but I am the only one voting that and it doesn't look like it's going to happen

[Dunnstral]

In 1 hour nsg is liable to be replaced. If you guys would rather shift to Gobbles and hope the replacement gives us info I'm all for it, but I don't want to see FF die

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Gobble

[Dunnstral]

4. The mod will force replace any player who has not posted within 3 days (Prodded after 2 days, no response for 1 more) of his last post (not including Night).

This will come at a penalty to the team.

This makes me want to lynch NSG less. She is penalizing her team by being inactive in a direct way, now.

I would like to lynch Gobbles today

[Dunnstral]

1028 is funny but I think it's clear that Cheeky doesn't believe FF is town and is instead trying to say "if you are town, do this"

[Dunnstral]

I'm not working against you and I don't know why you said I frustrate you Cheeky. I've barely talked to you this game

[Dunnstral]

Cheeky you asked me to explain to you how I saw FF as town, when I entered the thread there just happened to also be a wagon forming on FF. Would you feel better about it if I pointed out that my post 964 came 1 day, 23 hours, and 21 minutes after my previous post 770?

You barely fucking talk to me any game and always seem to think what I'm doing is stupid.

OK. I wasn't aware we had that kind of history. I'm trying to talk to you but you react by saying I'm looking for fuel to counter you with, or something.

[Dunnstral]

if FF ever flips red then kill Dunn 100%

Do you really believe this?

[Dunnstral]

Skimming the last two pages I like BBmolla for town too, but I don't remember him from the early game at all.

This statement in particular seems to come from a town viewpoint.

I'm not at all sold on a Gobble lynch.

FF, your team was giving you inputs: can you specify what exactly?

This defense is SO lame, are you serious

[Dunnstral]

The first few posts in my iso are me going over, mostly, gobble's early posts, and why I didn't like them. Later in my iso you see me talking to kittymo about gobble. If you want to see what I'm talking about, you can look there, if you want to know how I justify my read, it's in there.

His recent posting has him going between nsg and FF, deciding to join the ff wagon because he "wanted him to be town, instead of thinking he was town" and is really opportunistic jumping on FF

I'm not so sure on her but I don't want to lynch her just for doing nothing, in this game, because I want to win. Day 2 or day 3, if she's still doing nothing/hasn't been replaced, we can take a harsher look at her based on information we have, right now though it's a lame lynch

Dunn, why did this change?

We are approaching deadline; The way the wagons were looking, it was going to be either NSG or FF. I'm not scumreading FF. Also, my team was urging me to get on NSG at the same time

[Dunnstral]

I just can't believe that you would town read him that strongly that you would divert the lynch onto a no info lurker. Even if you town read him, is he not a good lynch? There have been enough stances on him and now even more so that I think it's a key piece to the puzzle you're not willing to pick up.

I don't put too much importance on "info lynch" - I'd prefer to look for the mafia.

I'm willing to discuss who becomes scum if formerfish is town - I suspect it's the same people I'm already scumreading right now; Gobble, Espeonage who's recent play is making me scumread them h arder

The scum reads on FF haven't come from nowhere people have been scumreading him at various points in the game and as we were approaching day end enough people were fine to lynch him because he's not exactly as obv town as you make him out to be. We'll never know now what all the pieces meant because you decided to the move the wagon. I really hope you're scum moving this wagon otherwise wtf dude.

Anyway at least I feel better that you're not all going to lynch the NSG slot anymore because I like having scum forced to decide whether to kill her or another prominent townie.

People haven't been talking about why they don't like FF, though. You were the first person to ask me, and FF was never really in contention for the lynch until now. Maybe I missed things, but to me it looked like this wagon came out of nowhere. I'm not sure why you're acting like I'm doing something ~wrong~ by trying to change the lynch here.

[Dunnstral]

Hello. In this post I will vomit words. Read it if it'll be helpful in sorting me or other people.

Spoiler: Town Reads!

Dunnstral

- Town. This read took a while to form. I don't know what's it been about his posts but I've just had a hard time parsing or focusing on them? I want to blame the wall post style but that's extremely hypocritical of me given I often default to that style. I think I've just been tired! Anyway, actually reading his posts it's uh... pretty good. I think the biggest factor here is the distinct lack of agenda present in his posting. His wall posts reek of good faith town sorting. I especially like progressions such as in #346 where he comes to an understanding with gobble, doesn't make a big LAMIST show of it, and moves quietly on to his next scum read. I like Dunn getting town pinged by my early posting #154 and then subsequently scum reading me and not hesitating to push me / question me. It shows a desire to constantly reevaluate without worrying about looking like he's constantly reevaluating. The uncertainty in #512 reads genuine and towny to me, as well as echoing some of the sentiments I've had about this game recently. In more general terms, he asks good questions.

CheekyTeeky

- Town. Eddie Cane helped with this read initially but since then I've liked a lot of Cheeky's posts individually. For the most part, I keep mind melding with him—which I've found to be a pretty good way to tell when someone is town—both in his entrance/initial FF vote in #552 and more recently in feeling better about Dong in #916. Cheeky has been relentless in asking people who town read his scum reads to explain where they're at, and genuinely attempting to get at the root of the difference in read. He asks Dunnstral to explain town FF and me to explain town Hopkirk. I think Cheeky has the best balance of asking good questions and actual sorting / taking stances of anyone in the game, and as such is probably my strongest town read right now. Also contrary to what BBmolla said, I really like all of his votes and timing of all of his votes. Cheeky's general paranoia and continued probing/hedging on me while still *shrugging* and putting me in his top bracket also reads like a townie progression. It shows that he's not just throwing shade at me because he can and it'll keep me from town blocking, but he actually wants to determine my alignment.

Auro

- Town. Here's the spicy one. I started town reading Auro very early on with post #50, where his concerns about Gobble's question echoed exactly what I was thinking at the time. Honestly, reading back over his ISO, I see *why* people scum read him, even if I don't agree. In general, the scum reads on him seem to be a clash in style, where Auro is a player who gets a lot out of dissecting and evaluating other player's reads on himself, whereas other players see that as overly defensive and scummy. And the thing is, I feel like Auro is a good enough player to just know that as scum, he could let some of these attacks go and look a lot better for it, but he engages in the sometimes fruitless arguments—like recently with FF—anyway. You could argue that he's just trying to clutter the thread as a scum strategy, but I really don't think that's a danger in this game with such a slow pace. Instead, it reads much more like a town mindset that's very willing to go into just about anything and everything, EVEN if that reflects poorly on himself. Like, I don't read Auro's posts and think that his defensiveness is image based, or that he's worried about being town read. Instead, I see Auro using other's reads on him as a way into sorting those people. This is shown in posts like #203 and in his reads list in #491. If Auro was focused on image, I don't think he comes around so quickly to Ceph!town when Ceph was his original attacker. His reads on Dong and Esp are also generated out of his direct engagement with them. I ALSO think it's been quite clear for a while that Auro's method has only been causing more people to scum read him, and I think Auro is smart enough to see that. Yet, he hasn't stopped. Which simply points to Auro just being town. Town that clashes with other town? Maybe, but still town.

KittyMo

- Town. Someone else said earlier that the timing of KittyMo's vote on NSG was towny, I agree with that. I'm not going to harp on too long with this read because I think it's fairly consensus. However, I will say that her progressions and thought processes in a post like #527 is super towny. She takes strong stances but still has an ounce of uncertainty that speaks to her alignment. It's not fence-sitting for an agenda, but more believable uncertainty and trying to get to a concrete conclusion despite evidence in both directions. You can see the same sort of thing in her read of me. Similar to Cheeky, she has her (valid) concerns about me but isn't interested in using them to just discredit me. Also "I guess I'm bored of everyone saying he's too good at scum to deserve to be townread or whatever with minimal elaboration" felt like an especially towny way to approach the read on me. I think me being a more uncertain town read is always going to be beneficial for scum and just dismissing that so casually is towny. Also KittyMo makes me laugh and I don't want her to be scum

Cephrir

- Lean Town. Idk like, what is Cephrir really doing if he's scum? His disinterest in this game has read pretty genuine compared to other players' similar sentiments (more on this later), and his complete lack of regard for engaging with Dong or Auro in #315 is ACTUALLY towny. Definitely a style difference between Auro and him, but in this game especially I think makes Ceph greater than rand town. We have a lot of wall posters and people engaging over every little squibble and detail, and Ceph has firmly said he's not gonna do either of those things. Psychologically, scum want to blend in and what he's done is exactly the opposite of what he needs to do for that. Is Cephrir a good enough scum player to just say fuck it and do that anyway? Probably. But I like his trajectory on NSG and nothing about his posts have really scum pinged me, so he's leaning towards the town category for now.

Hopkirk

- Lean town. Another read Eddie had first. Early on, his analysis in #73 and #149 concerning gobble was something unique no one else had latched onto yet and showed a level of deeper thinking that's harder for scum to pull off. Later on, Hopkirk's reaction to the modkill in #304 was especially genuine. I don't really think that:

A. Hop spends so much time ranting about this if he's rolled scum and really doesn't have to worry about this as much.
B. Hop lies and uses this event as scum to AtE and try to gain a distinct advantage.

A lot of the rest of the reasons I like him for town are similar for my town!Dunnstral reasons. My one main worry here is that his reads in #600 are... kind bad? Like even if you exclude me from that list, there's still Dunn, Auro, and Cheeky in his scum pool that really all deserve to be town cored IMO. I also don't think Gobble or Ceph have done enough to be town cored. FF and Espeon are just straight up scummy. So ehhhhhh... This read has dropped a lot in town equity since that post.

Spoiler: IDK!

gobbledygook

- Mixed. So uh... I was lightly town reading him off his hyperactivity and reaction to pressure in the early game. But since he's completely lurked out of the game, and even admitted to strategically lurking in #344... I just really don't know anymore? My town read on him is extremely stale and I feel like gobble just kinda disappeared at the height of his pressure/wagon, which is NOT a towny look. If he has IRL issues that's fine, but I really need to see more from him soon.

BBmolla

- Mixed. Blah. I liked the entrance and subsequent vote on Dong! It was very sharp! Since then, I'm not a fan of him writing off Dong's pop-in as fence sitty in #772, not a fan of lambasting Cheeky's vote in #793, not a fan of the "I'm obv town" bravado in #800, and not a fan of the overly dramatic and fake feeling #897. In all of these posts there is just a complete lack of any attempts to engage with other players, opting instead for making large sweeping statements and hoping people will town read him through brute force? Idk. Like I liked him, but now his push on Dong has actually made me feel less like I want to lynch Dong.

Dongempire

- Mixed. I thought his pushes on Cephrir on Auro were god-awful, I really did. I mentioned this before but I also hated the timing of his vote in #228. It feels like a very slimy way to get on the Cephrir wagon ESPECIALLY because Dong had just said he wasn't voting Cephrir said because he needed to clear his mind on FF... Yet, there is no engagement or thoughts on FF in between that statement and the vote on Cephrir. Feels like a fake excuse just so he can get optimal timing. On the flip side, I actually like #758 and #763 . Fence sitty? Yes. But tonally this feels like it really could just be uncertain town. The progression of pushing Auro and Ceph to start with and now town reading them is like... very blatant and kinda ballsy for scum in his position. also don't think it's very AI, but I very appreciated the snark in #875.

Spoiler: Scum Reads!

Formerfish

- Pretty scummy! This feels very different from town!Formerfish that I've played with before. I was town pinged by him a little when we engaged cirque his wall posts and he was actually asking me some good questions. Aside from that though, his ISO is very sparse of content that's not unneeded aggression or quibbling over semantics that don't matter. Reads list in #366 also seems... I don't wanna say political, but kinda like he just threw names into different categories until it passed the eye test. I don't understand why wgeurts or Espy or even Hop was in his town list at this point. And Joan and Dong both just feel like easy names to throw in the scum pile without elaboration.

Let's talk about FF's aggression this game, which is actually a lot less aggressive than town!FF! Or at the very least, it's directed differently. In #842 and #847 FF's questioning is:

A. not really useful in encouraging productive AI discussion
B. Assuming the person he's talking to is town, which in both cases, he was scum reading the person he was talking to

Generally, I expect FF not to hold himself back when he thinks someone is scum, he will call them out on being scum. When he's interacting with them, he tries to push them on the reasons why he thinks this. He was sort of doing this with me much earlier in the game, which is why I was town reading him, but overall, he seems much more apt to get involved in fights about semantics and rather useless things. It feels like he's kind of trying to imitate his town self in posts like #852, but it lacks any sense of being genuine when his cases and arguments are lacking the type of logic I would expect from him.

When I ask him about his progression on Auro, he responds with this:

Auro dropped lower to a scum lean because of interactions earlier. I was looking at others but had no reason to change my vote at that time. Nothing came up with the people I was scum reading and then this happened and pushed him further back down my list.

Should I be more rigid with my read?

The bolded is extremely defensive aggression that I don't think FF goes to as town. Furthermore, I don't really think this is how he responds to or interacts with a purported scum read at all.

NSG

- Lean scum. It's possible I'm so hesitant on this read because I really really really want NSG to be town this game. However, if that's the case, I really don't understand what the fuck she's doing this game. Her argument in #669 that she CAN play scum and that her game plan doesn't make too much sense as scum has some credibility. However, we're 1 day away from the deadline with the primary wagon still on her. Half the game has expressed being okay with lynching her here (I think some of the latter sentiments have been scummier than the earlier ones)... NOW is the time to show that she is town. It's really really strange because I don't see NSG, nor RC, or really that whole team being just okay with her slot dying here. This sort of leads me to believe that NSG just can't put the time in, but with half the other games in night phase that seems demonstrably untrue.

Now we're in a position where NSG is one of a few viable lynch options and only 24 hours left. Does a town!NSG let herself get into that position? It's hard for me to see that. And there are viable reasons as to why a scum!NSG would choose this strategy for the first day, such as fear of BoP.

Either way this slot intensely frustrates me and I think if town, NSG would have taken care to spend more time reassuring us that her efforts would go here eventually. Like 515 and 669 don't do enough and I feel like town!NSG should have the sense to know that?

Espeonage

- Scummy. I don't really buy Espeonage's whole "this game sucks, you all suck, and I'm sick of this" schtick. Even if some part of it is genuine, it's overblown to the point where it's a startingly large percentage of Esp's posts, which only accomplishes being a rather LAMIST sentiment. More LAMIST proclaiming in #663 with a level of analysis that reaches the highs of "lynch lurkers bad," without considering why people are suspicious of NSG in particular. I think the dichotomy of being able to compromise on most of the player list, and then also town leaning most of the player list is something that shows either a complete lack of effort or a scum player that is trying to keep their options open.

I'm trying not to let my read be tainted by my utter dislike of Espeonage's attitude, so I'm trying to be as objective as possible. But I don't really think the "lone wolf against the world" attitude is anything towny. I've correctly town read players like mbaki before for such mentalities because at least they were still trying to reach out and had actual reason to be angry. In this game, Espeonage seems to have come into the game with the express intent to be as grumpy as possible and not engage. Like nothing exactly caused this, this was how he entered the game. Anger is fine, but I don't read it as genuine given the lack of attempts to engage with anyone. It feels like Espeonage has spent more time talking about how they can't engage with anyone than even trying. This is maybe my least confident out right scum read right now, but Eddie has also backed it up so \o/

tl;dr: town core of [Auro, Cheeky, KittyMo, Dunnstral]

want to lynch in [FF, Esp, NSG]

could probably compromise on one of my mixed reads, BBmolla especially but ehhh I mostly wanna give those slots more time because I think they CAN become readable

VOTE: FF

This is what I want to kill most.

FF did this post change your read on Dann?

[Dunnstral]

Also FF, quick question: if we could wagon Dunn right now, would you join?

So I'm guessing post 1069 wasn't interesting to you?

[Dunnstral]

Tbh even though I'm really mad at Dunn I think Dann looks worse.

I think you're taking things coming from me a little too personally, I've been talking the same way to everyone all game

I think Dann has looked really towny in the latter 1/3 of the game as of now, while I wasn't getting that in the first 2/3 of the game

[Dunnstral]

and rc wanted me to say that dunn's reads are basically the same as his

okay he's bothering me to say that he specifically means on gobbles

VOTE: formerfish

i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum.

?

[Dunnstral]

NSG is playing in team mafia games that are not this one.

[Dunnstral]

A prodded player has 24 hours to respond to the prod, after which time a replacement search will begin. The prodded player may re-enter the game so long as no replacement has been found.

4. The mod will force replace any player who has not posted within 3 days (Prodded after 2 days, no response for 1 more) of his last post (not including Night). This will come at a penalty to the team.

@Mod

These 2 rules are contradictory, which one is being followed in team mafia and will NSG be replaced for failing to respond to a prod within 24 hours?

[Dunnstral]

NSG is playing in team mafia games that are not this one.

I know. What I'm surprised at is their insistence for you to lynch NSG *now* without following the game itself, given "NSG played in other games" held true throughout; while you said it's a better D2/D3 lynch

We have different thoughts because we are different people

My team isn't looking at my iso, they're giving me their thoughts

I'm told that nsg being unable to do anything in this game is her scum meta, and that she's really bad at scum

dann, what exactly do you think my plan is as scum here? you know that i actually CAN play scum, right? i've endgamed as scum before in white flag (i'm CultOfAthena).

I decided to take a look at this game. I see a lot of "will post later" and "catching up" in the mid to late game. At best you were following along with what everyone else was doing, I don't know what the point of linking this game was

[Dunnstral]

My team has not been helping me with my game before this point. Which is fair, since I am fine on my own and this game is significantly shorter than the other game

Even then, I find it weird that with all that happened in the game especially in the last few pages, they insisted on a sudden NSG lynch *without* following the game.

OK. Full context so you can understand me: I told them my reads, they told me I needed to case Gobble or vote NSG since there is only 2 days left if I don't want Formerfish to be lynched - this is them trusting my reads, not their own reads. But they also told me that NSG is playing in other games and so she is scum in this game, and I agreed with that, then they basically said "so vote her"

And while this was happening, I was instead trying to case Formerfish as town, and then I finally decided I'd need to vote NSG to save him

I literally think that team decided to blatantly give up on this game and she only posted at all because if replaced she can't play other games anymore.

If she was replaced, their team would have received a tiebreaker penalty, which I pointed out in the thread

[Dunnstral]

I am about to exist but I see posts on this page that in my opinion seem to skirt the ongoing game rule from certain people and so this is just a friendly reminder to be careful.

Are you talking to me? Because I don't think I said anything that skirts the rules

[Dunnstral]

NSG, why not vote Gobble?

[Dunnstral]

To be fair, nsg never said she was trying to avoid the nightkill, just that if she wasn't nightkilled she'd be posting day 2 - all that stuff about her lurking to avoid the nightkill was assumptions made by other people

I think it's clear that nsg wrote 1120, but it's the kind of post I'd expect scum that's already been lynched and maybe the game is ending to be saying, if that makes sense

[Dunnstral]

OK, well we need to lynch now, and not just day 2, NSG. Why are you voting Formerfish over Gobble?

[Dunnstral]

Because FF is scum probably.

Last thing she said was rc told her Gobble was scum, then she gives no indication of having read anything and says formerfish is the only wagon she can see flipping scum. Regardless of what you think, her stances there don't make sense, and I don't think continuing to defend her while she is actively avoiding answering the question is warranted

[Dunnstral]

Now he's too offended to hear her out.

I don't think that is the case, he said she is scum until she can show she isn't - which she is apparently capable of doing, but chooses not to do (I don't believe that, but it's what she's claiming)

[Dunnstral]

I'm willing to not lynch nsg if she puts forth the bare minimum amount of effort to explain what she is doing rather than hop on to ff with no explanation at all and then lurk until deadline while ignoring me

[Dunnstral]

I'm not sure if this was pointed out earlier but if FF flips town after her hop on then isn't it scum suicide?

She isn't exactly playing for late game if she's scum here

[Dunnstral]

And she'd want to take out FF instead of Gobbles? I'm with Auro on the confused part.

What if gobbles is scum too. Or she just didn't notice gobbles was being voted and came in here and said "former is the only wagon I can see being scum" without actually looking at who was voting where, thinking it was still former/her

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Northsidegal
No clue why hopkirk is voting me while claiming to have read the game. I keep changing my mind on Gobble

@Penguin

since you counted Northsidegal's vote, I guess she is not being replaced and Team Mafia is running with the ruleset that as long as the player comes back before the mod notices, they can keep playing - is that correct, or could the current votecount be innaccurate?

[Dunnstral]

get rekt

UNVOTE:

I don't even care why that of all things made you unvote, somewhere along the way I started thinking you were town

[Dunnstral]

Skimming the last two pages I like BBmolla for town too, but I don't remember him from the early game at all.

This statement in particular seems to come from a town viewpoint.

I'm not at all sold on a Gobble lynch.

FF, your team was giving you inputs: can you specify what exactly?

Why is it implausible disengaged scum Gobble would forgetfully post this?

I didn't like gobble's vote there, though.

Is there something in the progression of his vote that you don't like or is it more bad news bears because you think he's scummy in general? I'm very unsure on gobble right now because there's sort of a black hole in progressions for how he got to his original big read wall. WATCHING ACTIVITY LEVELS was bizarrely political phrasing for the absence. Now he uhhh, apparently likes everyone he used to dislike more besides Dongempire. I thought him liking FF for the burden of proof thing was random because it seemed like one of the more nai things in FF iso to me, but the overall progression on the read doesn't come off implausibly to me on face.

It felt like they turned on FF as soon as they could and that their read there was fake

I'm honestly wondering if Gobble's team told him to act a certain way around me or what. It's like, half of his posts seem really scummy and then when he comes back he sounds reasonable

[Dunnstral]

This is a mistake - NSG is scumclaiming right now

[Dunnstral]

Skimming the last two pages I like BBmolla for town too, but I don't remember him from the early game at all.

This statement in particular seems to come from a town viewpoint.

I'm not at all sold on a Gobble lynch.

FF, your team was giving you inputs: can you specify what exactly?

Why is it implausible disengaged scum Gobble would forgetfully post this?

I didn't like gobble's vote there, though.

Is there something in the progression of his vote that you don't like or is it more bad news bears because you think he's scummy in general? I'm very unsure on gobble right now because there's sort of a black hole in progressions for how he got to his original big read wall. WATCHING ACTIVITY LEVELS was bizarrely political phrasing for the absence. Now he uhhh, apparently likes everyone he used to dislike more besides Dongempire. I thought him liking FF for the burden of proof thing was random because it seemed like one of the more nai things in FF iso to me, but the overall progression on the read doesn't come off implausibly to me on face.

It felt like they turned on FF as soon as they could and that their read there was fake

I'm honestly wondering if Gobble's team told him to act a certain way around me or what. It's like, half of his posts seem really scummy and then when he comes back he sounds reasonable

Right now he is doing the reasonable part

NSG is openly scumclaiming

[Dunnstral]

NSG, why not vote Gobble?

No, I'm just letting it speak for itself. How about you answer Dunnstral's more relevant question?

OK, well we need to lynch now, and not just day 2, NSG. Why are you voting Formerfish over Gobble?

[Dunnstral]

She said her team thought gobble was scum and then said FF is the only wagon she can see flipping scum

And then she won't answer to numerous inquiries about what is going on

Plus her play when she comes back is pretty blatantly scum

[Dunnstral]

I think it's pretty obvious that FF is frustrated town with his recent posting but nobody else seems to agree with that

[Dunnstral]

I'm not going to be able to explain it beyond saying that the frustration feels genuine and the stubbornness when being lynched is a town trait

Sigh. If you had just stopped being stubborn and worked with me as town I think it's unlikely things would have ended up this way.

How certain are you that FF is scum?

[Dunnstral]

To the people asking what my team has said, it has mostly been Menalque and the only real comment he had was for Dunnstral to say that his push on me looked like a push for LHF that Menalque had seen scumDunn do with scumMenalque.

Menalque is going to be more active now that he is dead (rip)

You weren't low hanging fruit until you started intentionally lurking

[Dunnstral]

Wow this votecount looks really different than what people's reactions in thread would have led me to believe. FF is l-3 and not even the leading wagon right now.

[Dunnstral]

Gobble wagon seems rushed. I think people caved in too early to formers offensive.

I especially didnt like that nsg was MIA and yet former still said she was making it a 1v1, shes not even here

I will also say that i dont like how cheeky attacked dunn out of thin air - it seems like it was meant as a way to lull the nonattentive to thinking dunn was doing something malicious against her when he wasnt. As far as i see its not like she scumreads him either so wtf?

Nsg did make it a 1v1 though by ignoring gobble and voting for former, and now we only have time to vote one of the 2

I'm not personally interested in voting gobble anymore, and so that wagon will probably not happen

Gobble wagon seems rushed. I think people caved in too early to formers offensive.

I especially didnt like that nsg was MIA and yet former still said she was making it a 1v1, shes not even here

I will also say that i dont like how cheeky attacked dunn out of thin air - it seems like it was meant as a way to lull the nonattentive to thinking dunn was doing something malicious against her when he wasnt. As far as i see its not like she scumreads him either so wtf?

Nsg did make it a 1v1 though by ignoring gobble and voting for former, and now we only have time to vote one of the 2

I'm not personally interested in voting gobble anymore, and so that wagon will probably not happen

Yeah formers scum.

I have never believed his posts were anything outstanding, but thats not the smoking gun for me. The last 3 posts he made seem like its coming from frustrated scum that got caught due to luck, and his desperation to switch to a NSG wagon shows that also.

Well it's either him or NSG and NSG isn't doing anything to make herself look like town, so what do you expect him to do?

[Dunnstral]

There has to be scum at the center of the gamestate here

there would not be this much conflict if there wasn't

IDK what this means or if it's even true

[Dunnstral]

^ And Dong is posturing around voting Former, yes

[Dunnstral]

Dannflor, the entire formerfish wagon right now is lurky people who started coasting around end of day, aside from you

Look at bbmolla. Look at Espeonage. Look at Dong getting ready.

[Dunnstral]

Tin foil hat time.

There are two players that have been on two important counter wagon movements today. One is on someone who if town, fits a very strong archetype for white knighting, someone argumentative with a divisive personality and convenient but not necessary valid counterpoint to rally around.

Then, as consolidation happens at end of day with part of it around an easy lurk Lynch and the other on another generally scum lent slot, they launch a second co-ordinated counter wagon movement, one doing with with a tone that felt to me frantic.

I accuse Dunnstral in the Dannflor with the Formerfish. I'd like to check the envelope please.

Is no one else getting klaxons going off in all directions from Dunn's reaction to the FF momentum?

Because that is ringing so clear at me right now.

Vote: Dunn

Vote: FF

-----

I still think FF is a good lynch, the AtE didn’t have the apparent affect on me it did on you all

I’m fine with a NSG lynch but I don’t think she’s scummier than FF, I just think her fucking logic sucks

Don’t like Gobble wagon.

This is a mistake - NSG is scumclaiming right now

Oh no she might flee tonight!

Oh wait

[Dunnstral]

Im not posturing. You think we're done? I wanted to use the some time left over to make up for my activity.

No I'm Dunn

[Dunnstral]

What does the middle part mean though, really?

[Dunnstral]

If you're town, there must be some discussion about gamesolves for this game, right? While if you're scum there wouldn't. So I want access to them, and paraphrasing is allowed.

I don't think anyone on my team has read any of the other games.

Only Nancy read my game and had the same thoughts so there's nothing much in terms of discussions, but yeah, I'd like to hear whatever FF has to offer.

@FF or is there nothing and you guys haven't discussed at all? That's okay too, except it's the most likely thing that'll convince me not to lynch you.

:shifty:

Double standards for sure

[Dunnstral]

I don't have much of an opinion on Dong right now

[Dunnstral]

My problem is that if I hammer NSG and she flips town then I get shot to set you up and you're the main distraction D2 (assuming town). I don't know how to fix the inevitable chase of you from this point if you're not lynched today.

Same thing happens to NSG if we lynch FF and he's town though

[Dunnstral]

I'm willing to hear why Gobbles/Dong deserve votes

Like I said I think Gobbles is being pretty reasonable right now and it puts me off from voting him

[Dunnstral]

Why didn't Dong vote Former there

Not a logical reason yes but i didnt check the vc or the deadline, i just wanted to get in whatevee i had in mind and go to bed

Not defending myself but i dont want anyone to get the wrong ideas either.

This felt a little townie to me

Thanks cap.
VOTE: Formerfish

Nsg/cheeky/maybe hop

I could vote here for sure. Votes me but doesn't have me as scum...

He explained that that was who he had as scum after you were lynched

[Dunnstral]

I think BBMolla is scummy

[Dunnstral]

Cheeky would you vote for BBMolla?

[Dunnstral]

Yep. Kinda don't feel great about your read change on the slot though seeing as you townread yume off of nothing.

What's wrong with Dong?

Well, my read on Gobble is also changing, and my read on Joan was admittedly based on that

[Dunnstral]

I'm going to make this the fucking fun game or die trying

which aggression is over the top/ungenuine?

I'd rather do that than get to LYLO and have NSG not fucking posted all game because "sorry guys other games required attention."

As well as overly aggressive (why you mad bro) why can't we see if she posts tomorrow? It's not like we have to lynch her today for how she could possibly play in the future, that seems unfair right?

Like you could continue to be lurky but it wouldn't make sense for us to lynch you based on what you could do.

okay but what if we don't lynch her today and she's not playing in the future but there's obvious fucking scum that we can't lynch because she's continuing to lurk

lurkers are fucking poison to a mafia game

and if you think that's me being aggressive you haven't played with me enough

Dong is pretty blatant scum imo

I'll vote NSG when I know I'm not hammering, not gonna put up with that shit, we're not your fucking sidepiece game NSG, play or die

I feel like this game is fairly obvious for the most part? Lot's of pretty readable people in this game.

Although Espy iirc is really fucking hard to read for me, pretty sure I've lost to Espy scum multiple times

I don't think your early sentiments match your current actions, and you're pretty much coasting/doing nothing while these wagons go through, except you popped in to shut down Gobble wagon

[Dunnstral]

This is a mistake - NSG is scumclaiming right now

Oh no she might flee tonight!

Oh wait

What was up with this post?

[Dunnstral]

So both wagons are scum, and there's "wagon resistance" from the remaining 10 town and 1 mafia?

[Dunnstral]

I think NSG is scum, but not FF. All I see is you voting for FF over NSG

Your wagon resistance thing doesn't make any sense - the vast majority of players are town

[Dunnstral]

I like these wagons what course should I be taking?

Former seems like its a done deal at this pointz i doubt trying to flip everyone on nsg at the last moment will work, and im pretty sure on former (im also convinced on nsg but in a decision of one or the other...)

This is a pretty lazy excuse, your vote on nsg would put her to l-1, while your vote on FF ties the wagons at l-2, so "flipping everyone" isn't something that needs to happen if you wanted to

[Dunnstral]

I really doubt we'll have enough time to to switch to BBmolla

I think I like Dong and Espe for town a liiittle bit more than previously

[Dunnstral]

That's nice, but it doesn't explain how you keep pointing to wagon resistance but think that both of these people can be scum

[Dunnstral]

I’m on my lunch break now
If I die Cheeky/Dann looks really bad with NSG scum flip. I think it would make BBmolla town too

You called yourself low hanging fruit earlier. Why do you think you have a chance of dying?

[Dunnstral]

I disagree that it was scumdriven because certain people didn't want to vote NSG and they weren't feeling FF as strongly scum as before, so they needed someone else to vote

[Dunnstral]

That's nice, but it doesn't explain how you keep pointing to wagon resistance but think that both of these people can be scum

Cause that’s not possible?

GOD you’re fucking awful

No it's not possible for 1 mafia to be the cause of "wagon resistance" by themself in a 13 player game

[Dunnstral]

I don't see Cheeky as scum

[Dunnstral]

I wasn't online, I'm never online at that time except for on sat/sun

But even if I was online I'd be second guessing it, and I do prefer lynching nsg

[Dunnstral]

I haven't even remotely caught up and won't until tomorrow evening at the earliest.

VOTE: Dunn

Imagine if it's just Dunn/Gobble/Fish.

(Currently at work and bathroom posting as i realized the submit button only disappears if I quote stuff or add formatting).

Hop 'hopping' Hops

VOTE: gobble

Hop 'hophop' hop

Unexplained vote on me after saying he didn't read (so why did he vote me?) then he calls me scum with Gobble and Fish, then he votes Gobble

[Dunnstral]

Vote Count

northsidegal - 5

(Kittymo, Cephrir, Dunnstral, Formerfish, gobbledygook)

Formerfish - 4

(BBMolla, northsidegal, Dannflor, Espeonage)

gobbledygook - 1

(Hopkirk)

Not Voting - 3

(Auro, CheekyTeeky, Dongempire)

Activity Check - All Good!

Deadline: (expired on 2020-01-17 22:59:30)

Thanks cap.
VOTE: Formerfish

Sorry BB.

VOTE: BBmolla

VOTE: BB

fine

VOTE: bb

If you guys won't go NSG and I can't interest anyone in a Dong lynch I can vote BB.

VOTE: Bb

Sure, tomorrow we can have a better discussion.

VOTE: BB
L1 i think

VOTE: NSG

Good fucking luck honestly glad I won’t have to deal with y’all lmfao later can’t wait to see the L

fuck it

VOTE: NSG

yolo

Thats the worst compromise for me but sure..

VOTE: NSG

Just double checked: Both cephrir and FF unvoted NSG, so NSG is not currently hammered. And we have approximately 40 minutes left; can somebody place the vote?

[Dunnstral]

AKA NSG is L-1 right now

[Dunnstral]

Nevermind, Cephrir voted NSG in 1452. I panicked for nothing

[Dunnstral]

I'm definitely going to be the Night Kill, was fun playing with y'all!

[Dunnstral]

Ok I think I can make my breakdown clear.

NSG flips town. We get absolutely nothing from it.
NSG flips scum. Great.
FF flips scum, great but also we have a bunch of shit to go on from that because they were actually engaged in discourse.
FF flips town, we can actually examine what this means for gamestate based on that fucking discourse.

Both situation are better for flipping FF.

This was a really bad defense of NSG

[Dunnstral]

Oh yeah, that reminds me that Hopkirk is scummy too

I haven't even remotely caught up and won't until tomorrow evening at the earliest.

VOTE: Dunn

Explain why you vote me here if you aren't caught up

You shouldn't have read anything about me saying not to lynch FF at this point - what is your vote based off of

[Dunnstral]

1396 -> 1403 -> 1417 looks pretty bad for you

[Dunnstral]

My kill pool is:

[Esp, Dong, Hopkirk]

This is exactly my kill pool right now

[Dunnstral]

I'm not certain on Espe either

[Dunnstral]

To expand slightly

Because we already discussed scum turbobus strats for white flag in this game I really dont think scum would look to turbobus in this game, at least until maybe late game when theres only 2 of them

1 scum wins the game

What? It literally doesn't

VOTE: Cephrir

You either didnt read your role pm or you're scum. This is such a stupid post to make

You guys both think that mafia lose when there is 1 left, you're just saying it in different ways

[Dunnstral]

There's a change in his trajectory towards NSG without any *new* information

Because it was either NSG or FF, and I wasn't scumreading FF, so I moved to NSG

And my teammates were telling me to go for NSG

[Dunnstral]

Espe seems like the obvious choice, I'm interested to know why Dunn is unsure. Too scummy to be scum?

I'm not fully sold that they are scum instead of playing badly right now

[Dunnstral]

FF is probably town.

VOTE: formerfish

i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum.

The way nsg pops in here, puts down the vote, and then ducks out doesn't strike me as likely to be SvS. Especially the wording of this post, "i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum," she's careful to not even express a scum read on FF. It would be a very strange bus if it was one.

Unless NSG didn't want us to sheep the FF vote, which we would've if she actually cased. Instead, lay a naked vote, and have the third scum try to distract to an entirely new wagon...
Like Dunn->Gobble :D

Sorry for the tinfoil lol

That's not even how events went down though, I pressed NSG on not joining the gobble wagon and then voted her and said I was less sure on gobble

I did some research: nsg never posted in the timeframa that bbmolla was at l-1 for, so she wouldn't be around to quickhammer

[Dunnstral]

When night fell I told my team the nightkill would be either me, Dann, or Kitty - this kill isn't a surprise at all, and Kitty was never going to be lynched in this game

I didn't read up. I can't now either and no idea when I'll be able to next week due to work.

I've seen the lynch. I've lost all respect for NSG as a player. I've lost the respect that I had for RC as a player. I've discussed it with the team- people who've discussed irl how they like RC - and everyone seems to share this view.

I'm especially irritated as this clearly was only allowed due to reputation. A new player in that slot with an 7 day period without content would have been subbed out. When it's clearly strategic since she was playing elsewhere in TM I'm pissed that it was actually allowed and would have been disgusted if she was pulling that as my teammate.

Quoting my post end gimmick because fuck this game.

What did she do that makes you so upset at her?

I mean, I'm a little miffed that the mods didn't respect the rule that says that NSG should have been replaced and her team penalized when it happened, and that could have changed the course of the game because they then counted her vote on FF, but that's not her fault since they allowed that to happen

I think people pushing Dunn is towny but I'm not ready to look into that slot yet.

Cephrir I think you're town. I'll do a more in-depth post soon. I think I was at Hopkirk/Dong with a side serving of Dunn.

Unfortunately, this means that the FF/Dunn team I was dreaming of isn't likely to be a thing. Not impossible, but also unlikely.

Unless NSG didn't want us to sheep the FF vote, which we would've if she actually cased. Instead, lay a naked vote, and have the third scum try to distract to an entirely new wagon...
Like Dunn->Gobble

Sorry for the tinfoil lol

Is this what we're doing today?

[Dunnstral]

Thinking about Gobble and the wagon on NSG and not knowing where the scum actually would be in that scenario unless they were doing literally nothing the entire day.

I assumed I had time to vote around a bit and intended to follow up after I caught up.

I still don't understand why you voted for me, can you expand on this

Dong feels town because of his attacks D2, there's no agenda - will check if he's the kinda scum player who plans their attacks. Also, I think KittyMo NK would've been from someone familiar with her.

What are you talking about? What are the towny attacks you speak of

[Dunnstral]

I don't want to lynch Dannflor, Formerfish, Cephrir, bbmolla, CheekyTeeky, gobbledygook, or Auro today by the way, for various reasons

Which leaves Hopkirk, Espeonage, and DongEmpire

VOTE: DongEmpire

[Dunnstral]

Whatever nsg flips doesnt mean anything. Scum can say "durr if hes town/scum then so and so is scum!!" since they know the flip beforehand. What all of you need to do now is shut up about it, we'll know her role in a few hours.

My team told me this was a scum post if nsg flipped scum, before she flipped scum

Now I'm looking at your day 2 play and I don't like it, and I think you're scummier than Espeonage/Hopkirk

[Dunnstral]

Espeonage I don't think you were correct in saying that we have no information to work with today after an NSG scum flip. I certainly don't feel like I'd be in a better position if we lynched FF and he flipped town

[Dunnstral]

That's not a scum post, that's a Dong post.

Please explain

[Dunnstral]

Why Dong over Hop today?

Some of the things Hopkirk/Espeonage are saying, or rather the way they're going about the game, makes me feel less confident about voting there. I think Dongempire is a pretty good shot at hitting scum. do you disagree?

[Dunnstral]

Again, my teammates having opinions that differ from what I said earlier in the thread on my own is not a contradiction

I was pushing gobble since before NSG/ff became a thing, so it makes sense that I'd want to go back to that.

You can say I tried to divert the NSG lynch all day but the reality is that we would have lynched FF yesterday if I hadn't fought against it. You'll notice that I started talking about BBmolla well after I tried to get an nsg lynch and it looked like Cheeky/Dann and whoever elseweren't willing to join on that, and we still needed a lynch that preferably wasn't FF who I thought was town

[Dunnstral]

That people who are defending Auro are going yeah ok its anti town, but it's also what he does so he's town.

Auro what you're not comprehending is that NSG was never my priority. I already said that my team told me I needed to either case Gobble or join the NSG wagon if I wanted to save FF - and for my part I did both intermittently

[Dunnstral]

That's not a scum post, that's a Dong post.

Please explain

How about this

[Dunnstral]

Whatever nsg flips doesnt mean anything. Scum can say "durr if hes town/scum then so and so is scum!!" since they know the flip beforehand. What all of you need to do now is shut up about it, we'll know her role in a few hours.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=78159&user_select[]=26707

Short ISO read, a towngame of his I was in. His somewhat eccentric admonishing of people is present there also.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=78192&user_select[]=26707

Here too.

I don't get it, what am I looking for that makes 1670 not scummy

[Dunnstral]

I'm interested in a holistic case on Dong rather than individual posts that come off scummy.

Weak posting overall, scumreading people I've been townreading, started to go for FF when nsg picked up, took BBmolla to L-1, only hammered nsg when it became clear that that was what was going to happen

[Dunnstral]

Thanks cap.
VOTE: Formerfish

Nsg/cheeky/maybe hop

I especially didnt like that nsg was MIA and yet former still said she was making it a 1v1, shes not even here

No one said we cant lynch you today and nsg tomorrowz which is my preferred gamestate as of now.

And their post history shows a pattern of shading NSG/voting for somebody else

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn can you explain why you found that post scummy?

My teammate thinks that post is scummy (which is what I said) - I think Dong is voting even if you think that post is NAI, and I don't see that post as town

[Dunnstral]

I think saying he'll vote NSG tomorrow after lynching FF today is scummy - and I truly believe he would have bussed nsg on day 2, after he got his FF mislynch.

Today, he's backing off from FF because he doesn't want to look bad, but that doesn't really match up with what he was saying yesterday.

[Dunnstral]

So yesterday he planned on voting NSG after FF, but today after NSG flips scum he backs off of FF - I think that is for his own survival, and that he is scum

[Dunnstral]

Oh yeah, and his insistence that dong's fate was sealed/the lynch was a forgone conclusion was scummy, especially since he had the ability to change it

[Dunnstral]

*FF's fate

[Dunnstral]

im shading scum so that makes me scum

wtf

Shading them but voting someone else

Lynching FF becomes a lot harder if Nsg is lynched first, I'm sure you planned to bus day 2 because Nsg wouldn't be able to show she was town, and because she would have let the maf team know that

Dunn I'll vote Dong but I'll BoP you on it. I'm slightly concerned most of us are reaching the same conclusions. It's like we've been infiltrated >.>

But you agree that he's scummy. Who are 'most of us' - You, Me, and Dann?

Why am I being BoP'd?

[Dunnstral]

NSG was talking about surviving to day 2 and starting to play then. If she hadnt kept up on that promise she would have been lynched, regardless of whether or not i "bussed" her.

Yes, that's kind of my point:

Shading her would have been scum indicative if she flipped town. Makes no sense for me to do as scum, especially in a game where its very easy to lose as scum due to scum having higher numbers but losing at 1 pop

It makes sense if she's dying day 2 anyway

[Dunnstral]

NSG was talking about surviving to day 2 and starting to play then. If she hadnt kept up on that promise she would have been lynched, regardless of whether or not i "bussed" her.

Yes, that's kind of my point:

Shading her would have been scum indicative if she flipped town. Makes no sense for me to do as scum, especially in a game where its very easy to lose as scum due to scum having higher numbers but losing at 1 pop

It makes sense if she's dying day 2 anyway

Shes not dying d2 if she starts playing that day

If i was scum with her my priority would have been carrying her to d2, not bus her at the smallest opportunity

You're not understanding me:

I don't think she can show she is town day 2, so she is getting lynched, Is essence she's given up, but her team can make the most of a bad situation by mislynching FF first. I also don't think you bussed her, I think you would have voted her day 2 like you said, but I don't think that's towny, I think that's trying to blend in

[Dunnstral]

Okay, i should expand on that a bit.

I reread espeonage and i dont think shes as scummy as cheeky. Most importantly her tone is consistent and i agree with her assesment on not scumreading nsg. I like that she carried that read to this day.

Still her backing off of formerfish once d2 started doesnt bode well but i dont sr her as profusely.

TBH I think Cheeky is playing like scum this game but my team is telling me she's obvtown, and now Dann's teammate thinks she's pretty town

[Dunnstral]

Did you have an opportunity to do that?

[Dunnstral]

Like in what world do my actions make sense as scum here.

Pedit yes. When FF was finally talking with people he was at L-1. Are you actually reading the game? I feel like if you were solving you would've looked into that.

Why would I have looked into that?

??

[Dunnstral]

Okay, i should expand on that a bit.

I reread espeonage and i dont think shes as scummy as cheeky. Most importantly her tone is consistent and i agree with her assesment on not scumreading nsg. I like that she carried that read to this day.

Still her backing off of formerfish once d2 started doesnt bode well but i dont sr her as profusely.

TBH I think Cheeky is playing like scum this game but my team is telling me she's obvtown, and now Dann's teammate thinks she's pretty town

Man can you vote your scumread or are you going to sit on that fence until it ruptures your asshole

I am voting my scumread.

[Dunnstral]

I'm still trusting my team/other people about Cheeky but yikes

[Dunnstral]

I'm still trusting my team/other people about Cheeky but yikes

What is Yikes? Who is saying I'm town on your team and why?

Reasons were not given but MariaR seems pretty confident

[Dunnstral]

Mr Magnum, let's lynch Cheeky's partner if she's scum? Who would her partner be?

I'm not calling cheeky scum

[Dunnstral]

Interesting point on Dong - they've been generally scumread/in the bottom row of people's reads and yet they have not had a serious wagon on them all game.

2 reasons I see for this:
1 - Dong is heavily scumread town being saved for late game by scum.
2 - Dong is scum who is good at being town and avoiding wagons.

Tell me which seems to be the more likely scenario.

Again, there are way more town alive than scum, so this doesn't mean anything

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn: Lmao, I love the tiny jokes you keep posting in game

?

[Dunnstral]

Don't be scummy now I don't want to face the uphill climb of trying to get you lynched.

We should just flashwagon Esp today.

Yeah. That townread on me from Maria is a scumclaim though.

What does that mean?

[Dunnstral]

Again, there are way more town alive than scum, so this doesn't mean anything

Sure it does, it means there is scum in the town leaders. In case you haven't noticed you and Dann have more sway than most this game. But you know this hence you thought one of you two would be NK'd

But... mafia died... And I'm voting Dong right now...

And I thought it would be me, Dann, or Kitty, FTR

[Dunnstral]

You barely fucking talk to me any game and always seem to think what I'm doing is stupid.

This makes sense to me now

[Dunnstral]

Don't be scummy now I don't want to face the uphill climb of trying to get you lynched.

We should just flashwagon Esp today.

Yeah. That townread on me from Maria is a scumclaim though.

What does that mean?

She doesn't know what you are talking about

[Dunnstral]

Sure, Maria never reads me or my alts correctly,

She says she does read you correctly but doesn't know who your alts are (so however she reads those shouldn't factor into this)

Can you link a game where she reads you incorrectly?

each time Dunn has mentioned his teams thoughts they haven't really added up

They add up if you listen to me when I say my team isn't reading the entire game but rather snippets

So this and the town read on me look like ways to maneuver in the game whilst relinquishing accountability.

These words don't mean anything

[Dunnstral]

Yes he's voting them now but I don't see a real lynch Dong trajectory going on right now.

We're at the start of the day and I'm thinking things over

[Dunnstral]

You're going through some real mental gymnastics to keep finding reasons to suspect me, honestly

[Dunnstral]

Btw MariaR is Maki right?

yes

[Dunnstral]

Plot twist. It was Dunn white knighting auro all along. We've been fools. It all makes sense now.

We gotta Lynch ff now. This is too juicy of a weird af reaction to consolidation votes.

Stop being caught up in the fact that you 'defender' NSG, realize she's lurkscum, and help lynch her isntead of doubling down on the idea that you have not not vote her because you defender her at one point

Yes there should be a consolidation of votes; it shouldn't be on a FF wagon where everyone came out of the woodwork and suddenly started scumreading him without talking about it beforehand. Not that people have made their intentions clear I'm talking about it - that's not on me, that's on you guys

Tin foil hat time.

There are two players that have been on two important counter wagon movements today. One is on someone who if town, fits a very strong archetype for white knighting, someone argumentative with a divisive personality and convenient but not necessary valid counterpoint to rally around.

Then, as consolidation happens at end of day with part of it around an easy lurk Lynch and the other on another generally scum lent slot, they launch a second co-ordinated counter wagon movement, one doing with with a tone that felt to me frantic.

I accuse Dunnstral in the Dannflor with the Formerfish. I'd like to check the envelope please.

Is no one else getting klaxons going off in all directions from Dunn's reaction to the FF momentum?

Because that is ringing so clear at me right now.

I thought this was super scummy.

[Dunnstral]

Dong has been trying to lynch me from when I entered unfortunately they picked the wrong LHF.

Lol

Lynch me?

Nah I like the attention from you. When I'm not being scumread is more of a worry.

Did you know that scum take less kindly to being universally townread than town do? Thats because they are afraid of being scumread for valid reasons at some point and not being able to control the narrative once the dominos start falling apart.

A random vote close to deadline doesnt make sense in my opinion.

It wasn't a random vote, it was the hammer. I had specifically asked someone to hammer the post before. Someone was going to do it. NSG was a goner. Why not hammer for the cred? This defense doesn't make sense.

Quoting the last sentence of my post and disregarding everything else doesnt make sense either.

This is getting tiresome. Do you have anything in mind?

I don't like that you come in here and start arguing but only like half argue and not really get the point of anything or really make a good push

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Espeonage

[Dunnstral]

here
here
here
here

These are literally all the games I've played with Maria as Cheeky and you can't tell me she'd ever strongly townread me correctly.

null in 1st game, wrong in the 2nd game, lock town in the last one

[Dunnstral]

More importantly what is your point

[Dunnstral]

2-3 year old games, possibility she doesn't remember it; I'm not lying, I'm relaying what I was told, fact is she does think you're lock town in this game, all you're doing is arguing that she could be wrong

[Dunnstral]

Do you think I'm making up what Maria is saying, or that SHE is lying?

[Dunnstral]

I think your alignment will become more obvious as the game plays on.

If you're not convinced yet you never will be

Eddie's reads are pretty much exactly my reads yet you take it as gospel from him

[Dunnstral]

I don't want to lynch Dannflor, Formerfish, Cephrir, bbmolla, CheekyTeeky, gobbledygook, or Auro today by the way, for various reasons

Which leaves Hopkirk, Espeonage, and DongEmpire

VOTE: DongEmpire

This post was in order of towniest to scummiest, and then towniest to scummiest again

Dann, Dunn, Kitty
FF, Cheeky, BB
Auro, Gobble
Hop
Dong
Esp

And here are eddies reads

And yes, I would have kitty as a top townread

So what's your problem with me?

[Dunnstral]

Don't worry, I don't even remember what you're talking about. I get it, you don't like me

[Dunnstral]

I just get annoyed at you not listening when you're town.

You came into the day and started pushing me, I don't know what I'm "not listening" to - I don't think this happened like you're implying it did

But yes, I've wanted to focus on Espe/Dong instead of this for the longest time, and Auro is being a dumb too now

[Dunnstral]

OK, I can see how you think that

If you had an opportunity to hammer but didn't then you're probably town - that's not something I would have been paying attention to

[Dunnstral]

I think someone has called me scum with literally every wagon that has popped up this game, at some point

[Dunnstral]

UNVOTE:

I'll think about it

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Espeonage

That's my pure mechanical gamesolve

[Dunnstral]

I feel like nsg wouldn't have happened without gobble though