TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Nomnom

Parking this here to start with. Hey nom play for serious please. Of you are town, tell me who scum is

Him has vengeful now FYI

[EspressoPatronum]

Nom* not him

[EspressoPatronum]

Losing the commuter hood power probably means FL and I have one doctor left.

@dave - did you get any information with your JOAT tonight? You'll have at least two more nights of safety to track/watch.

[EspressoPatronum]

DEB I think chenn was killed for being widely townread and for being the JoaT neighborhood's most likely choice of target

Why do you think he was the most likely JOAT target?

[EspressoPatronum]

I think that’s weird because i was pushing Gamma all day yesterday, and I can’t see DEB ever making me loved.

yeah DEB & my group power is making someone loved

I actually voted for someone else (Vex, mostly because I think it's a dumb power and I'd generally prefer for it not to affect the game at all and I didn't think it would be on him) to be loved and assumed that DEB wouldn't submit anything because he's not in the QT very often but it got randomized to you (and DEB mentioned he thought you were town for once in the QT as his one night post but didn't explicitly say he was making you loved

I already said that I don't really want our power to have a major effect in the game so get shrugged at? Like the only scenario I could see it being useful imo is if someone was very lynchbaity but I also thought they were very likely town (Espeonage in Signs & Void in Team Mafia 2015 would be a good example of someone I thought of like that) but there isn't anyone in the game that really fits that imo b/c most of my town reads are either not particularly strong or are pretty consensus in the game (like chennis was)

Who have you used it on so far?

I recall FL saying somewhere that he's loved, but I don't know the other.

Like even using it on Deas yesterday if we could magically change it right after he made his last content post wouldn't have strictly been 'good' even if a lot of people town read him for it, there's a chance the nom wagon picks back up with one day left til deadline but it probably just makes it harder to lynch Deas over lynching no-one at all.

You could always leash it + have town decide your loved target beforehand.

We have enough NK targets between me, dave, and FL that a pre-decided loved target won't instantly get picked off.

VOTE: nomnomnom
To pretty much everyone If you don't think nom is very likely scum atm I'd like to hear why.

It makes sense to lynch nom now. If nom is scum, we need to deal with the vengeful before it's an endgame threat. If she's town, she can at least aim for scum. There's a benefit in keeping town!nom alive until lategame because scum won't lynch her, but I don't think the benefit of that scenario outweighs the negatives of a scum!nom scenario.

[EspressoPatronum]

dave said they targeted him n1 and n2

With their inventor ability.

I'd have thought he'd switch it up with the JOAT.

[EspressoPatronum]

But who knows... maybe he watched chenn last night. We'll have to see.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Gamma why did you want chenn as a loved target?

[EspressoPatronum]

I think we should just lynch Flavor tbh.

Feels like thing pointing to him Flavor

As long as FL and I are alive, they have to spend a kill to stop the doctor ability.

I'd rather not make their job easier.

[EspressoPatronum]

I think we should just lynch Flavor tbh.

Feels like thing pointing to him Flavor

As long as FL and I are alive, they have to spend a kill to stop the doctor ability.

I'd rather not make their job easier.

who did you two decide to protect last night btw?

Dave

[EspressoPatronum]

Crappy thing is, lynching EP or Myself confirms the other as town.

How does it confirm?

Because we'll die when we use the lightning rod + reroute the scum kill onto us.

I think the commuters were the only way for us to stay alive.

[EspressoPatronum]

@dave - did you get any information with your JOAT tonight? You'll have at least two more nights of safety to track/watch.

My action was not blocked. Nothing learned unfortunately.

Who did you target and why?

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't really understand the fb thing, don't really care.

FB getting removed from the commuter hood means nom gets the LMS without FB needing to die. If FB is town, he's now hoodless. I think that means he's vanilla now.

Can we kill in EP/FL/DEB now? They'll be forced to use their 1 shot (at least EP/FL) nad if they don't it's a scum claim That's also a way to get a free lynch back right?

Two questions:
1. Why do you think voting in me and FL is a good idea?
2. Why do you think mine and FL's LMS gives us a free lynch back?

[EspressoPatronum]

Who did you target and why?

Answering would likely reveal which action is still available, which is suboptimal for town.
If I used track then someone I thought was scum. If watch, town. If I didn't trust docs then commute is a possibility.

Fair point, but you should consider full claiming within 2 or 3 nights.

If you die before FL or I die, then either:
- FL is scum and didn't protect you with me, causing our protect to randomize
- the roleblockers are majority scum + targeted FL and I
- some other shenanigans happened

In most of the above cases, someone needs to effectively scumclaim for you to die.

[EspressoPatronum]

what's odd about it and why is it more likely to come from scum than town in your opinion?

I see a few walls I'd like to read more closely and posts I'd like to respond to, but I likely won't have time until Thursday. Sorry, all.

@ me if you have anything short you'd like to ask me.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hmm, I didn't mean to quote Gamma's post there.

[EspressoPatronum]

I almost want to vote Ank here, there's something that pings me about how she's handling this conversation.

I think this is scummy of her.

I'll get the ball rolling.

VOTE: Ank

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]Even today, almost all of EP's posts are simply explaining exactly the same things you have, except in a much more bland way, and a single lukewarm stance on wanting to lynch nom.

That's it.

You're talking as if I've been present for most of the in-game day. I was VLA for several days and was clear that my week has been busy.

Pretending that I've been in here giving a bunch of bland posts is disingenuous.

[EspressoPatronum]

@MariaR - to answer your question earlier -- I townread dave more than I believed in the DV/Dave scum dichotomy. As such, I've removed my scum inventor + scum RBer theory from my read on you. I disliked your posts yesterday, but your posts today look better.

Regarding the reads on my slot (Ank, MariaR, EC), I would encourage anyone to review some of my past games. My playstyle often leaves people with scummy vibes, as you will see in several of my games. My first Newbie game, Pokemon Ruby, and Make Me Regret This Upick are all examples of people scumreading me for reasons similar to your scumreads of me this game. As FL can attest, I warned him about this in our hood several days ago... my playstyle often looks scummy.

FYI - I have no scum games with which to compare because I've never rolled scum on site.

@Ank -- you're still scum.

[EspressoPatronum]

@panth - I'd enjoy it if panth dialed back the toxicity a bit.

Scumreading someone (ie. nom) shouldn't be a free pass to treat them poorly... even if they're not playing to your expectations.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't wanna think about Ank being scum because if I have to get into a 1v1 with Ank I'll lose. Her recent posting is really bad, but it begs the question why did she basically save the nom wagon. And while yes EC can make those notes as scum really, he doesn't need to.

Gobble thinks Ank is using nom as a way to gain a better position in the late game.

As long as I'm still alive, you won't have to 1v1 Ank.

[EspressoPatronum]

@panth - I'd enjoy it if panth dialed back the toxicity a bit.

Scumreading someone (ie. nom) shouldn't be a free pass to treat them poorly... even if they're not playing to your expectations.

Wow we're counting this as toxicity? Y'all wouldn't have lasted a single game back in my day. Rabble rabble get off my lawn.

Yes, I would count excessive hostility and rudeness as toxicity. I'm not really concerned what the games were like back in your day as long as its unacceptable today.

Please don't take it personally. Just trying to keep things civil.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]Even today, almost all of EP's posts are simply explaining exactly the same things you have, except in a much more bland way, and a single lukewarm stance on wanting to lynch nom.

That's it.

You're talking as if I've been present for most of the in-game day. I was VLA for several days and was clear that my week has been busy.

Pretending that I've been in here giving a bunch of bland posts is disingenuous.

The frequency is irrelevant. The relevant point is that what you had posted is all drivel.

I point you to Exhibit A:

@Ank Feel free to ignore that wall, too. People will forget about it in a few days + you can resume your discrediting campaign.

[EspressoPatronum]

Now EP is voting my biggest townread?

Yes, Ank is my biggest scumread.

Can you walk me through your townread of her?

[EspressoPatronum]

Now EP is voting my biggest townread?

Yes, Ank is my biggest scumread.

Can you walk me through your townread of her?

I think it's mostly due to the amount of pro-town effort they are putting forth, it all seems very genuine to me.

Two questions:
1. Do you think scum!Ank would be capable of putting in the same level of effort?
2. What specific posts or stances have been pro-town to you?

[EspressoPatronum]

@panth - I'd enjoy it if panth dialed back the toxicity a bit.

Scumreading someone (ie. nom) shouldn't be a free pass to treat them poorly... even if they're not playing to your expectations.

Wow we're counting this as toxicity? Y'all wouldn't have lasted a single game back in my day. Rabble rabble get off my lawn.

Yes, I would count excessive hostility and rudeness as toxicity. I'm not really concerned what the games were like back in your day as long as its unacceptable today.

Please don't take it personally. Just trying to keep things civil.

If nom want to stop being called a useless slot, she is welcome to do something useful. I do not consider anything I've don't to be executively rude or hostile

For what it's worth, I agree that nom giving her reads would be helpful. I just think attacking her play is unnecessary, as you did here:

Lmao I expected you to gun me down. You have played like shit, so gunning me down would just be par for the course

_______________
Re: the reads point - bob says that if nom and FB are town, scum may have given nom the shot if her reads were off.

Bob also says that if he were scum though, he'd want to ensure the vengeful went to scum.

[EspressoPatronum]

@nom do you think FB is town?

[EspressoPatronum]

@nom do you think FB is town?

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah??? question mark???

If you think FB is town and town!you fypv knows you're town, then you know scum gave you the venge for a reason. It'd be best to give us your reads so we can compare them to FB.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

Regarding the reads on my slot (Ank, MariaR, EC), I would encourage anyone to review some of my past games. My playstyle often leaves people with scummy vibes, as you will see in several of my games. My first Newbie game, Pokemon Ruby, and Make Me Regret This Upick are all examples of people scumreading me for reasons similar to your scumreads of me this game. As FL can attest, I warned him about this in our hood several days ago... my playstyle often looks scummy.

Go with me on this one, what about your playstyle do you think makes people consider you scummy? Also, since you think Ank and myself are on the scummy side of things how does this effect your read on well, everyone I suppose? Has your own self meta that we’re not aware of gone into your reads. Like, ‘Why is X townreading me’ ‘Y scumreading me makes sense.’ I don’t like to look at meta myself, but you should get where my line of questioning is going.

Playstyle

I believe the primary reason for my playstyle seeming scummy is because I learned forum mafia on a different site. I have observed that site meta (or site culture, even) and conformity with said meta plays a big role in people's early reads on one another, as there isn't a lot else to go off of. Since I learned in and prefer a different site meta, people mistake my different focus for scumminess. This early scumread on me usually subsides over time though, as I apparently end up obvtowning eventually. I caught a ton of flak for my interest in mechanics and flavour in Mainstream Mafia II, but most people came around to it eventually.

The secondary reason is the way I type +/ post. I try to keep my posts analytical and point-first, tending toward lists and organization to help the reader stay with me. In my Coalition game, Spangled repeatedly scumread me for a "weirdly formal" tone or something like that. I have no interest in changing my writing style, so I'll just have to live with this one.

Site Meta

The primary differences to this site were:
- shorter days with a majority lynch at the end of the day (eg. 2 real days with a lynch on the biggest wagon at day-end)
- there was only ever one or two games ongoing at one time. As a product of this, the games tend to have more players
- since there were more players, there were more roles. More roles = more mechanics. While I think I picked up my mechanical interest from large F2F Werewolf/mafia games, these games also played a factor in shaping my interest.
- lots of people like reads lists in those games. While I see many people use reads lists on this site, I've noticed a general reluctance to consolidate reads into one post. In any event, full reads lists feel rarer here.

My Reads

Regarding how I interpret those scumreads on me -- I don't put much weight into the early scumreads of me based on my mechanical focus or analytical reasoning. It's sometimes annoying, but I try not to focus on it too much. Instead, I try to engage with

why

people dislike the mechanics +/ my reasoning. If the 'why' doesn't hold up to scrutiny +/ it looks like they're going for an easy lynch, I tend to find that player scummy. I used this method to help me get a read on you, chenn, dave, and I think a few others when you were all saying you disliked the neighbourhood distribution reveal. If you look back, your and Chenn's initial reluctance to engage with my reasoning caused me to scumlean you. I ended up changing to a townread on both of you for different reasons, and again changing my read on you for different reasons later.

Regarding how my read on you and Ank has affected my other reads --
Ank -- I've been wary about joining Ank's targets. She's mostly made it easy for me bcz she's scumreading a lot of my townreads, but the tough one for me was DV. Ank posted a scumread list a while ago listing me, FL, A50, and DV as her top scumreads. My team and I have a townread on A50, so I assumed Ank would be bussing DV. Now that he flipped, I'm not so sure. In any event, Ank has been consistently pushing mislynches (especially fmpv, as I know I'm town), so she's pretty much lockscum for me.

You -- as I mentioned yesterday, the foundation of my scumread on you came from the inventor+RB theory. Your teamwork with Ank yesterday set off a lot of alarm bells for me + solidified my read on you. Given DV's flip and your behaviour today, I'm less sure of you. I'd say it's more of a nullscum now.

I don't wanna think about Ank being scum because if I have to get into a 1v1 with Ank I'll lose. Her recent posting is really bad, but it begs the question why did she basically save the nom wagon. And while yes EC can make those notes as scum really, he doesn't need to.

Gobble thinks Ank is using nom as a way to gain a better position in the late game.

As long as I'm still alive, you won't have to 1v1 Ank.

You’re making the pot look real sweet at the moment. I suppose I didn’t really look at this outlook.[...]

Haha, I do what I can.

[EspressoPatronum]

like

do you know why I haven't engaged EP at all like the last 3-4 times he engaged me?

it's because I know that it's going to do nothing to convince people of my scumread on him, he's no threat because he's not going to be able to convince anybody that don't already think I'm scum that I'm scum (and that hasn't gotten him anywhere either), and the risk of people just tuning both of us out through an extended 1v1 engagement is an inherently worse thing for me than him

there's literally no reason for me to engage him, so I don't.

You haven't engaged with me because you can't do so without arguing in bad faith.

I engaged with your posts and even read through your linked games. I pointed you to games that would answer EC's playstyle SR on me, but it's evident you haven't looked into them.

The best way for you to discredit me is to pretend I don't matter. I'm not going away any time soon.

[EspressoPatronum]

Team reads:
Ank - Gobble and Mena both think Ank is scum.

MariaR - Gobble says MariaR has consistently done a town tell, but he was also iffy on yesterday's posts. I'll have to see what everyone thinks on the recent posts.

FB - Gobble and bob think FB is probably town. Mostly for mechanical reasons surrounding the commuter hood removal.

Nom - Gobble and bob think nom is probably scum. In part due to yesterday's posts + in part due to the commuter hood LMS.

FL - Gobble thinks FL is town. Mostly due to town meta play.


@DEB - do you think Mena would be able to accurately read you this game? Why/why not?

[EspressoPatronum]

My hood certainly has gotten interesting within the last page. I don't know if it means anything, but I'm noted the sudden change of reads and influence.

I'm mixed on panth but I trust kuribo. What do they think?

[EspressoPatronum]

My hood certainly has gotten interesting within the last page. I don't know if it means anything, but I'm noted the sudden change of reads and influence.

that's spicy

what has changed?

Kuri said a lot of his tr on you was from EC and kinda gave some reasons to vote you that I nodded along to. Panth is all of a sudden thinking someone in our hood could be scum. Now, normally this would be fine but the timing of this makes me perk an eyebrow.

My hood certainly has gotten interesting within the last page. I don't know if it means anything, but I'm noted the sudden change of reads and influence.

I'm mixed on panth but I trust kuribo. What do they think?

Other way around for me. I still think Vex was super towny and town slipped. We vibed super well in the hood. If I'm mixed on anyone it's Kuri. Why do you think I'm voting Ank? She like, solves 2 slots for me that make it almost easy win

It's worth mentioning that I incorrectly read kuribo in both games I've played with him, so take my read on him lightly

He (as scum) was my top TR in Pastries before he ended up subbing out.

I had him as scumlean for a while in the Purge II. He and I died to NKs too soon for my read to change, but I'll count it as incorrect bcz he was town.

[EspressoPatronum]

Do you remember how FL has taken potshots at me all game and tried to wagon me and now he magically does not speak my name or vote me when the traction to vote me is gone? Cause I sure do.

Yes, I have, and if you’d notice, the opportunity and traction to vote you came up and I have yet to vote you, which contradicts this line of reasoning.

Don’t act like you’re special with the potshots being thrown at you all game, I’m throwing pot shots all over the place when people need a pot shot at them.

You should put the pots away for now and load up a real shot against Ank. All aboard the Ank wagon!

[EspressoPatronum]

You can't just declare yourself a town leader and expect people to fall in line


"I've been trying to rally people since day 3"


Ohhhh right but nobody listened, and it's because we don't trust you.

And by rally, she means continually telling us we're going to lose to a scum sweep.

I've never been to such a demoralizing rally before.

[EspressoPatronum]

@nom @FB who did you commute last night?

@Gamma @DEB - Who have you made loved?

I can't remember if you've said already, but I think the knowledge would be useful.

[EspressoPatronum]

@EP - DEB already said we made Ank loved

Hey Ank, I’ve got a message from Math

Spoiler:

This is still possible, don’t give up. Don’t play into their hands, Scum WANTS you demoralized.
I agree full heartedly, you have been our leader, don’t leave us.

Btw, I wanna bring something iffy up that I’m thinking about.
So Chenn was the kill last night, and guess who wanted to use our power to make Chenn loved?
Gamma said they wanted to make Chenn loved, which, I wasn’t necessarily against. But I wanted to make Ank loved. Now, I made my small case and Gamma said they’d vote Ank along with me. Once I saw the kill flip I got to thinking. IF Gamma was scum, wouldn’t wanting Chenn loved right before he gets killed make sense? This would effectively render our group power useless for the night.
Also, if Chenn was so widely townread, what’s the point in wanting to use our group loved shot on him? He was not going to be wagoned/lynched.
I’m not outright calling gamma scum, but I feel very suspicious rn. What do y’all think?

Ah right, thank you for the reminder.

Can you tell me who the third is/was + when you targeted them?

I have FL as a loved target, but I'm unclear if he was on N1 or N2.

[EspressoPatronum]

@DEB did you target Ank to be loved last night?

Also, who did you target N1?

[EspressoPatronum]

@nom @FB who did you commute last night?

@Gamma @DEB - Who have you made loved?

I can't remember if you've said already, but I think the knowledge would be useful.

No one

Nom said in PT she would commute ank

Weird. Why didn't you choose anyone?

@nom why did you commute Ank instead of one of the doctors?

[EspressoPatronum]

In my massclaim, I said the lightning rod is X-shot. FL and I specifically talked about doing this in our hood to make it seem stronger + thus more of a threat to scum.

MASSCLAIM:
Hood: Leading Actors
Members: EP, FL, X Elements
Power: Doctor
LMS: X-shot lightning rod

So, @Ank, how did you know it was a 1-shot

before

anyone in the thread mentioned it?

RED ALERT

Please finish the massclaim:

Almost50 - Ankamius - Chennisden

- Vote Remove / Vigilante

Elements - EspressoPatronum - Flavor Leaf

- Doctor / 1shot Lightning Rod

Firebringer - nomnomnom - Volpe14

- Commuter / Vengeful

Kuribo - MariaR - Panthaleon

- Roleblocker / ???

Dr Easy Bake - Gammagooey - Volxen

- ??? / ???

Davesaz - Deasvail - Farkran

- Inventor / ???

Basically everything is out already so there's no reason to just leave the rest unclaimed

(this message from EC)

[EspressoPatronum]

Detective EP solves another case!

And for dramatic effect....

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Ank

[EspressoPatronum]

How about EC was the one keeping track of this shit since he was the one that wanted a massclaim

Then please ask EC where he learned that the X-shot was 1-shot

[EspressoPatronum]

In my massclaim, I said the lightning rod is X-shot. FL and I specifically talked about doing this in our hood to make it seem stronger + thus more of a threat to scum.

MASSCLAIM:
Hood: Leading Actors
Members: EP, FL, X Elements
Power: Doctor
LMS: X-shot lightning rod

So, @Ank, how did you know it was a 1-shot

before

anyone in the thread mentioned it?

RED ALERT

Please finish the massclaim:

Almost50 - Ankamius - Chennisden

- Vote Remove / Vigilante

Elements - EspressoPatronum - Flavor Leaf

- Doctor / 1shot Lightning Rod

Firebringer - nomnomnom - Volpe14

- Commuter / Vengeful

Kuribo - MariaR - Panthaleon

- Roleblocker / ???

Dr Easy Bake - Gammagooey - Volxen

- ??? / ???

Davesaz - Deasvail - Farkran

- Inventor / ???

Basically everything is out already so there's no reason to just leave the rest unclaimed

(this message from EC)

Good catch! Good catch indeed!!

The problem is this has like 1163 different explanations!

Like, Scum!Ank slipped? She either knew it from you (EP) or from FL... OR made a logical deduction (how many shots does a Lightening Rod usually get anyway??), or it was mentioned in the Scum PT with NEITHER FL/EP being Scum, or it was her skimming and not paying much attention... etc.

These are all possible. It's also possible that scum has individual powers akin to the revealing powers.

I'm not so much concerned which specific scenario gave her the information, rather than the fact that she had the information before it was public knowledge.

She had the chance to tell us, but she instead decided to deflect by joking and then deflect again onto EC.

Town!Ank ALSO could've skimmed and made that assumption, or could have deduced it. She obviously would not have learned about it from either of FL/EP nor would she have read in the Scum PT, but she could also be making a WRONG assumption and you really are X shot (where X > 1, which is unlikely but theoretically valid).

Oh, wait! It could have been from her TEAM PT (and it still could be Town or Scum).

I'll spare you what the other 1153 explanations are for now (saving some space and time), but to sum it all up.. this is NAI. (Note: NAI as IT COULD BE TRUE IR IT COULD BE FALSE).

You're right... It could be NAI. It could also be a scum slip.

In light of several other reasons to scumread Ank - many of which I've outlined in past posts - I think it's a scum slip.

My question here is: WHAT DO SCUM GAIN FROM A LIGHTNING ROD ABILITY?? Do they want to redirect the kill unto themselves?? If so, WHY THE HELL DID THEY SABOTAGE THE COMMUTER HOOD BEFOREHAND? It was their ONLY way to survive without being sus as hell. (Note: FL declared he won't be using the ability and it does look bad on him of he doesn't die either way).

Still, I don't think the designers decided to factor in precisely THAT, and thus still think EP/FL are both Town, hence Ank could not have learned about the 1-shot thing from either, and thus it still is bloody NAI in my book.

What if she learned it by other means?

P.S. I could very much bend my narrative ANYWAY you like me to. I mean, Yes.. Ank is Scum with FL and you can reread the whole game and find a load of fitting evidence. Or you can assume Ank is Town and EP is Scum trying to capitalize on an honest mistake and you still could find enough evidence to support the case too.

Do you think all of my other posts outlining Ank's scumminess are disingenuous?

Now another question: Why would Scum want to give ME the Vig shot?? I don't think ANYONE would be able to guess whom I might shoot (not even I tbh) at this point.

So, you see.. this -and more- is all going through my head, and I don't know what to do!

These are all great considerations. You could also ask yourself why town wants you to get the vig. To answer that, I suggest you shoot nom.

Shooting nom nullifies the risk of scum!nom venge killing someone, but it opens us to the risk of town!nom losing a venge kill on potential scum.

As it stands, my team and I think you're far more likely town than nom, so I'd rather give you the choice to kill than nom.

[EspressoPatronum]

Like what exactly

I have one example.

When I questioned you on your weak push on me earlier, you hid behind your teammates' reads instead of standing behind the push.

I'm certain there's more, but that one jumped to mind.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Ank, please see the "you're dodging my questions" section below for an illustration of my comment in 5731

if you think you can turn that into a scumcase, then by all means

In addition to your disingenuous pushes on me, I present the following:

You only vote safe wagons

How about the fact that you're always pushing the lowest resistance wagons?
D1 - Elements (town), EP
D2 - volxen (3p), EP, nom
D3 - FB, DEB, EP, nom

In the current gamestate, calling any of me, FB, nom, DEB scum isn't exactly a risky move. You've been doing the same thing in past days, too. Pushing Elements, volxen, me, and nom is past days was always safe. Even your #hotake today that nom is town came after the nom wagon started losing steam. Once again, a safe move that won't rock the boat.

This game is inconsistent with your town meta

You said:

[...]
if you looked at the three games I consider my strongest performances on the site as a whole (the three I gave are only from this year), you'll see that those games basically never feature a successful scum push from me.

My strongest town games come from me shutting down town lynches and reframing the town's mind from an incorrect one to a correct one

. doing this correctly basically puts town in a position where it doesn't even matter if I'm there or not, they will be able to close out the game and scum can't do anything without outing themselves.

Please show me how your gameplay here has been reframing the town perspective when you're consistently pushing easy wagons.

Your recent play has been the exact opposite of shutting down wagons. You're the main pusher behind most of your wagons. And before you cite the gamestate as an excuse, recall that we've only gotten 1 lynch so far. Elements for modkilled, so that's not on us.

You're dodging questions

When I call you out on your scummy behaviour, you either ignore me (4452) or deflect onto your team (see below).

Gobble wants to know why Ank is voting me today when she wanted nom as the counterwagon.

If Ank is town, doesn't that make nom look worse in Ank's eyes? Where does the vote on me come from?

I've mentioned already that a lot of why I'm on you is because two of my teammates specifically scumread you (dannflor) or want you lynched today (eddie cane)

I'm personally not townreading you and afaik they aren't thinking of nom anywhere near as scummy as you, so I'm ok with being swayed by that

You can find other instances of Ank dodging my questions on a brief skim through both our ISOs.

Your votes today are scummy

Every single one of your posts today has been taking safe bets.

VOTE: Dr Easy Bake

VOTE: nomnomnom

VOTE: Firebringer

fuck it we're killing this

VOTE: nomnomnom

As an aside

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

That post wasn't town

VOTE: nomnomnom

dann smacked my brain

UNVOTE: nomnomnom

I need to check some things

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

EC is on board with a50/FL/EP as scum
Dann thinks EP has the highest odds of flipping scum of the four

With the exception of your recent town!nom take (which again, came after the wagon started losing steam), I haven't seen you shut down any of these popular wagons.

Your purported town game is one of shutting down town mislynches and reorienting the town. Your gameplay today stands in stark contrast to these goals.

Here's a other example of you deflecting answers onto your team:

EC is on board with a50/FL/EP as scum

But you said he had a HARD TOWN READ on me earlier. Now what exactly has changed in "less than one complete cycle"?

I shat my thought process all over the discord

Having it in your discord doesn't help us at all.

Please walk us through your thought process.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'd hope it would be clear in 4673 that I swayed him but I guess not
I'd hope it would be clear in 3556 that they swayed me but I guess not

You're giving the result when we're repeatedly asking for the process. That's scummy.

[EspressoPatronum]

Like what the actual fuck is this

Do I speak some Martian language that make people not understand what subtlety is or do I need to always be talking like I'm in a room full of toddlers

Clarity helps town.

"Sublety" is one of many excuses behind which scum can hide.

And btw I did answer the ignoring thing indirectly when I said what fights I pick but I suppose I wasted my breath there too!

Correct me if I'm wrong... are you saying you answered my case by saying you choose not to engage with it?

[EspressoPatronum]

@nom if you think Ank and FB are scum, you should vote Ank today. We can free up A50 to vig, which forces scum to pick between dave, the doctors, and A50.

[EspressoPatronum]

A message from Eddie Cane!

btw, EP, since you're newer to the game, I'll take the time to go into this and why it's nonsense. none of it acknowledges the point that scum would be more careful to keep things consistent, and therefore are less likely to "scum slip" than town are.

1. if it's not a scum slip, then it's just not a scum slip. it explains itself.

2. if it IS a scumslip, then you are arguing that it's a Ank+FL scumteam, because a town!EP knows that it's not a Ank+EP scumteam.

2-b. here's the issue with this; you've shot down everything that would indicate a scum!FL, so you need to either accept that FL is just scum or acknowledge that this is just not an actual scum slip.

Thanks for laying this out. I appreciate it, EC

0. You're right, scum are careful to keep things consistent. However, I don't see why I should dismiss the possibility of TMI when it becomes apparent.

1. Totally fair. I have no way of knowing though, so I'm free to consider this equally with other explanations for your extra knowledge.

2. This is a false dichotomy. Ank + FL is indeed a possiblity, but it is not the only possibility fmpv. Per the power revealer roles, I know (or at least can logically assume) scum have secret roles. Even if FL is town, it's still possible for scum!Ank to acquire the 1-shot knowledge.

[EspressoPatronum]

pedit: Yeah Ank it's cool and we get a free ML if we lynch in the lighting rod hood

Not anymore. The lightning rod no longer provides a free ML bcz we lost the commuter hood.

[EspressoPatronum]

pedit: Yeah Ank it's cool and we get a free ML if we lynch in the lighting rod hood

Not anymore. The lightning rod no longer provides a free ML bcz we lost the commuter hood.

We have Dave's JOAT right?

If FL flips town you're probably scum but you already promised to use the lighting rod shot etc so you're outted in that example.
But if FL flips scum you have 2 options A) Use the Lighting rod or B) Don't. The thing is if mafia risks trying to kill or not because Dave can just use his watcher shot and A50 doesn't use the vig. Get the idea? Scum risk outting.

My assumption was that dave's commute is a self commute.

@dave can you clarify?

[EspressoPatronum]

Lmao, now I have FL in the doctor hood telling MariaR he needs her vote on Ank.

Is this some next level attempt at derailing an Ank wagon? Or did FL just slip??

[EspressoPatronum]

Lmao, now I have FL in the doctor hood telling MariaR he needs her vote on Ank.

Is this some next level attempt at derailing an Ank wagon? Or did FL just slip??

I'm not sure I understand

How close am I able to replicate/paraphrase the message without quoting it?

[EspressoPatronum]

I said I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Not Panth or FB.

2 separate posts. I didn’t look at it like that, but I guess I see why he’d call it out like that.

This is correct.

[EspressoPatronum]

Lmao, now I have FL in the doctor hood telling MariaR he needs her vote on Ank.

Is this some next level attempt at derailing an Ank wagon? Or did FL just slip??

Maria’s vote was already on Ank. I was telling you I wanted your vote on one of them.

But my vote was also on Ank already

[EspressoPatronum]

Lmao, now I have FL in the doctor hood telling MariaR he needs her vote on Ank.

Is this some next level attempt at derailing an Ank wagon? Or did FL just slip??

? My vote is already on Ank? Is this some last ditch effort or something? No, FL isn't the selfless type.

I have no idea what's going on... that's why I brought it up to the group. I

Why would FL ask for your vote on Ank in the doctor PT?

I already asked my team what they think. More to come when they weigh in.

[EspressoPatronum]

If FB and Ank are scum together with additional powers, Ank's power is better.

Agreed. Or they want to deflect off Ank long enough to kill A50 and nullify our vig shot(s).

[EspressoPatronum]

FL can you remind me which hood you're in and with who I have a short memory

He's in a hood with just me. Elements was our third but died.

[EspressoPatronum]

UNVOTE:
Gobble has advised I unvote until we sort out what happened in my hood.

[EspressoPatronum]

What exactly are you trying to sort out?[...]

Whether FL accidentally posted in the doc hood instead of the Scum PT.

If it's the scum PT, then you and FL are scum. If it's just a miscommunication, then I'll go back on my merry way.

[EspressoPatronum]

What exactly are you trying to sort out?[...]

Whether FL accidentally posted in the doc hood instead of the Scum PT.

If it's the scum PT, then you and FL are scum. If it's just a miscommunication, then I'll go back on my merry way.

How do you plan to sort something like that?

Three ways:
1. Ask you guys
2. Ask my team
3. Ask FL in my hood to explain what he intended to do/say with that post

Help me out with 1. What do you think?

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't know it's just a weird time for you to be unvoting Ank to me and using that 'logic' when it's just, not a thing. I'm literally getting told to ignore you. But that's just mean

I agree that it's a weird time, but I'd carve out a nuance there and say it was also a weird time for FL's posts in my hood. My posts were a reaction to his posts.

I'm also not sure if it's logic. I'm conveying facts + I'm looking for guidance on how to interpret them.

Thanks for keeping an open dialogue. Imo, the best thing townies can do is to maintain communication with everyone. I've had surprising results at helping to build town cores by just being pleasant.

[EspressoPatronum]

From gobble:
@MariaR why does an Ank scum flip make me town and FL scum?

@Ank what do you think of the FL+MariaR hood stuff?

Gobble suggests we lynch MariaR or lynch nom+venge MariaR to test it. A MariaR scum flip strongly suggests FL is scum.

[EspressoPatronum]

What about your Ank stuff??

If we're lynching someone else than Ank, it's FB.

If the FL stuff is real, then all my Ank stuff is possibly wrong.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah I agree. I just think it's just better to lynch FB in that case though, I demonstrated clear logic as to why he's scum. This gamestate is the proof of it.

VOTE: FB

How does the gamestate prove FB is scum?

And further, if we're looking at FL+Maria vs Ank, why vote outside of that?

The reason gobble suggested killing you was because I told him a MariaR lynch would probably be tough to get through today. Killing you and having you venge her achieves the same result, albeit in an inefficient manner.

[EspressoPatronum]

EP

Can you paraphrase your entire neighborhood for me please

Will do. It will take a while though.

I'm busy tonight and tomorrow, but I should be able to find some time on Wednesday or Thursday.

[EspressoPatronum]

Haven't had a chance to read Ank's solve fully, but I've skimmed it and the following pages.

VOTE: nomnom

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Ank

Can you explain why you voted here?

You haven't talked about Ank much recently, so the naked vote comes as a bit of a surprise.

[EspressoPatronum]

@A50 - I really don't see why town with a vig shot won't shoot someone. Why does Ank's flip impact your decision?

[EspressoPatronum]

Or rather, the result* of Ank's flip.

Of course her flip will impact your decision.... because you won't get the vig LMS if she doesn't flip.

[EspressoPatronum]

@ Dave

VOTE: Ank

Can you explain why you voted here?

You haven't talked about Ank much recently, so the naked vote comes as a bit of a surprise.

[EspressoPatronum]

Also @dave. You should consider claiming your action I'm case you die tonight. An Ank flip will force the doctors to choose between protecting you and A50. I'd rather keep the decision unknown to the full group in a potential effort to confuse scum.

If you are still opposed to a full claim, I propose you at least soft claim in the following way:
"If I watched last night, I targeted X and got Y result" in addition to "if I tracked last night, I targeted X and got Y result"

[EspressoPatronum]

@ Dave

VOTE: Ank

Can you explain why you voted here?

You haven't talked about Ank much recently, so the naked vote comes as a bit of a surprise.

I replied to that.

Ah, with this:

With a few people comparing sizes of their

body parts

and some of the same and others doing nothing but whine about the game state, I figured we need some

wagons

.

I didn't realize that was a response to me.

It explains why you voted somewhere, but it doesn't necessarily explain why you chose Ank. Surely you decided on Ank over nom (or any other wagon contender) for a reason.

I kinda also wanted to see who would comment, if anyone.

Have any of the comments to your vote been helpful to you?

[EspressoPatronum]

I say we just vote nom. It's possible she's scum + the two flips might help with sorting.

[EspressoPatronum]

The result of today has been a lot of uncertainty for me, so I'd benefit from the extra information gained from the venge kill.

[EspressoPatronum]

A guy I used to play with often took a list of everyone's reads to see who floated to the top.

If everyone could humour me for a bit, can you please fill in your top 3 scumreads? It doesn't necessarily have to be a 3-team solve... just 3 ppl who you scumread independently.

Ankamius -
Dr Easy Bake -
Flavor Leaf -
davesaz -
panthaleon -
MariaR -
Gammagooey -
kuribo -
Firebringer -
EspressoPatronum - nom/Ank/MariaR
Almost50 -
nomnomnom -

[EspressoPatronum]

I feel like vengeing dave is going to result in the highest likelihood of just flipping scum but I understand that half the game is going to get their panties in a bunch for asking to shoot an investigative so who the hell knows

I'd say we give dave one more night. It'll allow him to have used watcher + tracker and report the findings.

[EspressoPatronum]

gamma/davesaz/kuribo/mariar

where I'm leaning atm, not necessarily in that order

Thanks, Ank. I'll add those in once a few more people respond.

[EspressoPatronum]

A guy I used to play with often took a list of everyone's reads to see who floated to the top.

If everyone could humour me for a bit, can you please fill in your top 3 scumreads? It doesn't necessarily have to be a 3-team solve... just 3 ppl who you scumread independently.

Ankamius - davesaz/kuribo/MariaR
Dr Easy Bake -
Flavor Leaf -
davesaz -
panthaleon - DEB/Nom/kuribo
MariaR -
Gammagooey - nom/DEB/FL
kuribo - Ank/DEB/panth
Firebringer -
EspressoPatronum - nom/Ank/MariaR
Almost50 -
nomnomnom -

@Ank - fyi I picked 3 from your 4. If you'd prefer a different 3, please let me know.

Spoiler: posts added

gamma/davesaz/kuribo/mariar

where I'm leaning atm, not necessarily in that order

My dudes I'm not scum. But like w/e this game hasn't been fun, the last time I posted I got screamed down by kuribo, and I'm coming off of frustrating real life nonsense.

VOTE: kuribo

This game had been a shameful display of incomprehensibly poor and anti town play. Whoever you town folks are, I am disappointed.

Oh but real life stuff can't possibly be the reason for you not posting or being "off" since that's why you claim to scumread me


Xtoxm pointed out how scummy as fuck it is to try and claim a scumread on someone for not posting during VLA

you god damn right you got yelled at because you pulled a bullshit move that runs counter to fucking years of mafiascum etiquette

Now this is the last I'm gonna say in the subject, since you're going through some shit and unlike you I have some Fucking decency.


Ank/DEB/panth


I'll vote any of those three and that's it.

EC is still telling me to vote nom

VOTE: nomnomnom

thank you thank you thank you

@EP - nom/DEB/FL.


I've bounced between reading over dave+your+bits of other people's isos tonight and playing fire emblem and I still gut dislike how he's played (especially in regards to today - I get the logic behind not wanting to share his reads and I can't really fault it aside from me thinking dayplay and being town enough to not get lynched is more important and I hate people giving themselves a 'reason' to play scummy) but I do see why DV town-read him despite (and probably partly because of) dave's push on DV after going over dave & DV's posts from that day. dave's #3922 (viewtopic.php?p=11528111#p11528111) does acknowledge that bad luck/targeting is another possibility rather than just DV-scum, he does push DV as scum a little to another player later that day (though not much) and as much as I dislike it I think it's pretty plausible to be coming from town.
Having said that, if he doesn't have reads and contribute game-day tomorrow I will burn his metaphorical house down.

A guy I used to play with often took a list of everyone's reads to see who floated to the top.

If everyone could humour me for a bit, can you please fill in your top 3 scumreads? It doesn't necessarily have to be a 3-team solve... just 3 ppl who you scumread independently.

Ankamius -
Dr Easy Bake -
Flavor Leaf -
davesaz -
panthaleon -
MariaR -
Gammagooey -
kuribo -
Firebringer -
EspressoPatronum - nom/Ank/MariaR
Almost50 -
nomnomnom -

DEB, Nom, kuribo

[EspressoPatronum]

@ MariaR is it accurate to say your top 3 are Ank/EP/FL?

[EspressoPatronum]

Like, dear lord people come on now is the time we should be doing something the most. None of this insult and victim crap. If we can get a new wagon going we should try today, although I personally like where the most votes are placed atm.

Which votes do you dislike?

I'm sleeping soon but if anyone wants to know why lynching in EP/FL is strictly better: Check my iso and we lynch FL because he's refusing to use the lighting rod shot when t can net us 1-2 scum. (Cause he's scum)

It appears you're still operating under the assumption that we nullify the scum kill with the lightning rod. How does your plan change if davesaz's commute is self-target only?

Also, how would the lightning rod ever net 2 scum? Are you proposing the doc hood was 2s/1t, or am I misinterpreting you?

Ank scum points to EP town and FL scum. Ank town? I don't know given how rapid her reads are changing. A50 should use the vig shot regardless if Ank is lynched though. On someone who we don't want in lylo. Who is that? I'll let you all debate that.I'll be up for a bit longer, but this is it for now.

A50 made a response earlier re not shooting. What do you make of said response given that you think he should shoot?

Who do you think shouldn't be in lylo?

[EspressoPatronum]

Well, apparently there was confusion with who we targeted...

I said I wanted to doctor Gamma, and EP wanted to Dave, then I brought up reasons I didn’t want to protect Dave, the main being I thought he was scum, and if he were town, scum would expect us to doctor there, so I wanted Gamma. EP said that it was a good point, so I thought he came along doctoring Gamma with me.

I guess he voted Dave.

I just found this out post Day start, so recently.

I tried a gambit to lure scum!FL into killing outside of our agreed target. I told him I targeted Dave when I secretly targeted Gamma.

But then he apparently also targeted Gamma.

So either:
1. He's town
2. He's scum who held the kill last night
3. He's scum who healed Dave and lied about the targeting.

Given the mix-up in the thread, #3 seems almost impossible.

Gobble says #2 is still within FL's scumrange, but #1 looks more likely at this point.

Barring scenarios #2 and #3, Gamma is likely* conf!town.

*Offchance of dave commuting to dodge a kill.

[EspressoPatronum]

@dave you need to reveal your JOAT results today

[EspressoPatronum]

I voted for EP to be loved because I very very much doubt Maria decided to start pushing on a scumbuddy on page 7 and continue scumreading them and legitimately pushing on him to die for literally the entire game after that.

also agree that dave should give some results and I'll have more to say tomorrow

Can confirm I am loved.

@dave you need to reveal your JOAT results today

Not gonna happen. When I have info to give town, that will be the time.

MariaR's behaviour strongly implicates you as a scumbuddy.

If you refuse to give your results, I suppose we'll have to lynch you without them.

VOTE: dave

[EspressoPatronum]

In the interest of maintaining complete transparency, it conf!towns Gamma in all but a few niche scenarios. I outlined a few of those scenarios in 6726.

I also wouldn't go so far as to say FL and I are masons. That whole Maria slip thing yesterday looks a lot worse considering Maria flipped scum.

P-edit - that is correct, dave. So... did you commute last night?

[EspressoPatronum]

Maria + Dave as scum would also lend itself to the theory of 1 scum in the RB and 1 scum in the inventor hoods. I originally thought it was DV, but dave makes sense, too.

[EspressoPatronum]

^ until I know it helps town. At this point it doesn't.

In addition to strengthening a TR on Gamma by revealing a non-commute last night, there's plenty of combo potential with your JOAT powers and the lightning rod.

We still don't know if your commute is strictly a self-commute. If it isn't +/ if it can be redirected, then the lightning rod LMS can make another night deathless.

Your watcher ability can combo with the lightning rod to net one scum. We can ask all town to withold their actions... if scum do anything, it'll be rerouted onto the lightning rod.

[EspressoPatronum]

In the interest of maintaining complete transparency, it conf!towns Gamma in all but a few niche scenarios. I outlined a few of those scenarios in 6726.

Btw, #3 makes non sense to me at all. Why would Scum FL lie about whom he targeted and still no kill? What does he gain from the two combined?

That's not quite what I meant by scenario #3. Here's what it would entail:

1. Scum!FL heals Dave
2. I heal Gamma
(Note - the heal target is randomized within Dave + Gamma in this case)
3. Scum tries to kill Gamma
4. Gamma doesn't die
5. FL realizes I must have saved Gamma, and thus lies about targeting Dave to escape the trap

Given that I can see where the confusion came from in our hood regarding targeting, I think this scenario is unlikely.

[EspressoPatronum]

OK, but my question still stands (my "other" question): WHAT SCUM shoots in gooey/dave and passes on a 100% guaranteed to succeed kill on you/FL which will ALSO get them rid of the Doctor ability for good?

I mean, if I was Scum I would have 100% shot between FL/EP last night. Why did scum shoot elsewhere (or why did they holster)?

To me, shooting between EP/FL would have outweighed keeping the game at evens by far too.

I completely agree - FL and I are the optimal targets. Shooting outside of us is just delaying the inevitable.

One explanation could be that scum thinks we'll lynch within EP/FL.

Another explanation is that FL is scum and can't afford to kill me.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hey EP, can you paraphrase the post with FL asking for Maria's vote on Ank in your QT for me? (ask the mod before posting it if you're worried about it being too close to exact or anything like that)

Given that Maria flipped scum I think it's worth looking into a little more

For sure. I bolded it in FL's recap:

I said

I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria.

Not Panth or FB.

2 separate posts. I didn’t look at it like that, but I guess I see why he’d call it out like that.

The first sentence is the one I was worried about. I added a period to it in the quoted 5961 for greater accuracy.

For added context, MariaR looked like she was positioning to move off of Ank at the time. That's why the timing is so weird.

[EspressoPatronum]

As mentioned above, I got the vibe that MariaR was looking to get off the Ank wagon. These are the relevant posts that came minutes before FL's post in my hood.

Spoiler:

This is scummy of you and subtle discrediting

I’m talking about you. Not anyone else. Unless other people are pushing the slip then I’d have to see who. Talking about you though. Good try champ.

Dw FL we finally agree on something for once. We both think the other player is scum and we're not voting each other.

However, I think pushing ank for a 'slip' is weka. When you can ya know, push her for other things.

I'm pushing her because everytime she gets pushed she puts up this AtE defeatist thing. Like even day 1, she did it and said she was getting BoP'd. Everytime she gets suspected she mentions town is going to lose. Is that townie to you?

It’s not towny, but I can see where she’s coming from with part of considering I literally did the same thing yet I’m not getting pushed for it. I think Ank is hiding behind the EC msgs atm.

Maria showing up to help Firebringer after he showed up to help Ank.

I have never purposely not entered a thread or entered a thread at a certain time. The fact you’re pulling at straws with reasoning like this when you tried to use this same logic to discredit me on the DV lynch is super funny.

@Nomnom - Maria’s afraid of A50 Vig shot

Yes, this is why I’m voting Ank to give A50 the vig shot!

mariar of all people thinks I need to hide behind EC

I feel like you just ran away when I tried to actively engage you for once. The other times you did engage me I had you as town. Now that I don't it's? Also, are you saying scum you doesn't hide behind EC?

I read this as MariaR looking for an excuse to "TR" Ank again. Kind of like an, 'engage with me and I'll TR you."

'I'd be on anyone who actively disagrees with me and throw useless shade cause my points mean nothing'

Srsly. How are you people townreading this? Ik getting a FL wagon won't work, but like come on now.
pedit: Crazy thought let's lynch FL?

Possibility of this being an attempted soft bus. MariaR leading a scum!FL lynch would buy her a ton of town cred.

Although this post came 2 mins after, it's still part of her subtle backtracking on Ank.

Spoiler:

mariar of all people thinks I need to hide behind EC

I feel like you just ran away when I tried to actively engage you for once. The other times you did engage me I had you as town. Now that I don't it's? Also, are you saying scum you doesn't hide behind EC?

what?

when did this happen?

When I first voted you a bit ago.
pedit: Yeah Ank it's cool and we get a free ML if we lynch in the lighting rod hood

[EspressoPatronum]

I said I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Not Panth or FB.

2 separate posts. I didn’t look at it like that, but I guess I see why he’d call it out like that.

This is correct.

I interpreted this as meaning that FL's post in the hood was:

I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Followed by a separate post saying

Not Panth or FB.

I said that I think FL just put a comma instead of 'or' in the first post, and it's

probably

not a slip.
If we got to a point that there had to be scum in the EP/FL hood this would definitely point to FL. But I think it does not point to FL right now because I strongly doubt there is scum in that hood at all.

You're welcome to interpret it differently.

I went through all of his posts in my hood. Almost all of them used either a / or proper comma use to distinguish between people. Mind you, most of the game has been just him and me, so he hasn't had to direct a comment at someone in a long time. When Elements was alive, he made a post directing separate points at Elements and me. In that post, he ended the respective sentence with ", Elements." And ", EP."

There was one example of FL saying X, Y, Z with no proper punctuation. This adds some support to his claim that he intended to put panth in the list of Ank, Maria, panth, but then changed it after.

Add in the fact that (1) gobble is scumreading FL, (2) the doctors are still somehow alive, despite being the optimal targets, and (3) the strange MariaR pivot onto FL mentioned in the spoilers posts above.

[EspressoPatronum]

See below - several bolded examples of FL saying XYZ, name....

and these are just the first two pages of his ISO.

He does it more than or equal to @name to address people. He almost always uses name/name/name for listing names. He very rarely used name, name, name.

This game also started yesterday, Dave

. Pushing me for not coming out of the gate blazing...

Would you like me to come out blazing?

I’m not trying to mislynch Sod Volpe, though, Nomnom

.

viewtopic.php?f=100&t=60967

Found it, GIF.

It was 2015, holy shit

By FL, om, and now even MariaR.
Hers was the most surprising because she knows how much of a lazy fuck I am to make a post like that.

This isn't even close to true. The one game I've seen from you (the one I modded) you tryharded in. Sure, I know you're personally lazy but I didn't know how that translates. I think you're just getting annoyed because you're not getting the easy townreads that you expected to get.

I fight with RC, because I don’t let him town coast.

And I kill off NSG when she’s my traitor partner.

Actually, I think most of the time I play with NSG, I end up killing her regardless of my alignment.

Also, Maria, are you Elena?

Speak your truth, Dave,

don’t see it as bragging, it’s a part of you. It is you.

GIF’s never getting night killed, Ank.

He controls a commuter neighborhood with RC/NSG clout.

Also I think that style of scumplay is actually kind of disproportionately effective because people just haven't learned how to counter it

People just don’t move past the mechanical way of playing Mafia and don’t see it like a spectrum. :shrug:

The majority of my scum games there is generally zero actual reason for me to ever be Mafia, even when I am, and mechanical by the book players physically can’t understand why I win the games I do.

I feel like I probably have one of the, if not the, highest scum win rate from players who have had more than 7 scum games on site.

Not using mechanical play, and playing socially is a counter, kind of, but then you gotta play the game. I’m all about scum and town alike making the moves.

I have an extremely flashy vanilla scum play, kind of like the BooneyToonz games in general.

I am by the book, 100%. It’s just not the book the so called “elite” players are reading, because I find it completely outdated.

I’m gonna mainstream Mafia, guys.

Bet.

You’re my new apprentice, Chennisden.

Welcome to the Boon Babes.

Fark was the best NK for FL/nomnom and a below average NK to a team outiside of nomnom/FL that should be more worried about Ank the paragon reaching the conclusion that it's a lot of TvTs.

Comment on this, Ankamius

, please.

Because we talked earlier about something similar.

[/quote]

[EspressoPatronum]

Very interested in discussion relating to 6780.
Subtle reminder that it's possible to make strong points with few posts...

What sort of discussion are you looking for regarding 6780? I didn't see any new material + most of your points are effectively, "it's a dice roll" or "we'll have to wait to see."

[EspressoPatronum]

@nom if you think Ank and FB are scum, you should vote Ank today. We can free up A50 to vig, which forces scum to pick between dave, the doctors, and A50.

@EP - this was I think right before you posted about FL's potential slip post - were you talking with FL about voting elsewhere in the group topic or earlier that real life day that you remember? I'm leaning towards it making more sense that Maria was considering voting FL and pushing it (as she had indicated she might in her in-thread posts around then) and FL-scum wanting her to stay on Ank for now, but you're the one with the actual context to go along with it - you seemed pretty focused on Ank atm and I don't see why FL asks you to be on one of Ank/Maria there when you're already on them unless there is some indication of indecision or consideration of changing your vote there that FL would have seen.

My 5 posts before his potential slip were all 100% clear I was staying on Ank. FL was suggesting FB or nom as an alternative to Ank, but I told him I was staying on Ank. I said something to the effect of, 'at least with MariaR and nom there's some possibilities of them flipping town or scum... with Ank, it's 100% scum.'

Him telling me he needed my vote on Ank or Maria doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of me being so confident on my Ank read.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

Add in the fact that (1) gobble is scumreading FL, (2) the doctors are still somehow alive, despite being the optimal targets, and (3) the strange MariaR pivot onto FL mentioned in the spoilers posts above.

Oh you did bring it up.

Also, you told me in the neighborhood Gobb thought I was town!

Gobble told me to lie to you in the hood about his SR on you so you wouldn't kill me last night. He said that if you knew he was scumreading you, you'd kill me asap.

The cat's out of the bag now.

[EspressoPatronum]

Current votecount

Flavor Leaf(2): Almost50, davesaz
davesaz (1): EspressoPatronum

Not Voting (7): Everybody Else
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is eventually.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Given EP's post this page (#6798) this page you can consider my vote on FL too once Ank posts and everybody checks in. It'd be nice if DEB could like actually show up to play and look town one of these days but I don't think it's ever going to happen. panth would be nice to hear opinions from too.

I’m the reason you’re conftown and even EP’s not on me. Stop.

I'm also waiting for others to join in before voting you. As it stands, I am willing to vote you or dave today.

[EspressoPatronum]

Nobody votes a cop.

Cops usually don't have a chance at being mafia.

Due to the hood mechanic this game, your role can only go so far in protecting you.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Firebringer
Think I'll do this for a while.

Why FB?

[EspressoPatronum]

Because I think he's scum, of course.
That's typically how it works.

Because I think he's scum, of course.
That's typically how it works.

You're being facetious, but I'll play ball anyway.
If you're not willing to help us sort you by revealing your JOAT results, we're going to need a lot more to sort your thought process.

Why FB over FL? Did FL say something that made you feel better about him?

Further, if you think FB is scummy,

why

do you think he is scummy? You asserted that FB is scum in your wallpost, but you didn't say why.

[EspressoPatronum]

@dave -- If we lynch FL today, I'm using the lightning rod tonight. Do with that information as you will.

As an aside, gobble wants to know why you're trying so hard in this game but you didn't try in MM2. You called this game a curveball of a logic puzzle, but we think MM2 was more of a traditional logic puzzle than this game.

[EspressoPatronum]

@EP: that gambit is basically useless, my dude. I appreciate the sentiment though.

@EC - think of it like this: Assuming scum!FL, there's roughly a 0% chance that our agreed heal target gets attacked by scum. By pretending to agree to dave but actually healing Gamma instead, I significantly increased the chances of a successful heal.

I take your point, however, that my execution of said gambit was lacking.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: FL

L-2

[EspressoPatronum]

If dave doesn't reveal everything tomorrow, lynch him.

[EspressoPatronum]

Accounting for the chance that dave has a watcher shot left,

nobody should submit an action tonight

except for dave. That'll increase the chances that dave can find scum if they use the kill.

I would heavily scrutinize anyone who decides to submit an action anyway.

[EspressoPatronum]

Can someone remind me what exactly Dave's neighborhood ability is/was and who was in it?

Hood: Composer
Members:

dave

/

DV

/

Farkran

Power: inventor with investigative items

LMS: JOAT (1-shots of commute, track, watch)
Targets: N1 chenn (failed), N2 chenn (failed), N3 unknown, N4 unknown

[EspressoPatronum]

Hey EP,

Hypothetically, what if I already watched the doctor I'm more townreading (the one not named FL) a couple nights ago? Advice for that case needs to be covered too. Hypothetically...

It doesn't matter anyway. If you're town, tonight's action is all about you, me, and scum. If you're scum, none of my speculation is relevant.

Nobody else should do anything tonight. If they do, it potentially muddies the waters.

1. If you watch me, everyone else who acts clouds your results when I die.
2. If you commute me, nobody's actions are going to affect me anyway.
3. If you don't have anything, I'm dead and nobody's actions are going to be relevant.

Depending on what scum thinks you have +/ what you'll use, they'll either kill me or no-kill + you'll get the relevant results. If I'm dead tomorrow, then #2 obviously didn't happen + you'll need to explain. If I'm alive, it was either #2 or scum no-killed + you'll need to explain.

In any event, you full claim tomorrow because town!you never survives past tomorrow night if you're sitting on information.

[EspressoPatronum]

Looking at the neighborhood, Maria originally suggested blocking his group. I'm curious if that's because she knew what his group had

Agreed. We covered this a few days ago when we were lynching DV, but it has certainly gained more merit now that Maria flipped scum. All the arguments in favour of a Maria+DV pairing apply to dave as well.

Maria + Dave as scum would also lend itself to the theory of 1 scum in the RB and 1 scum in the inventor hoods. I originally thought it was DV, but dave makes sense, too.

Spoiler: The RB/inventor discussion

I need to learn to read.

I don't believe in coincidences, this makes Maria look pretty bad.

How dare anyone not know on day 1 that Dave would claim on day 3 to be part of an investigative group


The nerve

I'm sure this is covered somewhere in the next few pages, but I'll answer anyway just in case.

Nom is suggesting that MariaR and one of Dave/DV are scum. The scum in the invest would would tell the scum in the RB hood to block the invest hood. I think A50 brought this up earlier.

I need to learn to read.

I don't believe in coincidences, this makes Maria look pretty bad.

How dare anyone not know on day 1 that Dave would claim on day 3 to be part of an investigative group


The nerve

I'm sure this is covered somewhere in the next few pages, but I'll answer anyway just in case.

Nom is suggesting that MariaR and one of Dave/DV are scum. The scum in the invest would would tell the scum in the RB hood to block the invest hood. I think A50 brought this up earlier.

It shouldn't be too hard to guess that the one who brought it up in the first place because they were outraged that the invest has been denied is town.
At least someone is paying attention.

If the possibility I outlined in 4094 is correct and the scum in the RB and inventor hoods worked together to form the plan, I'm sure the inventor scum would be capable of faking outrage when revealing the RBs.

As such, I don't think you coming forward earlier than DV helps us very much in deciding between the possible 50/50.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Ank
@A50
@DEB
@Gamma
@kuribo
@panth

Assuming FL is lynched today, do you accept 7001 and 7009, in that you should abstain from your action tonight?

I want everyone to be fully aware so there's no potential "oh I didn't know" tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

26- Maria wants to block dave, also suggests DV.

This adds more strength to the RB/inventor theory. Verrry suspicious that she picked two of the inventors to block.

[EspressoPatronum]

26- Maria wants to block dave, also suggests DV.

This adds more strength to the RB/inventor theory. Verrry suspicious that she picked two of the inventors to block.

Pushing me, but saying this implies Dave/Myself as scum.

Which means Dave would have had to be bussing me for a day and a half to start this game.

No, this implies Dave+Maria as scum.

I think you're scum for reasons not attached to the RB/inventor theory.

[EspressoPatronum]

26- Maria wants to block dave, also suggests DV.

This adds more strength to the RB/inventor theory. Verrry suspicious that she picked two of the inventors to block.

Pushing me, but saying this implies Dave/Myself as scum.

Which means Dave would have had to be bussing me for a day and a half to start this game.

No, this implies Dave+Maria as scum.

I think you're scum for reasons not attached to the RB/inventor theory.

Which implies Dave, FL, Maria.

This point, doesn’t matter if it’s individual, it’s still there. If you think I’m scum in the same game you think Dave, Maria are scum, by definition, that is you think Fl and Dave are scum scum.

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, implicit in that post is a Dave/FL/Maria team. It doesn't change the fact that I'm using it to attach Dave to Maria. I've discussed the RB/inventor theory a few times -- even if I'm ultimately wrong about it, the logic is sound.

I don't know how scum!Dave behaves. Perhaps he would bus you early, perhaps he wouldn't. Too WIFOMy for me.

[EspressoPatronum]

Is anyone actually buying this nonsense?

No

[EspressoPatronum]

Oooooof

[EspressoPatronum]

Dave is scum

[EspressoPatronum]

Probably

[EspressoPatronum]

Eff, I'm watching a TV show right now. I don't have time for last minutes thoughts.

[EspressoPatronum]

I think DEB is town

[EspressoPatronum]

I think Gamma is town. Genuine reads and all that

[EspressoPatronum]

I feel decent about FB town.

Honestly just look at dave first and then Ank.

Even though I think Gamma is town, don't forget about the possibility of FL holding an NK to get a fake clear on Gamma.

[EspressoPatronum]

Can someone remind me what exactly Dave's neighborhood ability is/was and who was in it?

Hood: Composer
Members:

dave

/

DV

/

Farkran

Power: inventor with investigative items

LMS: JOAT (1-shots of commute, track, watch)
Targets: N1 chenn (failed), N2 chenn (failed), N3 unknown, N4 unknown

I have something like this for every hood and action. Can I post it from my hood here?

[EspressoPatronum]

Known Information

Hood: Writers
Members: Ank/

Chennis

/A50
Power: vote remover
Survivor: Vigilante
Targets: D1 DEB, D2 kuribo, D3 blocked, D4 blocked

Hood:

Leading Actress
Members:

Nomnom

/Firebringer(removed)/

X Volpe

Power: Commuter
Survivor: Vengeful
Targets: N1 Ank, N2 Ank, N3

Hood: Leading Actor
Members:

FL

/

EP

/

X Elements

Power: Doctor
Survivor: lightning rod

Targets: N1 Ank, N2 GiF, N3 davesaz, N4 Gamma

Hood: Composer
Members:

dave

/

DV

/

X Farkran

Power: inventor with investigative items

Survivor: JOAT
Targets: N1 chenn (failed), N2 chenn (failed), N3

Hood:
Members:

Gamma

/DEB/

volxen

Power: makes people loved
Survivor:
Targets: N1?, N2 FL?, N3 Ank, N4 EP

Hood: Director
Members: kuribo,

MariaR

, Panth
Power: Roleblock
Survivor: doublevoter
Targets: N1 dave, N2 dave, N3 Ank, N4 Ank

Unknown/Unsorted information

Hood:
Firebringer is now hoodless

Power: hood power revealer, group remover

Survivor:

Notes

I made Gamma blue bcz of the heal.

[EspressoPatronum]

It goes without saying that Dave should consider commuting tonight. I don't see a world in which town!you survives tonight.