Mini Theme 2330 - A Questionable Almost-Normal Game - Postgame

[ketchup777]

Man. I was about to come into today upset at koba. Because Lap's claim sounded like it was there to find miller's. But I was also going to say koba was probably town for it because of Lap's role. But now I'm shook. Also why would scum even kill the Miller claim.

I'm upset Lap went out but it is what it is. I think Drew is town from that, so at least there's that.

I’ve made thoughts on other stuff I’ll share after school later, but just for now why does drew look good? Wouldn’t it have been normal to wait a day and let lap either claim some results or be killed overnight? Why rush to the hammer?

[ketchup777]

also thanks for not killing me and whoever is the messenger and sent me that I love you too

[ketchup777]

aliannas 2 cop funny setup ruined in 1 phase

[ketchup777]

never mind, i guess I should’ve red all the pages first.

I have an in on enchant as well

[ketchup777]

inno*

[ketchup777]

VOTE: Ranger

[ketchup777]

Mhm, wolves probably have Godfathers to any degree and their announcement is probably the thing one thing that isn't normal.

Godfathers are normal now.

Godfathers are normal

if announced beforehand

Wait so it has to be announced that Godfathers are in the game? Does that mean the innos are real?

there’s no way we’re allowed a million innos a night without a catch

[ketchup777]

Enchant, did you cop anyone?

[ketchup777]

hmmmmm

[ketchup777]

so you’re miller?

[ketchup777]

so you’re miller?

Do you see me agressively attacking people who claimed inno on me?

worth a try

[ketchup777]

Oh by the way i am like worst check possible ever

Why

[ketchup777]

doing a readslist now i realized that arko hasnt posted for quite a while lmao but i remember them being fairly towny in posting

See even Koba agree

lol

I thought you’d only read up to page 25 tho

[ketchup777]

Man. I was about to come into today upset at koba. Because Lap's claim sounded like it was there to find miller's. But I was also going to say koba was probably town for it because of Lap's role. But now I'm shook. Also why would scum even kill the Miller claim.

I'm upset Lap went out but it is what it is. I think Drew is town from that, so at least there's that.

I’ve made thoughts on other stuff I’ll share after school later, but just for now why does drew look good? Wouldn’t it have been normal to wait a day and let lap either claim some results or be killed overnight? Why rush to the hammer?

I like that ketchup is picking up on this because I also thought the way Drew handled Lap's claim was kinda scummy

If we assume all Godfather team then scum would be considering:

• Action Detector (Would see scum acted)
  
• Alien (role) (No kill after roleblock)
  
• (Dis)loyal Checker
  
• (Dis)loyal Cop
  
• Detective
  
• Godfather-Finder
  
• Follower
  
• (Dis)loyal Fruit Vendor
  
• Gunsmith
  
• Jailkeeper (No kill after roleblock)
  
• Motion Detector (Would see scum acted)
  
• Neapolitan
  
• Psychologist
  
• PT Cop
  
• Reporter (Would see scum acted)
  
• Roleblocker (No kill after roleblock)
  
• Role Cop (Godfather is Mafia only)
  
• Security Guard (Debatable)
  
• Tracker
  
• Traffic Analyst
  
• Watcher
  
• Masonizer

I don't think assuming everyone is cop is likelier for scum than assuming there's like Tracker or Role Cop or Traffic Analyst that would get a guilty on GF anyways

Good point, but also not good point. It’s possible we had 2/3 of these roles and the godfathers were useless, but either way scum are incentivised to vote out the disloyal cop Laplacian asap

[ketchup777]

Good point, but also not good point. It’s possible we had 2/3 of these roles and the godfathers were useless, but either way scum are incentivised to vote out the disloyal cop Laplacian asap

Why not just shoot lap at night?

somewhat fair point I suppose. I think it’s slightly optimal to take lap out asap, especially in a questionable setup where there could be a follow the cop strat?

[ketchup777]

also you get immediate setup confirmed info that way AND reduce day 1 rapidly (I am sad we rushed day 1)

[ketchup777]

actually

UNVOTE:

let’s make today better. every cop claim asap

[ketchup777]

We should run a game without activity replacements to see how strong the lurk meta would be

that would be funny

[ketchup777]

Good point, but also not good point. It’s possible we had 2/3 of these roles and the godfathers were useless, but either way scum are incentivised to vote out the disloyal cop Laplacian asap

Why not just shoot lap at night?

somewhat fair point I suppose. I think it’s slightly optimal to take lap out asap, especially in a questionable setup where there could be a follow the cop strat?

I think scum would just take the risk and shoot lap at night and that there's enough ambiguity that there's no way for scum to predict everyone being cop that everyone with d1 cop equity is probably town and everyone with d1 anti-cop equity is probably scum

help me out on what equity means?

[ketchup777]

let’s make today better. every cop claim asap

Why every cop should claim

to narrow done Mafias options

[ketchup777]

let’s make today better. every cop claim asap

Why every cop should claim

to narrow done Mafias options

down*

I think that makes sense, no? Once everyone has claimed I have a good idea of what to ask next

[ketchup777]

I mean, why would you

not

claim cop? Obviously don’t claim what you have, but you must know that you’re currently probably drawing the nightkill

[ketchup777]

I just realized. Scum knows the setup that's why they killed koba. Cause they must have assumed miller's were innocent results in this setup

Ohhhh millers as innocent goes hard

[ketchup777]

I assume this is why you questioned my reasoning for suspecting the claim Drew? And I assume this is why the claim had Koba and yourself jump on it so quickly and confidently

Yes and yes...

I thought I was dead overnight cause I was so quick to think it was a fake claim

Why would mafia shoot the hammered

[ketchup777]

hammerer* sorry I really need to check my messages before I send them

[ketchup777]

I checked PC cause I wanted to check someone on the wagon unlikely to be killed

What made you think PC wouldn’t be killed?

[ketchup777]

I feel like the game can be nearly entirely broken by looking at the current claims compared to End of Day actions, as well as looking for the pre-heavy-cop play.

I’ll be busy today, yet plan to investigate tomorrow.

yeah we absolutely cannot rush today

[ketchup777]

waiting on PC to get here and say if they're cop or not before I do things

[ketchup777]

I checked Titus. Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted I'm at work rn. Be back later.

perfect, thank you. when you come back, say why titus. in the meantime, i'll create a who claimed to investigate who+when post, before other things

[ketchup777]

Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted

what do you mean by this

VOTE: ranger

on the contrary, a setup where our only useful role can die in one night seems unfair, no?

[ketchup777]

still waiting on Light

[ketchup777]

Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted

what do you mean by this

VOTE: ranger

on the contrary, a setup where our only useful role can die in one night seems unfair, no?

That's not what happened. And it does seem fair to me.

what do you mean that's not what happened

why investigate Titus?

[ketchup777]

ok please hold back your thoughts until Light claims, but to help people out who want to do analysis, here are all the cop claims in order of claim:

Titus:

inno on Ranger (1076+1089)

Doctor Drew:

inno on usesPython (1084)

JacksonVirgo:

inno on Enchant (1085)

Hu Tao:

inno on Political Clout (1094)

Ketchup777:

inno on Enchant (1122)

Black:

inno on Light_ganski (1125)

usesPython:

inno on Enchant (1127)

Enchant:

not a cop (1143)

Ranger:

inno on Koba+not a standard cop (1209+1213)

Political Clout:

inno on Titus (1228)

Light:

??

[ketchup777]

I feel like the game can be nearly entirely broken by looking at the current claims compared to End of Day actions, as well as looking for the pre-heavy-cop play.

I’ll be busy today, yet plan to investigate tomorrow.

yeah we absolutely cannot rush today

On that note; I’m at l-3. Your vote + Enchant + PC.

I believe you’re all town, which leaves me theoretically within scum pile on hammer range.

Please take caution.

I've unvoted you

[ketchup777]

As soon as Koba flipped I knew what we were dealing with, it's obvious is it not? Drew caught it, as did I and Titus did too hence their claim.

Was it?

That’s the issue.

What made it all cops, not just three or four?

It wasn’t obvious to me.
It isn’t something which is clearly the case, just from two different Cop flips.

Yes, everyone looking would suspect shenanigans via knowing they are a third Cop.

What

confirmed

it was shenanigans, and what made it not worth sitting on?

For instance, you and Drew remained ambiguous. When reading, I didn’t know you were referring to Cop shenanigans. "Notice something?" Could have meant anything. You didn’t hint at an innocent and neither did Drew. Neither of you indicated you had investigated.

Why didn’t Titus do similarly?

Why did she get explicit and not leave things vague?

Especially given it’s

Titus

, whose modus operandi is vagueness in claims?

while I make no comment on Titus' slot, I agree that I went from believing it was a 1cop-multimiller setup, to a 2cop overnight, to a 3 cop after the flip. I thought the funny thing was that there'd be 3 of us counterclaiming, and my mind didn't immediately jump to all cops until I saw that there'd been like 2+4=6 claimed/proven cops in a short timespan

[ketchup777]

Especially given it’s

Titus

, whose modus operandi is vagueness in claims?

For those unfamiliar with Titus's meta;
Titus is infamous for trying to coordinate inthread with other townies and attempt to lay traps for scum.

To communicate secretly with players using code words, off of an understood connection.

I can think of many, and link at least one in 30 hours.

So, if you assume Titus did see the JV-Drew interaction,

why didn’t she try to lay a trap for scum?

Why didn’t she try to work with JV and Drew?
Why did she explicitly claim, rather than remain vague and see from others if her suspicion was correct?

She didn’t act like a third Cop trying to scope out the setup.

She acted like she knew everyone was a Cop and there was no point in laying a trap.

sure, I look forward to your linking one

[ketchup777]

Who's the miller claim?

Koba and you, remember your antics all those years ago?

[ketchup777]

If you say so bestie

[ketchup777]

I think not seeing anything wrong with Laps cop claim as a cop is pretty bad

Unfortunately I might be biased, because I knew Lap’s claim was real (by checking the end of the thread) before I read through the final 100 posts of day 1. However, when I saw his cop flip, though a surprise, I was like oh! of course there’s more than one cop haha that makes sense

I imagine I would have believed him if I were there at the time too

I don’t buy all this certainty that a cop thinks there can’t be two cops, we’re in a QUESTIONABLE game. Why not stop and think about how that could actually be fair? Why rush?

Drew/Jackson/Titus surprise team?

[ketchup777]

Anyway, we need to coordinate our cops incase scum have 1+ non-godfathers. but also it’s possible mafia have a roleblock (tho no one claimed roleblock last night yet). I’d like to wait until light claims before I suggest some ideas

[ketchup777]

Playing on this site has conditioned me, and others, to think an ungated Cop is already busted so multiple just digs into your brain as "this isn't right" regardless of a questionable game. There's a reason why I voted them, and then backed out when I came to my senses.

Oh yeah actually you behaved how I think makes sense actually.

Drew went all in, not taking the time to think, and quoting Kobas post about him being the hammer as a lame excuse to hammer. hmmm

[ketchup777]

Cops are the new VT. There's going to be sprinkled roles like the Disloyal but mostly they're the new VT, no point in coordinating anything really.

I think we want to make sure we have at least 2 people check everyone if possible. As noones claiming miller it’s possible a normal cop gets lucky

[ketchup777]

stop revealing all your thoughts me

[ketchup777]

I might just not have had the strength of cop put into perspective. But I can’t see how hammering a cop in a known suspicious setup can gain when we have over 7 days to sort the slot. it’s too risky.

cyclical point tho so im just waiting on light

[ketchup777]

I have juicy battle plans for after light is here I promise

[ketchup777]

Playing on this site has conditioned me, and others, to think an ungated Cop is already busted so multiple just digs into your brain as "this isn't right" regardless of a questionable game. There's a reason why I voted them, and then backed out when I came to my senses.

Oh yeah actually you behaved how I think makes sense actually.

Drew went all in, not taking the time to think, and quoting Kobas post about him being the hammer as a lame excuse to hammer. hmmm

If someone claims a role in hammer range that you "know" is bullshit then you're probably gonna hammer, this is also why Koba was pushing Drew to hammer

Maybe. I feel like im never going to hammer anyone unless the time is absolutely right tbh. there’s so much to lose! and so little to gain!

[ketchup777]

Do we have a list of people who have been inno'd?

1238 but don’t go sending this in the scum PT to light plz (;

[ketchup777]

I was so excited for this game since I was finally cop and now I got tricked I feel deflated today ngl

saaaaaaame you should’ve seen the absolute ENTHUSIASM in my response to the role PM but hey this is fun too (:

[ketchup777]

I was so excited for this game since I was finally cop and now I got tricked I feel deflated today ngl

saaaaaaame you should’ve seen the absolute ENTHUSIASM in my response to the role PM but hey this is fun too (:

Also I had 3 notifications so I thought I had a link to a private topic or something but no I just had an unopened PM about something else ):

[ketchup777]

I might just not have had the strength of cop put into perspective. But I can’t see how hammering a cop in a known suspicious setup can gain when we have over 7 days to sort the slot. it’s too risky.

cyclical point tho so im just waiting on light

Imagine if both cops live to d3 with 3 of the people they checked still alive. Thats 3 checks + 2 cops out of 9 people still alive, a 3/4 chance of hitting scum through pure POE

Yes, I can see how 2 cops in a normal setup would be swingy as hell and potential to be very op.

But this isn’t a normal game.

Why not stop and consider alternatives? Drew didn’t immediately hammer and he didn’t think about it either. He merely mediated, seemingly testing the waters rather than actually thinking about the validity of the claim, before suspiciously taking out Lap

[ketchup777]

also thanks for not killing me and whoever is the messenger and sent me that I love you too

in case anyone gets confused I made the latter of this up, I didn’t receive a message in the night

[ketchup777]

I tried reading some of the spec talk and Ranger vs. Titus but my eyes started to glaze over

you can read it after light spawns

[ketchup777]

Lol, VOTE: ketchup

I came up with it overnight in an attempt to divert maf away from killing me if it was a 2 cop setup. Then I maybe tried too hard to make it work and I thought I had to get it out quickly after replying to the thread, but I hadn’t read that everyone was cop at this point

[ketchup777]

Go for it, check in the pool that hasn't been checked yet. I won't take part in mech discussions as I don't think it's of worth to do so, in fact I think it'll harm us more than anything if people get too swept away with the mech (coming from someone who doesn't think it goes further than Cop = named VT)

Especially since everyone got an inno??

Obviously there are more than likely some bad cops here as well(social commentary ftw)

Yeah, I doubt there's even a possibility of a wolf being red-checkable by a Cop. I also think we threw away a lot of our possible utility (if we have more) as it stands with every cop claiming innos bar a few people. I don't want to make it worse.

It only went badly because Ranger mysteriously not-so-cryptically claimed to not be a normal cop, so now we might be completely screwed PRwise.

[ketchup777]

Go for it, check in the pool that hasn't been checked yet. I won't take part in mech discussions as I don't think it's of worth to do so, in fact I think it'll harm us more than anything if people get too swept away with the mech (coming from someone who doesn't think it goes further than Cop = named VT)

Especially since everyone got an inno??

Obviously there are more than likely some bad cops here as well(social commentary ftw)

i still feel like there’s probably 1 maf we can get out. If Light claims cop, we can assign 2 people to check each of the 5 remaining people. Then the next night we can double up on the people who only have 1 claimed inno. We might get lucky, we might not, but it could do something.

[ketchup777]

Obviously it’s clever of Light to wait to get us impatient but it’s not a tactic I admire

[ketchup777]

i still feel like there’s probably 1 maf we can get out

Doubt it, there's 7+ cops

It’s not like someone with a guilty is necessarily going to be believed immediately

[ketchup777]

just please don’t wagon off anyone until light has got here

[ketchup777]

@mod would no VTs violate normal regulations?

[ketchup777]

Wait 4 people on me.

Who even thought checking me is good idea, if i am mafia i most likely policied anyway and if i am town, you need to take my potato head in consideration as conftown. I don't really get what you were thinking.

I thought getting info on a slot with no posts made sense

[ketchup777]

@mod would no VTs violate normal regulations?

The rules definitely don’t say there is at least one VT, however i am curious as to whether this would count as the one thing breaking the rules or not (obviously it might not be applicable but worth checking)

[ketchup777]

I SWEAR READING COMPLEX RULES IS MORE COMPLEX THAN PLAYING COMPLEX GAMES.

This is true

Yep the wording is ambiguoussss

[ketchup777]

Anyway, we need to coordinate our cops incase scum have 1+ non-godfathers. but also it’s possible mafia have a roleblock (tho no one claimed roleblock last night yet). I’d like to wait until light claims before I suggest some ideas

I've claimed investigative and I'd prefer not to claim further today

What are your ideas ketchup?

ok, again, no one reveal whether you’re a standard cop or not, but has anyone crumbed being a cop? I know day 1 was cut short but a crumb could be helpful. I’ll start in a sec when I’m at PC

[ketchup777]

@mod would no VTs violate normal regulations?

As far as I am aware, all Normal games require some VTs.

Thank you!

So the most likely rule break is godfathers, but it’s possible we have no VTs

[ketchup777]

Enchant is not

actually

confirmed town though. It’s possible they’re scum and a VT decided to fake being a cop

[ketchup777]

@mod would no VTs violate normal regulations?

As far as I am aware, all Normal games require some VTs.

Thank you!

So the most likely rule break is godfathers, but it’s possible we have no VTs

If we have no VTs then Enchant is still mechanically globally conftown from the 3 cop innos on him by JV/Python/Ketchup since you'd need to announce Godfather if the rulebreak was 0 VTs

ah yes, you're correct! that's nice

[ketchup777]

But that does mod confirm a VT to exist, so that’s fun

Assuming there are godfathers which does seem very very likely

[ketchup777]

Stuff I did on Day 1 as a cop:

This might be a slightly long post, but I hope to prove to any doubters out there that I am town, and a cop of some variety.

I am aware I had the most posts on Day 1, also that Day 1 was cut drastically short, which sucks. However, I encourage anyone who managed to knowingly crumb on Day 1 to step forward now. Scum will know which of us are cops, so you can only be helping us out as town. It's possible scum crumbed, let's imagine for a sec they have 3 godfathers or 2GF1goon. I still don't think it's at all clear that next to all of us are cops. They might suspect 2 cops, but all cops is quite a leap from that. Alternatively they might suspect something like 1 cop 1 backup, but these are not necessarily worlds where they would think to crumb cop, I think. So share your crumbs asap (:

Spoiler: 1

No I actually claim Miller

Alianna is feeling mean hehe, would be funny if there's no cops

Here I try to distance myself from being a cop. I was also thinking about whether I should claim Miller at this point, then on the Cop Wiki I read:

"Play Advice
From least forgivable to most forgivable:

Do not get eliminated Day 1 while trying to gambit.

"

so decided to not do that.

Spoiler: 2

i think the miller claim D1 can be left for now

like i have a very, very old instinct to policy lim claimed millers that i'm trying to get past

sure I mean it won’t affect me really, I was just trying to work out if it was worth going into the claim or not. still new to the meta and all thattt. Good luck to any investigative role diagnosing that cesspit lol

I again maybe somewhat naively try to distance myself from being a cop.

Spoiler: 3

Alianna feeling mean hehe, would be funny if there's no cops

it's supposed to be a troll game so I expected either like 7 millers or just be uncc as a names townie

can you unacronymicize uncc please? (:

true

I claim not miller. investigate me if you want to find a town!

The exclamation mark maybe was subconsciously trying to hint at making an ironic statement. I thought it was ironic to tell people to investigate me because I thought I was the only cop. However, I also remembered telling people to investigate me in my last game when I was a VT, so thought I could go down this line fairly safely. I will explain some fake VT crumbs I left in here later on in this post. Gypyx had made me laugh about my crumbing VT last time and I was determined to do it again hehehe (:

Spoiler: 4:my main cop crumb(full posts snipped, you can go read but it's Jackson and I's massive colourful argument)

Because I'm talking about YOUR reads dude, I don't care who came up with them. You're utilising them to the highest degree

Yes, you're talking about my reads. You're tunneling. I have nothing to hide though so it'll be like policemen banging down my door without a search warrant and then saying that they found a chocolate wrapper under the sofa that means I've committed 7 felonies, 4 heists and 6 kidnappings.

Ok, so at some point I decided I should slip some kind of crumb in so my cop results (if I managed to stay alive) would have some credibility. I wasn't sure how I was going to do it yet, I didn't want to do a first letters potentially riskily obvious kind of thing, so was just waiting till the time was right. I felt that slipping a crumb into a massive post should be the safest possible place (because some people, especially mafia probably, will be lazy and only skim it), and when the imagery of a police search came into my head I realised it was meant to be. Here, the word 'policemen' was a hint I am cop. Also, abstract, but the numbers I chose for the felonies, heists and kidnappings (7,4,6) referred to the first 3 players I planned to investigate if possible based on who I wanted to investigate at that time, based on the playerlist in post #0:

1. ketchup777
2. JacksonVirgo
3. Black

4. Titus

(SECOND INVESTIGATION)
5. light_ganski

6. Ranger

(THIRD INVESTIGATION)

7. Enchant Arko*

(FIRST INVESTIGATION)
8. usesPython
9. Laplacian
10. Hu Tao
11. DkKoba
12. Political Clout
13. Doctor Drew

While I was undecided whether I was going to reveal my results after 2 or 3 night investigations, I planned to stick to this order if I could (obvs if one died I would have to adapt, but I would have explained that in my reveal post). Now after this premature reveal and the 1millioncops surprise I am obviously open to investigating whoever, but yeah. Why this order? I did not want to risk investigating Koba or Jackson with claimed millers (up to you to decide whether my role would allow me to get a result, but I figured these players would get sorted out one way or another), and wanted to investigate slots I felt uncertain about. Enchant nee. Arko took priority, as the only information we have is that Arko was so depressed at seeing their role that they flaked. Titus came next, as Titus was not posting very much and it was hard to find much substantial to analyse there (IRL reasons, sure). Ranger came last, because I was somewhat confident in my initial read of her but I thought others might share my read and vote her out, or I could be wrong. I also thought Ranger was unlikely to die as she looked a bit suspicious so a town!ranger would be kept alive at night for a while, probably. Same for Enchant and Titus, I thought others (including me) were just more likely to die tbh. I endeavoured to stick to this order last night, even if Enchant were a Miller that'd be ok, so I did. I have an inno on enchant.

Spoiler: 5

-snip-
yes im subtly implying things about whats going on currently, but also would like to break down pushes

against who i consider in most worlds a likely n1 kill

and thus a waste of threadspace to push lol

I don't wanna dieeee ):

too bad its for the good of the people (im the people)

lucky i got 7-shot bulletproof right

Here I try to make scum think I'm double-bluffing bulletproof to avoid being nightkilled.

Spoiler: 6

I probably would have made 50 posts instead of 119

But guessing ofc

Do you think the best strategy as scum is to lurk and post less?

Best? No. Most commonly used? Probably. Humans gravitate towards laziness

Here demonstrates why I have posted so much. I saw more than one thread recently where people were suggesting town PRs would lie low early on, and I was determined to not get caught out for that by the mafia at night, especially since in my last game as a VT I posted a lot and would probably be expected to do so again. This includes my last game (Mini Normal 2325) where DeltaWave was shot night 1, an otherwise crazy kill, for being a suspected low-posting Power Role.

Spoiler: 7

VOTE: Ketchup777

wait, i can’t look too innocent, i might get nightkilled ):

Basically this was a fairly honest thought. By self-voting I was trying to do something weird-looking and divert attention from the fact that nobody was voting me anymore. If I had managed to convince all my early doubters that I was town, it wasn't looking so good for me at night. Now I will show the 3 Vanilla Townie crumbs I left, in the hopes scum would catch one and leave me alone at night:

Spoiler: 8

I feel like I’m posting too much, sorry

Leave some posts for the rest of us, damnnnn

I tried to but noone told me if they would prefer to be a horse or a dung beetle

Very tragic

V T

Spoiler: 9

Can you try to explain the townie vibes you're getting?

sure give me a few mins, it’s strawberry milkshake time

Very tasty

V T

Spoiler: 10-final one!

sorry i find colours easy so will go back to colours here

excessively focusing on one person without good reason. you can raise your points, but i don't think it's possible to confidently read anyone yet so early on and with all 13 of us still alive. I learnt my lesson from last time when luca finally convinced me he was 100% confident on bugs only to have the

VT flip*.

sorry if you feel that way, I don't really have much more to say though yet

pocketing me would be questionable after we had very different views in MeLo last time. Shooting me could work, but idk. Probably not worth hyperfixating on why you've decided to heavily go after me. I hope you'll see the light soon

ok

*(although it was also kind of on me for not having enough patience)

pedit: hell yeahhh

I got the idea of placing an asterisk next to a crumb from Jackson last game, hence it was only apt that I leave an asterisk crumb for him in answer to one of his long posts. I tried to make the asterisk link up to something to not make it too obvious.

Yep, that's me. Crumbs anyone? (:

[ketchup777]

But that does mod confirm a VT to exist, so that’s fun

Assuming there are godfathers which does seem very very likely

No dude

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... lex_Normal

Read under the experimental role section

Ok, so explain why it's mod-confirmed we have a VT?

[ketchup777]

oh wait she thinks I'm a godfather nvm (I'm not ftr)

Oh light says she's not a godfather. Damn guess we were wrong bois let's pack it up

VOTE: Titus

Calling light and Black partners. There is a reason to vote light (counterwagon from yesterday) but I wanted to hear someone say it to compare if they usually do that. Black jumping off at the first motion elsewhere is suspicious rather than giving a reason. She wants to be on the light wagon if it takes but would rather vote town.

VOTE: Light

This feels overly defensive and a little panicky

I must be high as fuck I thought you were calling yourself defensive and panicky

OMG SAME SAME

Jackson conftown

[ketchup777]

My asterisk strat going wild

lmao

[ketchup777]

But that does mod confirm a VT to exist, so that’s fun

Assuming there are godfathers which does seem very very likely

No dude

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... lex_Normal

Read under the experimental role section

Ok, so explain why it's mod-confirmed we have a VT?

Cuz dragon modslipped

I don't think you can definitely conclude that. However, I would be amazed if scum don't have any godfathers. Is there some kind of redirecting role they could all have, where they redirect night actions at them onto a townie so it'll always be an inno?

[ketchup777]

I didn’t read that post at all except the end, I’m workin will soon

cool, point 4 is my cop crumb and the rest is just general beacon of honesty

[ketchup777]

Should be, not a hard floor

I thought it was ambiguous as to whether this means no hard floor can be 0 or no hard floor as to whether there's 1,2,3+...

[ketchup777]

1. A VT isn’t confirmed as per complex normal ruling
2. Dragon said that normals would have at least one VT, as a mod he’d know the setup. He wouldn’t say that if there were none

1. I'm not 100% convinced on the intricacies of the wording of the rules, but ok
2. Dragon should also know that the setup violates a rule. He said paraphrasing 'Normal Games must have at least one VT'. He still left it ambiguous as to whether

this

setup has a VT. This isn't a Normal game.

[ketchup777]

1. A VT isn’t confirmed as per complex normal ruling
2. Dragon said that normals would have at least one VT, as a mod he’d know the setup. He wouldn’t say that if there were none

For 1 the same wording is used on both Simple, Regular, and Complex Normal page. One VT is still mandatory

obviously you and Jackson being so confident either way is confusing me

[ketchup777]

Compulsive town lightning rod would be hilarious

ah! so there is a way scum could not be godfathers! this could be big!

boop

[ketchup777]

I would have accepted it slipped my mind. I forgor oopsie. if you're having trouble reading me why am I not in the neutral bin as I assume that is what it's there for.

I treat neutral as "I have thought about them a bunch but I'm still not sure what's going on" or "you did something towny but then you did something scummy and they've cancelled out". DkKoba's in neutral because miller claim. HT had town vibes and then mischaracterized stuff hard. Neutral to me is "there's some shit going on with them, but I'm not sure how to resolve it yet", not no information. Tossing people in neutral because I haven't found anything interesting to discuss yet is just a waste of space

you should have done your homework and counted my posts I only had 27 when you posted your reads list so I also would have accepted your first reason that I hadn't posted enough. I believe you less now.

VOTE: laplacian

Yeah, I read your whole iso because there wasn't many, still couldn't sort you. Again, it's why I took the time to ask you about your L_G vote

omg Lap stole Alianna’s post 1000 bloop that’s so tragic

[ketchup777]

Compulsive town lightning rod would be hilarious

ah! so there is a way scum could not be godfathers! this could be big!

boop

never mind that’s not a normal role. that would be funny though we would just do well to kill the lightning rod.

I’m going to quickly check the roles and see if there’s a normal way Enchant could be mafia without being a godfather and we have a 0 VT setup

[ketchup777]

I almost certainly used that term wrong

dwell? I think it was fine

Yeah it seems like Enchant has to be town

[ketchup777]

Enchant is not

actually

confirmed town though. It’s possible they’re scum and a VT decided to fake being a cop

Unless this happened

[ketchup777]

“All but confirmed”

Mhm

[ketchup777]

Nah they wouldn’t, don’t give scum the freedom to retract and claim VT. If anybody does, they’re scum.

Yeah I’d probably only believe that on a flip. I don’t think it’s very likely at all, just saying that seems to be the only possible scenario where Enchant is scum

[ketchup777]

Enchant might be scum. It's unlikely and tabling.

Light Drew Ranger Black is my scumpool with Ranger being the least likely.

Hi Titus, what are your current thoughts on a)Political Clout?
b) I, ketchup

[ketchup777]

There's like 2 common approaches people take when double claims.

1. They aggressively pressure. Mostly unrealistic but happens.
2. They try out of their way to show that "no i am not this role" yet still gonna vote. More realistic.

It's kinda hard to fake.

As I said before, I didn't like how stark my shift was on lap after I saw his claim, in retrospect......read my notes PT and you will see I thought I was a goner

Just thought it was an obvious fake claim, I mean just look at my interactions with PC lol

Pre Edit: Do you know how to expose Titus?

Ranger did give a hint earlier

Can you link a game where you’ve used a notes PT? Did you use one in the game we played together and just not share it?

[ketchup777]

Enchant might be scum. It's unlikely and tabling.

Light Drew Ranger Black is my scumpool with Ranger being the least likely.

What happened to your PC scumread?

That’s what I was wondering

[ketchup777]

What ya all think about my opinion?

... I mean that opinion that atleast one maf on me.

... I mean you do read my interesting full of content posts, right?

I initially had the same thought myself, but I do think that you were the obvious cop investigation choice, so I’m not sure

[ketchup777]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

I think this probably implicates PC too but I've gotten townie vibes from PC otherwise. I haven't gotten those vibes from Drew

Despite the complex nature of this game, sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one......

the answer I keep giving

for how I acted at EOD1

This feels very off. Feels like an honest town would add something like 'because that is the truth'. It seems like Drew is just expecting to get away with using the same excuse again and again. I think godfather!Drew would fear something like bodyguard+disloyal cop and feel rushed to take out Laplacian. I’m happy to flip Drew here

to quote capn wiesler:
"Do you notice anything about his statement?
It's the same as at the beginning.
Exactly the same. Word for word.
People who tell the truth
can re-formulate things,
and they do.
A liar has prepared sentences,
which he falls back on
when under pressure."

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[ketchup777]

asking again did anyone crumb cop day 1?

[ketchup777]

But I'm withholding it cuz it shows whether I have more to my role or not

hmm ok

[ketchup777]

Are you aware you're rolefishing?

I’m not modifier fishing, im cop fishing, which shouldnt reveal anything to the mafia they dont already know but in case it wadnt clear


DO NOT REVEAL IF YOU HAVE ANY MODIFIERS

[ketchup777]

asking again did anyone crumb cop day 1?

I did but obtusely.

would it harm to share?

[ketchup777]

operation crumbs is not going to plan

[ketchup777]

VOTE: Titus

[ketchup777]

Why am I town

You're my masonbuddy with usesPython,

obviously

.

But we're masons #jealous. Don't go break my heart tonight.

Here's a subtle crumb. Ranger's town unless she breaks my heart (by being a scum check).

ah, fun. slightly suspicious delay but ok

UNVOTE: Titus

[ketchup777]

Why am I town

You're my masonbuddy with usesPython,

obviously

.

But we're masons #jealous. Don't go break my heart tonight.

Here's a subtle crumb. Ranger's town unless she breaks my heart (by being a scum check).

ah, fun. slightly suspicious delay but ok

UNVOTE: Titus

I mean if you thought about it for 0.2 seconds, they'd have that ready to go regardless (thus the delay is NAI). Especially them acknowledging they had a crumb beforehand

oh yeah tru probably

VOTE: Ranger

coasting no fun

[ketchup777]

I'm fine with light or Jackson

I deem this vote mildly sus. Based on that I had just submitted a spree of votes Hu Tao might have thought I would be crazy and jump on. idk

[ketchup777]

VOTE: Light_Ganski

E-1

[ketchup777]

meow?

[ketchup777]

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[ketchup777]

I'm fine with light or Jackson

I deem this vote mildly sus. Based on that I had just submitted a spree of votes Hu Tao might have thought I would be crazy and jump on. idk

Nah, I disagree. I think their progression is natural enough, it's a little clunky if anything but natural enough.

Her progression is fine, just seems like an opportunistic time to vote, maybe

[ketchup777]

ok i Imagine it can’t be right but just to explore all alleyways would no limming once or twice hoping to increase the chance we have a useful cop to get results have any merit?

[ketchup777]

I'm wary of voting light because of titus and python on the wagon but maybe I should step on the gas and find out which pairing makes most sense...

last time you stepped on the gas it was not so good

[ketchup777]

I'm fine with light or Jackson

I deem this vote mildly sus. Based on that I had just submitted a spree of votes Hu Tao might have thought I would be crazy and jump on. idk

It's the same reads I had last time I posted

I know, I was commenting on the timing (after I had just voted 2/3 different people in a blur)

[ketchup777]

No lim is also both a 100% chance to not kill mafia and it gives evils a kill on us for free.

sure in hindsight it no sound so good

[ketchup777]

[quote="Political Clout" post_id=14114818 post_num=1601 time=1709756839 user_id=17484]
[quote=ketchup777 post_id=14114813 post_num=1600 time=1709756760 user_id=37327]
ok i Imagine it can’t be right but just to explore all alleyways would no limming once or twice hoping to increase the chance we have a useful cop to get results have any merit?
[/quote]

scum claim tbh.
[/quote]

!!!

[ketchup777]

the heck happened to the quoting on that one

[ketchup777]

It could be drew+light, as this would further explain Drew’s rushing to the hammer. It could also be Black though.

VOTE: Black

[ketchup777]

Proposed cop plan if Light gets hammered:

Ketchup+Jackson—> cop Hu Tao
Hu Tao+Black—> cop Jackson
Ranger+Titus—> cop Doctor Drew
usesPython+Doctor Drew —>cop Black
Political Clout—> cop Ketchup

[ketchup777]

if someone thinks random is better, feel free to speak up though

[ketchup777]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

As i said at some point before, it’s possible Drew feared a bodyguard or something that would allow Lap to get a verifiable cop result off

[ketchup777]

Proposed cop plan if Light gets hammered:

Ketchup+Jackson—> cop Hu Tao
Hu Tao+Black—> cop Jackson
Ranger+Titus—> cop Doctor Drew
usesPython+Doctor Drew —>cop Black
Political Clout—> cop Ketchup

If you're a modified cop check who you want to check

If you're a regular cop check according to the list and pretend you checked who you wanted to check unless you get a guilty/no result on the person you checked in the list

'pretend you checked who you wanted to check'; how will that work? do we only speak up if we didn’t get an inno and otherwise remain silent?

[ketchup777]

Is there a PoE solve yet? Python/JV/Drew/Enchant, 11 alive so need 6 townies

feels odd to class these as definitely out of the picture, even if you feel confident they’re town

[ketchup777]

Proposed cop plan if Light gets hammered:

Ketchup+Jackson—> cop Hu Tao
Hu Tao+Black—> cop Jackson
Ranger+Titus—> cop Doctor Drew
usesPython+Doctor Drew —>cop Black
Political Clout—> cop Ketchup

If you're a modified cop check who you want to check

If you're a regular cop check according to the list and pretend you checked who you wanted to check unless you get a guilty/no result on the person you checked in the list

'pretend you checked who you wanted to check'; how will that work? do we only speak up if we didn’t get an inno and otherwise remain silent?

If we were Town Cop and would want to check Koba as a Disloyal Town Cop we'd Town Cop Black (according to the list) and say we have an inno on Koba

This lets the modifier cops post their results without immediately being obvious from deviating from the list while still letting them check who they want to check. If someone flips Town Cop later in the game it means they got an inno on the person in the list (since otherwise they'd have come out as Town Cop with a guilty/no result)

Ok, but say modifier cops hold back results until Day 4. if we haven’t got a maf out yet, we‘ll be at 4vs3 ELO (assuming 3 scum) and now we don’t have enough time to properly dissect a CC. won’t this just lead to chaos

[ketchup777]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

As i said at some point before, it’s possible Drew feared a bodyguard or something that would allow Lap to get a verifiable cop result off

Trading one scum to avoid a cop check is a very bad trade, and a setup with ungated disloyal cop + doctor just straight up wouldn't fly for balance reasons

I didn’t say ungated cop+doctor, I deliberately chose bodyguard which sacrifices itself so seems balanced? And there’s no guarantee Drew would be taken out the next day

[ketchup777]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

If Drew is a godfather wouldn't he see the disloyal cop as the biggest threat to him and try to convince others to push the wagon through like he did?

that’s what methinks

UNVOTE: Black

[ketchup777]

It could be drew+light, as this would further explain Drew’s rushing to the hammer. It could also be Black though.

VOTE: Black

This vote feels worse than Jackson's though. Thinking Drew+light is partnered and then voting for me is ???

I’m just doing what you said you were doing in 1681, looking at it from all angles

I swear I’ve voted nearly everyone at some point lol let’s keep it going

VOTE: Political Clout

[ketchup777]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

If Drew is a godfather wouldn't he see the disloyal cop as the biggest threat to him and try to convince others to push the wagon through like he did?

Pretend the setup is

Setup

1. Mafia Godfather
   
   
2. Mafia Godfather
   
   
3. Mafia Godfather
   
   
4. Town Disloyal Cop
   
   
5. Vanilla Townie
   
   
6. Vanilla Townie
   
   
7. Vanilla Townie
   
   
8. Vanilla Townie
   
   
9. Vanilla Townie
   
   
10. Vanilla Townie
    
    
11. Vanilla Townie
    
    
12. Vanilla Townie
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

What does scum Drew believably claim that lets him get away with immediately believing that Lap is fake claiming while also being a balanced questionable setup

He just claims cop, knowing it’s a useless role. as he did

[ketchup777]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

If Drew is a godfather wouldn't he see the disloyal cop as the biggest threat to him and try to convince others to push the wagon through like he did?

Also same question we asked Ketchup, why not just shoot Lap at night?

because bodyguard maybe or gated doctor

[ketchup777]

I'm sorry I don't understand. Why would scum!Drew think this is the setup?

The exact setup doesn't as long as scum don't know it's an all cop game, do you think the gamestate supports this or not?

Tbh if you have 3 godfathers it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to figure out that alianna might troll and give town multiple cops

[ketchup777]

Is there a PoE solve yet? Python/JV/Drew/Enchant, 11 alive so need 6 townies

feels odd to class these as definitely out of the picture, even if you feel confident they’re town

The greater concern is usesPython's actions not matching this perspective.

If they are confident Black, JV, Drew, and Enchant are all town, then adding themselves, they have 5/11 town.

Unless they think I am scum, I would be the sixth town.

That would leave three scum in {ketchup777, Hu Tao, Political Clout, light_ganski, Titus}.

Voting you out of those options rather than any of {PC, light_ganski, Titus} is an odd choice, as there’s no support for it and nobody usesPython believes town suspected you.

If usesPython were sheeping, they would be Voting light_ganski or Titus. Maybe PC. Even if independent, a push on you seems worthless, whereas pressuring the others could be worthwhile.

I struggle to see how a town usesPython arrives with a ketchup777 vote while staying consistent in mindset.

good ideas perchance

[ketchup777]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

If Drew is a godfather wouldn't he see the disloyal cop as the biggest threat to him and try to convince others to push the wagon through like he did?

Pretend the setup is

Setup

1. Mafia Godfather
   
   
2. Mafia Godfather
   
   
3. Mafia Godfather
   
   
4. Town Disloyal Cop
   
   
5. Vanilla Townie
   
   
6. Vanilla Townie
   
   
7. Vanilla Townie
   
   
8. Vanilla Townie
   
   
9. Vanilla Townie
   
   
10. Vanilla Townie
    
    
11. Vanilla Townie
    
    
12. Vanilla Townie
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

What does scum Drew believably claim that lets him get away with immediately believing that Lap is fake claiming while also being a balanced questionable setup

Also there’s like no way that’s the setup what?? Why would scum have godfathers if we have a disloyal cop and nothing else, it’s just like having a cop on normal scum. And why would we have a setup with only one town PR that can easily be killed?? You’re not making any sense

VOTE: usesPython

so close to my mission of voting everyone, coming for you Hu Tao

[ketchup777]

Also why are people looking for consolidation wagons when there's 7 days until the deadline

they say inbetween voting 2 people in the posts before/after this

[ketchup777]

I'm sorry I don't understand. Why would scum!Drew think this is the setup?

The exact setup doesn't as long as scum don't know it's an all cop game, do you think the gamestate supports this or not?

Tbh if you have 3 godfathers it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to figure out that alianna might troll and give town multiple cops

As opposed to trolling mafia by giving town one of the roles that bypass Godfather? Pretty sure we posted a list of those at some point

Ok, so there’s lots of claim opportunities for Drew

[ketchup777]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

If Drew is a godfather wouldn't he see the disloyal cop as the biggest threat to him and try to convince others to push the wagon through like he did?

Pretend the setup is

Setup

1. Mafia Godfather
   
   
2. Mafia Godfather
   
   
3. Mafia Godfather
   
   
4. Town Disloyal Cop
   
   
5. Vanilla Townie
   
   
6. Vanilla Townie
   
   
7. Vanilla Townie
   
   
8. Vanilla Townie
   
   
9. Vanilla Townie
   
   
10. Vanilla Townie
    
    
11. Vanilla Townie
    
    
12. Vanilla Townie
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

What does scum Drew believably claim that lets him get away with immediately believing that Lap is fake claiming while also being a balanced questionable setup

Also there’s like no way that’s the setup what?? Why would scum have godfathers if we have a disloyal cop and nothing else, it’s just like having a cop on normal scum. And why would we have a setup with only one town PR that can easily be killed?? You’re not making any sense

VOTE: usesPython

so close to my mission of voting everyone, coming for you Hu Tao

The setup was an example one to illustrate why Drew claiming cop as scum believably only works in a full cop game, we literally had a mass claim where everyone claimed cop

If Drew is on an all-godfather team, he’s aware he can claim cop and the cop is effectively a VT. He can always get someone to suggest Godfathers being the rulebreak if need be

[ketchup777]

Also why are people looking for consolidation wagons when there's 7 days until the deadline

they say inbetween voting 2 people in the posts before/after this

We didn't want a hammer yet and we didn't like Blacks d2 posting, what is the issue

It sounds like going for a consolidation wagon

[ketchup777]

Proposed cop plan if Light gets hammered:

Ketchup+Jackson—> cop Hu Tao
Hu Tao+Black—> cop Jackson
Ranger+Titus—> cop Doctor Drew
usesPython+Doctor Drew —>cop Black
Political Clout—> cop Ketchup

If you're a modified cop check who you want to check

If you're a regular cop check according to the list and pretend you checked who you wanted to check unless you get a guilty/no result on the person you checked in the list

'pretend you checked who you wanted to check'; how will that work? do we only speak up if we didn’t get an inno and otherwise remain silent?

If we were Town Cop and would want to check Koba as a Disloyal Town Cop we'd Town Cop Black (according to the list) and say we have an inno on Koba

This lets the modifier cops post their results without immediately being obvious from deviating from the list while still letting them check who they want to check. If someone flips Town Cop later in the game it means they got an inno on the person in the list (since otherwise they'd have come out as Town Cop with a guilty/no result)

Ok, but say modifier cops hold back results until Day 4. if we haven’t got a maf out yet, we‘ll be at 4vs3 ELO (assuming 3 scum) and now we don’t have enough time to properly dissect a CC. won’t this just lead to chaos

You get CCs out the way the day before ELO, the same thing would be happening even without this strat

The day before ELO will be Day 3 (9 people alive), assuming we don’t get a scum here. So then whats the point of everyone claiming results if real modifier cops have to make it clear they’re real anyway?

[ketchup777]

"We don't like Blacks posting"

"Sounds like a consolidation wagon"

??? Why are people townreading ketchup again?

Ops on 1454? I feel like cant get much townier than this

[ketchup777]

Also you just keep ignoring that it’s plausible we had some kind of semi-gated PR that could protect Laplacian night 1.

[ketchup777]

Proposed cop plan if Light gets hammered:

Ketchup+Jackson—> cop Hu Tao
Hu Tao+Black—> cop Jackson
Ranger+Titus—> cop Doctor Drew
usesPython+Doctor Drew —>cop Black
Political Clout—> cop Ketchup

If you're a modified cop check who you want to check

If you're a regular cop check according to the list and pretend you checked who you wanted to check unless you get a guilty/no result on the person you checked in the list

'pretend you checked who you wanted to check'; how will that work? do we only speak up if we didn’t get an inno and otherwise remain silent?

If we were Town Cop and would want to check Koba as a Disloyal Town Cop we'd Town Cop Black (according to the list) and say we have an inno on Koba

This lets the modifier cops post their results without immediately being obvious from deviating from the list while still letting them check who they want to check. If someone flips Town Cop later in the game it means they got an inno on the person in the list (since otherwise they'd have come out as Town Cop with a guilty/no result)

Ok, but say modifier cops hold back results until Day 4. if we haven’t got a maf out yet, we‘ll be at 4vs3 ELO (assuming 3 scum) and now we don’t have enough time to properly dissect a CC. won’t this just lead to chaos

You get CCs out the way the day before ELO, the same thing would be happening even without this strat

The day before ELO will be Day 3 (9 people alive), assuming we don’t get a scum here. So then whats the point of everyone claiming results if real modifier cops have to make it clear they’re real anyway?

I’m all for protecting the modifier cops. Just feels like there could be another way

[ketchup777]

Ooh I just had another thought; what if scum were informed to some degree? So they didn’t get caught out in a massclaim? Seems plausible. Like they are informed that the majority of town players are cops.

[ketchup777]

Ooh I just had another thought; what if scum were informed to some degree? So they didn’t get caught out in a massclaim? Seems plausible. Like they are informed that the majority of town players are cops.

Yes, informed is a normal role. This could actually make a lot of sense?

[ketchup777]

The day before ELO will be Day 3 (9 people alive), assuming we don’t get a scum here. So then whats the point of everyone claiming results if real modifier cops have to make it clear they’re real anyway?

This assumes we hit town here

that is why I said 'assuming we don’t get a scum here'

[ketchup777]

But I see your point, I guess ElO is delayed if we hit a town

[ketchup777]

scum*

[ketchup777]

"We don't like Blacks posting"

"Sounds like a consolidation wagon"

??? Why are people townreading ketchup again?

Ops on 1454? I feel like cant get much townier than this

The only thing we'd consider a cop crumb is 516 but given that you also crumbed VT like 3 times and Bulletproof in 493 it raises the question of what the point of the crumbs even were given that you could have believably claimed not-cop and pointed to crumbs

I was trying to leave fake crumbs to spook the mafia

[ketchup777]

do you think I have an obligation to point out fake crumbs if I’m mafia?

[ketchup777]

Also you just keep ignoring that it’s plausible we had some kind of semi-gated PR that could protect Laplacian night 1.

Again, trading a scum member to prevent a green check is a bad trade when you can just not do that and shoot BG, then Lap and then their check instead

I seriously doubt the person who hammers a somewhat strange-looking claim is always voted off the next day. So it’s not really trading a scum member. how about if there’s like a 2-shot doctor? If you don’t push Lap you’re in deep trouble. Scum!Drew was in a rush though. He didn’t have much time to consider all possible scenarios and likely just thought fading Lap seemed safest and most optimal in the heat of the moment.

[ketchup777]

do you think I have an obligation to point out fake crumbs if I’m mafia?

You apparently thought they made your cop claim look more believable

well, it’s up to you to decide. I’m a cop and I fake crumbed soooo

[ketchup777]

Setup Information

Basic Information

Spoiler:

1. This setup is questionable. In fact, it was inspired by the questionable things you can do under normal guidelines thread!
2. There is no guarantee that this game contains any of the ideas in that thread. There is also no guarantee that this game doesn't contain any of the ideas in that thread.

3. Other than not having gone through a formal NRG review, which it most certainly wouldn't pass, the setup violates the letter of Normal guidelines in only one way. It does, however, violate the

spirit

of Normal guidelines in every way possible.[/spoiler]

Spoiler:

4. Even though this game isn't technically Normal, it is tagged as Complex in accordance with Normal guidelines.
5. This game uses Natural Action Resolution.
6. Global daytalk is enabled, meaning all PTs are open during the day even without an encryptor.
7. Inherent multitasking is enabled, meaning that by default, players may perform up to one personal action and one factional action per night.

Win Conditions

8. Each faction wins if all players not aligned with that faction are dead and a minimum of one player aligned with that faction is alive.
9. The game will be declared a draw if:
- all living players request one (this must be done via PM)
- everyone dies
- no one dies for three consecutive day-night cycles (or six consecutive phases)
- the game reaches a position in which one of the above is inevitable or no side has the means to meet its win condition
10. The mafia may concede if all of its living members wish to.

Sample Role PMs

Spoiler:

Sample Vanilla Townie

Welcome, [Player], to Mini Theme 2330!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

You have no special abilities.

Win Condition:

You win if all players not aligned with the town are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Please confirm by replying with the name of your role.

Sample Mafia Goon

Welcome, [Player], to Mini Theme 2330!

You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are [Players].

Abilities:

Factional Communication - You may talk to your partners at any time here.
Factional Kill - Each night, your faction may send one of its members to target another player. Assuming no interference with this action, the target will die. You have access to the factional kill.

Win Condition:

You win if all players not aligned with the mafia are dead and at least one mafia-aligned player is alive, or if nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Please confirm by replying with the name of your role or by posting in the mafia PT.

[/spoiler]

Also you just keep ignoring that it’s plausible we had some kind of semi-gated PR that could protect Laplacian night 1.

Again, trading a scum member to prevent a green check is a bad trade when you can just not do that and shoot BG, then Lap and then their check instead

I seriously doubt the person who hammers a somewhat strange-looking claim is always voted off the next day. So it’s not really trading a scum member. how about if there’s like a 2-shot doctor? If you don’t push Lap you’re in deep trouble. Scum!Drew was in a rush though. He didn’t have much time to consider all possible scenarios and likely just thought fading Lap seemed safest and most optimal in the heat of the moment.

2-shot Doctor with an ungated cop would never pass balance

Source: Our lost sanity in Normal Idea Mafia where it got randed

This game hasn’t passed a setup review, which you should know if you were claiming to have read the rules and setup info? I agree it’s very unlikely we got that much power, but then again, with 9 cops why is there any reasons we’d work out the disloyal cop was the one to protect? If we did, shouldn’t that be rewarded?

[ketchup777]

It's mainly a vibe read for me. I didn't like her posting between pages 57-61. Felt kinda like she was panicking a little after getting wagoned. Then her "strong scumlean" on PC vanished and her justification for it didn't feel good. She has yet to respond to my post questioning her about this which makes me think she doesn't have a good answer and is just avoiding it hoping I won't notice

This is a good post, black returns to townside

[ketchup777]

It wouldn't pass NRG because it violates the spirit or what a Normal game is expected to be. You can still have balanced non-normal games (which seems to be this setup)

Reason why you can expect this game to be in the ballpark of balanced is cause Mafia is a game that's designed to be fun and a ridiculously one-sided setup tends to be pretty unfun

In the rules post I literally just quoted Alianna said it violates the spirit of Normal games in every way possible.?.?.?.?..

[ketchup777]

and as it’s a closed setup I don’t view that as ridiculously one-sided, just swingy as to who works out the disloyal cop first. Scum could well be informed, which I thought was a good point I made recently but you didn’t acknowledge it, which inclines me to believe you might be informed scum trying to hide my thoughts

[ketchup777]

@Doctor Drew, can you explain why you investigated Python?

[ketchup777]

@Python you can make as many arguments as you want but I just belive it’s optimal for scum!Drew to take the easy Lap fade. Especially 1051 felt like a very forced search for the smallest excuse to take Lap out

[ketchup777]

@Python, how far into the night did you submit your cop night action?

[ketchup777]

[quote=usesPython post_id=14115652 post_num=1786 time=<a href="tel:1709836206" style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">1709836206</a> user_id=36963]
It wouldn't pass NRG because it violates the spirit or what a Normal game is expected to be. You can still have balanced non-normal games (which seems to be this setup)

Reason why you can expect this game to be in the ballpark of balanced is cause Mafia is a game that's designed to be fun and a ridiculously one-sided setup tends to be pretty unfun

In the rules post I literally just quoted Alianna said it violates the spirit of Normal games in every way possible.?.?.?.?..

I mean you're wrong by definition since this setup seems to just be godfathers vs a disloyal cop, a bunch of useless cops, a named townie, and then an unspecified but low amount of modifier cops which would absolutely pass normal review if it was reflavored as something like

Normal Version

1. Mafia Goon
   
   
2. Mafia Goon
   
   
3. Mafia Goon
   
   
4. Town Disloyal Cop
   
   
5. Town Rolecop
   (Simulates a Simple/Complex Cop in this setup)
   
6. Town Activated Innocent Child
   (The VT slot here)
   
7. Vanilla Townie
   
   
8. Vanilla Townie
   
   
9. Vanilla Townie
   
   
10. Vanilla Townie
    
    
11. Vanilla Townie
    
    
12. Vanilla Townie
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

This is functionally equivalent to the setup we're in outside of the cop claim stuff and would pass review without much issue, therefore it doesn't violate balance considerations
[/quote]

VT is very much not equivalent to an activated innocent child. how do you know scum wouldn’t have tried to fakeclaim VT? maybe Python is informed scum: informed that there is only one VT

[ketchup777]

quoting messed up so copying:

VT is very much not equivalent to an activated innocent child. how do you know scum wouldn’t have tried to fakeclaim VT? maybe Python is informed scum: informed that there is only one VT

[ketchup777]

@Python, how far into the night did you submit your cop night action?

When we woke up and saw enchant replaced in, why? (Also check that this isn't falling under breaking the rules in the same vein as asking for details about role PMs or other mod communication before you go further cause this sounds pretty angleshooty)

ok, the first line is what I was looking for

[ketchup777]

I guess I could be wrong about that so it's probably just unlikely as opposed to impossible

Imma hold some ideas for a bit about this(not long)

[ketchup777]

i am the ultimate thief of pagetops, sorry

[ketchup777]

anyone feeling anti-serpentine enough to accompany me to the departure of Python?

[ketchup777]

Like ketchup it feels like all these posts are just made to go "oh well it doesn't perfectly 100% exactly match what's happening" instead of actually engaging with the argument being made here

or you’re just reeling because I’m closing in on you

ops on scum being informed? (Take 5)

[ketchup777]

Like ketchup it feels like all these posts are just made to go "oh well it doesn't perfectly 100% exactly match what's happening" instead of actually engaging with the argument being made here

or you’re just reeling because I’m closing in on you

ops on scum being informed? (Take 5)

For every post you quote where you actually engage with our argument we can quote 3 where you go "well um ackshually"

seems like you really don’t want to talk about them being informed eh. should be simple, get a few honest thoughts off?

[ketchup777]

Like if you wanna engage with our arguments we can do that, but you gotta make that first step

I’m not really ignoring your arguments, I’m just constantly calling them into scrutiny when I keep noticing inconsistencies

[ketchup777]

quoting messed up so copying:

VT is very much not equivalent to an activated innocent child. how do you know scum wouldn’t have tried to fakeclaim VT? maybe Python is informed scum: informed that there is only one VT

Also there is literally only one VT in this setup it's Enchant everyone else claimed some type of Cop what are you even talking about

we now know there appears to just be one VT. We’re talking about how the setup would play out from an NRG perspective. How would anyone know there’s only one VT? How can there be any guarantee no one claims VT? Say a town cop and a scum claim VT, that’s nowhere close to an innocent child. unless you know something more than the rest of us that you’d care to share?

[ketchup777]

Like if you wanna engage with our arguments we can do that, but you gotta make that first step

I’m not really ignoring your arguments, I’m just constantly calling them into scrutiny when I keep noticing inconsistencies

Yeah see this is what we mean, latest example how relevant is it that the VT here doesn't map 1 to 1 to an activated IC when the actual question at hand is would a similar setup pass nrg on balance concerns

But I’m telling you that that’s not a similar setup (at least on the innocent child bit) so is a null point

[ketchup777]

Still think light should be the vote

you might need to speak a bit louder the light wagon is crumbling

[ketchup777]

Like if you wanna engage with our arguments we can do that, but you gotta make that first step

I’m not really ignoring your arguments, I’m just constantly calling them into scrutiny when I keep noticing inconsistencies

Yeah see this is what we mean, latest example how relevant is it that the VT here doesn't map 1 to 1 to an activated IC when the actual question at hand is would a similar setup pass nrg on balance concerns

But I’m telling you that that’s not a similar setup (at least on the innocent child bit) so is a null point

Look idk what you want from us, we made a similar normal-legal setup in like 2 minutes and decided to make the Enchant slot Activated IC cause it fit the similar function of "this slot is basically confirmed"

You’re dodging my point by saying that I’m dodging your points. Just because the VT has played out as an innocent child, doesn’t make it an innocent child in a setup. it’s a named townie, something you had previously acknowledged, not an IC.

[ketchup777]

Still think light should be the vote

you might need to speak a bit louder the light wagon is crumbling

No I'm trying to blend in. I don't want people to know I could be mafia.

Aha fairsies

[ketchup777]

who you gonna call? pythonbustersss

[ketchup777]

Named Townie is not normal legal unless they changed that in the recent normal rework which is why we didnt use it

me feels something like a Backup Jailkeeper would be a better named townie example

[ketchup777]

Named Townie is not normal legal unless they changed that in the recent normal rework which is why we didnt use it

He’s saying it acts as one, which it doesn’t.

I’m confused who you’re supporting

[ketchup777]

Named Townie is not normal legal unless they changed that in the recent normal rework which is why we didnt use it

me feels something like a Backup Jailkeeper would be a better named townie example

See that would be cool if we thought of that earlier, except we didnt

big oopsie!

python is def scum informed that there is only one VT and slipped massively

maybe

[ketchup777]

Im saying that it wasn’t guaranteed that we would get into a massclaim where Enchant was the only VT. I thought this would be clear, and so you would strive to find some other equivalent role than activated innocent child. Yet you seem to think that Enchant would always be confirmable at some point, which suggests you know something town don’t

[ketchup777]

Like yes, Disloyal Cop/Vanilla Cop/Backup Friendly Neighbor would be a more accurate representation of the setup, we just didn't think to make it cause 100% accuracy wasn't what we cared about

ok

[ketchup777]

Because the argument wasn't "Is this alternate setup a 1to1 representation of this game" but "Would this game pass balance" which is what we were arguing about

sure I’ll let it go but take 7: Ops on scum being informed?

[ketchup777]

Im saying that it wasn’t guaranteed that we would get into a massclaim where Enchant was the only VT. I thought this would be clear, and so you would strive to find some other equivalent role than activated innocent child. Yet you seem to think that Enchant would always be confirmable at some point, which suggests you know something town don’t

Wait no this doesn't make sense, the only way massclaim happens without Enchant being only VT claim is if scum claim VT which for your argument would imply we can't be informed?

If you’re town, you would have no way of knowing that Enchant would be equiv to innocent child, as scum might claim VT.

On the flipside, if you’re scum (maybe or maybe not informed that there’s only one VT) you may have already decided that none of you would claim VT, so it would seem more natural to scumslip that Enchant would always be conftown.

Honestly, i expected you to counterattack me by saying that it was unlikely there was an informed scum in the setup. Not this kind of delayed response trying to get out of it, when it shouldn’t be playing on your mind that much… unless you’re desperately trying to get rid of the accusation as scum?

[ketchup777]

Can you like break down what Informed information would let someone be informed Enchant is always confirmable

Being informed that there is only one VT in the setup, combined with agreeing in scum PT that none of you would claim VT, would make it likely there is only one VT claim. You knowingly create an Innocent Child but it might be preferable to creating a pool of claimed VTs to shoot in containing at least 50% mafia

[ketchup777]

No we just straight up didn't get the argument being made but we also just spent the past 3 pages arguing past each other until you suddenly made a semi-understandable post so we thought we missed something again

soz thought I’d been being clear but maybe not

[ketchup777]

Also like being informed there is only one VT is probably combined with being Godfathers. Now the safer claim comes to light: town cop

[ketchup777]

Can you like break down what Informed information would let someone be informed Enchant is always confirmable

Being informed that there is only one VT in the setup, combined with agreeing in scum PT that none of you would claim VT, would make it likely there is only one VT claim. You knowingly create an Innocent Child but it might be preferable to creating a pool of claimed VTs to shoot in containing at least 50% mafia

I mean outside of forcing 1v1s the only reason for scum to claim anything but Cop is by accident from not knowing the setup for exactly that reason (creating an IC and then shooting them is better numbers-wise than 50% chance of creating an IC if you lose the 1v1 and 100% chance of dying after that even if you win the 1v1)

yes cool

so either scum are informed, or they worked out the setup themselves pretty quickly, or they were late to the massclaim. or a mix of these

[ketchup777]

hmm actually yeah I can see how that'd make you think we're informed

UNVOTE: ketchup

(:

sorry to put you in circles for ages

[ketchup777]

Ketchup you think scum were informed about the setup, if they werent who do you think fits the bill for "figured it out d2"

Do you mean figured it out before d2, or during d2?

[ketchup777]

Man it's weird being on the Ranger Rollercoaster of Reads from the other side, the whiplash from Ketchup making a seeming shitpush to having a coherent point is wild

hehehe

Ketchup you think scum were informed about the setup, if they werent who do you think fits the bill for "figured it out d2"

Do you mean figured it out before d2, or during d2?

Like at or post koba flip

I’ll think about it and get back to you in a few mins

[ketchup777]

Titus and I crumbed cop so are either informed scum or figured it out early (i accidentally typed informed cum initially lmao)

Enchant, Laplacian, Koba irrelevant.

Jackson and Drew had the cryptic back and forth after seeing 2 cop flips, but also showed signs (Jackson more than Drew imo) of being cops at the end of Day 1 by voting Koba.

Ranger could have figured it out D2. She was late to the party and claimed to not be a normal cop, which is odd considering she only had one vote on her at this point.

Political Clout very much fits the bill of figured it out on D2. His unvote/voting on Light has bad cop equity as others have pointed out, and he was the penultimate person to claim cop.

Light I'm not sure but her being the last cop claim could suggest she figured it out late, but also could be mafia lying in wait for others' claims to work out what to claim. The delayed bringing out of claiming an inconclusive result on Enchant could have been molded and manufactured in the scum PT.

You usesPython could be informed as we've just done to death. If not I'm not sure.


Hu Tao is hard to read, but I think her 1094 somewhat leans to figuring it out d2 on vibes.


Black not sure. 1125 could be prepared, prefigured out

sorry for delay had to go search for a book (could not find it ): )

[ketchup777]

Wanna vote PC with us?

what are your opinions on mayonnaise?

[ketchup777]

answer carefully

[ketchup777]

I checked Titus. Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted I'm at work rn. Be back later.

this is a bit of an odd post. not seeing the possibility of more than one cop is?? like maybe we have another disloyal cop and some ascetic cops that would seem fair

[ketchup777]

Titus and I crumbed cop so are either informed scum or figured it out early (i accidentally typed informed cum initially lmao)

Enchant, Laplacian, Koba irrelevant.

Jackson and Drew had the cryptic back and forth after seeing 2 cop flips, but also showed signs (Jackson more than Drew imo) of being cops at the end of Day 1 by voting Koba.

Ranger could have figured it out D2. She was late to the party and claimed to not be a normal cop, which is odd considering she only had one vote on her at this point.

Political Clout very much fits the bill of figured it out on D2. His unvote/voting on Light has bad cop equity as others have pointed out, and he was the penultimate person to claim cop.

Light I'm not sure but her being the last cop claim could suggest she figured it out late, but also could be mafia lying in wait for others' claims to work out what to claim. The delayed bringing out of claiming an inconclusive result on Enchant could have been molded and manufactured in the scum PT.

You usesPython could be informed as we've just done to death. If not I'm not sure.

Hu Tao is hard to read, but I think her 1094 somewhat leans to figuring it out d2 on vibes.

Black not sure. 1125 could be prepared, prefigured out

sorry for delay had to go search for a book (could not find it ): )

following your logic wouldn't that mean I'm town.

why would it mean that. if you're a genuine cop you don't have anything to 'figure out'

[ketchup777]

fitting the bill of uninformed majority.

you should be informed enough to see 'cop' in your role PM

[ketchup777]

I checked Titus. Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted I'm at work rn. Be back later.

this is a bit of an odd post. not seeing the possibility of more than one cop is?? like maybe we have another disloyal cop and some ascetic cops that would seem fair

yes indeed like how would I know.

you seemed to discount the possibility of there being more than one modified cop for ... reasons?

[ketchup777]

Wanna vote PC with us?

what are your opinions on mayonnaise?

Hate it

you win my undying support for a PC vote

Spoiler:

Titus and I crumbed cop so are either informed scum or figured it out early (i accidentally typed informed cum initially lmao)

Enchant, Laplacian, Koba irrelevant.

Jackson and Drew had the cryptic back and forth after seeing 2 cop flips, but also showed signs (Jackson more than Drew imo) of being cops at the end of Day 1 by voting Koba.

Ranger could have figured it out D2. She was late to the party and claimed to not be a normal cop, which is odd considering she only had one vote on her at this point.

Political Clout very much fits the bill of figured it out on D2. His unvote/voting on Light has bad cop equity as others have pointed out, and he was the penultimate person to claim cop.

Light I'm not sure but her being the last cop claim could suggest she figured it out late, but also could be mafia lying in wait for others' claims to work out what to claim. The delayed bringing out of claiming an inconclusive result on Enchant could have been molded and manufactured in the scum PT.

You usesPython could be informed as we've just done to death. If not I'm not sure.

Hu Tao is hard to read, but I think her 1094 somewhat leans to figuring it out d2 on vibes.

Black not sure. 1125 could be prepared, prefigured out

sorry for delay had to go search for a book (could not find it ): )

following your logic wouldn't that mean I'm town.

why would it mean that. if you're a genuine cop you don't have anything to 'figure out'

you caught me I'm actually scum.
[/quote]

it's so simple sometimes

VOTE: Political Clout

[ketchup777]

I checked Titus. Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted I'm at work rn. Be back later.

this is a bit of an odd post. not seeing the possibility of more than one cop is?? like maybe we have another disloyal cop and some ascetic cops that would seem fair

yes indeed like how would I know.

you seemed to discount the possibility of there being more than one modified cop for ... reasons?

okay. I don't know where you are going with this.

nor do I

[ketchup777]

Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted

what do you mean by this

VOTE: ranger

on the contrary, a setup where our only useful role can die in one night seems unfair, no?

That's not what happened. And it does seem fair to me.

How do you know that's not what happened?

[ketchup777]

I checked Titus. Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted I'm at work rn. Be back later.

this is a bit of an odd post. not seeing the possibility of more than one cop is?? like maybe we have another disloyal cop and some ascetic cops that would seem fair

yes indeed like how would I know.

you seemed to discount the possibility of there being more than one modified cop for ... reasons?

okay. I don't know where you are going with this.

nor do I

good talk I guess.

just gonna get to the end of your ISO firstttttttttttttttttttt

[ketchup777]

Like your first reaction to that claim should be "No way there's two whole ass ungated cops in a mini that's unbalanced as hell"

I'm still not following. if you're going off of what my reaction ought to be or should be then you're wrong.

Do you think having two ungated cops is a fair amount of power in a mini (without the godfathers since you wouldn't know that as town) compared to the possibility that Lap was just scum fakeclaiming?

I have no idea how to answer this as I play every game as if it is mountainous. I caught him in a lie and decided it was best to eliminate him.

why would you play every game as if it's mountainous

[ketchup777]

Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted

what do you mean by this

VOTE: ranger

on the contrary, a setup where our only useful role can die in one night seems unfair, no?

That's not what happened. And it does seem fair to me.

How do you know that's not what happened?

lap died day 1 not night 1

I meant the modal application of 'can', maybe I should have used 'could'. Irrelevant to when Lap died, I meant one where we can lose our only useful role before getting any cop results seems a bit poopoo

[ketchup777]

Like your first reaction to that claim should be "No way there's two whole ass ungated cops in a mini that's unbalanced as hell"

I'm still not following. if you're going off of what my reaction ought to be or should be then you're wrong.

Do you think having two ungated cops is a fair amount of power in a mini (without the godfathers since you wouldn't know that as town) compared to the possibility that Lap was just scum fakeclaiming?

I have no idea how to answer this as I play every game as if it is mountainous. I caught him in a lie and decided it was best to eliminate him.

why would you play every game as if it's mountainous

it's more fun that way.

doesn't seem very practical.

maybe you started playing this one like a mountainous because you're one of 3 Godfathers?

[ketchup777]

Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted

what do you mean by this

VOTE: ranger

on the contrary, a setup where our only useful role can die in one night seems unfair, no?

That's not what happened. And it does seem fair to me.

How do you know that's not what happened?

lap died day 1 not night 1

I meant the modal application of 'can', maybe I should have used 'could'. Irrelevant to when Lap died, I meant one where we can lose our only useful role before getting any cop results seems a bit poopoo

it seems fine to me honestly 1 cop 3 goons a bunch of people 1 cleared vt.

do you think the VT counts as a confirmed townie?

[ketchup777]

Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted

what do you mean by this

VOTE: ranger

on the contrary, a setup where our only useful role can die in one night seems unfair, no?

That's not what happened. And it does seem fair to me.

How do you know that's not what happened?

lap died day 1 not night 1

I meant the modal application of 'can', maybe I should have used 'could'. Irrelevant to when Lap died, I meant one where we can lose our only useful role before getting any cop results seems a bit poopoo

it seems fine to me honestly 1 cop 3 goons a bunch of people 1 cleared vt.

do you think the VT counts as a confirmed townie?

When looking at the setup, not this current gamestate

[ketchup777]

VOTE: ranger

on the contrary, a setup where our only useful role can die in one night seems unfair, no?

That's not what happened. And it does seem fair to me.

How do you know that's not what happened?

lap died day 1 not night 1

I meant the modal application of 'can', maybe I should have used 'could'. Irrelevant to when Lap died, I meant one where we can lose our only useful role before getting any cop results seems a bit poopoo

it seems fine to me honestly 1 cop 3 goons a bunch of people 1 cleared vt.

do you think the VT counts as a confirmed townie?

When looking at the setup, not this current gamestate

I don't really care about the setup.

in 1889 you were talking with me about the setup?...

[ketchup777]

woahh you joined in 2011? that's crazy

[ketchup777]

woahh you joined in 2011? that's crazy

you should read the first game I was so young and so delusional.

...link?

[ketchup777]

That's not what happened. And it does seem fair to me.

How do you know that's not what happened?

lap died day 1 not night 1

I meant the modal application of 'can', maybe I should have used 'could'. Irrelevant to when Lap died, I meant one where we can lose our only useful role before getting any cop results seems a bit poopoo

it seems fine to me honestly 1 cop 3 goons a bunch of people 1 cleared vt.

do you think the VT counts as a confirmed townie?

When looking at the setup, not this current gamestate

I don't really care about the setup.

in 1889 you were talking with me about the setup?...

rats you caught me. that one post you found the layers of depth to it that I talk about the setup the levels of hidden meaning that i'm talking about the setup. like what are you on about?

I just want to talk to you about your saying

godfather
godfather
godfather
disloyal cop
VT
8xtown cop

is a fair setup. seems disloyal cop might accidentally out themselves day2 if they're alive and it goes into cop claiming before realising that's fatal. Now town are very dead

[ketchup777]

woahh you joined in 2011? that's crazy

you should read the first game I was so young and so delusional.

...link?

they're all on my wiki.

ah fun i'll look sometime maybe

[ketchup777]

lap died day 1 not night 1

I meant the modal application of 'can', maybe I should have used 'could'. Irrelevant to when Lap died, I meant one where we can lose our only useful role before getting any cop results seems a bit poopoo

it seems fine to me honestly 1 cop 3 goons a bunch of people 1 cleared vt.

do you think the VT counts as a confirmed townie?

When looking at the setup, not this current gamestate

I don't really care about the setup.

in 1889 you were talking with me about the setup?...

rats you caught me. that one post you found the layers of depth to it that I talk about the setup the levels of hidden meaning that i'm talking about the setup. like what are you on about?

I just want to talk to you about your saying

godfather
godfather
godfather
disloyal cop
VT
8xtown cop

is a fair setup. seems disloyal cop might accidentally out themselves day2 if they're alive and it goes into cop claiming before realising that's fatal. Now town are very dead

It seems fair to me. I don't see why we can't keep playing makes it more fun with the disloyal cop gone.

isn't 3 masons 7 VT vs goons supposed to be balanced? yet the above setup might easily get to a point where only 1 person is confirmable. plus masons have private topic and stuff

[ketchup777]

isn't 3 masons 7 VT vs goons supposed to be balanced? yet the above setup might easily get to a point where only 1 person is confirmable. plus masons have private topic and stuff

Friends and Enemies

yeah cool so this suggests that we have at least one other cop with modifiers (let's not go too deeply into this incase of info leaks tho) and PC was coming at it from a weird angle

[ketchup777]

isn't 3 masons 7 VT vs goons supposed to be balanced? yet the above setup might easily get to a point where only 1 person is confirmable. plus masons have private topic and stuff

Friends and Enemies

yeah cool so this suggests that we have at least one other cop with modifiers (let's not go too deeply into this incase of info leaks tho) and PC was coming at it from a weird angle

ranger already said it was them.

and do you believe her?

[ketchup777]

isn't 3 masons 7 VT vs goons supposed to be balanced? yet the above setup might easily get to a point where only 1 person is confirmable. plus masons have private topic and stuff

Friends and Enemies

yeah cool so this suggests that we have at least one other cop with modifiers (let's not go too deeply into this incase of info leaks tho) and PC was coming at it from a weird angle

ranger already said it was them.

and do you believe her?

no cc so sure.

Light also claimed not standard cop in 1379. And you certainly didn't seem to believe Ranger in 1228?