Mini 2331 - Touhou UPick: Anonymous Edition (Game Over)

[Daiyousei]

hello every1 ^_^ pleasure to make your acquaintances

hi larva! hi piece!! hi star!!! wow piece you got way smarterer than the day before yesterday did your boss do something for you? and star you got super tall! oh no does that mean i'm no longer the dai yousei now?????? v_v

wait how is a youkai a human when that human is also right over there what sort of magic is that!!! it makes my head hurt so i'm just going to ignore it ?_?

VOTE: Sanae Kochiya

don't be a meanie to larva!

[Daiyousei]

a bit of fairy wisdom: if the great and all-powerful lady yuuka kazami notices you, everything she says and does is correct! just make sure you lie down in the grass and stay completely still so she doesn't notice you to begin with ^_^

Mod notes are confusing.

Each player has approximately a 50% chance that their Account Name and the Role Name are the same. Kagerou is apparently in the 50% that are different, and

Kagerou Imaizumi (account name) is confirmed to be Marisa Kirisame (role name)

First off thank you Kaguya for making me aware of this post again. Second off:
Not actually true. I personally was given the choice to have my name be either from my picks, or completely random, and have no reason believe only I was given that choice. Moreover, you pick 3 characters anyway, and getting the same name is... not exactly 50%, now is it.

um, please excuse me, miss! i have a question about this: piece said she knew what she knew because she asked the mod about it (tho why did she ask miss yakumo and not her boss???) does this mean you asked the mod about and got different info? (also piece explained the 50% thing later! you shouldn't question fairy math, we have a classroom for it that's perfect and everything)

[Daiyousei]

Yaaawn

VOTE: Clownpiece

hey! listen! what has piece said or done since your previous vote that prompted this?

[Daiyousei]

Nothing! I just felt like joining the wagon because I like the people on it!

?_? what do you like about the bunny rabbit though? i can understand someone liking the doggie but the bunny hasn't done much of anything

[Daiyousei]

?_? what do you like about the bunny rabbit though?

also asking this of the doggie because of post 92!

[Daiyousei]

Nothing! I just felt like joining the wagon because I like the people on it!

?_? what do you like about the bunny rabbit though? i can understand someone liking the doggie but the bunny hasn't done much of anything

Can someone just clarify who the bunny rabbit and doggie are?

I think i'm doggie (werewolf) and reisen is the bunny rabbit

this is correct! so to be clear this question was for you

[Daiyousei]

I'm willing to vote any of Kaguya, Tenshi or Daiyousei to try and move the needle on them a bit, as they've all kinda disappeared

when you're the great fairy you have great responsibilities!

i don't get why ichirin got votes the way sie did ?_? well i guess i get

why

it happened but i don't think those votes were proper investigationizing...i would be willing to vote koishi of the three of them because i particularly don't really understand why town koishi would say everything they've said but then vote for me and ichirin instead of sanae, but that's second to this

VOTE: Kagerou Imaizumi

i'm so sorry if this comes across as impolite ;_; but your iso is chock full of fluff (which i guess is fitting for a doggie, but) and weak and noncommittal stances! posts 52, 57, and 61 all together look like an attempt to look like you're helping, as do 104 and 128 (both individually and together with 135), as does 195, as does the sequence about declaring there must be a mafia in the list of people with self-obfuscating roles, as does the yuuka part of 303

i see 146 and can't agree that claiming ascetic is anything other than neutral, it could easily be a mafia role and would make sense for a mafia person to immediately claim it if it were true

since piece appears to be your strongest committed stance i would like to hear more about the idea that piece has "been trying to distract people from pushing fowards the game" from 162 because i read piece's iso to that point and don't understand where this conclusion came from

Dai felt more upset that I was being considered townie for doing nothing and I could see that as more scum frustration. So could I can see multiple worlds there.

your one post did not read strongly in either direction so i simply wanted to know why people had such a positive opinion of it that they'd say so! it was something i felt i could actually ask about after all the role and mechanical talk made my head spin @_@

[Daiyousei]

Needle has moved, everyone mentioned showed up. It's that shrimple.

Are you taking credit for time passing and people having time to post?

ichirin's a stand user! stand users have bizarre powers sometimes @_@

[Daiyousei]

sorry, just a great bit of fairy humor

i am down with yuuka's vote for aya! i can't tell if aya is being intentionally do-nothing or if it's just roleplaying a character that claims she tries to not get involved in stuff because reporters shouldn't make the news, but even if it's the second one the player should know the character always ends up getting involved anyway

i particularly don't really understand why town koishi would say everything they've said but then vote for me and ichirin instead of sanae

I do not believe in solo voting pet scumreads because I don't think there is any point to it. Solo votes are essentially useless. No mafia is ever going to feel "pressured" off a solo vote, you're essentially giving up your voting power for no gain. A game state with 1 or 2 votes everywhere is a game that's going nowhere because mafia are never in danger of feeling pressure to do anything.

I am not "sure" Sanae is mafia; I only present my thoughts as I have them, if some people decide to listen to me and want to wagon Sanae, that's useful information and then I will likely vote there because then there's a real threat. If people are dismissive of my reads, so be it, more likely than not just on pure probability I am wrong and its not an avenue worth pursuing.

hmm...i don't think i can agree with this specific gameplay approach, but i guess it's not an unreasonable conclusion to reach from the more basic premise of "the only vote that matters is the last one", which it feels like we might agree on? i guess i personally just don't feel any pressure from relatively empty votes, even if multiple people are voting for me - fairies are used to being hated, after all! though i get that you famously don't like being hated, so maybe that's where the difference comes

(ed. note: this is not a hated claim)

i don't really have much to say in response to 385 because there isn't much to respond to in the first place >_> i do find it kinda funny that kagerou acknowledges my post about them in a way that just adds to the point i was making, as does the rest of the second half of their post

[Daiyousei]

I don't understand how anyone can have a strong townread on her!

is anyone actually saying this other than kagerou?

also, is this your entire reason for voting for kaguya? because i didn't see you say anything else about her in your iso ?_?

as long as that list is there:

- koishi i am starting to falter on because this might just be a fundamental difference in what good play is and disagreements on fundamentals do not mafia make
- i'd happily vote aya
- not gonna vote for myself lol ^_^
- i'm not particularly interested in voting ichirin; i'm not convinced sie's town but nothing that's happened in hir orbit so far has me thinking voting hir is worthwhile
- the same can be applied to kaguya

[Daiyousei]

~_~

i knew all those fanworks about yuuka originally being a fairy were accurate!!!! ^_^

[Daiyousei]

- those numbers don't really match up with what other people have been told

may i request a source on this, please? i remember ichirin pointing out the maths didn't math but then later realizing that the maths actually did math and it's just that the mod weighted things weird @_@

I kinda didn't know how to put it into words at the time but like, knowing your exact number of townreads on command is weird

I’m too lazy to clip quotes. I think the townread number on command bit is the most compelling part of your argument here actually.

But only in a very general sense.

Yes I can see that kind of thing as much more scum indicative than town indicative. Even subconsciously scum are going to have a roadmap of what slots they think they can have miselimmed and it will probably manipulate their pool to townread in some way.

Just…mafia players are a lot more nebulous than that, it may not be as on the nose as that. But I like how you’re using your noodle.

not to answer for piece on this, but with the way i've set up how i'm playing this game to make sure i don't have a sudden out-of-body experience i could very easily produce an exact number of confident townreads instantly if i really wanted to

[Daiyousei]

I don't understand how anyone can have a strong townread on her!

is anyone actually saying this other than kagerou?

also, is this your entire reason for voting for kaguya? because i didn't see you say anything else about her in your iso ?_?

as long as that list is there:

- koishi i am starting to falter on because this might just be a fundamental difference in what good play is and disagreements on fundamentals do not mafia make
- i'd happily vote aya
- not gonna vote for myself lol ^_^
- i'm not particularly interested in voting ichirin; i'm not convinced sie's town but nothing that's happened in hir orbit so far has me thinking voting hir is worthwhile
- the same can be applied to kaguya

What makes someone a good vote candidate? And what vote would make you feel warm and fuzzy inside?

people that post sensible content give me the warm fuzzies! people that make an effort to look like they are contributing but are not actually contributing make good vote candidates! see my posts here and here for some examples of people doing this

Lastly, I should note that I have little to no flavor knowledge so if there's a nickname that I should be aware of that is relevant to your username, please let me know. I don't suppose any kind souls have made a chart of these already, like a decoder ring?

human: marisa
half-human half-god: sanae
youkai: aya (tengu, journalist), yuuka (flowers), kagerou (werewolf), koishi (satori), ichirin (partnered with an old man cloud), reisen (rabbit)
fairies: dai(yousei), (eternity) larva, (clown)piece
other: tenshi (celestial), kaguya (alien from the moon)

players familiar with the franchise may make in-jokes from time to time but you won't need to know about it to understand the actual game content (or at least i will always try to post like that)

[Daiyousei]

i could see myself eventually vote marisa depending on her promised response to this; "high charisma meh slot" is a description that matches my ~fairy feels~ about her so far that haven't really been able to put into words

newkoi saying they like kagerou's body of work gives me the sads in light of my post on the matter ;_; fairies are used to being ignored but that doesn't make it suck any less!

488 is a really weird question to ask of the post it's quoting and 490 is a really weird response because it takes the question seriously! i feel like i'm the one missing something here @_@

actually hmmm

one thing i find weird is how Marisa didn't include Tenshi in her vote pool

VOTE: Tenshi

why move to tenshi instead of sticking with me? did she move lower than me in your eyes since the last time you mentioned her? (i promise i am not a masochist!)

[Daiyousei]

Kagerou is not kaguya…kagerou is not kaguya…

how can you forget your own princess??? did all those pitfall traps and shady drugs finally break you?

[Daiyousei]

488 is a really weird question to ask of the post it's quoting and 490 is a really weird response because it takes the question seriously! i feel like i'm the one missing something here @_@

(1)

actually hmmm

one thing i find weird is how Marisa didn't include Tenshi in her vote pool

VOTE: Tenshi

why move to tenshi instead of sticking with me? did she move lower than me in your eyes since the last time you mentioned her? (i promise i am not a masochist!)

(2)

(1) : What's so weird about it ? I mean, i guess for 488 i can see how it seems forced but what kind of reply were you expecting?

(2) : I think voting my 3rd strongest scumread is more interesting than voting you, and i invite anyone else who's on the fence with Tenshi to do the same

rewrote for clarity

1) if i were koishi writing 490 my response to "does this mean you're townreading them?" would have been "i literally just said, in the post you quoted, 'I have to decide if that makes them town, or just sociable'"

like 488 read to me as asking a question of a post where the answer to that question was in the post being highlighted! this is why 490 taking 488 seriously is also weird to me and why i wondered aloud if instead i am the moron ?_?

(don't answer that)

2) what makes a tenshi vote more interesting than a vote for me? maybe this is the self-loathing from generations of fairy hatred kicking in but i see myself as more likely to get exterminated than tenshi at this point in the game, so i don't understand why you'd vote tenshi ahead of me while thinking i'm more likely to be mafia

newkoi saying they like kagerou's body of work gives me the sads in light of my post on the matter ;_; fairies are used to being ignored but that doesn't make it suck any less!

I read the post, I just don't fully (or mostly, actually) agree with your conclusions.

;_; why not? i tried so hard.......

Can you write me an expose on what makes Ichirin so town? Maybe I just struggle to see it as I haven’t read all about it.

This reporter has said all she needs say on the topic, and is quite frankly sort of over this game. Three different slots have now taken bad faith arguments with her and she's lost quite literally all motivation to try. This is an anonymous game which means users cannot rely on their repuation to be able to save themselves, which means a user

coming out and being aggressively mediocre in a game like this will frequently lead to their elimination.

This is not the tactic scum normally takes, nor does this reporter think Ichirin is giving anything but the straight truth in how she is behaving. That's all you're getting from me.

So umm, not saying i read your alignement based on that but are you implying you're being intentionally mediocre?

wow! this is by far the worst post i've seen all game! @_@ it contributes nothing to the hunting process and is obviously designed just to kick a clearly hurting player while they're down

in an iso vacuum i'm still not thrilled with aya's body of work but this post and sanae co-signing it in 598 makes me want absolutely nothing to do with voting aya for the foreseeable future and everything to do with exterminating the kagerou/sanae mafpair asap

[Daiyousei]

as long as ichirin is going to continue to be a focal point of this game it would be nice if everyone could use the correct pronouns for hir tia <3

I like the reporter bit, maybe the one off commentary isn’t a good format for the game though.

The news is modernizing.

Yeahhhh, I was starting to hit that too. I'll have to think on how to, uh, keep up with the Times no pun intended.

sounds like this reporter needs to get some new roamin' in! lol ^_^

2) what makes a tenshi vote more interesting than a vote for me? maybe this is the self-loathing from generations of fairy hatred kicking in but i see myself as more likely to get exterminated than tenshi at this point in the game, so i don't understand why you'd vote tenshi ahead of me while thinking i'm more likely to be mafia

[

Can you write me an expose on what makes Ichirin so town? Maybe I just struggle to see it as I haven’t read all about it.

This reporter has said all she needs say on the topic, and is quite frankly sort of over this game. Three different slots have now taken bad faith arguments with her and she's lost quite literally all motivation to try. This is an anonymous game which means users cannot rely on their repuation to be able to save themselves, which means a user

coming out and being aggressively mediocre in a game like this will frequently lead to their elimination.

This is not the tactic scum normally takes, nor does this reporter think Ichirin is giving anything but the straight truth in how she is behaving. That's all you're getting from me.

So umm, not saying i read your alignement based on that but are you implying you're being intentionally mediocre?

wow! this is by far the worst post i've seen all game! @_@ it contributes nothing to the hunting process and is obviously designed just to kick a clearly hurting player while they're down

in an iso vacuum i'm still not thrilled with aya's body of work but this post and sanae co-signing it in 598 makes me want absolutely nothing to do with voting aya for the foreseeable future and everything to do with exterminating the kagerou/sanae mafpair asap

2) I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you, i feel like the general avoidance around this slot could come from a place of more well inserted scumbuddies uneasy with the idea of drawing the light to their weak like

Aya answer) Yeah this one is totally my bad, i completely misunderstood what the post was saying be assured that even if i was scum, i would not deliberately abuse / take advantage of someone being sad to try to "kick them" that's just like... straight up abusive

2) assuming your interest in seeing people's stances on tenshi is honest, what effort did you make to draw those stances out between the tenshi vote and the post i am responding to with this question? (this actually ties pretty neatly into what yuuka and piece have been saying about you lately)

a(yayaya)) on a personal/player level, i'm perfectly happy to grant the comment was a mistake that you regret in retrospect...but on a gameplay level, in the moment you thought that comment was a good idea, and i can only see a mafia-aligned player thinking in the moment that comment was a good idea because there were plenty of possible reactions that would be pro-mafia but basically no plausible reactions that would be pro-town

my expectation of a confused town response would to be to realize that aya very likely isn't saying those things about herself, try to figure out who she might be talking about instead, and ask for clarification, e.g. "just to be sure, is this post about

unknown

player x?"

in an iso vacuum i'm still not thrilled with aya's body of work but this post and sanae co-signing it in 598 makes me want absolutely nothing to do with voting aya for the foreseeable future and everything to do with exterminating the kagerou/sanae mafpair asap

Looking at the two posts, I felt like Sanae's 598 was a demonstrably different point, not just "co-signing" the original

mmm...in rereading it i guess it is pretty less bad, yeah v_v point withdrawn there

I’m curious of a lot of player’s thoughts on dai’s post.

me too! sadly we don't seem to be getting too many ;_;

newkoi saying they like kagerou's body of work gives me the sads in light of my post on the matter ;_; fairies are used to being ignored but that doesn't make it suck any less!

I read the post, I just don't fully (or mostly, actually) agree with your conclusions.

;_; why not? i tried so hard.......

also i was re-reading and like, why this reaction?

the question of "why not" was a genuine one because koishi is the first person i can remember publicly disagreeing with what i wrote in that post

the rest is roleplay @_@

[Daiyousei]

God, the will they or won’t they is palpable.

doujin artists furiously examining the dynamics of the previously-never-considered koilarva crack ship as we speak

[Daiyousei]

reisen sits pretty squarely in my null pile as a background existence in this game - i don't have any particularly notable thoughts about her

maybe "i don't recall anything actively bad, i did forget once that she was playing but that was earlier in the game" is enough to be "notable"? i would rather pursue others i actively like less or at least more frequently forget are playing the game but i am not horribly broken up by the vote attention being sent her way

[Daiyousei]

This is the main games rating, not Ao3.

BONK to horny jail with you lot.

fantastic pagetop, 10/10 no notes

great work, team!

[Daiyousei]

And I also felt none of her posts are town indicative. Anything that looks town indicative can be faked with a bit of practice! So that's why I voted.

i can generically understand the first sentence here as vote justification in a vacuum (though i would need way more explanation than you just saying it to buy into it), but i don't understand why it was comboed with the second sentence? the second sentence seems way more applicable to the four non-kaguya people on your extermination list (especially since you already said it about them in 402), so why bring it up in the context of someone who you say has no town-indicative posts? @_@

i also actually do want an answer to my first question you quoted there, because "i don't understand how anyone can have a strong townread on (kaguya)!" is presented as though multiple people had a strong townread on her, when in fact only one person, kagerou, had stated such a read that i could see ?_? it comes across as sensationalizing the vote/opinion so it

looks

better without actually having the extra support necessary to

be

better

also Dai while you're here, do you have any non-Kagerou scum reads at this point?

i love your relentless passion on that front but i recently detailed why i'm doubting that scum read a bit, what are your thoughts on that?

i would need an explanation for why/how 596 comes from town before i began buying into a town!kagerou argument

with regard to "being purposefully difficult/contrary" i don't think there's necessarily anything alignment-indicative to be read into sticking to one's guns versus changing playstyle to acquiesce to the crowd...maybe i'm not understanding what you're saying here correctly?

beyond kagerou, i can see marisa and sanae as mafia, because i tend to not recall their contributions to the thread very well despite marisa feeling like the center of attention for a while and sanae's relatively high post count; marisa's suspect vote for kaguya also rankles me

i would revisit aya in the event of a kagerou town flip, as much as i don't think that's going to happen

koishi i need to reread to get an idea of who they think is mafia

not particularly digging the idea of voting for anyone else in the game at the moment

[Daiyousei]

While Aya has stuck to character at the expense of game content, which makes her unreadable, she didn't pretend to contribute!

she posted a bunch without providing meaningful game content, i'm not sure how much more "pretend to contribute" one can get!

On the other hand, I also looked at your Kagerou case. And I also disagree there! Kagerou hasn't been pretending to look like they're helping like you say. In the posts yoy mentioned, they've been just posting their reads without making an attempt to appear like anything! I am not sure if you are just confused, or you are scum trying to force scumreads... but either way I feel like voting you.

posts 52, 57, and 61 combined to net zero meaningful opinion
post 104 is pretty much zero meaningful opinion
post 128 is pretty much zero meaningful opinion
the sanae "progression" over 104, 128, and 135 is net zero meaningful opinion
post 195 is a vote, which would be a meaningful opinion except there is no visible justification to it up to that point in their iso
etc etc.
things like "they could be town but they could be mafia" and "guess i'll have to wait and see" and voting someone "to see where this goes" are not meaningful reads, mafia can post these things without any effort! give me solid opinions on alignments that are defensible in the moment and i'm much more likely to believe you're town! they don't necessarily need to be things you'd dai on a hill for, as long as they're things you could genuinely justify believing (and do when asked)

[Daiyousei]

That said, this looks like a really weird way to talk about me when you have much wordier qualifiers on the rest of the people you were asked about? It's not like I haven't been majorly present since your last block of reads, I suspect I'm going to be showing up on this week's episode of Hyperposters Least Wanted, starting John Walsh.

you're in a unique position where i was very much not a fan of your predecessor, but was also starting to rethink that stance because i wasn't sure if it was because she was mafia or because her foundational ideas for how to play differed strongly with mine

and then the replacement happened, which means that i still feel how i felt about the slot prior to the replacement but my concerns may no longer apply going forward

so i couldn't just drop you in either the "interested in voting" bin or the "not interested in voting" bin with any sort of confidence, hence the couched wording

[Daiyousei]

and whatever larva is

funny thing is that touhou fans don't actually know this for sure either!

[Daiyousei]

Can someone explain dai to me

not even i can explain me, good luck asking anyone else to do it @_@

While Aya has stuck to character at the expense of game content, which makes her unreadable, she didn't pretend to contribute!

she posted a bunch without providing meaningful game content, i'm not sure how much more "pretend to contribute" one can get!

On the other hand, I also looked at your Kagerou case. And I also disagree there! Kagerou hasn't been pretending to look like they're helping like you say. In the posts yoy mentioned, they've been just posting their reads without making an attempt to appear like anything! I am not sure if you are just confused, or you are scum trying to force scumreads... but either way I feel like voting you.

posts 52, 57, and 61 combined to net zero meaningful opinion
post 104 is pretty much zero meaningful opinion
post 128 is pretty much zero meaningful opinion
the sanae "progression" over 104, 128, and 135 is net zero meaningful opinion
post 195 is a vote, which would be a meaningful opinion except there is no visible justification to it up to that point in their iso
etc etc.
things like "they could be town but they could be mafia" and "guess i'll have to wait and see" and voting someone "to see where this goes" are not meaningful reads, mafia can post these things without any effort! give me solid opinions on alignments that are defensible in the moment and i'm much more likely to believe you're town! they don't necessarily need to be things you'd dai on a hill for, as long as they're things you could genuinely justify believing (and do when asked)

This just in, town as the uniformed majority are more assured in their opinion than the informed minority

town are indeed more assured in their real opinions that they know are real than mafia are in their fake opinions that they know are fake! film at 11! (omg gimmick infringement aya's gonna exterminate us both)

[Daiyousei]

2) what makes a tenshi vote more interesting than a vote for me? maybe this is the self-loathing from generations of fairy hatred kicking in but i see myself as more likely to get exterminated than tenshi at this point in the game, so i don't understand why you'd vote tenshi ahead of me while thinking i'm more likely to be mafia

2) I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you, i feel like the general avoidance around this slot could come from a place of more well inserted scumbuddies uneasy with the idea of drawing the light to their weak like

2) assuming your interest in seeing people's stances on tenshi is honest, what effort did you make to draw those stances out between the tenshi vote and the post i am responding to with this question? (this actually ties pretty neatly into what yuuka and piece have been saying about you lately)

still waiting for an answer to this btw ?_?

(ed. note: nested quotes are cleaned up for ease-of-reading purposes)

[Daiyousei]

i am the last fairy to talk about anything for which the explanation may simply be "haven't had the time" but i do find it highly amusing when people mention they want to iso me when my post count is nearly half of the next-lowest post count

you're all welcome for me making my iso quick and easy to read lol ^_^ clearly fairy posting is the true good posting

[Daiyousei]

(i will drop the rp and silly source material references if it becomes inhibiting for ppl tho)

[Daiyousei]

i am the last fairy to talk about anything for which the explanation may simply be "haven't had the time" but i do find it highly amusing when people mention they want to iso me when my post count is nearly half of the next-lowest post count

you're all welcome for me making my iso quick and easy to read lol ^_^ clearly fairy posting is the true good posting

I think that it takes me 4 times as long (on average) to read your posts than it takes me (on average) to read anyone else's posts , so your iso would be like the 3rd longest to read lol

well that makes sense because we all know fairies can't read or write lol

...wait...

[Daiyousei]

The back and forths with Larva will continue until moral improves. Deal with it, Larva.

multi-part slow burn! multi-part slow burn!

[Daiyousei]

Dai
Another set of eyes on her posts would be useful

good news on this front there's about to be a few more complete with everyone's beloved quote stripes! ;_;

[Daiyousei]

2) what makes a tenshi vote more interesting than a vote for me? maybe this is the self-loathing from generations of fairy hatred kicking in but i see myself as more likely to get exterminated than tenshi at this point in the game, so i don't understand why you'd vote tenshi ahead of me while thinking i'm more likely to be mafia

2) I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you, i feel like the general avoidance around this slot could come from a place of more well inserted scumbuddies uneasy with the idea of drawing the light to their weak like

2) assuming your interest in seeing people's stances on tenshi is honest, what effort did you make to draw those stances out between the tenshi vote and the post i am responding to with this question? (this actually ties pretty neatly into what yuuka and piece have been saying about you lately)

still waiting for an answer to this btw ?_?

(ed. note: nested quotes are cleaned up for ease-of-reading purposes)

sorry missed it

- well, i maybe didn't get as much as i hoped directly at the, but i also feel like i've managed to prevent tenshi from just being able to fly under the radar undetected, and it's just that people don't really care about pushing there

actually hmmm

one thing i find weird is how Marisa didn't include Tenshi in her vote pool

VOTE: Tenshi

yeah ik it's dumb counting the vote as that by itself, but it's true

I've lost the plot completely here too.

Just gonna step away and come back with fresh brain.

before you leave give me gun to head a read on Tenshi

save a townie, join the Tenshi wagon

So, a couple of things with this:

1) Posts 717 and 745 come after the time frame I was asking about. I was specifically asking about the time frame between the vote for Tenshi, in 553, and the claim that the vote for Tenshi was cast because you "were more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than [me]", in 655. Presumably, if you were town and telling the truth about this, you would have made efforts to draw out people's stances between 553 and 665. I looked back and did not see any. Given you didn't quote any, I'm assuming you didn't see any either. Therefore, I have to conclude that the reason you gave for the vote is bunk, and because town has no reason to give bunk reasons for their votes, you are Mafia.

2) Posts 717 and 745 don't really give any reason to consider Tenshi voteworthy. In fact, Sanae's question in 719 is the only real response one can to 717, because you hadn't given any reason for anyone else to consider voting for Tenshi up to that point. Your response in 723 exists, sure, but even setting aside that the reasoning there appears to amount to "vibes", there was no reason town you couldn't have provided that reasoning 150 posts prior. This instead comes across as making something up after the fact, which suggests Mafia.

[Daiyousei]

Please forgive my breaking of character, I'm tired.

VOTE: Daiyousei

The entire line of questioning in 889 is really bad. Why does Daiyousei care about the fact that my scumread of Kaguya can be applied to other people? I'm explicitly fine with voting the other people. Why does Daiyousei care that I said I don't understand how anyone could have a townread on Kaguya? Even if only Kagerou was townreading Kaguya, nobody else was voting her. I didn't understand why nobody was interested in a Kaguya vote and said so. None of this is actually relevant to my alignment in any way and none of this even gives a reason not to vote Kaguya. It just feels like a discredit attempt, or at best an attempt to look like Daiyousei is questioning and investigative (and therefore towny).

Why does Daiyousei care about the fact that my scumread of Kaguya can be applied to other people?

- Because the line I asked about

didn't

apply to Kaguya. Here, I'll ask directly - how does "Anything that looks town indicative can be faked with a bit of practice" apply to someone about whom you just said ""none of her posts are town indicative"? If you can answer that question to my satisfaction then I'll feel better about you using it as justification for the Kaguya vote.

Why does Daiyousei care that I said I don't understand how anyone could have a townread on Kaguya? Even if only Kagerou was townreading Kaguya, nobody else was voting her. I didn't understand why nobody was interested in a Kaguya vote and said so.

- "I don't understand how anyone can have a strong townread on her!" is

not

the same thing as "I don't understand why nobody is interested in a Kaguya vote". Do not try to equate these two things. If you can give me evidence that a non-trivial collection of people that actually had a strong townread of Kaguya at the time, then I'll gladly (and sheepishly) withdraw the point. But don't give me evidence that a non-trivial collection of people weren't interested in a Kaguya vote and try to present that as them having strong townreads on Kaguya. Speaking for myself, there are a handful of people I presently am not interested in voting but also do not have strong townreads on, and I imagine the same is true of most of the rest of the game.

How this is all relevant to your alignment is related to the "town has no reason to give bunk reasons for their votes" thing I covered above. I was skeptical of your vote, and your response to my questioning about it made me more skeptical, ergo I lean toward you being Mafia.

I also mentioned that her cases on both Aya and Kagerou were fake, and I stand by that.

Aya breaking character happened after Daiyousei's bad case on Aya and therefore has no relevance to whether or not the case was good.

I already covered this in 891, but I suppose I can expand on the Aya stuff specifically.

My comments on Aya were made in 392. Aya had made nine posts up to that point. Here's the first so that anyone that wants to follow along can click the ISO link. In those nine posts, there is a partial role claim in 229 and a general Mafia behavior opinion in 255. Beyond that, I do not see any game state opinions in any of those posts - who she thinks is town, who she thinks is Mafia, reasons for those beliefs, etc. Given this, I do not think it is particularly unfair to have categorized her play up to that point as "do-nothing" or "pretending to contribute". If there are game state opinions in those posts that I have missed, please do point them out for me! Otherwise I will stand by what I said in 392 and find it very suspect that you continue to disagree.

Also, as long as I'm talking about this, given you very recently settled on Yuuka being town, what do you think of her vote for and commentary on Aya from that same general time frame compared to my commentary?

[Daiyousei]

wow! this is by far the worst post i've seen all game! @_@ it contributes nothing to the hunting process and is obviously designed just to kick a clearly hurting player while they're down

in an iso vacuum i'm still not thrilled with aya's body of work but this post and sanae co-signing it in 598 makes me want absolutely nothing to do with voting aya for the foreseeable future and everything to do with exterminating the kagerou/sanae mafpair asap

I really hate this, I feel like it is trying to exacerbate the situation when I frankly raised an eyebrow at the same quote as Kagerou?

I already covered this, albeit with a Hisoutensoku joke thrown in that may have made it unclear. I'll quote it below with the joke removed/cleared up.

my expectation of a confused town response would to be to realize that aya very likely isn't saying those things about herself, try to figure out who she might be talking about instead, and ask for clarification, e.g. "just to be sure, is this post about player x?"

That said, this looks like a really weird way to talk about me when you have much wordier qualifiers on the rest of the people you were asked about? It's not like I haven't been majorly present since your last block of reads, I suspect I'm going to be showing up on this week's episode of Hyperposters Least Wanted, starting John Walsh.

you're in a unique position where i was very much not a fan of your predecessor, but was also starting to rethink that stance because i wasn't sure if it was because she was mafia or because her foundational ideas for how to play differed strongly with mine

and then the replacement happened, which means that i still feel how i felt about the slot prior to the replacement but my concerns may no longer apply going forward

so i couldn't just drop you in either the "interested in voting" bin or the "not interested in voting" bin with any sort of confidence, hence the couched wording

I'm not sure I like how cognizant they are of their own trajectory, however I know that I can be a bit susceptible to this too? But referencing their own posts here felt kinda weird

It comes as a direct result of my 891, which was me putting into words the nebulous feelings I had about Koishi's slot, and then Koishi calling it weird in 893. My brain is shit, so I tend to be bad at remembering details of my own thought process if I don't go back and review them, which is what I did in the case of 902.

[Daiyousei]

f in the chat

[Daiyousei]

Anyway, bed beckoned over an hour ago. Apologies if anyone was hoping for real-time discussion surrounding those posts or anything else.

[Daiyousei]

The posts on this page are very dense.

Given other people have commented on this when it comes to my posts, I will gladly take advice on how to condense my posts while still getting all pertinent information across, because I am clearly incapable of doing it when left to my own devices.

[Daiyousei]

Dai there's something about the way that you're writing your posts that just make them very hard for me to process

well everyone knows the only species in gensokyo less intelligent than fairies is shrine maidens lmao get pranked

(this is purely a flavor joke and is not serious etc etc)

[Daiyousei]

would be curious to hear the opinion of anyone who still wants to wagon Kaguya right now

UNVOTE:

setting up the self-wagon case and vote, i see! i guess you really do need to find unique ways to have fun when you're over a thousand years old, huh

[Daiyousei]

koishi promised an edited version of the yuuka post so i was just going to wait until that got posted before judging it tbh

[Daiyousei]

honestly the more i think about it the more i side-eye anyone after 1191 asking about/calling attention to the misplaced likes-in-dislikes-section thing

feels like looking for something to call negative attention to

is this one of those fabled "gut" things i hear people talking about these days

[Daiyousei]

fwiw i don't have any issues with your first three points at a glance

(whether i fully buy into them is another matter that requires time i don't have atm)

[Daiyousei]

it's certainly not a slam-dunk maftell but i do think it's more likely to come from mafia than town purely because of the foundational "town cases are honest, mafia cases are fabricated" premise of the game

i'd be making a bigger deal out of it if i thought doing that was worth it, but it's something i thought so i felt it worth posting

[Daiyousei]

i agree it's possible that it could be an honest mistake! i just think the conditional probabilities lean mafia overall, since mafia could miss 1911 just as easily as town could

but like i said, i'd be making a bigger deal out of it if i thought doing that was worth it

[Daiyousei]

Koichi

omg jojo's reference in the touhou game

[Daiyousei]

big sis sanae looking out for me <3

[Daiyousei]

Things I disliked

-Post 11 is another example of the thing that pings me to no end, which is answering questions during the middle of a direct interaction. It muddys waters and I HATE HATE HATE HATE it.

this is an ichirin post ?_?

[Daiyousei]

this is the part where i look like a mondo moron because i didn't double-check to see if someone else pointed that out earlier

[Daiyousei]

okay good i remembered something correctly for once

[Daiyousei]

if people are bored and looking for something to do they can have a glance over my handful of posts starting here and agree or disagree with them before koishi gets to them so that if your opinions align with her you get to look cool because you had those thoughts first

i even used capital letters and ended sentences with periods and everything! @_@

alternatively piece can use her torch on unsuspecting half-ghosts, that's always good for a laugh

[Daiyousei]

VOTE: Ichirin

I’m tired of waiting for the catchup

assuming ichirin eventually catches up and responds will you take credit for it while pointing at this vote

[Daiyousei]

my my my, how the turntables !_!

[Daiyousei]

king crimson: it just works

[Daiyousei]

to be actually serious though i am glad that at least one (1) person read my posts and understood them and agreed with them and i hope the trend continues

at a glance i find myself generally nodding along with the rest of the post

my gth gut admittedly still leans tenshi town atm but i'd probably have to go back and review why if asked to explain it

[Daiyousei]

my brain just reminded me that my general feeling on tenshi for most of the game has been "me but looser" so that's probably what it is

[Daiyousei]

I’m honestly confused what the case on Kagerou is?

the tl;dr of the main thrust of my case at this point is that kagerou voted for you and then observably lied about the justification in a non-town manner

there's been other things of various significances throughout the game but when i go into details everyone's eyes start glazing over

if you have any further questions you are welcome to ask!

[Daiyousei]

Rereading it for like the sixth time, I don't think that's a slam dunk case on Kagerou, or that it merits the strength of the read you're presently purporting

can you go into detail about why kagerou voting for tenshi and then observably lying about the justification in a non-town manner is acceptable to you?

[Daiyousei]

I'm not sure I see the lying that you see though

this we can work with!

here is kagerou's tenshi vote

here is the post where kagerou says "i'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you" ("you" being me in this case)

i invite you to go through kagerou's iso, starting from the first linked post and ending with the second linked post, and find anything from them that shows any effort to get people's stances on tenshi

if you can't, then there you go, that's the lying! kagerou claimed to be "more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than [me]" but showed precisely no interest in getting those stances in that time frame

[Daiyousei]

I'm not sure I see the lying that you see though

this we can work with!

here is kagerou's tenshi vote

here is the post where kagerou says "i'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you" ("you" being me in this case)

i invite you to go through kagerou's iso, starting from the first linked post and ending with the second linked post, and find anything from them that shows any effort to get people's stances on tenshi

if you can't, then there you go, that's the lying! kagerou claimed to be "more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than [me]" but showed precisely no interest in getting those stances in that time frame

i vibe with this. good work!

can you ISO me, CTRL-F "Reisen" and see if you find anything that feels similar?

no lol

[Daiyousei]

(sure, i can do that at some point this evening)

[Daiyousei]

I'm not sure I see the lying that you see though

this we can work with!

here is kagerou's tenshi vote

here is the post where kagerou says "i'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you" ("you" being me in this case)

i invite you to go through kagerou's iso, starting from the first linked post and ending with the second linked post, and find anything from them that shows any effort to get people's stances on tenshi

if you can't, then there you go, that's the lying! kagerou claimed to be "more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than [me]" but showed precisely no interest in getting those stances in that time frame

I guess I don't consider that lying, and that vote is sort of in character with the sort of reasoning/playstyle they've had all game
I think that 'didn't substantiate the 'seeing people's stances'' bit in thread is totally fair, but:

1. I don't think that's lying
2. people do this sort of thing all the time and I don't think it's inherently scummy
3. it's possible there just wasnt' anything interesting in response so they just moved on and/or didn't note anything in thread

I appreciate you spelling it out very clearly and linking the relevant posts though

kagerou: "i am interested in seeing people's stances on tenshi!"
also kagerou: *makes no effort whatsoever to see people's stances on tenshi*

i realize that in gensokyo you can't be held back by common sense but i am legitimately struggling to see how that is anything other than a lie

[Daiyousei]

to be actually serious though i am glad that at least one (1) person read my posts and understood them and agreed with them and i hope the trend continues

I did actually reread it, I’m pondering it

I’m honestly confused what the case on Kagerou is?

the tl;dr of the main thrust of my case at this point is that kagerou voted for you and then observably lied about the justification in a non-town manner

there's been other things of various significances throughout the game but when i go into details everyone's eyes start glazing over

if you have any further questions you are welcome to ask!

*a handful of posts unrelated to my kagerou case*

here is kagerou's tenshi vote

here is the post where kagerou says "i'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you" ("you" being me in this case)

i invite you to go through kagerou's iso, starting from the first linked post and ending with the second linked post, and find anything from them that shows any effort to get people's stances on tenshi

if you can't, then there you go, that's the lying! kagerou claimed to be "more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than [me]" but showed precisely no interest in getting those stances in that time frame

*more posts unrelated to my kagerou case*

tenshi pls

pls

[Daiyousei]

I'm not sure I see the lying that you see though

this we can work with!

here is kagerou's tenshi vote

here is the post where kagerou says "i'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you" ("you" being me in this case)

i invite you to go through kagerou's iso, starting from the first linked post and ending with the second linked post, and find anything from them that shows any effort to get people's stances on tenshi

if you can't, then there you go, that's the lying! kagerou claimed to be "more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than [me]" but showed precisely no interest in getting those stances in that time frame

I did you one better, and I opened up their iso and searched for "Tenshi" and read every post in order, and was fine with it. I feel like their vote makes sense to me in the context of their reads list that came prior.

The "big crime" you are pointing to seems to be that they did not go out of their way to make the wagon happen, but they were also talking about how they were not trying to lead, so I am not all that surprised that it does not exist.

this tells me you either don't understand the case or are intentionally misrepresenting it @_@

i agree that a tenshi vote in 553 is telegraphed by 385 and 421! however, those posts are not justifications for changing the vote from me to tenshi in 553; if anything, the read list in 385 is justification for keeping it on me, which is why i asked about it in the first place

the specific justification of the tenshi vote is "I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you" in 655; assuming this is a true statement, it was the justification for the vote switch in 553

the problem is that, between 553 and 655, kagerou makes no effort to get people's stances on tenshi! and this is not for lack of opportunity to do so!

- chatting with kaguya in 554! "hey by the way what do you think of tenshi/my vote for tenshi?" nope not there
- chatting with reisen in 562! "hey by the way what do you think of tenshi/my vote for tenshi?" nope not there
- responding to me literally asking about the tenshi vote in 563 "what do you think about tenshi anyway?" nope not there, unless you want to count "I think voting my 3rd strongest scumread is more interesting than voting you, and i invite anyone else who's on the fence with Tenshi to do the same" as a serious/meaningful effort, which, lol
- provoking aya in 596! "hey by the way what do you think of tenshi/my vote for tenshi?" nope not there
- chatting with you in 608! "hey by the way what do you think of tenshi/my vote for tenshi?" nope not there

these questions would not even be questions indicative of someone trying to lead a wagon! they're so easy to ask! and none of them were! and in their absence i'm still expected to think that "I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you" was an honest statement???

[Daiyousei]

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

is this deliberately ignoring the context of 1302, or ?_?

[Daiyousei]

and now, a fairy prank shocker unrelated to kagerou: i agree with big sis sanae on something

(and also apparently having a strange Yuuka case)

Something about the way you worded this feels like... off? Can you elaborate, because this sounds like you don't actually care about it, but about how OTHERS perceived it? Do you not have an opinion of your own?

I've literally said I haven't looked at those posts yet, I've only noticed the discussion around the Yuuka one.

Okay, so that was a realistic position for you two hours ago, but why are you not making a point of going back to read? You've made posts since so you HAVE been here?

I hate this post on many levels

specifically, this

i do not like this koishi post one bit, 1392 was the immediately obvious response, this post cannot possibly have been written with any intent other than to antagonize ichirin while hir attention was already split

i double do not like that sanae called negative attention to it a second time and koishi ignored her calling attention to it both times

i would be willing to vote koishi on this alone tbh

[Daiyousei]

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

is this deliberately ignoring the context of 1302, or ?_?

My post is pointing out that in response to 1302, they said "I don't think that my reads are forced because Dai's case is so good vs "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads"

1302 calling them forced is irrelevant.

if that is your reading, then i would imagine ichirin thought "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads" obvious to the point of not being worth saying and decided to have a little fun with hir post, as this would fit the sense of humor sie has shown previously in this game

obviously i can't say this for sure because i am not a mind reader, but that was my take on that exchange, and 1483 makes me more confident that my take is accurate

[Daiyousei]

Oh sorry, that's fair, but I was more wondering if you had any similar thought processes about me

Pedit maybe? It feels more right to me this way around. Either way it's weird and off, and I don't like that Koishi is blaming Ichrin for not having gone back to read, it's weirdly accusatory in an icky way

If it's icky to call out a player calling me their second largest scum read for a case/scenario they have been proven to not even have read, then I will wear that badge with pride.

I absolutely did not ignore it.

@_@ goddamnit i thought the context for that pedit was that it was part of the dialogue that started with sanae asking you about her lack of vote on you and completely missed that it was actually in response to tenshi inquiring about the matter x_x

i still don't like the post on its own for the reason i've already stated but i will sheepishly withdraw the point about you ignoring it when you demonstrably did not

sanae pls label who you're talking to when talking to multiple people in one post, fairies like me do not need help looking moronic ;_;

[Daiyousei]

whoops we're in gensokyo *godsdamnit

[Daiyousei]

I'm not sure I see the lying that you see though

this we can work with!

here is kagerou's tenshi vote

here is the post where kagerou says "i'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you" ("you" being me in this case)

i invite you to go through kagerou's iso, starting from the first linked post and ending with the second linked post, and find anything from them that shows any effort to get people's stances on tenshi

if you can't, then there you go, that's the lying! kagerou claimed to be "more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than [me]" but showed precisely no interest in getting those stances in that time frame

i vibe with this. good work!

can you ISO me, CTRL-F "Reisen" and see if you find anything that feels similar?

no lol

whoops this ended up changing from a mean joke to the actual truth v_v sorry!!!

i did get through your iso enough to spot 1009 and possibly also 1078 in the context of this question! this post is a commitment to look deeper into what you're saying in those posts once i am able, which is sadly no longer right now

(i would say i'm putting a pin in them but that seems poor form to say to a butterfly fairy lol)

[Daiyousei]

hell sign "flash and stripe"

also putting a torch in this to make sure i respond when i am able

[Daiyousei]

gods it pains my heart to deny my kouhais the attention they deserve

alas

[Daiyousei]

I expected my "hey give a reads list" reply to have SOME impact in the thread after people kept bugging me for it but then it just kinda... didn't? Even from the requestor.

So that's weighing on me as something that probably means people don't know what to make of it? I guess?

i do find it extremely concerning that you were able to drag your heels long enough on producing mafreads to have mafreads of "the lowest hanging fruit in the game" and "the current vote leader at a time when social momentum is swinging toward the extermination of that player instead of hir closest opponent" in this game state moment

i don't have the time to investigate whether or not there was any prior indication those would be your mafreads, but that's my wing-jerk reaction from poking my head in while occupied with other things

[Daiyousei]

@Dai, in response to 1496

i agree that a tenshi vote in 553 is telegraphed by 385 and 421! however, those posts are not justifications for changing the vote from me to tenshi in 553; if anything, the read list in 385 is justification for keeping it on me, which is why i asked about it in the first place

One thing, I disagree with this whole basis that started off your questioning. I think it is pretty clear why Kagerou stopped voting you and started voting Tenshi.

Spoiler: Kagerou quotes

Tenshi Hinanawi - ok so maybe this is more a null read but like i kinda completely forgot who this was so not the greatest look i think

actually hmmm

one thing i find weird is how Marisa didn't include Tenshi in her vote pool

VOTE: Tenshi

I think voting my 3rd strongest scumread is more interesting than voting you, and i invite anyone else who's on the fence with Tenshi to do the same

I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you, i feel like the general avoidance around this slot could come from a place of more well inserted scumbuddies uneasy with the idea of drawing the light to their weak like

save a townie, join the Tenshi wagon

I mean, Tenshi is a slot that's been relatively spared of scrutiny since the start right?

Granted, you could make that case for a lot of people, i just think it points to Tenshi cause they both never received that much pressure and don't put themselves that fowards

before you leave give me gun to head a read on Tenshi

Like, it is all pretty consistent when I look at them.

-They voiced the fact that they had forgotten about tenshi, and tenshi was going under the radar, and that that was a bad thing.
-They then saw someone else (marisa) appear to overlook (accidentally or willfully) tenshi's existence, so they vote tenshi to try and draw more attention to tenshi.
-they invite other people to vote tenshi to force more people to talk about tenshi.
-they repeat that they are more interested in what people have to say about tenshi
-they call for tenshi votes
-reiterate that they dont like that tenshi is flying under the radar
-ask someone point blank for a tenshi read

There is a pretty consistent PoV on Tenshi through out this, that paints a pretty clear picture on why they moved their vote from you -> tenshi.

You later build onto this by saying that they were not digging into other people enough for their answer of "I wanted more people to talk about Tenshi" to be real, but that is not catching them in a lie.

Like sure, this could be scum who was just faking interest in Tenshi reads, but it could also just as easily be town who was interested in tenshi reads, but then the thread went other directions and their focus went with it, so they ended up talking about other topics after moving their votes.

I also feel like the original point that we disagreed on, where you felt like moving their vote in the first place was not justified, is a PoV difference that colors out view on this.

But either way, I simply don't see it as a smoking gun scum case the way you do.

This is, again, misunderstanding (or misinterpreting) my case.

I saw 385. I didn't have an immediate problem with a Tenshi suspicion given the stated reasoning of "i kinda completely forgot who this was". In fact, my question in 560 linked to 385 and indirectly acknowledged Tenshi's relative position on it. My question in 385, updated to proper syntax for clarity, was

not

"Why are you voting Tenshi?". It was "Why are you voting Tenshi

instead of me, who is lower on your list

?" Another (even wordier) way to word this question would be "I see and acknowledge your Tenshi suspicion. However, you previously indicated you did not feel as strongly about Tenshi being Mafia as you did about me being Mafia. What changed?"

So we get to Kagerou's first reponse in 563. Of note:

If Kagerou's response in 563 is something like "I thought about it some more and decided that me forgetting about Tenshi and no one talking about Tenshi makes me more suspicious of her than you", or "I don't like how Marisa didn't include Tenshi in her vote pool, and that was enough to put Tenshi lower than you", then we would not be having this conversation.

(We might be having a different one, because I would have wondered why Marisa excluding Tenshi from Marisa's vote pool would have made Kagerou want to vote Tenshi more when Marisa was her top townread in 385, but that's a slightly different matter.) But this is not the answer we get; instead, we get that "I think voting my 3rd strongest scumread is more interesting than voting you, and i invite anyone else who's on the fence with Tenshi to do the same"[1], which is a useless response on its own but at least invites the obvious follow-up question posed in 642, asking why a Tenshi vote is more interesting than a vote for me. It is 655 where we get "I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you, i feel like the general avoidance around this slot could come from a place of more well inserted scumbuddies uneasy with the idea of drawing the light to their weak link (sic)". This is a useful, workable answer, because if it is true, then it is observable. (It doesn't even matter than the implication of the answer is "Nothing changed, I still see you as more likely to be Mafia.")

To be as clear as I think I can be, at this juncture, the answer to the question "Why are you voting Tenshi instead of me, who is lower on your list?" is "I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you". This is the response I have to work with in terms of investigating the vote change. So I go back to the vote in 553 and recheck all of Kagerou's posts from there up to 655, because, assuming the statement in 655 about the vote in 553 is true, there would be evidence of it in the posts between.

There is no evidence the statement in 655 about the vote in 553 is true in the posts between. Not one, despite several opportunities to do so. This is why the statement in 655 is a lie.

I don't care about posts after 655. Anything that comes after 655, like 745, is simply "Now that I've said the thing, I need to act accordingly".

[1]"i invite anyone else who's on the fence with Tenshi to do the same" is not a valid attempt to draw out stances. It is equivalent to "source: dude trust me" in the grand scheme of trying to drive engagement for a vote in a Mafia game.

[Daiyousei]

Well you see according to Daiyousei town can only do one thing at the time and i should've ran my head into the wall multiple times to try to squeeze pressure out of it or something

Obviously this was not a case of "you must ask about it at every opportunity". Asking about it once or twice would have been sufficient. This commentary of yours is clearly intentionally disingenuous.

[Daiyousei]

@Dai what do you think of Ichirin? You mentioned feeling neutral early on but I cannot seem to find any other real mention lately, but you've also been trying to get people to read your walls repeatedly so I get that.

I would need the time to go back and reread more closely to elaborate more, but I don't remember much of anything sie's posted all game where I read it and went "well that's suspect". I do remember thinking the initial flashwagon on hir was lazy and the kind of thing one sees all the time in early Day 1s where a townie acts unusual for whatever reason and people are quick to jump all over it. If I were to psychoanalyze myself, I imagine I probably subconsciously wrote hir off as Town For Now because of that flashwagon and set hir aside to be reconsidered later once flips started happening.

[Daiyousei]

i know i just voted Koishi but i do not understand why everyone and their mother took issue with their characterization of Yuuka as "middle-of-the-road"?

what is so horrible about them drawing that conclusion?

I think that peoples issue was that if you read their point by point commentary, it seems like they say a lot more things that point to town, and then people are taking "middle of the pack at best" as a scum read, and people are struggling to reconcile the final conclusion to the supporting evidence.

But I dont think koishi was actually meaning a scum read when they wrote it, so :shrug:

For the record, I knew it was a null read, but the sides of the scale feel weird.

This.

There is a very clear and correct answer here that giving in detail is actively detrimental, but is exactly why I am not worried about this wagon going anywhere in the slightest. And even typing this out is dangerous but fuck it, we ball.

Without going into more detail than you have to, can you clarify who "this wagon" referenced in this post is for?

[Daiyousei]

Your pov has a foundation on the idea that a townie will always vote their largest scum read without great reason to do otherwise.

(It doesn't even matter than the implication of the answer is "Nothing changed, I still see you as more likely to be Mafia.")

[Daiyousei]

To be less glib, I accept that there are possible reasons why one would not be voting their greatest Mafia read. The reason Kagerou gave is one of them! It just so happens that, in this case, the reason Kagerou gave is observably bunk. If Kagerou had given the same exact reason,

but had also put in effort prior to stating it that demonstrated it was true

, we would not be having this conversation.

[Daiyousei]

Then I suppose I should directly question this:

it could also just as easily be town who was interested in tenshi reads, but then the thread went other directions and their focus went with it, so they ended up talking about other topics after moving their votes

Given how

incredibly

easy it would be for a townie that genuinely wanted to see Tenshi reactions to try to obtain them (which was the point of the bulleted list in 1496, which I imagine you already figured but I'm explicitly stating it anyway), I cannot fathom the idea that the situation was one where "it could just as easily have been town who didn't". Like, this is p-value-

way

-less-than-0.05 stuff as far as I'm concerned.

[Daiyousei]

Ichirin's claim itself should be treated as null but i am still staunchly against eliminating that slot

Kagerou's tunnel is incredibly disingenuous here and i'm confused as to how others are not seeing it

their scum read on Ichirin only seems to materialize after Ichirin starts coming for them. they even initially acknowledge that Ichirin's reaction to the pressure early on in the day feels genuine and "extremely towny". it is natural for this to change and evolve, and they do say at one point that they need to reevaluate based on Clownpiece's points, but there's no real mention of Ichirin again for several hundred posts until they start scum reading hir for hir catchup post (which also felt OMGUSy, but this is a minor point)

the Kagerou - Ichirin 1v1 ensues where imo Kagerou does everything in their power to paint Ichirin as scummy and is unwavering throughout the entire interaction. this alarms me when comparing Kagerou's treatment of Clownpiece, the only other player Kagerou has notably scum read during this phase. Kagerou outright refused to explain the Clownpiece early on and only provided some sort of reasoning after i coaxed it out of them. That reasoning did not make sense to me and led me to believe that they only held that read to have a contrary opinion, but they couldn't back it up. Later on, Kagerou does end up casing Clownpiece, but that didn't really go anywhere and Kagerou did practically nothing to get people to see what they were seeing in Clown, who had been a universal townread up to that point.

with Ichirin, Kagerou has been relentless and the approach does not look like one where Kagerou is genuinely trying to determine Ichirin's alignment, but looks as if they came in with the desired conclusion of scum reading Ichirin, and has stuck with that ever since. where was this energy with their Clown scum read for the first fifty pages of the day? why is Kagerou practically silent and cagey about their scum read on Clown but is more than happy to pile onto Ichirin who has been receiving a lot of pressure throughout the day? it is feels like a targeted attack on the most viable mis-elimination for today and people writing Kagerou off as town for engaging in the 1v1 or something is baffling to me

i urge everyone to go ISO Kagerou to see what i am seeing. Kagerou should really be the elimination today imo

This lines up with something I felt in my soul overnight but wasn't able to articulate this morning (especially not in time before I hit the point where I couldn't do more than spot-read). As thanks, I'd like to quote a few posts that are extra amusing in the context of this observation.

I kinda wanna vote Ichirin for this catchup but that would mean admitting clownpiece is probably town

actually this is all theater and they're trying to land clown as the deepwolf

all is well (/sarcasm)

for real idk, i'm kinda warming up to clown, will need to see a flip before i can act confident on this read but i kinda was pretending like she was town for convinience anyways

Well, which ones do you think are bad faith?

You, Kagerou and Clownpiece for sure, Koishi could be trying to coast along without having to give in-depth analysis on me as an easy mislim, as I theorized. Otherwise I think Sanae and Tenshi just aren't really bothering to put in the effort to read me.

That's still like 4 townies at least who are legitimately thinking you're scum, i'm especially curious how clown is "in bad faith" where like, her case on you is quite voluminous

[Daiyousei]

Spoiler: Page 60

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

yeah

Spoiler: Page 61

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

is this deliberately ignoring the context of 1302, or ?_?

My post is pointing out that in response to 1302, they said "I don't think that my reads are forced because Dai's case is so good vs "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads"

1302 calling them forced is irrelevant.

if that is your reading, then i would imagine ichirin thought "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads" obvious to the point of not being worth saying and decided to have a little fun with hir post, as this would fit the sense of humor sie has shown previously in this game

obviously i can't say this for sure because i am not a mind reader, but that was my take on that exchange, and 1483 makes me more confident that my take is accurate

It's less about that and more about how it was worded, like "They're not forced, you can see it with x/y/z" vs "They're not forced because x/y/z" where the first implies they're not forced because it's sie's read and it's also visible from an outside perspective whereas the second implies that the foundation of the read not being forced is those externally visible features instead of just from it being sie's read

I have spent too long looking for fan art of clownpiece and Kaguya together to call you my new best friend with, but apparently that simply does not exist. So this will have to do:

wow even pixiv doesn't have anything (or at least not in the corners of pixiv i'm willing to look)

given the plot of lolk i would've thought at least one (1) touhou fanartist would have drawn them together by now

[Daiyousei]

I have thoughts about eternity and kagerou's conversation, but it seems prudent to let kagerou answer questions before voicing them.

i’m interested in this

no that's castlevania sotn this is a touhou game

[Daiyousei]

-> I'll admit that me calling hir earlier reaction extremely towny was poor choice of words, and it was more like... regular towniness

what

[Daiyousei]

like

what.

[Daiyousei]

how is that discrepancy chalked up to "a bad choice of words"

like if you genuinely thought at the time "this is pretty regular townie behavior" why would you write out "Ichirin's reaction to the wagon feels extremely towny" and look at that and go "yep people will read this and understand what i mean"

that's not "a bad choice of words"

"a bad choice of words" is using words that can be read multiple different ways, some of which are intended and some of which are not

there is no reasonable way to type "extremely towny" and expect people to conclude that you mean "pretty regular townie"

[Daiyousei]

feels far more likely that you weren't expecting the current situation at the time of those original ichirin reads and are just making stuff up now that the heat is on in an attempt to turn it off

[Daiyousei]

yuuka i have to admit i'm struggling to understand what you're looking for from today given the current game state

of all the outcomes for today you think are plausible, which one is your ideal outcome

[Daiyousei]

(i'm pretty sure i already know the answer, i just want it on record as a response to that particular question)

[Daiyousei]

yuuka i have to admit i'm struggling to understand what you're looking for from today given the current game state

of all the outcomes for today you think are plausible, which one is your ideal outcome

I want scum to flip.
Unironically.
I just don’t know who the scum are.

well yes i also want that and i imagine that a lot of other players want that

but in terms of

actual individual players

, of all of the trains you think could plausibly reach the station today, which player's train is your ideal train at this moment

[Daiyousei]

Dai, if kagerou isn’t scum, who is?

kneejerk reaction is koishi based on the things i've commented on over the course of the last couple of days

a fuller answer with more names would require a deeper dive into a radically different mindset than the one i currently have

[Daiyousei]

Add in a splash of OMGUS because the push is directed at Kagerou, and I buy the escalation.

just so i clearly understand where you're coming from, who is omgusing who in this situation?

[Daiyousei]

i am glad i asked because my initial reading of that part of the post was "ichirin omgus'ed kagerou and that supports the idea of town kagerou/mafia ichirin" and i couldn't believe piece would be posting that with a straight face given everything

i don't have any deeper analysis of the conversation at the moment, that was just something that stuck out as needing clarification in my glance-reading

[Daiyousei]

i am glad i asked because my initial reading of that part of the post was "ichirin omgus'ed kagerou

I don't think that there is any case for the omgus in that direction lol

sis i legit thought you were being all "ichirin's vote was in retaliation for 678" and was like

what

rofl

[Daiyousei]

You're welcome

stupendous

[Daiyousei]

i am present but only kinda, today was exhausting and i've been putting off night-night time for the last several days so tonight is likely an early night where at best you give live reactions to current events from me

sorry to larva for shoving the reisen research to the back burner yet again ;_;

[Daiyousei]

*you get live reactions

[Daiyousei]

i believe ichirin's roleclaim at least as much as i believe anything anyone says publicly about their role

i also don't think the mechanics are alignment indicative and that focusing on trying to puzzle that out is going to distract the thread (yes i am aware posting has slowed a bit at the moment)

obviously i'm not going to get into details about myself but i look at ichirin's claim and i look at my role and i look back at ichirin's claim and have no issue seeing it attached to either alignment

[Daiyousei]

Mod Notes

• If you spot an error on the vote count, please let me know!
  
• Marisa Kirisame is in V/LA until 16th.

[Daiyousei]

VOTE: Ichirin

Good night.

yuuka i have to admit i'm struggling to understand what you're looking for from today given the current game state

of all the outcomes for today you think are plausible, which one is your ideal outcome

I want scum to flip.
Unironically.
I just don’t know who the scum are.

well yes i also want that and i imagine that a lot of other players want that

but in terms of

actual individual players

, of all of the trains you think could plausibly reach the station today, which player's train is your ideal train at this moment

Probably kouji.

Koichi I know you’re doing wall posts on people but can you give me a short sweet read list? It would be easier to follow along and pick out what needs some elaboration.

I really wanted to do this AFTER the walls to make it the longest reads list ever with spoiler= collapses for everything, but sure. This is off the cuff, with the warning that I have NOT done the "brute force ISO" (Nice term whoever said that earlier, yoinked) of several of these slots so my opinion here may be mostly feels/vibes based on a few folks.


{Larva, Clown, Kaguya}
{Sanae}
~End Die for Tier~
{Tenshi}
{Kagerou*, Yuuka, Dai*}
{Marisa*, Reisen*,}
~End Giant Middle of the Pack~
{Aya*}
{Ichirin}

The * denotes a read that I have not fully solidified, but you asked and it's the time in the day where it's cards on table land.

I still intend to do those tonight, and I don't want an elimination to occur before I have the chance, as my time in game will be limited, I suspect.

?????

[Daiyousei]

i am willing to vote koishi in a vacuum, much as it chafes me to not get my top desired extermination

in terms of koishi vs. ichirin my knee-jerk is that i would rather exterminate koishi, but i will at least read and digest 1774 (which i should have time to do a fair amount of time before deadline) before truly committing to that

[Daiyousei]

oh god my post count hit triple digits

i can physically feel my inner eye opening

[Daiyousei]

godsdamnit!

[Daiyousei]

@mod please create a second version of this masterpiece and recolor kaguya as yukari tia

[Daiyousei]

please don't pick me either, as much as i was not previously in the pool of likely candidates

[Daiyousei]

koishi should not claim her target today

i may be bad at mechsolves but i can at least confidently state this to the point where i'm surprised people are mulling the idea

[Daiyousei]

like i get the appeal of some form of accountability but there's already one redirector claim on the table

[Daiyousei]

best roleplay the entire game tbh

[Daiyousei]

don't really have a lot meaningful to say at the moment due to distractions but if people become interested in revisiting me and my kagerou interactions in the context of the ichirin wagon they're welcome to start at or somewhere before 349 and continue at least as far as the vote count in 900

[Daiyousei]

I think the main thing to look is at how Dai and Larva have interacted with Kagerou because Koishi just came up because "hey, useful town role, maybe...?" but I'm realizing Kagerou's always been the more endangered slot, and like I hypothesized: Master Spark. Very spooky for scum who know a thing or two about Touhou.

Explain this like I’m 5 because I have no touhou experience outside of saltybets.

master spark is the staple attack of the franchise's second protagonist

in a series where the overwhelming majority of characters are known for putting as much visual beauty and elegance into their attack patterns as possible, master spark is just straight-up a giant-ass laser

[Daiyousei]

which is to say it is not unreasonable to assume that "kagerou", who is apparently just marisa in a fursuit, has a spellcard that's a vig shot, possibly with some sort of extra modifiers that make it better

[Daiyousei]

(at least this is my assumption of what ichirin is trying to get at here)

[Daiyousei]

which is to say it is not unreasonable to assume that "kagerou", who is apparently just marisa in a fursuit, has a spellcard that's a vig shot, possibly with some sort of extra modifiers that make it better

That is useful to know. But I would counter…since I’m not a mech person. In a game where alignment is generated after roles are generated, does a vigi make sense? Since like, you could be giving scum double kp?

there was at least one past touhou upick where one of the mafia's roles gave them access to a vig shot

but it could also be, like, a janitor shot or something, just as another possibility

i am also not a mech person, so any speculation coming from me is purely that

[Daiyousei]

anyway

my stance on who is most likely to be mafia has not changed as a result of anything that has happened in the last 48 hours, so

i will read and digest 1774 tomorrow, as much as there is no longer anyone to respond to regarding it if i have questions or concerns

i will also finally do larva's request reisen research, assuming there are no new major shake-ups that demand all of everyone's time and focus

[Daiyousei]

good morning

time to put off doing chores in favor of mulling over a disappeared person's ichirin case and following up on my butterfly kouhai's request to look into reisen five days late

[Daiyousei]

\*extremely kyouko sakura voice\* my thread now


have read over 1774, most of it appears to be "this feels x" which i can't really dispute that piece thought it felt x but looking back through ichirin's iso i don't particularly agree that those things felt x


i think a case of this style is just generally not for selling to me because i read early game ichirin and vibe with hir general sense of humor and relative lack of urgency regarding accruing a whole bunch of early day 1 votes - in particular, "the main accusation was that there was no sign of solving from hir, and it felt like sie was avoiding questioning hir voters - like hir goal was just to change our minds" from 619 doesn't bother me at all because i watched myself accrue three votes early day 1 while distractedbrowsing and just kinda shrugged my shoulders at them and got back to what i was doing without even responding


i read 1345 and 1358 and was personally fine with hir interpretation of my kagerou case, so i can't agree with accusations of misinterpretation

ultimately i believe the piece that wrote 1774 believed it but i generally don't agree with it

pedit: oh, not my thread anymore i guess

[Daiyousei]

wow i need to get off discord

[Daiyousei]

Okay, *claps hands*

We need to go.

hi! as long as we're both here, i glanced over your iso and didn't see anything that was obviously a reply to 1936, which is understandable since i didn't actually say anything in that post

so i'll ask directly: given 1538, where ichirin is dead last in koishi's read list, and 1747, where you identified koishi (assumed from "kouji") as your preference amongst the plausible eliminations, why did you vote ichirin in 1926

[Daiyousei]

(please do not let that question get in the way of you sharing whatever you have declared intent to share about koishi, of course)

[Daiyousei]

okay, i am of a few minds after looking into larva's request

i agree with larva's assessment that "I’d feel better sorting in you [larva]/ichirin first and figuring it out from there" from 985 doesn't really follow from reisen's behavior up to that point in the game - in fact, glancing through reisen's iso, i'd say the first instance of her trying to sort larva didn't come until 2134

so, uh, unless reisen can link to examples of attempts at sorting larva, this is highly displeasing

on the other hand, i am not terribly interested in sudden shifts onto relative lurkers at the end of day 1, i have seen this happen so many times over the years and the overwhelming majority of the time it lands on town

on the other other hand, it's no one's fault but my own that i got to looking into this so late, and also we do have at least a couple of real days left before game day 1 ends

so ultimately i'd be content voting this slot, barring a situation where it threatens to go from 0 to elimination in the span of, like, the last 12 real hours of the game day

[Daiyousei]

(please do not let that question get in the way of you sharing whatever you have declared intent to share about koishi, of course)

I’m not sure why it would have a chilling effect here?

less chilling, more distracting

simply a general concern that any conversation that starts as a result of my question might end up with you not getting around to this koishi thing until way later

[Daiyousei]

Like, even looking at the last few pages, koishi is literally not voting anyone, and yuuka is just waffling and not actually trying to convince people to vote koishi.

Koishi, take a stance.

Yuuka, make a koishi case and call for votes, or compromise on to one of the other wagons.

Tenshi, youre doing great sweety.

My read was chilling out on them. It’s been pretty up and down

okay but you do realize how convenient it is that it was on the mafia side before your vote and after your vote but was suddenly away enough from the mafia side at the time of your vote that you agreed with their preferred elimination at a point where kagerou and koishi each sat at three votes

i will grant that my view of this might be skewed because i extremely want a kagerou elimination and have not come very close to being sold on an ichirin elimination, but piece injected urgency into the situation and your response was not to try to case the player you said forty minutes prior was your preferred elimination, but to vote for that player's stated lowest read

[Daiyousei]

piece-ing out for a bit more, will be back later

[Daiyousei]

You want a claimed vig to bite it?

i don't care about this claim

just like i don't care about Ichirin's claim

but i am down for Clownpiece slot being protected by Koishi's role, although this will not dissuade from continuing to push for Koishi's elimination

You do realize we lose a lot of utility if you're wrong on Koishi

but for real, i don't really care? the priority is to eliminate scum. if i feel Koishi is scum, any potential utility we lose in the event that the are town will likely not prevent me from pushing for her elimination

[Daiyousei]

Er. I probably should have my baggage around koishi aired. Usually when I have like a narrative or an opinion I’m not as reluctant to share because of the quality of it, but it does deserve the light of day. Even if it doesn’t seem up to snuff, probably better it gets refined through criticism than brought up more naturally where it has the side effect of pushing for a wagon.

(please do not let that question get in the way of you sharing whatever you have declared intent to share about koishi, of course)

(please do not let that question get in the way of you sharing whatever you have declared intent to share about koishi, of course)

I’m not sure why it would have a chilling effect here?

(please do not let that question get in the way of you sharing whatever you have declared intent to share about koishi, of course)

I’m not sure why it would have a chilling effect here?

less chilling, more distracting

simply a general concern that any conversation that starts as a result of my question might end up with you not getting around to this koishi thing until way later

*nothing about koishi*

*nothing about koishi*

*nothing about koishi*

I'm still feeling like shit but going out of my way to hold off since both Sanae and Yuuka have stated an intent to want more time to write up their me-case?

Genuinely and I mean this kindly of myself.
No need to wait on me. I’m usually wrong day 1 anyway.

well gee golly willikers who could have see this coming

[Daiyousei]

does that count as another jojo's reference, with the whole "your next line is" thing

[Daiyousei]

if i can't have kagerou today i'll take yuuka as a consolation prize

[Daiyousei]

if i can't have kagerou today i'll take yuuka as a consolation prize

Nah.

This is almost certainly town, just extremely misled and emotionally incapable of empathy or understanding town, IMO.

i don't see what either of those things has to do with a total inability to concretely comment on you at multiple invitations to do so and with a statement of intent to do so, despite you spending a fair amount of time as yuuka's preferred elimination

[Daiyousei]

VOTE: Reisen Undongein Inaba

would like to know what changed about ichirin between 2287 and 2329 (also 2264 is still a thing)

acknowledging the existence of 2317 but do not have the time to read it over properly at the moment

[Daiyousei]

VOTE: Reisen Undongein Inaba

would like to know what changed about ichirin between 2287 and 2329 (also 2264 is still a thing)

acknowledging the existence of 2317 but do not have the time to read it over properly at the moment

This is a bad post! Daiyousei, you are literally ignoring the context that's provided in the posts themselves. It almost feels like some witch has cast *confusion* on you... But I'm the only witch here and I didn't do it!

the point is that none of what piece posted in 2928 was new; reisen had all of that information available to her in 2287 and chose to unvote with that information in hand

[Daiyousei]

VOTE: Reisen Undongein Inaba

would like to know what changed about ichirin between 2287 and 2329 (also 2264 is still a thing)

acknowledging the existence of 2317 but do not have the time to read it over properly at the moment

This is a bad post! Daiyousei, you are literally ignoring the context that's provided in the posts themselves. It almost feels like some witch has cast *confusion* on you... But I'm the only witch here and I didn't do it!

the point is that none of what piece posted in 2928 was new; reisen had all of that information available to her in 2287 and chose to unvote with that information in hand

Do you not believe town can be convinced of things when these things are explained to them in a succinct manner?

it's certainly possible, but determining how likely it is is the point of asking

[Daiyousei]

VOTE: Kagerou Imaizumi since there's a small flicker of hope that this might not actually be dead

[Daiyousei]

don't get me wrong i have scumreads, i'm just not getting them killed

won't know until you try!

[Daiyousei]

to put my general sentiment in more elaborate words

it feels to me that there is maybe, like, one person actively excited for vote for ichirin, and the rest are shoulder shrugs that sie's a good enough choice and it's easiest to just turn our brains off and let the clock wind down while waiting for the last couple of passengers to shuffle on board the train

and this more than anything else does not instill confidence that ichirin is mafia

it's possible that i am reading the room wrong here but it's what i see

[Daiyousei]

don't get me wrong i have scumreads, i'm just not getting them killed

won't know until you try!

We have 1 day until deadline

we had 2.5 days until deadline at the time of your ichirin vote where you could have tried someone else!

[Daiyousei]

i am also willing to vote koishi (even with everything i said to yuuka the other day) if enough people are actively interested in it

[Daiyousei]

And we can assume a reloader DOES exist, given that whole "MY card says it cannot be reloaded as an extra special note" coming from the wolf lass that's holding a gun.

the main entry games routinely have major enemies (that are not the stage bosses) that drop a bomb item for the player when they are defeated (a bomb on the player side is (generally) a one-shot extremely powerful spell card attack where the player is invincible until the attack is over)

it would not surprise me if such a mechanic existed in this game in some capacity for refreshing expended spell cards

[Daiyousei]

don't really have much else to say at the moment

the day's conclusion appears foregone and the way in which i specialize in contributing to mafia games is completely neutralized by a foregone extermination conclusion, so i will probably not post meaningfully for the rest of the day unless something drastic occurs or if someone asks me something that can be answered without iso research

meaningful posts can come day 2 once there are flips to be analyzed (assuming i make it that far)

[Daiyousei]

VOTE: Sanae

sure, this is interesting, let's see where it goes

2371 in particular if something i can definitely see as way more likely to come from mafia than town

[Daiyousei]

i think Sanae is at E-1 right now fyi

went back and double-checked and yes

[Daiyousei]

side note:

Tenshi Hinanawi - Town
Aya Shameimaru - Town
Yuuka Kazami - Town
Kaguya Houraisan - Maybe Town
Kagerou Imaizumi -
Koishi Komeiji - Town
Eternity Larva - Town
Ichirin Kumoi - Town
Daiyousei - Iffy Town
Marisa Kirisame - Town
Clownpiece, replaced once as of this post - ME!!!!!!!!
Reisen Udongein Inaba - ig they're town
Sanae Kochiya - Wolf

piece of all slots having kagerou as a blank on a list with more town reads than is possible has absolutely tilted me off the face of the planet

[Daiyousei]

this is touhou, we only do bullet trains

[Daiyousei]

real talk though, we've already hit the point where the only logical possibilities are "slow march toward ichirin" and "flash wagon on someone else"

i get that both can feel icky in their own ways (and have expressed my own icky feelings with both in this very game) but at this point it's one or the other

[Daiyousei]

VOTE: Sanae

sure, this is interesting, let's see where it goes

2371 in particular if something i can definitely see as way more likely to come from mafia than town

Of all the Sanae posts to hate, this is a weird one given there's been several people making that exact point, including me, and not al of us as scum by sheer numbers.

the post is very clearly written in a way to ascribe shame to aya and marisa for their respective absences, as though these absences were active decisions on their parts

i suppose the aya half of this can be debated but marisa being v/la was public knowledge for a while

the post is also specifically written in a way where this can be pointed out, and then sanae can respond with something like "no, i meant that i hate the lack of additional information, not that i hate the slots for not contributing" with the expectation that we will believe this because we're idiots

other people have expressed a desire for more content from those two slots but none of them (that i can recall) have tried to ascribe shame to those slots for the lack of content, let alone in such an underhanded way

[Daiyousei]

i am vaguely present to do things if they are in urgent need of doing

i realize there are things on the table i could respond to but they are things that would not contribute to the immediate situation

[Daiyousei]

still vaguely present

will vote ichirin over no elim if needed

[Daiyousei]

Welcome to Hell, Ichirin.

no that's hecatia and chiyari

[Daiyousei]

yeah but she doesn't have the shirt

[Daiyousei]

(i am not contributing to this weighted probability role analysis exercise because it is my onion that any plan that counts on night actions playing out in an expected manner is doomed before it begins)

[Daiyousei]

wait the shirt is welcome hell, not welcome to hell

my touhou credibility is in shambles

[Daiyousei]

Truncated Ichirin train analysis hindered by fairy responsibilities and accompanying exhaustion:

- Yuuka: 2317 is completely useless to the point where the end of it admits as much. I had exactly as much idea as to how strongly Yuuka felt Koishi was Mafia at the end as I did at the beginning, which is to say none at all. The only good thing to come of reading this was that the glaze I scraped off my eyes was very tasty. (Is this what it was like for other people reading my posts? I'm so sorry, everyone.) The general play around Ichirin once sie became a legitimate candidate for elimination feels way more informational than mafhunt-y. For someone as enthused to eliminate Ichirin as Yuuka was I don't actually know why they thought Ichirin was Mafia, even after going back through their iso. Would vote with enthusiasm.
- Reisen: Generally blend-into-the-background Day 1. Wasn't around for the last 24 real hours of the game day and so entirely avoided participating in the chaos, which makes it slightly harder to read this slot in relation to the overall train. I still believe 2329 was way too easy a swing back onto Ichirin, even with the explanation provided later. Would vote but would admittedly be bored doing so.
- Tenshi: Felt decent here for most of the game, but the behavior during the chaos at the end there is bizarre in how it focuses on discussing people other than the two viable elimination candidates. Don't know why there's so little effort to judge the merits of Ichirin versus Sanae when Tenshi's final Ichirin vote came across as giving up and settling for someone she wasn't enthused for. The only thing I can find in an attempt to justify picking one over the other is 2900 and if that's it that's really really bad. Don't really want to vote here because it feels like voting for myself but I can't deny just how non-town the overall behavior was during the last 8 hours of the game day.
- Sanae: I'm not going to bother looking into this because she's going to be either dead before this gets posted or the Day 2 elimination.
- Larva: I want to believe Larva is town but ending up on Ichirin when the train arrived at the station after spending so much of the day promoting Ichirin's towniness is Big Oof, particularly in the way that vote came about (a swing from Sanae to Ichirin purely to balance the trains at E-2). Paranoia won't stop trying to sell me on Town Kagerou/Mafia Larva/Mafia Sanae with Larva able to be more enthusiastic when Kagerou vs. Ichirin didn't really matter but needing to slam on the brakes once Sanae became a viable alternative. If Sanae has already died and flipped town by the time I post this, I'll go back to sleeping comfortably in the assumption Larva is town; if Sanae is alive, when she ultimately flips Mafia, Larva is at or near the top of the list of who's next.
- Marisa: Really don't like how "I also don't really buy Sanae-San's reads anymore" turned into a willingness to let Sanae live because night actions. On the other hand, there's no Sanae train in the first place with Marisa's initial vote, and given Marisa was on Ichirin prior to switching to Sanae, I can't fathom why Mafia Marisa wouldn't just sit on Ichirin the whole time if they were buddies with Sanae. I also don't know what Mafia Marisa stood to gain by switching back to Ichirin because of everything I said about flashwagons earlier. I guess I'm talking myself into actually feeling okay with this slot all of a sudden, especially if Sanae flips Mafia.
- Koishi: Someone has to be last, and it's not like the vote wasn't telegraphed. Opinion of this slot isn't changed due to placement on the train, at least.

Wow that's not how I expected those reads to go!

[Daiyousei]

Sanae survived and Larva was Mafia? Well then.

VOTE: Sanae

[Daiyousei]

Less than an hour in and Marisa is doing everything possible to convince me of a Larva/Sanae/Marisa team.

We're eliminating Sanae today, full stop. Do not suffer Mafia to live.

[Daiyousei]

Also, for what it's worth, I used my active ability last night and was given no reason to think it failed.

[Daiyousei]

Less than an hour in and Marisa is doing everything possible to convince me of a Larva/Sanae/Marisa team.

We're eliminating Sanae today, full stop. Do not suffer Mafia to live.

I was the one who started a flashwagon on Sanae so that's a biiiiit on the wild side! But I like wild people.

Less than an hour in and Marisa is doing everything possible to convince me of a Larva/Sanae/Marisa team.

We're eliminating Sanae today, full stop. Do not suffer Mafia to live.

Also, fine, but
1. I'm town
2. Marisa started the wagon on me so how does that work?

These posts have an incredibly obvious response that can be found by looking where Marisa's vote was when an elimination was secured.

[Daiyousei]

Daiyousei, do you scumread Sanae outside of sheeping my push on her and that one post you quoted?

- Larva: I want to believe Larva is town but ending up on Ichirin when the train arrived at the station after spending so much of the day promoting Ichirin's towniness is Big Oof, particularly in the way that vote came about (a swing from Sanae to Ichirin purely to balance the trains at E-2). Paranoia won't stop trying to sell me on Town Kagerou/Mafia Larva/Mafia Sanae with Larva able to be more enthusiastic when Kagerou vs. Ichirin didn't really matter but needing to slam on the brakes once Sanae became a viable alternative. If Sanae has already died and flipped town by the time I post this, I'll go back to sleeping comfortably in the assumption Larva is town; if Sanae is alive, when she ultimately flips Mafia, Larva is at or near the top of the list of who's next.

Eternity Larva,

Seiran - The Pale Blue Eagle Ravi

, aligned with

Incident Causers

, was eliminated Night 1.

[Daiyousei]

tl;dr Larva's switch to Ichirin being an attempt to save Sanae is as obvious as Sanae's claim being a lie and a stall tactic.

[Daiyousei]

Daiyousei, do you scumread Sanae outside of sheeping my push on her and that one post you quoted?

- Larva: I want to believe Larva is town but ending up on Ichirin when the train arrived at the station after spending so much of the day promoting Ichirin's towniness is Big Oof, particularly in the way that vote came about (a swing from Sanae to Ichirin purely to balance the trains at E-2). Paranoia won't stop trying to sell me on Town Kagerou/Mafia Larva/Mafia Sanae with Larva able to be more enthusiastic when Kagerou vs. Ichirin didn't really matter but needing to slam on the brakes once Sanae became a viable alternative. If Sanae has already died and flipped town by the time I post this, I'll go back to sleeping comfortably in the assumption Larva is town; if Sanae is alive, when she ultimately flips Mafia, Larva is at or near the top of the list of who's next.

Eternity Larva,

Seiran - The Pale Blue Eagle Ravi

, aligned with

Incident Causers

, was eliminated Night 1.

My girl:

- Marisa: Really don't like how "I also don't really buy Sanae-San's reads anymore" turned into a willingness to let Sanae live because night actions.

On the other hand, there's no Sanae train in the first place with Marisa's initial vote, and given Marisa was on Ichirin prior to switching to Sanae, I can't fathom why Mafia Marisa wouldn't just sit on Ichirin the whole time if they were buddies with Sanae

. I also don't know what Mafia Marisa stood to gain by switching back to Ichirin because of everything I said about flashwagons earlier. I guess I'm talking myself into actually feeling okay with this slot all of a sudden, especially if Sanae flips Mafia.

A very specific sequence of events has played out today that has made me realize why Mafia Marisa would have swung things over to Mafia Sanae!

[Daiyousei]

A very specific sequence of events has played out today that has made me realize why Mafia Marisa would have swung things over to Mafia Sanae!

I'm all ears!

Starting with your vote for Sanae, the way the end of the day played out combined with you trying to claim confirmed town status comes very much across like a Larva/Sanae/Marisa team setting up an endgame run for you. That you not only were willing to not only let Sanae try again Night 2, but suggested we instead eliminate Sanae's desired elimination target instead comes across as trying to buy Sanae as much time as possible to at least get in a set of Night 2 actions before she gets eliminated.

I'm not saying that Larva/Sanae/Marisa is definitely or even most likely the solution, but the play has been what I'd expect that team to try.

[Daiyousei]

A very specific sequence of events has played out today that has made me realize why Mafia Marisa would have swung things over to Mafia Sanae!

I'm all ears!

Starting with your vote for Sanae, the way the end of the day played out combined with you trying to claim confirmed town status comes very much across like a Larva/Sanae/Marisa team setting up an endgame run for you. That you not only were willing to not only let Sanae try again Night 2, but suggested we instead eliminate Sanae's desired elimination target instead comes across as trying to buy Sanae as much time as possible to at least get in a set of Night 2 actions before she gets eliminated.

I'm not saying that Larva/Sanae/Marisa is definitely or even most likely the solution, but the play has been what I'd expect that team to try.

Ok so like, let's do an imaginary exercise to humor me - let's imagine I'm town - is Marisa still scum? Who is scum in this universe

Answering this question would require re-reading Larva interactions, which I do not have the time for at the moment.

[Daiyousei]

That being said, my overnight write-up

did

mention two living names I stated a willingness to vote for, and off the top of my head neither Town Tenshi nor Mafia Larva makes either of them any towniers.

[Daiyousei]

Ok can you get to that when you have a chance please?

Well, yes, I was going to do this regardless of it being requested.

[Daiyousei]

If Sanae can activate it tonight why not just let them prove it like that and kill them tomorrow if it’s a lie

This is the entirety of Tenshi's input on Ichirin vs. Sanae. Even setting aside the fact that I was not told that my active action last night failed, I would want someone to explain why Town Tenshi would say this and then specifically use a spellcard that could prevent Sanae from stumping before I'm willing to begin entertaining the idea Tenshi used the earthquake card.

[Daiyousei]

Ah, hmm, Sanae

did

originally claim her role as having no active abilities and having a collection of spellcards, so Tenshi probably would not have thought the earthquake card would stop it.

I guess that means that people that didn't use Active abilities last night still have reason to be skeptical. How annoying.

[Daiyousei]

Oh my god is Chen Honk Honk in the game.

It's the Factional Abilities censor for Mafia flips, apparently!

[Daiyousei]

I was not informed about any restrictions on my active ability.

[Daiyousei]

I hereby retract my offer to self-vote before endgame and instead choose to rub it in the face of the rest of the green hair squad.

Look, I don't really know what a Stage 5 Boss Cosplaying An Extra Stage Boss expected from a Stage 2 Nameless Midboss.

[Daiyousei]

Anyway, if we're going to go the town block PoE route, I am fine with getting smushed by the steamroller once Sanae flips Mafia, but I will say that it would be to town's benefit if I am killed extrajudiciously, in the event a townie happens to have access to that.

[Daiyousei]

If today is going to dissolve into ignoring that Larva's Ichirin vote was a blatant attempt to save Sanae from elimination in favor of playing the pure mechanical game, I'm going to slow my posting roll way down and probably just wait for my inevitable PoE death. Someone quote-ping me if something interesting happens.

[Daiyousei]

It's mostly that it's frustrating to be a completely useless spectator while still alive and I'd like to at least pretend I contributed a tiny bit to the solve with my Larva-saved-Sanae observation.

[Daiyousei]

Golly gee wilikers

hey don't take my bit

it's all i have left

[Daiyousei]

Is it that the bird tengu person is like, a super recluse in the games and only talks to a few other people?

this is an incredible guess

are you sure you have 0 touhou knowledge

[Daiyousei]

A recluse investigative reporter is an oxymoron.

in gensokyo you can't let yourself be held back by common sense

Is it that the bird tengu person is like, a super recluse in the games and only talks to a few other people?

this is an incredible guess

are you sure you have 0 touhou knowledge

I have read the character's wiki page for approximately 90 seconds. Does that count?

i do want to respond to this but saying anything more than i already have starts to wade into "answer in aya's behalf" territory so you'll have to wait until she returns for more fairy shitposting

[Daiyousei]

*answer on aya's behalf

[Daiyousei]

*answer on aya's behalf

Aya's conftown outside of Flat Earther levels of conspiracy theories no?

good practices are good

[Daiyousei]

Is it that the bird tengu person is like, a super recluse in the games and only talks to a few other people?

okay so to get back to this

there is, in fact, a bird tengu that is a super recluse and only talks to a few other people

she's aya's direct business rival in journalism and her magic ability is basically being able to use google image search on her cell phone

[Daiyousei]

That uh sure is an art style.

zun's art style is historically one of his charm points

i invite you to look through the official portraits for the main character and how they have changed over the years (note that some of these were drawn by other artists)

[Daiyousei]

Really hoping day two doesn't end up in a content drought the way D1 had in the middle.

easiest way to avoid that is to eliminate sanae and move on to night 2

fairy wisdom never fails

[Daiyousei]

waiting for the third mafia to surrender

[Daiyousei]

like yes i'm being glib but from my perspective it really is as simple as yeeting sanae and then mowing through yuuka and reisen in whatever order that the people in charge of the game prefer

green-on-green violence!

[Daiyousei]

waiting for the third mafia to surrender

Where is the second mafia member?

sanae

[Daiyousei]

don't worry, piece-kouhai, miss yuuka is just like that (tm) with all fairies

[Daiyousei]

i refuse to believe some of you are unfamiliar with this franchise with how some of you are behaving

[Daiyousei]

(this is not a complaint)

[Daiyousei]

wow the green hate is palpable

i see how it is

[Daiyousei]

You're welcome to spend your time trying to figure out ways I can enjoy the series while also having the inability to play bullet hell games due to physical lack!

easy! there's official written works, and official albums with their own stories, and fan works, and fan remixes, and full-blown fan games in about every genre you can imagine, and...

[Daiyousei]

[Daiyousei]

koishi appears to be waiting for you, for what that's worth

[Daiyousei]

been busy and away all day so i have no new insights at the moment but i will say i had an epiphany about my role while i was out so i'll probably put more effort than originally planned into jockeying for position in regards to who gets smushed in what order by the town block steamroller

have a good sleepybye everyone!

[Daiyousei]

Can I get a tldr of why sanae is scum since larva flipped scum?

3207

[Daiyousei]

Actually I was originally going to write it as Sanae > Kaguya > Daiyousei > Kagerou.

this is a hecc of a priority list in the context of the final day 1 vote count

[Daiyousei]

Actually I was originally going to write it as Sanae > Kaguya > Daiyousei > Kagerou.

this is a hecc of a priority list in the context of the final day 1 vote count

I didn't look at the VC when I made it. What stands out to you?

what stands out is that your priority list is sanae and the three living people that voted for sanae while not including anyone that voted for ichirin

[Daiyousei]

Just had a look at the VC. Do you think all three scum were on-wagon? That's not usual.

if sanae flips town then absolutely the folks on her wagon deserve scrutiny

but if sanae flips mafia then it feels exceedingly dangerous at best to give everyone else that voted for town ichirin a pass and focus solely on the people that voted for mafia sanae

[Daiyousei]

touhou prodge-ect

mechchat is over my head so i don't really have anything meaningful to contribute at the moment aside from the above joke

[Daiyousei]

It's okay apparently all is quiet now?

it's nice of you to say this but the tiny shitgoblin in the back of my brain will not stop yelling at me that i'm not posting enough until the game is over

[Daiyousei]

Let's murder some Absinthe, shall we? (get it? cause Absinthe is the Green Faerie?)

@_@

[Daiyousei]

one would think kaguya of all people would be top notch at the internet discourse

perhaps we were too hasty in making that judgment

[Daiyousei]

what the hecc who told you that you could change your pfp

the uniformity, it is ruined ;_;

[Daiyousei]

Let's murder Sanae today.

well many of us would like to help you with your murder plans, but that's hard to do when you're the only crow here

[Daiyousei]

look you had to see that one coming after i started making the dai jokes

[Daiyousei]

I am here but not really needed.

day 2 motto