Among Us Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Akarin]

I wanna not do the RQS because I'm feeling grumpy and was gonna complain about it, but I like surveys

1)PR I want: Loyal Vig
2a)Scum miselim: Gamma
2b)Scum NK: Titus
2c)Scum buddy to be bussed by:

Taly

3)Mech-skill: decent but no one will listen to me
4)Candy: Maple candy, the kind that's just maple sugar that dissolves in your mouth, not the hard or artificial flavored stuff.
5a)Biggest strength: Townreading miselim-bait after initially scumreading them.
5b)Biggest Weakness: I'm too towny and care too much.

I wanna do some RQS as well.

Green?

[Akarin]

VOTE: gamma saw him vent

VOTE: TGP

[Akarin]

@Akarin I think if you still have a viewpoint on mechanics that you feel like should be posted, you should post it. You shouldn't let the idea that people might not listen to you stop you from getting your opinion out there.

Yeah that wasn't about anything in this game yet, just general saltiness.

Thanks Alisae

[Akarin]

I need to be in the same room 2 nights in a row.

This might throw a wrench in the claim plan.

[Akarin]

VOTE: gamma saw him vent

VOTE: TGP

You're against no elim?

No elim makes sense, I'll vote that later, just wanted to plop down an early vote. Not the most RVS of RVS votes because it's a

bit

serious.

[Akarin]

So do Imposters have a regular NK in addition to the alone-with-a-crewmember NK?

[Akarin]

it doesnt matter if someone needs to be in a room two nights in a row. the point of leashing the entire PL is that nobody can wander off and kill you when u r in that room alone on night 2

I meant in terms of how many nights it make take to complete. We can't just visit X number of rooms each night and cover each room on 1 night.

Maybe not enough people have combinations like mine for it to matter, but wanted to claim this before we get too far.

Also splitting into smaller groups where the towniest players are paired makes sense, but if scum have a regular NK they can potentially frame people.

[Akarin]

I also want to claim that my post restrictions aren't so bad. Like I could have a pretty much normal day while adhering to them both days, just might say some slightly weird stuff.

[Akarin]

This should be obvious but just to reiterate: the more townies that die, the more tasks we have to get done with fewer players.

That's the logic of the noelim.

[Akarin]

I'll claim my room if and only if exactly 1 or 2 other players are going to the same room as me. That way if I die it'll be clear who else was with me, but if I'm alone on N1 Imposters can't risk going to random rooms looking for me, but if only 1 room is empty I might be with the group of 3 or whatever and we'll just all find out about it at night.

I can't keep track of everything that's been claimed, and I'll wait until we decide where we're going.

[Akarin]

Does anyone have post restrictions that will really strongly impair playing the game as normal on later days?

[Akarin]

1-2 people will die every night anyway. Those tasks don't get completed.

So we're going to be picking up some extra tasks no matter what.

There will likely be enough tasks, scum don't need to avoid claiming them, that's not going to be a reliable tell.

There are 10 possible locations, it's not as trivial to keep everyone together as I think Flea and Cute Barking Doggy are thinking.

[Akarin]

Uhm, this is odd. You're wanting other people to claim before you do, and you'll only claim once people are going to your rooms.

People are already claiming before I do, but I'm too lazy to compile Alisae's list for em

If we popcorn, I'll obviously comply with a popcorn but if I'm gonna end up alone I think it's potentially useful to have not claimed, but only in those circumstances.

I also want to encourgae Reck and the like to think about this and claim where they're going if they are going there with exactly 1 or 2 other people because otherwise they could be the bonus kills without it making it clear who even might have done it.

[Akarin]

@Flea

If someone claims to be done with their tasks (which is more obvious if we've claimed what we're doing) then under what circumstances do you imagine anyone refuses to take on a task?

[Akarin]

There is none, unless they're imposters.

But Imposters have to take the tasks too, no one's gonna claim Imposter like that.

With ~34 tasks and 10 different rooms I just think some of you are overestimating how quickly we'll get tasks done.

I like Pooky's plan for the most part, although I think maybe only claiming N1 might be better, then work out a new arrangement on N2. But popcorning is probably best.

Since I already felt I had to claim that I'm in the same room twice, that puts me in a weird spot, I don't want to wait until N2 and N3 to do anything if it doesn't make sense for anyone else to go with me, I'd be willing to risk it alone, and that might be worth doing depending on where others are going.

And I think people that have to be in the same room twice should probably NOT claim that about their roles unless they are claiming everything.

I just needed to get that out there so people knew it was a thing that could exist.

[Akarin]

It's a clever way to say that Titus and I are gunna get yeeted to the dead thread. Titus because she doesn't want to RQS, me because I'm incapable of restricting my post count.

It doesn't just fail your task?

[Akarin]

Assuming scum have to have a way to interfere shouldn't we hunt for them first and then shift gears once that role is dead?

Based on watching several Among Us videos on youtube, it seems like scum Sabotage abilities would be factional rather than PRs.

[Akarin]

He's saying he thinks that your reasoning is too detailed to come from scum.
But he's head slapping you and telling you what the pecking order is.
Maybe, probably?

I don't agree tho, I think scum role spec quite often and then come into the game and lead on that foot because it's unblemished from a scum role perspective.
It's a good entry and always tends to get scum town read early game before better reasons shine through (or don't).

Bell is now a townread

[Akarin]

I think OutWorldER is being far too

dogmatic

[Akarin]

@Gamma

Is there any sort of thing we can say that would help you with future post restrictions? A list of quotable sentences?

Ignore this if you aren't allowed to say.

[Akarin]

VOTE: gamma saw him vent

VOTE: TGP

Why are you voting the person with the pass?

Because they wanted the pass.

[Akarin]

What's the point of RQS if you're not going to comment on the answers?

I demand validation!

[Akarin]

We could rank the game into scummiest half and towniest half. Towniest half go in groups of 3, scumiest half go in groups of 2.

Might be better to save that for later days though.

[Akarin]

Is anyone actually opposed to the idea of deliberately traveling in groups to our room for the nights?

I'm not sure if the people objecting to claims are objecting to that part too?

[Akarin]

Is that scummy? I said I’d do it in the sign ups so it’d be neutral to do.

Yeah, I'm not scumreading or townreading

you

for it. But TGP had their role PM when they posted.

[Akarin]

The 10 rooms limit the options a lot though, especially if we don't claim everything so we can't try to plan it optimally

[Akarin]

Both alignments don’t wanna get limmed. Why’s scum more likely to snap that up?
I like you’re trying to sort it though.

I mean, I think it's +scum but not like some huge thing.

You don't think scum are at all more likely than town to jump at the chance to get a D1 pass?

[Akarin]

Why didn’t you press Flea on the vote, Akarin?

Because Flea did it after.

[Akarin]

Flea had the same intent. Why is it deifferent if it comes after? That seems a bit dishonest to push one and not the other.

Flea did a big catchup post, if they really cared about getting the pass from you that much they could have just made that joke before doing it.

[Akarin]

The sooner we get all the claims in the sooner we can plan out movement and scum can’t change their claims later.

Since I don't have to go anywhere else, I want to hold off and go it alone if my destination doesn't make sense with the rest of you, then you don't have to repeat rooms on my account.
I think people with 2 different destinations should claim.
I should claim if I'm gonna end up with someone n1 anyway.

Does that make sense?

[Akarin]

People keep saying TSQ wouldn't have made a broken game, but why does that mean Tasks wouldn't be relevant? They're one of the central mechanics of this game.

There's a huge gap between "town can break the game" and "town can gain some advantage"

Note that if the tasks are evenly distributed and we all just do them randomly, 1-3 people are going to end up alone each night. And that's assuming scum go to random rooms. If we don't claim then scum gets the double kill without anyone being particularly suspicious for it.

I'm worried that some of the objections are just coming from a kneejerk reaction.

[Akarin]

Cakez, why were you ISOing Gamma if you're concerned about the Titus wagon being scum-driven?

[Akarin]

VOTE: reckoner
Nah, not letting you act like you’re willing to play ball and then try to run away with it when you realize you have to play fair

oh, not eliminating anyone to give us time to do tasks is pretty smart actually? i think?

How’d you know that came up?

And yeah why the fuck are you okay with the no elim but not the plan portion?
VOTE: Reckoner
TGP you had a point about looking at who supported what.

Don't like these votes at all

Titus

wagon feels scum driven

These weren't accidental misquotes?

[Akarin]

VOTE: Haschel

baaaaaa

[Akarin]

Wait, Flea, why do you think coordinating where we go

increases

the chance of scum getting bonus NKs?

The whole point of coordination is to make the bonus NKs nearly impossible.

[Akarin]

I tore open his belly and pulled out his organs

Your avatar makes that even scarier/cuter

[Akarin]

The way you describe it Flea makes it sounds like scum supports massclaim

I believe they would. Given the state of play the can just kinda chill out, see who claims where then claim rooms with fewer people, target night kills at larger groups and potentially score free bonus kills. Also given that the imposters are given fake tasks, people claiming tasks gives them an idea of what tasks are in the game, and would give them more information to help fabricate their claims.

You said it.

Frankly, I think you're thinking about this wrong. Far too fuzzy. We're not actually playing Among Us.

Like it's hard to tell where you're wrong because you seem to simultaneously be saying different things at various points, but you keep saying stuff that just seems incorrect (and even sometimes disagrees with yourself.)

[Akarin]

I think it's important to clear up any confusion about the setup ASAP

[Akarin]

I have, but I'm worried about how jumbled your brain is...

[Akarin]

So I've yet to see an argument for why the game would be designed around tasks being pointless, despite people asserting this to be true.

[Akarin]

And if only the few claim that have claimed now, we're essentially guaranteeing 2 NKs with no one looking particularly suspicious for them. I think claiming where we are going N1 makes sense for at least a lot of players.

I think I'm kind of a special case as outlined before and I still might want to claim it depending.

Like are people clear that that's the cost of not claiming anything? And that's worth not giving scum the information?

Or do people disagree with that conclusion?

[Akarin]

DGB, why should I vote for Blitzo?

[Akarin]

But as long as a few players ignore that and scum go to other rooms, no one is accountable and they still get 2 NKs most likely.

[Akarin]

It's frustrating because I feel like people's eyes started glazing over at the mech talk and they just shut their brains down and stopped thinking about it.

[Akarin]

I don't feel like that's the point people are making - I think the point is that banking the entire game on doing tasks faster than scum can kill us is an inherently bad strategy simply based on how balancing works.

That's an argument against no-elim, not an argument against claiming though.

Although there's still reason to no-elim D1 but not on later days.

[Akarin]

obviously i can't prove this, but i think blitzo wrote this AFTER previewing and faked it so they didn't

Why though?

[Akarin]

Blitzo, what caused you to add this in as a pedit?

PEDIT - #973 is simply not a good post.

[Akarin]

Blitzo, can you check if you're mis-numbering? Because that would clear something up

[Akarin]

Also, TGP is a they

[Akarin]

Blitzo, you say a few times that no-elim is obviously bad, like to the point you want to vote for people suggesting it.

Why?

The idea behind it is that we get tasks done faster if we have more players working on them and D1 eliminations are usually on town anyway.

After 1 Day, 1/3-1/2 of the tasks are gonna be done so each miseliminated townie only adds 1 task unless they were one of the minority who didn't do one as part of keeping someone else safe.

What part of that is obviously bad to you?

[Akarin]

I also think I answered this question already earlier?
It was mostly a game balance thing and the fact that we're already massclaiming all the stuff that makes it possible for us to win that way just makes it way easier for scum to pack us in that way.
Though I didn't really think of the numbers behind it.
What exactly is our plan though?
Do nothing and win?
That seems...Terrible, for a number of reasons.

I think you're just objectively wrong here, as I've tried to lay out in the last dozen or so posts.

Care to explain your reasoning a bit more? Why is it terrible for a number of reasons? Why do you think the plan is to do nothing? Why do you think the game would be designed with tasks being unachievable, why put them in then?

Why do you think it's terrible to try to limit scum bonus kills and gain an advantage for town?

[Akarin]

@Reck: The case for it is: we could ensure that everyone is in a group of 3 people, at the cost of taking 1 more day to do tasks (which we'll need anyway because of kills.)

If we all do a task tonight, some people absolutely end up alone, probably multiple people. There are 10 rooms and 17 players, and scum can lie. We aren't gonna get that great a POE I think.

[Akarin]

@Akarin - What exactly do you mean by "bonus kills?"
Sorry if I missed it, I checked your ISO and I know that you've been talking about it but I'm just not really seeing it.
A task win as a primary win where we outrace scum by doing tasks before they simply kill us can't be possible.
Like...That can't be right.

Scum get 2 NKs instead of 1 if they are alone with 1 town member.

This seems like something worth avoiding, that's been the whole point of the claim plan.

And if it's simply not possible for a mechanic to come into play, why design it into the setup?

[Akarin]

tbh I am concerned about the number of people who said Titus would be their N1 in addition to the amount of people pushing Titus

Were you keeping a list of people's response posts?

Any overlap in the two?

[Akarin]

right now im thinking

we do

3 to a room for 5 roomes
2 people solo (they don't say where they go)

if there's a bonus NK it has to be in a room where 2 scum - 1 town were

hence we get a double guilty.

Thoughts?

I like it.

My having to double up with the same room is the reason I want to maybe go alone, because seems there aren't many of those.

People could sign onto rooms without actually claiming their tasks, that might be a good compromise.

[Akarin]

I think scum probably still has some trouble getting those extra kills off if we all claim hood members. Unless there's vents or something.

There's 1.7 people in the average room.

[Akarin]

Okay, so using the magic of random.org, I did a night where everyone goes to a random room:
Assume 4 Imposters, everyone goes to a random room (Imposters can do better than this)

• Cafeteria: Crew #4
• Weapons: Crew #11, Imposter #4
• Navigation: Crew #6, Crew #12, Imposter #1, Imposter #3
• Shields: Crew #1, Crew #13
• Communications: Crew #3, Crew #7
• Admin: Crew #8
• Electrical: Crew #5, Crew #9
• Security:
• Reactor: Crew #2
• Upper Engine: Crew #10, Imposter #2

---

Say Crew #10 dies as a bonus kill to Imposter #2, and they use their normal kill on Imposter #4.

Imposter #2 and Imposter #4 clear each other. Imposters #1 and #3 are cleared by a big group of town.
Crew #4, #8, #2 are suspicious.

Or if they really wanted to NK crew #9, for example, then Crew #5 has no one to vouch for them either, while

one of the Imposters is cleared by town and only 1 is left in a pool of suspicion with 4 townies.

[Akarin]

I just think y'all are vastly overestimating how good the POE is if we do this completely random and unannounced.

[Akarin]

Cakez, is the BM vote just about lurking/meta? I thought some of it was their actual posts?

[Akarin]

Aren't you scumreading him though?

Or am I confused?

[Akarin]

Everyone agrees this is bad though right? We need to at least let the people who want to group, group.

If it's like 5 people trying to group it's not much different than random is the point.

And no, I'm not sure everyone agrees this is bad. A lot of people keep saying things that make me think they

don't

actually agree this is bad.

[Akarin]

SIGH

I wasn't at any point suggesting going to random rooms.

The assumption of random is that everyone just doing one of their tasks amounts to random rooms, assuming roughly equal distribution of tasks among the rooms.

[Akarin]

Are you just deliberately trying to muddy the water here Titus?

[Akarin]

Are you just deliberately trying to muddy the water here Titus?

No. I just literally don't understand why you're saying random rooms at all.

I'm arguing in favor of at least partial claiming and saying that half the players haven't thought this through and have unrealistic expectations.

Random rooms = everyone refuses to claim and "just does our tasks"

[Akarin]

why would imposters kill their own player what

Crew #11 (the one paired with Imposter #4)

Sorry

[Akarin]

EBWOP

Okay, so using the magic of random.org, I did a night where everyone goes to a random room:
Assume 4 Imposters, everyone goes to a random room (Imposters can do better than this)

• Cafeteria: Crew #4
• Weapons: Crew #11, Imposter #4
• Navigation: Crew #6, Crew #12, Imposter #1, Imposter #3
• Shields: Crew #1, Crew #13
• Communications: Crew #3, Crew #7
• Admin: Crew #8
• Electrical: Crew #5, Crew #9
• Security:
• Reactor: Crew #2
• Upper Engine: Crew #10, Imposter #2

---

Say Crew #10 dies as a bonus kill to Imposter #2, and they use their normal kill on Crew #11.

Imposter #2 and Imposter #4 clear each other. Imposters #1 and #3 are cleared by a big group of town.
Crew #4, #8, #2 are suspicious.

Or if they really wanted to NK crew #9, for example, then Crew #5 has no one to vouch for them either, while

one of the Imposters is cleared by town and only 1 is left in a pool of suspicion with 4 townies.

[Akarin]

This doesn't work as scum only get one edible kill per night so Imposter 2 and 4 cannot clear each other. They'd both have to be in solo rooms to do that.

If they kill one town with the regular NK and one with the bonus kill, both are alone and they can lie and say they were together.

[Akarin]

If 2 Imposters wind up in rooms either by themselves, or with town who they kill, why doesn't it makes sense for them to lie about where they were to clear themselves?

[Akarin]

I need to go to sleep, but I just really wanted to hammer this home because I feel like a bunch of people are being unrealistic about the POE chances after a double NK.

And people keep picking at little things without really acknowledging the point I’m trying to make, but I feel like I need to answer those things.

If we just all do tasks willy-nilly,

2 town are going to die every night

and there will

not

be useful POE to figure out who killed them.

In exchange, we avoid giving scum information and we get the tasks done slightly faster. I don't think this is worth it, and I haven't actually seen an argument that it is, beyond vague handwaving and dogmatism.

[Akarin]

Similarly, I'm not in favor of No Elimination today because it hands scum a free kill.

Haschel, if you're not in favor of handing scum free kills

why the heck are you opposed to claiming rooms?

[Akarin]

I'm worried that Blitzo dismissed all the setup talk without apparently reading the setup.

[Akarin]

Has it

ever

been true that people talking mech in a mech-heavy setup are greater than random chance scum?

Or do people just say that every game as a way to not engage with it?

[Akarin]

Taly

I can't tell if

Blitzo

is scum or town not paying enough attention. They seem to have a slow internet connection or at least a slow means of responding to posts, maybe a phone that's not especially fast or something?

[Akarin]

I don't think we have enough info to decide either way so people should just do what they want. I think this is better than random because some people want to group. I think scum will get an extra kill off tonight but what can you do.

Not have everyone just do what they want.

2 NKs is 2 NKs. Someone making a personal choice to gamethrow isn't better than just... not doing that.

[Akarin]

Because it gives the scum waaaaaaay too much room to maneuver and at the moment they have a lot more information about how to use game mechanics to their advantage than we do.

I've spent a bunch of words trying to explain why this is important, and your response is just nothing. Explain why this is "waaaaaay too much information" to the extent that it's worth giving scum an extra NK to prevent them from having. I think it's a pretty high burden and you're not actually giving anything other than meaningless generalities.

scum always have a lot more information about the game mechanics than we do but you're opposed to trying to use what we

do

know to our advantage at all.

I think that requires a lot more justification than "shrug, plans bad"

[Akarin]

There is a difference between "breaking the game" and using the information in the setup post to avoid giving scum free kills on town.

There's a difference between avoiding giving scum information in general, and avoiding giving scum information at the cost of the death of town.

This is like having a rolecop result that someone is a BP-Townie and not outing that when they're at E-1 because you don't want scum to have the information.

[Akarin]

I think it is fair and I've laid out my reasons.

Half the players are just "shrug, plans r dumb"

If there's a sabotage that allows scum to overcome grouping (Lights?) why should we assume it's not better to force them to use that rather than giving them the NK

and

the ability to use another sabotage.

Seems reasonable to assume they can't use all the sabotages at once, just like in Among Us. Do you disagree?

[Akarin]

I agree and pretty much already said the same thing

You said the same thing except you refuse to take a stance and keep saying everyone should just do what they want anyway.

"Scum will just get an extra kill tonight, what can you do?"

We could not make it easy for scum to get an extra kill.

[Akarin]

VOTE: Murdercat

[Akarin]

Murdercat basically agrees with the logic but doesn't care about the result, and doesn't want to agree too strongly.

[Akarin]

I was like one of the first people to claim

and?

[Akarin]

its basically a shot in the dark if scum get their bonus NK without any accountability.

It's not just a shot in the dark. At the current level of claims it's actually incredibly likely that scum get the bonus NK with no accountability.

If it was just Reck it wouldn't be so bad.

[Akarin]

Can't we reconstruct that knowledge from the hoods though? I'm not convinced that knowing it in advance changes anything in that regard.

So show me where I'm wrong then.

I thought I demonstrated pretty clearly why you can't reconstruct it from the hoods.

[Akarin]

And you are acting like I am tip toeing when I have clearly been in favor of claiming the whole time. Have you even claimed your rooms yet? What I'm not convinced of is that we know enough about the setup to force others to agree, because basically the only way to do this is to threaten to vote them out otherwise. I think that not wanting share info is a reasonable position a townie might have and so I'm not in favor of voting people out if they don't comply. And if we aren't willing to do that then there is no way to actually get people to group how we want.

Because you are tip toeing around taking a stance that could upset anyone, or pressure anyone into doing things that are good for town.

You basically agree it's good for town, but then don't care if people do it at all. And then undermine that point with bad arguments that have already been made and debunked except no one wants to talk about it except to reiterate bad points.

And I've explained why I'm holding off on claiming my rooms and why I'm a special case (the repeat thing). I think anyone else with the same setup should likewise hold off until more people claim for the same reason, but it seems pretty uncommon.

And trying to point out that people are being anti-town is a good thing to do, it's not just don't-talk-about-it-but-vote-out-Reck.

It's a reasonable kneejerk reaction but most people don't seem to be presenting any actual reasoning beyond that initial knee-jerk.

[Akarin]

Can we move on to no elimination and compliance? I am bored and this feels like an RVS that will last forever.

Who's still in RVS?

[Akarin]

Pooky, why Reck over Haschel?

[Akarin]

Yeah but if we can't convince at least a majority of the town then it doesn't amount to anything.

[Akarin]

I don't know why Akarin and Murdercat are even a thing re: last page.

Did you not see my reason for voting or do you not agree or do you not understand it?

[Akarin]

I don't know why Akarin and Murdercat are even a thing re: last page.

Did you not see my reason for voting or do you not agree or do you not understand it?

1st and 3rd. Explain it?

Spoiler: The relevant posts

I don't think we have enough info to decide either way so people should just do what they want. I think this is better than random because some people want to group. I think scum will get an extra kill off tonight but what can you do.

Not have everyone just do what they want.

2 NKs is 2 NKs. Someone making a personal choice to gamethrow isn't better than just... not doing that.

I'm not convinced it is a game throw is the thing and I'm not convinced that grouping prevents an extra NK. I believe it is the better choice but I don't think it's fair to suggest that not giving up info is unilaterally worse.

If there's a sabotage that allows scum to overcome grouping (Lights?) why should we assume it's not better to force them to use that rather than giving them the NK and the ability to use another sabotage.

Seems reasonable to assume they can't use all the sabotages at once, just like in Among Us. Do you disagree?

I agree and pretty much already said the same thing

You said the same thing except you refuse to take a stance and keep saying everyone should just do what they want anyway.

"Scum will just get an extra kill tonight, what can you do?"

We could not make it easy for scum to get an extra kill.

Murdercat basically agrees with the logic but doesn't care about the result, and doesn't want to agree too strongly.

I was like one of the first people to claim

And you are acting like I am tip toeing when I have clearly been in favor of claiming the whole time. Have you even claimed your rooms yet? What I'm not convinced of is that we know enough about the setup to force others to agree, because basically the only way to do this is to threaten to vote them out otherwise. I think that not wanting share info is a reasonable position a townie might have and so I'm not in favor of voting people out if they don't comply. And if we aren't willing to do that then there is no way to actually get people to group how we want.

Because you are tip toeing around taking a stance that could upset anyone, or pressure anyone into doing things that are good for town.

You basically agree it's good for town, but then don't care if people do it at all. And then undermine that point with bad arguments that have already been made and debunked

[Akarin]

Giant quote pyramids are ugly and stupid and I won't participate in them because of handwaving and grumpiness.

But I think my stance is clear.

[Akarin]

This nonstop mech talk has only made it more difficult for me to read players and no conclusion has come from it whether mech or solving standpoint.

I think there's a lot of readable stuff in here, and mostly I'm just trying to browbeat people into actually either listening to reason, or

having

reasons and that seems both worth doing, and if we're going to do it, worth doing

not

rather than later.

[Akarin]

now* rather than later.

[Akarin]

Speaking of being ignored, Taly you wanted clarification on my murdercat vote, but never followed up on whether or not that actually clarified anything for you. I mostly just requoted myself after all, but since you said you missed it I thought it might be enough, but might also not be.

Any thoughts on that?

[Akarin]

I think the most frustrating thing about mech talk is it's completely necessary in setups like this, but people's eyes glaze over when it starts.

I think there's plenty of AI stuff in there. Specifically in MurderCat's

approach

to sort-of agreeing with stuff but not pushing it. As their responses to me trying to point that out where they got into "well I was among the first to claim" as a defense. Why do you think that's totally irrelevant to alignment?

[Akarin]

Hi Bell! And thank you. I've been feeling that way too. I think there's a sort of cliquiness thing that happens in Larges or something?

Off the top of my head, Gamma, Alisae, Titus, Pooky are all town to me. I think I'm also townreading TGP but I can't for the life of me remember why exactly.

[Akarin]

Oh, I figured out why I'm townreading TGP, and I'm not going to say.

[Akarin]

Could you explain Gamma, Titus, and if you have time (you can half ass it) Pooky?

In brief, I don't agree with all Gamma's reads, I think some of them are kind of ridiculous, but I kind of see where most of the stuff he says is coming from and it seems very actively solvey. Posts like 516 or 1029. Or the "scumslip" argument on Reck and then dropping it and thinking Reck was stubborn town rather than getting tunneled on it.

Titus it's partly that she's sitting stubbornly on No Elimination despite wanting the wagons for scumhunting. She could be pushing a wagon on town if she were scum, it's reasonably likely, and if she were scum, having more wagon analysis for BS later would be useful, but she's stubbornly sticking to what she thinks is best for town. Is it that impossible that she could have agreed with Alisae "for the wagon analysis" or something?

Also her mini argument with me yesterday, I thought she resolved in a very pro-town way when it would have been trivial to make that more anti-town.

Pooky it's the joy of trying to solve the setup stuff and how I feel we're kind of mind-melding on parts of it and I feel some frustrated-bear at places when I was feeling frustrated too. Not in the way that tons of people just want to whine about too much mech talk or "still being in RVS" (which yes, I know was Titus, but I don't think it's a scum thing, just a counterproductive thing that happens in a lot of games). Pooky feels like he's having the same thought process around some of this stuff in a way that I don't think is easy to fake.

[Akarin]

>I want to group but I don't think everybody should, especially if they'd rather not.

What's the point in this. If there are 2 scum NKs but you aren't among them, how is that better than having just one NK?

[Akarin]

That was a very frustrating response, Taly. I'll come back later. But I did post a lot of stuff before.

Feels like you aren't really looking at what I'm saying about Murdercat at all.

[Akarin]

2. I don't think titus is the only player that gets at least a little something from VCA, if anything it doesn't make sense that she wants to end the day with less information than we would've gathered through normal play.

I feel like "weird and not very convincing" are NAI for Gamma.

I don't mean that Titus is the only player that gets stuff from VCA, I think it's worth looking at too! But Titus can make a big stupid deal about it. I think (on some weird gut level, not based on any previous game) that leaving the day with less information isn't scum!Titus' likely approach to this kind of thing. That information can be manipulated, and Titus is a player that I perceive as being really able to get away with manipulating it. Strikes me as her resignedly doing what she thinks is the objectively best move, and I don't think there's any reason to act that way as scum.

[Akarin]

Flea, what was your gut feeling on Titus before you reread her ISO and made your big wall?

[Akarin]

That's exactly what I was gunna say

Yeah but it's only towny when Bell says it.

[Akarin]

It seems like a lot of tasks only take 1 day phase to complete. So if we have the maximum number of town players on Day 2, we get 1 more task done total.

I guess actually eliminating someone isn't so bad, I think it's much better than not claiming, which

also

loses us a task completion.

I still see a lot of people asserting that a task victory is impossible with no reasoning other than "feels like it should be" often while saying that TSQ wouldn't design a game poorly (in which case, why have task victory in the rules if it's basically impossible)

[Akarin]

VOTE: Flea

Your words don't match your spew

[Akarin]

The Shea is a good mod argument should suggest that tasks are a well balanced win con that is both possible and not breakable by mass claim.

Why do people keep equating "gaining the most advantage from" with "breakable"?

[Akarin]

And for the record, we actually get tasks done slightly slower on a per-night basis if we claim. It's just that we prevent additional NKs (which is good for tasks in the long run)

[Akarin]

Like my point is that if you think it's unlikely that a mass claim of tasks breaks the game, you should also think that tasks are a viable win con.

Oh, well I completely agree with this then!

[Akarin]

TGP's Blitzo case is hella good

I think it's terrible, but I'm not really townreading Blitzo so I don't want to bother picking it apart.

But like "voting into the no elims" Blitzo obviously meant to vote for people who wanted to no-elim (which is dumb) but TGP took it to mean Blitzo was supporting no-elim while calling it obviously bad.

Case is either full of confbias or scum looking to invent reasons for a read. Given the timing, my read on TGP for other reasons, and that I'm pretty sure they had another confbias moment in a different game as town, I'm leaning confbias. But it's not a good case.

[Akarin]

Alisae, do you know what post your last table was up to date to? Was it up to date to the post you posted it at?

If you've lost the will to do it, I could do it instead.

We gotta organize this mess.

[Akarin]

Taly, when stuff like that happened to me I siteflaked completely. Taking some V/LA time is totally understandable. I hope everything works out.

Sorry for how frustrating our stupid healthcare system is.

[Akarin]

Is the concept of coordinating anything just out the window now >:?

No, we need to just willpower through.

If we don't coordinate this, how can we yell at Reck for gamethrowing after the game?

[Akarin]

Blitzo, speaking of setup, now that you know that not coordinating where we go gives scum a free extra NK every night, do you still think we shouldn't coordinate?

[Akarin]

Has there been new claims or anything I'm just missing?

No clue, but I'll try to find out if you haven't been reading closely (sounds like you haven't?)

I was feeling like I was being mean to TGP, so thanks for taking the pressure off btw

[Akarin]

This should be up to date:

Tasks
Player	Number of Tasks	Location 1	Location 2	Location 3
MURDERCAT	2	Reactor	Comms	N/A
Blitzo	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
xRECKONERx	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
TheGoldenParadox	2	Security	Security/L2	Location 2
Flea The Magician	2	Storage	Security	N/A
Haschel Cedricson	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
DrippingGoofball	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
Battle Mage	1	Electrical	N/A	N/A
Gamma Emerald	1	Weapons	N/A	N/A
Alisae	2	Electrical	Admin	N/A
Titus	1	Electrical	N/A	N/A
OutWorldER	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
Taly	2	Navigation	Admin	N/A
SirCakez	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
Akarin	1	Location 1	Location 1	N/A
PookyTheMagicalBear	2	Navigation	Cafeteria	N/A
Bell	2	Navigation	Security	N/A

[Akarin]

Cakez, what's your read on Alisae right now?

[Akarin]

So we need more people to either claim, or we need to decide we're going to rooms based on the people who've already claimed and we all get on board and let scum kill Haschel and Reck for us.

[Akarin]

Regarding post restrictions:

on Day 2 we should try to adhere to our post restrictions without making them obvious for as long as possible

. Might not be possible for everyone, but try to make it look natural if you can.

[Akarin]

Regarding post restrictions:

on Day 2 we should try to adhere to our post restrictions without making them obvious for as long as possible

. Might not be possible for everyone, but try to make it look natural if you can.

What's the point of this

Post restrictions are how scum can fake tasks.

[Akarin]

Im pretty sure that the gather up and stay together plan is out the window and we're just heading wherever the hell we like. I guess this crosses a line off my todo.

Why do you think this and do you disagree with what I've been saying about it?

[Akarin]

but how does not claiming them help scum

That's the opposite of what I'm saying?

I'm saying that there may be duplicate tasks out there. It's possible scum's example tasks don't correlate to the actual post-restriction-task matchups, but they have to be adhering to them.

That's information worth withholding.

We shouldn't claim our specific post restrictions and should try to obfuscate them if possible until everyone has posted enough times that they can't claim to be doing the same thing.

[Akarin]

Okay, do you still need an answer to that or does #1559 clear things up.

Because not sure how else to rephrase it.

[Akarin]

Thank you DGB.

I think it's worth having TGP claim whether or not Security is the two-night task. If it is, we should split things up and have like Bell with them one night and Flea with them another night, probably a 3rd player on both if we can manage it. If Security is the 1-night task, could let the other go unclaimed for today and have everyone who needs to go to Security go to Security.

TGP's repeat room seems like it might be a crux of what the ideal groupings are. Including how many other people are going there. TGP seems to have the most tasks.

I don't need to go to Security.

Anyone else with 3 rooms they need to be in should claim that ASAP.

Spoiler: Current Chart

Tasks
Player	Number of Tasks	Location 1	Location 2	Location 3
MURDERCAT	2	Reactor	Comms	N/A
Blitzo	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
xRECKONERx	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
TheGoldenParadox	2	Security	Security/L2	Location 2
Flea The Magician	2	Storage	Security	N/A
Haschel Cedricson	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
DrippingGoofball	2	Electrical	Location 2	N/A
Battle Mage	1	Electrical	N/A	N/A
Gamma Emerald	1	Weapons	N/A	N/A
Alisae	2	Electrical	Admin	N/A
Titus	1	Electrical	N/A	N/A
OutWorldER	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
Taly	2	Navigation	Admin	N/A
SirCakez	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
Akarin	1	Location 1	Location 1	N/A
PookyTheMagicalBear	2	Navigation	Cafeteria	N/A
Bell	2	Navigation	Security	N/A

[Akarin]

Thanks Fluffy Doggy !
VOTE: Murdercat

Spoiler: Current Chart

Tasks
Player	Number of Tasks	Location 1	Location 2	Location 3
MURDERCAT	2	Reactor	Comms	N/A
Blitzo	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
xRECKONERx	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
TheGoldenParadox	2	Security	Security/L2	Location 2
Flea The Magician	2	Storage	Security	N/A
Haschel Cedricson	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
DrippingGoofball	2	Electrical	Location 2	N/A
Battle Mage	1	Electrical	N/A	N/A
Gamma Emerald	1	Weapons	N/A	N/A
Alisae	2	Electrical	Admin	N/A
Titus	1	Electrical	N/A	N/A
OutWorldER	2	Cafeteria	N/A	N/A
Taly	2	Navigation	Admin	N/A
SirCakez	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
Akarin	1	Cafeteria	Cafeteria	N/A
PookyTheMagicalBear	2	Navigation	Cafeteria	N/A
Bell	2	Navigation	Security	N/A

[Akarin]

Iirc only one point has been effectively refuted

What point do you find most persuasive?

Also, any thoughts on your RQS, doubt we're getting any more answers.

[Akarin]

The short prod timer is hell on weekends. I'll fully catch up from my last post tomorrow but reminder to Gamma to get back to me on TGP's Blitzo case while I'm getting back on everything else.

[Akarin]

We really need to get the last of those claims in from people who are willing to not give scum free NKs.

I've convinced myself I'm into eliminating someone. The "let's get some town-controlled flips" argument is good, especially as it'll be 3 days minimum to task completion anyway.

[Akarin]

I'm actually gonna
UNVOTE:

I'm still down for a MurderCatMurder but I want to work through actual planning stuff when I have time and can think and don't want all the off-wagon people coming in and ending the day before I get back to this.

I'll be around for deadline and quite a bit tomorrow in general.

[Akarin]

I want people on the Blitzo wagon to weigh in on if the new stick avatar has strengthened their scumread, weakened it, or not changed it at all.

I don't think the avatar angle is one that should be ignored here.

[Akarin]

Wait, why the heck has Cakez not claimed?

[Akarin]

Dear Flea,

Your post 1867 is even more impossible to parse. Please give some actual context to what you're referring to so I don't have to open 50 tabs in order to attempt to understand your post.

Akarin

[Akarin]

I have Reactor and Comms
I didn't claim earlier because I was waiting for a popcorn that never materialized

Thanks Cakez.

Now we need Blitzo, pretty sure they basically agreed with the logic of this.

[Akarin]

If you're town you shouldn't be self-voting anyway?

Normally I would at deadline, as a miselim that would happen later is better than a no elim. I don't think that's the case here.

I'll need everybody scumreading

Murder

to walk-me-through how this post comes from scum.

I don't see why this post is notably towny at all, Taly.

On theory I actually agree, I wouldn't self-hammer here either. But I don't see why that stance is particularly towny.

[Akarin]

Yeah I guess I only repeatedly pointed out where you didn't explain your reads.
Actually I just recalled the only other time we interacted and it was when I pointed out where you didn't explain your reads.
Then you continued not explaining your reads.
But I guess it's okay if you wanna keep pushing this angle where you're so transparent and clear when you haven't done even the slightest bit of reasoning.
Someone just pointed out how your reads are forming (RE - being based on whether someone scum/townreads you) and I think that's actually pretty accurate.
If there's something I missed definitely point it out because I'm just not seeing someone scumhunting tbh.

I slightly wonder why hypothetical Blitzo-scum would risk engaging with me here

, although maybe he is more brazen than I'd expect. The hyperbole and exaggeration above are worth flagging, as is the piggy-backing off a suggestion by Cakez (which actually misrepped Cakez a bit, but was super convenient for skimming-scum-Blitzo). After I call him out for not really engaging with me, he actually makes a half-hearted cover in the last line, but is it believable? In his last post, he claimed near 100% certainty I was scum. It feels more like he was suddenly under pressure and to feign a solving-mindset, rather than town who genuinely has doubts.

Overall I think Blitzo is scum and I am content to elim there today.

I'm suddenly okay with the Battle Mage wagon.

[Akarin]

I took the same actions with Titus, I went in with a suspicion, and thought streamed as I read through. I have a strong scumlean on Titus.

This wasn't what you said at the time though.

Flea, what was your gut feeling on Titus before you reread her ISO and made your big wall?

Town Leaning.
I went in wanting to confirm my read and try and see what others were seeing that made her suspicious.

It did, in fact, feel like you went in looking for reasons to suspect Titus, as you just said.

[Akarin]

I don't see a reason to vote here

In the general no-lim sense? Or you don't think that looks like BM acting like they know Blitzo is town, starting to make a self-doubt post, and then spending the rest of the post on a 100% assumption of Blitzo-scum.

[Akarin]

Don't think it's particularly towny either but I asked to see how people who scumread Murder would interpret an open-ended post to see how good-faith the wagon was, since I didn't feel compelled by the reasons.

My reasons are still my original reasons: the agreeing with the logic but refusing to commit to it and seeming utterly unconcerned with the

results

despite being relatively enthusiastic with the theory.

I'm still catching up, curious how the Fluffy Fire Eevee wagon dissolved.

[Akarin]

I will

absolutely

vote No Elim over a townread. But I think if the case is plausible and people I townread are enough of the wagon I'd be happy to hammer a Null read.

[Akarin]

The former but also the reasons people are SRing BM here just seem to be BM being BM

I have 0 experience with BM and haven't read any games with them. Do you think the post that raised my hackles is also typical for them?

[Akarin]

but me want to finish my navigation task N1

me dont think i survive long enough to finish the admin. im in there for 2 nights.

I think taking the long task first has some merit. If you're with the group scum only have one shot that matters (N2) and they could very well have other priorities. Better to force the choice first I think.

[Akarin]

Haschel, could you explain for me again why you think you not claiming is worth giving scum a free NK on you?

Spoiler: the chart

Tasks
Player	Number of Tasks	Location 1	Location 2	Location 3
MURDERCAT	2	Reactor	Comms	N/A
Blitzo	2	Electrical	???	N/A
xRECKONERx	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
TheGoldenParadox	2	Security	Security/L2	Location 2
Flea The Magician	2	Storage	Security	N/A
Haschel Cedricson	2	Location 1	Location 2	N/A
DrippingGoofball	2	Electrical	Location 2	N/A
Battle Mage	1	Electrical	N/A	N/A
Gamma Emerald	1	Weapons	N/A	N/A
Alisae	2	Electrical	Admin	N/A
Titus	1	Electrical	N/A	N/A
OutWorldER	1	Cafeteria	N/A	N/A
Taly	2	Navigation	Admin	N/A
SirCakez	2	Reactor	Comms	N/A
Akarin	1	Cafeteria	Cafeteria	N/A
PookyTheMagicalBear	2	Navigation	Cafeteria	N/A
Bell	2	Navigation	Security	N/A

[Akarin]

I feel like Murdercat went from top wagon to not happening really fast and with no one actually defending them.

[Akarin]

I'm not sure which way around it was - maybe they scumread me because i scumread them?

I'm being voted by:

Blitzo, Gamma, DGB, Titus.

Of those, I'm neutral on Gamma, fairly neutral with a minor scumlean on DGB, scumreads on Blitzo and Titus.

Was it the drama that changed your read on Gamma or something else?

[Akarin]

Gamma, why the hell are you of all people on Titus?

And what's the case on Titus anyway?

[Akarin]

So other than people's gut reads, we have

Her reads in 580 are terrible, too. Misrepresentation of my game + Wildly overreacting to BM's 254 + Appeal to meta + 3 reads with literally no substance behind them. Unvote; Vote: Titus

(Ignoring Titus' mech mistake because I don't see how that's possibly scummy)

If I get mislimmed day one, there's little I can do. I have accepted that with this game state. I have an easy task if I slowly post day 2.

That being said, I do feel my wagon

(bell, Battle Mage, OutWorlder, Flea)

is scum driven though. Consensus is gathering around no elimination but yet people vote me for actually voting for it.

Here are my actual weak reads though.

HC is scum riding off town Reck's coattails to disrupt the game.

BM is scum for waiting on a consensus before voting me. His position on me is just hot garbage in his ISO. He appeared fine when it was just me and him going to electrical but sad when Ali was added to the mix. That would have three in electrical. Removing me makes two in electrical.

Taly and Flea are town because of their metas.

Pooky and Alisae are town.

Cakez is town.

What am I missing?

[Akarin]

I feel like most of the stall is just people all repeatedly saying that. It's more self-fulfilling than anything else.

[Akarin]

MURDERCAT
Battle Mage
No Elim
TGP
Titus

[Akarin]

Good ponit.
VOTE: MURDERCAT

[Akarin]

Ahem

Titus is on record as disliking d1, which as much as it initially struck me as confusing when she started saying that, it does make sense as why she'd not be very driven today. Titus just seems like a late-game powerhouse player

[Akarin]

Actually I really don't want to eliminate BattleMage either.

KITTY or No Elim.

[Akarin]

Why are you suddenly so bent out of shape about MCat?

Suddenly? Aren't I the original KITTY wannabe murderer?

And I wouldn't describe myself as bent out of shape so much as trying to settle how I feel about the possibilities currently available to me. I could also do Flea or Haschel if you want but I don't feel like those are happening at this point in the day.

why not BM?
I feel like people are fighting a lot of elims for reasons that aren't particularly clear and I think getting to the bottom of that is important.

You are overlooking something but I'm going to be coy with my reason right now. I'll explain if it looks like we're close to eliminating BM though.

[Akarin]

I really don't like how Gamma is constantly throwing my name down here.
He says I'm town but I keep showing up in his lim pool, and I have no wagon.
Gamma's play has raised question marks for me before though and wound up being town so maybe wait and see.

I think Gamma is being absurdly scummy in a way that I think indicates that Gamma is town.

[Akarin]

Titus wagon feels so bad though

[Akarin]

You are overlooking something but I'm going to be coy with my reason right now. I'll explain if it looks like we're close to eliminating BM though.

What the hell would you need to be coy about?

If I told you that it wouldn't be very coy now would it?

[Akarin]

Watch how I'm gonna just ignore that...

So there

are

scummy people on Titus, but it's not just that, it's that the "case" on her is pure gut, unexplained, or explained based on a post that is a really bad reason to eliminate Titus. Gamma's earlier point about how many people want to NK Titus un N1 if they're scum, the way the Titus wagon came up both times, the way the MURDERCAT wagon dissipated, and the way Titus handled that small aborted argument with me earlier in the Day.

I think Titus is town. I think the vague differences are explainable by the gamestate and Titus' feeling that No Elimination is optimal. I think her wagon is a ridiculous nothing that people are somehow suddenly enthusiastic about for the 2nd time today with everyone sort of vaguely consenting to it (including people not currently voting for her.)

[Akarin]

VOTE: Haschel

Let's mix it up.

[Akarin]

Talk about this?
Tbh if I’m not freaking out about a wagon stall I think through a circuitous reverse psychology argument it makes it scummier
Blitzo might understand what I mean but I don’t have full confidence he will

Well

I

don't understand what you're talking about, but anyway...

A ton of people soft defended MURDERKITTY. (Including some of my big townreads, so it's definitely not

all

scum, but it jus feels like there was a lot of it.) No matter how things got explained, no one ever really engaged on any argument for or against Murdercat, but a

lot

of people commented that there was no case despite people trying to clear that up.

[Akarin]

I'm not sure what else to say without looking back at things and I'm focussing on something else right now and then going to bed.

If it's something I can clarify from memory I will, but ask more clearly please?

[Akarin]

I guess I'd say Cakez, Taly, Pooky, and BM. And I'm townreading Taly and Pooky.

I guess maybe I contributed too, at least stealing away momentum, but the wagon was feeling like it was going too quickly when I checked in last night and I wanted to make sure it didn't hammer before I got time to come back to the game.

[Akarin]

Okay actually looking at the mod ISO the MCat wagon never dropped by more than 1 vote per VC
So now I’m quite curious where this allegation of it “dissolving” really even comes from?

I thought it went from 6 to 3? And really it's feels. It felt inevitable last night and unlikely tonight.

[Akarin]

TSQ being great at vote counts shouldn't impact this.

[Akarin]

So here's the thing about Haschel: even if he's town, he's basically committed to being a bonus kill for scum at some point this game anyway.

I think he's more than random chance to be scum, but he's basically a free miselim!

(The same is true of Reck, but I think Reck's town, so let's let scum take care of him.)

[Akarin]

Okay. Do you think Cakez+BM are scum? I could see it myself. Cakez seems dedicated to gaslighting me by painting my BM push as a personal gripe.

This feels pointless to put much thought into right now, but yes, I have Cakez+BM as a possible S-S. But I don't think it's definitely S-S, just I don't think their interaction ruled that out.

[Akarin]

Vote Haschel: if he's town it's no worse than a No Elim, and maybe he's scum.

[Akarin]

Tbh I could point out how it went from 6 to 3 just through VCs, but a big thing to realize is it wasn’t a straight descent, it wobbles around 6/5 a bit, and sticks at 4 for a little while

Yes, this game has way more VCs than most (which is great.)

[Akarin]

Also if you want me to start moving my vote around you have some convincing to do.
Being coy with why I shouldn't vote someone is not going to work here.

I want to write up a thing on Haschel instead, but I don't want to just leave you two hanging on too many things. Just the one thing.

I need to pry Gamma off me and just do the two things I wanted to do in this game before going to bed.

And I have my reasons. If I explained my reasons they would be irrelevant in this case.

[Akarin]

N1 Plan Draft 1.0

Cafeteria

Akarin
Outworlder
Pooky

Electrical

Titus
Battle Mage
DGB
Blitzo

Security

TGP
Bell
Flea

Admin

Alisae
Taly
A Very Sad Gamma?

Comms

Cakez
Murdercat

Objections?

Something like this is probably ideal right now, then Gamma doesn’t have to be alone on N2.
If DGB or Blitzo have either Admin or Comms it would be good to claim one of those and go there first instead.

If we kill Murdercat I think Cakez should probably play it safe and we'll just have others accompany him on N2 and N3.

Important to talk this out now.

[Akarin]

If we Eliminate Haschel we don't have to adjust the plan around the elimination.

In all seriousness I think that's a plus.

[Akarin]

I think I more than mentioned MURDERKITTY before, I thought I was one of two people actively pushing for a wagon there.

Why does it feel like I slip under everyone's radar so much?

[Akarin]

On planning: We should aim to be the most efficient tonight, front load the efficient parts and do the inefficient stuff later. So there are fewer total tasks to be claimed due to NKs.

[Akarin]

Okay so a bit worried I poisoned the well against myself by pointing out the mech benefit first, but it's actually a really good reason independent of anything else unless Haschel is a townread. That said, I've been lightly scumreading him for quite a while and here's why:

The first thing is his entrance to the game: He comes in ready to talk a bit of mech and only slightly uncooperative. 5 actual minutes later, the plan is "bad and doomed to failure." And Pooky is sus for suggesting it. When Alisae asked him why, all he'd say was"If you don't know then now is certainly not the time to tell you." As if there were some mech reason. Later when I asked him again why this was worth giving scum a free NK (after my big example) his extremely persuasive reason was just "Because it gives the scum waaaaaaay too much room to maneuver and at the moment they have a lot more information about how to use game mechanics to their advantage than we do." That's it. Despite not wanting to tell Alisae earlier, and all the reasoning I gave, his 5 minute turn-around is just that strong.

Also, his desire to not at least engage with the reasoning around the plan, even if he doesn't enjoy it, is extremely hypocritical given his stance on other things:

Oh well if they enjoy it then I guess that's okay no wait the opposite of that.

[Akarin]

Then there's how he pushed Titus. Bell was voting there, I had just accused her of trying to deliberately muddy the water around my talk, Blitzo had called Titus scum but not voted, Alisae had Titus in er top 3 scum.

I'm going to electrical. I'm doing my task.

Either a) scum kill me and leave less for y'all to do

Or b) scum kill elsewhere and I can get those tasks.

Agreeing to anything else seems stupid.

Option A has a big problem here. Can anybody else see what it is? (

Titus was wrong about the setup, why is this scummy? And why does Haschel understand this part of the setup but not the rest?)

Her reads in 580 are terrible, too. Misrepresentation of my game + Wildly overreacting to BM's 254 + Appeal to meta + 3 reads with literally no substance behind them.

Unvote; Vote: Titus

HC is scum riding off town Reck's coattails to disrupt the game.

It's a reasonable vote, but it doesn't seem like the strongest thing of all time. Despite that, Haschel treats her very hostilely after this point.

So his voting pattern both makes him transparently scum and can't make you 100% sure he's scummy. Do I have that correct?

Like this doesn't seem like a damning contradiction to me.

Then there's the whole WHY ARE YOU DODGING THE QUESTION interaction: After Titus votes BM, Haschel: "Oh no. You of all people do not get to just drop a vote with no reasoning and walk away. Why Battle Mage over the other wagons? Does the case against Murdercat make sense?" Murdercat was the other wagon here, and at this point Haschel was saying the BM wagon was bad and Murdercat was good. I actually agree with that at that point in the game, but when Titus says BM has been her main scumread for ages Haschel makes this big weird deal about Titus apparently "dodging the question" of whether the Murdercat wagon makes sense. When Flareon asks what it is, Haschel insists that no one but Titus should answer. Like he's expecting some useful scumhunting trap out of not telling Titus what the Murdercat case is. When she eventually catches up, she says post 1953she has no idea why the wagon is a thing[/url].

Like this level of aggression from that read, and these sort of "gotcha" questions don't seem like real scumhunting to me. Titus wasn't voting MURDERCAT, so what was even the point? It served to put a lot of pressure on Titus but???

[Akarin]

which post was this?

Spoiler: This one

Yeah I guess I only repeatedly pointed out where you didn't explain your reads.
Actually I just recalled the only other time we interacted and it was when I pointed out where you didn't explain your reads.
Then you continued not explaining your reads.
But I guess it's okay if you wanna keep pushing this angle where you're so transparent and clear when you haven't done even the slightest bit of reasoning.
Someone just pointed out how your reads are forming (RE - being based on whether someone scum/townreads you) and I think that's actually pretty accurate.
If there's something I missed definitely point it out because I'm just not seeing someone scumhunting tbh.

I slightly wonder why hypothetical Blitzo-scum would risk engaging with me here

, although maybe he is more brazen than I'd expect. The hyperbole and exaggeration above are worth flagging, as is the piggy-backing off a suggestion by Cakez (which actually misrepped Cakez a bit, but was super convenient for skimming-scum-Blitzo). After I call him out for not really engaging with me, he actually makes a half-hearted cover in the last line, but is it believable? In his last post, he claimed near 100% certainty I was scum. It feels more like he was suddenly under pressure and to feign a solving-mindset, rather than town who genuinely has doubts.

Overall I think Blitzo is scum and I am content to elim there today.

I'm suddenly okay with the Battle Mage wagon.

I don't see a reason to vote here

In the general no-lim sense? Or you don't think that looks like BM acting like they know Blitzo is town, starting to make a self-doubt post, and then spending the rest of the post on a 100% assumption of Blitzo-scum.

[Akarin]

how was I involved in this other than moving to no elim? (which I've been saying the whole game I wanted)

The timing of your move back to No Elim.

[Akarin]

To my knowledge, she was one of the first people to inject the Haschel/Reck TvS. She asserted doubt into Haschel's intentions WHILE saying Reck's opinions were "garbage" and still townreads Reck in the same vein. It feels like a TMI on Reck's alignment because this functionally provided doubt to Reck's thinking without having to push him as scum for the POV.

I mean, Reck's opinion

is

garbage, but I think he sounds like townier garbage too.

Why do you think it's TMI?

[Akarin]

Taly deserves a treat for voting with me. Give quick wagon swaps a chance!

[Akarin]

People pushed for me to defend Titus, then 100% ignored it

the "case" on her is pure gut, unexplained, or explained based on a post that is a really bad reason to eliminate Titus. Gamma's earlier point about how many people want to NK Titus on N1 if they're scum, the way the Titus wagon came up both times, the way the MURDERCAT wagon dissipated, and the way Titus handled that small aborted argument with me earlier in the Day.

I think Titus is town. I think the vague differences are explainable by the gamestate and Titus' feeling that No Elimination is optimal. I think her wagon is a ridiculous nothing that people are somehow suddenly enthusiastic about for the 2nd time today with everyone sort of vaguely consenting to it (including people not currently voting for her.)

If y'all are gonna vote Titus, could you address some of this?

[Akarin]

HC seems .. unlikely at this point

What part of my case do you think is obviously bad?

[Akarin]

in fairness, this fails to engage with the reason I have been voting Titus. *shrug*

Could you restate your reasons then?

[Akarin]

I'm just referencing the number of votes needed compared to e.g. Titus (or me)

It's a 2 vote difference. Don't make it sound impossible.

[Akarin]

Vote Haschel: if he's town it's no worse than a No Elim, and maybe he's scum.

[Akarin]

Lead wagon, woooooooooooo

[Akarin]

i dont understand this shade. HC has probably been one of the better players today. Is there some personal issue between you both?

Shade? That's an interesting way of putting it.

[Akarin]

i dont understand this shade. HC has probably been one of the better players today. Is there some personal issue between you both?

Re-reading his ISO, where he mostly picks holes in Titus, who you are cheerleading for... I'm not that excited about flipping him

I take it you didn't read 2186 or 2187?

And the other thing is a mechanical reason: Haschel has committed to being a bonus NK this game if he's town. We lose nothing by miseliminating him, but if he's scum we're going to have to spend a day voting to flip him at some point and there's benefit to doing it now.

Also, are you somehow unclear of my feelings on the Titus wagon?

[Akarin]

I like this BM post.

What did you like about it?

[Akarin]

Note to self to see if this was resolved, and ask about it if not.

It wasn't, but ask me later on? It's not relevant right now.

I've still got the townread on TGP, but it's not like if I die it's such a strong reason that everyone should sheep me from the grave (like that'd ever happen anyway.)

[Akarin]

Who is HC scum with? BM seems like the only option

You've ruled out all 15 other people as potential scum partners?

[Akarin]

who wants to go to weapons with me
I feel like my task gets harder as the game goes on and more pages crop up

The problem is, no one else has claimed weapons and we really need to maximize the total number of tasks we get done on N1.

If other people have weapons and haven't claimed it, if they could do it now that'd be great.

But barring that I seriously think you're better off just being the 3rd to someone's pair so there's only 1 pair. And I think Alisae and Taly in Security is the better choice of those (they're more likely to be the NK

anyway

.

If I can make a big post with links to other posts that helps you logistically on later days, I will.

[Akarin]

This is how we potentially end up with 3 dead though.

Who are you assuming ignores the plan?

If everyone but Reck follows it (because Haschel is dead), if Reck is scum he can't get a bonus kill on anyone, and if Reck is town then someone has to be unaccounted for in their neighborhood.

So scum can't possibly get 2 NKs.

[Akarin]

i dont understand this shade. HC has probably been one of the better players today. Is there some personal issue between you both?

Re-reading his ISO, where he mostly picks holes in Titus, who you are cheerleading for... I'm not that excited about flipping him

I take it you didn't read 2186 or 2187?

And the other thing is a mechanical reason: Haschel has committed to being a bonus NK this game if he's town. We lose nothing by miseliminating him, but if he's scum we're going to have to spend a day voting to flip him at some point and there's benefit to doing it now.

Also, are you somehow unclear of my feelings on the Titus wagon?

blimey is Akarin normally this abrasive and condescending?

So not to be condescending, but any actual response?

And for the record, I want to like Haschel as a person. We haven't talked a lot, but we're teammates in Only Connect.

[Akarin]

Could people either disagree with this or try being less confused please?

N1 Plan Draft 1.0

Cafeteria

Akarin
Outworlder
Pooky

Electrical

Titus
Battle Mage
DGB
Blitzo

Security

TGP
Bell
Flea

Admin

Alisae
Taly
A Very Sad Gamma?

Comms

Cakez
Murdercat

If DGB or Blitzo have either Admin or Comms it would be good to claim one of those and go there first instead.

[Akarin]

You are discounting the possibility of shenanigans and tomfoolery by the scum team, which I am still expecting.

So you're back to arguing that TSQ designed the setup so the neat part about it is irrelevant?

[Akarin]

Akarin - so your case on Haschel is:

1. You were salty he ignored a case you made
2. He attacked Titus who you are defending without good reason
3. He said he would go to a room alone, which risks him dying if town. Which effectively removes the need to waste an elim on him now. If he's still alive later, after gallavanting on his own, we would be better off dealing with him then.

It's gonna be a hard No from me.

Holy misrep, Batman

[Akarin]

Why shouldn't Gamma be with me and cakez? Aren't I sketchier?
(I'm afraid of being framed somehow for cake death)

If there's no shenanigans it doesn't matter, but if there are, frankly I'd rather have one of you or Cakez dead than Taly or Alisae.

How do you think the framing could work in this scenario anyway?

[Akarin]

Also I don't know if Cake has a preference for reactor or comms post restriction, but if we have the same tasks I think reactor is easier. Also reactor sabotage is a thing so it might be better if we are there??

Given the mechanics of the game, wouldn't we have to use the choosing stage to react to sabotages?

In which case it makes more sense to put off important sabotages until later nights if possible.

[Akarin]

I would rather do Reactor if that fits with the plan

The only reason it matters is that I'm pretty sure sabotages will need people going to Reactor on later nights

anyway

and that's less likely to be true of comms.

[Akarin]

Like if you do Reactor first, then on another night if there's a Reactor sabotage, you two have to do Comms instead of being with the other people going to Reactor, makes pathing harder. Based on the game I'm assuming Comms sabotage will be less important, but who knows, maybe it screws with neighborhoods and that's worse in this game than in Among Us. So I'm not married to the idea.

Here's why I think sabotages will effect the next night though:

The second phase is the choice phase, where each player in the game will choose a room on the ship to go to. Other role based choices will be made in this phase as well instead of during the night phase. The third phase is a night phase where players will be allowed to view and post in their chosen room's private topic.

[Akarin]

If there's a sabotage that requires 1 person to go somewhere, I think Titus and Gamma should do it

(for 3 groups of 2, if scum double kill a non-Reck, then we're at a coinflip, which isn't so bad)

If there's a sabotage that requires going to 2 different places and people aren't already at one (i.e. Admin), I think Titus and Gamma should go to the 1st one, and Taly and Alisae should go to the 2nd one.

[Akarin]

We most importantly just need to be really clear on where we're all going to be so when someone goes "oh, I didn't think we had a plan so I just went to Shields" we can yeet them out the airlock with no questions asked.

But I sat down last night and I don't think there's a way to get more total tasks accomplished N1 than what I proposed. Sorry that leaves you in a boring spot, Gamma.

But yeah, I think more people is probably better for safety, and if y'all were scum, who would you rather NK here? Taly/Alisae or Murdercat/Cakez?

[Akarin]

i believe you believe your own case. Clearly, on it's merits, I don't. I don't know what more you want from me...

I want an honest attempt at reading what my reasoning is rather than what you did.

Do you agree with the night plan at least?

[Akarin]

So I still don't see

any

actual good reasoning for a Titus vote.

And I really don't like Haschel's response to me, it's a lot of sound and fury and condescension but doesn't really address anything.