The Root of Toxicity in Mafia Games

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Counter point, mafia can be without toxicity if the game is played by people who respect each other more than they want to one-up each other.

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I am only nice to people

That bad decision wouldn't have been made if Alisae and Ank hadn't agreed to end night 6 minutes after it started.

shut up

literally no one cares about what you have to say

Alisae was being fascetious.
p sure they're known as one of the most

nvm everyone already knows

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<3

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psst
no one tell him

too late

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disagree

the toxicity in league comes from immaturity certainly given that toxicity actively hinders your ability to win games

the toxicity in mafia is a result of a game where there are advantages to being toxic.

implying there is no immaturity in mafia

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Vig is a brilliant antitoxicity role.
A player can become very angry about getting misvigged.

But you've hidden them away in the dead thread, now.

this sounds like an argument for policy lynches

hello
can i talk to you about one of the best (and most commonly ignored/rejected) aspects of mafia, policy lynches?

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i think policy lynches will always have their place

i think people reject them in theory but i think a lot of people would like them if they tried just a little bit

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I've seen policy lynches for lurkers, I don't think I've ever seen a policy lynch for a toxic player in all my years.
I can't understand the logic in that. Toxicity doesn't actually hurt town win % that much. If a player is so toxic that you would want to lynch them even if they were Innocent Child, then you should probably ask the mod to force replace them, and if you can't manage that then well like you would have to be force replaced for playing against wincon apparently you want to lynch the IC.

I'm guessing the main point of disagreement is "toxicity doesn't actually hurt town win % that much".
It sucks an egg, but I think it doesn't actually lose the game for town. A highly inactive game is far harder for town to win than a toxic one.

that is a point of disagreement

especially because i think a lot of players are intentionally toxic because they know it comes off as towny - and they use that to hide that they're scum

Toxic play in mafia gets reinforced with townreads, sheeping, and removed pressure and that makes the behavior more likely to recur

Toxic play in league is only reinforced internally rather than externally

oh i see what you mean yeah

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I at least agree with the dirtier play part of the last comment, probably the rest, too.

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I don't agree but I think that my ideal of what the limits should be includes stuff that you aren't even considering

this is at nancy?

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(an example of something I think should be banned is threats of blacklist in mafia games. Blacklisting someone outside of game should be fine but using it as a tool to beat people with should not.)

Threatening people with a lot of things is p toxic, IMO. It also doesn't necessarily make sense - if someone doesn't wanna stop doing something just because you say stop, why would they want to do it to avoid being on your black list?

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oh that's a different kind of threat than I considered
but also threatening someone cuz you think they're scum is extra dumb

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wait i understand

you're saying someone might threaten a player with a blacklist because the player thinks taht someone is scum. got it

OMGUS blacklist threat
nice

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oh, yeah i get it..
tbh i agree w/ p much everything you're saying

but also i don' tknow how to fix it from a moderator standpoint

probably at least partially because i'm not a mod
so my only option is to try to fix it from player standpoint -> policy lynch

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(an example of something I think should be banned is threats of blacklist in mafia games. Blacklisting someone outside of game should be fine but using it as a tool to beat people with should not.)

Threatening people with a lot of things is p toxic, IMO. It also doesn't necessarily make sense - if someone doesn't wanna stop doing something just because you say stop, why would they want to do it to avoid being on your black list?

People might do it for a cheap townread and it usually is done by town but scum!Maria did that to RC in MG. It might be hard to totally regulate that though.

lol
wait maria did taht

never really talked to/played with her, but i always got the impression she was a nice and at least somewhat reasonable person

wow that's like a next level shitty thing to do, i would expect shit like that from like TSE or other players i've encountered recently, but definitely not a skittle , lol

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i think people ahve called themselves obvtown in a pretty toxic / unaware way before

but i think taht it's not toxic by definition

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oh she blacklisted rc?

i think things like that should be held until after the game in general - at elast i try to do that, your feelings are less likely to make you make stupid and rash decisions that way, but i understand more if she just blacklisted rc on the spot

that's still kinda shitty tho

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I don't understand why people call themselves obvtown

I would be down to policy lynch everyone who calls themselves obvtown

If you are truly obvtown

Why would you need to comment upon that, it should be unnecessary

Like those radio ads where they are selling something and they say they are absolutely certain they do not have enough inventory for all the people who will call to order the product

just saying
policy lynches aren't just for toxicity
they're for a lot of things!

super useful items

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I don't understand why people call themselves obvtown

I would be down to policy lynch everyone who calls themselves obvtown

If you are truly obvtown

Why would you need to comment upon that, it should be unnecessary

Like those radio ads where they are selling something and they say they are absolutely certain they do not have enough inventory for all the people who will call to order the product

Because sometimes it’s actually necessary to point that out, that’s why.

if it is

you're not obvtown

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I don't understand why people call themselves obvtown

I would be down to policy lynch everyone who calls themselves obvtown

If you are truly obvtown

Why would you need to comment upon that, it should be unnecessary

Like those radio ads where they are selling something and they say they are absolutely certain they do not have enough inventory for all the people who will call to order the product

Because sometimes it’s actually necessary to point that out, that’s why.

if it is

you're not obvtown

Well, like in Newsroom for example, I think I was bleeding obvtown in that but not everyone could see it, so I had to keep pointing that out until they finally listened, which they eventually did.

that's not how that works at all lol

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No. My townread accuracy rate is actually pretty high - higher than average in fact. That’s why I tend to prefer townblocking to scumhunting early game.

an orphan dies every time someone uses this fallacy

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It's not above average vs not above average

If more than 1/10 of your townreads are scum your townreads are worthless

That is clearly not the case with me, thankfully.

you literally just said that it was
w/ volpe / SS

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i want a wikipedia page w/ common mafia fallacies

i'd have it full in no time

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No. My townread accuracy rate is actually pretty high - higher than average in fact. That’s why I tend to prefer townblocking to scumhunting early game.

an orphan dies every time someone uses this fallacy

What “fallacy”?

"town read rate higher than scum read rate"
"town read rate higher than average"
"town read rate really high!"

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No. My townread accuracy rate is actually pretty high - higher than average in fact. That’s why I tend to prefer townblocking to scumhunting early game.

an orphan dies every time someone uses this fallacy

What “fallacy”?

You think townblocking can’t be a valuable tool? Why not? I’m far better at correctly identifying town than scum, especially in early game.

So is a random number generator.

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So is a player that calls everyone town all game.

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No. My townread accuracy rate is actually pretty high - higher than average in fact. That’s why I tend to prefer townblocking to scumhunting early game.

an orphan dies every time someone uses this fallacy

What “fallacy”?

You think townblocking can’t be a valuable tool? Why not? I’m far better at correctly identifying town than scum, especially in early game.

So is a random number generator.

random number generator is kinda bad no

better just to mark the entire plist as town

RNG will still be right on town more than scum, but yeah marking entire list as town is better, that's what I meant, thanks.

So is a player that calls everyone town all game.

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Just FTR the times I'm criticizing ND for aren't the same as saying she's always bad or is bad in general, just that conventional wisdom on 'townreads' is wrong

I don’t make my reads by using conventional wisdom, that’s why they tend to be in general, better than average.

Do you mean better than average as in "better than number of scum divided by total number of players", or better than average as in you think you are better than most other players?

That isn’t what I said. I said better than “average”, which /= “better than most”.

I think I look for things that most people ignore so yes, I do trust my reads for those reasons.

pops: "do you read town better than you read scum or do you read town better than most other town players read town?"
Nancy: "no."

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Better than average means nothing, it's either 90-95% accuracy on your townreads or not. It's easy to fall into "I'm good at townreading people", when default value is 75% considering scum : town ratio on average is 3 : 1

Agree to disagree on that. I’d say closer to 75% but higher on certain players. I do better when I can use meta because then you don’t wrongly read playstyle.

he's stating a fact

you can't just disagree with a fact because you don't like it lol

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That isn’t what I said. I said my reads are better than “average” = better then many.

I don’t know why you’re trying to split hairs here with semantics?

i'm not splitting hairs with semantics

she didn't ask you a yes or no question

but you answered

witha "no"

lol

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No, I answered with better than average, which is also many. Saying most would be inaccurate and arrogant, while better than average/many is both accurate and not arrogant.

I’m not going to lie and deny the truth, I 100% stand by this.

...

whatever nancy

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No, I answered with better than average, which is also many. Saying most would be inaccurate and arrogant, while better than average/many is both accurate and not arrogant.

I’m not going to lie and deny the truth, I 100% stand by this.

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whatever nancy

You’re misinterpreting my post like I said something I didn’t, so I’m just clarifying that.

no

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No, I answered with better than average, which is also many. Saying most would be inaccurate and arrogant, while better than average/many is both accurate and not arrogant.

I’m not going to lie and deny the truth, I 100% stand by this.

...

whatever nancy

You’re misinterpreting my post like I said something I didn’t, so I’m just clarifying that.

no

Yes.

no, nancy, you misinterpreted something someone else said

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Getting scumread by town as town isn't toxicity

+1

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I think ranked mafia would be ridiculously difficult to pull off accurately given how often the effectiveness of a play style is determined by the hivemind

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I liked the BoP format. Perhaps with shorter days.

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I don't think it's generally hard to determine who is and isn't competent at mafia if you're not trying to determine who is better between players of similar skill levels.

I'd agree that discernment of capability is relatively trinary, at least as far as I'm concerned.

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Hypothesis: toxicity increases exponentially when the response to not knowing how to handle someone is defaulting to a SR instead of a TR/sort later mentality

I did this in the game you modded

I never played with skitter or pops before and I didnt find they play style to radiate town anywhere near as much as everyone else in the thread so I was hella confused and it really drove me to scum read skitter in particular which probably came across toxically (or at least I felt it did) (hurrah for making up words!)

In the end it turned out that penguin fake claim was just causing friction amongst the town and because I wanted to deal with that weird roles by lynching a PR earlier than anyone else - that was probably one of the root causes of that episode

So sorry pops and skitter:D

Hypothesis, there are toxic players, and self-aware players concerned they are being toxic, and no overlap between these two groups.

p sure i am both toxic and self-aware of this

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Why can't mafia be like Knives Out, where

you think it's toxic but it actually isn't

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constipation is not fun

Some people like hard things in their butts