newbie 1891: people with cool hair (game over!!!)

[Chara]

tomorrow when i have more time i'll look at all of your play as a whole, Qubu, but to give you some things i remember now:
you did a good job obvtowning, first of all.
i think you played well so there isn't anything specific i would tell you to improve on! and this is coming from the scum you utterly decimated. catching me at the end of day 1 was a good call, as well. my resistance to hammer was entirely scum self-consciousness.
and copping me to be sure was a good idea as schadd said.

you were only really on the wrong track with Cobbler, but it happens. i don't really know if you "went wrong" anywhere with that.

[schadd_]

If anyone besides qubu teacher wants individual advice I'll pop in

I would like some more feedback

just from memory i think you have a hard time distinguishing goofy/different town from scum. it's a really good habit, if you're scumreading a post (and especially!!! if it's somebody you are already scumreading or think you have an innate tendency to scumread) to ask yourself: have i seen town do this before? can i think of a reason town would do this? some examples that i looked back for:

Keep in mind it’s a newbie game though. Newbies I think are more excited when they have a “real” role.

Qubu: not sure I get what you’re saying, you saying you think scum would be mor excited than VT to play but saying you disagree with me doesn’t mesh. I said I don’t think a VT would be that excited, not VT includes PR or scum.

I get the impression that you are trying to paint me as scummy for not being super active as a poster, but are trying to do so without using a direct attack – more a subtle insinuation that you don’t have to defend but just plant. It bothers me. I can’t explain it more than that. It’s a semantics issue my brain is really tickled by throughout all your posts but nothing I can pin down directly.

I don’t like the imply meta that antsy people must be town gets hunt a town read from you. The guy posted twice. This is similar to my issue with Chara. If you apply your under the radar bit to hunt, oh boy has he been under the radar since then.

I've never stated a TR on Hunt.
I havn't said anything about your activity. Quote me if you see that I have, but I just reread and have no mentioned it.
I didn't say antsy people are town. I said energetic posters are generally not VT in a newbie game as newbies.
Again, do not misrepresent what I say to support your "gut" that my "tone" is off. Use quotes or pull posts. I am now SR you for this continued misrepresentation in effort to join what's been seen as

the

wagon.

i think the way a lot of people's reads generate as town is that gut precedes anything they say - one either reads a post or has a sensation develop after reading a series of posts and thinking about them and then you try to find and explain what is giving that sensation. for the most part i think things that sound like "misrepresentation" are either a non-indicative trait or actively a town trait - it will always, forever be the case that people will attack scumreads that seem weakly founded and it is endlessly tempting for town to push people based on objective things like "i didn't say what you claim i did"; thus, a very very easy and common thing that scum does is make sure all their arguments are well-founded and inoffensive.

recall rc's note about how scum is often in the geminis and charas who seem like they are doing more than they are - if you push on somebody and put yourself out there, the people you are pushing tend to want to scumread you on like a basic psychological level and it's such a common trait, especially among people that don't actively enjoy playing scum, to avoid pushing people, especially without a very easily digestible and objective reason.

to form a model of how to find town in somebody misrepresenting: i have not been rereading games lately and i find that when i do it taints the way i look at the game since i am often looking for something specific and thus not reading the game naturally. the way i explain reads as town (the somewhat few times i do so) are based on my memory of how the person is playing and a synthesis of what gives me bad sensations about them - if i tried to iterate through all their posts and find exactly what gave me that impression, not only would i feel like i'm not reading in good faith (since i am trying to find things in support of an argument i've already thought out) it would also just be a lot of work and i have lost interest in doing that after like 50 games. a lot of people play the same way i think.

Not sure I’ve seen this deadline reaction from Alonzo before. Reads almost desperate trying to get any other lynch through. Though admittedly I could be tunneling. Still where in most comfortable voting.

some people are just like this. like it is in accordance with a town wincon to push someone other than yourself, and in theory it is a pro-town play to continue trying to find the most likely wolf even if you are getting pushed but at the same time people don't like being lynched and can e.g. want to stay in the game, can be affected by confirmation bias in favor of pushing a competing wagon, etc. simultaneously, it is a pretty common thing for scum to try to put up an appearance of disinterest in their wagon and in fact it doesn't require finesse to do so - you just do something else and hope people notice.

After mulling it over, while chara’s defense of nonny seems too obvious, it also could be understandable; if nonny is scum, she’s the roleblocker.

And if scum have a roleblocker they cannot afford to lose them day one.

I’d also rather fight scum-LE in lylo than scum-nonny.

Intent to hammer, but I also want Qubu’s thoughts. He did after all catch Chara.

Why? Why is scum!LE a better option in lylo?
Bolding added for emphasis. May be semantics but the change is odd. You say I'm the RB because Chara tried to defer the wagon from me day 1. But also say

if

scum has an RB. Qubu has already said he was rb'd. Are you trying to pretend you don't know which set up we are in?

that just, like, doesn't ever happen. similar to the first big set of paragraphs, it's really easy and common to comb over your wording to make sure you're not saying anything or using any wording that might make somebody want to stir up a ruckus. on the other hand, town literally just borgets things all the time (see me forgetting an entire tracker claim) and words things in weird or suspicious ways because they're just typing stuff and clicking post

Chara’s last 3 posts look more like talking themself into the hammer. Feels slightly off but not sure in which direction. Could be just showing fake hesitation or it could be legit concern.

what feels like happened to me here is that you recognized that those last three posts were like ..... weird and wrong somehow and there was an obvious scum reason to have a weird and wrong set of posts (i.e., trying to hammer in a way that seemed natural) but you maybe thought through it a bit much. like i think you had a good eye for an unnatural set of posts but couldn't think of a way to describe how they were unnatural and came to the conclusion it could go either way.

i think 294, 310 were really town and rc noticed that as well. you have a good way of articulating how the gamestate makes you feel and describing implications of the fact that you're town and with good players that is makes it really easy for people to townread you.

[schadd_]

there is a meta element of that post in that i didn't proofread any of it and some of the things i said may in fact be trivially wrong

[schadd_]

dental thing: theoretically the correct cop play is to find the result that gives you the most information on a player rather than the most likely guilty result. for example, if somebody is already like consensus scum and is very likely going to be lynch no matter what you do, you probably shouldn't bother investigating them. so like in theory if you were very sure chara was scum and were willing to push it whether you had a result or not, then a different check would have been better. in practice though this result won the game and it's generally just a good mindset that your most confident read is still going to be worth confirming with an investigative since very few people can claim to have like more than a 75% scumread on a slot reliably in my experi

I thought about this, but I did the mislynch math and figured as a first game I didn't want to trust my gut too much on an IC that seemed in a good place to wiggle about. I wasn't confident I could make a convincing case on Chara as a newbie so I wanted to be sure.

IMO, Nonny wasn't going to made endgame and that was my first choice for investigation. That was a lynch that was I just didn't see not happening at some point.

yup, i think you played it perfectly good.

[schadd_]

I definitely do look how people reacted to his entrance on Chara

I think that Chara not being copped was town lose or close game as opposed to the solid win that happened.

yea i also think so in case that was unclear

[schadd_]

addendum to 701: i didnt say all this to claim that low-explanation is an ideal way of playing, and i think i accidentally like endorsed it with my comment on 493. the very very best townplayers are those who can convince people in addition to forming good reads and if you are able to isolate exactly what is a scummy aspect of somebody's play then that is a good thing. however, a lot of people don't really put forth effort to do that (hi! nice to meet you, i'm schadd) and also always putting forth effort to try to do that doesn't necessarily make your reads more accurate - so i suppose the ultimate note is that if something seems scummy to you and you don't see a way to explain it that's fine and you often shouldn't try to

[schadd_]

like a game where you are reading all of it and thinking about stuff but you only make a few cases or only go in-depth for a few townreads that all turn out to be dead-on is really satisfying

[RadiantCowbells]

I locktowned her after 294

[Light Ethos]

Eh, I did my best. That WIFOM was difficult for me to decipher, and I made the wrong call. I made a lot of second guess posts about nonny that I deleted without posting.

As far as why I didn't just outright claim, I didn't know what Cobbler would do if I just claimed at the start of the day. The only way I thought they had a chance was if it was a final 3 of me, Cobbler, and someone unconfirmed. I thought Cobbler would vote me in LyLo, and he confirmed it.

I've come across the opinion in multiple threads that RC is a fearsome town player. He did a great job of reading the game here. That cannot be understated. I still have a bad taste in my mouth about my first game on site though.

[schadd_]

I locktowned her after 294

i remember this yeafh

[schadd_]

did u like my paragraphs? :)

[RadiantCowbells]

LE I didn't vote you in the hat game because of anything you did

I voted you because I scumread NMs slot but literally no one else did

[RadiantCowbells]

I did!

[Light Ethos]

Rebuff how? There is no case to rebuke.

well, part of me hopes you flip green and I can look like an idiot and you can lol and say I told you so..

But I gotta know if ma feels was forealz.

*shrug* you aren’t the only one building the game around this pretense that I’m scum.

When I do flip you all get to rethink the game fully. Oddly at this point I want to see the reaction to my flip since currently feel like I’m talking into a void.

I took note of this comment. From my perspective it was hard to sort between a slot that was absent for most of the game and nonny's slot that drove a mislynch and then shaded the known scum player with no follow up. That post was one that made me hesitate in lynching her though. You were right.

[schadd_]

LE I didn't vote you in the hat game because of anything you did

I voted you because I scumread NMs slot but literally no one else did

wrong game i think

I did!

:) :) :)

[RadiantCowbells]

Like from my point of view

If I disagree with the rest of the game I'm generally right

But most people who get brought to lylo with reads differing from the general consensus are brought for a reason.

Amusingly that's given me 3 losses in newbies and no wins but I want to set the right precedent for others.

[RadiantCowbells]

All of this is @LE he knows that I'm saying

[nonny]

Okay. I struggle with confidence in my reads. I feel like it’s gotten worse not better, also get swayed too easily and then doubt everything >.> thanks for the feedback schadd. 294 was where I kind of stopped trying/caring. I’m a total perfectionist in reali life and it effects game I think lol

[Cobblerfone]

tomorrow when i have more time i'll look at all of your play as a whole, Qubu, but to give you some things i remember now:
you did a good job obvtowning, first of all.
i think you played well so there isn't anything specific i would tell you to improve on! and this is coming from the scum you utterly decimated. catching me at the end of day 1 was a good call, as well. my resistance to hammer was entirely scum self-consciousness.
and copping me to be sure was a good idea as schadd said.

you were only really on the wrong track with Cobbler, but it happens. i don't really know if you "went wrong" anywhere with that.

To be fair I'm usually at least mildly scumread by half the players early in the game. I'm rarely ever lynched as town though, so I've seen no reason to actively change how I present myself as a town-player. I sometimes get nightkilled if the game goes on long enough though.

did u like my paragraphs?

I found them useful for myself as well.

I'm still not very happy with my scum-reading ability. My town-reading seemed to have been adequate however (not that that's hard statistically). I need to learn to only really trust my townreads and not push my scumreads so hard (unless I'm absolutely certain).

[Qubu]

Scum thread? =)

[schadd_]

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=77340 yup soryr

[Irrelephant11]

the coolest hair

[teacher]

Sorry Ive been absentee. FWIW, if you are still reading this Qubu, I thought you played excellent. My one suggestion is that I dont think you needed to out your guilty as early -- staying committed to a read throughout a longer day is a signal of a PR at play, and I had indicated flexibility to go to that slot so it could easily have become a compromise. Especially given that, at that point, you could not know whether we were in column C with only you as a PR, I think just sticking to your guns might have been the better option.

FWIW, my entry was me trying to provide PR cover with the spoilered teacher line and feigning confidence in my read. I was really sold on it -- both through the stats thing and my read of 300. The crow is indeed delicious. In my defense, the read was right that RH/LE was non-VT because of the defensiveness. I just went to scum! rather than PR! because I misread the tone of 300, and the slowness of a wagon to develop there. That misread was the source of my misread on Gemini too -- I should have read the scum replaceouts mechanically.

[PenguinPower]