so true bestieIn post 1851, Cephrir wrote: I changed my mind I don't look like fire's partner and you're a noob if you go that path
Open 878: Scarfolk Council | The End
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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this post would be hilarious in hindsight if it's a 2 person scum team with sheep and aurealIn post 1455, fireisredsir wrote: yea i mean if you're town then i will be less confident in my ability to read you and ill also feel pretty bad for replacing in here and then getting you killed
and if you're town then sheep and aureal would probably be the first places im looking but id also be worried bc i would not really have a clue who the third would be-
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i lied again i got distracted looking at sheep
kinda thought going in that i was gonna scumread him more but im not as sure of that, some of the mid day 1 posting swayed me a bit. but i think if he is wolf he is just aiming for playing a super pure game where he is generally on the right side of things and is just kinda chilling to set up for endgame. which is a hard wolfgame to find. i think his posting today hasn't been as pure though, and some of the stuff surrounding skitter maybe
part of me does just want to sheep skitter on sheep idk. i wish she was still here. whos idea was it to kill her. not mine-
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the team mafia large theme really was a super clean game from scum, kinda sad it was the only one i didn't follow at all as it was going-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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hmm
was really feeling like dunn's scumgame in that was recognizable until i got to endgame where he flipped a switch and started playing more aggressively and confidently and it was v effective, i would have been fooled by it probably-
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Spoiler: from another game
legendary post-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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i mean im not scum-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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btw i finished dunn meta refresher course and i actually really think he's town here
like a lot more confident than i thought i was
i was actually thinking that team mafia would show me his scumrange was wider than i thought it was bc i heard he played a good game. and he did. but the mindset and approach is still really different than how he's approaching this game, and how he approaches his town games, imo-
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im like
[aisa ceph dunn]
[mena implosion]
gap
[egix]
[aureal sheep]-
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ceph could fool me and id willingly let him so maybe he belongs in the bracket below that but i do think he feels town here pretty strongly-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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a big part of looking like pure innocent town is avoiding letting tmi influence your play
the enchant elim was what the majority of town wanted
and in d1 and most of d2 his takes were mostly reasonable and towny and his strongest townreads were good choices for being town.
as i pointed out i don't think he played as pure around skitter, i think that's one of the places where if he is scum, he let scum agenda influence his play more than other times-
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i feel like you misunderstood the point of my post?
i was not saying "sheep is scum bc he did this"
i was saying "if sheep is scum, he was doing this. which looks towny, and makes it hard to judge if he's scum or not"
it wasn't really a significant point i was just thinking out loud-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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i don't understand why this is something you would pick to be combative about-
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lol???In post 1913, Aureal wrote: So you are trying to say that being on a bad elimination without reasons of your own is towny?
lmao???-
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thread consensus was to lim enchant i don't think anyone was opposed to it besides andante iircIn post 1914, Aureal wrote: And please don't avoid the question about why you assert that the majority of town wanted Enchant. Two flipped town were there plus Enchant himself.-
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as scum he forces himself to talk about things that he doesn't really care about and as town he just talks about things that he cares about. i think it's noticeable when he's pushing himself to make a postIn post 1918, sheepsaysmeep wrote: aureal is wolfy but I still think dunn is very wolf and am basically tunneled on dunn/fire until a flip
fire's post about meta was not convincing. I looked through dunn wolfgames, and my conclusion was basically "he has an insanely wide wolfrange so I dont think I will be able to give him meta points in this game," rather than "that game felt different than this game so he's villa". fire if ur v and want to convince me I'd probably want u to talk about why his past villa games and wolf games are noticeably different and then this looks like the first set, rather than mainly based on 1 game. The one line I can see here is that dunn seemed more interested in the wolf games I opened, and extreme refusal to put effort into this game could actually be town for some people with meta like that + explain some of the things I find wolfy lol. but I dont love that read because it still feels like theres some level of investment there that he pretends isnt there, as opposed to another half of the playerlist noping out and being like "I hate this game"
in both cases sometimes depending on the game he cares about more things or less things and activity can reflect that. and sometimes there's things he cares about as both alignments, like how activity isn't AI for him despite many people claiming it is
he's usually a bit cleaner as scum, making sure to justify progressions and show his work when developing a read on someone, while as town he doesn't really feel as much pressure to do that. i think his attitude also tends to come through a lot more as town, as scum there's definitely a bit of a wall up, and any arguments feel a little disengaged and precise
he's not an easy read bc i think he always has a bit of that wall up as either alignment, and isn't super forthcoming with his thoughts. but i think once you get a feel for the style of how he approaches things, you can see it. on a surface level the posting can look fairly similar but you have to look deeper for the intent behind the posts-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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also it wasn't based on one game-
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the team mafia game was just one i wanted to read bc i hadn't read it yet and i heard someone mention that he played to his town meta well in it so i wanted to see how true that was-
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i thoroughly read through that one + legends of the business company, and reread invictus and spring fling
ive also read other dunn meta at other points when trying to read him-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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also my posting about it wasn't intended to justify the read or convince anyone of anything, i was just updating where my head was at, so idk its a little weird to respond to it with "im not convinced by this"-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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if any single other person in the game thinks my worldview doesn't make sense or that you're making any sort of reasonable or coherent point here then i will answer, otherwise i don't think that deserves a response lolIn post 1926, Aureal wrote:In post 1916, fireisredsir wrote:
lol???In post 1913, Aureal wrote: So you are trying to say that being on a bad elimination without reasons of your own is towny?
lmao???
That's not an answer so I'm going to assume you're just word salading some nonsense and can't answer because you don't actually have a worldview that makes any sense.-
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me reading into dunn meta was something that i had been planning to do for a while for the purposes of trying to help me sort himIn post 1927, sheepsaysmeep wrote:
ur meta read?In post 1925, fireisredsir wrote: also my posting about it wasn't intended to justify the read or convince anyone of anything, i was just updating where my head was at, so idk its a little weird to respond to it with "im not convinced by this"
I thought he was definitely wolf and then u said u thought he was definitely villager
what else is the purpose of reads than to convince me there
it didn't have anything to do with you-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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i guess thats maybe a slightly towny thought process to think that my goal there would be to convince you of dunn being town but idk it's still weird-
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if i had been attempting to convince you dunn was town i would be arguing against the points you were making or like at least making points of my own
i didn't really care about the points you were making idk sorry-
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idk i think it's just kinda on a basic level hard for me to believe that anyone does (or even should) care about what i think or have to say lol
so i don't usually go all "hey im right and you all have to listen to me bc xyz!!"
especially when the people that i would care most about convincing want me dead. i find those kind of conversations to be really difficult
if someone asks then im usually happy to explain my thoughts tho-
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all of those except for "lmao lol" are misquoted and significantly change the meaning of what was saidIn post 1936, Aureal wrote:In post 1930, fireisredsir wrote:
if any single other person in the game thinks my worldview doesn't make sense or that you're making any sort of reasonable or coherent point here then i will answer, otherwise i don't think that deserves a response lolIn post 1926, Aureal wrote:In post 1916, fireisredsir wrote:
lol???In post 1913, Aureal wrote: So you are trying to say that being on a bad elimination without reasons of your own is towny?
lmao???
That's not an answer so I'm going to assume you're just word salading some nonsense and can't answer because you don't actually have a worldview that makes any sense.
"sheep is super pure"
"sheep was on both miseliminations"
"so what it was what town wanted"
"so you think miseliminating people just because town allegedly wants them flipped is super pure"
"lmao lol"
Yeah that's a nutty worldview that you don't want to own up to.-
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whoopsIn post 1941, sheepsaysmeep wrote: damn that's kinda sad-
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i mean i kinda thought it was tmi on you being wolf lol but i dunno-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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i reflected and determined it is because you are willfully twisting my words and choosing to take things to unreasonable conclusions in order to nitpick some point that is barely relevant to anything
that is why i stopped engaging-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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btw im not currently voting bc i kinda think ideal play here is probably to lim who the consensus townreads think we should lim
id rather have implo/mena/aisa decide bc even if somehow that isn't all town, at the very least it should be less scum-dense than the group outside of it
and i think if we flip a town who isn't me, especially being pushed for by me or members of that outside group, that's like worst possible scenario and we probably insta lose
if we flip me, especially if there's 2 scum, maybe we don't? bc then whoever doesn't die of the townreads at least gets a chance to reset and reassess
doing that approach rather than straight up voting maybe makes it harder to see what scum are trying to do after it's been proposed so it does maybe make it harder to solve the team, so idk maybe there's issues with that-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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im not interested in credit lol
i think it was clear what i was saying to any reasonable person reading in good faith
if someone else tells me that it wasn't then im wrong and i can explain it to them-
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i feel like this is so incredibly clearly not representative of my positionIn post 1962, Aureal wrote: His apparent position of "person who voted out two town is super pure, person who voted out zero town has got to be scum" is actually logically consistent.
implosion how is this not willful-
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oh shit waddup-
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you are taking those words and applying them to a context that they were not used in, in order to misrepresent my positionIn post 1965, Aureal wrote: "super pure game" is literally the exact words used in 1897, it's not in any way a misrepresentation. That's literally what fire said. You just don't like it being pointed out that that's not true in any meaningful way that someone who wants to solve the game would use.-
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fair i guessIn post 1975, implosion wrote:
i feel like maybe 1% of mafia games have actual instances of mafia intentionally misinterpreting something to gain a rhetorical advantage. it's just so easy to refute by saying "no, i meant z, not y". As such I think it's an extremely high burden to show that someone is actually willfully misrepresenting something, at least that they're doing so in a way that is specifically as mafia trying to lie to gain rhetorical advantage in an argument. Maybe you're using the word willful differently from me.In post 1963, fireisredsir wrote: implosion how is this not willful
I tend to think that this sort of thing is more often someone who misread something or misinterpreted some phrasing (because we're on the internet, and we don't have body language cues or tone of voice or anything that would make it easy to actually interpret what anyone is saying) and then got stubborn about it.
i do think the original thing she probably thought was a real point but the digging in and doubling down doesn't even feel like she's trying to approach the situation in good faith-
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ok just to be super clear so this can be the last post on this useless topicIn post 1981, Aureal wrote:
There is no context other than THE ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME in which sheep twice voted out town and you call his game super pure despite that!In post 1969, fireisredsir wrote:
you are taking those words and applying them to a context that they were not used in, in order to misrepresent my positionIn post 1965, Aureal wrote: "super pure game" is literally the exact words used in 1897, it's not in any way a misrepresentation. That's literally what fire said. You just don't like it being pointed out that that's not true in any meaningful way that someone who wants to solve the game would use.
i am spoilering this bc i think this the usefulness:length ratio of this is extremely low
Spoiler:-
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i remember hearing about this setup from a little birdieIn post 1994, Ydrasse wrote: i want my feelers out before i poof
philosophically i think claiming sooner > later works better but that might that i’m obsessed with a dumb em setup where masons claimed and people solved before they burned through cleats in a smaller pool-
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ok but can you address this:In post 2004, sheepsaysmeep wrote: I once more apologize for doubting aisa was a villager
bc i still don't really get what about aisa's posting now suddenly is so different that you don't think it would be fakeable as scumIn post 1785, implosion wrote: So sheep. Honestly, something about the way in which sheep is indecisive right now is really offputting to me. I generally tend to think changing your mind is more often than not something town do more compared to scum. But that's not really exactly what sheep is doing, sheep had this feeling Aisa might be scum but then abandoned that feeling when, tbh, nothing really changed. Yeah Aisa townposted more but it's not like Aisa townposted in a way that she wasn't already doing. It kind of feels like if sheep is town who thinks Aisa is town then he should have figured that out a long time ago, or at least like, I'm not sure why he changed his mind now except that he's scum who just realizes she's never a viable push.
to the point where you're even apologizing for ever even thinking she could be scum
this latest post feels pretty on par with the stuff she's been doing all game (and also not out of her scumrange at all)
so i don't get what changed your opinion-
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idk how accurate that is exactlyIn post 2007, implosion wrote: My impression of fire is biased in many ways, part of which is because I perceive fire as approaching the game of mafia in some ways similar to how I do, in that fire if scum is sort of trying to make the locally next best move without needing to think about the bigger picture necessarily because the bigger picture for fire is that fire needs to get townread and the way to do that is to act, in each moment, how fire would act as town. And I think fire, if scum, thinks that fire, as town, would just be going along like they've been doing in this day.
I do sort of wonder what they'd say about their own meta in this regard/if they think this is how they'd be playing today as scum.
i think i am good as scum at getting townread and knowing how to appear natural and all that, but primarily i am more of a long term planner than a live in the moment type
i don't generally attempt to act how i would as town, i act in ways that will set the team up to win the game. sometimes that means getting townread, sometimes not
so i think how id act here would really depend on my team. if there was someone positioned well and set up to win already, i probably would kinda let them do their thing and focus on trying to help them set up the win, maybe trying to push out a townie
if there wasn't, and everyone is in the poe, then the focus would probably be on making sure that 2 of us (if there's 3) are locked as unpaired, but not really caring who we elim, bc that isn't as important for winning the game. that might mean a hard bus or some in depth theatre. i think this world never really gets to this point bc there's no way i play yesterday how i did if im our team's best shot at endgaming
i don't think there's any world where i as scum pressure and bait mena upon entering lol bc as he said himself, that would be really dumb
i think i only would try to push out skitter like that as scum if i am okay trading myself for her because someone else can carry it to the end, so probably like you or aisa-
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is this usage of read pronounced like lead or like leadIn post 2016, sheepsaysmeep wrote: each time I read and reflect on her content I kinda find it >rand wolfy in that moment-
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im still wondering what about her latest post didn't feel wolfy and in fact felt so couldn't be wolfy that you wanted to apologize for not seeing her as town before
is it just, now you see her as town, the tunnel is gone, so you can see her posts as town? there's no doubts that you backed off too easily or anything?-
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yes. i agree with that
i think some of that indignantness can sometimes come from scum who went to great efforts to not be on miselim wagons bc they were hoping someone would later point out how towny that was and now they're annoyed that nobody seems to care-
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it gets very tiring having to keep doing this but just bc ydra is new here and is lacking context, this is just flat out a lie, ceph was doing exactly that in 1527 and 1530 (and for more context, this is him pulling out of a pretty deep tunnel, which makes it more significant)In post 2026, Aureal wrote: He keeps throwing out comments that seem divorced from reality like he's got a narrative he wants to subtly push; like saying Cephrir was towny for being the one trying to start counter-wagons at the end of day two (he was not doing that)-
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gonna go ask my scum buddies in the pt to claim the towncred for pointing out that the link doesn't work, since i already got mine for that earlier-
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if you are town i apologize, it seemed too bad faith and too unreasonable for me to believe that you genuinely didn't get my point. if it really was so unclear then my badIn post 2031, Aureal wrote: If I miss nuance, please feel free to explain it to me, not lmao lol at me. Like I was today, I am often posting from work, looking in very briefly and taking in snippets at a time.-
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i can get to the iso from there so yes
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what about the gamestate makes you concerned about me being town?-
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i don't tend to use my vote that actively in these type of situationsIn post 2066, sheepsaysmeep wrote: I think aureal is wolfier but I am aboard the train that everyone else left that was fire lim feels more right here
aureal vote was a) I didnt want to put fire at e-1, b) symbolic vote / pressure for being wolfy (reason I think fire/aureal felt w/w is cuz I dont get why fire still refuses to vote aureal lol. I think village!fire would have a bit more eagerness at the possibility aureal somehow gets limmed over him today. or, eagerness to pressure aureal. but instead he's just compounding on condemning himself to death today, doing basically nothing with aureal, feels like he actively wants aureal not to die before him)
i also kinda started to second guess myself on aureal idk. and i want to see what ydra does-
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mmm idk ive read some wolfgames where i don't think he really cared about them and i still think they feel differentIn post 2070, sheepsaysmeep wrote: idk
when I read fire's further explanation about why dunn is town by meta
I thought wow that makes sense and actually exactly fits dunn in this game, so I'll run with it
but I feel like the behavior in question could also be explained by not giving a shit about this game
like bothering a bit less to explain stuff and cover certain bases - maybe thats just the wolfgame but with less of a will to do stuff in this game because only 20% of the game is actively giving a shit
maybe he only has one wolf partner or theyre in a bad position so he cant bring himself to try the same way and that explains the disparity we're talking about over alignment reasons
idfk
what do you think about the chances of that fire
im not like 100% confident yes i can perfectly read dunn or anything so i could be wrong but i would be pretty surprised
especially w the andante case thing. like if he isn't that invested in the game then why does he care enough to pull that out-
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it seemed like something that the town bunny in the field running around pushing buttons would doIn post 2084, Aisa wrote: Hmm fire you know my woo reaction test? Why do you find that towny?
there's just like an eagerness to solve the game and inquisitiveness behind it (which i think is also recognizable without meta)
it's not like it's something that's impossible for scum to fake it's just that idk if scum would even think of it?
i don't think it's a particularly strong part of my read anymore i admit i was being somewhat lazy before by townbinning mostly off that, i feel better about my reasons now-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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i would like to hear from dunn about ydra bc i think despite my general wariness of her i am finding it hard not to believe what she's pointing out and i would like to at least hear an alternate viewpoint-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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ydra have you seen sheep town-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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i don't think sheep flipping scum makes ydra-scum stocks go down-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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maybe a little bit i guess-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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if i think that my vote can push aureal over the edge and also multiple people are saying we're not aligned
then why tf do i not just do that and take it to endgame myself
it's not like i would rather crawl my way 90% out of a hole and then be like "oop nvm i really wanted aureal to be the one living here!!"-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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i don't know how you think there's ever a world where i'm w/w with aureal and i want to die before her that badly-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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basically just you had a scumread on the slot + you know ydra, wanted to hear if you had any thoughts on her entrance in general and her approach to things so farIn post 2143, Dunnstral wrote:
What do you mean by this?In post 2098, fireisredsir wrote: i would like to hear from dunn about ydra bc i think despite my general wariness of her i am finding it hard not to believe what she's pointing out and i would like to at least hear an alternate viewpoint
do you still think she's the best lim here? if so can you sell people on it a little bit? and if not who's your second choice?-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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ydra whats your read on me independent of sheep-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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hmmm okay that helps i guessIn post 2164, Ydrasse wrote:
eeeehhhhhhhIn post 2163, fireisredsir wrote: ydra whats your read on me independent of sheep
i don't think i know how to read your tonally or whatever but i think your posting day two isn't terrific, you make some weird like theoretical thoughts/worlds like where you wonder about wolves in the drivers seat and you were part of the reason skitter died given your casing and in general you've been a slot that's failed to resolve despite people trying to kill you which is a curiosity in of itself,
looking at today's wagon on you it looks like it's mostly people who are probably town voting you which is like, what are the wolves doing if you're town, i guess choosing not to kill you or being afraid of having to do it? yesterday's wagon on you is a little more seedy to me with dunn/ceph but it's like. you keep cropping up but no one wants to bite which is just ?
that doesn't say a lot but i'm unsure of how to word it, if you're a wolf i guess your partners want to keep you alive rather than defaulting to bussing, if you're town wolves probably don't want blood on their hands or are saving to kill you later where they'll be like, "oh look fire is still here :/ how did they wiggle out smh"
i wouldn't be upset if you were wagoned and killed tbqh, it avoids a lot of worst case scenarios and i have people who i know i would never wagon today and probably for most of the game so. a shrug and a thumbs down
i was feeling concerned that it seemed like you were kinda avoiding digging into sorting me, which i wouldn't really expect from you as town, where i could see some potential scum motivation for delaying that project (for example, until after sheep flips, especially if you are scum+sheep town then you may not want to give a read on me that you may end up needing to reverse trajectory on later idk)
in theory it should probably make me feel better that you eagerly gave a full dose of thoughts rather than something cagey but i suppose if you were scum you could deduce that being cagey would not be the response that im looking for
your focus so far does seem kinda singular (ok i have meta on sheep. i want to sort sheep. i think sheep is scum. i want to lim sheep.) rather than taking everything in and solving the game overall. ik it's a lot of game but still-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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i guess it's fairly likely that based on that post there were those underlying thoughts already and you just hadn't talked about them yet, which is probably +town if true-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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aaaaaaaaaaaaa-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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