Open 737: Stack the Deck (Game Over)
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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If he steals ma page tops, ima lynch himIn post 18, Vex Vience wrote:im assuming that creature just gets obvtowned early on?-
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Enigma
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Even considering that he’s an alt?In post 40, skitter30 wrote:
yeah i agree overallIn post 37, Almost50 wrote:Early *serious* read alert: Vex is likely town. I did the exact same thing (speculating about what scum might have picked) when I played this setup for the first time. It's not a *strong* TR bc there is a scum motive to do it (and I'd really rather not speaking of that right now) but I'd like to think of him as a townie for a starting point.-
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Enigma
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There is a chance* instead of likely.In post 48, Enigma wrote:It’s likely that you might have experience with such setups. I’m pretty meh towards early reads anyways-
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Nah doesn't bother me so much, meta only takes you so far when scumhuntingIn post 73, Vex Vience wrote:also enigma are u just generally against alts?
im getting that feeling from u
Whilst I don't think its super productive, agree with Vex its fine to boot us out of RVS. I wouldn't say its helping scum unless people are literally softclaiming their TPRs, in which case helping scum CC is the least of our worries...In post 67, ruru wrote:I think it's like actively antitown because it informs scum's decision of what to claim-
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Enigma
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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I would be so upset if later this we find out that you weren't joking with this lol
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Why wouldn't scum just fake claim regardless of our discussion, claiming VT doesn't really help them out at L-1 anyways so at least could just take their chances with a CC bait or potentially get away with it?In post 78, ruru wrote:Suppose you're a scum at L1 and you have to decide what to claim, you have information that town will probably believe n+1 PRs existing, so you claim PR-
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Hypothetically yes, but unfortunately town has a tendency to lynch VTs claims and let TPRs get off...In post 87, ruru wrote:If scum really claimed pr every time then town could just confirm themselves by claiming vt
Another thing is that there is very little defence once a TPR is outed in this set up. No docs, watchers, JKs, etc. Bodyguard is less than ideal - i.e. very little to discourage scum NKing TPRs if they CC.-
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Someone should replace out so NM can replace in so we can lynch himIn post 92, Almost50 wrote:
Because it's fun.In post 79, skitter30 wrote:@a50 why wagon sky?
And also bc it's good for the game.
Well, it's as good as any other wagon really, but my vote is already there and so is ruru's, so if you want to be our third I'd be obliged. (It's still be L-4 you know, and N_M isn't even in this game if it makes you feel any better)-
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Tbh I agree with how :/ this is, but I also don't know why scum would ever say such a thing either....In post 110, skitter30 wrote:In post 89, Skygazer wrote:
Guys you know how hypo innos are a thing?
Why don't we do hypo scum teams? If I'm the traitor then my partners are ruru and A50 pls dont crosskill me guys
this is actually kinda :/
i don't know why town says this-
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Not quite sure what we are getting at, but there are quite a few players whose gameplay primarily involve trolling, regardless of alignment.In post 132, Antihero wrote:
i mean....... i don't think sky (or anyone with a mental capacity exceeding a dog turd's) seriously thinks trolling is going to get them townreadIn post 127, Almost50 wrote:
Well, the underlined makes a hell of a difference, doesn't it? What I'm saying is you don'tIn post 124, ruru wrote:Once upon a time, a50 and I played a game where he (as town) scumread the outed ICbecause he wasn't reading the gamejokeabout lynching the IC as town when you'retotally awarethey have been confirmed as the IC, and that it almost always comes from scum who think it's one way to appear "too scummy to be scum".
People just troll and shitpost because its fun?-
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What do you mean byIn post 126, ruru wrote:It's like pretty hard for me to take your vote on me seriously when you already called it a "pressure vote" and like I pretty much expect you to read me correctly before eod anyway regardless of your alignment? And I'd rather just be shitposting lolregardless of your alignmenthere (i.e. skitter's)? Why would skitter not know your alignment if she was scum?-
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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I mean that is a bit reachy regarding lynching skitter if she scumreads you (correctly) and you end up being lynched. Why are you suggesting the correct play is to lynch her after you are lynched (regardless of flip) - yes scum can bus, but (town) skitter can and should also be able to scumread you (correctly or incorrectly) without dooming her to being PLd after you are lynched?In post 147, ruru wrote:If skitter is still scumreading me at eod, correct play is to lynch me and then lynch her, and scum.her is probably aware of that and therefore probably won't try to mislynch me-
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Ofrhz mocked me game start about pagetops, so she shall regret thatIn post 177, Creature wrote:In post 17, Skygazer wrote:VOTE: Creature
I've seen an accidental lolhammer on an IC that has yet to be revealed, can we make history and accidentally lynch an outed IC?
You two got nothing else to do?In post 20, Enigma wrote:
If he steals ma page tops, ima lynch himIn post 18, Vex Vience wrote:im assuming that creature just gets obvtowned early on?
btw, I see you stole my page top ...-
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You think that she thought to changed her profile pic, because she said she was watching avatar in a post? Ahaha, gotta hand it - this is far beyond the bounds of my reasoning lol .... brain can not compute .... guess I gotta just leave Sky as is for now.In post 199, Almost50 wrote:
Well, I haven't checked her other ongoing games and I dunno if she said she'd be watching avatar in them, so I can't return a reliable answer. However, I do think that post had something to do with that avatar edit in this game, and thus more inclined to buy it. After all, if I lose to her because of THAT move I'd still be laughing hard at how cute of a move it was.In post 197, Enigma wrote:Welcome to A50 theories ... true madness, this is why I take them with a grain of salt ahaha
A50, re Sky's avatar do you think she changed it just because of this specific game and the wagon on her (considering she is playing in several other games rn)?-
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Tbh, you make an assumption that we think you are town for your logic to work, and then at the same time you continue to claim that you are intentionally playing somewhat scummy and can understand why people are scumreading you.... So you can perhaps see why people are "having trouble understanding you"In post 214, ruru wrote:
... because I'm town and I'll flip town? Like seriously this is a stupid question and I'm kinda having a hard time getting into the game because the majority of the playerlist seems to be having trouble understanding where I'm coming from wrt mafia theory when I don't think I'm being particularly unclear or particularly wrong in what I'm sayingIn post 212, skitter30 wrote:
@ruru can you respond to this please?In post 182, Enigma wrote:I mean that is a bit reachy regarding lynching skitter if she scumreads you (correctly) and you end up being lynched. Why are you suggesting the correct play is to lynch her after you are lynched (regardless of flip) - yes scum can bus, but (town) skitter can and should also be able to scumread you (correctly or incorrectly) without dooming her to being PLd after you are lynched?
I'd much rather answer sorting questions than mafia theory questions
I actually want to policy lynch like everyone right now
Can you explain your Jager vote then?In post 214, ruru wrote:Unfortunately I don't have strong reads and I don't feel like talking to anyone so basically I haven't done anything and I understand the scumread on me-
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Yeh that was me with the quote. Tbh when I first wrote that I was looking at it thinking that ruru could be scum and it set off alarm bells. In my 217 where I kind of revisited the quote from the assumption of a town!ruru chain of thought, it made more sense. However, the logic in ruru's post only works out if you approach it thinking that ruru is town.In post 219, Almost50 wrote:Like, I want to interfere here yet I don't want to (!!).
OK, people are not reading what ruru said correct, so the back(s) and forth(es) are justified from "their" PoV, but seem a bit ridiculous to me. Let me go fetch the quote.. here it is:
Now let's see.. check the underlined. Is it EOD yet?? I don't think it is, and thus discussing what follows while "ignoring" the condition sounds ridiculous in the first place.In post 147, ruru wrote:If skitter is still scumreading me at eod, correct play is to lynch me and then lynch her, andscum.her is probably aware of that and therefore probably won't try to mislynch me
Then, someone said something about "regardless of the flip" which I fail to find here (maybe it's somewhere else, so please be kind to point it out). As it is, what I got here is "if skitter still fails to that ruru is Townby the end of the day, then ruru will assume skitter is scum and faking a read on her, thus offers herself to be lynched andwhen she flips townto lynch skitter next, because -in ruru's mind- skitter knows her too well to still be SRing her after "what's to come".
However, the bolded tells me ruru isn't that confident skitter is faking at this point. On contrary, she thinks skitter's readat this pointmight be justified, for ruru herself admits she hasn't yet obv!towned. She thus thinks skitter SRingnowis a sugn skitter is Town, but if that read is still thereafter ruru "does her thing" and obv!town(which should be sometime betwee now and EoD, THEN you can all assume one of them is scum for sure and proceed with the "lynch ruru and -if town- lynch skitter" plan.
Now, where did I go wrong? What am I missing??
@skitter: As for you not ever doing what Sky did as either alignment; I 100% believe you. I said >I< would, because I'm that eccentric. You are more of an orthodox player, while I'm the exact opposite. (You know how to obv!town for starters, while if I tried that I end up looking far more scummy than if I deliberately tried to act scummy!!)
So, it's very normal .. very natural to me that you, Enigma and most others would fail to see it my way (regarding what Sky did) for you would have to be me (or someone crazy) to even look at it that way.
A50, you townreading ruru then?-
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In post 211, Almost50 wrote:
OK, we agree on 2/3 and you're conf!Town so your reads are a good reference to me.In post 210, Creature wrote:If I go crazy:
01. Almost50
02. HeWhoSwims
03. Skygazer
04. ruru
05. Antihero
06. ManWithNoName
07. Enigma
08. FrankJaeger
09. Creature
10. Gamma Emerald
11. skitter30
12. Vex Vience
VOTE: Antihero
A50 (and creature)In post 198, Almost50 wrote:OK, so substitute Sky with MWNN in my initial Scum team formation and that's game over. Scums are Antihero, ManWithNoName & FrankJaeger. I'm a GENIUS!!
I was just checking a few ISOs and realised MWNN has three posts, has been V/LA and essentially contentless. How did we reach the conclusion for MWNN?-
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I was expecting you to present something on A50 but you haven't ... any thoughts on A50 and his vote on you?In post 230, Antihero wrote:
/sighIn post 210, Creature wrote:If I go crazy:
01. Almost50
02. HeWhoSwims
03. Skygazer
04. ruru
05. Antihero
06. ManWithNoName
07. Enigma
08. FrankJaeger
09. Creature
10. Gamma Emerald
11. skitter30
12. Vex Vience
ok, let's go over why a50 is crossed out i guess-
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Reading from p11 onward and commenting, sorry if posts might seem like they are disjointed.
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A50
I remember reading somewhere that A50 complaining about how he is a prime N1 target as both scum and town, kinda see why now. I've played with A50 a few times, but only with him as scum. He feels a bit different here though ... maybe in the game solving? Though the hypo scum me would do this/that including mod guessing isn't helping his case since there are too many variables for a mechanic play D1. As I mentioned previously, I'm not a huge fan of the V/LA push on MWNN considering it is a site-wide absence rather than this game only, but now that CJ is in the slot and should hopefully be more active (and I've played with CJ before and know his game a bit better) I'm leaning towards overlooking this for D1, though the associative will be interesting late game with more flips. For me, he is kinda a player that is night action bait and if he is alive in LYLO without hard clears you start asking some serious questions.
Ohh I don't know what to think of A50's self vote and then saying he does this as both alignments whilst acknowledging that this is scummy. Skitter pretty much walks through my entire wtf thought process on the next page.
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Vex
Feels town to me for now. I think just with the sheet amount of content, some scum intentions would slip through somewhere. As I read through, I don't really see much of this in places. He is actively putting pressure and scum hunting, particularly the interaction with A50.
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Night actions
(stemming from a50's 321). We don't know what PRs are in play and many of the actions are not conclusive for town. E.g. a vig can be roleblocked etc. D1 discussion on hypo night actions I don't are particularly helpful, and tbh I feel it is a little bit AI towards scum as there are too many unknowns at this stage for someone townie to even want to engage in all this hypo stuff.
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Frank
Disagree with quite a few of his reads. HWS and antihero as town? I checked their ISOs and I'm struggling to find that perception ...
Franks 464 about A50s CC post is terrible.
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Mechanics discussion
Agree with A50 about CC not being the optimal play. There is very little protection for town in this setup for outed PRs, and scum will be on a limited time towards endgame and it will unravel. Crumb enough so that it is enough to justify in a LYLO/MYLO situation.
You can read a50 and ruru as town/scum whatever, but what they do mention is an optimal play.
Not having a cop/vig doesn't matter. It provides cover for the situation that cop/vig exists. And maybe there isn't a cop/vig, but in the case they might exist it helps town out a lot if we follow the mechanics.
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Ruru
I agree with the vig and hypo-cop strat, but the following (439 about skitter being able to TR ruru because of that post) makes me sad and wonder if this is to buy town credit. Ruru has come off a bit concerned about being TRd by skitter most the game which is :/ And at the same time is less concerned about trying to confirm skitter's alignment - just feel it is very one directional.
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Sky
This has just been fluff and shit posting dunno, kinda was expecting more from (town) sky.
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No comment or comments reserved for other players at the moment. Sorry post is a bit brief to do justice for the past 10 pages.-
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If you wanted pressure, wouldn't you vote frank? Though I'm realising that being D1 confirmed IC sucks haha as noone cares about questioning you and finding out your alignment.In post 534, Creature wrote:I probably won't oppose Frank either-
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Yeh imagine it would be more useful and fun where you could control when you get the mod confirmed ICIn post 539, Creature wrote:I'd rather be an IC that never revealed though.-
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Yeh? It benefits town?In post 546, Gamma Emerald wrote:
whoa, you're just running with ruru's plan?In post 541, Enigma wrote:1. Don't CC any fake claims
2. Vote for who you want to (hypo) vig with hurt tags
3. Hypo cop results tomorrow
UNVOTE:
Waiting a bit-
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Yeh ok haha. NAI.In post 545, ruru wrote:439 was pure sarcasm because the hypocop post is 100% nai and skitter was scumreading me for not making it a couple days earlier which is really silly
also hi ceejay!
Do you still TR skitter btw?-
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Your reservation about there not being a cop in the game? Well if there is no cop, then there is little benefit but if there is a cop it is helpful. Plus it forces scum to put something on the table and potential discussions about choice of targets, so thats is a benefit regardless of cop/no cop. I mean do you have any reservations about downsides?-
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Well I think its quite difficult for scum to deduce the existence of a cop from hypo-claims because they have to POE all the town slots which could potentially have it and that is something they can't do very easily early game, and by late game we have already got most the benefits if a real cop exists.In post 554, Gamma Emerald wrote:
Well if there is no cop, scum could deduce that from hypo results and determine that it's a safe fakeclaim. Plus homesite meta generally makes me uneasy about hypocop except when it's proven effective (like in cop 13Ps on MU)In post 552, Enigma wrote:Your reservation about there not being a cop in the game? Well if there is no cop, then there is little benefit but if there is a cop it is helpful. Plus it forces scum to put something on the table and potential discussions about choice of targets, so thats is a benefit regardless of cop/no cop. I mean do you have any reservations about downsides?-
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The thing is stuff like this (the p-edit) is so WIFOMy considering it is a goon cop and it is not a hard clear. It's like don't vig me, the goon cop can clear me (even though it is not a hard clear) and scum can NK me otherwise - but omits the case if he is scum PR ... but anyways AP for me is a future problem, and at least get his worth for the first few days if he is town ...In post 570, Almost50 wrote:It;s like the VT Cop (VT, not just Vanilla) in a role madness. The VT Cop will only be able to identify the one VT in the game. If there are "named townies" (like, if there's a Miller with no alignment Cop in play or a Nurse with no Doctor in play, or a Macho Citizen.. etc. they will give a "not a VT" result still). If that was a VANILLA Cop though then only true Vanilla Townies and Mafia Goons will give them a positive result.
P-edit: A50 is NEVER a good "Vig" hit. A50 is a good NK for scum and a good Investigation target for Town unless he obv!Towns in which case the Mafia are sure to take care of him on N1. In short, you don't need to worry about me before D3 (and chances I won't even be alive by then)-
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Not familiar with the term ellitelling, but googling finds this: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ellibereth
Just to understand, by ellitell - do you mean that Sky is possible scum here because of her lurking here, and higher rates of activity in other game?-
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I don't think A50 is the right play for today and if he is scum it is a future us problem. Not to mention, I also think he is very weak town. What follows from this is a bit of suspicion on the the three on this wagon (particularly if frank flips scum).In post 674, skitter30 wrote:
the longer this wagon sits here the more i dislike itIn post 650, ofrhz wrote:Almost50 (3): Antihero, Gamma Emerald, FrankJaeger
sky/engima why aren't you voting?
(i guess i'll give cj a pass for another day or two irl but i think that the gamestate woudl perhaps be much better if everyone was voting)
Frank was the person I was interested in voting a while back, but at that stage he had been a bit inactive so I was hoping he would come back and clear up some doubts. Well ... he hasn't done a very good job with that lol.
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Tbh, I don't know how much info we will get trying to lynch Sky. As she mentioned, she is pretty lynchbaity here and I don't really think she will do much to protest against a wagon on her given her activity and she will probably just continue trolling as either alignment making her even more lynchbaity. To me, a player like that is better off being vigged and should definitely not be around endgame, and if she is bp she is screwed - and this can also be mechanically be deciphered before endgame without a D2 claim.In post 596, ruru wrote:Actually how about this
VOTE: Skygazer
HURT: Frank
ellitell and frank needs to die but sky is more likely to be bp I think
--In post 712, BuJaber wrote:Thank you ofrhz
Hello
I will catchup fully probably during the weekend.
Based on first 5 pages: vex, skitter, skygazer and young man A29 are town. Hewhoswims and Enigma are scum.
I don't normally replace people so this is new to me enjoy my tease. More to come.
Ehhh this feels quite awkward.In post 717, BuJaber wrote: Regarding Enigma:
In those 5 pages the number of pagetops, posts about pagetops, jokes about pagetops, and posts about setup make up an awfully large portion of his total posts.
I really don't like pagetop grabbing.. I know many townies do it but it doesn't help at all and sometimes people compete over them which helps artificially boost post and page counts. It's a bit of a personal bias of mine.
It's interesting you only question that read. Has he been townspewing in the thread?
We can talk more once I'm caught up. Usually 24 hours is plenty but I don't think I'll get it done before the weekend. Those 5 pages I read in my work breaks while waiting for the mod to PM me.
You townread several players who are doing much more setup spec than I am? Can you explain this?
Read the pagetops however you want - its fun to troll the mod, especially when she mocks you pregame about pagetops. You mention that many townies steal page tops, then go on to call it scummy? Seems a bit counterintuitive - also vex is doing this as well on these recent pages, and no comment on that.
You also mention HWS as scum. I checked his ISO he has 4 posts in the first 5 pages you reference, and I can barely figure out how he is scum based on those posts.
Last thing - why do you write using words of absolute certainty (e.g. are instead of may/could/might be). How are you so sure of your reads when as town you would be quite uncertain about alignments.-
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In post 464, FrankJaeger wrote:
2/10In post 436, Almost50 wrote:
I dunno. You're NOT using any.In post 423, FrankJaeger wrote:What standards are those so we can get a little more specific
Also,IF SOMEONE CLAIMS A PR TODAYDO NOT CC
Spoiler: Here's why:
If you disagree with any of this, feel free to do what you will, butpleasedon't discuss alternative strategies. Discussing certain details may still give your role away w.o. even the need for scum to fake claim anything.
Thanks for your attention.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Almost50
You can't yell don't talk spec after this lol.
Your vote stinks too
Your vote also stinks and you haven't done anything to change my opinion on it.In post 706, FrankJaeger wrote:Idk even though skit is ignoring it, ive posted my reasons for my A50 vote. Haven't seen anything to change it so far
VOTE: Frank
HURT: Sky-
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IMO vig null-scum read lurkers who won't aren't so interested in engaging in the game - contributing as town or defending themselves as either alignment. Just my opinion, but the information gain on associative from trying to lynch a lurker (maybe scum, though hard to read due to lack of content) is less compared to lynching someone who is active but scummy.In post 754, ruru wrote:
this needs further explanationIn post 742, Enigma wrote:To me, a player like that is better off being vigged
Not claiming this mafia theory or correct, rather just my thoughts and because I kinda rely more on associative for hunting-
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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I can't really wrap my head around bp equity, but I'm thinking that if it hits a BP it is pretty much scum indicative (bar really bad luck with a rb) anyways - so it's like a cop guilty, and because of game mechanics if a vig existed they don't have to claim to force the guilty because we know who the vig should have targeted anyways (should the vig die)In post 754, ruru wrote:
this needs further explanationIn post 742, Enigma wrote:To me, a player like that is better off being vigged-
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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CJ, I know you have played with tw before in ruru's open 722 as scum. Are there any other games where tw plays, where you have been scum? Interested to try to see where tw is coming from (as I only know town CJ).In post 900, ceejayvinoya wrote:
Uh meta I guess? He never directly read me like this before.In post 896, ruru wrote:do you know why tw is scumreading you?
ruru this was your game ... do you understand where tw is coming from?-
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Sorry I meant 733 here.In post 919, Enigma wrote:
CJ, I know you have played with tw before in ruru's open 722 as scum. Are there any other games where tw plays, where you have been scum? Interested to try to see where tw is coming from (as I only know town CJ).In post 900, ceejayvinoya wrote:
Uh meta I guess? He never directly read me like this before.In post 896, ruru wrote:do you know why tw is scumreading you?
ruru this was your game ... do you understand where tw is coming from?
So your meta read is based mainly on 733 and 725 then? Before I read them, are you scum reading CJ or not town reading CJ?In post 924, the worst wrote:my creds with cjv incoming
mini normal 2021 - scum!tw & VT!cjv. he was the d1 mislynch
newbie 1878 - I was scum and a late rep in, witnessed d1 cjv lynch as town tracker
open 733 we were s/s with Ircher and had a perfect win and it was very, very funny
open 725 I was town seer cjv was werewolf, I caught his buddy n1 he survived and won
open 720 I was detective killed n1 cjv was VT lynched d2 (we don't talk about open 720)
Newbie 1870 I was vt and endgamed, cjv town tracker killed n1
newbie 1866 cjv was VT lynched d1, I survived and won as VT
Newbie 1882 I read, cjv was town mislynched
Open 730 I spectated, cjv was town RB and survived and won
Newbie 1864 I spectated, cjv was VT and survived and won-
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Can you explain why?In post 803, FrankJaeger wrote:I would vig enigma lmao but seriously.
Can post more replies when off of work tomorrow.-
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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Well I've played a few town with CJ so I'll look over them a bit (probs tomorrow).
How did you manage to read MWNN as scum with 3 contentless V/LA posts??-
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Enigma Mafia Scum
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The speed at which the CJ wagon formed is a bit off putting .. the VCA will be interesting if/when he flips
CJ and NWMM are so contentless I can barely make a read, and I don't even know if CJ has read the whole thread yet ...
Reading Open 733 where CJ was scum (with tw), CJ actually (pretends) to scumhunt a bit, actively pushes mislynches, and interacts with the gamestate. Open 725 is a bit of a mess to read, but CJ feels also a bit more actively driving lynches (and he was bussing his partner AP).
Maybe part of why I'm hesitant, in addition to CJ simply having zero content, is a lack of CJ voting on someone so far and advancing the game state. I've also mislynched CJ in other games, partly because he was lurky and didn't get a chance to defend himself. But I've also seen town CJ defend himself as the lynch target when he was more active.
So meta wise I don't quite see the picture on CJ.
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