Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[Imperium]

Boop.

[Imperium]

Hi Wheme!

[Imperium]

Hi Wheme!

Any reads?

I am town

[Imperium]

Hello, Zuko here!

Please proceed like a normal day one. I am just an innocent child.

How much ass kissing should I do before it starts to be suspicious?

[Imperium]

My strategy is to get shot, take the gun, and win a perfect game killing every scum, with the godfather last.

Okay so how suspicious should I be so that you mishoot and give the gun to me so that we actually have a chance for that to happen :p

[Imperium]

Or we can just end it with one gunbearer

I believe the record is two scum killed by one person?

I think nacho and syrana as oil tycoons had more than that?

Not completely sure though.

[Imperium]

nope.

[Imperium]

I do have a super special secret read though!

Spoiler:

Netflix and Chill are town.

[Imperium]

They shot two but the last was scum malamaramollie iirc

I just looked; they shot three.

[Imperium]

Good luck!

[Imperium]

Hello, Zuko here!

Please proceed like a normal day one. I am just an innocent child.

I don't know why I read this as zabka and thought it was a cobra kai reference.

Are you THE prince Zuko?

[Imperium]

NO JOKES

NO FUN

BE SERIOUS SIR!

[Imperium]

So I'm a pretty big dork and when I realized you were referencing Zuko I was like oh hey so we've got Cobra Kai who introduced a similar fighting technique as we saw in Avatar. They're totally meant to be a pair.

Zuko is one of my favorite characters from that show. I was a Katara/Zuko shipper all the way.

[Imperium]

Nope!

Hi Wheme!

Any reads?

I am town

[Imperium]

But why do you ask?

[Imperium]

Lol wheme gets it!

But why do you ask?

Because I don't know if you are town or scum

I was wondering if you had a reason? So like I’m not doing anything but shitposting or I’m not energetic enough though I’m not sure if you read me that way.

Or if you were just shitposting with me which is always the best!

[Imperium]

VOTE: Norfolk Boy1

My scumreads are norfolk and Imperium

Norfolk had strange/lamisty posts

Imperium is playing different from when they were town/they have a lot of filler and it makes me feel bad about them

Are you comparing me to the beginning of last game or at about page 30 when you replaced in?

[Imperium]

Lol okay

[Imperium]

Oh I was laughing at cakes

[Imperium]

VOTE: Norfolk Boy1

My scumreads are norfolk and Imperium

Norfolk had strange/lamisty posts

Imperium is playing different from when they were town/they have a lot of filler and it makes me feel bad about them

Are you comparing me to the beginning of last game or at about page 30 when you replaced in?

When I replaced in

Ah that makes more sense then. I’m a slow starter.

[Imperium]

Fluff and shitposting contingent is not offended sir. No apologies necessary!

[Imperium]

Scum team either chose you randomly

Or

They don’t want you around for too long because either they think you’re unlikely to get shot so you’ll always be an influence with no way to get rid of you, so giving you the gun first means there is a possibility of removing your influence with the hopes you maybe get one right. I was scum in the setup once at my homesite rip, and that’s why we gave the gun to the first person. Then my entire team bused me day one to mess with associatives so he’d mess up day two.

Or

The above and they think your first choice will be a miss.

Or something else but except on Skype I’ve only played this setup once.

[Imperium]

How familiar are you guys with the playerlist Zukokai?

[Imperium]

Hmm remove Norfolk and add ABR and that’s my experience too.

[Imperium]

Decent chance at least one person in that list is scum just due to the large number of scum this game.

Dunno though.

[Imperium]

Lol okay

What's funny?

That you responded that you were gonna keep it close to your chest. Not exactly sure by it made me chuckle it just did.

[Imperium]

I don’t think I’ve posted anything of substance.

[Imperium]

I don’t think I’ve posted anything of substance.

Are you saying you can't be read from fluff?

I actually kinda think i can somewhat.

Though tells guy said that he was scum reading me for early fluff but then I started posting things of substance. I don’t think I have though. I talked a bit about gun mechanics but that’s not really substance.

[Imperium]

I don’t think I’ve posted anything of substance.

I agreed with this until I remembered 121

Yeah I guess in the realm of it’s a serious post, but it’s essentially a mafia theory post and easy to make so it’s not something I’d typically associate with substance.

[Imperium]

Decent chance at least one person in that list is scum just due to the large number of scum this game.

Dunno though.

I think this is the closest you've still gotten to saying a read. Can we expect you to look harder once the game gets rolling a little bit more? Has everyone's posts looked okay to you so far?

I think I’ll probably read the posts before my first one tomorrow, and might have a read or two. Maybe? You’re doing the lords work with the early game pushing and questioning! I’m just getting my baseline here; I’ll get around to being serious eventually.

The only thing I think so far besides Netflix and chill are super town fits me is that I like that dunnstrall looked at the tells guy’s posting history. They’re probably* unaligned from that, and I like that he picked up on the tells guy being a hydra account. When I looked at tells guy he didn’t realize it was the hydra account, I thought he had asked if he could hydra. Although I don’t understand why Dunn thought him questioning the townreads of Dunn was a dig.

*knee jerk thought don’t know how much I want to buy into that dissociative there.

[Imperium]

[Imperium]

Well that’s a bummer. That’s supposed to be the gif that says you fell into a classic blunder. It’s the voice I read mush’s posts in

[Imperium]

For Imperium:
Not familiar with it.

That said, the voice you should be reading my posts in is the stereotypical cyberpunk decker voice. You know the type. Cool hacker dude lit only by the light of his computer screen which is projecting the image in exactly the way computer screens do not do, grumbling with a voice that has met a million packs of cigarettes: "I'm in."

Except not a dude. Definitely still gruff from smoking four people's worth of cigarettes, though.
.

Lol I like this, but I think why I like it besides just making me chuckle a bit is this post feels like a super natural tone.

Whereas the other posts on this page felt a bit formal and not entirely natural such that I was trying to figure out if that was just your writing style or if you’re a mustache twirler wringing your hands going yes yes minions fall into my trap of psychological trickery which led me to the Princess Bride which you should totally watch if you’ve never seen it, but it is where the concept of wifom comes from

[Imperium]

Oh well that’s a bummer

[Imperium]

Imperium too.

Tsk tsk abr You won’t be breaking any records with that read!

[Imperium]

Mush - when I said this page in my post, I meant last page. Didn’t realize we moved to a new one.

[Imperium]

Norfolk's posting just seemed excessively LAMIST to me

How so?

[Imperium]

Thank you for your feedback!

Sir cakes mush hating the post doesn’t mean I don’t want you to answer it,

[Imperium]

Voting isn’t going to give the scumteam information that’s dangerous to town any more than using townreads gives the scumteam information.

Vote if you want. Don’t vote if you want.

It doesn’t really matter.

[Imperium]

Norfolk's posting just seemed excessively LAMIST to me

Really? I think saying that you don't want the gun is scummy as opposed to towny, on the surface.

Whemstar who is asking to be shot is LAMIST in my mind.

To me Norfolk looks like he is overcompensating for something he did that he knows looks scummy on the surface, so I agree with both of you if that makes any sense. I also agree that Whemestar's eager attitude looks like an act to me.

Where did he overcompensate and what was scummy on the surface?

[Imperium]

I realize you’re a bit of a control freak mush and desperately want tone in charge of this game, but kindly but your head out of the middle of my conversations thank you.

I’m pretty sure what your phantom ears hear won’t be going away anytime soon, but I’m actually interested in having my questions answered please and thank you.

[Imperium]

I couldn’t care less that you hate my question or why, but you jumping in to immediately pronounce you hate the post does stumble in the middle of my questioning and scum hunting. Now sir cakez will probably answer me anyway. If he ignores me at first, I’ll just keep bugging him until he does because his answer interests me.

You say you playa subtle town game, that was you right? So file away your hatred maybe, see how the conversation plays out and then jump onmewoth your hatred. Perhaps that data you receive will give you a better read than doing your letter best to interfere,

The second one with duchess is a bit less egregious, but it does still in effect shunt the conversation I was trying to have.

You remind me a little of me when I first started out. I thought I needed to be condescending and abrasive to be taken seriously too. I shrugged that mantle off years ago. I’m pointing this out because I see what your trying to do with this response to me and *shrug*. (Yes, I know you’re Ute not just starting out, you played several years ago and came back recently, my point still stands)

[Imperium]

I realize you’re a bit of a control freak mush and desperately want tone in charge of this game

Do you think this is AI?

I don’t have any meta or experience with her, so I don’t know; I’m just going by their description of themselves and behavior.

Right now I have a slight town lean based on the condescension and abrasiveness, and her reaction to abr calling her obvtown. I think her interaction with you was pretty bad in that I dislike the manner of ways she interacted, but I’m not sure it comes from scum. Mostly the idea that she gives off that she left clever little traps for scum to trip on issomething that might come from town.

[Imperium]

You still insist I was trying to interfere with your questioning, and still I cannot possibly see how I /could/ interfere with it or why I would /want/ to. You make no explanation of how it disrupts, you just assert that it does.

You call me condescending and abrasive, but looking back, I see you are the one who stoops to appeal to ridicule for no visible reason.



The repeated and pointless attacks on my character are noted. Your assertion that I am specifically disrupting you without evidence or explanation is also noted. Your attribution of thought patterns to me even though I have said nothing to support them is noted.

Would you like to add anything else while you're at it?

Nope I’m good!

Interacting with you would just be a distraction and I’ll pass thanks!

[Imperium]

Assuming no secret alts?

You Cakez dunn Norfolk. The former three have seen me in pretty dead on games. Norfolk lost to town me (we were competing day one wagons and he died)

I’m guessing Norfolk was scum there? Have you seen him as town too if so?

Are you guys planning to step back and watch a bit?

I kinda want to circle back around to the Norfolk experience after I’ve talked to a couple people on their Norfolk points if you guys aren’t going to sit back awhile.

[Imperium]

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

[Imperium]

Not mafia is probably scum

Do you have experience with not mafia?

[Imperium]

I haven't seen anyone but you and Wheme talk about Duchess posting fluff. I'm seeing the opposite there. You'll need to explain how it's fluffy.

I'm mainly referring to their first post about how everyone should vote. It looks meant to appear as if they are invested in the game without actually committing to any reads. In hindsight it looks even worse given that he supposedly reads norfolk scummy yet didn't bother giving a read on him even though every post that norfolk made between the start of the game and when Duchess called him scummy were posted before Duchess' "fluffy" post.

Also, it's not even ten pages and 48 hours in and you're making associative reads? PUBLIC associative reads, no less? I'm also gonna need you to explain /that/ for me.

Well, it mainly comes from a general vibe I'm getting about the gamestate. It seems to me that several people are pushing onto Norfolk and naturally scum are trying to push into a different direction. Duchess' seemingly disingenuous push onto Wheme fits the bill. Again, I can very well be wrong, it's a preliminary read. But, there does seem to be something strange going on in that area.

I like this. I’d ordered finally squinted at you calling duchess town for making an essentially mechanical and easy post, but I liked the fleshed outness of this and the previous.

[Imperium]

I don’t know where ordered finally came from. It should just say I’d squinted,,,

I am caught up though yay me!

Maybe nacho will get around to posting some day too

[Imperium]

Not mafia is probably scum

Do you have experience with not mafia?

From a while back yeah

Are you any good at reading him?

I find him impossible to read and I think I’m okay at reading lurkers.

I was surprised that he popped in with a read.

[Imperium]

*and I didn’t know what to make of him giving a read.

[Imperium]

Hi not mafia!

[Imperium]

For all the accusing me of being condescending and abrasive, your inability to disengage without trying to put some zing in it is /also/ noted.

I wasn’t trying to be zingy nor was I casting aspersions on your character. I was taking what you described as your playstyle and behavior for you wanting to be in control. Your manner of posting is condescending and abrasive; I’m not telling you you’re a bad person for that. Your posts read like many of my posts once upon a time, and you better believe people called me out for it too. I recognize this approach and if anything because I do it has me leaning lightly town, which is dangerous too because the last time I town read someone because their approach to the game was familiar they ended up being scum.

Any time you bit into a conversation by answering a question for someone else or by jumping on a question asked, you have the potential to interrupt the attempted conversation. That’s just how it is. While your hips hot interruption kinda looks town, it still has the potential to alter what I wanted and hoped to get out of the question. When you do it twice right after I’ve posted questions to someone, you do potentially impact my scumhunting and ability to get reads from an interaction I wanted, and it’s annoying. That doesn’t mean you can’t post when I’m posting or talk to me or anything that you said, but twice in a short span dunking on my posts and questions can impact my attempt to get reads.

I didn’t want to continue interacting on this because I don’t think it would be productive; I think it would end up being a potentially distracting toxic disaster where I end up being a humongous bitch, and I don’t want that. You’re mad I said you’re condescending; you are. You think I’m scum; you’re wrong. Both don’t make for a conducive interaction.

[Imperium]

Unwnd yay hi! I hope you’re town

[Imperium]

Assuming no secret alts?

You Cakez dunn Norfolk. The former three have seen me in pretty dead on games. Norfolk lost to town me (we were competing day one wagons and he died)

I’m guessing Norfolk was scum there? Have you seen him as town too if so?

Are you guys planning to step back and watch a bit?

I kinda want to circle back around to the Norfolk experience after I’ve talked to a couple people on their Norfolk points if you guys aren’t going to sit back awhile.

Yes he was scum. I was town. His buddy was pretty committed to my side so couldn’t get over easily.

And yes, I did want to sit back and not cause waves in the water to try and read what’s going on. The minute I start hinting to my actual reads the game moves to be more political. I want some more information go off of first.

Okay have fun eating popcorn!

It kinda sucks you guys got the gun first because on the one hand it’s nice to know you’re town on the other you’re kinda my default to bounce something off of.

But it makes sense to sit back. We did that in smoke filled, and I think the game benefitted at times.

[Imperium]

Don’t even close to have reads to play that game, sorry.

[Imperium]

Unwnd, cakez and not mafia because we’ve played together before

Do I get an A?

[Imperium]

Yeah I debated between Dunn and not mafia and landed on not mafia because I’ve played more games with him

[Imperium]

I think if I shoot duchess I die

She flips red though

Why would you die.

Do lean her flipping red though.

[Imperium]

Got it.

My question is wondering if I’m misunderstanding the mechanics. I’ll reread.

[Imperium]

I keep forgetting about The Godfather (yes, syryana I read the setup and listened to you when you talked about The Godfather). I thought he was referring to the nightkill which shouldn’t be him since he’d be the gun bearer, but I understand!

And unwind you read fast!

[Imperium]

I asked you that question cakez because I wanted to see how much you had thought about that and Norfolk’s early posts, and what your explanation would be. And I thought your saying that Norfolk was basically aying that Netflix was the one with the gun so he didn’t have to scumhunt was odd. It felt in a similar vein to the way you pushed battle mage in xeno, and I wanted to see if your explanation felt similar.

I also asked because it doesn’t really look all that lamist to me, but it did feel like something easy to jump on. So sure, he can be scum, but does scum come out in their first two posts and say don’t shoot me when scum are the ones that really really don’t want to be shot? My neejerk is that scum don’t want to stand out like that right away, so it didn’t look lamist to me at all.

The “I’m glad I didn’t get the gun” might give off a sense of nervousness like he’d be evaluated on why he didn’t get the gun, but I’m not sure why he would worry about it really in this playerlist.

I mean in any case he’s either nervous scum or nervous town, and I thought it was odd that everyone just kinda landed on obvious nervous scum, so there’s either people looking for an easy push or there are bussers about.

[Imperium]

I keep forgetting about The Godfather (yes, syryana I read the setup and listened to you when you talked about The Godfather). I thought he was referring to the nightkill which shouldn’t be him since he’d be the gun bearer, but I understand!

And unwind you read fast!

I admit a lot of it was skim, but this helps me actually because I've trained myself to just skim until something glaring pops out to me

Saves trouble, I don't get people who think a wall needs to be read word for word, just pick out what you like

I’m a slow reader and slow skimmer. I used to try to read every word, but now I skim because mafia is a hobby not my life.

I’m just always in awe of people who can read fast.

[Imperium]

I am scumhunting you yes cakes and I suspect your approach to Norfolk.

[Imperium]

I mean in any case he’s either nervous scum or nervous town, and I thought it was odd that everyone just kinda landed on obvious nervous scum, so there’s either people looking for an easy push or there are bussers about.

I mean without fully repeating myself

If he's scum then this is just his MO. You can't expect anything else out of him. He's a good shot to where you either start opening up the idea of bussing or he's a townie who becomes worse (no offense) later down the line

If I think about gamestate I'd actually say he makes the best shot reading back my own thoughts lol

You’ve played with him before, are you saying he’ll never do anything?

I mean the game is just under 48 hours in and what ten pages. I don’t get the POV you’re holding.

Quite frankly if he’s town I don’t want him shot because he doesn’t want the pressure, and in one of his newbies he stated not really liking scum or power roles, so the pressure thing is real regardless of his alignment, and if he’s town we lose Netflix who I want around longer.

[Imperium]

But why do you ask?

Because I don't know if you are town or scum

They said they are town already why would they lie

Zukokai I was commenting on this lol

[Imperium]

Imperium. Care to comment on that?

No, that was more an observation. I don't have a question to ask about that, but I would like you to answer the question I asked you.

[Imperium]

ATTACK ON TITAN!

So Norfolk has a handful of games in the newbie queue and exactly no completed games out of the newbie queue. He doesn't appear to be a lurker as either alignment, and he's stated in one of his newbie games that he doesn't like the pressure of being scum or a power role.

Which means his opening posts here quite frankly are either or. They could easily come from inexperienced town who doesn't want the pressure of having a gun early because they lack confidence. It could also yes come from nervous scum.

I don't think his opening posts are all that scummy because they can as easily come from town who doesn't want the responsibility of fucking up early as it can from scum who's afraid of getting shot, but I don't think there's any real way to tell the difference right this minute. I just find the super push there from his first two posts pretty scummy, and if he is scum I bet there's some bussing in there because scum love to find their partners scummy for not very scummy stuff.

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

That's best case scenario. Worst case scenario is he's actually town, given a power he doesn't want and is uncomfortable with AND we lose netflix.

Acting like it's misguided not to just go for the slanker when you can't be a slanker at the beginning of the game is really weird.

[Imperium]

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

This is a rather liberal interpretation, in my opinion.

This is one of the reasons I suspect Cakez.

[Imperium]

The newbie game we played he sorta just said 'yeah I'll self-vote to resolve myself' after being run up. Energy isn't something he relies upon, maybe that's evident in just his avatar alone. How do you think partners would be treating right now in a hypothetical situation of scum?

I don't know.

[Imperium]

Norfolk's posting just seemed excessively LAMIST to me

Really? I think saying that you don't want the gun is scummy as opposed to towny, on the surface.

Whemstar who is asking to be shot is LAMIST in my mind.

To me Norfolk looks like he is overcompensating for something he did that he knows looks scummy on the surface, so I agree with both of you if that makes any sense. I also agree that Whemestar's eager attitude looks like an act to me.

Where did he overcompensate and what was scummy on the surface?

Norfolk's first post reads to me almost the same as when scum feigns confusion about a Night Kill upon day start. He is overcompensating in his next post in that he ignores the implication that Whemestar is casting suspicion his way, and instead casually replies as if he is known town. He made his first post, 3 people immediately condemned it, he realized how scummy it was, and then tried to throw in a fake townslip to compensate.

I can understand your line of thinking here, sort of, but I don't agree.

[Imperium]

I can't get nacho to stop watching tiktok videos and read the game, but I did have him read Norfolk's iso to make sure I'm not going over the deep end lol. He doesn't really think it's that scummy either, but all he did was nod and smile at my thoughts and is back to watching videos again.

[Imperium]

This is me reluctantly being dragged into the thread. I don't get the Norfolk hate; what the fuck kind of scum team worth their salt lets the newbie walk out and go "hey guys oh boy am I glad I didn't get shot don't shoot me haha!!".

[Imperium]

Cakez would be on my shortlist for a bullet for the push though!

[Imperium]

Norfolk's posting just seemed excessively LAMIST to me

Really? I think saying that you don't want the gun is scummy as opposed to towny, on the surface.

Whemstar who is asking to be shot is LAMIST in my mind.

To me Norfolk looks like he is overcompensating for something he did that he knows looks scummy on the surface, so I agree with both of you if that makes any sense. I also agree that Whemestar's eager attitude looks like an act to me.

Where did he overcompensate and what was scummy on the surface?

Norfolk's first post reads to me almost the same as when scum feigns confusion about a Night Kill upon day start. He is overcompensating in his next post in that he ignores the implication that Whemestar is casting suspicion his way, and instead casually replies as if he is known town. He made his first post, 3 people immediately condemned it, he realized how scummy it was, and then tried to throw in a fake townslip to compensate.

I can understand your line of thinking here, sort of, but I don't agree.

Which part do you disagree with; the comparison I made of his first post, or my interpretation of his second?

I just didn't interpret either that way.

Your interpretation could be right. Mostly I'm just trying to make sense of people's thoughts in that direction.

[Imperium]

I disagree heavily with that take. I am willing to go out on a limb and say that most mafiosi write their own posts.

And then there's people like Gypyx in Tenet who are so heavily coached and have their posts approved by their scum team that they escape notice because they don't look anything like they usually look as scum.

But I don't think he was saying that he wouldn't be writing his own posts, but that the scum team would probably heavily advise against such an opening.

[Imperium]

Norfolk's first post reads to me almost the same as when scum feigns confusion about a Night Kill upon day start. He is overcompensating in his next post in that he ignores the implication that Whemestar is casting suspicion his way, and instead casually replies as if he is known town. He made his first post, 3 people immediately condemned it, he realized how scummy it was, and then tried to throw in a fake townslip to compensate.

This doesn't make sense to me; need your help parsing the thought process here.

How is Norfolk's entry the same as when scum feigns confusion about a nightkill? He didn't "feign confusion", he just said that he was glad he didn't get the gun because he didn't want responsibility which is a common line of thought.

Your fake townslip argument is where it goes off the rails for me. Ofc he responds as if he's known town; he's writing from his perspective and if he does otherwise it's more a matter of style than alignment. He doesn't really have to respond to Wheme's suspicion because Wheme didn't voice any actual concerns for him to respond to and yes multiple people ragged on him on page 2 or whatever but I don't think that translates to attempted fake townslips like you're implying here.

[Imperium]

That's okay! People usually get over whatever concerns they have with me in the beginning of the game by the end of day one.

And I'm sure notscience is still probably sitting in a pool of paranoia thinking I gave him a gun to get him out of the game or something :p

[Imperium]

Even then, I do not expect anyone to announce in their Private thread before making their first post in the game.

They had 24 hours of discussion before the game started and you don't think that the inexperienced scum ran openings with his more experienced partners?

[Imperium]

Because if that's the case this is gonna be a quick game.

[Imperium]

What would flipping Norfolk clear up lotus?

There has been a lot of conversation around Norfolk so seeing his alignment would help solve

This is a bad response.

Give me specifics - what would flipping Norfolk solve? If a lot of people suspect someone them flipping town just means that people were wrong. Are there people you think Norfolk can't be aligned with? Are there pushes that you are more likely to double back on if Norfolk flips town?

[Imperium]

On the townslip, we can agree to disagree. You are basically understanding my meaning. I am essentially reading the second post like "I'm not afraid of getting KILLED by the gun, by the way, I only don't want the responsibility".

There's two possibilities:

Either he's a townie that doesn't want the gun because he's a newer player or he's overemphasizing that he wouldn't die if he got the gun because he's trying to compensate for a bad opening.

Why do you think it's way more likely that it's the latter? Why do multiple people think it's way more likely that it's the latter? Gut?

[Imperium]

What would flipping Norfolk clear up lotus?

@Cakez you can save three people who and why

Do I have to answer
I don't really have a good one nobody seems that townie so far this game

Liked this response tho.

[Imperium]

I'm liking what I'm seeing from Mush, his convictions are very strong and seem authentic.

<snip>

This is such a weird post but maybe I'm just not understanding it properly.

The first paragraph on STT reads that you agree with him on a bunch of points so he's approaching the game from a townie perspective but the paragraph on Duchess reads like he has the same reads as you so he's trying to pocket you? Like I don't understand why you having the same perspective as STT = STT town and I definitely don't understand the substance of your Duchess read like a even a little bit.

[Imperium]

I think if I shoot duchess I die

She flips red though

?????

[Imperium]

I'm liking what I'm seeing from Mush, his convictions are very strong and seem authentic.

<snip>

This is such a weird post but maybe I'm just not understanding it properly.

The first paragraph on STT reads that you agree with him on a bunch of points so he's approaching the game from a townie perspective but the paragraph on Duchess reads like he has the same reads as you so he's trying to pocket you? Like I don't understand why you having the same perspective as STT = STT town and I definitely don't understand the substance of your Duchess read like a even a little bit.

And this is probably a bit unfair with regards to the Duchess portion - I get that part of it is timing but I still don't understand how Duchess is scummy for jumping too hard on Norfolk while you're calling Norfolk scum with Duchess - seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

[Imperium]

I am scumhunting you yes cakes and I suspect your approach to Norfolk.

How is this similar to how I pushed BM in Xeno 2?

You pushed BM for really weak reasons and kept focusing on them going on some meta something.

Your push on norfolk feels really weak in the same way. I don't get the lamist argument in the least bit, and then your interpretation that he was saying he wasn't going to be scumhunting was a really bad read. Looks like you pushing a narrative rather than actually reading.

[Imperium]

Imperium's defense of Norfolk feels very unearned
I would not be surprised if Tammy is going in to help a scum buddy here

Funny that I think the way you guys are acting like he's confirmed scum is unearned.

I would not be surprised if you're bussing him here if he's scum.

I don't think you think I'm scum sugarboy.

[Imperium]

I am scumhunting you yes cakes and I suspect your approach to Norfolk.

How is this similar to how I pushed BM in Xeno 2?

You pushed BM for really weak reasons and kept focusing on them going on some meta something.

Your push on norfolk feels really weak in the same way. I don't get the lamist argument in the least bit, and then your interpretation that he was saying he wasn't going to be scumhunting was a really bad read. Looks like you pushing a narrative rather than actually reading.

Ok but clearly I'm not the only one seeing the scum signs on Norfolk
And I never said that post was declaring he wasn't scumhunting
Rather I think it's a post aimed at dissuading scumhunting in general

I know you're not. I think almost everyone has him as near confirmed scum, which is why it feels so weird to me.

[Imperium]

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

But you did.

[Imperium]

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

I think what you perceive to be scummy just turns into mutual disagreement. I find myself saying this more often but it does remain to be true. I think some things Norfolk has done is scummy, I pointed out one instance when I was explaining why I advocated his shot. I don't think

everyone

thinks he's scum actually, if I were accounting based on Ctrl+F who-mentioned-norfolk-as-good-shot it'd be like.. 3 people. First: What do I gain as scum to advocate a shot on someone like this so strongly. Secondly: You answered you didn't know how scum would be treating him so. Where does the connection lie with me being scummy/misguided, and does this equate to you believing he's town?

If he's town, you get rid of netflix and you get the day cut short handing the gun to someone who's already stated they lack confidence which is a win win for scum. Possibly going into night then shooting someone for less information again. I don't think you're approaching this game genuinely. Like at all at all.

I don't know norfolk's alignment.

[Imperium]

We're now at the point of the game where somebody is rabidly defending somebody who's barely posted

Like, can you really townread norfolk that hard? Why can't sircakez/unwnd be bussing? etc

I don't have a strong townread there. I do think it's entirely possible that cakez/unwnd could be bussing. It's what I'm trying to figure out.

[Imperium]

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

But you did.

Wat
I called the post scummy
That's scumhunting

I don't like that you claimed that he was basically saying don't scum hunt there. I don't like your commentary there because it feels like a stretch designed to build a narrative rather than actually read the person.

[Imperium]

I think after last game saying 'just shoot norfolk' is very reasonable from unwnd

I don't!

[Imperium]

Imperium's defense of Norfolk feels very unearned
I would not be surprised if Tammy is going in to help a scum buddy here

Yikes.

[Imperium]

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

I think what you perceive to be scummy just turns into mutual disagreement. I find myself saying this more often but it does remain to be true. I think some things Norfolk has done is scummy, I pointed out one instance when I was explaining why I advocated his shot. I don't think

everyone

thinks he's scum actually, if I were accounting based on Ctrl+F who-mentioned-norfolk-as-good-shot it'd be like.. 3 people. First: What do I gain as scum to advocate a shot on someone like this so strongly. Secondly: You answered you didn't know how scum would be treating him so. Where does the connection lie with me being scummy/misguided, and does this equate to you believing he's town?

If he's town, you get rid of netflix and you get the day cut short handing the gun to someone who's already stated they lack confidence which is a win win for scum. Possibly going into night then shooting someone for less information again. I don't think you're approaching this game genuinely. Like at all at all.

I don't know norfolk's alignment.

I considered the argument but I'm not the one who has the gun. Counterpoint: Norfolk is scum and then Netflix gets to shoot again. I get where you're both coming from though, you give some guy who isn't really playing/paying attention the option to kill someone and then before you know you're down 3 townies.

I already mentioned the counterpoint because yes, that's awesome if he's scum sort of, I'm not even interested in scum going out this soon because there's a whole lack of a lot of people posting. And I don't think that netflix is going to shoot this soon, so I'm not really concerned about that, I'm concerned that you're advocating it and writing him off as a lurker when the game just started. And it's very squicky coming from you because that's not the approach you've taken in the past couple games we've played together in which you've been quite a bit more conscientious in gaining reads.

[Imperium]

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

I think what you perceive to be scummy just turns into mutual disagreement. I find myself saying this more often but it does remain to be true. I think some things Norfolk has done is scummy, I pointed out one instance when I was explaining why I advocated his shot. I don't think

everyone

thinks he's scum actually, if I were accounting based on Ctrl+F who-mentioned-norfolk-as-good-shot it'd be like.. 3 people. First: What do I gain as scum to advocate a shot on someone like this so strongly. Secondly: You answered you didn't know how scum would be treating him so. Where does the connection lie with me being scummy/misguided, and does this equate to you believing he's town?

I'm also reading you as not wanting to put in big effort in this setup

Which is fair, the 14 day deadline is overkill too

Actually this offends me, I'm trying much harder this game because it's at a readable pace and I don't have to skim to the point I get fucking bored. My reads feel much more concrete and these past towngames either one or two things have happened

1) I die literally n1 for some reason
2) Wait that's it

But I died night one in both the games we played in, so if we go by past history you're safe :p

[Imperium]

sigh you guys are completely missing my point. So either I'm being unclear or you guys are just not actually comprehending what I'm saying. I think Lotus is the only one that has interacted with what I'm saying and catching what I'm meaning.

I'm not arguing that norfolk is town. I'm saying that his original posts were not that scummy to warrant being on everyone's scum lists and to get the type of pushes that cakez/unwnd/ducchess gave. So far Not Mafia has called norfolk town, Mush hasn't given a read I don't think, and then remove Norfolk himself. That leaves 8 players who have called him scum, some with reasoning that I don't buy/I think is odd.

If he is town, then he is being pushed/scumread by scum as an easy push. If not_mafia and Mush are scum, we're looking at 2 in that pool of 8. I don't currently think both of them are scum, which means more in that pool of 8.

If he is scum, there are bussers/distancers about and I'm trying to make sense of the pushes and reasoning there to try to determine who's being genuine and who's going along because it looks good. And unwnd being like yeah shoot him he's a slanker, but not taking about other ones who have as many or fewer posts than norfolk feels wrong on so many levels. Cakez pushing him in ways that make no sense whatsoever and trying to tie me to Norfolk when he's seen me push against reads and try to make sense of them in previous games is really weird as well, and I don't buy that his read is coming from a genuine place. It just feels all kinds of wrong.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Regardless of Norfolk's alignment, the reads on him are weird. I'm trying to read the people who are reading Norfolk who's reads don't read genuine to me.

[Imperium]

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

[Imperium]

I don't think Cakez is scum and my Cakez read has been pretty accurate for the games we've been in

Maybe this is the game you pocket me Cakez!

We're way too early in the game state for me to trust this read even a tiny little bit.

[Imperium]

I think the post at the top of this page is a decent enough summary for most folks. That said: if I think about it, there's some other stuff that tends to ping me but which aren't things most people are sensitive to. May as well just rewrite it all out for ease of access.

Generally speaking: Saying one thing, then saying a contradictory statement under pressure -- feels less like stating beliefs than trying to evade attention. Making baseless assertions that seem like trying to force an interpretation (e.g. the whole Norfolk scumhunting thing). General gut feeling of the play being phony, i.e. fake, but not so much "simply acting" as it is "crafted for specific effect".

More specific to how I build out reads: Apparent lack of a coherent chain of causation -- I don't see how he gets from point A to point B, it feels like it's abrupt jumps instead of actual changes in thought process. Play is "concentric" -- instead of his play changing focus at any point, it takes a specific point (in this case, "shoot Norfolk") and centers all of his play on that singular point. All play that isn't directly centered on it is pushing back on people questioning it. Hence "concentric", his play reaches ever wider circles of the playerlist but the center point never changes, indeed hasn't changed since page 1.

Because of these things, his play feels agenda-driven: he has a specific goal (shoot Norfolk) and does not attempt to search around outside of that goal. When dealing with things that are not necessarily "shoot Norfolk", his statements are not necessarily logically compatible with one another, and there is no apparent shift in belief or understanding to explain the incompatibilities (since the conclusions he comes to do NOT appear to change alongside the statements).

I liked this post, definitely seemed like some genuine scumhunting going on here. I really like the point about Cakez's play centering around nothing but shooting Norfolk and while I'm not decided it's alignment indicative for Cakez (he seems to be very talented at burying himself in holes), it's accurate and unique enough where I struggle to see it as something scum just pulled out of their ass.

[Imperium]

ATTACK ON TITAN!

So Norfolk has a handful of games in the newbie queue and exactly no completed games out of the newbie queue. He doesn't appear to be a lurker as either alignment, and he's stated in one of his newbie games that he doesn't like the pressure of being scum or a power role.

Which means his opening posts here quite frankly are either or. They could easily come from inexperienced town who doesn't want the pressure of having a gun early because they lack confidence. It could also yes come from nervous scum.

I don't think his opening posts are all that scummy because they can as easily come from town who doesn't want the responsibility of fucking up early as it can from scum who's afraid of getting shot, but I don't think there's any real way to tell the difference right this minute. I just find the super push there from his first two posts pretty scummy, and if he is scum I bet there's some bussing in there because scum love to find their partners scummy for not very scummy stuff.

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

That's best case scenario. Worst case scenario is he's actually town, given a power he doesn't want and is uncomfortable with AND we lose netflix.

Acting like it's misguided not to just go for the slanker when you can't be a slanker at the beginning of the game is really weird.

Where did I call him town Cakez?

[Imperium]

I refuse to believe this is cakez town game like woah cakez

[Imperium]

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of my questions here.

[Imperium]

oh gods cakes please be scum this game

jesus fuck christ i cannot with you.

[Imperium]

That wall is a giant fencesit basically if you're not committing to call Norfolk town

MY POINT ISN'T ABOUT NORFOLK

IT'S ABOUT THE TRASH READS ON HIM NOT SEEMING GENUINE

JESUS FUCK CAKEZ.

[Imperium]

do you have any scum reads?

Ordinarily i'd be scumreading Cakez, but he's been so transparently misrepresenting me and tunnelling that i'm leaning misguided town. Although that's the same logic

ScrewTheTells is still pinging me. A quick jump in, push the wagon and run off again: scummy.

I'm also scumleaning you, Lotus. That's related to your democracy idea that I referenced earlier.

Pedit: massive falisifying of what I said by Wheme, there.

Not really loving how perfunctory these reads are.

These reads all feel like they're checking a box - they're all shallow, one-dimensional and none of them look like he's trying to figure anything out. Hoping for more in his next burst of posting.

[Imperium]

i feel like you're interaction with me in total bad faith cakez.

How is this any different from the way I grilled gamma on his diamond sentinel read, while thinking diamond sentinel was likely to be scum, but that I thought gamma's read on him was pushing him disingenuously?

How is it?

[Imperium]

That's like saying "I don't understand townreads on Joe Schmo"
And then later going "Actually by the way I'm not declaring a read on Joe Schmo at all."

It doesn't connect logically.

It makes sense logically if you're actually playing mafia.

Joe Schmo's posts don't warrant the reads he got, someone is being disingenuous regardless of Joe Schmo's posts.

I thought we were playing mafia here and reading the whole room, my bad.

Tell me how to play this game again senpai, how am I supposed to scum hunt?

[Imperium]

i feel like you're interaction with me in total bad faith cakez.

How is this any different from the way I grilled gamma on his diamond sentinel read, while thinking diamond sentinel was likely to be scum, but that I thought gamma's read on him was pushing him disingenuously?

How is it?

I think you are scum so yeah this is not good faith
I don't remember what you're referring to, something in Smoke right?

Yes, I'm talking about smoke and literally every other game I play where the reads on someone regardless of my read on them don't make sense.

i don't think for a second you think I'm scum here, but nice try.

Anyway I'm stepping away this is a bad faith interaction on your part and I'm done with it.

[Imperium]

Give me specifics - what would flipping Norfolk solve? If a lot of people suspect someone them flipping town just means that people were wrong. Are there people you think Norfolk can't be aligned with? Are there pushes that you are more likely to double back on if Norfolk flips town?

But this ignores the details: not everyone on the Norfolk wagon is doing the same thing. In another post you said you think everyone reads Norfolk as confirmed scum. Well I'm far from that. I just think he's one of the better lynches at the moment compared to anyone else. I'm not particularly confident on anyone. If I had to give a number I'd say Norfolk is just maybe 10% above baseline probability of being scum. I mean, I wouldn't be hugely disappointed if Netflix shot someone else instead, a lot of people are dropping more substance now and I think reads on them are only gonna get stronger.

SirCakez indeed has been pushing Norfolk pretty hard. If Norfolk is town I think Cakez's the most likely scum. And town-Norfolk shouldn't need much convincing to shoot Cakez at that point. So actually, this also undermines the "Town-Norfolk's gonna shoot wrong" argument.

And if Norfolk does flip scum then uh... Imperium's zealous defense of him is kinda weird. Not decided if that is strong scum tell, but I think it's a scum tell at this point. I can see town defending a scum-lurker casually based on your reasoning, but this seems beyond that. You're defending him too hard while leaving a way out by saying stuff like

I don't know norfolk's alignment.

I just don't see many town players defending a lurker if they genuinely didn't have a town read on.

That was a question directed to Lotus. My point was that he said that a Norfolk flip was going to "clear up a lot of things" but unless he had specifics in mind than that was a false statement. Sure, it clears up the basic in that people have to find someone else to push but Lotus's post seemed to paint it as a more informative shot than anywhere else and that simply isn't true.

Im traumatized at this point by the number of people who are saying that we're rabidly defending Norfolk or defending Norfolk an unreasonable amount. We've had to explain the same shit multiple times which I'm sure makes our defense look more dedicated than it is (like of course we're not fervently town reading him - he made 4 posts on page 2 at that point and we never talked about him being town), and this game in particular doesn't seem to understand that there's a difference between me calling a push bad and calling a push wrong.

[Imperium]

This is so disingenuous
You literally wrote a wall defending Norfolk
For you to backpedal here and go "whoa I wasn't actually townreading them" feels like a lie

And in that wall she wrote "could be either or" when referring to his alignment, which is why I've been so rabidly trying to get people to offer up specifics on why they dislike our defense. If you actually read what she's saying you'll see that she's concerned with the number of people pushing Norfolk and the confidence that they're pushing him with. This doesn't mean she's defending Norfolk. It does mean that she doesn't agree with the push, but just because she doesn't have a scumread there doesn't mean that the only other possibility is a townread.

[Imperium]

That's like saying "I don't understand townreads on Joe Schmo"
And then later going "Actually by the way I'm not declaring a read on Joe Schmo at all."

It doesn't connect logically.

It makes sense logically if you're actually playing mafia.

Joe Schmo's posts don't warrant the reads he got, someone is being disingenuous regardless of Joe Schmo's posts.

I thought we were playing mafia here and reading the whole room, my bad.

Tell me how to play this game again senpai, how am I supposed to scum hunt?

Ok but
If you're saying someone should not be getting certain reads
Then that logically implies you believe the opposite thing.

Like that's not a crazy connection to make????

I'm gonna try this one more time and then I'm stepping away.

And quite frankly, if I were scum here and posturing to look good on the outcome, knowing the outcome I'd just pick a side if I'm going to be centering some of my questions around this. I might suck as scum, but I'm damn sure talented and smart enough to do that.

Norfolk makes a couple nervous sounding posts that to me don't read terribly scummy. They don't read towny either; they're just posts.

Most players call that out as scum, which hey beginning of the game call things out as scummy. However, your interpretations of the posts don't match up to the post in question, and in one case reads like a deliberate misrepresentation of his posts. Ducchess has an interpretation that reads odd to me as well. Then unwnd replaces in and starts advocating for him to be shot for weak reasons as well.

I think those reads and all the scum reads reads oddly. If he's town, scum are pushing for an easy push. If scum, people are bussing. <---------- I'm interested in these reads. I'm interested in the pushes and reads that are not genuine regardless of Norfolk's alignment, which could be anything. (although yes there is a part of me that would like to believe that his opening posts are twtbaw but I don't place a whole lot of faith in that especially with his more recent posts.)

I don't understand why this is so confusing.

[Imperium]

This is so disingenuous
You literally wrote a wall defending Norfolk
For you to backpedal here and go "whoa I wasn't actually townreading them" feels like a lie

And in that wall she wrote "could be either or" when referring to his alignment, which is why I've been so rabidly trying to get people to offer up specifics on why they dislike our defense. If you actually read what she's saying you'll see that she's concerned with the number of people pushing Norfolk and the confidence that they're pushing him with. This doesn't mean she's defending Norfolk. It does mean that she doesn't agree with the push, but just because she doesn't have a scumread there doesn't mean that the only other possibility is a townread.

Why do you/Tammy think people are "so confident" on Norfolk?
Not anywhere in this thread have i seen people expressing overtly confident scumreads on Norfolk

Your read and interpretation read oddly. Your misrepresentation of the post where you claimed he was saying that he wasn't going to scum hunt read wrong.

Duchess had an interpretation I thought was odd and didn't agree with. (I've interacted with them there about this, and I can at least see where they're coming from.)

Unwnd was arguing he was gonna slank wasn't gonna do any better so should be shot.

I found all of these pushes odd.

So are you guys all town pushing in good faith with arguments I just don't like? If so, then the people who stuck him in their scum reads but aren't really pushing are probably where the scum lie.

[Imperium]

How is my play centered around shooting Norfolk?
Like, at all?

Norfolk is your top scum suspect. You've called for him to be shot or people to vote him several times. You've freaked out at us for defending Norfolk a couple of times now. You've been involved in most Norfolk-related discussions to add fuel to the fire. You haven't been invested in anything else vaguely resembling your Norfolk passion.

[Imperium]

[Imperium]

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

[Imperium]

At this point it's not even about the Norfolk read
It feels like your play around them is incredibly posturey and setting yourself up to look good whether it flips town or scum

Makes zero sense for you to have this interpretation.

Posture, as I understand it, is stance without substance. We haven't really taken a stance on Norfolk but we have provided plenty of substance. How is us digging @ people pushing Norfolk but not taking a stance setting ourselves up to look good?

[Imperium]

Uhhhh I never declared him my top SR or for him to be shot.
It's because it seems to be the only things people want to talk about. Just now I tried to step away from it and again got dragged back into it by Mush and you. I don't want to press this point anymore.

You haven't declared him your top scumread but you've implied that he's your top scumread. If you're arguing otherwise you just really want me to fall to the dark side.

[Imperium]

You never did actually call him town directly yes that's my point
The impression of anyone reading that wall without context would be that you townread the slot
Because why would you go so out of your way to defend someone who is null?

The purpose of the wall was to attack the reads on him. We're going out of our way to attack the reads on him because we believe that we will be able to get better reads on the people pushing him (and maybe we will see something in Norfolk as a result).

The side effect of that attack is that Norfolk gets some protection from us but that doesn't mean we think he's town and it doesn't mean that defense was the main purpose of our posting.

[Imperium]

That wall is a giant fencesit basically if you're not committing to call Norfolk town

That wall isn't a read on Norfolk. It is outlining issues with the people pushing him. If you think it's a read on Norfolk then you'll be sorely disappointed on the lack of conclusions in that wall. If you read the wall you would have realized this.

[Imperium]

That's like saying "I don't understand townreads on Joe Schmo"
And then later going "Actually by the way I'm not declaring a read on Joe Schmo at all."

It doesn't connect logically.

Not understanding a townread on someone means you aren't townreading them.

It doesn't mean you are scumreading them. It means that you aren't townreading them.

[Imperium]

Then that logically implies you believe the opposite thing.

Like that's not a crazy connection to make????

It wouldn't be a crazy connection to make of three possibilities didn't exist. But null reads do exist.

[Imperium]

I don't think that everyone believes you're defending Norfolk Imperium

At least, I didn't get that observation. The way I see this argument right now is kinda Cakez insinuating behavior through the lense of 'oh, you're just excusing yourself and in turn this is scummy', meanwhile, you think Cakez is badfaithing you on the notion of not being able to see that you're not trying to make an excuse.

It's a very roundabout argument between the two of you where nobody wins

I wrote my clarification post because last night dunn claimed rabid defense, and then today tell's guy claimed it was defense and something when I clarified to dunn that I didn't know his alignment. Which cakez responded was a badpedal and a lie due to me previously town reading him which led us here.

[Imperium]

Why do you/Tammy think people are "so confident" on Norfolk?
Not anywhere in this thread have i seen people expressing overtly confident scumreads on Norfolk

This isn't a significant part of our issue with people pushing Norfolk, but a read that is strong enough where you ask someone to vote with you on it is a read that is strong enough to be scrutinized.

[Imperium]

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

I feel like I have answered this.
Nothing content wise in the defense was bad.
I'm looking at it in the context of the game.

You still have not addressed it. Waiting for specifics and "in the context of the game" is not specifics.

What part of the defense did you dislike in the context of the game? What part of the defense was unreasonable in the context of the game?

[Imperium]

I thought posture meant setting up positions artificially in a way that is looking to help yourself in the game state.

I;e someone refusing to declare a read on a popular wagon that is imminently going to flip

If posture is setting up positions, then how in the sweet shiny Jesus is not taking a position posturing?

[Imperium]

Uhhhh I never declared him my top SR or for him to be shot.
It's because it seems to be the only things people want to talk about. Just now I tried to step away from it and again got dragged back into it by Mush and you. I don't want to press this point anymore.

You haven't declared him your top scumread but you've implied that he's your top scumread. If you're arguing otherwise you just really want me to fall to the dark side.

????????????????????????????????????????????

You asked how you centered your game about Norfolk.

I pointed out how you had Norfolk as top SR for a while and talked a lot about him.

You then seemed to argue that you didn't have Norfolk as a top SR because you didn't explicitly say it which is a bananas argument to make.

[Imperium]

I'd like to see more from him too.

[Imperium]

I am not making another post about Norfolk until he posts again or something materially changes otherwise
This is a waste of time and other people need to talk

I don't need you to respond to every post that I make, but I do need you to read them. I would like a response to #507.

[Imperium]

And an ACTUAL response to #507 where you make an effort to explain where you're coming from, not the throwaway "replying for the sake of replying" stuff that I've been getting so far.

[Imperium]

If he's town, you get rid of netflix and you get the day cut short handing the gun to someone who's already stated they lack confidence which is a win win for scum.

Possibly going into night then shooting someone for less information again.

I don't think you're approaching this game genuinely. Like at all at all.

I don't understand the bolded part here.

But my basic thoughts regarding this was that I felt we were being led into a Norfolk shot (this doesn't necessarily mean Norfolk is town). But in the event that he is town, then I agree that we just die and scum gets a win-win because now Norfolk (a low confidence town player) would have the gun and they could potentially manipulate his next shot.

If he were a goon, then scum can immediately try to eliminate another threatening town slot before they gain traction.

If he were a godfather, we just die and then scum choose their next townbearer.

My bolded was basically your "if he was a goon..." It felt like he was urging you to take that shot early, which even if goon would potentially cause us to lose another town super early. I realize that they don't have to kill another town right away, so maybe they wait until they see who is threatening, but that's what I meant there.

[Imperium]

Can I get an outsider opinion on Lotus v Duchess? I can't put a pin in either person's alignment and its really bothering me.

I got nothin. Was planning to reread them and their interaction tomorrow to see if I'd get something then.

[Imperium]

And I don't think that netflix is going to shoot this soon

My partner is actually itching to shoot somebody, and the only thing that would keep me from stopping him right now is you.

I still want to give you a fair shake at getting your thoughts out here. But us shooting here basically means I [we] have accepted that one or both of us could very well die.

If you're ready to shoot then shoot.

This feels like a baby game state to me in that I don't have a lot of reads I feel super comfortable with. I wouldn't mind a Norfolk shot at this point but I think it'd be smarter if you let more posts happen. If you're shooting outside of that then you're seeing things that I'm not.

[Imperium]

Cakez
STT
Mush
--
RLotus
Imperium
Wheme
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper
Duchess

I just went back to Tenet to look at your reads list there, and we're in the exact same place as we were there. lol

[Imperium]

Like right now we're at a point in our relationship where you're asking me if I'm ready to have kids and I'm not even ready to move in together - you're way ahead of me at the moment if you're ready for significant action so if you're waiting on our account you might drive yourself a bit crazy?

[Imperium]

My rack and stack is basically useless at this point so I won't be partaking in your game either D:

[Imperium]

I wouldn't mind a Norfolk shot

...

Feel free to read our page-long exchange with Cakez.
Or any of our posts, really.

[Imperium]

My rack and stack is basically useless at this point so I won't be partaking in your game either D:

This either might be in response to me saying lol getting a stacked readslist out of me.

Though I did consider being cheeky and giving you a reads list by post count.

[Imperium]

Cakez
STT
Mush
--
RLotus
Imperium
Wheme
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper
Duchess

I just went back to Tenet to look at your reads list there, and we're in the exact same place as we were there. lol

If you end up in the middle of my d1 reads that just usually means I need more time to sort you in my head

I'm just chuckling at the same placement. I don't expect you to read me well.

[Imperium]

This feels like a baby game state to me in that I don't have a lot of reads I feel super comfortable with. I wouldn't mind a Norfolk shot at this point but I think it'd be smarter if you let more posts happen. If you're shooting outside of that then you're seeing things that I'm not.

I'm actually trying to get Notty to shoot outside of Norfolk specifically because I feel like this is what scum wants from us and I'm being indignant.

Also, I don't get the same obvscum feeling everyone else seems to have. Notty has concerns though.

ok good

[Imperium]

I wouldn't mind a Norfolk shot

...

Feel free to read our page-long exchange with Cakez.
Or any of our posts, really.

I thought your whole thing was that you dont read Norfolk one way or the other really, but are against him being shot because you are using other people's reads of him to solve them. I guess I misunderstood all that.

And you also seemed to disagree with me that solving Norfolk gives us a lot of information.

I felt that way before his most recent burst of posting where he tipped from null to lean scum. I still find people's Norfolk reads more informative than Norfolk's posting itself but that's not new.

I do still think that shooting Norfolk won't tell us shit but that doesn't make him a bad shot.


A good portion of this is also due to hydra'ing and I apologize for that - my partner and I have differing posting styles and while our opinions are pretty much in sync at the moment we do have nuances that differ.

[Imperium]

His posts today were disappointing.

[Imperium]

I’m v disappointed bc I specifically requested Norfolk to do things and I got ignored

His posts today were disappointing.

[Imperium]

*sigh*

[Imperium]

You've scumpinged and townpinged probably in like two posts now since that readlist

I mean, I literally just explained Tammy v Brian dynamics to my partner, so Tammy's posts here made me chuckle a bit. I get it though.

We have dynamics?

[Imperium]

We have dynamics?

Maybe I'm just imagining them.

Either way, he should now have an idea of how I treat you in future games.

Ah, I think I understand. I misread the original as coming from notscience and I was a bit confused.

[Imperium]

My dream is an Imperium shot because if they're scum like I think here it will be very difficult to get people to do it

Dude i left my scum range in the dust a long time ago.

[Imperium]

Definitely not loving the way that Lotus is pushing Duchess.

[Imperium]

Pew pew Dunn tbh

Why?

[Imperium]

My dream is an Imperium shot because if they're scum like I think here it will be very difficult to get people to do it

It will be hard to convince people to shoot us because we would be a solidly horrible shot.

[Imperium]

My dream is an Imperium shot because if they're scum like I think here it will be very difficult to get people to do it

It will be hard to convince people to shoot us because we would be a solidly horrible shot.

Also this post is just independently scummy outside of our ongoing discourse

If you shoot us during the day then my opening posts as gunbearer will be berating you for the AUDACITY.

Luckily I'm pretty sure town!Cakez is the only person in this playerlist bad enough to shoot us and I'm not yet entirely convinced town!Cakez is a thing.

I might be getting there simply because of the level of ridiculousness coming out of you this game but I'm not there yet.

[Imperium]

It will be hard to convince people to shoot us because we would be a solidly horrible shot.

I think you'd make a great first shot.

?

[Imperium]

I thought you guys wanted to break the record?

[Imperium]

It will be hard to convince people to shoot us because we would be a solidly horrible shot.

I think you'd make a great first shot.

?

I told Notty that if we thought you were scum, we should shoot you first. That way if we're wrong, you just get the gun and get to live until you shoot a Godfather/Townie.

But then you die and I want you around.

Though not gonna lie having the power and shutting up cake's ridiculousness would be pretty awesome.

[Imperium]

You did, and I'd be a little surprised if you really thought we were scum. I do expect Notty to be a bit paranoid due to recent games though.

[Imperium]

Luckily I'm pretty sure town!Cakez is the only person in this playerlist bad enough to shoot us and I'm not yet entirely convinced town!Cakez is a thing.

Also c'mon I know you're above insulting me like this as town
Not good AtE

I'm not a perfect person

[Imperium]

Why does everyone townread Mush?

I should go to sleep. I saw the first part of your name and read nacho, and was about to remind you that I literally just explained that and my fears about it before realizing it was you guys.

I, in part, and town leaning her because some of the ways she questioned and talked to whemestar and me reminds me a lot of me as town a long time ago in a way that I couldn't really accomplish as scum. This is a dangerous reason to townread someone though I know because this has bit me in the ass before. Just because I have limitations in my ability to play scum because drawing scum sucks doesn't mean someone else will.

Other than that, I kind of liked the way she's described her play style and what she looks for. Does that make sense. I'm a sucker for self-meta though, so that probably won't be a strong reason for anyone else.

The little kind of setting traps? or little things that give her information, I've also kind of liked in a way.

It's not a strong read because I don't think my reasons are very solid. I didn't agree with her whemestar points or really part of the cake one about the voting.

OH wait I liked her reaction to ABR calling her obvtown. In the moment, it was a post that just felt good.

[Imperium]

I think she is way too brazen to be scum here

I got the impression Mush was fanning the flames of your 1v1 with Tammy.

am I about to be rick rolled Not Mafia?

[Imperium]

I think she is way too brazen to be scum here

I got the impression Mush was fanning the flames of your 1v1 with Tammy.

Hmm. I'll go back and read that tomorrow. I get pretty focused when I'm frustrated.

[Imperium]

Pew pew Dunn tbh

Why?

https://youtu.be/991UM2-Fww0?t=10

I get that but can you tell me why that's your opinion?

I ask because I'm wondering what you're seeing that I'm not.

[Imperium]

I find myself doing that whole 'observant sidelining' thing I kinda get annoyed at myself for doing...

I find myself doing that hyper posting thing that I get annoyed at myself for doing...

[Imperium]

I liked a couple Cakez posts last night, and as we were laying down for bed last night Nacho said he thought cakez might be town after all, and my gut in liking some of his posts is at odds with my brain and the way he's been interacting with me and norfolk.

Cakez - If you are town here, you are super misreading me, misinterpreting and misrepresenting my posts. Misinterpreting me is one thing, but the misrepresentation feels purposeful and it feels like you're throwing the kitchen sink of misreps at me. So, like yesterday when I simplified and clarified the position I took earlier about the people reading norfolk, you called it a backpedal and lie, except I literally just simplified what I had previously stated. I didn't change any position, and it felt like even after pointing that out, you just decided to move the goal posts on me instead of recognizing that you misread or misinterpreted. And that feels scummy to me and completely unlike any way you've ever interacted with me in a game. It feels like what you were doing with Battle Mage in xeno when you were scum.

I literally turned to nacho several times yesterday and asked him if I was the crazy one because I don't think my position and points are that difficult to understand. I do not understand how if you are actually reading my posts in good faith that you are coming to the conclusions you are. I don't care if you suspect me; well I mean I don't particularly like being suspected when I'm town but it goes with the game, but I don't like when it feels super purposeful and it feels that way here. And not gonna lie, there's a part of me that thinks you're doing this to interfere with any influence we might have this game.

This is a reach out. It's not the greatest of reach outs because I don't like feeling misrepresented and then attacked for those misrepresentations nor do I trust your intentions and I'm begrudgingly admitting that even with that you might be town based on a few posts I have liked. But if those few posts are correct and were are both town, this game has a chance to get fucked sideways, and I don't want that. So, if you are town, please consider that you've completely misunderstood me.

Luckily I'm pretty sure town!Cakez is the only person in this playerlist bad enough to shoot us and I'm not yet entirely convinced town!Cakez is a thing.

Also c'mon I know you're above insulting me like this as town
Not good AtE

This is just a little example. This is not AtE, this is not even AtE's little brother. This is nacho trolling you. Even if it isn't him trolling you it's still not AtE.

But why would you think either of us would be above insulting you as town. I mean nacho would probably troll you and say this as scum or town, so it's not really all that alignment indicative for him. But if you thought this was me, why would you think it's more likely to come from scum? That makes absolutely no sense at all. I don't like actual insults and I don't like seeing people insulted, but I'm not perfect and when I get frustrated with people in a mafia game I do sometimes say things out of frustration that aren't very nice, and it's almost always when I'm town. I don't get frustrated in the same way as scum unless I feel personally attacked.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here
I think right now if Imp is scum here they are very worries about me mainly because the setup empowers me even if no one else believes my read

This is one of the posts that I gut liked you for, but woah are you soooooo not understanding anything about me at all. You clearly don't understand my scum game or how I think or feel about scum. I hate playing scum with a passion but I don't get super worried as scum, nor would I be worried about you. That is not a dig at you, I just wouldn't be worried. Even if you had the gun and were going to shoot me, I still wouldn't be worried.

In a world where I'm scum here, I decided to give the gun to the hydra who I believe reads me best in the game. This is an objective truth, and especially in this playerlist. Brain knows that I have respect for his ability to read me; I've talked about it before. I think notscience is also good at reading me, but I think that notty is probably going to be a little paranoid or less certain about reading friends this moment due to tenet and the college normal. So, if I'm scum, I agreed to give the gun to the people I think can read me the best and who is going into this game with probably some hesitation on town reading me in the first place, which means I've already gone into the game knowing that I could end up getting shot first if I'm unable to fool them. So, in this world, you don't concern me at all as I've already made contingency plans for going out first. In this world I've decided to make associatives to fuck with the shots that come after. I, in fact, expect to go out first in every scum game I play because I feel and have always felt super naked and obvious as scum.

In neither that make believe world or this real one am I concerned about you shooting me. You don't have a hero solve, you're just wrong.

[Imperium]

From more likely town to more likely scum:

SirCakez
RLotus
Dunnstral
unwnd
Duchess
WhemeStar
Rockhopper
Imperium
MUSHSHAGANA
Not_Mafia
Norfolk Boy1

Note: a lot of things could swing wildly if conditions change. For example, Imperium and Cakez could switch spots depending on Norfolk's alignment.

MUSH is less scummy since my last post. Mostly due to the sheer effort that writing those walls would take...

MUSHSHAGANA, do you have any games you've played where you're scum? (others feel free to link me games if MUSH doesn't answer this, I don't know a fast way to search for this)

The Imperium-SirCakez war seems genuinely heated. I think they're on different teams (leaning scum on imperium for previous reasons), or they're just REALLY emotionally tunnel-visioned if they're both town. I hope it's not the latter. If you're town and you're reading this, take a deep breath lol. It'll be for the better.

Your previous reasons were based on misinterpreting my posts.

And I don't really like the Imperium and Cakez could switch spots depending on Norfolk's alignment. It might not be a scummy thought but I don't like it.

Nothing should change for your placement on me or Cakez depending on Norfolk's alignment. If town, maaybe Cakez? if you think his push is a bad faith push, but definitely not me. Think it's based on misinterpreting my position.

[Imperium]

Imperium can I be your sheep

baaaaah

[Imperium]

^^^

Why I'm town leaning Mush, netflix

[Imperium]

From more likely town to more likely scum:

SirCakez
RLotus
Dunnstral
unwnd
Duchess
WhemeStar
Rockhopper
Imperium
MUSHSHAGANA
Not_Mafia
Norfolk Boy1

Note: a lot of things could swing wildly if conditions change. For example, Imperium and Cakez could switch spots depending on Norfolk's alignment.

MUSH is less scummy since my last post. Mostly due to the sheer effort that writing those walls would take...

MUSHSHAGANA, do you have any games you've played where you're scum? (others feel free to link me games if MUSH doesn't answer this, I don't know a fast way to search for this)

The Imperium-SirCakez war seems genuinely heated. I think they're on different teams (leaning scum on imperium for previous reasons), or they're just REALLY emotionally tunnel-visioned if they're both town. I hope it's not the latter. If you're town and you're reading this, take a deep breath lol. It'll be for the better.

Oh Mush's last post reminded me I had another question about this post. Why is Mush the only person you asked for a meta link for?

Also, it's pretty easy to find. Just click on the username, search their topics, and hunt through the topics for a scum game. Nice mods keep their first post updated.

[Imperium]

Cakez
STT
Mush
--
RLotus
Imperium
Wheme
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper
Duchess

I just went back to Tenet to look at your reads list there, and we're in the exact same place as we were there. lol

If you end up in the middle of my d1 reads that just usually means I need more time to sort you in my head

I'm just chuckling at the same placement. I don't expect you to read me well.

You've scumpinged and townpinged probably in like two posts now since that readlist

Yeah you could be right, but at some point with a read like that you have to tell yourself 'not enough data' instead of assuming you can pull data out of your ass

It feels odd that you felt the need to explain this when I was just chuckling at them being the same in placement.

If you had scum pings though you could interact with me, and get that data to sort it out.

[Imperium]

Where did I say I wouldn't give them the gun?

[Imperium]

So this post
I want to preface this by saying I DO NOT WANT TO RESTART THIS ARGUMENT
However I did say I would respond to it

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

I feel like I have answered this.
Nothing content wise in the defense was bad.
I'm looking at it in the context of the game.

You still have not addressed it. Waiting for specifics and "in the context of the game" is not specifics.

What part of the defense did you dislike in the context of the game? What part of the defense was unreasonable in the context of the game?

I feel you are not getting what I'm saying.
In the content of the initial wall about Norfolk itself, the reasons you use to claim the scumreads are undeserved are fine (although obviously I disagree). I can see the logic and arguments.
My dislike of the wall doesn't come from the reasoning used, but the fence-sitty aspects of it. It doesn't make sense to me to go to the lengths you did in that wall just to declare them as a nullread anyways (as I've said many many times). More than once in the wall you basically go "well that could be town or it could be scum"

Now it's looking like a non-zero chance Norfolk is getting shot here. If he flips red then you can say you were never actually defending him. If he flips town then you can say you were correct with your defense and go after the people you were shading in the wall. Regardless of outcome, it sets you up for the future. And it doesn't feel like a genuine opinion, but an out.

It sets me up to look like shit in the future regardless of his flip.

[Imperium]

So, if I'm scum, I agreed to give the gun to the people I think can read me the best and who is going into this game with probably some hesitation on town reading me in the first place, which means I've already gone into the game knowing that I could end up getting shot first if I'm unable to fool them. So, in this world, you don't concern me at all as I've already made contingency plans for going out first. In this world I've decided to make associatives to fuck with the shots that come after. I, in fact, expect to go out first in every scum game I play because I feel and have always felt super naked and obvious as scum.

This seemed to imply that @Tammy.

No, that was not what I was getting at. Quite frankly, I don’t know what I’d do. I might give them the gun I might not. I don’t know.

You said I was worried about you. I told you what my mindset would be in the world I was scum and gave them the gun as it relates to what I was worried about.

This is part of my problem. You keep saying I’m saying doing things I’m not.

[Imperium]

How so Tammy?

Because I can’t claim any credit because I didn’t take a stance. If he flips scum, I look like shit for pushing and questioning the scum reads on him. I look like his partner who tried to get somebody else flipped.

If he flips town, I get no credit except from people who’ve misunderstood my point, but since I didn’t actually call him town I look like I’m willing to push there depending on the wind.

[Imperium]

I think there could be a scum in Duchess v Lotus but honestly their posts are so blah to me I just can't get a grasp on it at all.

There’s a part of me concerned about some theater there. Nacho doesn’t quite like the way lotus is pushing there.

[Imperium]

I think there could be a scum in Duchess v Lotus but honestly their posts are so blah to me I just can't get a grasp on it at all.

There’s a part of me concerned about some theater there. Nacho doesn’t quite like the way lotus is pushing there.

What about the way im pushing?

I’m not sure. He made a post last night saying that, but I haven’t had a chance to talk to him about it. Hopefully he’ll explain it when he gets home from work tonight.

[Imperium]

Yeah I’m done this is useless. I don’t even know where the goalposts are anymore. You keep moving them.

For the record, no I wasn’t thinking that at the time because I’m torn and those are my real actual genuine town thoughts.

If I were scum, I absolutely would be thinking about how my posts are coming across. I’m not dumb.

But I’m done.

[Imperium]

Does anyone have any questions for me

I’m kind of ready for someone to get shot

I know you’re scum reading duchess, but what do you think of lotus’ reasoning?

[Imperium]

I just want to stop being misrepped to hell and back.

It is impossible to be understood when someone refuses to interact with you in good faith, Yes it is.

[Imperium]

Zukokai - I get you want to do your sitback thing and play your games, but you should jump into the fray at some point.

Sorry!

[Imperium]

I had a response to STT but I deleted it it's whatever. I'm just going to be content to be completely misunderstood and or misrepped this game. Whatever. Either town is just missing every fucking point I make or scum is just trying to irritate the fuck out of me to tilt me, and you know what HAVE FUN.

STT - Think your paranoia on the meta thing is probably misplaced. I understand that I really do; that kinda thing always makes me think scum in the back of my mind, but after seeing someone be town almost every time that statement is made, I don't think it's really alignment indicative anymore.

[Imperium]

I don’t think I want to shoot Musha either.

Brian and I did discuss shooting Tammycho because it either flips them or gives the gun to two of the players I’d most want to have it

I’m currently wrestling with my stack rank not accounting for me getting the gun and that concerns me a ton.

Do you scum read me? I don't think I'm having a totally off game, but if you're thinking that perhaps I am.

[Imperium]

That means I don’t have any of the people I could see picking me low enough on it.

Tammy are you still around? Do you think this is a dumb rabbit hole to dig into?

I don't know. It's something I've been trying to figure out myself. I thought that if you were given the gun purposefully, they might have been planning to kill us the first chance they got based on potential overlap.

I didn't give you the gun.

Cakez is I don't know. He's either town who decided I was scum early in RVS, I was just looking back at that, and he's confirm biasing everything I write and missing every point I make and moving goal posts because he's just that confirm biased. People do do that, and some posts do feel somewhat townish, but man I don't know.

Dunnstral doesn't feel like scum to me, but I don't know if I'm writing him off too easily. We were in the anon dance game together, and he replaced into a scum slot and the way he pushed things were just really wrong, so I've been looking for pushes that feel weird and I don't see it. Right now he feels more like he did in xeno and tenet. Not a strong read, but.

Norfolk I'm not sure about. I don't think that the opening posts deserved the push they got, I didn't like yesterday's posts that much and I thought he might have been appeasing Cakez by calling him misguided town, but today's posts felt a little better. I'm going to continue to fence sit here. I know that's really weird for me to do, but that's where I am.

So, yeah I don't know. Numbers wise, there should be scum in there right? But I don't know where to place it right now with any certainty.

[Imperium]

Not really anymore

I definitely started you guys at the bottom of my list when I saw we got the gun

Who else would give us the gun? Do you think scum would rng it?

Yeah, I realized you probably thought that after our RVS interaction. I was like hmm they feel weird, and then that night I was like OH they think we gave them the gun.

I don't know.

[Imperium]

And I'm not really sure that we're dealing with secret alts either. I've looked at most people so far, and the people with newer join dates seem to actually be newer players.

[Imperium]

Oh I forgot about Not_Mafia, but I have no idea there.

[Imperium]

Quiet Rockhopper isn't the gung ho town Rockhopper that I know.

Subject: Newbie 2037 - Game Over

that's cool, i respect that. i think its very much possible that an experienced mafia player can experiment with different playstyles here, in which case metareading them wouldn't be as effective, if that makes any sense.

Don't hang your hat on meta. I'm amazed how much stock is put into it on this site.

Hm

Oh I thought it was cakez that made that original Quiet rockhopper post.

(I saw that meta quote when I meta'd Norfolk the other day.)

[Imperium]

Tammy did you happen to peruse any of Norfolk’s completed isos? And I know we’re being led to shoot there and I’m not intending on doing it just yet, but there was something pretty glaring in difference between his play here

Ninja-
It’s weird tho isn’t it? I did find a rockhopper game where he did the same basic thing- flurry of five then got replaced as a VT

No my dive wasn't really that extensive. I mostly looked to see if how many times he had ever rolled scum and if outside a newbie and to see how active he was. I super super skimmed just to see if him seeming nervous at the beginning of the game was alignment indicative. My take away was that he doesn't like pressure, so his nervousness was null.

I haven't looked back since he started making posts since the first four.

[Imperium]

Subject: Newbie 2037 - Game Over

Let’s make things interesting with some RQS

For those that don’t know, RQS is called Random Questioning Stage and it has its advantages. And this is for everyone in the playerlist. Non answers get scumread.

1. What is your overall mafia experience? Not just on this site.
2. Do you prefer playing scum/wolf or town/village?
3. In your opinion, what are some of the top things to look for when scumhunting?
4. When townhunting?
5. Is it easy or difficult for you to lie?

=======================

1. I’ve been playing the wolf version of mafia since 2006. Mafiascum.net for 5 months.
2. Town/Village
3. Apathy, inconsistencies, passiveness/aggressiveness giving the context, perfect posting, and voting patterns.
4. Disagreeableness, having one’s own mind and gut feel. Oh and a little scumminess never hurt.
5. Yes. I find it very difficult to lie and work to just not do it.

RQS is a new one to me and isn't on the Mafia Wiki.

To answer your questions:

1.I played a handful of basic games on a wrestling forum 10 years ago. This is my 3rd game on this website.

2.Town, specifically VT. I struggle with the pressure that comes with a scum or power role and just prefer to be able to post unfiltered without stressing over what people will read into my posts.

3.I'm not going to share the tells that I look for, but I immediately scumread people who post something like

Non answers get scumread.

4.Application of logic

5.Easy to post, but I agonise over it for an age before posting.

I was taking the nervousness about getting a gun too early from here.

[Imperium]

I was taking the "struggle with the pressure that comes from a scum or power role" to mean that as scum he'd be nervous and as town he'd be nervous to get the gun too early.

[Imperium]

Who do you think I want to shoot?

not_mafia or unwnd?

I really don't know who you want to shoot lol

[Imperium]

Nacho didn't elaborate on why he didn't like lotus's interaction with duchess. I'm concerned there's theater about, but I haven't made myself reread their interaction today like I keep trying to get myself to do.

Norfolk's posts once he starts to post beyond the first four, which were all there were when I was trying to find out if his early posts were alignment indicative, don't have the inquisitiveness of the other posts in that game we've both posted from. I think Nacho called his posts last night perfunctory? and some of that feels similar to the game you have experience with him in. But take this with a grain of salt, this little meta dive was not extensive it was just to see if he had different posting styles. The most inquisitiveness he's shown here is when he tries to interact with not_mafia.

[Imperium]

I just want one of the early Norfolk pushers to be scum, regardless of Norfolk's alignment, so I can point back and go see I had a point suckers.

[Imperium]

If not, you can point to me and go the point was dumb sucker.

[Imperium]

Nacho's driving home from work thoughts based on last night's posts.

Norfolk's pop in was scummy.
Not in love with Lotus' interaction with Duchess but not actual real read not in love, just something he noticed to look back at.
STT's point where he would swap cakez and us based on Norfolk's was super scummy.

[Imperium]

He hasn't read anything today; just thought I'd share the thoughts he gave me right now. He probably won't post tonight though.

[Imperium]

Probably Wheme

This is read I need to spend some time on.

I like the feel of some of his posts, but he's exactly the type of player I go he feels fine and don't actually pay attention to and slips by me for a few days.

[Imperium]

the waiting sucks

[Imperium]

I was confused by elo, and I think in trying to fix the balance so it's not so bad for scum it made it easier for scum to win. I didn't realize scum win condition was making up half the game. So, with three misses we lose?

[Imperium]

I don’t understand why you guys gotta rush things these days.

[Imperium]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT SHOOT FOR AT LEAST 96 HOURS. PLEASE MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE HAS POSTED ENOUGH TO GET A SOLID READ ON THEM BEFORE SHOOTING. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. Scum have advantage with regards to momentum early. Once we shoot two of them life becomes extraordinarily difficult for them but until that point they have the advantage. Please don't hero shoot and give townies time to develop solid reads on a majority of a playerlist and please be patient and let lurkslots resolve via replacement or being forced to post via harsh prod timers.

Duchess, if you're town here, you will pretty much make us or break us here. If you're town here it's up to you to show RLotus that you are also town to prevent yet another misfire. His big problem with you is lack of original scumhunting so I would highly recommend you try piecing together a readslist on everyone with enough posts to get anything on. I don't think that you continuing your 1v1 with him is going to get you anything but a bullet.

Cakez I feel like the more you convince yourself you're right on Imperium the more it would play into their hand. Like, you're afraid if you're not the one to catch Imperium no one will. I townread you for that amongst other things, but at some point if Imperium is just bigbadscum then other mates would be paying closer attention if they felt Imperium was in trouble, as I'm certain the gun has been waved over their head.

This doesn't absolve anything, but I do think right now they're probably doing other things.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here
I think right now if Imp is scum here they are very worries about me mainly because the setup empowers me even if no one else believes my read

If we were threatened by your read on us, I imagine that my approach to you would be more diplomatic and less dickish. It would not be in my best interest to continue our mind-numbing 1v1 because that would make it more likely for you to dig your heels in. Unfortunately, we're town in the inenviable position of having to read you - meaning that I actually need you to spend time thinking about responses to us and I need to climb into your head a little bit to make you uncomfortable. Either that and we're scum godfather or we're just waiting for a goon to get shot so we can put bullets in you.

From more likely town to more likely scum:

SirCakez
RLotus
Dunnstral
unwnd
Duchess
WhemeStar
Rockhopper
Imperium
MUSHSHAGANA
Not_Mafia
Norfolk Boy1

Note: a lot of things could swing wildly if conditions change. For example,

Imperium and Cakez could switch spots depending on Norfolk's alignment.

MUSH is less scummy since my last post. Mostly due to the sheer effort that writing those walls would take...

MUSHSHAGANA, do you have any games you've played where you're scum? (others feel free to link me games if MUSH doesn't answer this, I don't know a fast way to search for this)

The Imperium-SirCakez war seems genuinely heated. I think they're on different teams (leaning scum on imperium for previous reasons), or they're just REALLY emotionally tunnel-visioned if they're both town. I hope it's not the latter. If you're town and you're reading this, take a deep breath lol. It'll be for the better.

I'm struggling seeing the Cakez-Us dichotomy as a genuine one.

For one, the bolded in the above quote freaks me the fuck out because of the magnitude of the swing. I get suspecting us if Norfolk-scum and suspecting Cakez if Norfolk town; I get how that can affect his read a bit. I don't think that one flip should move his strongest townread to his fourth scumread or vice-versa. Secondly, I find that scum LOVE setting up Scum vs Town dichotomies (gives them two lynches in a row to push if needed!) and this is a bastard form of that. His current thought is if Norfolk is town, then Cakez is scum. If Cakez is town, then Imperium is scum.

I know that we're town. I'm thinking (Tammy has more doubts than I do) that Cakez is town. I don't know about Norfolk, but if he's town here, that's STT setting up three lynches in a row. That's ridiculous.

Finally, I don't like the Mush read. I don't like the time he's spending on her and I don't think that the words he types about her properly reflects her position in the town list. He seems to think that scum doesn't put in the work like Mush already did this game but he's still unwilling to put her above Rockhopper who hasn't posted shit this game? I struggle to believe that. I feel it's more likely that STT is scum who feels obligated to show his work on that Mush read changes so wants to do a bunch of meta bullshit so he doesn't have to push a universal townread.

[Imperium]

Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who townreads STT, I'm going to be looking through the lists. I would very much like you to explain yourselves. In great, exhaustive detail. Really beat the hell out of your belief that STT is town, /challenge yourself/, because I will throw down a /solid/ wager that you are wrong. Say, winner gets to control the loser's first shot when they inevitably get the gun (because this is gonna look /real/ bad for whoever is wrong, and they shouldn't trust themselves to hit shit anyway). I'm not joking or exaggerating, STT looks awful here, and you can check Death Curse to see that I'm right. ISO Zdenek, and Ctrl+F "MUSH". Recognize that Zdenek was replaced by Frederick A Campbell, who was our very first scum kill in Death Curse, and opened the door to red flip city. I am putting my bet down, I want anyone who thinks I'm wrong to put their money where their mouth is and/or eat lead.

Liked this post. I'm definitely in the same boat. I really really would love to see STT get blasted to seventh heaven.

I DO NOT WANT STT SHOT RIGHT NOW.

I WANT ROCKHOPPER/NOT-MAFIA/OTHERS TO DO SHIT OR GET REPLACED BEFORE A SHOT IS MADE.

But if I believe that if Lotus wants to hit scum then he wants to shoot STT.