Open 825 - PYP X/Y: HoS_S [game over!]

[Miss Midnight]

why?

I don't think Enchant read past iterations of PYP if he thought people would always first pick vig. I think scum almost certainly would have looked at what numbers and roles people have picked in past games.

Good logic. Early townreads for me on you, Enchant, and Bee.

VOTE: ManateeGal

[Miss Midnight]

... Only i here tried to being higher in quoue to get best roles?

No, I did this as well. This is my fourth PYP game (all different variants, but same drafting mechanism), and I have picked 9 each time, with an average draft position of 3.5.

It's quite a nice strategy you've carved out for yourself. Anyone who actually goes back to check previous games will probably take notice of it and thus will avoid it, so your only risk is either accidental collision from those who don't check or notice, or intentional collision for some other purpose. I very briefly considered the latter, but decided against it. Feels almost like some out of game advantage that you've got, really. Though, no more so than how much any given player's meta contributes to their benefit in a game.

[Miss Midnight]

Wah.

No one supports me.

Hey, I've got your back on this one, personally. Not sure what's up with the sushi hate.

[Miss Midnight]

you know, i was so excited to play with CSF again, too.

Is there something stopping that? You make it sound like she died, or worse: replaced out.

[Miss Midnight]

Good logic. Early townreads for me on you, Enchant, and Bee.

Can you explain the Bee townread? Thanks.

@Miss Midnight

-Harvey

There's nothing compelling or convincing that I could tell you at this stage. I just got a towny feeling reading her posts up to that point.

[Miss Midnight]

Anyways, who's down to kill ManateeGal? Just a few more votes to get the wagon through.

[Miss Midnight]

There's nothing compelling or convincing that I could tell you at this stage. I just got a towny feeling reading her posts up to that point.

Sure. I don't need compelling/convincing anyway, I just wanna look at the thought processes.

Any thoughts on ManateeGal's reaction (or lack of one) to her wagon?

-Harvey Specter

Frozen scum. The most recent pop-in was pretty blatant.

[Miss Midnight]

you know, i was so excited to play with CSF again, too.

Is there something stopping that? You make it sound like she died, or worse: replaced out.

could you imagine? i shudder to think.
but no, nothing unironic. if CSF or i had chosen different numbers, the other would have won the draft.

Ah, gotcha. Still, look on the bright side and just think of it as bringing you two closer together instead. Isn't friendship more important than power roles?

[Miss Midnight]

@Midnight, What are your thoughts on Enchant? I have my own opinion but I want to hear yours.

He's been asking weird questions and having some weird thoughts. They're overly innocent thoughts, but not in a way which seems forced or intentional. Inclined to read as town, but his play so far seems different from the little I've seen from his other games; unsure how to interpret.

Why my thoughts? It's because together we're the most stylish in the playerlist, isn't it? It is, I knew it.

[Miss Midnight]

Vote Manatee with me.

[Miss Midnight]

VOTE: ManateeGal

Stock is rising quickly for this one. Let's all turn our headlights towards her so she knows every word she says is gonna be closely scrutinised and ripped to shreds

Good decision.

More votes.

[Miss Midnight]

Why my thoughts? It's because together we're the most stylish in the playerlist, isn't it? It is, I knew it.

Deep down, you know I'm right.

Now, the cutest in the playerlist is another story...

[Miss Midnight]

He's obviously referring to Cat Scratch Fever.

So was I, of course. I mean, have you seen that cat GIF avatar? Adorable. Easy number one cutest.

[Miss Midnight]

We've got penguins, fleas and manatees in the playerlist, I don't discriminate.

Besides, if we restricted it to just people it wouldn't even be a competition. Best to spice things up.

[Miss Midnight]

Oh, and for anyone wondering why i picked 4 (I remember someone askeda general question about picks), it's my favorite low level number and i wasn't concerned about rolling PR because i don't want my possible miselim for low content hurting town.

Feels like this is trying too hard to justify yourself.

[Miss Midnight]

Oh, and for anyone wondering why i picked 4 (I remember someone askeda general question about picks), it's my favorite low level number and i wasn't concerned about rolling PR because i don't want my possible miselim for low content hurting town.

Feels like this is trying too hard to justify yourself.

it makes sense tho

It's not about whether or not the explanation makes sense. It's about the motivation in doing so in the first place, and the way in which it's done.

[Miss Midnight]

Are you still just sheeping Penguin, Gamma? Why is your vote where it is right now?

[Miss Midnight]

is there a basis for the enchant wagon im missing?

mine seems to be based off of lack of content or interactions which is... fine considering what i've done so far.

Why is it fine? What's the problem with pushing awkward, low content slots?

Curious comment, considering your clamming-up on the circumstances of Manatee.

[Miss Midnight]

Good posting from Penguin, pretty bad posting from Gamma.

[Miss Midnight]

kewl, my vote stays where it is for now.

Why's that?

[Miss Midnight]

*blinks*

Did you blink with your third eye? Everything makes a lot more sense afterward.

My chakras are blitzed like they've never been before reading that whole interaction.

[Miss Midnight]

i probably should have said that both ways. gamma, it looks like house is taking a step back - please don't keep poking him.

i think {pp, ge, ss, titus} has 3-4 town in it. i also have shitty surface townreads on {csf, thor, ha+ha}.

Think S_S and Titus reads here are too quick. Also disagree on Thor.

[Miss Midnight]

is there a basis for the enchant wagon im missing?

mine seems to be based off of lack of content or interactions which is... fine considering what i've done so far.

Why is it fine? What's the problem with pushing awkward, low content slots?

Curious comment, considering your clamming-up on the circumstances of Manatee.

Curious comment given I FoSed you as partners with Enchant.

ManateeGal was an RVS wagon, nothing more. I was perfectly ok with it proceeding and I still am.

That doesn't preclude me from pushing the slots I think are scum.

You're equating silence on a topic to objecting to it.

Okay, this is a good response.

[Miss Midnight]

VOTE: House

1) I feel like your anger at Gamma is like.... really fast. It escalated up to "no kill one of us" in a way that doesn't feel organic to me.
2) I don't know how much you've played but you're an older user and I find it kinda unbelievable that you'd dismiss two scum wagons D1 because they happen not an uncommon amount imo.
3) I like Gamma and Manatee as town right now so woo.

I see your townreads on the other wagons of Gamma and Manatee, but thoughts on the Enchant wagon? Enchant's alignment in general?

[Miss Midnight]

Is there a more targeted purpose for this post? I reserve my right to change my reads every 30 seconds.

I often like to

pretend to

be super cool by shrouding myself in mystery and being enigmatic, but this time there isn't. Just figured I'd share my thoughts when catching up. Maybe in doing so get to hear your response.

I do regret saying that before reading the very next post where you say Thor falls out first, though. Apologies if that bothers you.

[Miss Midnight]

It’s cool. Once you’ve actually done something worth forming an opinion on you can join in the fun.

Think CSF's play so far has been alignment indicative, or at least readable. I would reason that a scum CSF would be more likely to re-enter the thread here trying to ask some kind of question or insert herself more into the discourse than just dropping some gut reads. Reads to me as genuine. I also agreed with her take earlier on in the game that despite it being around page 10, there was surprisingly little to actually go off of.

[Miss Midnight]

Have I played with you before Miss Midnight? I'm feeling buddied

Of course you feel buddied, we're best buds. Aren't we?

[Miss Midnight]

VOTE: Gamma

House, why did you move away from your main on Wake? I thought your playstyle there was quite smooth and buttery

Let's talk about this vote.

VOTE: Thor

[Miss Midnight]

VOTE: House

1) I feel like your anger at Gamma is like.... really fast. It escalated up to "no kill one of us" in a way that doesn't feel organic to me.
2) I don't know how much you've played but you're an older user and I find it kinda unbelievable that you'd dismiss two scum wagons D1 because they happen not an uncommon amount imo.
3) I like Gamma and Manatee as town right now so woo.

I see your townreads on the other wagons of Gamma and Manatee, but thoughts on the Enchant wagon? Enchant's alignment in general?

Kind of wanted to raincheck this but, Enchant is more likely to be scum than Manatee but less than House imo? I don't know what to make of Enchant not caring about the wagon on him. Like if it's because he doesn't know how to engage with the people pushing him or because he doesn't care. He's posted content but it's not engaging on stuff that matters as much. :<

Earlier I interpreted that weirdness as town. Agreed that it becomes a little harder to interpret that way as it continues with little engagemnt in the face of a wagon, and agreed that it might be better to rain check the discussion until we hear more.

[Miss Midnight]

Have I played with you before Miss Midnight? I'm feeling buddied

Of course you feel buddied, we're best buds. Aren't we?

Sure, we can be best buds.

I just feel like you've talked about me a lot compared to how little I've done this game so far.

Maybe. Hasn't been intentional. I'm not trying to poke you, only respond or refer to you when I feel it's warranted. Of course, the discussion of the cat GIFs definitely warranted it.

[Miss Midnight]

Okay, now

you're

the one buddying

me

.

[Miss Midnight]

What do you guys think about H&H?

They're a decent vote. Would like to resolve Thor and his vote on Gamma first, though.

[Miss Midnight]

Hm, nothing here.

[Miss Midnight]

Feels to me like he didn't like our interaction and has been trying to "turn it off" before suspicion sets in on him.

Yes, he doesn't like your interaction and has been trying to turn it off. I sincerely doubt this is because of his alignment.

I recommend you just drop it.

[Miss Midnight]

I think Thor might be a good wagon. Thor ignoring my reachout is bugging me. He's a big stats guy...until asked to follow up on it.

Yeah, posting the most common positions for scum and then who that would correspond to in this game in 326 felt like a really bad attempt at shade.

[Miss Midnight]

Feels to me like he didn't like our interaction and has been trying to "turn it off" before suspicion sets in on him.

Yes, he doesn't like your interaction and has been trying to turn it off. I sincerely doubt this is because of his alignment.

I recommend you just drop it.

You seem to understand his perspective better than I, can YOU tell me how I came across in bad faith?

He made a clear "I'm going to follow the crowd" post, then got evasive when i asked him about it.

How does that make ME into the bad guy, here?

This is the last thing I'll say on the subject given that I want you to drop it. Calling someone a follower, then saying they're evasive and then saying "there's totally nothing wrong with being a 'follower', nope no bad connotations here" probably has a tendency to piss someone off. It also looks like you're trying to piss said person off. There is an inherent negative connotation in calling someone a "follower", and I think it would be bad faith to not recognize that.

That's the explanation of why you come across as bad faith. Here's the explanation of why you're wrong: helping form wagons doesn't mean that you're a "follower", or that you trust other people's judgment more than your own. Helping form wagons or just voting by yourself both have the same goal in mind, to generate reactions to analyze. It's just one of many possible methods of forming reads, and one that I would say is decently effective.

[Miss Midnight]

There is an inherent negative connotation in calling someone a "follower", and I think it would be bad faith to not recognize that.

All I'll say is that i believe this is a matter of opinion.

Following is not, in and of itself, a Bad Thing. There are very few things that are inherently Bad Things.

Context matters. That's what i was looking for.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is of the meaning or connotation of the words you use, what matters is the interpretation of the people whom you're talking with. That's communication 101.

[Miss Midnight]

Just when I didn't think it was possible for my third eye to be opened any further, the last few pages goes and does it.

[Miss Midnight]

the worst also gets a fancy sign of his own since he picks 3 every game, so his high position is less relevant.

Something_Smart also picks 9 every game. It's strange to me that you know that but not this, and also that I knew this but not that; not until someone pointed it out.

[Miss Midnight]

What would be scummy about that, Miss Midnight?

I didn't say it was scummy. I just said it was strange.

[Miss Midnight]

Spicy, but not spicy enough. I need more spice from you.

[Miss Midnight]

To be clear, that analysis was done by Hoopla, not Thor.

Spoiler:

Subject: Open 794 Pick Your Power X/Y (finished)

yesterday i was skimming the run of pyp where skitt was scum, and i think someone there said it's happened once? the numbers being 2/2/6

i dunno if it's happened since, but i'm too lazy to check.

fwiw my guess weould've been something like 3 so

none.

that game you're talking about was open 630. the mod made a mistake and didn't let scum talk pregame, which resulted in two scum picking the same number. so, never willingly.

scum simply don't like sacrificing good draft position for potential WIFOM trickery. well, it isn't really WIFOM since scum never do it. we can fairly confidently declare there is only 1 (at most) scum within paired and tripled numbers.

you can even see visually that scum end up disproportionately higher in the draft compared to the bottom half. it's actually quite glaring how much of an advantage knowing two other numbers and avoiding them can be;

draft positions of 42 scum in 14 PYP games:

1st - xxx
2nd - xxxxx
3rd - xxx
4th - xxx
5th - xxxxxx
6th - xxx
7th - xxx
8th - xxx
9th - xxxxx
10th - xx
11th - x
12th -x
13th - xx
14th - xx

we execute in the top half of the playerlist today, and preferably a singleton.

Subject: Open 794 Pick Your Power X/Y (finished)

it gets worse;

draft numbers selected by 42 scum across 14 games;

1 - xxxxxxxx
2 - xxx
3 - xxx
4 - xxxx
5 - xxxx
6 - xxxx
7 - x
8 - xxx
9 - x
10 - xx
11 - x
12 - x
13 - x
15 - x
20 - x
22 - x
42 - xx
413 - x

[Miss Midnight]

Good posting from Penguin, pretty bad posting from Gamma.

VOTE: Gamma

House, why did you move away from your main on Wake? I thought your playstyle there was quite smooth and buttery

Let's talk about this vote.

VOTE: Thor

MM, what happened between these two posts that made Thor's vote for Gamma worthy of a wagon on Thor?

Just because someone makes some bad posts doesn't mean that someone else can't make a worse vote on the first person. Even if that bad posting from Gamma fully translated into a scumread on him, I could still see someone making a horrible vote on him as also being scummy.

Anyways, gonna try to do a bit of catching up.

[Miss Midnight]

You'll have to excuse me if I eschew the typical style of a full spampost catch up, I think it might double the length of the thread. And that's if I could even get through it before passing out.

[Miss Midnight]

Manatee or Enchant would be better votes

Were you scumreading Thor at any point?
Wanna talk about Thor?

-Harvey

Not really, no... I toyed with the idea briefly,

but he has zero motive as scum to actively attempt to derail my wagon in the way that he did, by posting details about me that he could have sat on as scum

.

If my wagon is derailed, it might land on him or one of his buddies if he's scum, and i don't see him risking that as scum when he's already under suspicion himself.

Think that these kinds of reads (bolded) come a lot more from town than they do scum. Townies have a tendency to townread defenses of themselves, there's a cognitive bias against seeing reasons that someone defending you would be scum. Don't think scum have that same tendency, so think that this is town indicative from House. Probably more so especially given the competing wagon positions of House and Thor, at least at the time of this post.

[Miss Midnight]

Also, yeah. That's how far behind I am, in case it wasn't clear. Back to it.

[Miss Midnight]

Don't agree with Thor's pagetop theory. At least not without any real data to back it up.

(The irony isn't lost on me.)

[Miss Midnight]

It's curious to see the things you choose to engage with, Something_Smart. It might sound this way, but I don't say "curious" in the sense of trying to make some basic insinuation of you being scum or some loose pre-flip partner connection, I truly just mean that it's curious.

Do you townread Thor? Scumread House, or Flea as of you making post 885? I don't think I disagree with anything that you're saying in any of your posts around pages 35-36, it's just strange to me that for a seeming man of few words, these are the things you're choosing to engage with. I just want to understand the motivation.

[Miss Midnight]

Townies have a tendency to townread defenses of themselves, there's a cognitive bias against seeing reasons that someone defending you would be scum

You missed some context, there.

It wasn't that he was defending me. I know what white knighting is.

It's HOW he was defending me.

That doesn't really make a difference to the point that I was making.

[Miss Midnight]

S_S, also curious about your declaring Flea town. Is it just about post 899? This time, I'll admit that the use of "curious" actually does carry with it a bit of a connotation of suspicion. I'm not sure I like the outright declaration from you that someone is town. It feels overconfident.

[Miss Midnight]

And you don't strike me as an overconfident person.

[Miss Midnight]

For the record, and it truly is for the record because the thread has probably moved past this discourse by now, none of my scumread on Thor was based on a "weird" playstyle or any of the random stats posts. It was primarily based off of the vote on Gamma, which I think was pretty heavily scummy. Don't think the stats posts themselves are scum indicative, but also they're not town indicative. Think the most revealing parts of Thor's ISO, as I've seen it from what I've read until, come from posts voting, discussing votes or talking about reads.

[Miss Midnight]

Townies have a tendency to townread defenses of themselves, there's a cognitive bias against seeing reasons that someone defending you would be scum

You missed some context, there.

It wasn't that he was defending me. I know what white knighting is.

It's HOW he was defending me.

That doesn't really make a difference to the point that I was making.

I operate under the assumption that players prefer clarity.

Maybe that's just a personal preference that i project onto others.

Not begrudging you for clarifying. Clarify away, it's quite helpful. Just stating that it doesn't make a difference to the point that I was making. Sometimes clarification would. This time, it didn't.

Don't take it so personally.

[Miss Midnight]

Hey, what am I, chopped liver?

Have you done that? Sorry if I forgot. What game was it?

Was this a joke? Serious question.

[Miss Midnight]

There's something intangible I find scummy about Gamma's posts on page 38. I'll hone in on one post in specific, though.

He never rushes to make these kinds of calls on me when he's town.

I mentioned what I did in response to this. For no other reason.
My vote remains on House until he acknowledges this.

This last line here. Seems to me to be mildly suggestive of someone who doesn't really believe in the read that they're voting. If I had a scumread that wasn't answering some point I made or question I asked, this isn't how I'd think. Or how I think many townies would think. Primary concern would be to demonstrate to the rest of the town at large that this person is ignoring something that I said, not to speak directly to the person I'm voting.

[Miss Midnight]

Just stating that it doesn't make a difference to the point that I was making. Sometimes clarification would. This time, it didn't.

I would have thought that it might have, if you're trying to sort Thor.

I wasn't sure about who he was until his defense of me where he leaked knowledge of my meta (though it is years old, it was accurate as of the last time we were in a game together).

As scum, he could have sat on that knowledge and left me in the dark, as i was not making any assumptions about his main (even though it's quite obvious now that I'm 99% sure who it is, now).

Defending me the way he did (instead of making some generic "townread"also defense) outed information about him, which he'd have no motive to do as scum.

I wasn't trying to use that post to sort Thor, it was just for you. Think that this read your making reflects more on you than it does Thor, as I said. This reasoning speaks to me very little, I've seen it too often apply to scum to have it be meaningful in any sense for me.

Question. Do you think that other people in the thread took what Thor said or revealed about you and incorporated it into their reads on you in a significant way? It seems to me to be no. Which means that on a theory level, a scum Thor loses very little from revealing this information to people, but gains a lot if it turns you in his favor, which it frequently does. I'm not alleging in the slightest that this is what Thor did, I'm just explaining a possible justification for it as scum. As well as part of the reason that I don't really factor it into my read on him.

[Miss Midnight]

This last line here. Seems to me to be mildly suggestive of someone who doesn't really believe in the read that they're voting.

Meh. We were in a pissing match against each other. You could have easily pulled a post about me referring to my vote on Gamma and said the same thing.

I don't think he was actually scumreading me, and i was only voting him out of spite... but that's old news.

I think that there's a difference between the obviously game-external umbrage you had with Gamma in regards to what you were complaining about earlier, and Gamma's last line there. I don't really think that it's super relevant or important to get into that, though. So I won't.

[Miss Midnight]

S_S, also curious about your declaring Flea town. Is it just about post 899? This time, I'll admit that the use of "curious" actually does carry with it a bit of a connotation of suspicion. I'm not sure I like the outright declaration from you that someone is town. It feels overconfident.

It is, yes. I expected a short answer from town-Flea and an even shorter answer from scum-Flea, and got a very long and detailed one that also offered up some pretty genuine-seeming and completely unprompted draft thoughts.

And it's... not overconfident, exactly, but oversimplified for sure. I obviously don't think Flea is 100% town, it's just a matter of, I didn't have any townreads up till that point, so I was grateful to find one and didn't really care about where exactly in the townreads I put faer.

What would you say your main motivation was for the questioning of people scumreading Thor around that time?

[Miss Midnight]

Okay. Full disclosure, I think that that makes 947 mildly scum indicative. Think Titus was joking, you didn't understand that, and scum in general tend to misunderstand, completely miss or misinterpret jokes more than town do on a non-insignificant level.

[Miss Midnight]

What would you say your main motivation was for the questioning of people scumreading Thor around that time?

I think just to understand the reads so that if I disagree with the reasoning I can voice that disagreement without jumping to conclusions.

It seems like you didn't do this for earlier wagons, such as on House or Enchant. Why?

[Miss Midnight]

Okay. Full disclosure, I think that that makes 947 mildly scum indicative. Think Titus was joking, you didn't understand that, and scum in general tend to misunderstand, completely miss or misinterpret jokes more than town do on a non-insignificant level.

What's the joke?

You say "never seen anyone draw productive information from a vote [that I placed on request]". Titus, known for VCA, takes mock offense. Yes, technically implying that you were implying that you've never seen any productive information from VCA at all when really you specifically meant from requested votes, but I think that it's still pretty decently understandable.

[Miss Midnight]

I didn't care that Thor had a wagon, I'm not sure if I was even aware of it.

I just saw that people were calling him scummy for what looked like clearly NAI-at-worst posts

.

And you didn't see this for other wagons?

[Miss Midnight]

Question. Do you think that other people in the thread took what Thor said or revealed about you and incorporated it into their reads on you in a significant way?

Though his defense of me wasn't directly referenced, that is the point where my wagon began falling apart as players started looking elsewhere, so... I'd say that it had some effect on it at the very least.

Correlation, maybe. Causation, doubt it.

Nah, that still doesn't seem like a joke to me. "What am I, chopped liver?" is a jokey way to make a serious claim ("you forgot about me"), so it makes sense to respond to that with a serious question verifying whether she had read it correctly.

I would be sincerely surprised if Titus were seriously implying the exact scenario that you described had happened and you had forgotten about it. But I suppose we can just ask.

[Miss Midnight]

VOTE: harvey and haley
Idk about Enchant but I feel this is a decent vote seeing as I’ve seen like a few people express suspicion toward this slot and I also suspect them

Think this is a really bad justification here.

[Miss Midnight]

Even if she wasn't, it's still worth clarifying, and it doesn't make it a joke. I don't think I misconstrued anything there.

I don't think that this conversation is going anywhere it hasn't already so this is probably my last post on the subject, but what do you mean "it doesn't make it a joke"? If Titus wasn't implying what you think she was, then what do you think she was doing if not joking?

[Miss Midnight]

It's not really a justification.

I mean, sort of my point exactly. I know it's not really meant to be a justification per se. It's just a really scummy thing to put next to a vote there, in that specific context. Which is what I was trying to say.

[Miss Midnight]

I mean, sort of my point exactly. I know it's not really meant to be a justification per se. It's just a really scummy thing to put next to a vote there, in that specific context. Which is what I was trying to say.

Why? I can pretty easily see town deciding between their scumleans by picking one that might get traction, and then documenting that decision

You seem to be implying or otherwise under the impression that I am of the thought process that Gamma saying that he's voting HH because other people are voting HH is scummy. That isn't what I think.

[Miss Midnight]

I mean, sort of my point exactly. I know it's not really meant to be a justification per se. It's just a really scummy thing to put next to a vote there, in that specific context. Which is what I was trying to say.

Why? I can pretty easily see town deciding between their scumleans by picking one that might get traction, and then documenting that decision

You seem to be implying or otherwise under the impression that I am of the thought process that Gamma saying that he's voting HH because other people are voting HH is scummy. That isn't what I think.

At least, not in its entirety. Primarily I think that that post is scummy for the way that it's phrased, and the lack of corresponding evidence. I still do think that the choice to put that other people also scumread a person first in your "justification" for voting someone is probably very mildly indicative that your thought process is not primarily focused on solving. Obviously townies want to vote people they scumread whom are also scumread by others, of course. But I think there's a difference between wagon building and what Gamma said there.

[Miss Midnight]

As I was saying earlier, it feels lazy and devoid of any further thought.

I mean he specifically referenced the existence of further thought... why not ask about his other reasons, instead of assuming he has none?

This isn't 20 questions, or an interview. I agree that it's good to ask people questions to actually see what they think when sorting them. But what someone doesn't post is just as much evidence for their alignment as what they do post. Sometimes, it's actually a lot more evidence.

[Miss Midnight]

Primarily I think that that post is scummy for the way that it's phrased, and the lack of corresponding evidence.

You think that townies are more likely to give explanations for their reads unprompted? That's, uh, a take I guess.

(It's not a crazy thing to think, but I would have to believe that it's mostly personality indicative.)

Let me be clear. When I say "corresponding evidence", I'm not talking about an explanation paired with the vote. I'm talking about the rest of the content in his ISO corresponding to what he's saying in that specific post.

[Miss Midnight]

As I was saying earlier, it feels lazy and devoid of any further thought.

I mean he specifically referenced the existence of further thought... why not ask about his other reasons, instead of assuming he has none?

This isn't 20 questions, or an interview. I agree that it's good to ask people questions to actually see what they think when sorting them. But what someone doesn't post is just as much evidence for their alignment as what they do post. Sometimes, it's actually a lot more evidence.

Ew.

This post gives me the icks.

The basic point is undeniable. You probably agree with me. Obviously it's a good thing to ask people to elaborate on their thoughts. If you're expecting some behavior or content from someone as town and they don't display it, that's a reason to scumread someone. Lack of content is as much evidence as some content is. I don't think any of this is controversial, or contradictory.

Let me be clear. When I say "corresponding evidence", I'm not talking about an explanation paired with the vote. I'm talking about the rest of the content in his ISO corresponding to what he's saying in that specific post.

Okay? So what, he's scummy for putting a vote down without having explained the read ahead of time? Why is he more likely to do that as scum than town? Don't scum usually go to greater lengths to appear to have a consistent progression?

You seem to be making this about "explanations" for some reason. I'm not sure why. You've brought it up twice. It's not about explanations, as I just said. It's about the content missing from his ISO that I would expect, assuming the read on HH were real. Again, that's what I mean by "corresponding evidence".

[Miss Midnight]

Pardon me if I sound offended S_S, but for the level of charitability you seem willing to display in 1197, posts like 1198 and 1204 seem to have a remarkably uncharitable tone. Do you think that I'm scum?

[Miss Midnight]

The way you put it across makes it sound like it's acceptable to just scumread someone because they're not being transparent with their thought processes, and sometimes there is a protown reason for that.

There's a difference between not being transparent and not producing content because you're scum. That's the key distinction to keep in mind.

[Miss Midnight]

What do you think of my vote on you? Or the worst's? Are those materially different from Gamma's vote?

Not much, really. Which sounds dismissive, but from what I've seen so far it seems like every vote on me is mostly just an extension of that phase from earlier where everyone was hopping on wagons mostly just to hop on them and see if it would build any sort of pressure. I'm not actually sure if anyone voting me except Thor actually scumreads me. Don't think anyone including Thor has actually given any reasons. I sort of get the motivation though. Beneath the outer layer of this mysterious, enigmatic and incredibly stylish player lies the true, sensitive heart of a poet. So it makes sense to want to try to see deeper.

Don't think the votes on me and Gamma's vote have anything to do with each other. The fact that you even ask makes me think I probably still have explained what I was trying to say there worse than I could have.

[Miss Midnight]

Don't think I ever said this, but I've come around to thinking that Manatee is town.

[Miss Midnight]

What do you think of my vote on you? Or the worst's? Are those materially different from Gamma's vote?

Not much, really. Which sounds dismissive, but from what I've seen so far it seems like every vote on me is mostly just an extension of that phase from earlier where everyone was hopping on wagons mostly just to hop on them and see if it would build any sort of pressure. I'm not actually sure if anyone voting me except Thor actually scumreads me. Don't think anyone including Thor has actually given any reasons. I sort of get the motivation though. Beneath the outer layer of this mysterious, enigmatic and incredibly stylish player lies the true, sensitive heart of a poet. So it makes sense to want to try to see deeper.

Don't think the votes on me and Gamma's vote have anything to do with each other. The fact that you even ask makes me think I probably still have explained what I was trying to say there worse than I could have.

Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention. Everyone always gets antsy when people disappear for a while. Happens every single time. Probably one of the biggest correlations with getting eliminated is just not being in-thread constantly. So the timing makes sense to me as well.

I will say I hadn't realized I was tied for first wagon, though.

[Miss Midnight]

Oh neat trick, what alignment is Miss Midnight?

left!

You saying I'm not right, mister perfect reads?

[Miss Midnight]

I'm caught up.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Miss Midnight]

Whaat? Don't be. I'm totally cuddly and nonthreatening. No need to be afraid.

[Miss Midnight]

Could someone who was scum... make this??

[Miss Midnight]

I don't really feel attached to any of my townreads this game. I'm not sure if I'm rusty or if this game is off to a significantly less telling start or what.

I do think that in general this game is a little wanting for sort of obvious townreads. Don't think it's just you.

[Miss Midnight]

My big issue with Harvey and Haley rn is WIM telling. Haley being absent is probably the biggest red flag for me here, especially if I assume it's Anya based on Auro's previous interactions with them, and having played with them being absent scum.

Haley is always low pressure D1 and I don't think he's been playing mafia lately. I'm more focused on what Harvey is doing rather than literal absence.

pedit: VOTE: gamma emerald

Why is this pedit aligned to the right? I wasn't able to spot it easily.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

-Harvey

Yeah I was literally about to say, great modding by Datisi to catch that. I saw that votecount and had to go back and check, somehow missed that vote despite seeing that page probably a double digit number of times.

[Miss Midnight]

You'll have to excuse me if I eschew the typical style of a full spampost catch up, I think it might double the length of the thread. And that's if I could even get through it before passing out.

Also, yeah. That's how far behind I am, in case it wasn't clear. Back to it.

These feel mildly performative and are a waste of space

Said the pot to the kettle.

[Miss Midnight]

For the record, and it truly is for the record because the thread has probably moved past this discourse by now, none of my scumread on Thor was based on a "weird" playstyle or any of the random stats posts. It was primarily based off of the vote on Gamma, which I think was pretty heavily scummy. Don't think the stats posts themselves are scum indicative, but also they're not town indicative. Think the most revealing parts of Thor's ISO, as I've seen it from what I've read until, come from posts voting, discussing votes or talking about reads.

Why

was the vote on me scummy, and how does it alter your read of me?

I think that it was pretty clear from the beginning of your whole interaction with House that much of it was really about external stuff and not about in-game stuff. Not that I want to retread any of this, but House's vote on you especially seemed pretty explicitly to be non-game relevant. So Thor's following House onto a vote on you without any additional comment indicating some other reason for the vote or the timing is noteworthy in itself. We can speculate on the hypothetical motivation for a scum Thor, but the basic fact doesn't change that it doesn't seem especially town motivated to me.

Thor's vote on you there has no bearing on my read on you.

[Miss Midnight]

Oh it's a picture of me and the worst in 20 years! You even drew my judge's robe! Your label is sads though.

I don't think so. (You are still looking stylish, though.)

[Miss Midnight]

She used it as an excuse to hop off me because my wagon dissipated.

Nobody really needs "excuses" to stop voting somewhere. You can just do it and probably nobody will really make a big deal about it.

[Miss Midnight]

For the record, and it truly is for the record because the thread has probably moved past this discourse by now, none of my scumread on Thor was based on a "weird" playstyle or any of the random stats posts. It was primarily based off of the vote on Gamma, which I think was pretty heavily scummy. Don't think the stats posts themselves are scum indicative, but also they're not town indicative. Think the most revealing parts of Thor's ISO, as I've seen it from what I've read until, come from posts voting, discussing votes or talking about reads.

Why

was the vote on me scummy, and how does it alter your read of me?

I think that it was pretty clear from the beginning of your whole interaction with House that much of it was really about external stuff and not about in-game stuff. Not that I want to retread any of this, but House's vote on you especially seemed pretty explicitly to be non-game relevant. So Thor's following House onto a vote on you without any additional comment indicating some other reason for the vote or the timing is noteworthy in itself. We can speculate on the hypothetical motivation for a scum Thor, but the basic fact doesn't change that it doesn't seem especially town motivated to me.

Thor's vote on you there has no bearing on my read on you.

Okay
Why do you think Thor would have wanted to hop on me like that?

I'm not sure I see the relevance. I don't think that everything scum does has to be part of some scum plot or agenda. Think that this may have just been a not really thought through vote indicative of the underlying mindset, like I said.

[Miss Midnight]

I think you're overstating or overthinking your own importance/ the importance of events surrounding you when it comes to the thread at large. I think that this is probably town indicative.

[Miss Midnight]

I'm not sure I see the relevance. I don't think that everything scum does has to be part of some scum plot or agenda. Think that this may have just been a not really thought through vote indicative of the underlying mindset, like I said.

what alignment do you think scum!Thor would be more willing to hop on for bad reasons?

Why does it matter? If you're trying to argue that me thinking this should lead to me believing that you're more likely to be town, I'm not so arrogant as to be unable to consider different worlds in which I may not be right. I can scumread Thor but consider a world in which he's town but you're scum. And vice versa. Not all of your scumreads need to be fit together as partners at all times without any flips whatsoever, that would be a wildly ineffective way to play the game.

[Miss Midnight]

I'm not sure I see the relevance. I don't think that everything scum does has to be part of some scum plot or agenda. Think that this may have just been a not really thought through vote indicative of the underlying mindset, like I said.

what alignment do you think scum!Thor would be more willing to hop on for bad reasons?

Why does it matter? If you're trying to argue that me thinking this should lead to me believing that you're more likely to be town, I'm not so arrogant as to be unable to consider different worlds in which I may not be right. I can scumread Thor but consider a world in which he's town but you're scum. And vice versa. Not all of your scumreads need to be fit together as partners at all times without any flips whatsoever, that would be a wildly ineffective way to play the game.

it feels more like you're trying to skirt around the chance I'm town because I'm the juicy miselim wagon rn

Don't really know what this means. Also, I'm the first vote on your wagon? Not really sure what you're alleging.

Responding to 1306, what am I "waffling" on? What do you even mean that I'm not "acknowledging the chance that [you] could be town"? In this very post of mine you're quoting here I acknowledge a possible world in which you're town. Genuinely just have no clue what point you're trying to make.

[Miss Midnight]

Damnit Gamma, I'm trying to entertain the notion that you might be scum. Stop making that impossible!

VOTE: Miss Midnight

What are you even agreeing with him on? Genuine question. I really don't understand what he's saying. Perhaps you can explain it.

[Miss Midnight]

okay, but it feels like she's putting more emphasis on the gamma!scum read than the thor!scum read

Yeah. I think you're scummier.

????

What does this have to do with "skirting around the chance [you're] town"?

[Miss Midnight]

I feel like MM v Gamma is SvT.

MM's interactions don't feel like good faith.

Also, low-key not a fan of stuff like this:

I think you're overstating or overthinking your own importance/ the importance of events surrounding you when it comes to the thread at large. I think that this is probably town indicative.

... Last i checked, she was already townreading me anyway. It comes across as trying to keep me leashed with a townread cookie or someshit.

Leashed how? Telling people to their faces that you think they have an overinflated sense of importance is probably not the optimal way to get people to like you or to do what you want them to do. Which should be a decent indication that I said it because I think it's true rather than for some ulterior motive. Not sure what kind of razor-filled ash and charcoal cookies you've been eating if that seems like a "townread cookie" to you.

[Miss Midnight]

Damnit Gamma, I'm trying to entertain the notion that you might be scum. Stop making that impossible!

VOTE: Miss Midnight

What are you even agreeing with him on? Genuine question. I really don't understand what he's saying. Perhaps you can explain it.

1304 & 1306.

You seemed invested in scumreading Gamma.

Okay?

[Miss Midnight]

Are we using different definitions for something here? Not trying to overstate anything or exaggerate, but I'm still missing the connection between this and any sort of point whatsoever, especially one that leads to me being scum.

[Miss Midnight]

What do you think of my vote on you? Or the worst's? Are those materially different from Gamma's vote?

Not much, really. Which sounds dismissive, but from what I've seen so far it seems like every vote on me is mostly just an extension of that phase from earlier where everyone was hopping on wagons mostly just to hop on them and see if it would build any sort of pressure. I'm not actually sure if anyone voting me except Thor actually scumreads me. Don't think anyone including Thor has actually given any reasons. I sort of get the motivation though. Beneath the outer layer of this mysterious, enigmatic and incredibly stylish player lies the true, sensitive heart of a poet. So it makes sense to want to try to see deeper.

Don't think the votes on me and Gamma's vote have anything to do with each other. The fact that you even ask makes me think I probably still have explained what I was trying to say there worse than I could have.

Yeah sorry, I might need an ELI5 on what kind of Harvey-related content you expected to see in Gamma's ISO. I feel like 1211 pointed out the trajectory that lead Gamma to a Harvey vote. Does that not fit the bill?

For one, and it's a pretty relevant one I'd say, I think that Gamma probably would have commented on the whole thing between Flea and Harvey. Don't think that two posts about RQS being scummy really constitutes a "trajectory", but "trajectory" is tangent to my point. To me, talking about a lack of "trajectory" implies that it's more about the change of a read that bothers you. I think in my case the better term would be a lack of history.

[Miss Midnight]

razor-filled ash & charcoal is my 2nd favorite flavor.

If you had given me arsenic laced & glass chunk cookies, it would have worked.

Cute, but do you actually have a response or no?

[Miss Midnight]

A few questions:

1) What do you mean by "leashed"? And how does telling someone directly that I think they have an overinflated sense of importance constitute it?
2) What do you mean by me being "invested" in scumreading Gamma?
3) How does that then translate to me being scum, or make it impossible for you to see Gamma as scum, as you say in 1307?

[Miss Midnight]

For one, and it's a pretty relevant one I'd say, I think that Gamma probably would have commented on the whole thing between Flea and Harvey. Don't think that two posts about RQS being scummy really constitutes a "trajectory", but "trajectory" is tangent to my point. To me, talking about a lack of "trajectory" implies that it's more about the change of a read that bothers you. I think in my case the better term would be a lack of history.

I want to elaborate on this "history" point to maybe explain myself better. If you were investigating whether some famous battle took place somewhere, or some famous person lived somewhere, you should expect to be able to find evidence supporting that. Some kind of record should exist: bullets from a battle, old records with signatures, whatever. If you can't find much of that or what is there is weak, it undermines the credibility of the original claim. This is sort of one of the points that I'm trying to make about the Harvey vote; in addition to the phrasing itself, I feel as though this "historical record" for the read is lacking, especially in situations where I imagine it really shouldn't be.

[Miss Midnight]

1) What do you mean by "leashed"? And how does telling someone directly that I think they have an overinflated sense of importance constitute it?

This is a bad faith question, and supports what i said about your interactions.

My leash comment had nothing to do with your derogatory remarks. It was about the "town indicative" bit. I don't see how you would even think about around the question you did, here. Who the fuck considers being insulted a tool to control that player?

I have no idea, that's exactly why I was asking you. So maybe let me ask a different question. Do you really think that telling someone that I think something they said was town indicative

after

directly telling them that I think they have an overinflated sense of importance constitutes an attempt at "leashing"? I just want to hear you clarify exactly what you're saying about what I said there. My judgment of what someone would say to someone when attempting to "leash" or pocket them seems to be quite different than yours.

And, for the record, as bad as it sounds it wasn't meant to be derogatory when I said that. It was purely a statement of my personal judgement that you were misperceiving an interaction related to yourself and seemed to consistently perceive interactions that involved yourself as being more important to other people than I perceived them as being. Obviously I recognize that connotatively what I said is still probably a negative thing to say, just clarifying my intentions.

[Miss Midnight]

okay, but it feels like she's putting more emphasis on the gamma!scum read than the thor!scum read

Yeah. I think you're scummier.

????

What does this have to do with "skirting around the chance [you're] town"?

Well just think about what it took to get that out of you

???

[Miss Midnight]

2) What do you mean by me being "invested" in scumreading Gamma?

Unwilling to consider a world where he's town. If you have stated such a possibility, I've missed it.

I'm not so arrogant as to be unable to consider different worlds in which I may not be right. I can scumread Thor but consider a world in which he's town but you're scum.

And vice versa

.

[Miss Midnight]

1) What do you mean by "leashed"? And how does telling someone directly that I think they have an overinflated sense of importance constitute it?

This is a bad faith question, and supports what i said about your interactions.

My leash comment had nothing to do with your derogatory remarks. It was about the "town indicative" bit. I don't see how you would even think about around the question you did, here. Who the fuck considers being insulted a tool to control that player?

I have no idea, that's exactly why I was asking you. So maybe let me ask a different question. Do you really think that telling someone that I think something they said was town indicative

after

directly telling them that I think they have an overinflated sense of importance constitutes an attempt at "leashing"? I just want to hear you clarify exactly what you're saying about what I said there. My judgment of what someone would say to someone when attempting to "leash" or pocket them seems to be quite different than yours.

And, for the record, as bad as it sounds it wasn't meant to be derogatory when I said that. It was purely a statement of my personal judgement that you were misperceiving an interaction related to yourself and seemed to consistently perceive interactions that involved yourself as being more important to other people than I perceived them as being. Obviously I recognize that connotatively what I said is still probably a negative thing to say, just clarifying my intentions.

By the way, just to skip ahead a step in this conversation, if what this is about is primarily related to me stating that something you did was town indicative despite already seeming to townread you and you thinking

that

is the attempt at "leashing", I would say that I still think it's worth pointing out particularly alignment indicative things when you see them, even if they happen to already align with a read that you have. For one, it's useful for other people who may see it and come to agree with you. For two, it can help make it clearer to other people where your read is coming from and how the strength of it changes as the game progresses.

[Miss Midnight]

Do you really think that telling someone that I think something they said was town indicative after directly telling them that I think they have an overinflated sense of importance constitutes an attempt at "leashing"?

Continued bad faith. I've already stated the derogatory "observation" had nothing to do with my remark.

I just want to hear you clarify exactly what you're saying about what I said there.

[Miss Midnight]

That isn't something that I haven't elaborated on. Actually not trying to sound snarky here, but you can just read my ISO.

To bring up something new: self-serving though it may sound, I do think that his recent posts about me are genuinely just sort of bizarre in a way that resembles flailing. Again, someone correct me if there really is something I'm missing, but I think that Bee pretty much read the situation exactly in 1309 and most of the stuff Gamma has been saying has just been non-sequiturs.

[Miss Midnight]

I feel like the fact it took so long to get you to take a clear stance on me vs. Thor is indicative that you are scum trying to keep options open

Saying that I think you're scummier was never a secret, and it doesn't suddenly mean that my options are suddenly closed. There's just no motivation for me as scum to do anything you're talking about.

[Miss Midnight]

House's vote on you especially seemed pretty explicitly to be non-game relevant. So Thor's following House onto a vote on you without any additional comment indicating some other reason for the vote or the timing is noteworthy in itself.

That kinda raised my eyebrow as well, but it didn't particularly strike me as a maneuver one buddy would use towards another.

I could see logicking them to be SvT or TvT,

but i don't see why you'd humor the theory of SvS

.

I'm not. Never said I was. Pretty explicitly said I wasn't.

Why does it matter? If you're trying to argue that me thinking this should lead to me believing that you're more likely to be town, I'm not so arrogant as to be unable to consider different worlds in which I may not be right. I can scumread Thor but consider a world in which he's town but you're scum. And vice versa.

Not all of your scumreads need to be fit together as partners at all times without any flips whatsoever, that would be a wildly ineffective way to play the game

.

To be clear, this isn't me declaring them TvS, just stating that I don't need to pre-flip fit together every scumread into one world.

[Miss Midnight]

Yeah but, of your scumread associatives don't make sense, that's a red flag that you're on the wrong track.

Sure, it's a sign that you might not be right about all of your scumreads, at least.

[Miss Midnight]

[Miss Midnight]

36 hour prods? Hadn't realized.

[Miss Midnight]

To be honest, I'm kind of getting cold feet on the Gamma wagon too. His lack of confidence in his reads feels genuine.

Mm, still not really feeling it. His basically dropping of his read on me seems to me like wanting to get away from a subject that he looked bad on and have it be forgotten as soon as possible. From his perspective as theoretical town, I was the scum basically spearheading his miselimination. With a read like that, you either keep calling for that person's death up until your own, or if you change your mind on them you'd certainly make some point of explaining it. The the nonexplained dropping of the read into just move onto another vote, and then another shift of course onto the only viable counterwagon doesn't seem genuine to me. It reads more like he thought that he could win when it came to the competing wagon with me, that didn't pan out and then he moved onto the only other one that could work, while trying to drop everything he said about me because it didn't look good.

[Miss Midnight]

i leave y'all alone for one night and THIS happens

VOTE: enchant

wanna start off a shock 11th hour counterwagon?
want to get a claim out of enchant?
you are a furball full of potential rn.

Think that unless you genuinely and strongly want Enchant over Gamma today this is pretty strongly anti-town, even disregarding my reads on either player. Especially the getting a claim out of Enchant part, don't see a reason to push for more claims unless like I said you strongly want an elim there.

[Miss Midnight]

I never really dropped the read on you lol

I'm not talking about your internal state of mind which I can't possibly know, I'm talking about what you've demonstrated to the thread via your posting. And what I've seen I believe supports what I just said.

[Miss Midnight]

Lowkey also not a fan of Miss Midnight disappearing again after the wagon shifted off of her : (

Missing one single day is "disappearing"? Christ. This just... makes me sad. I am sorry that I can't be here all the time. I'm trying to make the most of the time when I am here, and I think I do so decently. Is it still not enough?

[Miss Midnight]

Eh - gut says that gamma’s town. Who’s next in your line?

Well, awkwardly you would be pretty close up next.

[Miss Midnight]

i totally made a tier list of last minute flashwagon prospects. omitted myself for obvious reasons, but i think i'd flatter myself to say that i rank in around b.

{thor}
{flea, manatee}
{miss midnight}
{ss}
{bee, pp}
{csf, titus, auro, house}

Is... is top a better or worse prospect? Bottom is worse, right?

[Miss Midnight]

Oof - you aren’t doing so well this game.

Maybe. We'll see, I suppose. But I'm having a fun time with my best buddies, so in the end, aren't I the real winner here no matter what?

[Miss Midnight]

I mean - I hope we’re all having fun so we’re all winners by that metric.

Being correct is also fun and you don’t seem to be doing so well by that one.

Ok. Without trying to come across as snarky, let me know when you want to tell me something more interesting or nuanced than "you're wrong".

[Miss Midnight]

When she's here, she seems very interested in the game and energetic. So it doesn't correlate that she's had very long stretches of inactivity and had to be prodded twice. It means that interest and engagement when she is here may be fake, since she seems disinterested to post actively outside of it.

Fuck off.

[Miss Midnight]

Feel free to be snarky because I am saying that.

Without trying to come across as snarky, let me know when you want to tell me why I’m next in line.

Sure. I think you've done basically no scumhunting while pretending at various points like you have. It seems to me like you have almost no conviction in any reads. Exactly like you say, I think you've been snarky a lot, but to my recollection almost none of it has been in the service of or during the discussion of some strongly held read you have, it's mostly just been random conversations that aren't really alignment relevant. I think that none of these things would be true if you were town. You clearly have this attitude (not to imply it's a bad thing) when someone calls you a "follower", or when someone says they didn't realize prods were 36 hours, or various other things. It seems to me like some kind of interaction of this sort would have happened regarding some read you had, were you town. And again, those other things I mentioned first, like a seeming lack of scumhunting.

[Miss Midnight]

To be honest, I'm kind of getting cold feet on the Gamma wagon too. His lack of confidence in his reads feels genuine.

Mm, still not really feeling it. His basically dropping of his read on me seems to me like wanting to get away from a subject that he looked bad on and have it be forgotten as soon as possible. From his perspective as theoretical town, I was the scum basically spearheading his miselimination. With a read like that, you either keep calling for that person's death up until your own, or if you change your mind on them you'd certainly make some point of explaining it. The the nonexplained dropping of the read into just move onto another vote, and then another shift of course onto the only viable counterwagon doesn't seem genuine to me. It reads more like he thought that he could win when it came to the competing wagon with me, that didn't pan out and then he moved onto the only other one that could work, while trying to drop everything he said about me because it didn't look good.

I think this would depend on how confident he was in his scumread. It looked like he was resigned to his own elim since he didn't really have any good scumreads.

Although I'm not sure how to interpret his 1758

Elaborate on the confidence point as well as the point about being resigned? Even if I knew the bell already tolled for me, I'd be screaming at people to get whoever I thought was scum if they were the one who had gotten me killed, or drove my wagon.

[Miss Midnight]

Feel free to be snarky because I am saying that.

Without trying to come across as snarky, let me know when you want to tell me why I’m next in line.

Sure. I think you've done basically no scumhunting while pretending at various points like you have. It seems to me like you have almost no conviction in any reads. Exactly like you say, I think you've been snarky a lot, but to my recollection almost none of it has been in the service of or during the discussion of some strongly held read you have, it's mostly just been random conversations that aren't really alignment relevant. I think that none of these things would be true if you were town. You clearly have this attitude (not to imply it's a bad thing) when someone calls you a "follower", or when someone says they didn't realize prods were 36 hours, or various other things. It seems to me like

some kind of interaction of this sort

would have happened regarding some read you had, were you town. And again, those other things I mentioned first, like a seeming lack of scumhunting.

Let me clarify the bolded here. Not "some kind of interaction", I think that a

consistent pattern of interactions

like this would be visible.

[Miss Midnight]

Also comparing reading players to reading rules is not a good look.

Two totally different things. One is veeeeerrrry objective.

?

I'm not comparing those two things. It was one example of the way that you respond to various things to demonstrate that despite those being your responses to topics which aren't super game relevant or alignment indicative, you don't seem to have a consistent pattern of those same types of responses in the service of actual reads.

[Miss Midnight]

I'm not sure I'm "comparing them", or would ever disagree that they're two different things. I think that they're both decent examples of you responding to things which aren't actually super game relevant though, which as I just said ties into my broader point.

[Miss Midnight]

If Gamma were strongly scumreading you (just as an example), I would fully expect him to do everything to avert his own elim and scream for your elim instead. But if he's not that confident in his scumread or any read, then I don't really expect him to kick and yell going down.

Do you think that his posts trying to convince people that I'm scum demonstrate a lack of confidence? This is a serious question. I've re-looked at them myself and I don't see it, but if you do I'd like to hear why.

[Miss Midnight]

When she's here, she seems very interested in the game and energetic. So it doesn't correlate that she's had very long stretches of inactivity and had to be prodded twice. It means that interest and engagement when she is here may be fake, since she seems disinterested to post actively outside of it.

Fuck off.

Why this reaction?

Stupid logic, completely ignoring alternative hypotheses and saying that missing one day is "very long stretches of inactivity". Bothers me. So fuck off and come up with something more substantiative.

[Miss Midnight]

I think there are some players that would never go down without a fight as town, but Gamma doesn't strike me as one of those players.

I'm not so sure I'd describe it as "going down without a fight". Carries some connotations I think would be misleading. I would describe it more as a lack of a demonstrated thought process that I think is very likely to be there should someone be town.

[Miss Midnight]

That's one way to read his hop onto ManateeGal -- when other people pointed out how much they disliked his push on you, he dropped it.

In this case that would be starting from the conclusion and working backwards, or even circularly. I'd be saying we know he lacks confidence because he hopped on Manatee, and he wouldn't have hopped on Manatee without confidence. Where's the

prior evidence

of it, in this case?

[Miss Midnight]

I often like to pretend to be super cool by shrouding myself in mystery and being enigmatic

So much for this huh

I guess? I'm sorry if I insulted or offended you. But like I said, it hurts me as well when people try to use me missing one day against me when I put in a ton in the time that I have here.

[Miss Midnight]

That's one way to read his hop onto ManateeGal -- when other people pointed out how much they disliked his push on you, he dropped it.

In this case that would be starting from the conclusion and working backwards, or even circularly. I'd be saying we know he lacks confidence because he hopped on Manatee, and he wouldn't have hopped on Manatee without confidence. Where's the

prior evidence

of it, in this case?

It'd*, not "I'd".

[Miss Midnight]

You seem to approach this game as if everyone plays (or should play) like you.

I like to think that I'm pretty decent at putting myself in other people's shoes. If what you said were true, certainly I would be scumreading Manatee, no? But obviously she's a different player than me with a different playstyle, and I recognize that.

When I make comments about what I expect which isn't there from people, I think that I do so with a good faith effort to analyze people, their personalities and their playstyles and only then to draw conclusions. For instance, certainly if what you said were true then I would be saying the similar things to Something_Smart that I said to you, no? But I think that you're both quite different players, and I make reads as such.

[Miss Midnight]

That's one way to read his hop onto ManateeGal -- when other people pointed out how much they disliked his push on you, he dropped it.

In this case that would be starting from the conclusion and working backwards, or even circularly. I'd be saying we know he lacks confidence because he hopped on Manatee, and he wouldn't have hopped on Manatee without confidence. Where's the

prior evidence

of it, in this case?

Does there need to be prior evidence? Maybe he just lost confidence in the scumread on you, further supported by 1635 and 1648.

I'm not sure how much I want to be arguing this point with you lol, since evidently he didn't drop the scumread on you.

If you don't have evidence, why believe it? Let me go back to square one here. I said that some things about Gamma's posting were scummy to me. You said that you didn't think so, because if he lacked confidence then it made sense. I said that the evidence I saw pointed against that being the case, and asked you where you saw evidence of it.

Then you seemed to say the original scummy thing itself was evidence

. Does that make sense? That's my interpretation of this conversation. Like, I agree with you that my point is less of a point if he lacked confidence, but I don't

see a reason

to believe that that's the case. No reason to believe it over the infinite number of other possible reasons that any individual behavior that seems scummy could actually not be.

I don't think we're arguing. I'm just trying to see your perspective, and explain mine.

[Miss Midnight]

Two names to note though!

Note for what? Miss Midnight's birthday bash (NO SCUMZ ALLOWED)?

[Miss Midnight]

jfc….there is no evidence on day 1

We have 73 pages worth of people's behavior. Do you think that one or two measly flips and a few PRs is really the only thing to go off of?

[Miss Midnight]

Two names to note though!

Note for what? Miss Midnight's birthday bash (NO SCUMZ ALLOWED)?

A note to look back because it may or may not be important later. Idk.

If it’s your birthday let’s throw a bash though. We can have sushi.

Okay. So, again, without trying to be snarky, two names to note for absolutely nothing, for no reason whatsoever except maybe to pretend to be "noting things" and analyzing.

It's not my birthday, thanks. Sushi sounds good anyways, though.

[Miss Midnight]

Behavior is not evidence until there is a flip. It’s why I like wagons!

And yes. Behavior alone is blah and can be explained or unexplained by anything and everything.

You clearly have some preferences today for some people over others. So clearly behavior is evidence to you. No?

[Miss Midnight]

I mean - you realize that you are being wagoned right?

To be honest, I didn't realize. And I'm still not sure that I am? I noticed like two votes earlier, and I think that Thor has already changed elsewhere.

[Miss Midnight]

No. It’s guide a gut feeling. It’s not evidence of anything

If you don't like the word evidence, how about this; behavior is clearly enough to influence you to prefer one wagon over another, no?

[Miss Midnight]

Meh, this conversation is actually going somewhere less salient than I had hoped. So I'll drop it for now.

[Miss Midnight]

And @CSF, sure, we can come back to it later.

No. It’s guide a gut feeling. It’s not evidence of anything

If you don't like the word evidence, how about this; behavior is clearly enough to influence you to prefer one wagon over another, no?

Sure. Behavior can influence my feelings and actions but it is by definition not evidence.

It seems to me we have two different definitions of the word "evidence". Again, this isn't a snarky way to say "your definition is wrong", just actually saying that we seem to use it in different ways.

Sorry - we can’t all play the way you want us to.

This has basically no bearing on what we've been talking about I think.

[Miss Midnight]

Who's still on the Flea wagon? I don't even stongly townread Flea but I'm not a super fan of that wagon. Would like to hear the reasons why they're there from the people there.

[Miss Midnight]

It seems to me like Flea scum only makes sense if Enchant is also scum, I can't really see Flea scum Enchant town. So again, even without any real townread there I guess I just don't really get the wagon.

[Miss Midnight]

*Waves hand.* Me.

I'm not the biggest fan of it either because I don't think it'll /do/ much from what I know of Flea but I feel wishy-washy about the main two wagons ATM and I want to see what happens.

I think wagoning Manatee would bear more fruit right now even if I don't especially think she's scum because she's more reactive and won't dig in her heels which is what I think Flea would do: self-vote or say "kill me go ahead" as fae has done before, especially since fae isn't around ATM. Manatee also promised some isos today which I don't really want so much as in the moment talking to us. It feels like a bit of a cop out and maybe the pressure would help her get more into the game and over the freezing.

(This is me asking if anyone will move to Manatee with me.)

p-edit: That world feels more possible than some tbh.

Mm, I feel like we should be beyond pressure wagons at this point.

[Miss Midnight]

It seems to me like Flea scum only makes sense if Enchant is also scum, I can't really see Flea scum Enchant town.

Why? Because Flea hasn't voted for Enchant?

Basically? Yeah.

[Miss Midnight]

That feels kinda flimsy
Why do you think Flea wouldn’t bus? How does your read on me factor into that?

Doesn't really make sense. A random last minute vote on Enchant there would give basically no town credit and would probably actually be more suspicious than it would give town credit. There's especially no reason to do it when we literally had tied competing wagons.

It has basically nothing to do with my read on you?

[Miss Midnight]

It seems to me like Flea scum only makes sense if Enchant is also scum, I can't really see Flea scum Enchant town.

Why? Because Flea hasn't voted for Enchant?

Basically? Yeah.

It wouldn't matter if both Enchant and Gamma were town, would it?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

[Miss Midnight]

I disagree in the case of Manatee. Having a way to get her back into the game and being reminded of why I TR her potentially is useful for me at least. Worst case Manatee's frozen still and I return to one of the big two and see if people are willing to let them build up again.

I think that we've already seen a demonstration early on in this game that a wagon on Manatee doesn't seem to serve to get her more invested in the game. Especially one that people explicitly basically say is a pressure wagon.

I agree that you can always just switch your vote again later. But there's still an opportunity cost, I'd say.

[Miss Midnight]

That feels kinda flimsy
Why do you think Flea wouldn’t bus? How does your read on me factor into that?

Doesn't really make sense. A random last minute vote on Enchant there would give basically no town credit and would probably actually be more suspicious than it would give town credit. There's especially no reason to do it when we literally had tied competing wagons.

It has basically nothing to do with my read on you?

I’m not asking how it affects your read on me, rather I’m asking the reverse, how your read on me informs your view of the Flea/Enchant relationship

Yeah, again I think I want to say it changes nothing? Doesn't really have all that much to do with you I don't think.

[Miss Midnight]

Suppose Enchant & Gamma were TvT wagons, both at 6 votes

Scum Flea can just vote whichever miselim wagon fae wants to go through

A hypothetical scenario in which scum flea and enchant town can coexist

But I guess you'd have to think Gamma could be town in this scenario

I do think that Gamma could be town? Or rather, as I think I said verbatim and had a whole argument about earlier, I'm not so arrogant as to be incapable of considering worlds in which I'm wrong. Interesting that people seem to have that perception of me, though.

In that scenario, why does scum Flea refuse to vote the Enchant wagon? As you say, fae can just vote whichever one to go through and switch between them.

[Miss Midnight]

I do think that Gamma could be town? Or rather, as I think I said verbatim and had a whole argument about earlier, I'm not so arrogant as to be incapable of considering worlds in which I'm wrong. Interesting that people seem to have that perception of me, though.

In that scenario, why does scum Flea refuse to vote the Enchant wagon?

As you say, fae can just vote whichever one to go through and switch between them.

Nah, not arrogant. I just wasn't sure if you were working from the assumption that Gamma is scum.

One reason would be optics - one can't be seen as willing to go with any miselim.

I agree that that's a valid concern for scum. Think my impression is just that the utility for scum is a lot greater in being more flexible on which of the two goes through; even just pushing for claims gets you a lot. So, not impossible, just perhaps unlikely. I would be surprised, let's say.

[Miss Midnight]

Is there a reason you're buying into my theories more now?

He was joking. And, in case you're joking with this post, I'm also joking with mine, right here pointing this out.

[Miss Midnight]

I think Thor's post is pretty "scandalous", as it were, but I think it's just probably not from scum, or rather I think the mistake is genuine. Don't think scum tends to deliberately do things like that in the first place, much less plan it a day in advance and make it known that it's coming. Would require some creativity to even think of that mistake to pretend to make.

Think that focusing on scandalous things over scummy things is how a lot of games are lost. There are other things to push Thor on if you think he's scum than this.

[Miss Midnight]

To be clear, I actually do think it could be possible that Thor is scum and also made that mistake. I just disagree that it's not a mistake, or was made intentionally to townslip.

[Miss Midnight]

Any thoughts on that?

I think that that seems like such a backwards way of looking at my play that I'm equally as convinced that you're just looking for some kind of reaction here as I am that you actually think it. Maybe more convinced of the former.

[Miss Midnight]

Would you classify my interaction with Penguin yesterday as defensive or neutral?

Also, you don't need to engage people to get reads. I engage people to

talk

about reads, and read the thread to

get

reads.

[Miss Midnight]

Also, literally on the page that you link to of my "only" engagement with Gamma, directly above the post you linked is an entire series of interactions between me and Gamma...?

[Miss Midnight]

Sorry, that wasn't a "would you say it's X or would you say it's Y?", it was a "would you say it's any one of (X or Y)?"

Uh, I obtain hopefully convincing people. I obtain other people's perspective on my thoughts, which help inform my own. It demonstrates to the thread at large that I'm playing the game instead of just thinking things but never making them known.

Again, really not sure what the point of this is and I still kind of doubt that you're really convinced of what you're saying.

[Miss Midnight]

While you're here: do you still townread Manatee?
If so, are you okay with her wagon right now? Why not push elsewhere?

Lightly, sure. I've already talked about my thoughts on her wagon and have indicated that I think that it's a pretty bad one.

[Miss Midnight]

Sorry, that wasn't a "would you say it's X or would you say it's Y?", it was a "would you say it's any one of (X or Y)?"

Uh, I obtain hopefully convincing people. I obtain other people's perspective on my thoughts, which help inform my own. It demonstrates to the thread at large that I'm playing the game instead of just thinking things but never making them known. .

Yes, it did seem (defensive or neutral), did it lead to a read on Penguin? I'd love to hear.
Sure, can you offer me more reads that were affected by your engagements? I know the theory reasons for engagement, my complaint is that the aggression seems lacking - that you're demonstrating that you're around, but playing it safe.

Yeah, I don't really care to go through my own ISO to pick out examples. If you'd like to pick out some specifics then you can and we can talk about them, but so far the only one you've brought up you immediately retracted.

[Miss Midnight]

Both town. What does this have to do with anything about my being "defensive"?

[Miss Midnight]

Scum. Unsure. Yes.

Question for you to ponder. Is the important part to you "deriving utility" from engagements, or the attempt to do so in the first place?

[Miss Midnight]

If this whole interaction has been your roundabout way of asking me my reads, there are more straightforward ways to go about that.

[Miss Midnight]

Also, you don't need to engage people to get reads.

To be clear, my problem with you isn't that you don't seem to be

engaging

people to get reads, my problem with you is that it doesn't seem like you have any reads at all, nor are you making any effort to do so. It seems to me like you've basically said yourself that this is the case? What with the whole "day ones are useless" and such.

[Miss Midnight]

Last interactions: Penguin says there's no such thing as "evidence" on D1. You argue that there's a lot more readable content providing far more value than a flip. Penguin argues that behaviour can influence feelings and actions, but only revealed truth is evidence. You mention you just seem to use it in different ways and end the conversation.

Is your scumread on Penguin largely based off this interaction?

No. My scumread on Penguin came before that interaction. I do think that he is using that mostly as an excuse though, and so take it as mildly scum indicative, but it's not largely based off that interaction.

[Miss Midnight]

Like I said. I think that 1 day 22 hours on the clock is really not the best time to be pressure wagoning someone. Also, this is another "level zero" thought similar to what I said about Flea and Enchant, but I think that the lack of any real counterwagon movement to Manatee is weak evidence that scum don't have any problem with the current state of affairs. It's possible Manatee is being bussed, but I think that's like the third possible world I would be considering here. (That's not just an expression, it really is the third.)

[Miss Midnight]

Another random note for the record, I also think that Titus has a decent shot at being scum. I am simply not going to elaborate any more on this read right now other than "I disvibe her posting votes and scumreads."

[Miss Midnight]

I think there's more utility in doing in on a later day. But like I said, it's possible. At the moment think it's more likely not the case though.

[Miss Midnight]

So, your problem with me is admittedly a playstyle issue which goes back to my comment about you wanting people to fit into your mold.

To be clear - which if you were reading with actual intent to understand you would have understood - I have reads, but I have no strong reads. It's day 1 and there's nothing to form a strong opinion off. There are people I wouldn't wagon or vote out today! There are also lots of people that I would!

You keep saying that I try to "fit people in my mold". I'm not sure if you think that it works to discredit what I'm saying or what. Maybe it does. But I think it's pretty clear that that isn't the case, like I talked about earlier when it comes to my reads on S_S, Manatee (and also maybe Enchant) and as I recall you mostly just brushed off.

You say you have reads but no strong reads. Okay. That isn't what this is about to me. To me, this is about a lack of demonstrable evidence for that first claim, that you have reads, even if they're not strong ones. As I said earlier, with the way that you engage people on various topics I would expect some of that style of engagement to also happen on the subject of some reads you have, or even just one. But I don't see that pattern of behavior in your play so far.

[Miss Midnight]

Any other Manatee scum games people could link?

[Miss Midnight]

All your null reads have 100+ posts. Does the fact they've made plenty of content without being readable mean anything to you at all? The only correct read for Thor on d1 is "Thor is Thor".

This Thor is absolutely not that Thor.

[Miss Midnight]

Bleh. Don't really like any of these wagons. Even Titus, despite what I said earlier.

VOTE: Penguin

[Miss Midnight]

Actually, no.

VOTE: Enchant

[Miss Midnight]

Eh. I think actually I will vote either of Enchant or Titus. My cold feet on Titus have defrosted, and on Enchant I think it'll be useful to at least see the flip of one side of that 6/6 wagon.

[Miss Midnight]

If you ever wonder why you're getting scumread, this is an excellent example.

Don't care, didn't ask.

[Miss Midnight]

UNVOTE: