Open 552 - Hope Plus One (GAME OVER) Town wins

[Tr1ckster]

I sat here all weekend refreshing this page all weekend and the first time I leave the computer for more than thirty minutes the game starts? >.<

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[Tr1ckster]

Triiiiiiiiiiicks. <3

I like trains.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHkKJfcBXcw

I'm tempted to love vote back.. <3

Vote: Trickster

Oh my god you suck!

I know you love me...

PEd. well seems like im getting famous now.

It's just one game...

Wanna join your train? I think that would be fun.

[Tr1ckster]

Alright. I like RQS. It makes me happy.

So...

1. Tell me why you aren't scum.

2. Tell me why you shouldn't be lynched D1.

3. Tell me, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much your role helps you.

~ I'd love to answer these all myself, but as a wise man known by the name cue5c once said: "don't answer your own questionnaires until everyone else has answered.. otherwise you show everyone else what you're expecting" <<Not an exact quote

[Tr1ckster]

RQS is a different approach, but then what are you expecting to get from your random vote?

I don't see how they would interfere with each other, nor do I see a problem with doing both at the same time.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm reading this is subtly defensive. Anyone else see the same?

PEdit:

@Vonflare

Yep. Outting power roles is my game. Well. Power roles and scum. Don't worry. Think about the question in multiple ways and from every angle you can think of. Don't worry. It's a very towny question.

@Moonlight...

Really think about that question. I think you've answered it yourself. Why would I ask that question if I was scum? So now think about why I would post that question if I wasn't scum.

[Tr1ckster]

Don't worry. It's a very towny question.

Yes, we are definitely going to take your word for it.

Again. Think about it from as many angles as possible. If I'm not scum, why would I ask that question?

Now I think I've just gotten you to answer every question on my questionnaire for me. Man, I'm good.

[Tr1ckster]

Do you really not see my dilemma here? You know that I know that it fits your Town meta. D:

... That said, the others don't. It would cause reactions. And you know me well enough to assume I'd go into "paranoid mode" because of what I said above, so you probably wouldn't really count on me defending you... or would you?

I'm going to watch.

Closely

.

I would expect nothing less of you. <3

I have my eye on a certain person atm. I'm certain you can guess who it is, (it's not hard.) But can you think why?

And can you tell me if my very light suspicion is off?

Oh. And this should help you with your paranoia ~
Answer this question and you will answer the other two questions in my questionnaire.

Why, if I'm not scum, would I ask the third question?

PEdit:
@vonflare

*sigh*

If you cannot answer that question for yourself, and unless Moonlight wants to answer it for you, you'll have to wait until more people have posted for an explanation.

[Tr1ckster]

Why, if I'm not scum, would I ask the third question?

To prevent fakeclaims later?

This is one relatively good reason.

There's another. You can find it, I know you can. But when you do, don't post the answer in the thread. Just let me know you figured it out. I'd like other people to be able to figure it out for themselves as well.

I have my eye on a certain person atm. I'm certain you can guess who it is, (it's not hard.) But can you think why?

And can you tell me if my very light suspicion is off?

Out of the 3 other people that have posted, I think I can guess, but I'm not confident we're seeing the same thing. I'll comment on it, just let me know if it's the same.

Excellent. I love your comments.

Why, if I'm not scum, would I ask the third question?

No, no, no, that's not the right question at all. It doesn't reduce the paranoia, because I cannot answer the question "Why, if he WAS scum, would he NOT ask that question?".

Hm. You answering my question wrong. If you answered it correctly you would not be very paranoid at all.

However, I believe that you can, in fact, answer that second question there. I'm almost certain of it. You just have to try a different angle.

What makes me lean towards a townread for now is that you could have probably gone with something less outrageous and get reactions as well.

I could, but they would merely suspect it was just for reactions. With something like what I just said I can yell right now that it was just for reactions and people would ignore me. No, I like this way much better.

Well, if someone posts a high score, he knows who the powerroles are, and is free to NK them.

That is incredibly scummy.

Can you explain why a high score implies a power role?

Hm. This is a good point, Moonlight. Please explain, vonflare?

Not exactly. Question 3 is designed to get people to answer with random numbers, which there is no reason to do beyond metagaming. I don't like people who do that on Day 1, so I'm going with VOTE: Tr1ckster for the time being.

Hm. I would argue differently. I think if that's how you interpret Question 3 we will be having some very interesting conversations later in the game.

PEdit:

Ah, vonflare, I see you answered my question. I did expect quite a few random numbers, but I planned to look at the reasoning behind the random numbers. No, I was hoping people would not, in fact, post random numbers, and I find it interesting that that is the first thing that jumped into BwBurke's head.

@Dr Pants and @Shadi

Interesting, is it not, that you completely ignore what I just posted? Perhaps you have answered the question already? Or perhaps you fear the answer?

[Tr1ckster]

Ah, vonflare, I see you answered my question. I did expect quite a few random numbers, but I planned to look at the reasoning behind the random numbers. No, I was hoping people would not, in fact, post random numbers, and I find it interesting that that is the first thing that jumped into BwBurke's head.

Answered you here, vonflare.

Because of the question he asked. High score = useful role = power role.

Of course, if we were supposed to answer with random numbers, my inference was irrelevant.

My answer would be 10 for a VT role, less for anything else. Not everyone thinks the same way. =P

Exactly.

PEdit: *thinks and re-tries* Okay. Doing this brings tons -and I mean TONS- of attention on you. You'd have to be confident it would not lead to your eventual lynch. And that if it somehow did, it would make a buddy of yours look much better without that being the main goal, more of a "plan B if A fails".

You did not show that kind of confidence as scum in the one game I've seen, but I have to consider that you replaced pretty late into that one.

All things considered, my paranoia has reduced a bit.

I like you're reasoning, but...

I'm still really sad... no one has gotten to the ultimate reasoning behind the third question.

Oh well, I guess I shall have to explain later in the day...

[Tr1ckster]

Interesting, is it not, that you completely ignore what I just posted? Perhaps you have answered the question already? Or perhaps you fear the answer?

Sigh I never get to be a part of the RVS do I... # of the post with the question pls? and yes I am shaking my scum pants off.

Post #10: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5787758

[Tr1ckster]

Is that the answer? 6?

SHADI SOLVES IT!

Hm. He did pick a very interesting number.

Very safe. It's scaring me.

[Tr1ckster]

I love the number 7 more, but it's pretty high isn't it.

As do I!

Oh hey. I got an idea. What do you think of Sakura Hana? Did you notice anything interesting about her posts?

[Tr1ckster]

Hm. @Moonlight, it is perfectly fine if you cannot answer the question. I might be being too subtle. No matter.

Thank you for your comment on Sakura. I do tend to over-analyze at times.

I cannot wait until more people have posted. I have already noticed several very interesting things that I would like to point out, but I would definitely like to see everyone else has posted first.

I'm quite glad I posted that question. The reactions have been quite satisfying.

[Tr1ckster]

I hate you so much.

*sighs*

This makes me sad...

Why do you hate me? Because I won't explain?

I really, truly need to answer this one after everyone else has already posted.

[Tr1ckster]

So what indeed did you want to get out of question #3? What if i said that I'm scum? What if I said that I'm town? What if i didn't want to answer the question? What kind of reactions where you looking for?

These will be explained when I answer my Questionnaire... which will be immediately after everyone else has answered or refused to answer it in some way.

Also ftr i'd answer #3 with 42 but that's way off the scale.

What do you mean by the way off the scale part?

Also, I'm glad you posted. I found it interesting, however, that you did not post after I called you a light scum-read and then posted again after I retracted that read. Coincidence? Maybe.

[Tr1ckster]

> Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:47 am
> Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:53 pm

You're reaching...

Eh. Just pointing things out.

[Tr1ckster]

So what does me not posting for a couple of hours tell you about my alignment?

Interesting. I already answered this question. Gah. I need to stop talking to you, I read you as scummier with every post you make.

[Tr1ckster]

That's

interesting

I also ready you scummier with every post you're making.

It would be more fun, this back and forth, if you could come up with something original instead of just OMGUS-ing everywhere...

And better grammar wouldn't be a bad change to make either.

PEdit:

@Moonlight

Alright, I'm going back to reread.

Yes, I probably would get more telling reactions... And hindsight is going to kill you later. The answer to my question is so blatantly obvious (to me, at least) you will question your entire mafia career when I tell you.

[Tr1ckster]

You're quite wrong if you think my scumread on you is based off OMGUS, it's more your "HOLY SHIT SHE HASN'T POSTED IN 2 WHOOPING HOURS BECAUSE SHE OBVIOUSLY HAS TO BE IN FRONT OF HER PC 24/7 AND REPLY EXACTLY WHEN I WANT HER TO OR SHE'S SCUM" kind of reaching.

@Moonlight

I reread. And I guess I can see it as her trying to understand me, but she responds too much like Hanzo to my reaching claims. You know that I read people based not off of what I accuse them of but how they respond to my accusations. And if you look at her responses and then you look at Hanzo's play, you must see why she's still a light scum read. She overreacts to small reaching accusations that will never get me anywhere if I attempt to get her lynched.

[Tr1ckster]

... I just had another thought. It's probably wrong too, but if it's right I shouldn't really reveal it now.

It may, in fact, be right then.

Time for me to crash, but not before I say that I like what I see from Sakura so far, despite disagreeing with her read.

Interesting. Well, it's definitely too early in the game to have a decent read on anyone yet, IMO.

[Tr1ckster]

So here's the part where scum knows he messed up and just goes "lol i was reaction testing", Care to tell me in what way am i overreacting and what did you expect from a town reaction from your PoV mr reaction tester?

Hold up. Aren't reactions, or responses, the point of a questionnaire? How is reaction testing bad? Also, where did I mess up? O_o

Also... is it not strange that I accuse you, you back off, I back off, you come back on, we go back and forth for a bit, I accuse you again, you back off... and then you come back later when I haven't backed off again yet? Your posting patterns are funny.

PEdit:

He's disagreeing with your read because he's played with me before. And maybe because he knows the answer to the third question.

[Tr1ckster]

This is the funny part i was playing some games during the time that happened, then i was eating lunch and then i came here to check on any new posts, considering your supposed time frame was 2 hours, it means nothing because I wasn't even reading anything that happened at the time, and you pushing that angle is... what's scummy of you.

You're reaching, sis. I wasn't pushing anything. Merely pointing something out. Trust me. You'll know when I'm pushing for a lynch.

[Tr1ckster]

Also, I'm glad you posted. I found it interesting, however, that you did not post after I called you a light scum-read and then posted again after I retracted that read. Coincidence? Maybe.

Here's you pointing out something completely unnecessary considering it means nothing, then why point it out?

Interesting. I already answered this question. Gah. I need to stop talking to you, I read you as scummier with every post you make.

Here you clearly mention that such a thing is giving you a scumread on me.

It would be more fun, this back and forth, if you could come up with something original instead of just OMGUS-ing everywhere...

Then here you say I'm just OMGUSing everywhere, which i point out it's not the reason i'm scumreading on you on my next post.

She overreacts to small reaching accusations that will never get me anywhere if I attempt to get her lynched.

Here you're

clearly pointing out that your reaching accusations are your reaction test

So here's the part where scum knows he messed up and just goes "lol i was reaction testing", Care to tell me in what way am i overreacting and what did you expect from a town reaction from your PoV mr reaction tester?

Here i call you out on your back pedal and ask what you thought would be a townie reaction from your PoV

Also... is it not strange that I accuse you, you back off, I back off, you come back on, we go back and forth for a bit, I accuse you again, you back off... and then you come back later when I haven't backed off again yet? Your posting patterns are funny.

Here you point out again the discrepancy of 2 hours between my posts, which is already explained in my next post, YOU ARE TOTES NOT PUSHING THAT ANGLE, NOPE.

All your trajectory points towards you trying to back pedal your argument, then going back to it, then back pedal again, it's like you've run out of ammo already Mr. Scum.

Nothing means nothing in Mafia.

I'm not backpedaling at all. I'm trying to stay off you're back, because I want to begin to push for you for more information, but I would really like to wait until everyone else has posted first.

Nor am I pushing your lynch, nor am I pushing my point. I'm simply responding to your counter points you're making against mine. Which is one reason I think you're reaching a bit.

Anyways. Maybe I shouldn't scum-read you. I simply find it very interesting that you react the same way to me that scum did last game I played town in. Just sayin'.

[Tr1ckster]

Well at least the fact that you're scumreading me based on reacting the same way as another person who was scum in another game adds to my scumread of you. Town wouldn't be willing to do something like that, true town looks for motives.

Have you read my posts? I'm scumreading you on more than that.

And I also said it's a very light scumread. Always has been. You seem to be trying to make it out to be more than that and I find that.. interesting.

[Tr1ckster]

Cool. So we're waiting on Breshke and Zephyrus before I explain Q3.

I would like as many people to answer the questionnaire as possible, however.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5787758

Also Krystal has a relatively good point. What exactly would the numbers mean? How would you all interpret them?

[Tr1ckster]

Gotta say the volume of posts is insane, although I kinda like it that way.

As do I.

@Moonlight

I've been thinking about what you said... and I think you're probably right about the answer. Also, I'm rather scared that the answer should not actually be revealed this early, though I may have given out too much information already.

What do you think?

[Tr1ckster]

One more answer. One more response.

Waiting on Breshke

[Tr1ckster]

Every game is different and every player is different. You are being biased here, because her reaction is quite different to what you're comparing it to. There is frustration, but I can also see some hesitance. It's what I'd expect from a Townie that hasn't played with you before.

Explained above. The fact that you're asking me about it while you could just let it slide and see what it leads to is another plus.

These are good points.

UNVOTE: Sakura Hana

"Too much info" doesn't really matter if I have guessed correctly this time. If anything, it actually

helps

.

Alright then. I'll reveal my answer as soon as Breshke posts.

I can't see any reason Town would avoid asking questions about this yet still vote.

See what I did there?

VOTE: BwBurke

Zephyrus does this, too.

VOTE: BwBurke

[Tr1ckster]

Alright.

I'm going to sleep.

I hope to be able to reveal the answer when I awaken.

[Tr1ckster]

Oh I forgot to throw Zephyrus into the "too soon" pile.

Really? Hm. I thought Zephyr pulled something similar to Burke.

Truth about what you said about my facade. I'm having trouble keeping from telling y'all the answer. Where's Breshke? I want to keep this game mooooving... and that will happen best after I reveal the answer.

[Tr1ckster]

I seem to have fallen into the trap of metagaming too early. That is what I always do - it's just that none of you are familiar with me and you automatically assume I am scum.

I did what I always do. I have more votes on me than anyone else, atm.

Don't make excuses. Defend yourself. Answer the questions. They'll help. Why shouldn't you be lynched D1? How much does your role help you?

[Tr1ckster]

Hm.

Alright, here's what I'm thinking.

I'm going to reveal my answer to question three.

I was hoping to wait until everyone has posted, but I think this is for the best, as the thread seems rather stuck on that question rather than moving on.

Why would a town player fish for interesting answers to number three?

Because they're the cop and they're trying to figure out who they're going to investigate.

Also, starting the game like I did and looking to see who is explaining their answers, who is thinking through their actions, and who is refusing to lynch me because they already know I'm town and who is trying to lynch me because I'm an easy lynch, this is a good way for me to find a good player for me to investigate tonight.

So yes. I'm cop.

This answers my first two questions as well.

Why shouldn't I be lynched D1? Because I will be far more helpful in the long run.

[Tr1ckster]

Oh. And the answer to number two, Why am I not scum, comes when I am uncc'd. Unless someone wishes to cc?

[Tr1ckster]

Why would a town player fish for interesting answers to number three?

Because they're the cop and they're trying to figure out who they're going to investigate.

So who are you investigating? Who is your top scumread?

My vote is on my #1 scumread atm.

My current plan is to investigate one of the quieter players, but I might end up doing something where I just ask everyone to submit their top two scummiest players and investigate one of the most common scum reads.

[Tr1ckster]

Oh my god. Tricks, what have you done...

Did you not read the setup? Follow the cop will not work here. D:

I did read the setup. I also did a good bit of thinking...

And I think I figured out a way for it to work. Which is why I revealed.

[Tr1ckster]

That was not what I had in mind, by the way. I thought the question and the significance you said it had was all a trick to see how everyone would react to how significant it is while it served no real purpose.

How are you going to make this work? I can't think of a way.

Ah. Yes, that would be the purpose of it if I was merely town.

(I did have this in mind before I received my role. )

I think maybe the WIFOM may be enough to scare the scum off.

Because there is a 1/2 chance each doctor will do either action, the numbers look like this before you put them together:

1/2 chance Doc1 will protect me.

1/2 chance Doc1 will not protect me.

1/2 chance Doc1 will protect me.

1/2 chance Doc1 will not protect me.

This means there is a 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/4 chance both Docs will protect me

and a 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/4 chance both Docs will choose not to protect me.

This is a 1/4 + 1/4 = 1/2 chance that I will fail to be protected.

And a 1 - 1/2 = 1/2 chance that I will be protected.

Do scum want to risk the waste of an NK on me?

What happens on D2 when there was no town player NK'd and there's a confirmed town/scum? All of a sudden, they have two people they have to NK, and/or they have another member of scum dead and a lot more work to do to win the game. I doubt they would be as foolish as to attempt an NK on me when they could kill another towny and perhaps kill a doctor, making me a guaranteed NK for N2? No, I don't think they would be that silly.

If worst comes to worst, I have some other (undeveloped) ideas as to increase the chance of my protection, but I really doubt scum would waste an NK like that when there are much better NKs out there.

[Tr1ckster]

That is true if both doctors flip a coin, but most PRs operate based on reads and thinking so the chances that either both will protect you or both wont protect you are greater.

That depends on whether or not the doctors think alike. If they think the same, this is true. But if they think completely differently, the chances that only one will protect me is actually greater.

[Tr1ckster]

So I have this idea, if you're a doctor you flip a coin tonight to decide whether to protect trickster or not, if he doesn't die then just swap your action the next night, if he dies then... oh well, that was his fault for outing himself this early, and just continue playing as you would a regular doctor. If you flip "don't protect" just go for whoever else you would protect. Sound good? And yes, there is a chance scum will aim elsewhere, but that just leaves trickster alive longer so yay?

That is a really tricky gamble Tr1ckster, but it could work. If a doc get's killed though you go macho, so I guess we better hope that doesn't happen.

Also, as a cop why would you need to fish for PR's? If anything, wouldn't you want the doc's to stay hidden for as long as possible?

Not PR's. Scum. Interesting answers to #3.

That is true if both doctors flip a coin, but most PRs operate based on reads and thinking so the chances that either both will protect you or both wont protect you are greater.

That depends on whether or not the doctors think alike. If they think the same, this is true. But if they think completely differently, the chances that only one will protect me is actually greater.

On another note, this doesn't work when you add WIFOM of "what the other doctor is thinking" to your action "Will they protect trickster or not?".

Then I would encourage both doctors to ignore this line of reasoning unless they feel they feel they have a good idea who the other doctor is and how they think.

That was not a good play, trick.

Pretty sure that the scum would be more inclined to NK trickster, because the 50/50 chance of killing him would be better than the chance of killing a doctor at random.

Maybe. I doubt it, however. Why waste an NK on a gamble with one PR when you could catch two?

[Tr1ckster]

So I have this idea, if you're a doctor you flip a coin tonight to decide whether to protect trickster or not, if he doesn't die then just swap your action the next night, if he dies then... oh well, that was his fault for outing himself this early, and just continue playing as you would a regular doctor. If you flip "don't protect" just go for whoever else you would protect. Sound good? And yes, there is a chance scum will aim elsewhere, but that just leaves trickster alive longer so yay?

Yeah. This is probably the best idea atm until I come up with a better one.

[Tr1ckster]

While I can appreciate Trick playing his gambit and trying something new, let's not reinvent the wheel here... there's a reason why long-timers and vets at Mafia do not play like that...

Hopefully you learned it.

UNVOTE:

Hm. There was a reason why people used to let out blood when they found out people were sick, too.

Not necessarily saying my way is right. I'm just saying there's always a better way.

[Tr1ckster]

Hm. There was a reason why people used to let out blood when they found out people were sick, too.

Not necessarily saying my way is right. I'm just saying there's always a better way.

Well.... You might be the one using leeches this time, but who knows. I bet leeches has cured someone of something at some point.

xD Well, leeches was an improvement from the medical practices before it, so..

[Tr1ckster]

Moonlight's play has been... interesting.. this game.

That said.. I think he's still a good town read for me. I think maybe I'll investigate him tonight.

[Tr1ckster]

Trickster, you should have used "Interesting" as an username you seem to like that word a lot

xD Maybe I should have. xD (But I also like to pull tricks and gambits a lot...)

[Tr1ckster]

Just wondering, why would you investigate a town read as opposed to a scum read?

I would investigate Moonlight because he's a fluid read. And I don't really have much of a scum read on anyone past BwB atm. Although if Moonlight comes up scum, you're next in line.

[Tr1ckster]

Guys. Sakura is conftown. I investigated her last night.

Sorry it took so long. I was gone for a bit this weekend.

[Tr1ckster]

Moonlight is a town read.

VOTE: Vonflare

I want to hear what he ^^ has to say.

[Tr1ckster]

Vonflare...

You are the only one to jump on "follow the cop." Everyone else, (myself included) was aware of the setup and the circumstances.

Explain, please?

[Tr1ckster]

Although.. Moonlight's lack of activity since my claim of intent to investigate him is very interesting. He's posted once. And only once. Usually he posts a bit more, does he not? Explaining and defending or attacking? But no, this time he makes one point and leaves.

Is he scared of outing a scum-buddy?

Also.. pretty upset about the quicklynch yesterday. Not ready for that lynch at all. It's the reason I investigated Sakura instead of Moonlight.

Anyways.

I'd like to hear from vonflare. If I get sufficient information from him, my vote moves to Moonlight.

[Tr1ckster]

I want to know why Krystal Bald hammer on BwBurke when we had plenty of time to give BwBurke his last post to defend himself (I believe the countdown was at 6 days left when he hammered).

Yes. Both of the quick-hammers were scummy IMO.

[Tr1ckster]

But at least he asked for permission. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

Hopping? No, I'm the one starting it because I believe neil slipped there.

Your vote is basically an OMGUS. I genuinely thought Burke was scum on D1 because of his attack on Tricks. Do you believe I could predict he'd get quickhammered?

Exactly. My vote was on Burke as well.

Fine by me. You posted your intent minutes after I signed off and when I came back online the thread was locked already. I am being quiet because I thought you'd be clearing me today. What do you think of neil's slip?

Hm. You're being quiet today because you thought you'd be clear?

So... in other words... you're only posting and helping town because it gets you a town read?

(and I don't like neil's slip at all. I also don't like that you found it. But that may just be me overanalyzing.)

[Tr1ckster]

No, I'm barely posting because I do not want to influence people's reactions to Neil. I also can't do much until he posts and defends himself.

At least I like that you're calling vonflare out, I had forgotten about him. He's still a null-read to me and I want to sort him out before D2 ends.

Hm.

But aren't you the one who's always trying to influence everyone? The lack of attempt to influence is.. scaring me.

But yes.. I wanted to sort a lot more people out before D1 ends. Very not happy about that quicklynch. I would have much preferred to have confirmed your role rather than Sakura's. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

I also don't like that you found it.

Considering I also saw what he said at the momment he posted it and the thread was locked, this doesn't mean much.

Also fwiw is of my opinion that cleared townies should if anything try to help out more because town know that all their actions come from town intent.

Exactly. I agree.

Then why the fuck didn't you?

I was hoping to hear from Burke before he was hammered. >.<

Why would I be pushing others after finding that slip and taking for granted that you'll be confirming me? Think about it.

You pointed out a slip. I haven't seen a push from you since. Or before, even.

And you didn't mention taking for granted that you'd be confirmed at all until after I'd pushed you.

Sorry, man. Not seeing it.

For what it's worth, I doubt Borophil and neil are scum together. The way the former is sticking his neck out for the latter would look horrible after a scum flip.

See?

Why didn't you point this out earlier? This just seems like you're trying to protect yourself..

[Tr1ckster]

You expected me to push for Burke's lynch before he got a proper chance to respond to getting wagoned like that? Seriously?

No. I expected more of a push, more of a search, more comments like the one you just made after I started pushing you... after D2 started. Instead of one point made.

Why is me not pointing it out a scumtell all of a sudden? Are you scum for not pointing it out yourself? Nope.

You also need to consider that I can afford to be laid back here.

It's not a scumtell. Don't put words in my mouth.

You know exactly what I'm saying. And the fact that you're twisting my words is scaring me, too. </3

[Tr1ckster]

You believe that in this setup I would be pushing after a lack of a NK, especially with a clear on me pending? Why? I'm more concerned about the ones who are pushing in different directions, not those who are not.

Think about what I'm saying.

Will do.

[Tr1ckster]

(and I don't like neil's slip at all. I also don't like that you found it. But that may just be me overanalyzing.)

I'll explain later.
There were at least three of us that found it. Why is Moonlight finding it a problem for you?

I'd like to hear from vonflare.

What would you like to hear? At least ask me a question. You know I'm V/LA on wekends (it says so in my sig), so you can understand why I havn't been active lately. I will answer any questions directed at me on monday.

But I did ask you a question. Oh well.

Also, why didn't you investigate who you said you were going to?

I investigated Sakura because she quickhammered when we still had plenty of time in the day. Unfortunately, I missed Neil's "slip" (though it might not be that.. :/) or I would have investigated him.

[Tr1ckster]

Stop.

Scatter the votes.

Here's the player list atm (excluding Sakura and myself, as we are conftown):

Uctriton00
Dr Pants
Shadi1337
vonflare
Zephyrus
Krystal Bald (Mantisdreamz and Nikanor)
Lia Breshke
BoroPhil
Moonlight
neil1113

Everyone unvote.

UNVOTE:

ISO the player below you and pick out absolutely everything scummy about them. And everything towny about them. For the next 96 hours, (four days) you're going to tunnel them. As hard as you can.
I don't want a single player to go unchallenged on D2.

This way we guarantee that scum is challenged. Sakura and I will both reread the entire thread and post what we think of it from an eagle's eye perspective.

At the end of the 96 hours, we will have relatively good collective reads on all the players.

We will then base our reads off of the result. Weak or no tunneling will result in a scum read. A good analysis gives towncred to a player. A bad one gives scumcred.

I think, for the purposes of this mission, it is best if everyone only responds to Sakura, myself, and the player directly below and the player directly above them on the list.

Any questions can be addressed to me.

Go.

[Tr1ckster]

Ah. And you are allowed to vote for the player you are in charge of tunneling, if you so desire.

[Tr1ckster]

@Tricks: It's kinda hard for me to do that now. =/

I understand.

Do your best.

[Tr1ckster]

@vonflare feel free to post your thoughts on zephyr's ISO of Krystal. What do you think of it? Is he intentionally setting him up? Is he being as helpful as possible? Analyze zephyr's analyzation.

[Tr1ckster]

Zypherus' analysis looks completely legit, with no reaching or wild accusations. Thoughts?

I would agree. Would you say you believe he should remain low on the radar?

What do you think of his relatively low post count?

[Tr1ckster]

I don't want to jump on this idea for ignoring everything around you and focusing on one for nearly an entire round is counter-productive to me. I don't see neil as super bad btw. Also does the guy at the bottom focus on the one at the top? I assume that's how it was supposed to work? If you think I'm anti-town for working against the cop's request/demand then so be it, I don't see it helping town much.

I didn't say the entire round. If you read the whole post, you'll find I only asked that you do it for a couple of days. We will still have 8 days at the end of this to come back and look at what was said. So, please tunnel the player below you on the list.

[Tr1ckster]

Players:

Feel free to respond to the players tunneling you.

[Tr1ckster]

I know what your post said Trick but it takes up a lot of the day it was just me over-exaggerating but my opinion about it doesn't change.

There's very good reasoning behind doing it.

Also, seeing as I'm guaranteed to live through tonight, being my top scum read is not a good idea as either town or scum.

If you're town you waste an investigation.

If you're scum you guarantee your lynch.

Do you really want to choose not to do it?

[Tr1ckster]

I know what your post said Trick but it takes up a lot of the day it was just me over-exaggerating but my opinion about it doesn't change.

Also:

As your reason for not doing it was that it was a waste of a game day, and I've already told you we're not even using half of the day to do it, your opinion is just that. An opinion. Until you give more reasoning to it, it's only an opinion.

[Tr1ckster]

Because I believe being able to discuss several people at once when you might have way more thoughts to share is way better than hard focusing one person. Allowing scum to safely interact with someone without looking too weird regardless if they are interacting with town or teammates.

Allowing scum?

What this does is it makes sure no one goes unquestioned.

After this is done there will be so much more exposed, so much more to question, so much more information for town to use to hunt down scum. The way town is going about it now is tunneling only a few people, this way everyone is tunneled, everyone is questioned, and only the truly scummiest players end up getting questionned hard at the end. This is so much better than what we were doing before where everyone was looking at neil and Moonlight and ignoring most of the other players and their scumminess. This way everyone is questionned.. and after a little re-evaluation, we can pick the scummiest players from the masses instead of having to base our reads off of who jumped on and off the neil and Moonlight wagons.

Make a pros and cons list for what I just suggested. You'll only need one column. There are no cons.

and yeah I don't mind dying, coz I'm going to stick to what I think is town. If you want to lynch me for that, be my guest.

This is not what I would lynch you for. I'm conftown, so trying to paint me as scum for voting for you is a bad idea. Once I vote for you (if you are, in fact, not scum) scum are free to jump on easily without being scum-read. No, indirect OMGUS-ing and framing will not work here.

[Tr1ckster]

Here's the only think about your plan that's problematic Trickster: it lets scum paint a picture of whoever you have them investigating under the guise of being a legit, factual read. A possible solution to this though might be to have each person read through 2 peoples ISO's (say the person above and below them) that way we can cross check the information that comes out of this.

Yes. We might actually do this.

The plan was, actually, after everyone had posted their analysis, was for everyone to read through everyone else's analysis and look for to things:

People who look like they're painting someone as scum and who looks like they're legitimately trying to read people.

And

The people who are being analyzed. This part's rather self-explanatory, IMO

@Krystal Bald.. You have like.. the least work of everyone. XD The person below your name never really posted much

PEdit: Yes, I'd like to talk about that stuff.. as soon as everyone has posted. This way we'll have loads of information to draw from and comment on.

[Tr1ckster]

'k. I disagree. I think my idea was an excellent one, and I believe your reason is... bad. Very bad, in fact. But it might simply be a difference in play style.

[Tr1ckster]

Hydra dissonance in thread? me no like.

I agree. This is rather weird.

[Tr1ckster]

'k. I disagree. I think my idea was an excellent one, and I believe your reason is... bad. Very bad, in fact. But it might simply be a difference in play style.

i didn't think it was too bad initially. but nik was saying that it gives ppl a reason to make a case out of nowhere... or something like that. ehh.
i dunno. i was saying that it was pro active on your part.
as far as searching for scummy things, in our case, with lia. i can't do it. cause i don't see scumminess from her.

-mant

I would say I'm pretty good at figuring out who's pulling cases out of their butts and who's being honest. Honest people are most likely town, BS-ers probably scum.

Also.. I"m pretty sure I'm not the only one. Which is why I think nik's reason for this being a bad idea is a bad one. People who are pulling cases out of their butts are probs scum.

[Tr1ckster]

I'm pretty sure experienced scum are able to pull genuine cases to be able to mislynch people on their bad plays, i mean look at BwBurke!

And if scum are that good at making cases that they can make a genuine case for anyone, why would my idea result in scum making a case for someone that they wouldn't have made a case for before? Au contraire, it would make them seem more towny to "discover" a scumminess without any prodding from myself.

[Tr1ckster]

@Krystal

Of course you make cases. You just made a case for vonflare.

[Tr1ckster]

@Dr Pants

Wrong. I'm not looking for good cases. I'm looking for genuine cases.

And who knows? We might notice something interesting in the play of the people we're looking at. Some insight that got overlooked by the tunneling of Burke, Neil, and Moonlight.

There are a lot of things we can look for in these cases. And I haven't said I'm lynching anyone on their case alone.

Right now, I believe I would like to lynch Shadi for his lack of case. It is incredibly scummy to me.

Anyways.. I think people need to think about what I've proposed. What will come of it. And then what can you analyze about the cases that will help your reads on people? Because I believe these cases will significantly help our reads on people. And I don't see why they wouldn't.

PEdit:

Sakura.. How does it help hide them more?

Krystal.. Not necessarily. It was your insights. And they appeared genuine. Very genuine. I'm pretty sure the definition of a "bad case" is quite subjective.

[Tr1ckster]

Sakura.. How does it help hide them more?

Becuase they dont really need to put much effort because you're forcing them to target a specific person, so everyone will be expecting them to pull anything they can out for them, town or scum, doesn't matter forcing a player to target a specific player with tunneling won't give insight on either alignment because 1) they'll be expecting the case 2) All they need to do is find all the scummy things they've done.

You agreed that scum can make genuine and good cases, hence your plan wont help you find the scum.
We've acknowledged that town can also make terrible cases, hence if anything your plan will misdirect.

If anything scum has more incentive on making a case on someone to earn towncred, and town has no incentive to make a case on someone they may be townreading.

K. Your logic fails in several points.

1. I didn't agree scum can make genuine cases. If I did it was due to a leading question and unintentional. I disagree with this.

2. Even if there were scum that could make genuine and good case doesn't mean that the scum in this game can or will. Your first point is invalid.

3. I've said time and time again, we're not looking for terrible cases.

4. How do you reach the conclusion my plan will misdirect? You're making massive jumps in logic with no backing. "Hence" is not the word you should have used there. Those were two statements with no connection to each other.

5. Town has large incentive to make a town case on someone they may be town reading. Why wouldn't they? Again, a statement without any evidence to support it.

There's less material than there is hole in the case you just presented.

[Tr1ckster]

Something I think everyone has failed to realize is that there are several aspects of each case that we can analyze.

And any way that town might screw up when making a case on people, they are more than likely to do without making a case as well.

Any way that scum might be very good at seeming town when making a case on people, they are more than likely to do that without making a case as well.

So any arguments about these things are completely invalid. Please keep them to yourselves.

PEdit: @Sakura

I could have. But there's a lot more to analyze here and I refuse to get bogged down in tunneling at the moment. Your distractions is anti-town. Your play has been anti-town. It is distracting and making it easy for scum to slip under the radar. Please stop.

[Tr1ckster]

And any way that town might screw up when making a case on people,

they are more than likely to do without making a case as well.

Any way that scum might be very good at seeming town when making a case on people,

they are more than likely to do that without making a case as well.

Then why are we making cases instead of just analysing play, these 2 points right here completely void your reasoning on forcing ppl to make cases.

Wrong. Those two points do not void my reasoning at all. Only yours. Making cases makes people talk. And gives people more to talk about. Having more to talk about and having to analyze a case makes lurkers play. It also means more information.. which is almost always better for town.

[Tr1ckster]

I don't disagree with your idea as a whole, I'm just letting you know that there are some things you'll need to watch for.

Noted. Thank you.

And lets be honest, this rambling about whether the plan is useful is MUCH less useful then just doing the plan anyways.

Agreed. Which is why Sakura's play is anti-town.

[Tr1ckster]

Krystal.. Not necessarily. It was your insights. And they appeared genuine. Very genuine. I'm pretty sure the definition of a "bad case" is quite subjective.

i actually meant that von's post was bad.. and was seeing if you agreed.

Figured. This is the reason I haven't been responding to analyses yet. I also figured it didn't hurt to let you have that one point.

p-edit. well, she's conf town.. so i wouldn't get too bent up about the debating on her part.

-mantis

Yes. I would completely ignore her if it weren't for the fact that she makes it easier for true scum to simply slip by without actually doing anything.. which is the purpose of this assignment anyways.

[Tr1ckster]

I never tried to paint you as scum, as a matter of fact I've been doing the exact opposite the entire game. I just don't like this idea and I've stated why. The only pro is that everyone gets to be interacted with, but it's so easy to fake and point the focus exactly where scum would want it, on everyone instead of themselves in case they are caught out and more people would tunnel the player. A con in that perspective is also, it could happen that a town player is more tunneled but that's easily countered by hopefully well-thought out reads.

I've already countered everything said here.

I've also told you why continuing to debate the idea is anti-town.

VOTE: Shadi

[Tr1ckster]

I think I can see a Moon Neil Vonflare scum team.

Or even a Moon Neil Krystal scum team.

Maybe even a Shadi Neil Krystal scum team?

I don't know.

[/unvote]

[Tr1ckster]

@Shadi did you not read my post at all? >.<

[Tr1ckster]

and yeah I don't mind dying, coz I'm going to stick to what I think is town. If you want to lynch me for that, be my guest.

Can you talk about this, Shadi?

You don't mind dying, because you are going to stick to what you think is town? What does that even mean

This is a very good point.

Shadi, do you have a slip to explain?

[Tr1ckster]

@Moon

I'm scared to clear you for two reasons.

1. You might be doc.
2. If I clear you, you will be the first to die. Guaranteed. Whereas I'm pretty sure you can handle not getting lynched as town.

The only real reason I want to confirm you is because I think you're scum. But I don't know.

Right now I'm good with a Shadi, vonflare, or neil lynch. No, some of my bigger scum reads are not on this list... and that's because I need more interaction from them with other players. I have a town read on at least one of these players.

[Tr1ckster]

Also trickster, that's something you'll have to deal with, for starters you dont know if im VT or doc, yet you still scanned me.

I know that. Explanations will come post-game.

[Tr1ckster]

To be fair, I'd rather you investigated someone else and got a guilty, but that's not something you can plan for. >_>

Yes. As would I. I also think you can handle yourself if you're town. So.. I don't know. I think what I'm going to do is let you live as long as you can. If you're town, you'll live to the end of the game. If you're not, then we will lynch you pretty quickly

[Tr1ckster]

Neil is still my strongest scumread. I'm thinking that if Moonlight is scum then Neil must be too but the reverse is not necessarily true, which is why I'd like to lynch Neil first. I'm less sure now that Krystal is scum. Probably not with Neil anyway. If they were scum I think they would have taken a bit more care over the hammer.

There's some stuff I need to address in more detail but I'll do that in a separate post.

I'm thinking that Moonlight Neil Krystal team definitely wouldn't surprise me. I'm actually relatively sure that Neil and Moonlight are scum together. Only relatively, though

[Tr1ckster]

Interesting. Thanks for the post, Neil. I'm afraid you don't understand what I'm saying. Or maybe you do. You're scum either way.

VOTE: neil1113

[Tr1ckster]

Neil, please explain why I should investigate a player who posts a good bit and is sure to be a relatively easy lynch if he's scum when I can investigate a lurker and make them talk by conf-towning them or get 'em lynched by conf-scumming them.

[Tr1ckster]

I'm... So...

>.<

Neil I don't know whether I want to kill you or hug you right now.

I guess I'll find out post game.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shadi

[Tr1ckster]

I don't like how little you've contributed to the actual game, Shadi. Seems scummy to me.

[Tr1ckster]

trickster i wont tolerate you scanning anyone outside of that wagon tonight.

'k. I really don't care what you will and will not tolerate. You are not the cop, you do not get to make decisions as to what the cop does. I'll investigate whoever I see fit.

[Tr1ckster]

Also.

Neil is not a doctor.

No true town aligned player would claim doctor in the way he did. Because guess what? He just added a whole bunch of WIFOM to both doctor roles tonight. Who do they protect? Is Neil really doctor? We practically had a guarantee that I would not be NK'd tonight, and now there's a whole lot of WIFOM over whether or not I will be protected, possibly resulting in me not being protected tonight

That was incredibly scummy.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Neil

[Tr1ckster]

Neil was not at L-1, and instead of merely claiming Doc, he said he would not be protecting me tonight.. which throws the doctors into major WIFOM.

All he had to do was just claim doc. And he didn't even have to do that.

Yeah. He and Moon are both scum.

[Tr1ckster]

@Mod I'll be V/LA until Sunday.

[Tr1ckster]

@Trickster,

While I agree with you that Neil is possibly fake claiming, I'm not willing to lynch someone who claimed yet based on principle. The real PR should continue doing their thing unabated. Eventually scum are going to try to hunt them down, and after that flip, you're free to kill off the fake claim.

We need to lynch Neil today because we're no completely screwed by his fake claim until he's lynched. If he is not lynched today and he answers Sakura's question by saying he protected me last night or he doesn't answer Sakura's question at all, then there is added a load of WIFOM to the doctor's roles tonight. SO much so it could result in my being unprotected

[Tr1ckster]

I have a very specific reason for asking neil that question, so please try not to comment on it.

I'm sorry. I saw your reasoning and I would not have commented, but I will be leaving soon and I wanted to make sure that he's lynched today if he answers wrong.

[Tr1ckster]

WE ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT LYNCH HIM TODAY. If he isn't fake claiming then you go macho and die at night, and were down 4 town with no cop and one doc missing. That is without a doubt the worst case scenario.

He isn't fake claiming. I'm willing to bet my life on it.

Think about it, Pants...

Under what scenario is Neil's claim pro-town? He wasn't even at L-1

[Tr1ckster]

Basically I don't want to risk the game based upon what could be an idiotic action from the guy who thought that Nobody Special was in this game

Also it's coming from the guy who fake claimed Vig as VT from the game I modded.

The way he claimed though.

Fine. I'll laugh post-game then.

UNVOTE: neil
VOTE: Shadi

[Tr1ckster]

I have seen tons of claims on this site and mafia in general where people are under limited pressure and claim. So while Neil's claim was hasty I'm prepared to believe at it this stage - but, it is different when we have two docs so a counter claim isn't easy.

but - why rush into lynching him? if he is a doc, the docs can keep doing what they are doing. if he isn't, then the docs can keep doing what they are doing.

neil will either be confirmed town by the end, dead, or when one of the docs die if he is lying then the other one can confirm it.

for that reason, I think it's unlikely he is lying. but we certainly don't need to lynch him today.

The way he claimed though.

I need to take a walk.

If he's town, I will not be happy at all.


I will say no more on this matter until I've had some time to cool down at the thought that any towny would post that.

[Tr1ckster]

So what we're saying is neil is an angry player, who isn't very good either, so he could either be scum or a bad town player. Good to know I can tune out "COME ON GUYS, PLAY MAFIA".

I still believe it's a fake claim (but like we said, it will show itself eventually) and Moonlight is completely scummy for all the reasons I gave.

Moonlight was vaguely scummy from D1. I'm pretty sure he's scum now. However, I have a much stronger scum read on Neil for fake-claiming.

[Tr1ckster]

the issue trickster is that you're dismissing the possibility of him true claiming and signaling the other doctor what to do, i disagree with doing that tho, as everyone has said doctors should just keep continue doing what they are doing and that's about it.

Oh I see. This makes sense.

And I agree with what Dr Pants said; this allows us to hedge that neil could be some unhelpful townie.

That leaves the vote on Moonlight, because there should be no excuse for Moonlight's unprompted posting.

Moonlight has been incredibly scummy this game. It's almost too good to be true.

[Tr1ckster]

402 coupled with what triton has been saying in these last few pages make me think that he and Zephyr are scum together.

Tricks, wake up after my flip. Seriously.

I've been awake the whole game.

Sorry for the fake pressure. The problem with knowing someone like you is I have to be careful about trusting you just because I know you.

Lol I'm dead tonight, or dead tomorrow during the day for a lynch. Damned if I do.. damned if I don't.

Why the hell would I fake claim?

Also, I made it clear I'm not protecting Trick tonight, which means counter-opposites say I

was

protecting Trick last night.

How is this a gambit to scum? I'm a free doc kill for them. It's extremely risky to keep a player that's relatively good at Mafia, in for another day, knowing he could possibly talk himself out of a lynch (especially if Cop lands scum) and continue protecting for another night possibly stopping one of their kills. It's even riskier to keep two docs alive, I don't believe scum have those type of balls in this game...

Me being alive next day phase makes absolutely no sense, because that means the ONLY doc left in the game would have to protect me, leaving the Mafia a chance to kill Trick, which again... makes no sense for smart doc play. I already said I wasn't protecting Trick. Therefore, the last doc has to. They don't have a choice. We can't afford to lose our cop, no matter how delightful and amazing it would be to have a day with Trick being dead...

You guys make no sense, and your wifom makes my head hurt.

Ok. You're scum. Because if you're doc, you are screwing town over completely right now. There is absolutely no town motivation behind this.

VOTE: neil

I'm good with your lynch.

[Tr1ckster]

You piece of shit! xD

I had it coming though. I kind of tried to fill in your shoes, since there wasn't anyone to push people and do stuff. And I failed oh so miserably. Not my style, not anymore I guess.

*smirks* You're telling me.

(I wasn't trying to be scummy per se, just... different)

LOL calm down.. no one's lynching you.

And now I'll have fun watching

you

go paranoid if I mean any of the above until you investigate me. Life is good.

Yeah... I'm not quite so sure I'm enjoying our little role-switch.

[Tr1ckster]

I guess trickster only pays attention to neil's posts and none to mine or anyone else's

That or you aren't considering all the options here.

[Tr1ckster]

@Trick how is there no town motivation with wanting to keep you alive?

He didn't want to keep me alive. Faking frustration with town and then insisting he's the doc encourages the doctors to not do what they did before.

Why is this not obvious to you? O_o

[Tr1ckster]

seeing trickster play like this just makes me not even want to do anything =/

Explain?

[Tr1ckster]

I can see the town motivation if and only if he's a doc who didn't protect you last night.

Conversely if you die tonight, I'll be happy to lynch Neil tomorrow. Not today, though, so join me on Boro and I'll sheep you in the unlikely event Boro flips town.

Yes, this is me bargaining. Scumread away!

I was rather headed his way anyways.

VOTE: BoroPhil

[Tr1ckster]

Let me make this easier for you. There are 3 scenarios here.

1) neil's claim is true.
2) neil's claim is false and he is scum.
3) neil's claim is false and he is Town.

1) is horrible play, unless he assumes that everyone will jump to the conclusion that it can't be that because it's horrible.

That leaves 2) and 3).

Ah yes.

Thanks Moonlight. >.< I do kind of have tunnel vision sometimes.

@Sakura Hana why the sudden vote change to Boro?

[Tr1ckster]

@Sakura Hana why the sudden vote change to Boro?

I'm proxying my vote to him until you stop being derp and stop lynching neil.

Derp. I thought I took my vote off him. >.<

UNVOTE: neil

I'm going back to reread.

[Tr1ckster]

I really, truly, hate this.

Doctors.

If you protected me last night, protect Sakura or whoever else you think the cop will try to kill tonight.
If you didn't protect me last night, protect me tonight.

[Tr1ckster]

No, wait, even Sakura does that... no...

I don't know what's going on anymore... this game has damaged my mind. I can't think. And I'm actually crying and I don't know why. Holy fuck.

Yes, thank you for mocking me.

I apologize for all this. Perhaps you'll understand if I tell you that I consider Tricks a rival, a friend and in general someone I respect. Seeing him treated like garbage pushed me over the edge.

Should I replace out? I'm normally against that sort of thing unless it's a real life emergency. But this game just affected my sanity. I'm not doing this for towncred, these posts are not part of the game, I'm not faking any of this.

I cannot believe this. I still can't. I'm sorry. Just lynch me and be done with it, one crazy person less to worry about.

VOTE: Moonlight

PEdit: Stop. You doubted a claim that hasn't been countered for a long, long time. Just stop.

I don't even know why I overreacted like this. I am really sorry and ashamed.

I'm not joining any other games until I am 100000000% sure this will never, ever happen again. I have ruined this game and I feel horrible.

No, Moon. </3


I...

Don't feel bad. At all. You are not the first to cry because of a mafia game.

@Moderator

I personally believe Moonlight should not be modkilled. If he is town, his scum claim could be playing to his WINCON because he is making himself scummy so that he does not get NK'd tonight.

If he is scum, his scum claim could be playing against his WINCON because he is creating WIFOM by appearing townie in that he claimed scum in order to not get NK'd tonight.

But if Moon wants to be Modkilled/replaced, let it be. I would hate to see him go, but I don't want to keep him against his will.

[Tr1ckster]

.... has anyone in fact seen Shadi these past few days participating in this ****storm of hunting we've put together?

I noticed this as well.

I'm sorry I have not spoken much. Sometimes when things go down it's best for me to get an eagle eye perspective rather than becoming emotionally involved, as that results in OMGUS-y reads most of the time for me.

Anyways. Reads list coming shortly.

[Tr1ckster]

Modkill didnt end the day, Moon was scum trick.

Have we seen his flip?

And... I would be surprised if he was town. I'm just largely saddened that it went down like this.

[Tr1ckster]

@Moderator

Vote count says three votes on Zephyr but there are only two people voting for him.

[Tr1ckster]

We can give thoughts on Moonlight in the post game, and offer our advice (I have some of my own as well). But at this point, we need to focus back on the game and we can regain the fun/competitiveness of it.

You want to avoid the situation of the two teammates saying "well **** there's no point if someone just quit on us, let's just restart!", which is a real possibility and I don't want shadi and neil doing that

You scare me.

Your posts ... You post like you don't think like I do.

But you've shared my thoughts. After I've already posted them, I believe. But I'm not sure about that.

I don't know. This is starting to sound like a "Too Townie" argument. >.<

Anyways.

I don't think Moon should have been modkilled. We'll discuss it post-game in order to keep the thread from cluttering and because I need to discuss it with the moderator, but I didn't see roleclaiming as against the rules anywhere in the rules.

And I pull gambits such as claiming scum all the time. Mod-killing people for thinking outside of the box defeats the purpose of Mafia.

Enough said. That's my two cents, and I could be completely wrong.

Let's lynch some scum.

VOTE: Shadi

[Tr1ckster]

if trickster wants to cooperate that is, but i doubt it because he's been anti town all game.

Real quick. Just letting you know. You're on my team here. Not the other way around. I conf-towned you. Why? Because I thought you were acting scummy. You are not in a place to be calling people anti-town. You're welcome to play the game, but do not attack me in the process. I have no problem with a little aggressiveness for the purpose of furthering your wincon, but your attitude towards me is not part of the game, because I have been confirmed to be on your team.

Oh. And quick little note: People tend to work with you more when you don't fight with them.

Anyways. Thank you for your opinion.

Let's return to the game, shall we?

Ok.

I think Beli might be scum for the way he followed up on Neil's post by pushing the other docs off of me. We were doing fine without him, but his post created more WIFOM for the docs to sift through, and more confusion for everyone. I've read some of Beli's past games. He's a smart player. He's very aware of what he was doing.

Also, his past posts were scummy as well. But I'll get to that in a minute.

As for whether or not Neil is scum, I truly cannot see town behaving the way he did. But it is possible that he's town and Shadi or vonflare are scum. I'm leaning more Shadi if Neil isn't scum.

But I'm pretty sure Beli's scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Beli

PEdit:

Wow. And Uct said it all for me. >.< I don't even know why I post anymore.

[Tr1ckster]

Vote: Neil

If Moonlight is scum then I'm pretty certain Neil is too. His last evasive and mocking reply to me only adds to that feeling.

That means Zephyrus is probably town unless there's been some heavy bussing going on.

Last scum is probably Shadi or vonflare. I was working on a review of vonflare but that can wait till tomorrow now.

That's all for now because I need to go over the last few pages again when I'm not so tired.

At this point though I still dont want a lynch on neil. we should agree as a town about what the docs should do, be it sakuras way or the other way it doesnt matter as long as we all agree so the docs dont get confused. If neil is scum then I agree with BluePenguin (thats your name now cause its easier to spell) that Beli looks scum, so a lynch on Beli probably isn't a bad lynch.

Agreed with Pants here.

I can investigate Neil tonight.

Docs should all do the same thing they did last night.

This way, if the docs do the same thing they did last night, and I die, it means Neil is, in fact, a doctor and should not be lynched.

[Tr1ckster]

Sakura just agree with Tricks plan for docs please, its his ass on the line and if you are insistent about following "a plan" that he doesn't endorse all it can do is confuse the docs. I'm tired of discussing this, just freaking agree ok?

Thank you.

Although, based on what you just brought up, there is a larger chance that neil is town, IMO. I would say Sakura's probably right. Docs should do the opposite of what they did yesterday.

So I'll just agree with her in this scenario.

Doctors, if you protected me last night, protect someone else tonight. If you protected someone else last night, protect me tonight.

No more discussion about what the doctors should do. It's distracting from the actual game. If I die, I die.

[Tr1ckster]

OK, I really didn't want to post this, but my game face is going to have to come off for a bit.

Docs should all do the same thing they did last night.

Doctors, if you protected me last night, protect someone else tonight. If you protected someone else last night, protect me tonight.

This shit? Needs. To. Stop.

Now.

I know leadership is a shit job for chumps, but when you claimed, you nominated yourself. You're town leader.

Act like one.

I hate to have to say this, because I see a lot of potential in you, but right now you're playing as scum MVP, and if you want to salvage this game, you've got to wake up. Right. Now.

I almost want you (plural in this case) to flip me right now so that you'll (singular) know I mean what I say.

We'll talk more in the Dead QT.

Agreed.

Apologies for the confusion. I should have put my foot down and closed this discussion a good while ago. I have a feeling scum got a little too much distraction in there because of this.

I hate to make excuses, but:
The reason I changed was because everyone else offered some good input, and, in the case that Neil is in fact, a doctor, we should have the doctors do the opposite to what they did last night instead of the same thing.

Anyways. What's done is done. I believe it's probably best to have a second post to reiterate what I'm saying now anyways.
__________________

Doctors,

I will reiterate what I said previously for the last time.

If you protected me last night, protect someone else tonight.

If you did not protect me last night, protect me tonight.

THERE WILL BE NO MORE DISCUSSION AS TO WHAT THE DOCTORS WILL DO.

Any further comments may cause confusion and chaos and distraction and will not only be ignored, but also considered

MAFIA MOTIVATED.

Thank you.

[Tr1ckster]

And trickster you are letting Beli tell you what to do, you are probably being put on tilt on purpose. You seriously bought all that rhetoric he put in you? He's talking from scum perspective probably.

Vote: Beli

Bought it all? Not a lick of it. But, like Moonlight said, we fight too much as town. I wanted to put an end to it. But no one had to really listen to me until Beli started trying to sweet-talk me out of lynching him. But as soon as he put himself out there as thinking me as town's leader... well... People follow people who have a follower. He gave me a follower. Once he said that, anything I posted after that would be read and analyzed to see if I was really what he said I was. And I gained respect from everyone else because he pretended to respect me. I didn't buy a lick of what he said. I took advantage of his attempts at AtE in order to establish myself and shut down the bickering between townies.

[Tr1ckster]

Well, scum or town, Beli, you significantly helped me by calling me town's leader. Thanks.

[Tr1ckster]

Which means we'd lynch one of the pink ones, and Trickster scans another giving us a bigger edge on PoEing. However since trickster wants to do whatever the hell he wants this is going to be harder than it looks (and yes i'm still annoyed at your comment the other time that you didn't want to cooperate)

'k. Let's get this straight.

You.Cooperate.With.Me.

Not the other way around.

That said, I don't think your idea is a bad one. I do fail to see why Shadi is not on that list.

I have vonflare town.

- He seems to think the way I do (this is almost the same way Trickster seems to be town-reading me).
- Post 869 ("Moonlight tried to deflect attention away from his hammer") is a town observation to me.
- Post 792 screams townie to me. He reacted in the "us" rhetoric, which I don't see a scum saying (especially when they might be on the verge of rage quitting and concluding this game is a farce, and would likely just be sitting there crossing their fingers hoping their teammate didn't get modkilled)

Hm. Yes. I like vonflare as well.

Anyways, my analysis is as follows.

2 scum left.

11 alive.

Either Beli or Neil is a doctor and the other one is scum. This will be sorted out by tonight's night actions.

Sakura and I are conftown.

That leaves:

1 scum.

7 candidates for the last position. Those candidates are:

uctriton00, Dr Pants, Shadi1337, vonflare, Zephyrus, Lia, and BoroPhil

Uct and VF think like me. I doubt either is scum. So they're low on the suspect list.

Dr Pants, Shadi1337, Zephyrus, Lia, and BoroPhil

Lia is smart. She's got good insights, and is either talented scum or town.

Dr Pants, Shadi1337, Zephyrus, and BoroPhil

Beli says Boro and Pants are likely scum together, but if either he or Neil is scum, that leaves only one scum slot open. Which means (for now) they're both lower priority.

Shadi1337 and Zephyrus

So that's my reverse pyramid.

I say we lynch Shadi today and I investigate Zephyr tonight.

Tomorrow we work our way up the pyramid if either of these is wrong.

Tomorrow we should know whether or not Neil or Beli are scum based on the NKs. If one of them is NK'd, I will be macho and there will be one doc left.

If that doc doesn't claim, we have to assume that the remaining of the two doc claims is truly doc.

If there is a doc and he does claim, we have confirmed scum in the other one.

So then worst case scenario we have four confirmed town and two unrevealed scum on D2, but the ratio of scum to unconfirmed town is 2 to 5. And we can use PoE among other things to nab the last two scum.

Best case scenario, we lynch scum right now and I investigate scum tonight.

Anyways.

That's my thoughts on the matter.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shadi

I'll go work on a web of flips.

[Tr1ckster]

I'll go work on a web of flips.

If by web of flips you mean who is what by what is what, be proof positive of it before posting it (I've done one before, but that's because we had the game locked with confirmed PRs and there was no way we could lose). Otherwise you don't want to tip your hand to scum of how to escape the game, if they simply follow your map.

You're right. I'll wait on that. I'm practically guaranteed to be alive tomorrow anyways.

I also like Lia now; her 2nd post was pretty damn good
I can filter out the rest too but I think Lia is town enough

Agreed.

Either Beli or Neil is a doctor and the other one is scum. This will be sorted out by tonight's night actions.

Why must only 1 of them be scum?

Hm. Only 1 of them doesn't HAVE to be scum. That's just my assumption. And I assumed one of them is scum because it's relatively likely that one of them is and it works best with my calculations that way. But we'll find out based on the NKs tonight.

[Tr1ckster]

@Sakura

They could both be town or both be scum. I averaged because it made it easier. My guess is that not both of them are town, however.

[Tr1ckster]

I was simply trying to draw the night kill tonight, so that scum would have a 0% chance of killing a doc and off-setting the town.

I considered this.

But why did you claim doc the way you did, then?

And why did you take it back just now?

These don't make sense. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

After the failed NK the scum would know that the two docs were in a good position to keep Trickster alive for some time. By claiming to have protected Trickster, Neil had a chance to out the doc who actually did protect him, who would know he was lying. Outing one of the docs would mean that Trickster only got one more investigation.

I'm guessing that the reason he withdrew the claim is because with one doc already outed he knew he was getting lynched when the second one claimed so was trying to avoid that. I'm not sure it completely makes sense though.

Shadi also tried to get people talking in a way that could out the docs and it was after that was stamped on that Neil claimed. Coincidence, or not?

Vote: Neil

I think the last two scum are among Neil, vonflare, shadi and possibly triton.

I'm inclined to agree with you.

I'm also inclined to knock VF and Triton off that list.

Another reason Neil might retract is it would explain why Beli and not himself is NK'd tonight. This way he's more in the clear tomorrow when he doesn't get NK'd.

So you think Moon detracted attention from the Hammerer (Krystal) into his scumbuddy (Neil)?

Moon's been playing mafia for a LONG time. He was a moderator on the last site he played on. He was the vet of all vets. Bussing this early sounds exactly like something I would expect from him.

So you think Moon detracted attention from the Hammerer (Krystal) into his scumbuddy (Neil)?

This is what Pants brought up and is a tough sell.

The only way to spin it is, Moonlight tried to bus. Bussing I've never been able to anticipate, I'm usually 50/50 on being right or wrong.

Yeah. I'm rather iffy on this.

Hmmmm....

Actually. You know what? Neil is a confirmed NOT-PT lynch. As in, we're guaranteed no more doctor claims, no more WIFOM, and no doc lynch if we kill him.

I like this. I'll probably investigate Shadi tonight.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Neil

[Tr1ckster]

Trickster's theory has merit, although the lynch-shadi-investigate-zeph theory has been disrupted by neil.

maybe lynch-neil-investigate-one-of-them?

VOTE: neil

Becuase the apparent lack of foresight, adding WIFOM to the doc's night choices, and then changing his claim looks really bad.

and, just noticed, shadi is being replaced. let's wait until the replacement gives his two hundred cents about the volcano that has erupted in this thread before we lynch anyone.

Agreed. Don't lynch anyone until replacement comes or we get confirmation the replacement isn't coming.

[Tr1ckster]

Pretty sure we're on a time crunch here with two days left

We get an extended deadline if Shadi is lynched.

But on the last day we lynch Neil if we are not given an extended timeline.

He's guaranteed not to be a PT lynch, and a rather scummy one at that. So.

[Tr1ckster]

Could we please NOT lynch neil?

I like a Neil lynch. It's safe and sound.

Like seriously you guys all agreed that Moon wouldn't have moved suspicion from KB to neil if they were partners,

Wrong. We agreed that Moon wouldn't have moved suspicion from KB to neil if KB, Neil, and Moon were the scum team.

[Tr1ckster]

So why does it make sense for Moon to move suspicion from someone he knows was town to someone he knows was scum?

He wanted to catch the slip first and grab town creds for it and then later follow up with a defense.

Actually, when you really think about it.. doesn't it sound a little planned?

Moonlight moves suspicion to Neil, Neil claims doc? Moonlight gets towncred for catching scum slip, neil is in no danger of getting lynched until tomorrow?

And that was probably the backup plan.

If you really think about it, Moonlight catches scumslip and then shuts up because I'm about to reveal him as confscum... which automatically gives neil towncred for getting targetted by scum.

[Tr1ckster]

hmmmmm.... ok and if neil flips town then what?

Good question.

Let me think about that. And try to run the numbers again.

[Tr1ckster]

Um.

Neil is confirmed Not-PT

He's a safe lynch.

And he's looked pretty scummy since his slip on D1.

[Tr1ckster]

As I said, I could easily be verified tonight by Trick if he chose to vote me. As scum, besides reaching, you really can't come up with a reason to out my claim. I'd rather keep my claim and out the other doc.

As town though, that's exactly why I outed my claim. Is because I did not want another doc to counter claim. I don't want both docs being outed, I didn't even want Beli to be outed. Once Beli was outed, my VERY NEXT POST was to out my claim. The purpose, again, was to make sure the other doc wasn't outed too.

Lynch me if you please, but all the evidence shows you it's a mislynch. Neil-Scum really has no motivation to out his claim at this point, and as scum, I wouldn't have.

Wifom all you want, but I've made my stand. I dug a grave at night, and since Beli was outed and I didn't want to out the other doc, I guess I'll have to bury myself with that grave during the day. But I won't be self-voting. That plays against my win condition.

I don't want to waste a verification on you. I think you're scum. There's no such thing as evidence in Mafia. Or rather, there is, but it is illegal to post it. There is scum motivation behind it, partially because there's town motivation behind it, and partially because if someone else claimed doc, you might have been lynched.

[Tr1ckster]

Might have, being the imperative word there. Again think with your Head Trick, if I was scum, and I "might have been lynched" claiming, and I "might have been lynched" by counter-claiming myself, then why the hell would I counter-claim to avoid the doc claiming, rather than letting the other doc claim, outing both docs, and yeah, maybe dying but at least my scum partners would know both of the doctors? We'd have two docs and a cop? It'd be like christmas came early this year...

Instead I outed myself, so that the other doc WOULDN'T claim. Sure, he can't counter claim me now and get me lynched, but that logic makes a lot less sense when in reality, based on games here, people have that LYNCH ALL LIARS theory. It's a gamble to be lynched either way, and instead of helping scum by letting the other doc get outed, I outed myself to stop the scum from getting ALL the information.

Who was going to claim doc?

I think the answer is no one. And you knew this. iirc almost everyone else had posted before you retracted your claim. I think it's also you saw that no one was going to claim and tried to gain towncred.

[Tr1ckster]

VOTE: Neil

This is L-1.

Reminder to the Doctors.

If you protected me last night, do not protect me tonight.

If you did not protect me last night, protect me tonight.

[Tr1ckster]

Neil.

Almost everyone else had posted when you retracted your claim. Pretty much everyone had had a chance to CC doc. And yet no one did. Who did you think you were protecting?

Zephyr, why have you not yet expressed intent to hammer?

[Tr1ckster]

Just re-read the game set-up... I really had it misunderstood.

Damn.

Well I guess I deserve this then. Like I said, I'm VT, but I did not realize what it meant when both docs are Macho and if one doc dies the other becomes macho... I did kind of screw the town over by counterclaiming. Sorry guys. :/

No one hammer yet.

[Tr1ckster]

No one hammer.

No one vote.

[Tr1ckster]

No one hammer.

No one vote.

Sorry. I meant:

No one hammer.

No one unvote.

[Tr1ckster]

Also Ucitron:
As for that prod dodge, that was terrible. On a real note, either play the game, or replace out.

Neil knows exactly what he is doing.

He urged everyone to play the game. Neil knows exactly what the setup is.

Agreed.

But.

We have a little over two days left. That's plenty of time to hammer if we need to.

I want Shadi to hammer.

Or explain why he won't hammer.

[Tr1ckster]

Neil.

You are going to die.

If Shadi won't hammer or doesn't show in the next 24 hours, Zephyr will hammer and I will probably end up investigating Shadi.

Any last words and a final reads list would be wonderful.

[Tr1ckster]

I'm a little confused as to how the mocking helps the game at all? Does it make you feel better? Then by all means, mock away.

By the way, I kind of wish I was scum this game, just so I could self-hammer and shut the mocking up. It's not exactly the most pleasing thing to read. FYI.

Why does being scum allow you to self hammer?

PEdit:

Neil, if you are town, a final reads list/and or last words would be very helpful. Self-hammering is not, in fact, helpful.

[Tr1ckster]

Ok.

I have an idea...

but this would definitely help:

Anyone have any suggestions for who I should investigate tonight?

[Tr1ckster]

Ok.

I have an idea...

but this would definitely help:

Anyone have any suggestions for who I should investigate tonight?

>.<

As in.. I think I already have a good idea who I'm going to investigate.

Investigate suggestions are welcome

[Tr1ckster]

Neil, if you have nothing productive to say, please do not post any more. Thank you.

[Tr1ckster]

Neil, if you have nothing productive to say, please do not post any more. Thank you.

Actually.. this goes for anyone.

Whether or not anyone has played badly this game should be discussed post-game. Right now it is merely distracting and scum-motivated.

[Tr1ckster]

Neil. You did not read the set up. You risked screwing town. If you are VT, you are in no place to criticize anyone for bad play.

Enough said.

[Tr1ckster]

3rd scum is Shadi, neil's self hammer was to end discussion because shadi could comment on anything that would implicate him.

Agreed. That's why I said what I did

PEd. Self-voting like that is a scum claim in my eyes.

And agreed

[Tr1ckster]

Vonflare = Guilty

[Tr1ckster]

VOTE: Vonflare

[Tr1ckster]

Going back to read Vonflare's ISO and search for scumbuddies.

Props to Sakura for suspecting him yesterday.

Lynch scum D4. I won't be here to help you. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

VCA = Vote Count Analysis, right?

[Tr1ckster]

Before we speedlynch him to death since ur going to die tonight, any last thoughts?

Just a sec. Going back to analyze VF and things.

well done Tricky, but lets not end this day early.

Agreed.

Tho at least it saved me time in making the vonflare case anyway, thanks for the guilty scan.

No problem.

You can still make a case for his scumbuddies!

[Tr1ckster]

Here are my reads (everyone not on this list is null):

Trickster

: scum-ish, mostly because he refuses to elaborate on his ploy when asked about it.

BwBorke

: I don't find him

particularly

scummy, but...

I seem to have fallen into the trap of metagaming too early. That is what I always do - it's just that

none of you are familiar with me and you automatically assume I am scum.

His random assumption that 'if we don't know him we will classify him as scum' really bugs me.

Shadi

:

Also hi Shadi, I hope you aren't scum THIS time.

Oh, time shall show.

That is strange. What does this mean?

Moonlight

: Him and trickster seem to have some kind of unspoken communication, so if one flips scum, the other could use some investigation, but all around, he looks pretty town-motivated, with his ample supply of reads and comments, and the first reads list.

Also, townish post here:

Really? Hm. I thought Zephyr pulled something similar to Burke.

Nah, he's more comparable to neil: a single post where he points at finger at you and votes without explanation. Burke did share his thoughts with his first post.

@Moonlight, I think you're underestimating meta reads, but I guess it's a matter of opinion and experience.

I don't think I've commented on meta reads whatsoever, which post of mine gave you that impression?

So what do you lot think of the fact that most of my post covers Trickster and focuses on me explaining that I think he's town, then question the two who are voting him (but do remember, without a reason)?

I'm thinking it's a solid post, but I'm more interested in seeing all your reads and, more importantly, your thought process behind them.

Sakura

: Looks very town ATM, with lots of banter with trickster trying to examine what he is doing, and these posts look especially town-motivated:

Also, I'm glad you posted. I found it interesting, however, that you did not post after I called you a light scum-read and then posted again after I retracted that read. Coincidence? Maybe.

Here's you pointing out something completely unnecessary considering it means nothing, then why point it out?

Interesting. I already answered this question. Gah. I need to stop talking to you, I read you as scummier with every post you make.

Here you clearly mention that such a thing is giving you a scumread on me.

It would be more fun, this back and forth, if you could come up with something original instead of just OMGUS-ing everywhere...

Then here you say I'm just OMGUSing everywhere, which i point out it's not the reason i'm scumreading on you on my next post.

She overreacts to small reaching accusations that will never get me anywhere if I attempt to get her lynched.

Here you're

clearly pointing out that your reaching accusations are your reaction test

So here's the part where scum knows he messed up and just goes "lol i was reaction testing", Care to tell me in what way am i overreacting and what did you expect from a town reaction from your PoV mr reaction tester?

Here i call you out on your back pedal and ask what you thought would be a townie reaction from your PoV

Also... is it not strange that I accuse you, you back off, I back off, you come back on, we go back and forth for a bit, I accuse you again, you back off... and then you come back later when I haven't backed off again yet? Your posting patterns are funny.

Here you point out again the discrepancy of 2 hours between my posts, which is already explained in my next post, YOU ARE TOTES NOT PUSHING THAT ANGLE, NOPE.

All your trajectory points towards you trying to back pedal your argument, then going back to it, then back pedal again, it's like you've run out of ammo already Mr. Scum.

I seem to have fallen into the trap of metagaming too early. That is what I always do - it's just that none of you are familiar with me and you automatically assume I am scum.

This is quite a bad way to back pedal ffs.
Moonlight reads town so imma reluctantly trust his meta of trickster for the time being (inb4 both of them are scum and i'm falling for a trap).
neil is being awkward i remember him being more pro-active on the game i modded but we will see i'll have to go back to it and see if it was because he replaced into a game already progressed into D3 or what.
Shadi seems to be Shadi so far so null.
Don't really have a good read on anyone else =/

Unvote
Vote: Bwburke

So, in summary, trickster looks scummiest to me ATM, but if he gives a satisfactory answer to whatever-he-is-doing, BwB is my second scumread.

I think this is interesting...

Everyone he mentions here has been confirmed...

Except Shadi.

FoS Shadi

(based on this post and because his play in general just seems scummy to me.)

[Tr1ckster]

@Sakura

True enough. If they were all on Burke at the time of this post:

bwb is almost certainly an easy target here. scum isn't that easy to find on day one. so, who on his wagon is scum?

Lol this is funny considering my last game. Sakura was in that one. We found easy scum d1. Il post a link later, when I get to a computer. (I'm using a phone).

This is interesting.

Here's the list of people on Burke's Wagon at that time:

(L-1) BwBurke: (6) Dr Pants, Moonlight, Tr1ckster, Sakura Hana, vonflare, Zephyrus

Moon = Confscum

Tricks = Conftown

Saku = Conftown

Vonf = Confscum

So then Dr Pants and Zephyr might be the last scum?

I'm hesitant to think Pants is, because of the comment about him and Boro.

FoS Zephyr

Can someone look at Zephyr and Pants for me?

PEdit:

Oops. Beat me to it. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

Here are my reads (everyone not on this list is null):

Trickster

: scum-ish, mostly because he refuses to elaborate on his ploy when asked about it.

BwBorke

: I don't find him

particularly

scummy, but...

I seem to have fallen into the trap of metagaming too early. That is what I always do - it's just that

none of you are familiar with me and you automatically assume I am scum.

His random assumption that 'if we don't know him we will classify him as scum' really bugs me.

Shadi

:

Also hi Shadi, I hope you aren't scum THIS time.

Oh, time shall show.

That is strange. What does this mean?

Moonlight

: Him and trickster seem to have some kind of unspoken communication, so if one flips scum, the other could use some investigation, but all around, he looks pretty town-motivated, with his ample supply of reads and comments, and the first reads list.

Also, townish post here:

Really? Hm. I thought Zephyr pulled something similar to Burke.

Nah, he's more comparable to neil: a single post where he points at finger at you and votes without explanation. Burke did share his thoughts with his first post.

@Moonlight, I think you're underestimating meta reads, but I guess it's a matter of opinion and experience.

I don't think I've commented on meta reads whatsoever, which post of mine gave you that impression?

So what do you lot think of the fact that most of my post covers Trickster and focuses on me explaining that I think he's town, then question the two who are voting him (but do remember, without a reason)?

I'm thinking it's a solid post, but I'm more interested in seeing all your reads and, more importantly, your thought process behind them.

Sakura

: Looks very town ATM, with lots of banter with trickster trying to examine what he is doing, and these posts look especially town-motivated:

Also, I'm glad you posted. I found it interesting, however, that you did not post after I called you a light scum-read and then posted again after I retracted that read. Coincidence? Maybe.

Here's you pointing out something completely unnecessary considering it means nothing, then why point it out?

Interesting. I already answered this question. Gah. I need to stop talking to you, I read you as scummier with every post you make.

Here you clearly mention that such a thing is giving you a scumread on me.

It would be more fun, this back and forth, if you could come up with something original instead of just OMGUS-ing everywhere...

Then here you say I'm just OMGUSing everywhere, which i point out it's not the reason i'm scumreading on you on my next post.

She overreacts to small reaching accusations that will never get me anywhere if I attempt to get her lynched.

Here you're

clearly pointing out that your reaching accusations are your reaction test

So here's the part where scum knows he messed up and just goes "lol i was reaction testing", Care to tell me in what way am i overreacting and what did you expect from a town reaction from your PoV mr reaction tester?

Here i call you out on your back pedal and ask what you thought would be a townie reaction from your PoV

Also... is it not strange that I accuse you, you back off, I back off, you come back on, we go back and forth for a bit, I accuse you again, you back off... and then you come back later when I haven't backed off again yet? Your posting patterns are funny.

Here you point out again the discrepancy of 2 hours between my posts, which is already explained in my next post, YOU ARE TOTES NOT PUSHING THAT ANGLE, NOPE.

All your trajectory points towards you trying to back pedal your argument, then going back to it, then back pedal again, it's like you've run out of ammo already Mr. Scum.

I seem to have fallen into the trap of metagaming too early. That is what I always do - it's just that none of you are familiar with me and you automatically assume I am scum.

This is quite a bad way to back pedal ffs.
Moonlight reads town so imma reluctantly trust his meta of trickster for the time being (inb4 both of them are scum and i'm falling for a trap).
neil is being awkward i remember him being more pro-active on the game i modded but we will see i'll have to go back to it and see if it was because he replaced into a game already progressed into D3 or what.
Shadi seems to be Shadi so far so null.
Don't really have a good read on anyone else =/

Unvote
Vote: Bwburke

So, in summary, trickster looks scummiest to me ATM, but if he gives a satisfactory answer to whatever-he-is-doing, BwB is my second scumread.

bwb is almost certainly an easy target here. scum isn't that easy to find on day one. so, who on his wagon is scum?

Lol this is funny considering my last game. Sakura was in that one. We found easy scum d1. Il post a link later, when I get to a computer. (I'm using a phone).

He has NINE posts so far, so hasn't been very active:

Hm... after reading everything

VOTE: Tr1ckster

Opens up voting trickster, which was logical considering he was acting scummy early game.

So yes. I'm cop.

Oh. And the answer to number two, Why am I not scum, comes when I am uncc'd. Unless someone wishes to cc?

UNVOTE: Tr1ckster

Then unvotes, when tricks claims cop.

BwBurke is looks like a good scum d1 lynch where one of his post (#75) contradicts his earlier vote for trickster.

VOTE: BwBurke

Then makes an interesting case on BwB, becuase he says that a post contradicts his vote on trickster. but this is AFTER tricks claims cop, so this post seems irrelevant. possibly trying to find an excuse to hop on the wagon?

@Shadi - I'm well aware that my vote was L-2

So he KNOWS he might get hammered... and BwB does get hammered (by krystal...)

Trick1ster whats your report?

Asks for the results on moonlight, makes sense...

I want to know why Krystal Bald hammer on BwBurke when we had plenty of time to give BwBurke his last post to defend himself (I believe the countdown was at 6 days left when he hammered).

Well, why don't you ask him?

Zeph re 209- i really thought he was scum. he started getting himself a bandwagon and then he was gone from the thread . i took that as scum avoidance

Ok, so did you saw the fake hammer or not? I would also like some more detail on your thought process instead of "he was getting a bandwagon."

You hammered really quickly without even explaining and your previous posts have all been... well nothing.

This is a good point, although nothing comes of this one either. he put pressure on krystal, but he just stopped there, not bringing it up again.

Post 23 and then post 75 is where I voted for BwBurke. I also decided to pressure him as well to actually post something but Krystal hammered way too quickly before he did have a chance to post.

He explains his vote on BwB, but any scum could have said "I was just pressuring him".

All in all, not too scummy, but some of these posts make me cringe.

Oh look. My analyze the person below you thing turned out to be very helpful.

[Tr1ckster]

Oops. Extra quote. >.<

I fixed it though.

bwb is almost certainly an easy target here. scum isn't that easy to find on day one. so, who on his wagon is scum?

Lol this is funny considering my last game. Sakura was in that one. We found easy scum d1. Il post a link later, when I get to a computer. (I'm using a phone).

He has NINE posts so far, so hasn't been very active:

Hm... after reading everything

VOTE: Tr1ckster

Opens up voting trickster, which was logical considering he was acting scummy early game.

So yes. I'm cop.

Oh. And the answer to number two, Why am I not scum, comes when I am uncc'd. Unless someone wishes to cc?

UNVOTE: Tr1ckster

Then unvotes, when tricks claims cop.

BwBurke is looks like a good scum d1 lynch where one of his post (#75) contradicts his earlier vote for trickster.

VOTE: BwBurke

Then makes an interesting case on BwB, becuase he says that a post contradicts his vote on trickster. but this is AFTER tricks claims cop, so this post seems irrelevant. possibly trying to find an excuse to hop on the wagon?

@Shadi - I'm well aware that my vote was L-2

So he KNOWS he might get hammered... and BwB does get hammered (by krystal...)

Trick1ster whats your report?

Asks for the results on moonlight, makes sense...

I want to know why Krystal Bald hammer on BwBurke when we had plenty of time to give BwBurke his last post to defend himself (I believe the countdown was at 6 days left when he hammered).

Well, why don't you ask him?

Zeph re 209- i really thought he was scum. he started getting himself a bandwagon and then he was gone from the thread . i took that as scum avoidance

Ok, so did you saw the fake hammer or not? I would also like some more detail on your thought process instead of "he was getting a bandwagon."

You hammered really quickly without even explaining and your previous posts have all been... well nothing.

This is a good point, although nothing comes of this one either. he put pressure on krystal, but he just stopped there, not bringing it up again.

Post 23 and then post 75 is where I voted for BwBurke. I also decided to pressure him as well to actually post something but Krystal hammered way too quickly before he did have a chance to post.

He explains his vote on BwB, but any scum could have said "I was just pressuring him".

All in all, not too scummy, but some of these posts make me cringe.

Oh look. My "analyze the person below you" thing actually helped a bit. Someone take a look at this post please?

[Tr1ckster]

Here was the final wagon of D1:

BwBurke

: (7) Dr Pants, Moonlight,

Tr1ckster

,

Sakura Hana

, vonflare, Zephyrus, Krystal Bald
Tr1ckster: (2)

BwBurke

, neil1113
Sakura Hana: (1) Shadi1337

Not Voting: uctriton00, Breshke, BoroPhil

If we ssume the scumteam i'm proposing it'd be looking like this:

BwBurke

: (7) Dr Pants, Moonlight,

Tr1ckster

,

Sakura Hana

, vonflare, Zephyrus,

Krystal Bald

Tr1ckster: (2)

BwBurke

,

neil1113

Sakura Hana: (1) Shadi1337

Not Voting: uctriton00, Breshke,

BoroPhil

Does this make sense? doesn't look like it, hence why i think Boro's prob town that's a victim of scum buddying: I think something like this would make more sense:

BwBurke

: (7) Dr Pants, Moonlight,

Tr1ckster

,

Sakura Hana

, vonflare, Zephyrus,

Krystal Bald

Tr1ckster: (2)

BwBurke

,

neil1113

Sakura Hana: (1) Shadi1337

Not Voting: uctriton00, Breshke,

BoroPhil

Hence i'd be looking at a pool of Shadi, uctriton and Breshke for the 3rd scum partner, I highly doubt scum had much to do with Burke's lynch if Moonlight's town, considering one of the things I know is that "Town is stupid enough to get mislynches on their own and scum needs no way to influence it", as such it's more than likely that 1 or zero scum are on the D1 final wagon.

I'll probably do a full blown VCA later, right now, busy.

I hadn't thought to do a votecount analysis, but this is well done.

Seems logical, but although krystal and neil look pretty scummy, none of those 3 on the pool of 3rd partners look too scummy.

Although that is probably because those are my only two scumreads.

Hmm.

Gonna ISO those 3 in the 3rd partner pool.

This is interesting. Boro is the person who he says doesn't look pretty scummy.

Hmmm....

[Tr1ckster]

Also given that scum is vonflare and Moonlight, I don't think they engaged in any bussing yesterday. I think this clears Zephyrus

Ok. He didn't exactly bus him, though. He said Zephyr actually looked kind of town.

[Tr1ckster]

Ok.
Here's who's alive:
uctriton00, Dr Pants, Shadi1337, vonflare, Zephyrus, Sakura Hana, Lia, BoroPhil, Tr1ckster

Of those, Sakura and I are conftown and Vonflare is confscum.

So then uctriton00, Dr Pants, Shadi1337, Zephyrus, Lia, and BoroPhil are undecided.

Assuming Moon and Vonflare didn't vote for anyone on their team, triton, Boro, and Zeph are town.

Which leaves Pants, Shadi, and Lia up for investigation.

PEdit: Yeah. I see it. I'm analyzing Moon's interactions with Pants, Shadi, and Lia now.

[Tr1ckster]

From the first group, I don't like how Pants is not engaging others directly but instead sits back and analyzes. I have a lot of trouble finding intent behind that kind of playstyle and his comment on activity doesn't help (possible fluff to appear pro-Town). vonflare's posts say a lot and at the same time... do not. Can't tell if he is sheep-prone or what, didn't look like it at the start of D1.

He groups Pants with vonflare here while everyone else gets a separate paragraph. Interesting.

However:

The wagons that don't result in a lynch don't matter in my opinion. Scum can hide in there together without consequences, the only thing I pay attention to is the wagon on the one that gets lynched. From my perspective, there are 1 or 2 scum in Pants, vonflare, Zeph and Krystal and

the rest of the scum

in neil, Shadi, triton, Lia, Boro.

(emphasis by me)

Does the fact that we found scum on Vonflare from the first grouping clear Pants?

If it does, due to previous analysis, we only have to look at Shadi and Lia now.

[Tr1ckster]

As far as I understand he's still with us.

[Tr1ckster]

I'm starting to look at a Zeph/triton/vonflare scumteam and it's looking legit. The latter has been completely avoiding to involve himself in anything (is 512 all he has to say about what has been going on?!) and 456 was quite the reaction to being called scummy.

I won't be happy with a lynch on anyone other than those three today.

PEdit: Sakura, I had to bring it up because apparently common sense is not so common. As for neil, have you missed 255? I haven't suspected him since then.

Hm. Moonlight suspected Vonflare earlier. Does this mean he might actually vote for his partner? I don't know. We'd have to look at it later.

One thing that's interesting...

Moon never really addresses Lia or Pants. He talks about them indirectly.

But he talks directly to Shadi and vonflare a couple times.

This is interesting.

[Tr1ckster]

Overall.. I think Pants is cleared. Maybe. Because vonflare suspects pants several times. Although... Moon suspected vonflare several times. I don't know.

[Tr1ckster]

I believe Trick is town his way of eliminating players is not the best imo..

No, I'm pretty bad at reading players. Usually I try to generate content that gives people good stuff to base their reads on...

Hence the scummy questions at the beginning of the game (that I knew I could get away with 'cuz I could claim cop)...

and I usually pull a gambit or two...

But actually reading people? Naw. I suck at that. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

and I usually pull a gambit or two...

Heh, so you're another of the gambit ppl?

Yep. I usually rely on the rest of town to make stuff out of my gambit. I'm rarely very good myself.

[Tr1ckster]

And as a PSA, look how vonflare has now just quit the game. Tsk tsk.

I know, it's disappointing...

Maybe I should have waited on posting my results.

[Tr1ckster]

@vonflare

I understand how you feel. I've definitely been there before. However, I think it might be best for town if we work out as much as possible who's scum right now and take as much advantage of today as possible.

I don't know about the rest of town, but I would like to take advantage of today as much as possible. I (personally) would be fine if you just posted a prod dodge every 40 hours simply because truly contributing to the game at this point would be playing against your WINCON, but I would like to take advantage of as much of today as possible.

[Tr1ckster]

So trick, what are your thoughts on Lem and the post where I broke down his first post.

I agree.

Like I said (Or at least I thought I said) before, I've thought Shadi was scum since the beginning of the game. I sent my investigation in at last minute last night and decided to go with your scum read instead of mine, but Shadi was right behind Vonflare in the investigation list.

Lem's post only confirmed this for me. To the point where I would be perfectly fine with lynching her today and vonflare tomorrow.

[Tr1ckster]

No, we lynch confscum today, no ifs or buts about it. That doesn't mean we waste all the day, but just remember that we lynch vonflare today.

Don't worry, I know. I'm simply expressing my certainty. If I thought she was a better lynch today I would have my vote on her. Instead my vote shows I still believe vonflare is the best lynch as it is still on him atm. I'm not as stupid as you seem to project me to be.

[Tr1ckster]

Alright.

I don't see much more information coming out of the players at this point.

Good game, everyone. It was fun playing with you.

You can lynch VF now.

[Tr1ckster]

On a technical note, if we lynched Shadi's replacement and she came up scum, would the game automatically end since vonflare has admitted he's guilty?

That was my thought, but the reason I don't think we should do it is because it would be a luxury lynch. If we lynched her and she came up town then we still have two scum to kill tomorrow and we've wasted time scum-hunting wise. The scum don't have to defend themselves tomorrow, they just have to vote for vonflare and they won't get questionned at all.

So simply because we can't be 100% sure she's scum yet, we should lynch vonflare now.

[Tr1ckster]

Vote: Vonflare

Let's go then, thanks for clearing me trickster, and I intend to do all i can to win this as conf town, see ya everyone tomorrow.

No problem. I'm glad I cleared you.

[Tr1ckster]

Also...

is it just me or is it weird that pants is waiting to vote for vonflare? O_o

[Tr1ckster]

VOTE: vonflare

BYE!

bai scum! ~

PEdit: maybe you should stop playing with her, then. I think she has that kind of affect on people.

[Tr1ckster]

T'was fun.

And maybe we can pull a win anyways.

Naw. Sorry bro. It's game over.

[Tr1ckster]

Yes!

*rejoices*

Good game everyone!

I'm so glad I conf'd you, Sakura. It was awesome working with you.. (thanks for putting up with me )

I just have to say "Told Ya So!" Because I called out Shadi as scum D1.

[Tr1ckster]

Thank you for moderating, Baezu. The flavor was great! I would have preferred knowing the flip immediately so I could rejoice in my head while I waited for the flavor instead of waiting impatiently for it to happen... but that's just personal preference. I really enjoyed this game!

[Tr1ckster]

As for the scum-claim, I did some research and realized it's generally against mafiascum rules to do so -it's not where I came from.

I have my opinions about this... but that's for a different time and place.

[Tr1ckster]

I like my record.

Town: 2-0
Scum: 0-2

In other words...

Town wins in every game I've played.

[Tr1ckster]

@Tricks: I haven't forgotten you, and I think I have just the ticket. PM incoming.

Cool. Thanks!

The Dead QT:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/K8q5veufVHeW

[Tr1ckster]

Tricks noticed it clearly when he said "Why would you be lazy when you're going to be conf town"

Yes.

I also lied when I said the pressure was fake, Moonlight. It was a tactic to make you feel a little more comfortable and help me look for scumbuddies. I was pretty certain you were scum since this post.

Also, I have resolved to not back down from someone when I've got a scum read on them. I'm sad that I backed down off of Shadi. :'(

[Tr1ckster]

Who was the one who discovered Moonlight?

Actually, I call dibs on the credit for Moonlight and Shadi. Just sayin.

[Tr1ckster]

Dibs shmibs, Town played better than we did, you deserved to win and you did. Each of you contributed in one way or another, some more than others.

And this is why you're one of the best Mafia players in my books.

[Tr1ckster]

Dibs shmibs, Town played better than we did, you deserved to win and you did. Each of you contributed in one way or another, some more than others.

And this is why you're one of the best Mafia players in my books.

Well... one of the reasons, at least.

[Tr1ckster]

Fourth, good game, well played all, I'm sorry Tr1ckster for calling you a moron etc., my blood can get a bit hot when I play mafia.

No problem. And understood. I think everyone's blood gets a bit hot during mafia. I don't let anything said inside a game get to me.

[Tr1ckster]

Fourth, good game, well played all, I'm sorry Tr1ckster for calling you a moron etc., my blood can get a bit hot when I play mafia.

No problem. And understood. I think everyone's blood gets a bit hot during mafia. I don't let anything said inside a game get to me.