Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)
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acryon Mafia Scum
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acryon Mafia Scum
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Fair enough. This is the first game where I have actually been here at the very start, so I'm glad I am here to ask the hard-hitting questions right off the bat!-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 21, wgeurts wrote:In post 16, Wisdom wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: mathdino
Hi Newbie, how do you feel about voting Mathdino with us?
Why are you changing your vote?
Not voting until there's more info.
I sometimes come in and abstain from voting during RVS because most others have voted and I don't like to add to the noise, which makes sense as a reason to me. But your reason is that you don't have enough info...for arandomvote?-
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In post 24, Newbie wrote:Honestly, I know people here do joke votes on the first day, but where I'm from, the time limit is much smaller so we get serious pretty quickly. Therefore, I will not throw out a vote until more people begin to post and things get rolling and then I can start analyzing.
But don't you think it first requires players voting randomly to get the ball rolling?-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 28, Mathdino wrote:Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?
@wgeurts: RVS wagons can be good ways of getting reactions out of people. Why so concerned?
Speaking of reactions, you're kind of under the heat Mathdino. How does it feel? Why are you town?-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 30, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 28, Mathdino wrote:Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?
Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?
I think it's fine. Especially with someone who seems to be new, it's nice to get a feel for how they play so you don't end up just writing off the things they do as "newbie".-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 32, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 31, acryon wrote:In post 30, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 28, Mathdino wrote:Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?
Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?
I think it's fine. Especially with someone who seems to be new, it's nice to get a feel for how they play so you don't end up just writing off the things they do as "newbie".
Thanks Mathdino that's what I wanted to.....hold up a sec. Your not Mathdino.
I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, whichtendsto be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 41, wgeurts wrote:In post 40, Wisdom wrote:In post 36, wgeurts wrote:In post 22, Wisdom wrote:Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?
Not good.
What are you going to do about that?
Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom
So you said you wouldn't vote until there was more info.Thisis more info? Explain.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 43, wgeurts wrote:It's weak info and very assumptious but ok:
You could well be trying to decieve people to look like your a joking town while you may be scum.
It's all the info I've got right now, it's time for me to wait for more.
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 46, Mathdino wrote:Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.
FoS: that guy
Yeah, my vote stands. I'm interested to hear what Victor's intent was asking that?-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 48, wgeurts wrote:
I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom
That's it? Why wouldn't you leave your vote on and keep some pressure to get more/better reactions out of Wisdom? Seems odd to say that there's nothing to gain there after one small exchange.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 52, VictorDeAngelo wrote:Why not let him answer for himself?
And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?
It completely depends on intent and outcome. I think Mathdino's intent was to establish a play-style for Newbie which he could compare to Newbie's play as the game goes on, so as to avoid writing off Newbie's actions as newb-scum or newb-town. This is a good intent and a favorable outcome for town, as it potentially helps us avoid a mislynch based on bad information. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the outcome for town from your question is that he answers exactly as he did, but then others may avoid those types of questions in fear of being scrutinized, which is overall a negative for town. Not that I think your question carried the kind of weight to make an impact quite like that, but I do think it discourages certain forms of questioning.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 54, wgeurts wrote:In post 53, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
Also, I have new person I want wagon.
VOTE: wgeurts
Everyone get aboard.
Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.
Well then you aren't thinking hard enough, because of the handful of posts you have had, they have certainly been suspect.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 57, wgeurts wrote:Also, why does it bother you that I'm not voting him?
Are you possibly scum knowing he's town?
As far as I know we're still only just leaving RVS.
It doesn't bother me personally that you're not voting him. But if you are interested in getting out of RVS(which I think we are by now), then I don't know that voting and then un-voting after one exchange is going to give the reactions necessary to do that.
In post 58, wgeurts wrote:In post 56, acryon wrote:Well then you aren't thinking hard enough, because of the handful of posts you have had, they have certainly been suspect.
Care to explain what is suspect about them may I ask?
It's nothing major, but the fact that you expressed your unwillingness to vote until there is more information and then turning around and voting Wisdom was kind of an odd move.
43 with the comment "It's time for me to wait some more" just sounded very off IMO. At first you make it sound like you don't vote in RVS, then you vote in RVS, then when someone calls you out on that you decide that it's time to wait again. Then you say there is nothing to gain from the Wisdom vote in 48 which is odd considering the whole point of voting in RVS is to see what comes out, so why would you decide that nothing would come of it?
I didn't say it was super scummy, but I think it'd be a little silly to say that your early set of posts weren't at least a little bit "odd" and at least somewhat deserving of a second look/pressure vote.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 68, Malakittens wrote:Newbie is probtown.
Why?-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 89, wgeurts wrote:There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.
I called out out on your vote the very post after you voted. And you said you wouldn't vote until you had more info, but then you say that you used your vote to gain more info. Using votes to get info is very important, but it doesn't match up with how you said you would be voting, which is why I pointed it out.
In post 90, Malakittens wrote:
Mainly gut in accordance to how her posts are coming off. She doesn't really come off panicky or nervous or anything like that. Her giving out the information about the sites etc doesn't feel like it's from a scum agenda.
That's fair, but then again I don't know that Newbie would come across panicky or nervous as scum, since, as they said, they are sort of still learning the site. And I think someone references this later, but she was asked for the sites, so it would look kind of bad if she didn't give them. And she could lie about it, but if for some reason someone happened to know it was Newbie from another site, then she would be screwed. Something tells me it just wouldn't be worth it to run that lie as scum anyway. It's null to me.
In post 91, wgeurts wrote:I should of been clearer, I don't vote for no reasons in the RVS, that doesn't mean I won't vote. There was also nothing to gain from the wisdom exchange as there were no real reads/tells to base it off. However it did achieve it's goal of making us leave RVS.
Another point, is it scummy to say you're going to abstain or to just abstain and lurk?
My point about the Wisdom exchange is that one back-and-forth is far too little to determine "there were no real reads/tells to base it off". Scum don't tend to slip at all after one question; it's after consistent pressure that their stories sometimes get twisted.
In post 92, Malakittens wrote:In post 29, acryon wrote:In post 28, Mathdino wrote:Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?
@wgeurts: RVS wagons can be good ways of getting reactions out of people. Why so concerned?
Speaking of reactions, you're kind of under the heat Mathdino. How does it feel? Why are you town?
I thought it was pretty clear that this post was only semi-serious, and was just to see how he would handle the question. There was obviously not a good answer to why he was town, but it can certainly be tellinghowsomeone handles this type of question.
In post 109, wgeurts wrote:You do realise sometimes people let stuff slip easier if they think they're safe?
This is just wrong.
For what it's worth though, all of these exchanges with wgeurts do lead me to believe he is town. He may be wrong, but I think he is wrong town.
Here's the thing. I have seen this type of thing happen many times IRL and several times in my few games on here, and it almost always comes from scum. I always try to call it out when I see it, because it tends to be the beginnings of scum controlling the flow of conversation, something I'm not interested in seeing happen. There is a difference between questioning someone for the sake of getting information with which to base reads and questioning someone about how they are playing the game. The former is more often town and the latter is more often scum.
P-edit: Sorry for the wall-post ><-
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In post 121, SilverWolf wrote:If you think that comment from VDA could of come from scum, do you think it would of been better to see how Mathdino responded to it and where VDA was going with it?
In short, no. There was only one real answer, and I think there is more value for town in interjecting denying that type of questioning than hear the obvious answer.
In post 121, SilverWolf wrote:You say you are worried about scum controlling the flow of conversations, but don't you think you are doing the same thing by injecting yourself into the conversation and trying to control it?
In a sense, yes, but I would argue that I was trying to (not to be overly dramatic) ensure the power remains with the town majority rather than in the hands of one. I know this all seems like I am making a bigger deal out of something than it really is, but I have seen scum do this type of thing enough times that I would rather call it out when I see it. In the past when I haven't, I end up getting lynched later on because the town is already wrapped around their finger, and then we are in an even worse spot.
I also want to be clear that I'm not saying VDA is definitive scum at all, but that type of question specifically has come from scum far more often than not in my experience, and I would rather establish this idea now than later on in the game where it may look like I am grasping at straws.-
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In post 134, wgeurts wrote:I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.
While I'm usually the first to say that I hate meta, specifically with experienced players, I think it could actually be somewhat beneficial in the context of Newbie. Additionally, there is both scum and town-motivation to provide the meta in that spot, so it is definitely a null.
In post 132, wgeurts wrote:Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.
Let's be honest here. If your intent with that vote was to get us out of RVS, then why did you almost immediately back down and unvote before much of anything even came of it?-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 158, Malakittens wrote:@Acyron:
The problem I had with you answering a question that was for someone else is you could influence their answer. if I'm looking for a certain reaction or someone else is looking for a certain answer and you injecting explaining how you feel automatically removes any intent to do so which isn't something that town should do. In fact you doing that is something scum does in order to protect a scum partner. So yes I hated you doing it because it influenced an answer while giving the feeling you are trying to protect someone.
I definitely agree with you in theory. But in this circumstance, it wasn't exactly an overly-complicated question and there was only one real, and very simple answer. In this case, I don't think what I did stopped any extra information anyway.
In post 186, Wisdom wrote:Eh. Tbh I feel like scum wouldn't do it so blatantly.
Yes, but the problem is the rest of his posting this game has shown a lot of newb-tells, which means it's hard to say what wgeurts scum would do in that spot, so the WIFOM applies even less. A lot of his posting could be applied to newb-town, newb-scum, and regular scum, which one I am not quite sure yet.-
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In post 209, Wisdom wrote:I don't see him blatantly stating "Are you a mason" as a newbscum. As regular scum imitating a newbtown maybe.
Well certainly. I said "most" of his posting. There are some things he has said that are far more likely to come from one or the other, but I think overall a lot of it could come from any of them.-
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I want to preface this by saying sorry for the wall, but you guys post a lot in a couple days a person is gone!
In post 261, Malakittens wrote:Okay my loves. The wagon on Wge is bad and you all unvote. This is townflail and not scumflail
I think this lady is right people. The only issue that I think may be worth pointing out is that wgeurts sort of kept doing his own thing until mala stepped in and posted this. This psot from her seemed to cause his turn-around, so it reads to me like it could possibly be coaching. Although I think there is averysmall chance that this is actually the case, I think it is worth noting.
In post 265, Wisdom wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts
Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.
It definitely seems fishy, to be sure, but at the same time, I'm not sure what his possible courses of action could have been. Stay the course until he gets lynched? That doesn't seem too great. You pretty much have to move on from here. Like I said, it does strike me as a little odd that it took Mala saying something for him to do it, but it had to happen sometime I guess, so I'd rather not put too much weight on that interaction.
In post 288, wgeurts wrote:Also, what's stopping from all masons claiming?
It would confirm 3 town out of 13, masons aren't exactly more powerful than town.
I don't think wgerts is scum, but it's almost as some made-up role that benefits from being lynched. If people still think he may be scum, I think we are much better off waiting it out, because you can just ignore the comments like the above in the mean-time, and he is almost definitely town. I think we are wasting our time discussing what is pretty clearly, IMO, a bad bad lynch.
In post 308, SilverWolf wrote:In post 307, Newbie wrote:
I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.
unvote
vote: Wisdom
This is a good point and it is worth pointing out that as soon as wgeurts said Wisdom may be scum pushing his wagon from the sidelines and not backing it up with a vote, he immediately votes wgeurts on the faulty reasoning that he unvoted himself even though he was asked to do so by several and asked to give the reads he did on his wagon. This was a no-win situation for wgeurts. Something I can see scum pushing.
I don't actually like this argument at all. It has been abundantly clear where Wisdom's intentions were. As someone that tends to prefer questioning over voting for pressure, I can relate to this somewhat. If a wgerts lynch went through, I doubt anyone would be ignorant enough to think that Wisdom wasn't involved in getting the wagon going. Wisdom is still a null to me at this point, but I think this argument is bad.
In post 323, SilverWolf wrote:In post 319, Wisdom wrote:One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.
Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and actually go after real scum, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.
This is just a very confusing comment and I'm not sure what to make of it. Definitely seems like some weird AtE. I can't say for sure, but it just really rubs me the wrong way.
In post 335, SilverWolf wrote:Sure new players can be scum and no I don't feel like I'm going to be lynched yet. I'm not understanding the scum case you and mathdino are working up to on me tbh. I feel like it is very superficial. I am giving my opinions and you two are jumping on me for it and again, for reasons that are not clear to me. It feels like a set-up.
This is just a very weak defense. It looks like you ran a random-mafia-defense generator and this came out.
In post 347, SilverWolf wrote:
The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself.
How is that bad at all? Some people like to question players directly, and others like to present some information and poll the audience.
In post 347, SilverWolf wrote:I'm seriously questioning even continuing with this game as I don't like spending the majority of my time on defense over accusations that make no sense and that I can't seem to defend myself from because you two aren't going to like anything I say.
That takes all the fun out of the game for me and I can relate even more to what wgeurts was feeling.
More AtE. That is what this game is. If you aren't on the defense, someone else is.
Breaking vote parity may be helpful, especially since I don't like the case on Wisdom. So someone needs to give me a better reason than what has been presented.
VOTE: SilverWolfGet to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 356, VictorDeAngelo wrote:354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup. ?
I said there was averysmall chance that this was what was happening, so I understood it was a big stretch.
And I obviously wasn't referring to him actually being a jester. I know the set-up of this game and I had never heard of a jester so I didn't even know that was a thing. I was more of commenting on the complete silliness of his play, because it almost seems like he wants to be lynched because of how bad some of the stuff he is saying is. It's just so hard for me to believe that someone who is actually scum could be saying things that were that scummy. That kind of player is almost always town in my experience, but at the same time, when the slot of scum it makes you feel like an idiot for not lynching them much earlier.
I am pretty confident wgeurts is town, but that is purely based on my experience with players that are playing like he does. That's probably stupid play on my part, but it's kind of hard to ignore my gut, at least this early in the game when it's the main thing I have to work from. SilverWolf definitely seems like a much better lynch to me, but a wgeruts lynch could possibly give us some good information, especially if he does happen to flip scum. But I don't exactly like the idea of lynching based on that.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 358, SilverWolf wrote:@acryon-tell me exactly why I am such a good lynch. So far you've said AtE and vote parity because you don't like the Wisdom wagon. Is that it so far?
I thought I said more than that? And others said things that I didn't feel I needed to repeat. But I will for posterity.
-Use of AtE more than once.(323, 347)
-Very weak defense that lacked any real conviction. (335)
-Terrible argument about Dino "fabricating" a case on you. (437)
-Agreement with Newbie's weak argument that you back up with similarly flawed reasoning. (308)
-Agreement with Newbie another time where Newbie's argument wasn't necessarily bad, but your post added approximately nothing (84)
-Reasoning for voting Victor was just an argument I made much earlier; nothing original added at all. (98)
-In 121, after just saying in 98 that you thought the questioning of Victor was making a problem out of nothing, you question my questioning of Victor on it, asking where it might have gone even though in 98 you eluded to the fact that it wasn't an actual problem, and was thus, going nowhere.
-135. Not sure how that vote from Newbie would have been opportunistic at all. It was completely in the spotlight and was the second vote on the wagon. I would hardly call that opportunistic. If Newbie was 3rd or 4th maybe, and if Newbie's reasoning was bad, but it wasn't terrible.
-247 is another seemingly pro-town comment that lacks any real original content.
TLDR; other than the first two points I made, a lot of it has to do with you piggy-backing off of others' content to make it seem like you are scum-hunting. Opportunistic, in short.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 359, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 357, acryon wrote:In post 356, VictorDeAngelo wrote:354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup. ?
And I obviously wasn't referring to him actually being a jester. I know the set-up of this game and I had never heard of a jester so I didn't even know that was a thing. I was more of commenting on the complete silliness of his play, because it almost seems like he wants to be lynched because of how bad some of the stuff he is saying is. It's just so hard for me to believe that someone who is actually scum could be saying things that were that scummy. That kind of player is almost always town in my experience, but at the same time, when the slot of scum it makes you feel like an idiot for not lynching them much earlier.
I don't really like the whole too scummy to be scum argument. It assumes that scum are always experienced and competent and yet townies will derp around and make bad plays.
I know, which is why I am torn on this. The main reason being that the majority of "too scum to be scum" players in my experience are in fact, town.
In post 359, VictorDeAngelo wrote:I am pretty confident wgeurts is town, but that is purely based on my experience with players that are playing like he does. That's probably stupid play on my part, but it's kind of hard to ignore my gut, at least this early in the game when it's the main thing I have to work from. SilverWolf definitely seems like a much better lynch to me, but a wgeruts lynch could possibly give us some good information, especially if he does happen to flip scum. But I don't exactly like the idea of lynching based on that.
What's wrong with lynching for information? Day 1 lynches tend to be the least important in terms of actually catching scum and often simply lynching a scummy player is good play. If Wguertes is town then he is playing badly, he's claimed vt (so if we leave him alive then scum have one less target when hunting masons) and he will always be a question mark going forward (since there's no way of clearing players).
This is definitely a good point. Even on day 1, however, I would rather not resort to an informational lynch with a (IMO) low probability of being scum. I think my inability to really read the player makes me uneasy about making any lynch decision on them. Definitely a wgeurts lynch is better than a no-lynch and a number of other possible lynches. But I would still need to be convinced that it's a better lynch than someone like SilverWolf.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 362, SilverWolf wrote:In post 360, acryon wrote:In post 358, SilverWolf wrote:@acryon-tell me exactly why I am such a good lynch. So far you've said AtE and vote parity because you don't like the Wisdom wagon. Is that it so far?
I thought I said more than that?And others said things that I didn't feel I needed to repeat. But I will for posterity.
-Use of AtE more than once.(323, 347)
-Very weak defense that lacked any real conviction. (335)
-Terrible argument about Dino "fabricating" a case on you. (437)
-Agreement with Newbie's weak argument that you back up with similarly flawed reasoning. (308)
-Agreement with Newbie another time where Newbie's argument wasn't necessarily bad, but your post added approximately nothing (84)
-Reasoning for voting Victor was just an argument I made much earlier; nothing original added at all. (98)
-In 121, after just saying in 98 that you thought the questioning of Victor was making a problem out of nothing, you question my questioning of Victor on it, asking where it might have gone even though in 98 you eluded to the fact that it wasn't an actual problem, and was thus, going nowhere.
-135. Not sure how that vote from Newbie would have been opportunistic at all. It was completely in the spotlight and was the second vote on the wagon. I would hardly call that opportunistic. If Newbie was 3rd or 4th maybe, and if Newbie's reasoning was bad, but it wasn't terrible.
-247 is another seemingly pro-town comment that lacks any real original content.
TLDR; other than the first two points I made, a lot of it has to do with you piggy-backing off of others' content to make it seem like you are scum-hunting. Opportunistic, in short.
So far you are just disagreeing with the points I am making and using the same old argument mathdino and Wisdom are using regarding the piggy-backing without using any real original content. I've already answered to this. You just don't like it. Where's your original content in your case above?
Which is why I only posted the original parts in my post with the vote on you, as I mentioned in the very post you just replied to...Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 365, VictorDeAngelo wrote:@Acryon- Let me put it this way, other than silverwolf, how many players in the game right now would you say are scummier than Wgeurtes (I don't need a list of names just a rough number)?
@Silverwolf- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?
Other than Silverwolf, probably 0. I'm unsure on Wisdom, but the actual cases made by those on his wagon suck.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 367, SilverWolf wrote:In post 365, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
@Silverwolf- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?
That is the reason they are giving for scumreading me. Telling me I am sheeping other ideas without providing original content. I've answered to this but it continues to be used.
So why is it a problem for me and not for them?
Wrong. The reason for you isconsistentsheeping. Scum are never usually scummy for singular actions, but for patterns.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 371, SilverWolf wrote:
Except this is the exact thing I am being attacked over. Having similar reasons for scumreading someone that someone else has. It makes no sense to me.
And what is your answer to my response other than "I didn't ask you"?Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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Ok, here are some specifics SilverWolf.
In post 354, acryon wrote:
In post 347, SilverWolf wrote:
The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself.
How is that bad at all? Some people like to question players directly, and others like to present some information and poll the audience.
In post 354, acryon wrote:In post 308, SilverWolf wrote:In post 307, Newbie wrote:
I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.
unvote
vote: Wisdom
This is a good point and it is worth pointing out that as soon as wgeurts said Wisdom may be scum pushing his wagon from the sidelines and not backing it up with a vote, he immediately votes wgeurts on the faulty reasoning that he unvoted himself even though he was asked to do so by several and asked to give the reads he did on his wagon. This was a no-win situation for wgeurts. Something I can see scum pushing.
I don't actually like this argument at all. It has been abundantly clear where Wisdom's intentions were. As someone that tends to prefer questioning over voting for pressure, I can relate to this somewhat. If a wgerts lynch went through, I doubt anyone would be ignorant enough to think that Wisdom wasn't involved in getting the wagon going. Wisdom is still a null to me at this point, but I think this argument is bad.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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You haven't discussed either of the posts I just quoted above with anyone.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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*Sigh* Nobody discussed the two posts I was commented on from you, nor are there answers to the comments I posed in the quotes I re-posted above.
For the sake of avoiding beating a dead horse, I'll make things very simple and clear. Forget what I think about the rest of your posting history and everything else, and just answer me these questions.
Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?
Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 382, SilverWolf wrote:In post 381, acryon wrote:*Sigh* Nobody discussed the two posts I was commented on from you, nor are there answers to the comments I posed in the quotes I re-posted above.
For the sake of avoiding beating a dead horse, I'll make things very simple and clear. Forget what I think about the rest of your posting history and everything else, and just answer me these questions.
Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?
I answered MathDino last night when he asked me this and you'll find it in my ISO. If you have something else you want to know, ask.
You really didn't. The comment I made was on this post:
In post 347, SilverWolf wrote:
The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself. You are accusing me of not having much of a case on Wisdom but your case on me was much weaker. I feel like both yourself and Wisdom are picking at anyone you think is going to be an easy target which makes me look at both of you as scum looking for the easy mislynch.
And he never replied to you after that so you couldn't have replied to his question about that post.
In post 382, SilverWolf wrote:In post 381, acryon wrote:Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?
No and Yes. I explained the problem I had with Wisdom's vote and several other posts laying out my case in detail last night. If you have a specific question, that has not been discussed already, ask.
Bottom line is, I'm not going to continue to repeat myself on issues you are bringing up that have already been discussed in detail and are not original thoughts from you. The same issue you say you are having with me.
Here is what I think the problem is. You seem to think that there is only one answer to any number of questions concerning something you did. The reality is, there are many pieces to a single comment/action, and I commented on, and asked you to address, pieces that hadn't been addressed yet. If anyone thinks I am being too nit-picky here, then fine, but I don't think what I'm asking for is overly-complicated. Clearly I'm not convinced that you had answered the questionsIwas asking, so you could have easily just linked the responses you thought fulfilled what I was looking for, because I can't find them.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 405, Wisdom wrote:Mathdino, I could see SilverWolf being town actually. There is a passion in her defenses that makes me think they might be genuine. I also think that as scum she would more try to appease you than antagonise you.
I feel wgeurts is the much better choice for today.
I would much prefer a SilverWolf lynch, but if that can't get going then I do think wgeurts is the next best.
In post 407, SilverWolf wrote:
Revisiting wgeurts-181 and 182are horrible and I am wondering if scum would be so blatant about 182 but it was extremely scummy. Many of his posts in his defense of himself to mathdino I can totally relate to as are his emotional responses. 264 looks like a town post. 287 I can completely understand. 288 was scummy as hell.
Yeah, So this is a tough read. I feel he is frustrated town but some of his posts are so scummy that it's hard to ignore. Not sure here. Would like him to come back to the thread.
This post to me reads like an opportunity to kill the momentum on his own wagon by adding onto the existing wgeurts wagon.
In post 410, FinnLaw wrote:Just a quick thought I wanted to put out there. While Mathdino seems to be the biggest scum hunter so far, his posts are very detailed and analytical. I am finding Mathdino's voting suspicious. It's very wishy washy. His vote has changed 3 times in one real time day (yesterday).
What do people think about Mathdino's posting?
@Mathdino, I see you've asked for my views on the Silver discussion. I'll get back to you later tonight with where I stand on it. Need to check whether something Silver claimed is true or not.
it is completely fine. MathDino is super super town IMO. He is doing actual scum-hunting, and his vote-switching just shows his desire to let multiple people feel the pressure, which is good.
In post 413, Wisdom wrote:I don't see why it's unlikely that a wgeurts lynch will happen. We have plenty of time left and even a slot who hasn't posted.
Here is the problem with the wgeurts lynch. Everyone thinks he is playing very scummy and saying very scummy things. In fact, I'm suspicious of anyone who seems totally convinced that he is definitely town, because I don't think anyone should be able to say confidently at this point that he is. However, despite everyone thinking he is doing scummy things, not many people really think he is actually scum. Newbie's just throw everything off, and I know personally I am constantly questioning my newbie reads.
I'm not saying this is damning, but wgeurts has been on and posting actively in other threads since his last post on here, but hasn't posted here. This could be him recognizing that by stepping away he could let someone else (SilverWolf) take some heat and hopefully his wagon would die down.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 416, SilverWolf wrote:In post 412, Mathdino wrote:
Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.
There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.
I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 421, SilverWolf wrote:In post 418, acryon wrote:In post 416, SilverWolf wrote:In post 412, Mathdino wrote:
Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.
There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.
I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.
I'm not sure where you come up with that idea since we have a week or more until deadline and several haven't contributed enough yet to even determine where they stand yet.
386 is a good example of where the town is at generally. I think it would be hard for wgeurts to do anything even scummier than he has done so far, so I doubt new actions by him will change much of the case. At this point, you either think wgeurts' scummy actions are probably scum, or you think they are probably town. I don't think many people are truly on the fence. Either you are willing to vote the kind of play from that kind of player, or you're not at this point. That's my thoughts at least. Reading back over this, it is kind of confusing, but I'm trying to say that basically there is a small chance someone is going to "connect the dots" with wgeurts posts and crack the case wide open. It kind of is what it is at this point.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 423, SilverWolf wrote:Yeah, he's said some scummy things no doubt. Some of his posts look like frustrated newbtown also. Just because I haven't committed to a vote yet and want to hear more from him, in no way means I am never going to vote for him. I would not allow a NL to happen on D1 regardless if it came to that and there's a week left.
Well I don't think anyone is saying it's between a NL and wgeurts, because I think we would all accept a deadline wgeurts lynch over a NL. But I think the idea is that at this point in time, it certainly seems that the traction isn't there for a lynch-proper.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 439, TellTaleHeart wrote:
I'm reading post 360 by acryon and I'm very confused. For one, the last post he links (247) is not to a Silver Wolf post at all, it's to a Newbie post. Overall, this seems to be an echo of Mathdino's case, which is that Silver Wolf is a sheep (ironic, a Wolf in a sheep's clothes, I know).
That tag should have been to 257--my mistake. But myself, as well as Mathdino have already pointed out what parts of my case/questioning differed from simply the sheep argument.
In post 446, Malakittens wrote:Wge would have to be really ballsy scum and be confident that his partners are good at playing scum to intentionally mason fish in thread.
You don't think that could come from ignorant/newb-scum?Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 456, TellTaleHeart wrote:I don't care for a few things this post. The mason fishing argument is bunk and Malakittens has wgeurts as a townread anyway so I'm not sure where these hypothetical associative tells come into play or why it's worth mentioning. Also, I've notice that multiple people (not just Malakittens) say the phrase "I could see X as scum." This is a completely meaningless buzz-phrase, in my opinion. If I thought long enough I could imagineanyonebeing scum but that doesn't make the line of thought any more valid or worth pursuing.
This paragraph makes TTH my biggest town-read.
In post 456, TellTaleHeart wrote:(As an aside, you're probably confusing me and blind because we both have black and white avatars. I'll try to find a color one when I have time.)
Done.
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In post 463, TellTaleHeart wrote:You made it too high, acryon. It doesn't fit.
I know, I realized that afterward =(
Try this one, should be good:
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In post 471, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:
All of them?
Ok, I'll make a detailed post on them later. You're null/scum and I'm going to have to reanalyse your posts.
Speak English, there is no such word as "ok". Okay I say, kay? You are Oncorporeal. There was nothing stopping you from posting in the last hour.
Enlighten us dutchman?
Who are you talking to, because how do you know whether there was something stopping them from posting? That's fine if you want to post in this ridiculous way, as long as you make your content and direction clear.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 473, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:In post 472, acryon wrote:
Who are you talking to, because how do you know whether there was something stopping them from posting? That's fine if you want to post in this ridiculous way, as long as you make your content and direction clear.
Child, you test my patience and sanity. With my patience goes my stability. With my sanity goes my judgement.
Do you think me a madman? Lord sojourn our victory, for this man be an utter fool! A fool's fool!
Grace us with the highlights of the game fool.
You didn't answer the question. And it tends to be customary for a replacement to read through the thread, not be spoon-fed reads by the town, especially when we are only one day in.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 485, Wisdom wrote:Constantine do you really have to post like that? It's getting annoying fast.
Agreed. I was tired after about 1 post. It's enough to bring out the lurker in anyone.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 528, TellTaleHeart wrote:The yellow top hat was very lovely, acryon.
My new avatar should further distinguish me from blindmewithscience, though.
Just glad I got the opportunity to show off my work.
In post 501, FinnLaw wrote:In post 457, acryon wrote:In post 456, TellTaleHeart wrote:I don't care for a few things this post. The mason fishing argument is bunk and Malakittens has wgeurts as a townread anyway so I'm not sure where these hypothetical associative tells come into play or why it's worth mentioning. Also, I've notice that multiple people (not just Malakittens) say the phrase "I could see X as scum." This is a completely meaningless buzz-phrase, in my opinion. If I thought long enough I could imagineanyonebeing scum but that doesn't make the line of thought any more valid or worth pursuing.
This paragraph makes TTH my biggest town-read.
Why, care to elaborate?
This thought process and mindset from TTH are extremely town IMO. It wouldn't make any sense for scum to shoot down multiple arguments. It makes more sense to leave them going or just shoot down one to appear town. I think it is very unlikely for that paragraph and explanation specifically to come from scum.
In post 525, Malakittens wrote:I have zero problems with the language so I'm not really sure why people got all pissy other than him asking for reads before giving them himself I can see as a valid issue, but beyond that.. nothing..
It's primarily the second part, but the problem worsens due to the role-playing. He has time to role-play and decide special word-choice, but not to read through a relatively short thread? Now that he has read through, the majority of his posts are fluff, asking for reads, and addressing a non-existent wgeurts mason-claim.
In post 518, TellTaleHeart wrote:One thing that's kind of bizarre to me is how people are trying to tie together wgeurts and Mala. I think acryon and Wisdom mentioned this and someone else repeated it, if I'm recalling correctly. I think the accusations of "coaching" are just out-and-out wrong considering that Mala's characterization of wgeurt's "townflail" cameafterwgeurt's meltdown. It comes off to me as an angle to keep shoving the wgeurt's lynch and putting Mala on the defensive.
I do want to be very clear again that I thought it was something worth mentioning, but not at all likely.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 535, TellTaleHeart wrote:I'm looking at Victor's ISO trying to make myself happy with a townread, but posts like 296, 356, 365, and 370 make me think I went wrong somewhere and he's actually scum.
There are pieces of 296 that I don't love, but the others seem pretty neutral to me. Anything specific that's pinging you?Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 540, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:Children, let's...
Excommunicate: VictordeAngelo
Would you call me crazy if the lord told me that none of the current lynch targets are scum?
Is that supposed to be a vote?
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@TTH
Are you still happy with your Wisdom vote?Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 554, TellTaleHeart wrote:
Do you think Victor is scum protecting his buddy Wisdom?
In post 555, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:Hello, the lord bears news, VictorDeAngelo is scum. Why has he not been stigmatized yet?
For the love of all that is good, please make a post that contains some read/reference/information and not just base-less crap. Eloquently worded garbage is still garbage. Be a good townie,read the thread, and enlighten us on the conclusions when you get there.
In post 553, Newbie wrote:Actually, the only other person really suspecting Wisdom as that point was TTH. Also, my reasons for suspecting Wisdom were a bit different than TTH's, so...
What is your reasoning for suspecting Wisdom outside of disliking his interaction with wguerts?Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 557, TellTaleHeart wrote:
I am.
For someone who absolutely demands explanations from everyone else, getting Wisdom's opinions on the game as a whole is like getting blood from a stone. I understand that he's townreading MathDino, which is a very popular opinion anyway, and scumreading wgeurts but everyone else in the game remains at a blank. The recent interactions with Mala seem halfhearted at best. Even the push on wgeurts feels oddly lethargic.
What do you find redeeming in Wisdom's activity? I'd really like to know.
I wouldn't say I find parts of his activity redeeming; I just don't find the other pieces damning. The main reasons I see for the wagon on him are due to the way he was pushing the wgeurts lynch. Maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't see scum being at the head of a wagon like wgeurts'. To anyone that feels wgeurts is town, I would be far more suspicious of both Victor and Blindmewithscience. It is almost always the subtle pushing that is by scum, not the hard pushing that Wisdom is doing.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 559, Newbie wrote:In post 556, acryon wrote:
What is your reasoning for suspecting Wisdom outside of disliking his interaction with wguerts?
In post 237, Newbie wrote:Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as theobvioussuspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.
There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.
I also think it's possible that Wisdom could've been trying to inch by inch put suspicion on VD with posts 1, 2, and 3.
Of course, if wgeurts flips scum, all of this will most likely become null.
I am always nervous of reads like this that are so dependent on the alignment of a certain player, especially since we won't get it without one of them dying. I am just not at all in favor of a lynch that is based on the alignment of the most reads-polarizing player in this game.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 562, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:The lord says that if victor is scum, then mathdino is most likely his buddy. Jesus would know, he's ISO'd most of the player list.
@Acyron - I love you too, now how about you live up to my godly example, and stop sinning with rage?
I'm not mad. I am frustrated when the game is mucked up by people totally unwilling to give a rhyme or reason for any of their declarations.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 579, TellTaleHeart wrote:In post 560, acryon wrote:I wouldn't say I find parts of his activity redeeming; I just don't find the other pieces damning. The main reasons I see for the wagon on him are due to the way he was pushing the wgeurts lynch. Maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't see scum being at the head of a wagon like wgeurts'. To anyone that feels wgeurts is town, I would be far more suspicious of both Victor and Blindmewithscience. It is almost always the subtle pushing that is by scum, not the hard pushing that Wisdom is doing.
There's a disconnect here for me to where I don't understand why your reads are the way they are.
The assertion that scum willneverlead a wagon seems bananas to me. It's an absolute and it doesn't sound right, especially considering the wgeurts push itself.
I never said this. I saidI don't seescum leading a wagonlike wgeurts'. It just doesn't make any sense from a scum standpoint to be the one at the helm of a lynch like wgeurts, because then you just look terrible if he flips town. I would be shocked if scum didn't think that through. The only reason, I think, scum would ever be driving the wagon on someone like wgeurts is if he actually was scum. I certainly don't think scum willneverlead a wagon, but I don't think they would ever lead a wagon on someone like wgeurts, who is such an easy lynch-target. It would just end up looking too opportunistic.
In post 579, TellTaleHeart wrote:Take a quick look through Wisdom's ISO and tell me what kind of town goal he's working towards here. He's hammering on the same points on wgeurts and demanding explanations from everyone else all the while not actually engaging with anyone in any productive way.
Let me remind you that this is the same person who got mad at me after my first post for not "engaging" him.
If this "engage people" thing isreallyhis philosophy, I would expect to see a lot more of it and more importantly, I would expect to see products of this process in the form of more refined reads. Instead I see some mealy-mouth rhetoric with Malakittens and softballing of blindmewithscience. There's no commentary on how he thinks the game is going as a whole and the questions hedoesask lack impact. There's plenty of scum motivation for talking a lot without actually contributing to town progress, which is what I think Wisdom has been doing all game.
Constantine and acryon, can you sincerely defend your Wisdom townread?
The rest of this is a lot better than the first part you said. Looking through Wisdom's ISO, I tried to look at it as if he was scum. If he is scum, I think that definitely at least one of Mala and wgeurts is scum. If you think he is scum, I think he has to be bussing one of those two. Thoughts?
Considering a townread, I'm not townreading Wisdom. He is a null to me at this point. My thoughts on the alignment of Wisdom based on his interaction with wgeurts is based completely on wgeurts alignment at this point.
In post 592, Mathdino wrote:Ugh. I really want to vote Silver's slot again, but I really doubt there'll be a replacement for her anytime soon.
My vote is remaining on Silver, because her replacing out doesn't change the fact that I thought her play was scummy. She is still the scummiest person to me at this point in time, so I'm only going to change my vote to someone I think may be scummier. Although St Constantine is working pretty hard to change that with his mason-comments and general lack of real contribution.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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In post 604, TellTaleHeart wrote:
If you go back to the first few pages, you'll see that Mathdino and Victor vote each other very early on. Constantine's argument isn't that they're masons, it's that they're scum who are distancing from each other by voting each other.
Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.
569: Victor is scum with Mathdino, vote victor!
571: Actually, Mathdino and Silverwolf are scum!
And then unvotes Victor. Why was victor unvoted here and why did a vote for neither Mathdino or Silverwolf take its place?In post 571, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:Should we lynch thy Mathdino, or thy Silverwolf.
576: Now the vote comes for Mathdino, Mathdino is definitely scum! Reiterates in 577.
595: Now Mathdino is town because of his emotional response?
597: States connection between Mathdino, Silverwolf, and Victor. So is Dino town or is he on a scum-team with Victor and Silverwolf?
I strongly dislike when players have scum-reads that aresodependent on being a team, and I dislike it even more when players then back down on one of these because of something that is certainly not redeeming(an emotional response from Dino). This problem is made worse in the set-up we are playing in, as pointing out connections could be leading scum to the mason-team, which is terrible considering how important it is late-game for us to keep them safe.
So are the three of them scum, or are they not? Which one is the best lynch?Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 606, TellTaleHeart wrote:In post 605, acryon wrote:Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.
I'm not arguing in favor of Constantine's point. I'm saying that Wisdom's insipid remark was out-of-context and not really applicable to what he was quoting.
That's fair.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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While I personally don'ttotallysubscribe to the sentiment expressed by Wisdom, both Finnlaw and Mathdino both expressed their agreement. Do you think Finn and Math are scum following scum-Wisdom? Because, while I agree that Wisdom's representation of what Constantine was saying was a little misconstrued, there have been multiple other players that have echoed the sentiment, so I think it's a difficult argument to make that it was scummy from Wisdom.
Regarding the rest with Wisdom, I've already expressed my thoughts on it. I definitely can't say I am confident he is town, but I see more of his play coming from (probably) misguided town than from scum, especially the hard wgeurts wagon.
In post 610, Wisdom wrote:In post 609, TellTaleHeart wrote:You quoted his post and then complained about "making connections." The clear implication from this is that he shouldn't have made the connection because masons could give a false positive on this. That's not applicable because the specific "connections" Constantine was talking about was two scum voting each other to distance, something I'm assuming two masons wouldn't do.
While I didn't look at what exactly he was talking about, I don't doubt two masons would vote each other to muddy the waters. In any case, connections before any flip happens should not happen, especially in this setup. This was my main point.
Agree with the unbolded, strongly disagree with the bolded.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 616, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:I will be going on a pilgrimage. Apparently what you mafia players would call V/LA.
I'm not scum, I think that one of the three people I accused of being scum, is actually scum.
@Acyron - Being all over the place is a town tell, mate. It is quite common for town to make more accusations than scum, ie, a lot more opinions and new information to be taking in.
Don't tell me how something you are doing is a town-tell; you're not exactly an unbiased source. Even if you were, what you were doing definitely isnota town tell. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I would say it's a null, but in your case I'm not sure which way it is leaning. And it's not even about what you're doing being scummy; your flip-flopping and unclear ideas call into question your credibility, which is bad for town.
And you have now multiple times stated your thoughts that 2/3 of those players were inter-connected. And now you're sayingoneof them is scum? I can't be the only one that thinks you denying the idea that you aren't particularly trustworthy is disingenuous at best.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.-
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acryon Mafia Scum
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In post 619, TellTaleHeart wrote:In post 601, acryon wrote:The rest of this is a lot better than the first part you said. Looking through Wisdom's ISO, I tried to look at it as if he was scum. If he is scum, I think that definitely at least one of Mala and wgeurts is scum.If you think he is scum, I think he has to be bussing one of those two.Thoughts?
I'm sorry, what's the basis for this? I don't follow.
Looking at Wisdom's ISO with the idea that he is scum, his hard push on wguerts and soft-push on mala leads me to believe that given Wisdom-scum, one of wgeurts/mala is definitely scum.Get to know me! | Unavailable on nights and weekends.