Open 587 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[Herodotus]

Hi everyone. I've read through the game one time. Here are my full notes:

town
Morgan - genuine scumhunting
Cow - setup speculation and other metagame comments
Sup-Zero
archaebob - response to ABR, unless it's distancing. Archa - post 242 looks like you're lecturing town-teapot, but you voted him.

null
Albert - wagoning is useful, but he's been fairly empty. I believe what he says about coasting D1, and I know that he's confident enough in his abilities that he would coast. (I think people underestimate just how confident he is.) Would not be my lynch choice, but that would be much better than letting the deadline hit. (Checked the rules again. Apparently there is always a lynch even if no one reaches majority.)
Zymf->BBMolla
teapot?
vettrock - post 315 alone keeps him out of the scum list

scum
pisskop
theslimer3
texcat? Post 307 ignores theslimer3 doing the same thing. Of course, you can't lynch every lurker, but still.

In some cases, it's hard to say what is scummy and what is illogical or oversights.

ISO:
pisskop
theslimer3

Unvote Vote: theslimer3

They're play would be forgivable for a newbie, but they have thousands of posts.

[Herodotus]

theslimer3 has been active lurking hard. I was going to say they were prod dodging, but it looks like they failed to do that.

Mod, could you prod theslimer3 please?

[Herodotus]

You're trying to manipulate me with a fake display of emotion. You're trying to reach through the thread and make RL archaebob feel insecure - make him worried that he's going to lose the approval of RL Albert B. Rampage if he fucks this up.

To me, it looked more like blatant intimidation.

@Teapot: If you're going to play to your win condition, and you're town, shouldn't you tell who your main account is? Then we can read you better and know you're town. Hiding your meta only helps you if you're scum. Would you agree?

Can we wagon a lurker like ABR/Droog?
Where are the prods?

Why didn't you join the already existing wagon on Albert or start one on Droog in that post? When you waited, your vote was a little clouded. You called him not town, but was it partly just pressure?

@Morgan: What are your thoughts on 330? Are you still voting Teapot for what they claim was a typo? Because they gave a townread based on secret reasons? Or something else?

[Herodotus]

Albert, holding DGB up as an example of what normal people do is a sign of irrationality or desperation.

[Herodotus]

@Morgan: Right, you did make that case. I forgot about that because I was doing an ISO of teapot.
What's a Garcia violation? Regardless, let Teapot answer their own questions, please.
I think Albert himself is about average in terms of probability of being scum. I've played on a scumteam with him, but it was years ago and I don't remember his play. Like I said, he believes in himself completely. If he's town, he's almost 100% sure that if he's lynched, he'll kill scum, and if he's scum, he's 100% sure he will survive his antics. If you mean the people who are on the wagon, I think pisskop is the most likely of the ~4-5 to be scum. I'd be just as happy with a wagon on them as I am on theslimer3.

[Herodotus]

Albert, holding DGB up as an example of what normal people do is a sign of irrationality or desperation.

I have the same playstyle as her. We're friends.

I don't recall you being as extreme, and I feel like you take things more seriously.

I've played on a scumteam with him[Albert], but it was years ago and I don't remember his play.

The game I was referring to: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=12257

[Herodotus]

unvote

because that's not going to go anywhere;

vote: pisskop

Parked vote since page 1 with no argument.
Little to say besides weak commentary on Albert.

[Herodotus]

No worries. I still want Tea to answer.

Morgan, some of your case on Teapot is based on interactions that don't seem right, and my interpretation of the implication is that he might be buddies with Droog, who is now pisskop. You gave Droog some town credit for an early post, but how do you feel about pisskop at this time?

[Herodotus]

how do you feel about pisskop at this time?

Same question to Albert, Teapot, and anyone else who feels like answering.

[Herodotus]

@Sup-Zero, I get the impression that you're not committed to lynching either Albert or Teapot. But we have to lynch someone. If you'd like more options, why aren't you doing anything about it?

I agree with vettrock, the vengekill is supposed to compensate for a mistake (I think it's a little underestimated for reasons I can explain later.)
And that TheCow is a problem, though I don't have a scumread there.

[Herodotus]

As for not doing anything, score one for laziness.

copy and paste, then:

Code: Select all

[b]vote: archaebob[/b]

Or do something else.

[Herodotus]

Do you agree that your refusal can only help the scum, and can't help the town, within this game?

[Herodotus]

@theslimer3: Why are you voting Teapot?

I seriously don't care about anyone else.

See, that's the problem. You should care about everyone aside from yourself.

@ Teapot -

Who would you shoot?

I don't like this topic. I can see a townie being curious, maybe even thinking it would help figure out Teapot's alignment, but the answer is going to help the scum if teapot is town. If Teapot and Albert are both town, how happy do you think the scum are right now?

[Herodotus]

I read that. But do you think Teapot is scum, or are you only voting to keep Albert alive?

[Herodotus]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Albert Rampage

I'd put Albert at 29% to be scum, Teapot at 27%, to be clear. Mostly, I feel that Albert could be playing better if he wanted to. They've each done anti-town things.
I hate to reward Teapot for tunneling, but I don't want him to have the vengekill. We can lynch him tomorrow if further analysis justifies it. I feel like Albert is more likely to shoot scum.

Let's not wait until deadline.
I'm willing to switch to Teapot to prevent the scum from daykilling right before the deadline and screwing with the voting.

[Herodotus]

As you weren't voting me before, archaebob, I assume you find it suspicious that I voted Albert even when I don't think he's especially scummy? If so, did you miss my earlier attempts at creating counter-wagons?

[Herodotus]

Hero, why do you care if Teapot will have the vengekill? He said he would kill ABR. He said he doesn't care about anyone else. You scolded him for saying so. Now you're voting for ABR. He's gonna be dead in the ground, like a bitch. So what was the problem with Teapot having the vengekill?

You don't want to wait until deadline for the hammer. Why? Because you think scum is gonna daykill to screw with the voting? They couldn't possibly tip anything except making it go from Albert to Teapot. If that, even. And why would it matter? You put the difference between your read of them at %2. You clearly don't think either of them are that scummy. So what are you so worried about?

I think there's too much of a chance they're both town. If we lynch Albert, he might kill someone other than Teapot, which gives us a better shot of dead scum than if we lynch Teapot and he kills Albert.
Do you object to Albert being dead and Teapot not being dead?

As for deadline, what would happen if the scum used their kill 1 hour before deadline? At best, half of the players would be online during that hour, and potentially far less. If the scum coordinated, they could basically choose the lynch. I suppose that if both Albert and Teapot are town, it won't come up. So maybe I'm overly concerned, but I feel uncomfortable leaving the issue open. And hitting deadlines is overall bad policy for towns, mechanics aside.

[Herodotus]

If it is one hour before the deadline, there is a good chance who ever is getting lynched, won't have the solid majority, or the lynch would have happened already. At that point, it is just a matter of who is on. I guess the scum could coordinate to all be on, but if they did that, I think it would look pretty suspicious and they would basically out themselves. More likely, only one or two people will be on, and whomever they vote will get lynched.

That's the problem - how do you tell the difference between "oh, these two people happened to be on and vote" and "these two scum coordinated the lynch"?

We can prevent this from happening by not waiting until 1 hour before the deadline.

Right. That's what I'm trying to do. I'd rather 24 hours.

[Herodotus]

Now, talking strategy, I would be worried if the Mafia decide to kill day one, and even more worried if they do not use their kills at all. I'll leave it vaguely for now, and hope you all understand the implications here.

As it's relevant, this was what gave me a bit of a town read on thecow. I don't know what they were implying, and I'm skeptical that it meant what they thought it meant, but I felt like they had a real idea in mind so I saw it as a towntell.

I also don't have any objection to their vote on Teapot, as they expressed discomfort toward them before there was a wagon or any pressure. And the comments on Albert are reasonable, at least. Other than that, all I see is low content. That would be enough for me to join in wagoning if it weren't for the very early towntell.

[Herodotus]

I was hoping we'd lynch before that happened.

I don't think either Albert or Teapot is the scum daykiller, or they would have used the kill earlier. There has been some risk of either being lynched for a while, and it could possibly have happened before the scum could react. If Albert or Teapot was the killer, and they hadn't used their kill, they would have lost the option to ever use it. Because they didn't use it before it could be lost, I believe both Albert and Teapot are either goons or townies.

I intended to encourage the lynchee to break out of their tunneling and aim for the daykiller, because even if Albert/Teapot thought the other was a goon, it would be better to aim for the killer while demanding that we lynch that goon the next day.

All of the above still applies; I think the person we lynch shouldn't kill either Teapot or Albert, but there is no more reason to be secretive about this strategy.

[Herodotus]

Quick. Check 'last visited' dates on profiles

its not guarentteed, but . . . Texcat last visited 0020.

I don't understand how the "last visited" works - whether it shows last time loading a page or what time zone it's based on, but I'm seeing last visted times for you, Teapot, and myself that are earlier than our most recent posts. I don't think it's reliable.

[Herodotus]

But the fact that texcat hasn't posted would count against her a little. And I see nothing in her ISO that says town.

VOTE: texcat

I'll be around in case this doesn't go anywhere, or she posts something good.

[Herodotus]

Your posting implied you hadn't been on for over a day, while the site implied you were on just minutes before the kill. Even if it's unreliable, it's not 28 hours worth of unreliable, as your own statement agrees.

I don't like to use out-of-game factors, and wouldn't have voted you if I previously thought you were town. I hoped you would have more to say about the game.

Preview edit: see you posted again, gtg, feel free to post more if you have more to say

[Herodotus]

I don't think the kill was likely based on either wagon derailment or derailment WIFOM, I think it was more based on archae looking townie to so many people.

Looking back, Sup-Zero, you have me a little paranoid about buddying.

[Herodotus]

Two things - the vote for Astinus because they would be a good player to pay attention to, without follow up.

Also, your response to the votes on me. That one isn't so bad, it just seemed odd.

[Herodotus]

@Sup: My concern is that you didn't say much to them or pressure them while they were around. So I don't understand the vote or how you were paying attention to Astinus.

I'll sheep vettrock.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Albert

Preview edit: threadsplosion and votes.

My vote is L-1

, including a self-vote.


I like the new ISO feature, but I keep clicking on posts to see them in context, then clicking on new ISO's, then new posts from those new ISO's. It's like that website that it's poor etiquette to link to. Trying to read Albert in ISO this happens even more because he tends not to quote or name the person he's talking to.

[Herodotus]

Oops. I thought we started with 13. I think you missed that pisskop unvoted; I'm the one who hammered.

[Herodotus]

I didn't think you self-hammered, I thought you put yourself at L-2.

[Herodotus]

Adjustments based on direct vettrock ISO:

I think Morgan is more townie than ever. 158
Teapot also looks good. 184

Food for thought: would Mafia vote on a day one lynch, when they run the risk of being killed by the D1 Vengeance?

And I mean like

really

I saw that the first time, and meant to comment, but I forgot about it. This looks like newbscum trying to get a hint from town as to how they should vote to avoid suspicion. Probably would have been better asked in the scum PT instead.

Significant to reading TheCow, but I'm not sure if it was a slip (i.e. telling thecow they should have posted in their PT) or slinging mud ("looks like newbscum").

+ a small amount of scumpoints to texcat for an indirect defense. 507

+ a small amount of townpoints to cow, slimer, teapot. 518

[Herodotus]

In case it wasn't clear, I didn't realize Albert thought he had self-hammered. He had been talking about venge killing for days, I thought he was just threatening Sup.

[Herodotus]

In 158, I don't feel like that's how one responds to a scum-buddy, so you get town credit.

Vettrock 184 is a very OMGUSy response to Teapot, which makes me like Teapot.

Vettrock 507 took some wind out of the counterwagon on texcat while trying to stay neutral on her alignment.

Vet 518 tried to direct the vig. He could have included a buddy, so it's only a small amount of townpoints.

VOTE: texcat

[Herodotus]

@Teapot, I thought he put himself at L-2.

@Teapot, do you understand now why tunneling is bad?

All of the above still applies; I think the person we lynch shouldn't kill either Teapot or Albert, but there is no more reason to be secretive about this strategy.

I'll sheep vettrock.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Albert

Going through your posts, I don't see what made you change your mind here. Is it the fact that Albert decided he wasn't going to kill you or...?

There is no contradiction. Before archaebob was killed, I was voting for Albert because I thought if he was town he might shoot someone other than Teapot, and if he was scum, hooray. He did shoot someone other than Teapot.

[Herodotus]

@theslimer3, I may have misunderstood your question. When I thought I was putting Albert at L-2, vettrock was starting to give me town-feelings, so after their vote I went back and read Albert in ISO. Nothing popped out but he seemed acceptable for a combination of: the possibility that he was scum, the information it might provide, and the above-average vengekill possibility. After I saw there was another vote on him, I almost deleted the vote from my post, but I counted the votes very carefully, and there were only five. When I saw that Albert had self-voted again, I decided I was sick of the WIFOM, so I put the vote back into my post with the warning about L-1. Only I thought it was going to take 7 votes to lynch, but it only took 6.

[Herodotus]

I checked everyone on pages 1, 2, 3.

You may have missed Morgan. BBMolla was also logged in during that time but didn't have a post on page 1-3 for you to follow because replacement.
Slimer3, Albert, and vettrock I remember were all set to not reveal. I don't remember about theCow.

[Herodotus]

Teapot, how much have you thought about your vote? Have you reasoned out the idea of my being scum, or are you policy voting because I said Albert was at L-1 when that was not true?

[Herodotus]

Are people just waiting for others to post?

BBMolla, do you keep a Mafiascum tab open 24/7 like texcat says she does?

Morgan, which of my comments on Vett's ISO do you agree with? Which do you disagree with?

[Herodotus]

Vettrock 184 is a very OMGUSy response to Teapot, which makes me like Teapot.

How was it OMGUSy? vettrock complained and tried to shift attention back to ABR.

Right, with the lack of names, I assumed that when vettrock said "he", he was talking about Teapot. But "he" must have meant Albert, who we already know was town. So that probably doesn't say anything about Teapot.

Stop using log in times to determine in-game behavior.

On the one hand I agree that it feels a little unfair and somewhat unreliable to look at log in times. But the one rule that is bolded tells me to play to my win condition, and gaining information is critical to that goal, even if the information isn't perfect. And it's not cheating; this is public information, not much different from the times when someone says "(Player) has posted in other games but is lurking here." There's a discussion to be had about this, but it belongs in Mafia Discussion after this game is over.
No one's vote should be based solely on someone having been logged in during that time, if only because there were multiple people whose times were between the previous vote count and the kill and multiple people whose times were hidden. Also, I've made mistakes based on things like that before. But as long as the Mod doesn't say it's not allowed, it's fair to mention it, and because of the way vettrock reacted, I think it may help in the long term.

Another question for townies:

What do you think of scum!Sup-Zero?

I think the most relevant considerations for Sup-Zero's alignment would be his end of day discussion with Albert, which I apologize for cutting short. There's also what Albert said:

It looks like you voted for archaebob, realized he looked too townie, and then hammered him to get rid of a loose end and frame me with the same stone. Your reads and suspicions are all wrong. Your interactions with texcat and vet look like you're buddies.

I want to look into that at some point, but I won't be assuming it's correct solely on the basis that it came from Albert.

Sup, when you said that Astinus would be a good person to look at, can you explain in what way you looked at them? A random-looking vote doesn't mean a lot.

[Herodotus]

And yes, they eventually replaced out, but not until later, ie. after you moved your vote.

[Herodotus]

@Sup: It's not a theory. I thought you were very town until your response to the votes on me. After that, I thought you were town but kept that in mind. When Albert mentioned shooting you, I figured there might be reasons to suspect you and I read you in ISO. When I noticed your actions toward Astinus I felt uncomfortable so I'm asking you about them. I had a theory that would explain it and that wouldn't implicate you, but I wanted to hear it from you.

[Herodotus]

I also haven't reread you since day 2 started except for the end of day 1.

[Herodotus]

@Sup: It's not a theory. I thought you were very town until your response to the votes on me. After that, I thought you were town but kept that in mind. When Albert mentioned shooting you, I figured there might be reasons to suspect you and I read you in ISO. When I noticed your actions toward Astinus I felt uncomfortable so I'm asking you about them. I had a theory that would explain it and that wouldn't implicate you, but I wanted to hear it from you.

Which is why it only came up when ABR threatened to shoot me. Sure.

Yes, it's exactly why I only mentioned it then. I never felt like it was worth doubting your towniness until Albert requested that the rest of us critically examine you. Would you expect otherwise?

My current theory is that the strangeness of that can be attributed in some way to your being a hydra. As I said, though, I was hoping you would provide an explanation because I don't like to spoon-feed it to you.

[Herodotus]

Mod: a prod for Teapot please.

Reading day 1...

[Herodotus]

So uh, vettrocks not scum. I'm not allowed to say why due to site rules, I'll say no more.

Teapot, can you say any more about this? Since your conclusion was false, something is up here.

If you can't say gimme a guesstimate on how long you've been playing here

This, or Teapot, have we played together before? I'm guessing no because I don't recognize your posting style.

I feel that Sup-Zero is acting on an emotional basis, rather than because they are looking for a mislynch. I don't get a scummy vibe right now.

@BBMolla: Avoiding a wagon on the basis of my reads is a terrible excuse. Are you now in favor of lynching Sup-zero?
Also, you had Cow and Morgan as Albert buddies yesterday. Does town-Albert -> town-Cow or town-Morgan to you?

Some day 1 notes:

Texcat looks a little not-Vett-buddy for voting Vettrock: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6569632
Zymf(BBM) looks slightly not-scum for the

phrasing

of the response to Teapot: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6571618
Very confident that texcat and Teapot aren't buddies: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6576675
Teapot looks not-Vett-buddy for switching from Albert to Vett: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6586138
Morgan doesn't get as much credit because they quickly wanted to switch to Teapot.

This post from theslimer3 ignores all three of the major pushes (vett, albert, teapot): http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6587440

Did you roll jester?

Scum tend to speculate on jesters more often than town because they know the person they're accusing isn't scum, so being scum doesn't explain the behaviour. That post looks very scummy. Wants no responsibility for voting Teapot:

You sure seem testy when it comes to a lynch. Not sure if it's scum motivated since they know that there's a vig kill lingering over their heads.

VOTE: Teapot
Because I can say that I think the ABR gambit is probably not scum. I'm going to safely drink the wine placed in front of me

unvote; vote: theslimer3

Post 192 also looks bad from slimer now that vett has flipped scum.

[Herodotus]

Are you now in favor of lynching Sup-zero?

Not really. Why do you think he's scum

[Herodotus]

Texcat reads in Posts 165, 190, 288, and then his backflip in 523; despite texcat having done nothing to improve anything ever.

Could you describe how it's a backflip? I see some wavering, but their backing off of texcat is apparently based on texcat's explanation in post 170.

[Herodotus]

Townreading BB

, Hero, Morgan, Teapotslot

I don't understand the reason for the bolded.
Also, if you still think Sup is scum despite your discussion, why did you unvote?

It's remarkable how similar my reads and BBMolla's reads are despite how they differ from the reads of several others.

@theslimer3: You said your questions have been ignored, but do you have any questions right now?
And a question for you: do you think that anyone voting you is intentionally trying to mislynch?

I have no idea what the case on Sup-Z is. Does anyone wish to state it? After dissecting what pisskop posted in 615, I feel like nothing has been posted that is holding up to scrutiny.

[Herodotus]

@Mod: requesting prods as needed. theslimer3 and thecow, I think.

[Herodotus]

Theslimer3 ignores all three of the major pushes (vett, albert, teapot): http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6587440

I wasn't on any of the wagons. What's that suppose to mean? Just because I'm not mainstream means that I'm scum for some reason?

It's not that you weren't on the wagons. My issue is that you didn't state an opinion on any of vett, albert, or teapot.

What?
Your logic fails to make any sense to me and is vaguely explained as if you want to continue this wagon on.

I don't understand your question. But I don't feel comfortable with your decision to vote for Teapot when your only mention of him is that he's testy and you're not sure his testiness is scum motivated.

@theslimer3: You said your questions have been ignored, but do you have any questions right now?
And a question for you: do you think that anyone voting you is intentionally trying to mislynch?

Well it'd probably be nice if you went back and answered something I've asked you. They still carry relevancy in investigation.

Searching for my name in your ISO, I see one question you have asked me before your last post, and I've already answered it. Who has been ignoring your questions, and why aren't you voting them?

[Herodotus]

Astinus was my predecessor.

[Herodotus]

Too tryhard, bro. It'll only send you to the gallows after me.

Why is this your response, after calling Teapot town? It looks more like something you might say if you think Green is scum.

I was also looking for the reason that you were townreading BBMolla.


Green Crayons, you mentioned that post 215 excluded droog. (On a related note, I've been imagining that vettrock would likely include one buddy in the "Cow or Zymf or theslimer3" lurkerscum group.) When I read that before vett flipped, I assumed droog was excluded because of the v/la. While there may have been an alignment-based reason for the omission, there is also a non-alignment based explanation.

I have some other thoughts about the case, but I will wait to see whether pisskop will respond more thoroughly.

[Herodotus]

Look at him. He is hunting. He doesnt seem to care overly about being nice. When I asked about the odds of a vengekill improving Town chances, most scum would have made a mark, ignored, or chided; BB answered frankly. Scum would likely not have

Those would be very strong towntells coming from a newbie, but BBMolla is not a newbie. Experienced scum are just as aggressive as town. I believe BBMolla is an assertive mafia player in general.
I can see the point about answering your question to a very, very limited degree.

I'd be very very surprised if both hero and slimer were town

I also agree with this.

When BBMolla said it, I figured it was just because BB was claiming suspicion of each of us, but coming from you/your playerslot, I'm mystified. I hope you're right, but I don't see why that would be true.

Green Crayons, you don't mind that pisskop is voting slimer?

[Herodotus]

About the case on pisskop:
First point, setup talk - I agree with pisskop that it's null, but not that's it's a towntell.
Second point, meta - not familiar with their meta.
Third point, interaction -
A and B don't sell me; "this guy is scummy but I won't vote him" is the opposite of what I would expect from buddies.
C doesn't work because droog never posted in the game after vettrock's comment, other than to say "v/la" and "replacing out".
Part D of the interactions: After seeing Green Crayons post 686 I agree that it's suspicious that vettrock had previously prepared suspicion of droog but left lurker-droog off the lurker list.
Fourth point, voting - There are some good points here. Looking up pisskop's response... and it's the one part they didn't respond to. Figures.

Not moving my vote atm. I don't think the case is conclusive but it will be something to think about.

I have questions for you if slimer flips town, though. QUESTIONS.

I have some answers for you. They are probably not the answers you're expecting. And my answers will be WIFOMy. But I'll try to give you some answers that fit your questions in addition.

Also, lolwhat.

I believe that word means baffled, confused, surprised.

[Herodotus]

I agree that Pisskop's voting record has a lot to be desired, but I don't think it's actually as bad as Teapot's.

I only see one vote from Teapot that I would question, and I think it was laziness. I don't see how you would decide that Teapot's voting - which included vettrock - is worse than pisskop's.

[Herodotus]

I'm not sure Sup is the best vengekill, although I'm not sure who is better. I'm leaning towards that not mattering since scum don't get a vengekill, but as this is D1, the probability of being wrong is still pretty high. Going with the lurkers: TheCow or slimer is one option. Teapot would give us some information as the other major wagon. It will be easier to determine when we actually see you flip, as us debating who the vengekill would be is potentially influencing scum voting (or even town that doesn't want to get killed even if they are scum reading ABR).

Looking back at vettrock's suggested targets for the venge kill makes theslimer a bit less suspicious. My first intuition says scum would generally tend to want to mention the names of townies, whether recommending against shooting them (sup-zero) or suggesting them (cow, slimer, teapot).

The comment about killing Teapot giving information -- if Teapot was scum, then that information would be positive for Morgan, texcat, thecow, and theslimer3 for their votes, and probably for vettrock for Teapot's vote. It would also be negative for the people who voted Albert - pisskop, vettrock, BBMolla, me. If Teapot was town, the information would only be that the main wagons toward the end of the day were town-town, and it would eliminate the person saying that vettrock was town for out of game reasons. Losing a buddy doesn't seem worth it to reveal a bus early that could have been revealed later, but Teapot wasn't a beneficial mis-vig for vettrock either. I think vettrock just included Teapot because he thought the suggestion would sound pro-town. Overall, this is a positive for Green Crayons.

I don't want to rely too much on this post because it could have included distancing, but it's enough for me to UNVOTE: theslimer3.

[Herodotus]

If by rule of 3, you mean that scum mention one buddy when they mention 3 players, I feel like that would apply to lists of suspicious people but maybe not as much when suggesting a vig shot. Not sure.

I would be very surprised if there were two scum - both of his buddies - on that list.

That has to be the scummiest wall I've ever seen. I've seen some scummy walls, but that one takes the cake.

We can lynch texcat after vettrock.

I'm not quite understanding what gives Texcat priority over Vettrock. He hasn't really done anything TOO scummy in my opinion. Enlighten me. Also what makes this wall scummy? Sorry if you've answered this already, I just didn't see it.

Slimer, if you come back, could you help parse what you said here? First, to me it seems that Sup-zero was giving vettrock priority over texcat. Second, which person hadn't done anything too scummy? I used to think I understood what you meant but now I'm not sure.

Also, I want to know what you think of Green Crayons. That's the only playerslot you've voted for.

[Herodotus]

1. Can you really say that's scummy at all? I don't normally say my opinion on anything for that matter. Just because I don't say something doesn't mean I have some ulterior motive of throwing the discussion off or trying to veer off it, so this speculation just seems pointless to me.
2. The deadline was coming up and I had already stated that I wouldn't want ABR lynched (which I was right about his non-gamble btw). Why on earth would I just vote on someone new when I wanted to keep ABR alive, which I've acknowledged as probably town.
3. Well I guess I didn't look hard enough for them to not see them, and unlike you all I don't vote someone for not answering a question (or being there to answer that question for that matter). In fact I'm pretty sparce with my votes if you haven't noticed.

1. I can say that scum have a

motive

to avoid talking about anyone. Notice how we're discussing what vettrock said about people.
2. For one thing, if Teapot was town and lynched, Albert would be dead now regardless. For another, the town can't get anywhere without voting and/or making cases against people who might be scum.
3. If you're scum, that might help your side. If you're town, it means there is less pressure on people and less information, and if you were to stay not voting, the scum would have more control over the lynch.

Also still @Slimer, did you miss my questions? I saw your answer about Sup, but didn't see anything about Tea, nka GreenCrayons.

Neut on Tea, except that DayVig. It's possible that he was the one behind that, but there's no proof for that.
I don't like GC though. He voted for Pissop for pretty much a feeling and something that seems off. He also voted me because... Well I'm inactive. And dressed it up to make it seem like it's just a scummy motive behind it. Also It's been noted before that I'm scummy because I'm inactive. Quite possibly a piggyback.

Help me understand why Teapot was more likely to make that daykill than anyone else.

[Herodotus]

if Slimer flips scum, Texcat is almost certainly town

Agreed.

#555 implies that ABR's shot is something to be feared and a voter changed because they did not fear ABR's shot anymore. This implies town ABR. Someone who thought ABR was scum wouldn't fear a vengeshot on day 1.

I don't follow what you're saying this this paragraph. But it seems relevant that slimer stated a town read on Albert.

Texcat login is a null tell. The vig shot depends just as much on mod availability as submissions.

There was a votecount just a few hours before, so I don't think the delay between the request and the execution was very long. Though there are a lot of players whose online status was hidden, or who were logged in around that time, or who posted in the thread and therefore were logged in.

Titus's first few posts look slightly townish overall.

The problem here is that Teapot was pushing the ABR lynch, and then only momentarily switched over to Vettrock without a good explanation for the switch, and then switched back to ABR. It just looked too much like scum voting for the town cred, but switching back when it really mattered.

Context matters. Teapot was not quick to jump off of vettrock. They were on vett for two days and were I think the last player off the vettrock wagon.
Why aren't you making the same accusation toward Morgan or Sup-zero?

I mean, I can't vote slimer any harder

[Herodotus]

@texcat: But all those unvotes meant that Teapot was the only person voting vett. And being v/la doesn't negate the time with the vote on; vett could have been lynched during that time.

But he seems more interested in lynching anyone.

True. I don't know what to think of that.

[Herodotus]

@Mod: I'm having internet connectivity issues but I will not flake out.

I don't understand why we're making these lists, and because of internet issues I haven't been able to reread after the slimer flip but for now I will go with:

texcat
BBMolla
Sup-Zero?

I'm going to try to reread and reform my list in the next hour.

[Herodotus]

Remove Sup-Zero... add Morgan... still reading.

[Herodotus]

Vettrock and slimer3 both say "I'm scum with Morgan".
Morgan replies "no everyone I'm town, seriously".

Morgan
BBMolla
texcat

[Herodotus]

It appears we are waiting for Morgan before we discuss many things?

[Herodotus]

are morgan and bb independent of scumflips or is there an associative i've missed?

I don't feel like there's much point in waiting for Morgan to post their list before I answer. I listed Morgan mostly based on reading vettrock and slimer's posts. There were two issues I had with morgan's posts:

First, after voting vettrock, morgan quickly asked "why aren't we lynching Teapot?" Granted, Teapot made a strange post between those two events which could reasonably have been interpreted as scummy, but it does give me an impression of a lack of interest in the vettrock wagon going farther while wanting to be on it.

Second, the decline in activity both on day 2, and again now. This could easily be explained by out-of-game factors, but it could also be mafia giving up as partners disappear.

But it's more about the impression I developed while reading vettrock and slimer's posting after they flipped.

[Herodotus]

That has to be the scummiest wall I've ever seen. I've seen some scummy walls, but that one takes the cake.

We can lynch texcat after vettrock.

I'm not quite understanding what gives Texcat priority over Vettrock. He hasn't really done anything TOO scummy in my opinion. Enlighten me. Also what makes this wall scummy? Sorry if you've answered this already, I just didn't see it.

I think theslimer3 deserves an award for this paragraph of post 189. Because it's so frustratingly hard to understand whether it clears texcat or incriminates her.

[Herodotus]

@Morgan, why did you change your mind about Sup-Zero? Yesterday you wanted to lynch them.

[Herodotus]

Morgan
BBMolla
texcat

Texcat, Hero, Titus, Supzero

1) Texcat
2) Hero
3) Titus maybe?

GC, Sup, and a very distant third place tie between BB and Hero.

^{following tex and Titus.}

1) Green Crayons
2) bbmolla
3) supZero

Titus
Herodotus
pisskop

There's no particular order, and since I'm last I suppose it doesn't even matter.

1) Texcat
2) Titus
3) Sup

I wanted to combine these for easier reference. It's not in any order.

[Herodotus]

Some interesting points on Morgan, Hero. He made the original case on Teapot and I've been thinking of him as town, but it may be time to rethink. I didn't really like the way that he just jumped on the Slimer wagon without even seeming to consider GC. The Slimer lynch looked inevitable, so he could have been bussing for a little cred.

IIRC, the only person who didn't vote slimer yesterday was Sup-Zero, which was mostly why I tentatively included them at first.

What changed that was this interaction with theslimer3:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6587911

To summarize:
Sup-Zero was voting vettrock. Then Sup-Zero pointed out a "scummy wall" from texcat.
Then post 189 happened... among other things, slimer asked what made the wall scummy.
Sup-Zero explained why they found texcat's post scummy.
theslimer3's response to that is what makes me confident about Sup being town:

So by that logic you're going to sheep someone else in their vaguely put scum reads and set aside your own, more thought out ones, because.... LOGIC!

Then Sup says that the case on vettrock is good and asks slimer whether they read it.

I feel like this makes Sup look fairly clean. It may also vindicate texcat but that's more complicated. I'd like BBMolla, texcat, Green Crayons, and Titus, who named Sup-Zero, to comment on that.

I suppose people are going to be resistant to talking about town-reads, but I don't think that will be a factor for reasons that I don't want to talk about. One of my goals is to find a group of people we can all agree are town. If we can gather enough, then it might take a while, but we can win by lynching everyone else.

I would also like at least one other person to investigate the possibility of Morgan being teamed with slimer and vettrock.

[Herodotus]

One more thing:
I don't understand how theslimer3 being scum clears pisskop. His mentions of theslimer are limited, and vettrock and theslimer hardly mentioned his playerslot at all, other than vettrock 86 which was a silly, throwaway accusation that didn't include a vote.

[Herodotus]

Why would pisskop-scum switch his vote to slimer-scum when pisskop did, and then stick to it? I don't see it.

I don't have pisskop in my top three, but I'm not ready to rule him out. While he did choose slimer over the wagon on thecow, and kept his vote there, I didn't feel like he was doing much to create momentum. Also, I think that none of the case you posted was based on slimer's alignment. Parts of that case were bad, but some of it was worth considering.

The next person I'm convinced is town is Green Crayons. First was the fact that even while teapot was run up, they didn't use their kill. Second, slimer's day 1 vote when the wagons were tied at 4, although the scum may already have been planning for their daykill to reset the votecount. Third, vettrock's list of 3 people to venge included both slimer and teapot. Finally, I feel that Green Crayons did push the slimer wagon and wanted slimer lynched.

[Herodotus]

We need four town for his plan to work.

3

[Herodotus]

texcat, that kill was well used. I probably would have hammered you but didn't feel the need to rush.

I think the kill being based on a single role is designed to create a distinction between the mafia roles. It makes one more valuable and so it gives the mafia a preference for which buddies they might bus and it gives town more information whenever any mafia member is lynched. But it also makes the game swingier. I think if that were changed to a factional kill, something else might be added to interrupt the uniformity between all players. The obvious role, a kill-immune GF, is useless because they would be quicklynched the day after they failed to die. A named townie would make some sense because the mafia would have the obvious tool to deal with them. If that made the game too town-sided, then the mafia could be allowed a venge kill on day 1 if lynched.

Alternatively, how does this look:
2 mafia goons
1 vengeful mafia (has one kill that works whenever they die)
+ 1 factional kill

Instead of trying to keep their vig alive, they want to keep either goon alive.

[Herodotus]

Day 1 I already had 2/3 of the scum team.

In my first post I had 2/3 of the scum team. I like replacing in.


A mafia quicktopic might be the best way to avoid timing problems. Sometimes you can't wait to fire.

[Herodotus]

Thanks. Sorry for being careless when voting you.