Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!

[Aneninen]

/confirm

[Aneninen]

BBT made such a silly joke in another game before and he was town.

KMD, was that "super secret scumread" a joke too?

AlwaysInnocent, you drew a conclusion just as quickly as TexCat.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage – an illogical vote for an illogical person. ^_^

[Aneninen]

VOTE: Acryon
Serious vote. Jumped on the BBT wagon when it was gaining steam, then when people stopped talking about him and started voting ABR he joins in to do the same.

Acryon was a Day1 mislynch magnet in another game. FYI. BUT... in that game he wasn't a wagon-hopper.

AlwaysInnocent, you drew a conclusion just as quickly as TexCat.

No, no. I never conclude anything. I only assume things.

I don't think TexCat's assumption was worse than yours.

Shaddowez... Similar to shadows, which is a darkness caused by light, darkness is often associated with evil, and mafia are usually evil...

Half life 3 confirmed
Illuminati confirmed
9/11 was an inside job confirmed

Shaddowez is mafia confirmed.

VOTE: Shaddowez
Forgot the vote part of that RVS post...

Shadowez.
Is this a kind of inside joke?

I don't think it really meant that much, but who knows. It seems so... unnecessary.[/quote]
Just like this comment. It gave a certain vibe... as if you'd been defending him preemptively.

VOTE: Lucky2u
RVS vote? Liar!

At this point I checked three games of his randomly. He moved his vote much less frequently.

Third on the wagon = scum

vote:Lowell

That tell had been said to be outdated when we were discussing whether the Roman Empire would fall in 10 years.

Guess I'll reveal. Alwaysinnocent was my other scum read. Hard to explain, but he gives off a basic "fitting in" feel rather than a "looking for scum" one. I know it's early but that's when we all have Role PMs freshest in our mind.

See my comment above! (Self-edit: and below too!)

BBT

- Talk to me about your Anen/Yos reads.

ABR

- Why do you think your "wagon" is all town?

Kop

- Where are you?

Lowell

- So you think I'm scum for placing a serious vote, and actually moving us out of RVS? Interesting.

Why did you ask those particular things?

Lol. Yeah, well, you can't do much scumhunting yet in this stage. I have a few town-leans: shaddowz and Lowell, but you can't seriously expect to really be able to hunt scum now.
My scumhunting game will gradually pick up as the game progresses and more information becomes available. You will see.

Whut?
You'd moved your vote three times by this post, yet you were talking about your town-leans and the fact that it was (is) hard to scumhunt so early but you'd do more later.
This doesn't add up.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: AlwaysInnocent

unvote, vote: kmd

Where did this come from?

Yosarian, 79 – where did that list come from?

In general, at this point in the game, i tend to townread people who are active and doing intresting things.
None of those are especally strong reads, but they all look like they're actually scumhunting in their own way.

The amount of effort =/= alignment tell.

[Aneninen]

K dis time I try to post in the correct thread

[Aneninen]

VOTE: Texcat
I am here.

Was that RVS?

I like you Anen. Regarding me being a wagon-hopper, I tend to switch up my style based on what the town seems to need, especially D1. Take that with a grain of salt of course.

Ya I believe that you your playstyle every now and then upswitch but still you needn't like me. I could be anyone and this early you can't be sure about anything. Are you just for gaining allies?

I am using information that I have gotten from reading your ISO, and what I gather from this information, you are trying to look actively scum hunting, when most of it is just filled with random votes, and trying to look busy.

Aha, na ja, das ist ein you've got a point, Kop.

t was obvious that I was poking a bit of fun. I am partly doing this to see how other people react. I think I am allowed to do this this early in the game. It is part of the transition from RVS to scumhunting.

It didn't sound as if it a kind of fun was.
Reaction testing, eh? Aloowed, eh? Aren't you a bit too survivalistique? Also, why need you decide when we from RVS to scumhunting turn must?

Who me? We are not allowed to discuss those games yet, since none of them have finished yet. But I will tell you this: I am trying different strategies. It also depends on the context.

But for that depends on the context part, that was something which sounded so off as a hydrastic replica in the circle of all those fairies whom I've been dancing for ages, you know.

[Aneninen]

Hint: townreads =/= scumreads.

Wat?

I wouldn't call it real scumhunting in this stage. Of course you are trying to maximize the probability that you lynch scum, but unless scum seriously screw up, they won't give themselves away so easily so early.

Not a method of scumhunting, I suppose you simply tried to say something without saying anything.

Interesting to see that you enter the game so aggressively.

That as agressive?
Heb je nooit met TSO eg. met?

It wasn't purely an accusation, it was a statement that any information can be used, whether it be a random vote to engaging in questions. It's not a case of waiting till later when his scum hunting may improve as more information comes available. It's an obvious fact that more information will be available later which will obviously help scum hunting, but right now, we are scum hunting regardless of how much information, is available.

Yes, day one, ends up on a town lynch, majority of the time, there is the odd few occasions where we actually lynch scum, I agree, but I'd like to think we're scum hunting.

Yeah, I suppose that must be true but since I'm besoffen and I need to get my glasses repaired I'm simply unable diesen zu lesen, okay? Remind me tomorrow, I mean the realtime not the gametime, thanks

[Aneninen]

Talking about scumhunting, Kop. You didn't even seem to be doing anything until I voted for you, calling you to come out and play. It didn't take you long to respond, though. Were you lurking?

Telling that he'd been lurking right after he posted a lot that's simply pigeon poop. Tomorrow you'll get one from me.
By the way, there's a place in Amsterdam called Duifjessteeg, which means "pigeons' road" and it's slimmer dan 2 metres or so. Have you seen dat?

ote part of that RVS post...

Shadowez.
Is this a kind of inside joke?[/quote]
Not that I'm aware of.

.

What do you think of it dan?

Anen, just because a tell is old doesn't mean it's outdated. I don't think Yos was being as serious as I was though.

So, was dat een grapje, Yos?

This is not my first RVS. I wouldn't class myself as a veteran in mafia games but I have been playing probably over a year and in a lot of games. I've seen scum caught once or twice from random votes and I've seen a few games where we have caught scum on day one.

Dat kan.

That is rare (genuinely catching scum by a mistake during RVS).

No, we shouldn't ignore Day1. Everything happening now will be crucial on later Dayz.

cky for being a lurker and not really playing. And yes, I realize the irony in that reasoning, but I get a vibe from him that he's trying to be the casual guy in the corner who drops in every so often to say inoffensive things.

Wait-oh aren't there others not sitting to post?

You accuse me of lurker-hunting (as being a bad thing), and then you FoS a lurker yourself... Hmmm. Interesting.

NBecause you're scum

[Aneninen]

Why are you mixing Dutch and English?

At least it's not German again, okay?

And Happy Yule, Everyone!

[Aneninen]

Are you Dutch, ?

Je taal is echt mooi

[Aneninen]

Scummies Nomination but someine told me how to delete it so I hope it's not standing there.

But I'm going to sleep


I shouldn't post at all now.

NOt the first case snf I 'm collecting warnings as others those pokemons

[Aneninen]

Firstly, sorry for being a jerk last night.
I'm catching up.

[Aneninen]

This is fairly accurate. I'm taking a backseat on purpose while the holiday finishes. Sorry, I know that's shitty, but I am following along.

I actually did the same thing quite a couple of times, regardless of my alignment. I think it's a null.

ABR is basically playing in his normal meta. Loud, obnoxious, picking fights. It's basically how I expect town-ABR to act. It's not really an alignment tell, he could do that as either alignment, but I haven't seen any red flags from him yet.

I wouldn't describe ABR's play I know in a way like that. In spite of it, that seems to be the town-ABR I've seen before.

However, if a player seriously pushes for the lynch of another player, and this would have taken a huge risk if both were scum, then I am more inclined to believe that they are not scum together, i.e., that at least one of them is innocent.

Not essentially. Scum-scum puppetshows do exist.
And you're speculating too much.

VOTE: Lucky2u
Found scum.

Why?
What do you think of AlwaysInnocent?

VOTE: Lucky2u
I know that we are still transitioning from RVS to scumhunting, but Lucky2u is playing too minimalistic now even for my taste. I want to see more from him.

Are you just voting any wagon gains momentum?
I don't think we're still in the transition of RVS–scumhunting.

AlwaysInnocent, 135 – again, speculating instead of scumhunting.

kmd and alwaysinnocent are scumbuddies. you heard it here first.

I have my doubts about KMD, but I am curious why you think that. Like I said, trying to find positive connections between scum on D1 often fails. So why do you think you are able to find a connection between me and KMD? For giving up so easily on me? That caught my attention, too. But what does it tell us? Not much.

scumbuddies confirmed

Kidding, right?

if i were a dayvig i would shoot you right now

unvote, vote: always innocent

Well, good that you aren't then, because that would be totally reckless.
BTW. Why me, and not KMD?

This last bit tells me that KMD's not scum but AlwaysInnocent is. Or at least, scums often try to "lead" players to their suspected buddy if they know the buddy-guess is wrong.

There most definitely is. Scum would happily spend most of their time posting about theory because it distracts from actually scum hunting. Both your posting and Kop's posting around this subject makes me feel uneasy.

^^
That!
BBT could be town, I guess. I know those "interrogative BBT-catchups".

If other people want to play without theory, then that is up to them. I, however, refuse to play without theory. I don't play chess without theory either.

Hhhhhhhhhh
BBT, I guess you remember JK9 – and everything I did there as scum. ^_^

Caught up.
VOTE: Yos
This needs to happen now.

Why is Yossarian scummier than AlwaysInnocent?

People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

Your logic is bad and you should feel bad. ^_^

I note Yos' vociferous defense of AI in 151. My suspicion is that it makes Yos more likely scum and AI more likely town.

I have limited experience on Yossarian but he seems to be a vociferator.

People usually confirm in different ways; a few examples to illustrate my point.
'/confirm. Let's get this game going.'
'/confirm, wooooo, I'm excited'
'/confim, y'all are making me nervous already.'
'/confirm, accompanied with random GIF' etc etc.
I'm sure you get the point now.

Yeah, I've seen such things before but sometimes players just post /confirm. I'd never consider it a tell. (And I thought you'd been joking in that very early post.)

It makes perfect sense to hunt for lurkers early D1. Mainly to pressure them to become more active, making it easier to read them.

Fighting a lurker instead of an active player is a thing scums often do. (Actually I did the same in another C9 game. The first scum-game on MafiaScum ever.)

actually he's right the verbiage of the pm was very specific, part of why i found your opening point dumb. also we're way beyond arguing about whose confirms are scummy now so lets just get together and lynch always innocent for actually being obvscum.

Gzzzzzzzzz I haven't even read that part. ^_^
(Wow, I'm a caught scum now, aren't I?)

[Aneninen]

As for Day1 speculations, here's my opinion:

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

[Aneninen]

the reason this playstyle is effective is because scum freak right out when they can't figure out what they've done wrong

Or whenever they get scumread for silly or wrong reasons. (They're usually prepared for the *real* reasons for getting scumread – but often get confused when they can "talk themselves out" of things they have actually never done.)

I

think

roflcopter is town. I think it is hard to fake this kind of... well... bad play.

Townreading someone who's leading a wagon against us is a thing scums often do, hoping they can "appease" the player.

Never mind Lucky... I found someone better.
UNVOTE: Lucky
VOTE: Albert B.
Albert, come play with us.

Burying the fact that you'd joined so many wagon before this by adding this pressure-izing, although pointless vote.

No, it's not.

In my experence, town usually lose to semi-active scum who fly under the radar. That happens because people focus on attacking people who are loud, aggressive, and obnoxious, while ignoring people who are quiet and only just kind of contributing.

The best way to avoid that is, instead of only looking for scum tells, look for town tells, look for people who are acting like town. Make a list of them. Compare them to the list of the people playing the game. There will usually be a few people who aren't on your list of town people, and who you hadn't really even noticed were in the game and hadn't thought about until you made a list.

Those people are usually the scum.

Wrong.
TSO, RadiantCowbells, Tiershift, Farside, Jaqen, Aneninen.
I've seen very agressive scumplay from all of those players.

About Yosarian, in general. I can't decide whether he's scum and I can't talk about it because of [ongoing games], but I think he's someone whom could be investigated at Night – and that will clear everything.

[Aneninen]

Are you just voting any wagon gains momentum?
I don't think we're still in the transition of RVS–scumhunting.

I am voting for lurkers

atm

.

Oh, that underlined part...

^^
That!
BBT could be town, I guess. I know those "interrogative BBT-catchups".

It doesn't take much to convince you.

Or we know each others' gameplay quite well with BBT.

Fighting a lurker instead of an active player is a thing scums often do. (Actually I did the same in another C9 game. The first scum-game on MafiaScum ever.)

Because luring out lurkers certainly has no value, right?

Oh My Gods... good luck pressurizing ABR!

I like you Anen. Regarding me being a wagon-hopper, I tend to switch up my style based on what the town seems to need, especially D1. Take that with a grain of salt of course.

Can you explain why town needed those votes?

Hmmm... let me parrot that question!

1) As far as I can tell, AlwaysInnocent's biggest scumtell that is vote worthy is lurking, people who scumread him are scummy, and people who townread him are weird.

Here comes another parrot. (A clever parrot which could repeat the other points written there too.)

Anen, have you played with scumABR or just townABR?

No, I must admit I haven't played with scum-ABR. (I only know he did the same as here as town.) But, there may be investigation-PR(s) who, sooner or later, will try to sort him out, so...

[Aneninen]

Merry Christmas/Hanukkah/Yule/or-whatever-you-celebrate-now Everyone!

[Aneninen]

Do you really believe that of someone who has been playing for 8 years?

That's Applying to Authority, or whatever the name of that logical fallacy is.
(Generally speaking, the tune of your 209 is something I've never seen from you before, and right now I don't know what I should think of it.)

I mean, the only person who even tried to make a case was BBT, but he's probably scum.

Yet you haven't built a case against BBT.

I don't know why he townreads me. For many people I seem to play scummy. Too many for all of them to be scum. So yeah. Don't know.

My paranoid mind says that we've just seen a coaching among'st scumbuddies. (As far as I can remember there's no Daytalk in C9.) But I know it's empty speculation right now.

But

if

he is town, then we should have a look at BBT.

Eh, that'swhy I called it speculation just above. It's also possible that Yos is town, AlwaysInnocent hopes that Yos gets lynched and starts going after BBT.

What makes it a bad answer? Things aren't black and white. You weren't moving onto wagons to pressure people, you weren't starting wagons. You jumped on a wagon that looked like it was gaining steam, then when that one died off and a new one started, you jumped on that one. Both votes were basically naked, and did not look like honest RVS votes. As I said earlier, it was the scummiest thing I had seen, but I've liked your contributions since.

This topic (about Acryon) is a bit outdated, I think.

[Aneninen]

Wishing people happy holidays. Typically what scum would do to appear town.

What the #&@%! does that have to do with any alignments?!

I don't think I can remember ever actually seeing in-thread coaching happen.
Oh and Merry Christmas everyone

Townpost.

What do you think about BBT so far? Has he done anything that looks townish to you?

I've played with him a lot of times. He's amongst those players I think I can read with quite a high accuracy rate. This gameplay I can see now is his town gameplay.

My scum pool is Lowell and Lucky.

The ghosts of christmas past told me

Weird.
Yule fairies are telling me something entirely different.

[Aneninen]

Wishing people happy holidays. Typically what scum would do to appear town.

What the #&@%! does that have to do with any alignments?!

Just a silly joke. Relax.

K.

[Aneninen]

Interesting. Can you be a little more specific? What has he done that looks like his town play?
Are there any specific games he's been town and played like this i should be looking at?

Town-BBT
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=60351
JK9++, as a start. Aggressive interrogation, picking up fights and going after the one he's scumreading like a bulldog.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62118
Similar to the previous one.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=61429
BBT's silly Day1 joke as town. I misread him and Vigged his replacement.

Scum-BBT
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=61171
Team-Mafia, we were scum together. He was much "softer" than he is as town. Although I may be biased here, since I knew his alignment.

Answering the other posts later.

[Aneninen]

If BBT is indeed town, then it is likely that Yosarian is scum.

Nnnnnnnn

happy saturnalia y'all

Thanks !
^_^

This is my current read list, represented as a ranking. I don't think it is perfectly accurate yet, but this is what I currently make of it. From town to fence-scum:

{AlwaysInnocent} (town)
{Roflcopter} (town-leaning)
{Lowell, Shaddowez} (fence-town)
{Aneninen} (fence-townish)
{Kop, Texcat, Acryon, Lucky2u} (null)
{KMD, Albert B., BBT, Yosarian} (fence-scum)

That doesn't make too much sense. Especially in connection with the other post from you, quoted above.

The "why me and not KMD" part is kind of a scummy misdirection in the response to this threat here.

And you noticed the same as I did.

Ok, I'm back. I'm posting real content. Time to move your vote. Not because I care you're voting me, but because I'd like to see where you go from here...

I simply can't decide whether it's scummy or not. My first intuition says it came from a scum-mindset. However, it doesn't match the "relaxed" playstyle of Lucky at all.

I can't tell if Ane actually thought AI was being serious or not... (lol btw AI, cracked me up) If he did, that might have been a scum slip. In my experience, scum lose the ability to recognize jokes while they are attempting to fake being town.

In that case I've "scum-slipped" at least four times so far, lololol! Thought some posts were joke but they weren't and some posts were serious but they weren't.

/end of spam
UNVOTE:
@yos I understand reading someone for not caring what everyone thinks, yes that is usually a town trait. However, I disagree with you applying that to ABR. Stating reads with NO explanation is not a town thing to do.

Ummm... there's something I don't understand.
Your vote was on Shadowez, which was an RVS-vote, wasn't it?
You simply unvoted, but you posted nothing about Shadowez at all. You asked Yosarian move his vote from you because you wanted to see where his vote would go. And your vote is nowhere now. Why?

[Aneninen]

IRL shyt so I'm unable to play tonight.
Tomorrow. Okay?

[Aneninen]

Catching-up.

My vote is nowhere because I could send it in several different directions right now. Gut says AI, paranoia says you, and frustration says ABR. Yos maybe on that list to, I just want to interact with him a bit. Would you like me to throw out a token vote to appease you in the meantime? (you can answer yes, I probably won't do it though)

Eeeew.
Has anyone noticed that this scumlist lacks reasoning?
A gut-read on the wagoned-player and a "maybe-read" on the second-wagoned one.
A paranoia-read on me... it sounds as if it were something. As if townies weren't paranoid of everyone else.
Finally, the frustration-read is a thing I don't even get.

And after that post, here's this one:

VOTE: alwaysinnocent
nevermind Ane, I'm no longer undecided.

You care too much about me and I don't understand, why.
But wow, now I get it! You indeed paranoid of me because you may have thought I was about to develop a scumread on you. Good. It is happening.

Pulsing hot liquid flows through my outstretched tendrils, sending thrills into my interior.
The moment has come. I swell and burst.
Violent action ensues.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lucky2u

VOTE: KMD

Where the dark seashore of fairies timeless willows standing along that vote was from?

You seem to care an awful lot about being voted.

I've never parrotted ABR before. But this moment has come too.

You have not yet convinced me you are town, and Anen's impassioned defense of BBT has made me doubt my read there at least until i have time to do some serious meta homework, so I don't see any reason to move my vote at the moment.

Impassioned?
I only want to make a couple of things be short.
But, if you want reasons, there are the reasons. BBT's 315–317. I know that typical "Answer this! Answer that! You still haven't answered my 243rd question in that post!" BBT-posting. And trust me, it's really, really scary if you're scum against him. ^_^

Eh, it's a fairly effective strategy for scum to sit back, especially early on and let the town tear each other up.

Although I told it someone else before, I'm telling it again: it's not the

only

strategy. Some players start out agressive as scum too.

I don't agree. If you look at the context, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to not assume that a veteran player is posting something because they are being "stupid". If you want to clear a new player based on the premise of them not understanding a situation, then that's a little more passable, but I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that a veteran player is less likely to play stupidly. Regarding your other comment, I told you all I like to switch things up

Got it.

(I'm still catching up. Willing to re-join the AI-wagon if needed.)

[Aneninen]

I don't agree. If you look at the context, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to not assume that a veteran player is posting something because they are being "stupid". If you want to clear a new player based on the premise of them not understanding a situation, then that's a little more passable, but I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that a veteran player is less likely to play stupidly.

Except when they become overconfident because they are more experienced. It happens all the time. I have seen new players play better than experienced players simply because new players are more self-conscious and do not assume that they are right because of minor things.

I don't get this answer.

This is, and always has been, a copout. Anyone who is widely seen as scummy is an "easy target". Caught scum is just as easy a target as mislynch bait.

That.

You seem to be scumreading Yos anyway. Why does BBT being town make Yos scum?

Since BBT is eager to lynch Yosarian, it seems.

Or there's another possibility. Both of them are town, you're scum who's hoping for a Yos-lynch and building up a later BBT-lynch.

I don't want you to move your vote, I don't really care about that. My concern is that you parked your vote on a player who was a then lurker so you wouldn't have to take a stance on anyone else. Now that I'm here and active,

if you truly believe me to be scum then I've achieved my goal.

You're not hiding your vote.

Am I reading this right, you want to be scum read, is that your goal?

I want to be nominated for The Most Idiotic Speculation Award with this:
Maybe Lucky's goon, AI is scum-PR?

Consistency is a scum tell.

Whut?

ok at this point i could lynch either ai or yos today, nostalgia be damned. they're both scum.

How about Yosarian + KMD?

How about no?

multipass

Leeloo Dallas.

i'm also waiting for yos to stop burying himself in a stupid argument about reads lists and tell me in words why ai is a townread

He's not as hard a town read as he was a few pages ago. Still leaning town on him, though.
For one thing, if he was scum, I don't really think he would turn on me like that and vote me when i was the one defending him. That does not seem like something a scum worried about self preservation would do.

For a scum, any lynch who's not scum is a good lynch. Regardless of "allies" or "enemies".

[Aneninen]

What I was trying to get at is that I think Yos' reasons for town reading ABR are BS. I think it's an early read to try and pocket ABR (and I think it's working). I don't think scum!Yos reads scum!ABR like that, I think he would try and flesh out the read a little more. I think this is scum!Yos trying to pocket town!ABR and nullify a potential threat to him. The fact he stated that ABR could easily manipulate the meta but still called him town felt all kinds of wrong to me as well.

Pocketting town-ABR? Oh, lol...

Not really WIFOM. Person A calls person B town, person B votes person A. Person B is clearly does not care about trying to stay on person As good list. Which makes me thin AI cares more about scumhunting then survival.

He's also moving his vote around a lot in a way that feels townish, like he's really scumhunting.

There are a few other iffy things he's done since then though. I agree the KMD thing felt oppertunistic, and he's not reacting well to pressure. So he is down from a strong town read to a weaker town read.

Eeiiaaoorrhffffftzzzzzzzzz
The first part is simply not true. Scums sometimes townread their most vehement attacker because they're afraid of being called OMGUS-y.
His constant vote-hopping is not really town-ish. Null at best (but that's not the only thing I don't like about AI.)
And that last part... it sounds like a kind of scum-scum defense. A typical "yeah, there are a couple of things I don't like about him/her

but

..."

ai, come back to your bus vote on yos and i'll give you a townie brownie!

If I get lots of townie points, then I will

bus

everyone you want.

VOTE: Yosarian

bus?
BUS?

BBT is pretty clealy scum here. He's not really scumhunting. He's not really saying anything relevent, just posts wall after wall of text to try to srive a mislynch he doesn't really believe in.

WHUT?

There is no "rofl-yos bickerparty". Rofl keeps calling me scum for no real reason. I still think he's town, and have mostly ignored him other then to answer a few questions.

Erm... see right above...

A few general impressions of the game so far...

(I've deleted the post itself, check it for details)

Okay, Texcat may be town. Partly gut, party direct meta.

[Aneninen]

Pulsing hot liquid flows through my outstretched tendrils, sending thrills into my interior.
The moment has come. I swell and burst.
Violent action ensues.

this is some serial killer stuff right here...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
Google it. ^_^

(Hint: yes, I'm absolutely crumbing SK in THIS Setup, especially on Day1.)

[Aneninen]

Actually I don't think it was a joke.
It would have been if there hadn't been a vote right after it.

Also, the style you told it was a joke.
Had you told "badly phrased" or something like that, I might have believed you.
And this has nothing to do with your intelligence.

The whole reaction gave me massive scum vibes.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: AlwaysInnocent

[Aneninen]

Anen, why won't you join the Yos wagon?

Originally I thought he's town because of [because of Site Rules I'm not allowed to explain it].
However, behind some of his later posts I can imagine a scum-mindset easily

if

he's scum with AI.
That if prevents me joining the wagon.

Post-edit.
AI, I have never insulted your intelligence. I'm scumreading you.

[Aneninen]

Right now, yes.
Also, I find Lucky much scummier than Yos.

[Aneninen]

How can I say, I

see

why you're scumreading him but I don't know whether he's scum or not. I'm not allowed to express my doubts.

Generally speaking, an investigation could make him confirmed in either way. (Of course only if we have Cop at all.)

As for Lucky, I posted my reasons before.

[Aneninen]

The more I read you two, the surer I am that you're town-vs-towning right now.

[Aneninen]

I haven't read anything new, but here's a Star Wars spoiler...

Spoiler:

IT FUCKING RULEZ!!!!!!!!

[Aneninen]

Anen, I think you're town and I think Always is scum so seeing you on the wagon is cool and all, but there's no way the "bus" thing was a slip. It was clearly a joke. Could he still be scum with Yos? Sure. But not for that reason.

Maybe you're right and it was indeed a joke. But that's not the main reason why I'm scumreading AI. And his reaction to my post (where I pointed out that "bus") was scummy too. I was never talking about his intelligence.
Why do you think Yos and AI could be scums together?

By the way, here's something else about AI. His wagon clearly seems to be derailed. And if I'm right about this, Yos can't be scum.

Is it hard to leave the thread when you're scum and under pressure?
Always have that feeling that you need to defend yourself in case you get lynched while you're away?

I don't think that's unique to scum. Getting lynched as town sucks too.

...especially on Day1.
However, sometimes scums are leaving the thread in the middle of the conversation for a while so as not to look over-defensive.

For those wondering who I side with on Yos vs BBT, I'm honestly not sure. I usually decide these things quickly, but both are good players so it's hard. Yes, Yos sounds more logical but his logic feels like it has holes and might be insincere. BBT is also playing to his scum meta, but his scum meta is to look town as fuck so that's pretty shitty to base a case on. I don't like BBT not replying to Yos' case but the case wasn't that great to begin with. I know this sucks, but I could go either way on both players.

Why do you think Yos is more logical?
As for BBT, you don't think you're right. That seems to be his town-meta (...which I'm scared of whenever I'm scum).

Look at his word choices. He keeps saying stuff like "page 4 reads are shit" and going way out of his way to try to discredit that list. He's not just trying to lynch me, he's trying to lynch me and to discredit that list.

Having read that list again I don't think it is worth the effort talking about.
I too think that list was terrible, yes. But I don't think it was scummy. And most importantly, I don't think it is worth discrediting it.

unvote, vote: always innocent

approximately one bajillion things are going on, and there's a pile of people scumreading him for all sorts of reasons at this point, and ai is arguing about whether he's making jokes instead of engaging with any of it.

^^
That.

ftr kmd is still a scumread and he is still looking very scumbuddytastic with always innocent.¹ i also hate the whole paragraph above that starts with "for those wondering..." about yos and bbt, it's so scummy i want to barf. yos and bbt both town?² i am actually coming on board with that conclusion a bit right now. yos really needs to ignore bbt and do something else with his time right now though i'm not reading any more of that back and forth.³

(1) and (2) – Elaborate, please!
(3) – Indeed.

bus?
BUS?

This is the second joke that you missed. Please don't insult my intelligence.

The problem is, I don't know if you would make that joke if you actually thought i was scum. You clearly care a lot about how you look, so if you actually thought I was going to flip scum, you would be worried that people think you and I are connected.

Insead, you're joking about it, which really only makes sense if you already know I'm going to flip town. Even when you're trying to lynch me. Putting the 5th vote on a bad wagon on me for no reason in fact.

That sounds logical, acutally.

MOD:

Mod, I'm gonna have to go vla until at least Wednesday.

My phone broke and this tablet thing is weird and hard to use but I'm working the next two days for 16 hours each day so I'm not sure when or how to get a new phone or if it will even be any good for internet. Sorry I didn't bold. Not sure where those bracket things for bbcode are with this damn thing. Honestly I may be phoneless until March.

FIFY, Kmd

[Aneninen]

Anyway, if you are town, then perhaps we have been looking at the wrong people. What do you think about Aneninen? I am starting to think that he knows that I am the VI in this game and picks an easy target, when he probably should know better if he were town.

I've never thought you'd be a VI.
Calling yourself the easy target, on the other hand, while Yos is the leading wagon is pigeon poop.

As a matter of fact, I don't really get why I'm

that

town. I mean, compared to the effort I've made so far, there are too many townreads on me. Which means, there must be at least one scum amongst those players.

[Aneninen]

I don't know.

[Aneninen]

I think the scum can be found in this pool:
{Kmd, Lowell, Kop, Lucky} and possibly {Aneninen}.

This, alongside with your unvote looks important.
Give me some details, please!

[Aneninen]

Can you show me a game where bbt played this way as town? I feel like I remember him being less of a presence as town but maybe I'm wrong.

I already posted some links before.

If the BBT wagon really isn't going anywhere (and, again, it's way too early to say that) my second choice at the moment would be Lowell.

Hmm-hmm-e-hmm...
And there have already been two players voting for him since this post...
(By the way, I don't see anything particularly scummy about Lowell.)

I kind of agree with Shaddowez there, so I will be joining the Lowell wagon.
VOTE: Lowell

And you still haven't answered my question.

[Aneninen]

The thing I don't understand that Lowell mentioned, is how rofl is a strong town read, ahead of anybody else. I mean I've seen the posts from rofl and I wouldn't class that confidence to be a strong town read, I'm reading them from town POV but I wouldn't put it high up on my list.

What is scummy about Rofl?

As for Lowell, okay, here's something.

@mod

I'll be away from noon tomorrow until Monday morning. I may or may not have internet access during that time (I will try to check in at least once or twice, but don't have a smartphone so it's sort of a pain in the ass).

Can I proxy my vote while I'm away?

~.No <.< ~.Zar

I simply can't imagine a scum asking that. (Although I haven't got the slightest idea what "proxy a vote" means.)

Is there some significance to the fact that Yos (along with other, btw) have made comments about Lowell being scummy before myself and AI voting for him?

I don't know it yet.
It may be important later when there have been a couple of flips.

Right now, my two main suspects are Lowell, and AlwaysInnocent, Lucky2you lingering in third.

This also may be important after a couple of flips. If Kop flips scum, Lucky is likely scum too. (Scums often put a buddy on their scumlist, but only as the 3rd possibility or something like that.)

alwaysinnocent, always following onto bandwagons, never leading

Here's something else.
Counterwagons come and go while the AI-wagon is there. Does this tell us anything? Hm? He? Huh?

VOTE: Kop
Misrep of Lowell's post.

Texcat is town. And I don't like Kop's posts either.

[Aneninen]

Also, AI, I'm still waiting for the answers.

[Aneninen]

I will give details later tonight. I don't have much time now.
Texcat seems town to me.
If I am wrong about Lowell, then Kop could be scum. I don't think they are

both

scum.

I'm still waiting.
I agree with the Texcat-read.
Have you considered what if Kop is scum and Lowell is not?

What's not to like? Let's talk.

Eg.

If you don't want to be lynched, the best way is to prove your worth, to show why you shouldn't be lynched. And if someone is put under pressure by questions, deliberately ignoring them, is going to get you lynched. It might just be me that thinks that, but I think keeping quiet, isn't the key to avoid being lynched.

Is pigeon poop. Your case in the same post is long but contains little information.
I've already mentioned the first part of your 470. As for its second part, it looks like you leave the possibility open for jumping on Yos if it's needed.

In some mafia rulesets, you can proxy your vote, which means you give another person the right to make your vote for you. Used to be a commonly allowed practice, although only used rarely, especially when someone was on v/la and a deadline was approaching.
No special reason a scum wouldn't do that, if it's allowed. Can be a way to buddy someone, for example.

Oh. I thought it was a kind of "technical thing".
I think this rule is terrible, by the way.
In RL games I've seen similar activities as scum, eg. once I was having a shower during a Day phase and I got someone to vote instead of me.
So, maybe it's a null then. I need to think about it.

Kop

- If AI and Lowell are both scum reads, why join the smaller wagon of Lowell?

That's a good question. And he posted a lot about Lowell and hasn't posted about AJ for days...

Why is everyone trying so hard to get me to unvote BBT? First rofl, then AI, now you.
I think BBT is probably scum. I think, based on his play so far this game, that we should lynch him today. So I am voting him
If someone wants to give me a real readon they're townreading BBT I'll listen, but right now i don't see him as town.

I don't think that lynch would happen Today. (And it's not only because of my townread, which I've already explained .)
What are your other reads?

I'd have hoped that Lowell getting more votes, it would bring him out and to show why he shouldn't be scum read, ahead of AI and Lucky.

???
Gut says this is fake, but I can't put my finger on anything in it.

How can you come to the conclusion that scum wouldn't ask that without knowing what it means?

See above. I thought it might be something entirely different.

This Yos v. BBT is a fucking disgraceful distraction. It's a belated, neatly wrapped Christmas present for scum. Both are fucking town and tunnelling like crazy. Work together. Maybe things will happen and the rest of the townsfolks will revisit their town read on both of you. You're both good players. Don't let your confirmation bias rule how you play this day. You're ruining this for everyone.

There are enough things in this game happening, why don't you focus on those?

AlwaysInnocent (4): Lucky2u, Aneninen, roflcopter, Lowell

I'm pretty fucking sure there are two scum voting for AI right now.

In your 248 your scumpool was Lucky and Lowell. Has it changed?

[Aneninen]

Happy new year you dirty bastards

2nd that.

[Aneninen]

Catching-up.

Who says I'm going to vote for Yos? I said I was going to go over the whole back and forth again, because when I first read it as it was happening, It felt town vs town. I would struggle to find who would possibly be scum in that whole back and forth.

In other words, you kept the possibility open.

How is keeping quiet gets you lynched, pigeon poop?

The whole part I quoted was pigeon poop. Do not misinterpret/misrepresent me.

Not really satisfied with Kop and Anen's answer about proxy votes, but both said the same thing so I guess I'll drop it. Speaking of those two, I agree with Kop on lurkers. They tend to get lynched. Maybe not Day 1. But Day 2-4 lynches tend to contain at least one lurker lynch.

I'll just requote this without any further explanation. It's something might be an important bit later.

Roflcopter, if you are somehow scum, then this is a really badass way to get me lynched.

Rofl is so town that I have to adjust the measuring limit on my town-o-meter to detect him.

Meh. I don't know about Yosarian anymore. After skimming through his ISO a bit, my impression of him is different. Perhaps I was too paranoid when he was townreading me.

UNVOTE: Yosarian

What did you see in his ISO that made you change your mind?

That question was bad and you should feel bad.

BBT is scum. This is all too familiar to his play in Team Mafia.

I think he was much softer then. Although I may be bias-ed, after all I was one of his buddies...

Yeah, I'm with Yos on the most recent Yos/BBT exchange. BBT calling Yos' posts an attempt to discredit feels ridiculously manipulative. I like Yos' post 531 and think BBT should do that. It should be easy if he's so sure Yos is scum. If BBT is town though, I don't like Tex's sheep vote.

I still think they're town-vs-town-ing. Although I agree with the last bit.

I've had a long-running assumption that BBT is town. But all right, I guess I'll reexamine that. 531 makes an interesting point. And I agree with AI's 543.

Hm-hm-dum-de-dum, I wonder where this will go.

He's only interested in engaging Yosarian with weak ass arguments. He looks like he's holding on to his positions tightly instead of evolving reads. I'm pretty sure he's scum, seen him do the same thing before.

You were his team mate at Team Mafia, weren't you?

Lowell, any idea what triggered that assumption?

Don't really recall. I could iso myself but that's bullshit. I think I just had an early read on him as playing townish. But I'm starting to buy what ABR is selling, I think. And it does fit with what scum might do: (1) jump in early, get ppl to say you're town; (2) do nothing else; (3) win. So as I said I'll reconsider.

Eeiiaao?

Yeah, I'm a little uncomfortable about Lowell's turn here, especially since not too long ago Lowell had joined BBT's wagon on me; apparently Lowell liked BBT's case against me just fine then.

You're not the only one.

AI. I'm still waiting. You must know what for.

[Aneninen]

I kind of agree with Shaddowez there, so I will be joining the Lowell wagon.
VOTE: Lowell

This feel town...too brazen for scum. Vote isn't 'fleshed out' enough.

Explain.

toffee the yos wagon is dead time for you to get on the ai wagon

It isn't. I'm not leaving my #1 scum read until I have to. You really need to read my latest post on Yos and rejoin this wagon.

What counts as "have to"?

I simply can't imagine a scum asking that. (Although I haven't got the slightest idea what "proxy a vote" means.)

I know Kmd pulled this up but I'm parroting it. I find it super strange that you're town reading someone when you don't even understand what you're town reading them for.

I've already answered this.
I thought it was a kind of technical stuff (something like automatized voting or whatever). Then I said I'd revise my read on him. And as you can see in my previous post, I wasn't amused a couple of things he'd done recently.

In your 248 your scumpool was Lucky and Lowell. Has it changed?

This post just pinged me hard.
This feels like a roundabout way of asking ABR if he is scum reading you. That's scummy.

I f-cking don't care whether ABR scumreads me. I wanted (and want) to get a read on him, which is hard because of his posting style. I'd say he's town, but only because of his style, and someone pointed out that it would be insufficient reasoning to townread him, especially because I hadn't seen his scum-game yet.
Also, it's disappointing that he didn't answer that post. Had he done so, I could have seen whether his reads were/are consistent.
His recent push and vote on you is strange, too. (And as for this, it lacks consistency!) Yet again, I want to know (1) he's scumreading for real reasons (2) he's misreading you or (3) he's faking.

[Aneninen]

ABR pocketed? Check.
ABR joined the wagon I'm pushing? Check.
Keep on ABR's goodside by repeatedly stating how town he is. Check.

And your read on ABR is...?

If I don't manage to lynch Yos today and either I, or ABR, get killed N1. Please fucking lynch this.

EIIIIIIIIIRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFFZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
Regardless of your alignment that's the worst kind of WIFOM.

Your posts were very calculated. You tried to steer me in a direction and manipulate my posts in a way in which you could attack me for it. That's not how town work, that's scum.

Calculated?

[Aneninen]

This year is starting out with very little free time for me. The drop you'll experience in my activity is not a tell in itself. Thank you for understanding.

[Aneninen]

BBT, I don't remember you being this tunnely...

I tunnel as either alignment.

No, actually, you were much softer as scum. Although I've seen you as scum only once before and I was scum too in that game.

I just did. He hopped aboard the wagon very nonchalant. I don't think he would do that as scum, it just looks too obvious. Scum tend to flesh their votes out more so they look more legit when people revisit them after flips, I'm not seeing that from AI.

Nope.
I've seen scums hopping on wagons with little-to-none reasoning.

Either I'm in danger of being lynched or we're running out of time.

K that makes sense.

OK, I agree that ABR can be difficult to read (I'm pretty sure he has tricked me before) but I still don't like the way you phrased that post. I mean, if you were looking for consistency in his reads, why didn't you ask who he thought was scum on the wagon? Why provide him with his previous reads and thus give him a much lower chance of slipping up? It doesn't really make sense.

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
I wanted to see his reasoning but I don't think it would ever be the same as it would have been without talking about this.

I feel like he is town but I want to scum read him out of frustration.

I don't like this and I don't know why.

If I get lynched, I want Roflcopter to reflect back on his tunneling and check what he missed because he was tunneling me. I think that there is at least one scum on my wagon.

Just try to believe that Rofl is town, will you?

And you're still doing this no-content "lynch Yos just because" thing. It just looks like a fake tunnel.

Need you be that survivalistique while answering a terrible WIFOM?

BBT vs Yos is a waste of time that is still happening, it's town vs town.

And I still think so.

Anen's post felt like he was most interested in spreading doubt. I'm giving him a scum lean.

What sort of doubt have I spread?
I have my own reads, why for the dancing fairies' still hoping to abduct me for another hundred of years should I adjust my reads to something that would earn me more town credit?

Texcat, we haven't had a chance to interact yet.

I like this part. (Why would a scum need open a new "battlefront"?)

BBT was in good standing and then he just ruined himself. Like a heroin addict, he threw everything away for his Yosarian vote and now his stock price and credibility are at rock bottom. If he had any shred of town in him,

he would have listened to me

and the others and backed off this ridiculous nonsensical tunnel.

? for the underlined part

ai / bbt scumteam actually makes a ton of sense

...because?

I was starting to come around to this too until I saw the votecount. You think we'd get 8 votes on scum? Usually seems like one of two leading wagons is scum, but not both.

Erm, at that point there were 3–3 votes for BBT and Lowell. Besides, if scums have PRs, it matters whom is to get lynched.

I also won't rule out that ABR and BBT could be scum together. Their attacks seem extreme, but they might do it for the lulz if they think they have the game under control.

Please, explain how ABR keeps the game under his control.

I think it is best for town to resolve BBT v Yos earlier rather than later.

I'm just leaving this quote here.

How many games have you played in where the two leading wagons on D1 both ended up being scum?

Erm, I've seen a game like that. There were a counterwagon on a scum, because the main wagon would have hit the Mafia Encryptor. Mini1601 or something like that.

BBT feels town, AI does not. Anen felt fairly town but I also didn't like what BBT caught in 576. Rofl feels like wrong town. Yos is town. I think I like kmd. I don't like texcat. Others I'm less sure on.

What's your problem with TexCat. As for your other reads, well-okay. Oh, why Rofl is "wrong town"?

[Aneninen]

Erm, I've seen a game like that. There were a counterwagon on a scum, because the main wagon would have hit the Mafia Encryptor. Mini1601 or something like that.

One whole game? You're just proving my point that it's incredibly unlikely.

Maybe. I don't remember whether there were other examples too.

Rofl is wrong town because BBT is town. Regarding texcat, actually in re-reading through texcat to see what I felt was off, I realize I misread something because I actually don't not like him.

Rofl's primary scumread is AI and I too asked why he thought AI could be scum with BBT.
As for Texcat, needless to say, your opinion seems to be biased, therefore I ignore it.

Anen is town.

Why?

? for the underlined part

I said "BBT stop this madness" and he ignored. If town he probably would have given consideration.

Why should BBT listen to you?

[Aneninen]

Is that all?

What about this?

I think the scum can be found in this pool:
{Kmd, Lowell, Kop, Lucky} and possibly {Aneninen}.

I feel like Leo.
He's never got an Oscar.
I've never got an answer for my question.

[Aneninen]

Is that all?
What about this?

I think the scum can be found in this pool:
{Kmd, Lowell, Kop, Lucky} and possibly {Aneninen}.

I feel like Leo.
He's never got an Oscar.
I've never got an answer for my question.

That's because you are scum and I am lazy.
It is typical for scum to keep nagging about some question that needs to be answered, even though you aren't truly interested.

Your laziness never makes anyone scum.
And guess what, I

am

interested in that answer.
Do you know what my problem is? You seem to join every single wagon, every single case. No matter whom, but let's lynch someone else but you.

And that's the crux of the problem. If you're scum you must have at least one buddy. (Unless you're SK but it's way too early to speculate about SKs.) I want to see the mindset behind your reads, townreads included. And so far I haven't seen anything from you but jumping on everything.

UNVOTE:
Because I want answers.

[Aneninen]

Anen, you're town because you're not on my wagon. I'm flavour of the month at the moment, and maybe this is slightly egotistical, but I think scum!Anen wouls jump at the chance to lynch me.

That's a terrible reason for townreading me.
What about Boonie's?

Fuck this shit.
VOTE: BBT

And that's what I'd been talking about in my previous post.

What makes you think this? Just because Anen doesn't think BBT is scum (I'm not convinced at this point, either), what makes you think he's actually buddying? Also, if BBT is scum, don't you think that would be brazen of Anen at this point since there's so much focus on BBT?

I'm not sure. Others, including ABR scumreading him because of his tunnelling make me think that I might be wrong, but I still don't think he's the scummiest here.
I think scum-BBT would care much more about getting some town-credit, especially in a situation he's in.

Additionally, with the amount of people reading Yos as town, if BBT were scum wouldn't it make more sense for him to try for more low hanging fruit at this point then continuing to push on his read?

It offers him a number of advantages:

-He's not on any mislynches today
-He keeps his interactions and accusations low enough to not attach himself to anyone
-He hunkers down and waits for a mislynch to happen

Tunnelling on town and not getting flak for it is a great strategy. Scumhunting and changing reads is hard.

Let's see what happens next, shall we?

(By the way, I don't know why I trust ABR at all and at this point I'm afraid to ask myself.)

If AI lives to see tomorrow I'll eat my bunny ears.

WHUT?

Sure, I say that Aneninen is scum, but do people really care about what I think? No. Many people seem to think I am scum. So in that sense Aneninen goes "unnoticed".

I'm not scum but people should care about your thoughts anyway.
And we're back to my original question. Who do you think is scum and why? Also, who are your townreads?

Yosarian and KMD still seem somewhat scummy to me, so I am probably misreading some people, since I am also scumreading BBT, Aneninen, Lucky and Lowell. (After all, there cannot be more than 3 scum.)

Have you read the Setup at all?
By the way, six scumreads?! WOW! If I were you I'd remove Yos and KMD, as a first step.

If BTT is scum, Anen is likely town. Because if BTT is scum, then that thing where BTT townread Anen out of nowhere for a terrible reason while there was no pressure on Anen a few pages ago was probably an attempt to buddy. I doubt a scum would point a giant arrow at their partner like that right after they get into serious trouble.

Hmmm... Something's not right here and I don't know what.

[Aneninen]

[Aneninen]

Actually I think the same.
't was grappig, he?

[Aneninen]

Post-edit.

No, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo shyt I just can't believe it!

KODAK MOMENT!

[Aneninen]

I simply can't believe that you've faked this, AI.
If so, you deserve to live.

[Aneninen]

Frankly, AI, you've made my day. I'm laughing IRL

[Aneninen]

The Setup, AI, the Setup!
And it was obvious that Acryon was talking about you.

For the others: When I read the original post I wasn't sure whether he hadn't read the Setup, but his reactions made everything clear. AI hasn't got an idea what the Setup is.

[Aneninen]

Not a townslip. He's right...

He thought Acryon had posted I'd townslipped...

[Aneninen]

It's such a pity that I need to go now. Frankly, that's been one of the moments when I've genuinely laughed because of a game.

[Aneninen]

Okay. Acryon is probably town. Why waste such an easy lynch if he was Mafia?

That's not an alignment tell.

And to prove I can flip-flop with the best of them, I'm also all-in on ABR's case on BBT. No one iso me, it's embarrassing.

UNVOTE: AI
VOTE: BBT

Yeah, and if BBT gets lynched and flips town, I know who's needed to be investigated first.
In other words: I seriously disliked this jump.

I personally don't consider SK until there is an extra kill.

Well said, nuff said.

I'm buying ABR's overall logic, which I paraphrase as: jump in early, look town, tunnel on one person who isn't a major lynch target, sit back and profit.

Wait-oh-whut?
What are you talking about?
If I'm able to comprehend this (which is not sure because I'm drunk) this doesn't really a good description of ABR's gameplay.

I agree that most slips are BS. I don't think this one is.

For the latecomers.
It's not the slip in itself, it could have been faked, too.
It's his REACTIONS. It was obvious that Acryon had been talking about him, yet AI was still thinking that Acryon had been thought I had been scumslipped and he kept doubting that slip... which had never ever existed.

Maybe I missed it, cause it's not clear to me. Can you point me to where AI says he doesn't think there was a two man team? I don't see how 3 max excludes a two man team. I'm not seeing the slip.

See above, check his fucking reactions. I laughed IRL.

I can agree about AI's responses.

Good.

It is interesting that my "townslip" gives me reads on other people.

Yes, that IS important.
That slip tells nothing about anyone else. Acryon included and you were wrong about that earlier. Which means, I don't think Acryon is scum but not because of talking about that slip. Can you get me?

I love how whenever anyone indicates a town feeling about AI he always feeds them a treat of encouragement. That's not scum at all.

I'm not sure what you read exactly, or why you think that I feed people "treats of encouragement". What does that even mean? You mean that I am relieved that people start to townread me when I was close to being lynched? How scummy of me.
This post of yours reads a lot like scum frustration, having lost a scapegoat. Nice try, buddy.

I'm unable to focus on this post right now but it looks important.

So I'm assuming that rules out AI possibly being scum. Or he could be using that course of action to throw off the suspicion, but I think that would be hard to pull of and maintain the act the whole game.

Whut?
Why do my the intuitive part of my mind thinks that this post was full of frustration?

I know I might regret this fucking vote later but I don't care and I've never been a genuis you know, so

VOTE: Kop

He's cum.

At this point my Sweetheart told me that I shoudl wear my glasses but I'm too lazy to bring it here although it's really tiring to try to read.

acryon

- While I agree that AI's responses since your post about the slip have been townish, I completely disagree with your opinion that not knowing the setup is a town thing. In my experience, scum care less about the set up than town does, as generally the only thing they

need

to know is their fellow scum team. Even in a setup like this where there could be an SK, scum aren't going to care about who they lynch, especially on D1.

That's fucking bullshit.
I've played both C9 and JK9 before, both as scum. I DID care a lot about ths setup and speculated a lot about possible PRs and whatsoever. In a setup like this that IS essential. One was lost to SK one was a joint win. Yeah, at that time I actually played this game well.

[Aneninen]

Whut?

[Aneninen]

Somebody explain very slowly what happened with AI and kop....i dont get it AT ALL

In short, AI townslipped.

[Aneninen]

Tomorrow, ABR, okay? Im not sober enough for mainitaining the conversation right now .

[Aneninen]

VOTE: Kop

He's cum.

Oh shyt.
Really sorry, Kop, I didn't want to offend you.
I wanted to say "He's

s

cum", I was drunk last night.

I think that's been the worst typo ever made.

[Aneninen]

Yeah, the "AI towntell" thing doesn't make any real sense to me, but the way he reacted to it looks townish.

The way he reacted was the real slip.

I think that's been the worst typo ever made.

No. It was clearly a cumslip.[/quote]
I'm on my way to become a legend... for doing something deeply silly.

Do we really not have seven people scumreading Always now?

=/

Count me out.

Your scummyness is public knowledge
Pedit Omg that scum threat

Someone seems to try to find a new mislynch-target desperately...

Unvote, Vote texcat

New wagon
GOGOGO

Why?

You guys are probably going to lynch bbt. The only positive I see from that is it won't drag that argument into tomorrow.
If you meant to ask me who my next desired wagon would be, between Lowell and ABC.

Who's ABC?
Where did your scumread on me go? Or wait, I know... I don't seem to be wagoned Today so that would be useless for you.

I still think that BBT is the best lynch. His tunnel of Yos is scummy. The resistance to his wagon increases my scum read on him. If he were town, scum would have jumped on his wagon and he'd be dead by now.¹ Lynching BBT would resolve the situation and give us a ton of info.²

My other scum reads are Kop, and now an OMGUS read of KMD.³

(1) You MUST know it's never that easy.
(2) Do you suggest a policy lynch? Please tell me you don't.
(3) Kop is not a bad idea.

Basically, she's playing the careful, cautious, in the background agreeing game with a hint of opportunism and active lurking. She doesn't seem at all interesting in finding scum. I think she's worried about her own appearance. It's textbook scum mentality.

I see.
Guess who's gonna be the spoilsport again!
So far Texcat's gameplay has matched her townplay I know.

That said, I'd really like to see a Lowell lynch toDay, but definitely don't want a No Lynch. That will give us no information, and just gives scum an advantage. I'll move my vote later today or tomorrow (Real Time) if it will actually help towards a lynch.

Miss-Marple positive on scum.
(It's a pity that I don't remember his gameplay. That one happened ages ago...)

VOTE: texcat

Now THAT was a scummy jump.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lucky2u

[Aneninen]

What about it? I'm surprised you disagree with me and am already beginning to doubt my town read. Would be funny if after all my talk of pocketing you had pocketed me. Funny in a 'I want to kill myself' kind of way.

Your townread on me = correct.
Your reasoning = false. You were suprised in Boonie's that I'd let you alive athough you'd been scumreading me (correctly) for a long time.
By the way, again, I don't think you're scum. Either I saw something or I'm an idiot, but it is definitely not worth lynching you Today.

Seriously if BBT doesn't die today he never will.

Whut?

Miss-Marple positive on scum.
(It's a pity that I don't remember his gameplay. That one happened ages ago...)

Huh?

Similar gamestyle/posting style/logic/etc. means similar alignment. You remind me of someone.

________

It's sad that none of the wagons I'd really like to be on are moving. Namely: Kop, Lucky and mmmight be Shadowez.
I could consolidate on Lowell if I have to.
I'd never lynch AI, Rofl, KMD.
I think BBT, Yos, Acryon or Texcat would be a bad idea Today.
I don't know what to think of ABR.

[Aneninen]

I know it's terrible but you have to wait until tomorrow. Yet again, unexpected work.

[Aneninen]

Give me one hour or 70 minutes or so. I need to eat and rest and I'm dead tired.

[Aneninen]

Mobilepost.
I have thoughts.
But I have no time today, sorry. Tomorrow I'm coming, okay?

[Aneninen]

I still don't have enough time but I need to point out something even if it may make me look bad.

Yos, you mis-quoted the things in your 1008. Kop's 991 was an answer for Texcat's 754. I didn't take part in that conversation (although according to the quote it looks as if I had done).
Also, there were quite a couple of players thinking your argument with BBT had been town-vs-town, including me.

My current thoughts are coming later. BBT doesn't seem to be a bad lynch but I don't think we should end the Day so fast. I too need some time.

[Aneninen]

I'm posting this afternoon.

Since I was locked out of Yesterday, I'll post my thoughts about that Day too.

[Aneninen]

Something doesn't add up.

Night1:
Albert B. Rampage, Town Vigilante, shot on Night One! –

Killed by Mafia (not proven, but very likely)

AlwaysInnocent, Vanilla Townie, shot on Night One! –

Killed by Lucky (assuming he was telling the truth)

Kop, Mafia Goon, shot on Night One! –

Killed by ABR (not proven, but very likely)

Where's the SK-Nightkill? WIFOM-ing by NoKill? Double-Kill on someone? (If so, on whom?) Blocked by Doc/RB?
If ABR or Kop was Nightkilled by the SK, where is the other Nightkill? ABR chose not to Nightkill? (I don't think he's a player like that.) If his Kill is missing... he must have tried to Nightkill Lowell or BBT. (According to his posts.) Blocked/Doc-ed? If the Mafia's Nightkill is missing, where did it go?
Or the SK is BP and ate a Nightkill.
Or there's no SK.


Night2:
Lucky2u, Town Vigilante, shot on Night Two! –

Killed by Mafia or SK (?) or another Vig? Maybe Mafia, I suppose?

Lowell Vanilla Townie, shot on Night Two! –

Killed by ???

Yosarian2 Vanilla Townie, shot on Night Two! –

Killed by ???

Too many Nightkills. And both the Lowell and Yosarian Kills are strange. Lucky agreed not to kill in 1029. Why did he change his mind later? According to his posts he suspected KMD. Why didn't he Nightkill him if he really needed to do something?

2Goons + Roleblocker + VV+TTT + SK – One missing Nightkill at Night1. Lucky had a Night Action.
Goon + RB + Godfather + VV+1-shot Vig + TT, No SK – 1-Shot used their action at Night2 and Lucky had a Night Action
Goon + RB + GF + VV + SK + T + ?? – Anything is possible. Lucky had a Night Action, Double-Kill at Night1. Or Another Vig (more missing Nightkills at Night1?). Roleblocker/Doc stopped something (Lucky had a Night Action). The latter one is more likely. (?)
Goon + RB + GF + VV + ???, No SK – Even more convulated, I suppose.

The only conclusion I get is the following: no claims should be believed without examining them. At this point any scum could benefit out of a fake-claim, I think.

However

,
I saw something earlier from someone, which looked like a crumb. I'll believe that PR

if

the right player claims the PR I think of.

________

I'll go on with Yesterday's events soon.

Post-edit: No Lynch is pigeon poop. If there will be two votes on that, I'll self-vote. Even an utility lynch is better.

[Aneninen]

So.

(1) Let's go back to the TexCat-wagon.

texcat (7): Kmd4390,

Lucky2u

,

Albert B. Rampage

, shaddowez,

Lowell

,

BlueBloodedToffee

,

Yosarian2

~~~ [LYNCH]

BlueBloodedToffee (4):

texcat

, roflcopter,

AlwaysInnocent

, acryon
Lowell (1):

Kop

Lucky2u (1): Aneninen

This wagon obviously looks like a counter to BBT. Assuming so, the other scum must have been there. Especially since Kop was on an off-wagon. (The other off-player was me. I'm town, but anyone could say that.) If I'm wrong here, Acryon is less scummy, because of appearing late on the BBT-wagon. (Rofl might have thought he had enough time to jump off in need.)
As for the SK-profile (if we do have an SK), any wagon would have fit them.

(2) Events.

Rofl's Naked vote for Lucky in 1007 was weird.

Yos went after BBT instantly.

Lucky claimed (1009) and soon he started to be suspected of being the SK.

I don't think the SK Nightkilled Lucky

.

KMD built up a case against Lowell in 1016. Having read it again I find this case cherry-picking knowing Lowell was town.

Rofl said in 1019

"bbt + kmd scum, lucky sk"

. Moved to BBT in 1025. This happened early on the wagon, so he may not be Mafia. This gameplay, on the other hand, doesn't rule out that he's SK.

KMD was trying hard to soft-defend BBT (or at least, knowing BBT was scum, it looks so). Eg 1030, 1032.

Acryon jumped in to vote for BBT in 1038. Unlikely Mafia, can't rule out SK.

Shadowez's 1041 might have been about slowing the BBT-wagon, although I too thought we should talk more before lynching. That's not a tell. His

"Lucky - if AI had been lynched instead of texcat, who would you have shot?"

was weird, on the other hand. What if he was testing the waters for Lucky's next Nightkill?

Rofl called KMD scum, eg. in 1044.

KMD's 1052, eg. the

"If he

[BBT]

is scum, so be it. I'll get lynched next."

is a kind of preemptive self-defense. As if he'd known what BBT would flip. (As if he's known what BBT will flip.)

This, from Lucky. 1053

"Between ABR or one of BBT and Yos to settle that debate."

– I didn't remember that. Did he Nightkill Yos?

BBT's 1060. Rofl:

"toffee is obvscum too though"

BBT's answer:

"You should stop this."

A "leave me alone, buddy" tell???

BBT's 1061.

"I'm really not sure how I feel about Kmd defending me despite not town reading me the last I knew."

– THAT stands out. A kind of "buddy, don't defend me in such an obvious way". In the same post:

"This game becomes infinitely harder when everyone is attacking me and I'm paranoid about the person who is defending me."

and

"Yeah, Kmd could be scum."

He was distancing, I suppose.

Acryon agreed with my 1069 in his next post. Null? (My post was pretty contentless, apart from the fact that I blew up some of my town credit.)

BBT's long posts, eg. 1082. Some of his thoughts: Lucky or KMD is scum, but not both. But later, 1092 it changed to this:

"I'm not interested in lynching rofl, Kmd, Anen or Yos... Both scum (& SK) are likely in Lucky, Shadow, Lowell, Acryon."

Votes for Shadow. It's lame if Shadow happens to be his buddy – or WIFOM. Mind the &SK part! Mafia

knows

whether we have an SK!

Rofl's still the same in 1084:

"my hypothesis hasn't changed. toffee + kmd scumteam. lucky sk."

Finally, KMD ends the Day with his hammer. (He was voting for Lowell before, that was a self-reminder.) I can see him do so as scum for two reasons. (1) Missing the BBT-wagon (which I would have joined later) could make his situation even worse and (2) ending the Day minimizes all the info we can get.

________

That's about Day2. Soon I'll go on with Day3.

BlueBloodedToffee (5):

Yosarian2

, roflcopter, acryon,

Lowell

, Kmd4390
shaddowez (1):

BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (3): shaddowez,

Lucky2u

, Aneninen

[Aneninen]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZAR! Can a Vig target self?

[Aneninen]

(3) Day3

Rofl's eintritt may be fake.

"lol eff me lucky really was town... and there's a serial killer?... sheeeeeeeeeeeit

(about 1113). If there's an SK, he could be the one, I suppose. He said KMD could be scum next, which is a thing I could agree easily.

As for Rofl's 1121. I could say that I was posting similar things in many other games as town (I mean, giving ideas whom should be investigated). But, actually he just proved that I'm

not

Investigation Immune. If I were II, why would I have suggested investigating

other players

? Maybe it could have made sense if I had succested my Mafia-GF-buddy... but there's only one scum left. Also, my suggestions (ABR and Yos) flipped town.
In theory, this makes it sure that I'm

not

Mafia-GF nor II-SK, which would make me less probably scum. In practice, and it's against myself, this way of thinking is a luxury we can't afford.

Shadowez's 1125 is a weird response. I don't know why, but it's weird. (Maybe because he was distancing from being a Mafia without distancing from being an SK? After all, he was away from the BBT-wagon and he was the second least active player on Day2.)

Rofl, this isn't going to convince you of anything but I'm better scum than to have kept you alive twice when you would have been my optimal kill. Unless you are a BP SK who thinks I shot you N1 or something.

What if

exactly that

has happened?

So here's where I'm leaning now:
-Shadow is SK
-Rofl or Anen is mafia

Rofl is

very unlikely

Mafia, just saying.
Also, it seems you just shuffled all those three names in your long post. Assuming Acryon's town. In this situation I can't feel sure about any of you. It's obvious, why. Although, I don't need "allies".

I find it highly unlikely we have an SK, and here's why:

Scenario 1: Scum, 2 vigs, 1 1-shot vig

- All the numbers match up. 3 deaths N1 (1 scum, 2 vig). N1 a vig dies, then N2 all numbers match up again (1 scum, 1 vig, 1 1-shot vig).

Scenario 2: Scum, 2 vigs, 1 1-shot BP, Scum shoots at SK

- All the numbers match up again, assuming that ABR killed Kop and the SK killed ABR. However, if the scum shot at somebody N1 and it didn't work, I find it more likely that they would have shot at that person again N2. Considering there was no SK kill D3, I doubt this happened.

Scenario 3: Scum, 2 vigs, 1 SK (BP or II doesn't matter), Scum shoots someone other than SK

- One of the factions would have had to not kill (or be RBed) in order for the N1 numbers to match. It's highly unlikely scum would have RBed ABR and killed him, scum wouldn't have killed one of their own, and Lucky already claimed responsibility for AI. Considering all that, it means that SK would have either been RBed, or not shot N1.

This is really the only scenario I can think of where having an SK at all makes sense, and I really think it's the least likely.

Isn't a No Lynch in our best interest today? Even if there is an SK, that puts us into LYLO tomorrow (possibly with just the SK). If there's no SK, it gives us an extra day and an extra flip to work with.

The speculation above has good bits but the conclusion is terrible.
You want us think there's no SK or you really think so?
KMD's anwser for that post is a thing I like.

Is anyone actually against a massclaim? If you don't all say so in your next post, I'll start.

I don't think it would help. Any scum could fake anything in this situation.
If we need, on the other hand, I can start. I know that won't help them.

________

As for Mafia. There are plenty of things against KMD, but there's a break in his posts at 1133. I mean, the latest posts are town-ish. But, if it's not him, whom then? Rofl is VERY unlikely, because of his votes. Shadowez is possible, especially because of his votes and inactivity on Day2. (Although I shouldn't bring the later thing up at all.)
As for SK, if we have one. Rofl's Day3 posts fit an SK-mindset, although I wouldn't rule out Shadowez. KMD is unlikely; He could have jumped on BBT much earlier, for example.

And Acryon still hasn't posted anything Today... until it happens everything is just sheer guessing.

But, there are still questions.
(1) Who the f--- killed Lucky? Definitely not the SK. He could have been a perfect lynchbait for SK-hunting. So, that must have been the Mafia-kill. Or is there another Vig?
(2) Did Lucky Nightkill Yos? (Referring to his ISO.) Why not KMD instead? Were I him, I would have done so. Unless... self-killing. (!!!)
(3) If so, why the SK or the other Vig Nightkilled Lowell? That Nightkill makes zero sense.
(4) And all the questions I asked before about Night1, the Setup...

[Aneninen]

Anen, what do you think about the theory that BBT was hinting at scum knowing Shadow was SK?

May or may not be so. By that

"Pay attention to what I said tomorrow."

he clearly meant something. But I'm not sure whether this. After the hammer he could have posted it in open too.

anen can you link any of your town games where you speculate like that about who should be investigated?

It's hard to remember every single game but a quick-search gave me two examples:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6521083
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6413954

pretty sure shaddowez is sk. the only reason for bbt to completely overlook the evidence all the rest of us were taking for lucky being sk in his whole smear-everyone campaign is if scum had hidden evidence of their own on an sk.

I'd call him only a possibility, and BBT's hint may mean something else. (I don't know what. Maybe another PR?)

the kills are weird. y'all are probably right that an sk would leave lucky alive. but yos makes too much sense as the mafia kill.

Why?
If so, there might not be an SK at all.

the kills are weird. y'all are probably right that an sk would leave lucky alive. but yos makes too much sense as the mafia kill.

Where did he hint that?

i still think we should massclaim

I'm willing to start if needed unless others have another idea. Then popcorn. Shouldn't we wait until Acryon posts?

[Aneninen]

why does yos make sense as the mafia kill? because toffee very nearly got him lynched on day one etc and no one was ever going to lynch him?

Could be.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZAR! Can a Vig target self?

~.Yes ~~~.Zar

Here's what I think then.

(1) Lucky simply eliminated himself. He knew noone would ever believe him and he would have been a perfect mislynch-bait for Today. If so, Mafia may have Nightkilled Yos (either becuse of the BBT-flip, or the Mafia thought he was the SK or a PR.) Then the SK may have Nightkilled Lowell. This latter one could tell us something.
(2) There's another Vig who Nightkilled Lucky because he/she didn't believe him. If Lucky didn't target anyone the situation is the same as above. If he did, none of the Nightkills make sense from him, I suppose, and there's a missing Nightkill again. So, let's assume Lucky didn't do anything.

Then why wouldn't I shoot Rofl last night? Eliminate the SK and the player who has been calling me scum all night.

Shyt. You could have targetted him once again. (Unless you thought the Nightkill failed for another reason, eg. Doc, town-RB... although you might have guessed at the beginning of Night2 that it wasn't likely. Unless you're GF, who knows the Setup contains 0–2 Ts. But that's empty speculation right now.)
You meant "all Day" with that "all Night", didn't you?

Unfortunately don't have time to post until Monday still, but I'll be ready to go then.

And I refuse to crystallize anything until that happens. It's a luxury to clear anyone in this situation who doesn't post. Even if there are scummier players than you.

Any problems with us massclaiming today?

I know it was for Acryon, but I've been thinking. It

could

help us in a certain situation, but I'm not talking about this before the claims.

[Aneninen]

I've checked and I found nothing useful in Lowell's Day2-ISO. (And I don't think his Day1-reads are too relevant.)
I found Lucky's crumb for Nightkilling AI. (649). Also a Lowell/ABR part. (I even responded to that, I think. 748.) He had quite a couple of scumreads during that Day1 (including me). Hadn't he targetted AI, he would have chosen between ABR/BBT/Yos. Nothing useful here as well, unless...

That's actually a good point. I'd be shocked if scum didn't kill Lucky tonight, especially if they are down to one member. This isn't exactly bad for town though even if Lucky flips vig because at least we don't have to deal with all of the WIFOM around him that way.

Good job giving scum a reason to leave me alive

Was that a decision from Lucky?

[Aneninen]

So are you a yes or a no?

Yes. We can massclaim. But I need to sleep now it's 0:30 am here.
If anyone insists I start, will that happen in the morning.

[Aneninen]

Where's everyone?

[Aneninen]

This thread needs more acryon and shadow.

Actually yes. We three, Rofl, you and me have been talking a lot. I can imagine you as Mafia very easily and Rofl as SK if there's any. But if I'm wrong and there's at least one scum in the Shadowez/Acryon pair, one of them/they only need to wait until we "eat up" each other. And that's what I don't want to see.
Shadowez's later posts don't change much. He's doing nothing but telling how unlikely there an SK is.

As for the massclaim.

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

I'm sick of talking about it while everyone's waiting for the others to claim instead of doing so.

I'm VT.

Popcorn Shadowez.

[Aneninen]

Assuming no Townie has lied, the Setup must be 2 Vigs; 2 Mafia Goons; 1 Mafia Roleblocker; SK.

I'll make a longer post later (hopefully tonight). Party because I don't have time right now, partly because I still need to think about what to post without giving ideas to the scums. A player profile (for the likelihood of being Mafia or SK, myself included) would be useful, though. I think.

Acryon, we need your reads.

[Aneninen]

Here are my assumptions to work with.

Night1
Kop, Mafia Goon, shot N1. –

Killed by ABR

Albert B. Rampage, Town Vigilante, shot N1. –

Killed by Mafia

AlwaysInnocent, Vanilla Townie, shot N1. –

Killed by Lucky

We have a missing SK shot. Either he didn't shot (for WIFOM?) or his shot is doubled-up somewhere. (All the players in are "he"-s, aren't they?) I don't think Mafia Roleblocked the SK or tried to Nightkill him (if BP) – in that case, they should have got rid of him at Night2 (they would have known that Lucky's Vig claim was real).

Night2
Lucky2u, Town Vigilante, shot N2. –

Killed by self

(see my logic I posted before)
Lowell, Vanilla Townie, shot N2. –

Killed by SK

(PoE)
Yosarian2, Vanilla Townie, shot N2. –

Killed by Mafia

(some of you had reasons for backing this up)

________

Also, the SK is either II or BP.
If II, he may try to look not

too

town; avoid too many direct fights (so as not to risk getting Nightkilled because of being un-lynchable).
If BP, he may try to look as town as he can; getting involved in scumhunting and picking up fights easily.

Most probably the Mafia doesn't know who the SK is. (Unless he Nightkilled Lucky, but why would Lucky have killed either of the other players???)

As for doubling-up.
Kop may have been a BP-SK shot, AI may have been an II-shot (getting rid of an un-lynchable player and/or framing someone because of that flip???). No idea about ABR. If he crumbed somewhere and the SK found it, may have been an II-shot. (?)

Having checked Lowell again, it wasn't too likely that he'd be Mafia with BBT. I mean, the BBT flip more-or-less cleared Lowell. So, that might have been an II-shot. (?) Or the SK might have thought Lowell was town-PR (???)

A big caveat

. In this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=59264 Heartless (TTH+Antihero) were BP-SK and they had been scumhunting all the time.

________

As for Day2.
TexCat was clearly a counter-wagon to BBT. It's possible that BBT suggested at the Mafia QT bussing him (although BBT dislikes bussing, I know that from Team Mafia). If so, ABR's Nightkill on Cop screwed it up for them. So,

just because of the wagon

we can't rule out anyone. (Being away is not a tell either then.)

________

I'll go on later, most probably tonight, with my conclusions. But now I need to go for a short while.

[Aneninen]

So, here comes my reads; from most likely to least likely. Briefly. I included myself too for making a full picture. + goes for things confirming my reads, – for against them. Should anyone have questions, fire them away!

Mafia

1. Kmd
+ Never been on the BBT-wagon. Starting the TexCat-wagon. Defeding BBT on Day2 and hammering him at the point when it was obvious he'd go down. Also, trying to build a counter-wagon on Lowell on Day2 (? Unsure, at that point BBT wasn't an obvious lynch.) He was hesitant to start claiming.
– Some of his later post which looked town.

2. Shadowez
+ Being on the TexCat-wagon. Never been on the BBT-wagon. Lurk-ish in general.
– What if BBT tried to send a message to his buddy that Shadowez might be the SK? (Although why didn't he do that after the hammer, in open?)

3. Aneninen
+ Never been on the BBT-wagon. Defending BBT on Day1. Saying that he was locked out of Day2.
– Never been on the TexCat-wagon. Kop was off the TexCat wagon too, and it's very likely that a counter happened with both of BBT's buddies away.

4. Acryon
+ Not much, but he may have bussed BBT on Day2. He was quite inactive on Day2, which might mean the thing I explained in my previous post. (BBT suggested in Scum PT bussing but Kop's death screwed it up, Acryon might have had no idea what to do.)
– Being on BBT on Day2, also, leaving the TexCat-wagon for BBT on Day1. If he's Mafia, he's doing it very well. ^_^

5. Rofl
+ Frankly, zilch.
– His gameplay makes absolutely no sense as Mafia.

________

SK

1. Rofl
+ His Day3-opening (including calling me the SK, although he changed his mind later). Focusing on Mafia (? I'm not sure about this), which might mean a BP-SK. Also, his 503.

"

i

am america and so can you...

v

ote for alwaysinnocent...

g

ood day"

– I thought that was a VIG-crumb (after that post I started to hard-defend him, you can check it). That would make perfect sense as Vig. (Although that post could be a coincidence, but its

content

is very off!) Suggesting Massclaiming but never starting it.
– His general activity. Picking up fights, scumhunting... but that would fit a BP-SK profile.

2. Shadowez
+ Speculating a lot about the existence of an SK. Also, his speculation doesn't add up. Very little content in general. Suggesting NoLynch, which would be a terrible idea now.
– One thing. This gameplay fits an II-SK profile excellently, but makes no sense as a BP-SK. (I must admit, my profile speculation might be wrong here.)

3. Acryon
+ A kind of mixture of "looking obv-town" and "avoiding direct fights". Also, Whiteknighting AI. His drop of activity on Day3. (That may have nothing to do with the game, but that's only his words.) Eager scumhunting may fit a BP-SK, the content drop may fit the II-SK. His 1181.
– Apart from certain posts like the one mentioned above, his posts look town.

4. Aneninen
+ Plenty of Day1 content and ending up on a Vanity Wagon. Whiteknighting AI. No content on Day2. (Also, something else and I'm curious whether anyone points that out. ^_^ )
– Rofl accidentally proved that he's not II (although that was said by Aneninen), which halves the chances. Defending BBT on Day1 and being away from his wagon on Day2 makes no sense as SK (could be assotiated with Mafia easily). General activity on Day3. (If Acryon's absense were confirmed somehow, these two names would change places.)

5. Kmd
+ Not much. Talking about massclaiming but never starting it.
– His gameplay makes no sense as SK, see everything I posted on the Mafia list.

________

So, the added scores are. (The lower the score the scummier the player is.)

Kmd – 6
Shadowez – 4
Aneninen – 7
Acryon – 7
Rofl – 6

My problem is, obviously, the following.
Shadowez fits both profiles and he's the scummiest, but he's

second

on both lists and we definitely mustn't lynch a townie right now.
Kmd's the most likely Mafia – but I can't imagine him as SK.
Rofl is the opposite. (Although, It's much harder to find an SK than to find a Mafia, I think, so he'd be a risky lynch.)

Yes, I've finished my post at this point intentionally. (Explanation may come later.)

[Aneninen]

I see, Rofl. But I'm so busy today that I don't have time to respond.
Mobilpost max. However, we still have more than 10 days.

[Aneninen]

anen can i tell you a secret about why my start of d3 posting looks so weird?
...
regarding 503, um... wow? if i were really going to crumb something (or fake crumb) it would be in order. also i wouldn't crumb that. also i am america and so can you is the name of a stephen colbert book so that line as as much relevance to the game as leeloo dallas.

Okay, I'm buying these for now.
As a non-American I know very little about Stephen Colbert, but yeah, whatever.

frankly if acryon is not town we lose the game to him, and it's not worth worrying about. the choice to me for the lynch today is between kmd and shaddowez, and i think the correct move today is to try to lynch the sk because kmd is so glaringly obviously the mafia.

I don't get this.
Catching the Mafia is easier because of interactive tells, which are missing in an SK-gameplay.

I hope we lynch shadow and he flips mafia lol. I think he's SK though.

???
That doesn't add up.
Besides, there are two scums. Why don't you have another suspect?

A couple of points:

• This is not my SK game. This is my SK game. (Note: It was a large and I made it to LYLO, so it's a long read).
  
• If I wanted to lay low on the SK argument, I wouldn't have said anything, not tried to keep arguing it. I didn't want town to waste time trying to figure out who was playing a role I didn't believe to be in the game (later clarified that I screwed up by not considering a double target).
  
• If 1186 isn't the most obvious "I'm the SK" post in the history of this game, I'm not sure what is.

Fffffffzzzzzzzzzzt.
I've done that kind of posts quite a lot of times as scum. (Links provided if needed, however, that would be the same kind of self-meta as Shadowez's.)
It's very unlikely that Kmd's the SK and I can't see any kind of SK-tell in that post.

anen i didn't start the claims because i didn't want to tip off the scum that they needed to claim vanilla

Although I've never explained why I changed my mind about the Massclaim (and strangely, noone has asked about that), but I see your logic here.

shaddowez who do you think is the mafia?

I'm honestly not sure. I'm going through ISO's and will hope to have something of substance later today (RT). Currently, I'm actually leaning towards you.

Rofl is the

least

likely player as Mafia. He may be SK though, but your whole Day3 gameplay,

especially

that 1190 tells me that you must be the SK.

Did you ever say why you're so sure I'm the SK you weren't sure existed coming into the day? Or are you hoping for the easy lynch and a kill on opposing scum tonight for the win?

Yeah, that one.

Now, I think Shadowez is SK and Kmd is Mafia. Normally (and I'm contradicting myself now), Kmd would be a better lynch.
BUT.
If we're wrong about Kmd (and it's possible), he's town.
However, if we're wrong about Shadowez, there's still a decent chance that he's Mafia. (See my logic in an earlier post; Rofl and Shadowez have changed places as SK-tips.)

VOTE: Shadowez

If we lynch town Today, we're most probably f-cked. So, if anyone has anything against this lynch, speak now!

[Aneninen]

Good point, Acryon.
Do you think I should unvote too?

By the way, and this is for everyone, if there are flaws in my post or whatever, point them out, I have quite a serious high temperature and it's hard for me to focus on anything.

[Aneninen]

Anen, I do have another suspect. Remember? I said it's between you and Rofl but based on meta, you're probably town so Rofl is most likely to be mafia? Speaking of that, did you ever answer when I asked why you don't think he'd bus BBT?

Yeah, that might have happened. See my comment above.
My greatest caveat against Rofl bussing BBT is the Nightkill of Kop. Also, after the second Vig-claim the Mafia must have known the Setup. (Either 2 Vigs, or Lucky is SK and there's another PR.) Or am I wrong about it?

[Aneninen]

So, Shadow was Mafia. Good. It would have been even better if he'd been the SK, though. In that case Kmd would be obv-Mafia. ^_^
Acryon's Nightkill wasn't a surprise. It was obviously either him or me. No matter how hard I try to conclude anything from the Nightkill (I mean, I'm still here and I suspected Rofl Yesterday, etc.), all I get is WIFOM.

[Aneninen]

Rofl? Where are you?

[Aneninen]

So when I got my night start PM (yes, SK, VTs get those too), I came to the thread saw shadow's flip and laughed enough that my one year old son ran over to me and started laughing too. Wish I caught it on video.

Why did you find it necessary to tell VTs get NightStart Messages too? Some mods sending those away regardless of alignment or having a PR. (I've even seen a mod who wanted a confirm-PM from everyone alive to be sure noone was flaking out.)
Why exactly did you find the flip funny? My thoughts about Shadowes were summarized in 1206, alongside the vote. Tell me more about your 1186.

Since nothing seems to be happening, here's a question for both of you. Let's assume that the

other

one of you is the SK. (Or me, from your point of view it's still possible.) What kind of SK do you think the other one is? BP or II?
I

do

have a goal with this question and I'll reveal it later.

[Aneninen]

Why did you find it necessary to tell VTs get NightStart Messages too?

Don't read too much into that. It just feels weird to me to get those as a VT but the more I think about it, the more I feel I probably shouldn't have included that. Technically, I could be SK who recieved it and asked the Mod if VTs did too. Let's just leave it at that.

I don't think I should mention it but I didn't like this answer. I could have liked a thing like this on Day2 or so, but not now. You wouldn't like it either if you were me, would you?

As for the other things, I'll respond when Rofl has answered my question.

Also, I wanted to ask something else:

...
If I was SK who was 1-2 lynches away from a win, I'd be anything but apathetic. Anen has actually seen me in that spot, but I was playing as an alt. I know self meta kind of sucks, but there is zero similarity between my play here and my play there where I pretty much wiped out the enitre scum team in a large open setup and survived to 3P LYLO.

...are you Egg? LOL!

________

Rofl. FYI, even if I haven't made my final decision yet, I think you're the SK. You've done LITERALLY nothing Today and that only strengthens my thoughts. Neither of us I think will put a stray vote on the other one just because of being paranoid about each other. If you're waiting for it, that won't work.

[Aneninen]

I've been thinking about this game and my biggest concern with you, Anen, is honestly just that you are still alive. I expected you to be the kill mostly because you did all of the work yesterday, but Acryon makes sense to because we were all townreading him.

As I said, my only idea is that it was an either Acryon or me situation and apart from plenty of WIFOM I can't conlcude anything else out of it.
As for the other Days. If my calculations are right (Mafia shot ABR, ABR shot Kop, Lucky shot AI and the SK shot any of the three above), I wasn't a priority on Day1 for any scum factions. No other thoughts there. After Day2, when I did literally nothing, both factions might have thought I'd be an easy mislynch later.
By the way, having thought about something and there are two pieces of information which can clear me for good if put together. But it's a paradox; if I explained it it wouldn't prove anything (since "self-clearing" could be a lie too).

Although he could just be waiting to see which of us is easier to sway. Or he could just be busy.

He hasn't posted anything on the forum since 4 days or so. I've just checked it.

Without him we literally can't do anything. If he's the SK, lynching him without his presense is not a kind of win I'd consider fun. If you're the SK, I can't lynch you alone so his absence would be simply detrimental.

Zar: Prod?

[Aneninen]

By the way, having thought about something and there are two pieces of information which can clear me for good if put together. But it's a paradox; if I explained it it wouldn't prove anything (since "self-clearing" could be a lie too).

I'm interested in hearing it anyway.

Eh, I know this sounds awkward but I realized it wouldn't confirm anything. I was thinking that (1) Rofl had acidentally proved that I couldn't be II, so if I were the SK I'd be BP and (2) in this case I'd have waited until my Mafia-read had built up a mislynch case – but you, my former Mafia read, joined the wagon I started and not vice versa. (Reason: after a mislynch I could have killed the Mafia whereas I could have blocked the incoming Mafia shot. Had Mafia Nightkilled anyone else, it would have been a win, else it would have been a LyLo. Unless there was a shot on me earlier.)
You needn't point it out that my Day3-gameplay would have made sense too if I were the SK. (Assuming in this case I must have thought Shadowez would be a mislynch.)
Also, by explaining this it's not only flawed but also over-complicated.

Without him we literally can't do anything. If he's the SK, lynching him without his presense is not a kind of win I'd consider fun. If you're the SK, I can't lynch you alone so his absence would be simply detrimental.

I mean if he's the SK, I'm not worried about what is fun. But it's 3p LYLO and lynching before he posts is just bad play. We need his perspective.

Definitely, as for the last sentence.
And it's obvious that I won't vote until he posts something. I think I've said this before.

[Aneninen]

leaning towards anen. kmd made sense as mafia not as sk.

Yes, I have the same assumption about you. But it's too little for now.

the mafia team had a much clearer picture of what went on with the nightkills than we do

Hooray.
Still, I'll work with my own assumptions. (Mostly taken from an earlier post of mine.) (1182)

Night1
Kop, Mafia Goon, shot N1. –

Killed by ABR

Albert B. Rampage, Town Vigilante, shot N1. –

Killed by Mafia

AlwaysInnocent, Vanilla Townie, shot N1. –

Killed by Lucky

We have a missing SK shot. Most probably it was doubled up somewhere. (Details if needed.)

Night2
Lucky2u, Town Vigilante, shot N2. –

Killed by self

Lowell, Vanilla Townie, shot N2. –

Killed by SK

Yosarian2, Vanilla Townie, shot N2. –

Killed by Mafia

Night3
Acryon, Vanilla Townie, shot N3 –

Killed by SK

Lynches

Texcat

– Kmd: ON (1st) – Rofl: Away – Aneninen: Away

BBT

– Kmd: ON (hammer) – Rofl: ON (2nd) – Aneninen: Away

Shadowez

– Kmd: ON (hammer) – Rofl: ON (2nd) – Aneninen: ON (1st)

That's and your ISOs are all the data I can work with. I might mis-assume things or whatever but the problem is that none of us have been hard-suspected during the whole game. No pressure, no partner assotiations no whatever. Still, mathematically said an 51% possibility is still a better thing than a coin toss.

I'll go on with posting later. (I have other things to do too.)

...So you would have pushed hard to lynch mafia and accepting a Shadow lynch makes zero sense. The same could really be said about me to a lesser extent. It's a lesser extent because I was probably next most likely lynch after Shadow and if I was SK, my lynch means a loss so I'd probably take my chances at shooting scum. Rofl never really expressed a mafia or not mafia read on Shadow that I can find because he was so set on me asmafia and Shadow as SK

I'll keep these in mind.

[Aneninen]

Yes, right now I'm working on your ISOs and trying to find out the answer for that.

By the way, I found something else!
Knowing that Shadowez was Mafia, BBT clearly wanted to clear him by accusing him in his 1092 and earlier. I mean, at that point he must have known he'd go down and everyone fighting against him might earn town credit. Knowing (suspecting?) Lucky was Vig too he might do so to save Shadowez from a Vig-kill plus a later lynch. But, this action is clearly worth pigeon poop with the SK around. So, it seems

Mafia wasn't aware of the SK at all on Day2!!!

[Aneninen]

So, let's see Rofl.

1. Named a Kmd/AI Mafia pair in 130. Repeating it in 134.
2. Said there were plenty of obvtown players in 131. No details on the topic!
3. Searching for an ally (BBT) in 166.
4.

"lowell, kop, shadow and toffee are all town"

in 173.
5. In 220 this:

"anen is right that he's investigation bait"

– yet he brought up those posts from me as "proofs" that I'm the SK. (At that time he was still after AI)
6. In 330 he called AI and Yos scums.
7. Lowell is town because of "seeing the things in a similar way", Kop is gut-town in 336.
8. Votes Yos in 346
9. Votes AI in 415
10. In 471:

"alwaysinnocent, always following onto bandwagons, never leading"

Rofl was doing quite the same...
11. I may believe that 503 was a coincidence, not a crumb.
12. In 596 he started scumreading BBT (he'd townread him before). He's moving with the crowd.
13. 772

"i'm around to hammer toffee otherwise i'm leaving my vote on ai and not really paying attention overall right now... scum can kill me tonight i won't even be mad"

– !!! Same following the crowd attitude. Also, he may be BP! (Now it sounds silly but it was Day1 and neither the town, nor the SK knew anything about the Setup then! I mean, there could have been Doctors, town-RBs etc.)
14. 881

"this 11th hour counterewagon on texcat looks pretty bad all around"

– no benefit for an SK saying that.
15. In 956 voted for BBT. (Actually he said BBT could be scum-PR, but that proves nothing as for searching for the SK.)
16. Not feeling the AI-wagon in 961... by the way, that wagon had been gone by then!

Actually he was moving with the crowd all the time, apart from the TexCat-wagon. This is a thing an SK could easily do. Hardly any interaction with ABR. Townreading Kop. Scumreading AI (but dropping the case later). By the way, AI put Rofl in the town pile, Kmd somewhere in the middle-lean-town, me in the lean-scum part.
Kop-Nightkill: could make sense, Nightkilling a townread (if BP). Highly possible.
ABR-Nightkill: neutral Nightkill, shooting an un-readable player. Possible.
AI-Nightkill: not a good Nightkill, losing a later-ally player. Not likely.

17. Moving to Lucky in 1007 – ?! He ended the Day with voting for BBT! This does make sense if he shot Kop but he didn't want to remove a Mafia.
18. Told that Lucky SK-slipped. 1012. Actually Lucky NEVER slipped, he CLAIMED Vig and we know he was telling the truth!
19. BBT and Kmd are called scum, Lucky SK in 1013, 1019. Not only distancing from the SK-role but also hoping a mislynch on Lucky? (Makes sense only if he's BP-SK.)
20. However, he moved quickly on BBT, 1025. This "wipes out" 19. (Unless he hoped Lucky could be lynched later?)
21. Attacking the BBT-Kmd pair in his later posts.

Not much here. He made his stand early on this Day. Beneficial for an SK; picking a couple of fights while being careful not to get too much enemies on the field. However, this whole Day makes sense coming from a town-mindset too.
No idea why he Nightkilled Lowell. Maybe he thought he'd be un-lynchable? Lowell did very little on Day2, so this Nightkill could be the least informative one. (If I'm right about it at all.)

22. From 1111 – this Day3-start can be a typical "well this s-cks" scumtell.
23. Reading Kmd as Mafia in 1114. (Although I thought the same. Perhaps null.)
24. Advocating Massclaim in 1115, but insead of going on with it (not even popcorning it to anyone!), he started that "Aneninen is II thing". (Actually that was a fail, he proved the opposite. Could be a search for a new lynch-target but could be a townie mis-speculating too.) Later he dismissed his "case" on me. (Maybe because he hadn't gained support.)
25. Meanwhile, there was this:

"did toffee block somebody's kill?"

(1119 – What sort of question was that?! Was he blocked? (However, this caveats my whole logic I'm using.)
26.

"acryon is still a firm townread"

– this may explain why Acryon is dead and I'm still alive. He might have thought I'd be an easier lynch later. However, 1138 contraticts this; he might have tried to buddy Acryon. (?)
27. Asks Kmd to claim in 1137. He didn't claim at that point. (Nor Kmd.)
28.

"i think the sk killed lucky, lucky killed lowell and scum killed yos who was the most obviously cleared by toffee flipping scum out of anyone

(1140 – where did that come from?
29.

"pretty sure shaddowez is sk. the only reason for bbt to completely overlook the evidence all the rest of us were taking for lucky being sk in his whole smear-everyone campaign is if scum had hidden evidence of their own on an sk."

– ! If anything, this may tell us that he was going for a mis-lynch! (1146).
30. In 1147 he was still talking about massclaiming. It still hadn't happened.
31. 1179 –

"kmd mafia, shaddowez sk"

– Well. I don't know whether my "adding the chances" scumhunting would trump a "going after the Mafia" strategy in a longer term, BUT it's clear that hunting down the SK would be a MUCH worse strategy than going after the remaining Mafia! I mean, if we're searching for a remaining Mafia, there may be interactive tells, votes, wagoning, countering, chainsawing, etc. Plenty of things. These things are pretty much useless if we're trying to find the SK. So, going after the SK would be a worse strategy from a townie... but going after a mislynch would be an excellent strategy from the SK himself. (I know this was a bit misty right now, but I wanted to be concise.)
In other words: he called Kmd Mafia but he NEVER intended to vote for him! Only for Shadowez, the SK-read!
32. Later posts show he might have believed Kmd was Mafia. Maybe he wanted to Nightkill him and hoping that Kmd would shoot someone else (or if him, blocking the shot?), but because of the SK-flip it didn't work. (Although I may over-speculate here.)

This Day, including the Acryon-kill makes perfect sense if he's the SK.

________

TL;DR. Although there are caveats too and, comparing to a "classical" case against a Mafia member, this whole post is quite "half-baked", there are still quite a couple of things which may tell me Rofl could be the SK.
Namely: 10., 12., 13., 18., 22., 26., 29. and 31.

I'll make a similar post about Kmd too.

[Aneninen]

So, let's see Kmd now.

Day1

1. Voted for Acryon in 38 as a "super secret scumread". Either a joke or ??? (The next post, 69 confirmed the first one. He also scumread AI there.)
2. An early townread on Shadow, 100.

"One, I'm looking for scum. Two, shadow is thinking along the same lines as me."

Pigeon poop. (Unfortunately, this would be a Mafia-tell not an SK-tell.)
3. Townreading Kop, Lowell and me (lesser extent) in 100. Scumreading AI and Lucky there.
4. Voting for AI in 201.
5. Picking up several interactions in his next posts. (AI, Yos, BBT mostly. Others too, including Rofl and me.)
6. Eg. 492. Here we can see plenty of interactions again, but with different players. So far it seems he tries to sort everyone out. Could be a genuine townie but, unfortunately, the SK needs to do the same too...
7. In BBT/Yos, he founds Yos better in 545. (I don't remember my own opinion at that point. Maybe I wasn't around.) He might have been moving with the crowd here.
8. Then he was missing for a while. Around 572. (If Rofl's recent missing is not a tell, this is not a tell either.)
9. Disbelieving AI's townslip. 683 and around. Also, mentioning it might have been SK-slip. WTF! He told in 698

"I personally don't consider SK until there is an extra kill."

– however, he was involved in talking about that SK-slip just before!
10. Kept talking about the same things later, eg. 714. (Either he Nightkilled AI because of thinking he was scum or wanted to frame him later as an SK? Both are possible.)
11. Launching the TexCat-wagon in 743. Pretty much out of nowhere. His reasoning came later (in 758). Having reread it it's still weak. I could see an II-SK here. (If TexCat flips scum, hooray, if not, he may get an Investigation for the push.) 766:

"I'm actually more confident she's scum now than I ever was on Always. And it's funny because in some ways Always makes perfect sense as a buddy with her and in some ways it makes no sense at all but that's a post-flip discussion."

Weak, weak, weak...
12. Ghhh, that "low hanging fruit" pigeon poop from TexCat. 765 and nearby. Actually I cared very little about that at that time but seeing it again... it was terrible. This makes the whole TexCat-story much less viable. (I mean, much less as an SK-tell.)
13. About BBT, in 814:

"The part of me that thinks he's scum is the paranoid part of me that knows he's a good player and that's shitty for a reason to lynch. If he's town, he's an asset and this setup has a possible cop so he could be confirmed if he's town and a confirmed town BBT could do some serious damage."

– It would be a brilliant tell... if we were searching for a Mafia. I can see no SK-reason for obstructiong the BBT-wagon and pushing the TexCat-wagon, unfortunately. Also, it's strange that he was talking about Investigation tips (on BBT) and Rofl only cared about my similar posts later.
14. No, cut it out, he said he would be okay with the BBT-lynch, 850. And Lowell too... Moving with the crowd? (Although he posted quite a lot of town-things about Lowell soon.)

That's Day1.
If he's the SK, he might have Nightkilled AI because he thought AI was scum. But. There were very few interactions with Kop and ABR and ...he wasn't sorting them either. If something, this might tell us that he Nightkilled one of them (so he didn't even needed to sort them). Although these are mere assumptions and neither Kop nor ABR had too many interaction partners.

Day2

15. That big 1016. Actually everyone was so obsessed with BBT that we missed the fact that Lowell really fitted the picture as scum. Could have come from a town or a scumhunting SK too. (Also, the more I think about it the more absurd it is that Lucky's claim could have been an SK-fake. Basically he signed his own death sentence with the claim. This has nothing to do with the game right now, though.)
16. Actually (1043) Kmd was NOT derailing the BBT-wagon actively. Maybe I think it know only because we know he's not Mafia. (? – Sometimes knowing the answer makes everything much clearer, I guess.)
17. 1052

"That info points to Lowell or BBT in my opinion. I chose Lowell. I am fully aware how bad I'd look if BBT flips scum."

– This would have been an unnecessary risk-taking as SK. I mean the whole post.
18. BUT, in the same post!

"Looking at dead players, I was right about ABR, but not confident in that. I was right about Kop, but again not very confident."

He posted twice about ABR (calling him town) and ...maximum half time about Kop (calling a post from him nonsense). So, that actually hadn't happened!
19. He starts moving towards the BBT-wagon 1101, which might or might not have been genuine. (Missing a scum-wagon would have hurt an SK too... although, hammering didn't change a lot.)
20. 1103

"I'd be shocked if scum didn't kill Lucky tonight, especially if they are down to one member. This isn't exactly bad for town though even if Lucky flips vig because at least we don't have to deal with all of the WIFOM around him that way."

– OhWTF! Did he kill Lucky? (Whom did Lucky Nightkill then?)

By the way, the Lowell-Nightkill makes perfect sense if he's the SK. (An attempt to remove the last scum, fits an II-SK profile.) There's a chance for a Lucky-Nightkill, see above.

Day3

21. 1127

"Rofl, this isn't going to convince you of anything but I'm better scum than to have kept you alive twice when you would have been my optimal kill. Unless you are a BP SK who thinks I shot you N1 or something."

– ??? Either a reaction test or distancing from the SK-role?
22. 1129. VCA, mixing the Shadowez-Rofl-Aneninen names in different patterns (who's Mafia, who's SK). Totally townreading Acryon. (So, he had the same motivation in the Acryon-Nightkill as Rofl did.) The ending is... Shadowez is SK, Rofl or Aneninen Mafia. Rofl ended up with a similar conclusion.
23. Being against NoLynch in 1134. I liked it and I still like it.
24. Talking about a Massclaim in 1136... but he didn't start it. Same as Rofl.
25. Crystallizing his reads in 1143 as Shadow and Rofl. (Still thinking Shadow is SK, though, see his next post.)
26. In 1155 trying to convince me that Rofl could be scum. This would be a perfect scummy post... again, from a Mafia. Shyt.
27. 1186

"I hope we lynch shadow and he flips mafia lol. I think he's SK though."

– this distrubs me. I can't put my finger on it, but it still does.
28. 1202

"Did you ever say why you're so sure I'm the SK you weren't sure existed coming into the day? Or are you hoping for the easy lynch and a kill on opposing scum tonight for the win?"

– this was an answer for Shadowez... it might have had a story behind but now I don't have time to find it.
29. 1220 – Self-meta. May have come from an SK but from a townie too.
30. I know this was Day4, but that 1229 seems to be "overdriven fake". I mean, it could be fake because there are too many emotions in it. Or how can I say.

________

TL;DR. There are some things here, too. Namely: 9., 11., 14., 18., 20., 27. and 30. There are some things which are common in both ISO-s (eg. talking a lot about massclaiming but not doing so). As for the ISO, a bit fewer things than they were in Rofl's ISO. If Kmd's the SK, I can see an explanation for all the Nightkills.
But, there are quite a few things which are weakening all the tells. Eg. Launching the TexCat-wagon for weak reasons might be a tell, but derailing an ongoing strong wagon is an anti-tell. Also, things like 12. takes out a lot of this story. Another example. 18. may be strong, but it comes from 17., which would have been an unnecessary thing from the SK.
And the final thing why I think Rofl is the SK. Kmd

got involved in plenty of 1vs1 interactions throughout the game

. Trying to sort out everyone can be faked, but

he has never gone for being popular or gaining town credit for anything

. Rofl's interactions were much more "impersonal", especially on Day1/Day2.

That's all I could do.
I think I'll vote for Rofl but I want to see something from both of you before doing so.

I'm not 100% confident but I think I'm choosing the bigger percentage. If not, sorry townies!

________

Post-edit.

Mod

, I don't think that post above this one should be there at all!!!

[Aneninen]

One last thing before going to work.

I know that NOTHING proves that I'm not SK. Unfortunately, all I can give you is self-meta. But, if you're interested in that, I've got quite a collection of town-LyLos and scum-LyLos. The latest one is only a couple of weeks old (a scum-LyLo).

[Aneninen]

"Disingenuous" ?
Is that all you want to say?
I might believe that you have very little time/chance to post. (Only because you doesn't seem to post elsewhere too.) We still have about 10 days, so we don't have to rush. But if you don't want me to vote for you, I'll need more. As a start, your opinion about my posts. My Kmd-post included.

[Aneninen]

Rofl, what you said is wrong on so many levels. Here are some of those.

I tried to work out a "cumulative chance for being scum" for every single player Yesterday. It's possible that there could have been a better strategy, but it still worked. Had Shadowez flipped SK (or town and there had been a cross-kill) I would try to find the remaining Mafia now. But there's an SK alive. It's that easy. If I were trying to build up a case against you regardless of anything, I wouldn't have ISOed Kmd at all. Besides, I'm not voting right now. Also, "building up my Rofl=SK since Yesterday" makes zero sense. For a while you were my No1 SK-read Yesterday but Shadowez made himself look more scummy and he ended up as a No1 SK-read and No2 Mafia-read.

If I'm wrong about you (which is possible), there are my ISOs I made. Show me why I am wrong about you and why I am wrong about Kmd.

This goes for both of you: we have about 9 days. Plenty of time for everything.

[Aneninen]

Kmd is in the prod zone too...

Alone at LyLo. It rhymes, at least.

[Aneninen]

Mobilepost.
So RC we meet again. Hi there.

I'll able to answer anything this evening at earliest.
I'm after blood donation now and off to work.

[Aneninen]

Soon.

[Aneninen]

So, finally some time.

Looking for a replacement for roflcopter

Scum giving up?
I mean, no attempt at all to determine who is scum. Just saying he doesn't think he can save himself and then gone...

He hasn't done anything on MafiaScum since his last post here and it seems this one was his only game he had been in. I don't think replacing out is an alignment tell.

I am town.
KMD is trying to push a lynch on town over complete garbage.

Why hasn't he voted for you yet then?

Wrong.
TSO, RadiantCowbells, Tiershift, Farside, Jaqen, Aneninen.
I've seen very agressive scumplay from all of those players.
About Yosarian, in general. I can't decide whether he's scum and I can't talk about it because of [ongoing games], but I think he's someone whom could be investigated at Night – and that will clear everything.

Whatchu talkin about me for?

Why is it relevant now?
I was only naming a couple of players who are generally aggressive as scum.

What the fuck. Of all the people who could have replaced in.
Give me a couple hours to consider whether I want to stay

Regardless of your alignment I seriously dislike the idea.
Regardless of RC's alignment I really don't understand why there are so many players who have a problem with him.

If you have a valid complaint against me raise it and I will consider replacing out.

This idea is not better either.

cuz 1269 feels less "omfg I hate rc" and more "why did we get a replacement who wasn't a pushover" and I'm not even close to considering replacing out over outrage that feels tactical.

???

Oh that was day one.
Still an odd comment.

That was Day3...

Adenine talk to me.
No links to previous posts. Why did you want to vote Roflcopter here?

I summarized everything about both of you. At that point there were more thing against Rofl than against Kmd. (Both of them could have responded my posts and it hasn't happened.) Your arrival may or may not change my opinion, it depends both on your posts and on Kmd's too, including his reactions to your content.

I don't replace out of games and I'll stay.

Good.

Going on soon.

[Aneninen]

shadow being scum makes it clear what he was doing. He started to panic when he saw that he was going to be lynched and came after me just because my interactions with BBT looked bad.

Actually your interactions with BBT weren't all that bad. I realized it after reading your ISO. Although, as I said, I might say this only because of knowing that you're not Mafia.

To be honest I was hoping this slot was in fact scum because scum 3p is easy.
Town 3p that I'm freshly reading is a gigantic pain in my ass particularly when I'm already on the back foot.

I can believe that town-RC would post this. But I know scum-RC would definitely post something like that.
Also, you didn't mention the fact that it's a 3-player-LyLo with an SK in, which is, I think, very different from a 3-player-LyLo with a group scum.
Plus, is there a reason for not asking any or both of us to summarize everything happened so far?

That's not the point. The SK would have wanted mafia lynched. Anen voted for a player who he didn't think was mafia, assuming his mafia reads were genuine reads. So basically if he's SK, he voted a town read when SK clearly needed a mafia lynch.

I know that I'm speaking against myself, but your logic is wrong. He was my top SK read at that time and my 2nd Mafia read.

Anen, this was your idea of what SK would do in a past game:

– he/she wanted to look medium-town but not pro-town. Firstly, being pro-town might have lead to their Nightkill. Secondly, a possible Cop investigation could have earned them some protection against getting lynched.

Why haven't you brought up anything similar to this here?

In that game it was known that the SK was II. Here, we don't have the same knowledge. I think an II-SK and a BP-SK would play quite differently. Thats'why I asked that question long ago and a pity that Rofl never answered it.

Actually, as I go back over that analysis, I feel Anen may have been misrepresenting just how not-mafia he was reading Shadow.

? Or was 1296 for that?

[Aneninen]

This is so stressful because I'm already on the back foot and I don't have any arguments to make right now.

That doesn't help me if you're town.
The fact that you're distancing from your predecessor – which means, if I'm right, you won't answer my long post about Rofl – doesn't help either.

But okay, let's try a different approach.

I think I've answered everything you asked so far. If not, point it/them out. I also posted a couple of things in my last posts. You could answer those.

You posted a couple of things about Kmd. These seems to be the most important bits:

KMD is trying to push a lynch on town over complete garbage.

cuz 1269 feels less "omfg I hate rc" and more "why did we get a replacement who wasn't a pushover" and I'm not even close to considering replacing out over outrage that feels tactical.

Anything to answer, Kmd?

Anen, I missed something of yours?

As I said, I hoped both you and Rofl would answer my long posts about you two.

In general, most probably I'm the one who'll pick either of you in the end, so it's no surprise that I'm trying to salvage as much info as I can. We have a replacement and it doesn't make the things easier. (Nothing personal, RC.) If I misvote, it's basically an instant loss.

[Aneninen]

Sorry, I'll post later; this evening or tomorrow. I've run out of time.

[Aneninen]

Some time, some catch-up.

Not much to say to those RC quotes, no. I don't think I've pushed any garbage obviously and if I was looking for a "pushover", I wouldn't be sitting here wishing we still had Rofl who is anything but.

Actually Rofl's Day3 was quite different from his Day2 and his very little content on Day4 was different from both of those. Although the latest one might have IRL reasons, too.

Why don't you think either of us will vote you?

I said "most probably", not "I'm sure".
Both of you said that you're leaning to vote each other.
From my point of view, one of you thinks the other one is the SK but is afraid to vote because if I were the SK, I would quickhammer. The other one is the SK, who doesn't want to vote because at that point I'd be cleared and the whole dilemma would be over. Even I know this is speculative, though.
Also, I offered my LyLo-self-meta, but there was no reaction, not even a "self-meta is pigeon poop" one. That suggested me that noone really cared.

Some relevant bits of your answer, Kmd.

2. Yep. In the early game I tend to like people who look at the same things I do. This would be true if I was SK as well though.
7. I had a hard time deciding on Yos vs BBT because they are both very good players. I had a slight lean towards Yos town and BBT scum for most of it, but always suspected people more than BBT.
8. If I'm "missing" it's usually because I'm at work. I do 16 hour days. Usually two or three in a row. And no internet at work. When I'm home in between I'm sleeping if I can.
9. There's different context. I don't go out of my way looking for SKs on Day 1 because it's damn near impossible to do. Always' "slip" wasn't anything, but the point was he could have been SK just as easily as town even if people did think it meant something. I know Always flipped town, but the whole townslip business was BS and it came from a player I was scumreading so of course I did everything I could to show why it's BS. Obviously, we know everything I could do wasn't enough but it's all for the best anyway considering he was town.
10. *shrug*. Maybe I'd have killed Always as SK, maybe not. Hard to say. In my last SK game I killed players who fit three criteria: 1. Could be scum, 2. Could vote me at some point, 3. Probably won't be lynched. I don't remember if Always suspected me (actually I think he did at some point) but he definitely fit the other two so I can't really disagree if you think I would have killed him.
11. I don't think my tex case was weak. It was strong enough to get five town votes.
14. If I was "moving with the crowd", would I have started the tex wagon or just jumped on BBT. Think about it.
18. Huh? I had few mentions of Kop and ABR because the reads were weak (not confident) like I said. Not sure what the issue is here.
20. I wanted scum to kill Lucky so we didn't have to sort whether he was vig or SK. Either one less mislynch or a dead SK. Win win. That would be the worst kill ever for a SK to make because he's the one distraction protecting them as a claimed vig.
Day 2: Sure, if I was SK, Lowell may have been someone I'd kill. Not Lucky though.
21. Neither. I legitimately felt insulted that Rofl thought I'd let him live if I was scum considering the way he was coming after me. It's easier to say "it's scum setting me up" or "stop with the WIFOM" than to argue with someone who is going to scum read you no matter what you say. That is a kill that would have needed to happen if I was SK or scum.
27: meh. I felt like we were screwed because everyone thought I was mafia so if shadow flipped town or SK, the game ends in a town loss just because everyone is so sure I'm mafia. It was basically me thinking out loud after I played out the scenarios and shadow somehow being mafia was our only hope. I think I mentioned this before, but when it actually happened all I could do was laugh.
30. Not sure why it feels fake to you so not sure what to say.

2. Could go either way then.
7. May believe that.
8. Yes, I know the situation. So, it's null.
9. We're never going to agree about that slip.
10. Self-meta and speaking against yourself more or less. I don't know what to think. Sometimes I'm speaking against myself regardless of my alignment.
11. Actually, yes. Although that doesn't help us now then. Rofl was away too.
14. That's true. Makes no sense as SK.
18. My issue is that you said:

"Looking at dead players, I was right about ABR, but not confident in that. I was right about Kop, but again not very confident."

– even with the "not confident" part, it's a kind of "changing the past". You hardly posted about them!
20. Okay.
21. May or may not be so.
27. and 30. And these still feel fake.

TL;DR: Some points are answered, some not. In general, I liked the post.

I don't have the energy to fight both of you right now.

Both of us?
I only need to fight one of you...

I don't have the energy to fight both of you right now.

Why the fuck even replace in with that attitude?

These posts don't help.

Need to go now; I haven't read the rest of the posts yet so this one is NOT a conclusion.

[Aneninen]

I didn't realize that you two were both pretty much already ready to lynch my slot.

There's not much I can say or do in a situation like that.

I think I've posted this before but here it comes again.
I want to get every possible information before I vote, and this includes your posts too. If we had a Mafia alive I could use much more things, eg. associative tells. Now, everything I have are the ISOs and this LyLo. Besides, I've never LyLo-ed against an SK before this game.

Well dude I'm fucking not Roflcopter.
I can't not distance myself from him because I'm not the same person, I don't know his motivations for doing what he did.
If you point out anything that you don't see any town motivation for I can probably try to clear it up; but it's the same as asking me to look for town motivation in any of the flipped town players because it didn't come from me. It's not really going to get us anywhere man.

Wrong.
Or at least, I usually search for town and scum motivation in others' posts. If it's possible to do so in case of another player, it's possible in case of a predecessor too.

Doesn't help that I replaced into a shitty position and am probably going to be blamed if town loses this, which seems pretty fucking likely at the moment.
I don't have the answers that you're looking for right now Adenine.

Where should I search for answers then? Reading the ISO of both of you again? Maybe I'll do so if I have time. But even if I do so, you'll only tell me that you're not Rofl.

If neither of you have realized that the other is scum, why are you expecting me to have it instantly?

Whut?

No, I'm stuck because the way you're trying to engage me in the game is through walls of text referencing 50 pages of content that I haven't all read.

No, I'm talking to you. Not to Rofl.

I am town.If you're town and you can't communicate on my wavelength and I get lynched I'm probably the one who gets bitched out for it but you still lose as well.I feel like you're talking at me and not talking to me.

Nah. This feels very AtE and I should probably ignore it but if you're town and get lynched, Anen just played better than the town and deserves the win. I won't be playing the blame game in that case.

Eigh.
I just can't decide which one disliked I more, the post or the answer.
RC, I'm trying hard to talk TO you.
Kmd, that logic is simply bad if you're town.

You're not talking to me.
You're making a show for Adenine.

Wait-oh.
At that time I wasn't even around. If you posted that, it means... you knew well that I'd read everything thoroughly. As if you knew that I couldn't be the SK.

Like the difference between you and Adenine right now is that you're trying to imply that it's scummy that I don't have a full understanding of all the material in this game and that he's annoyed and/or frustrated by it but is trying to sort me based on what he's able to.

This is actually true...

If this is just going to continue then if we're both town there's no way we're winning together.

And this is just as bad as the thing I quoted from Kmd above, for the same reasons.

I don't feel like summaries of a game ever quite do them justice. If you are willing to go ahead and try it might be helpful though.

Do you still need that? Or, which is faster, I can link some of the relevant posts. As a matter of fact, I'd summarized plenty of things for myself before you arrived.

Well, go back and read it. Even if you didn't mean for it to come off that way, tell me it doesn't sound AtE. And of course it's difficult. You are in a spot where the only way to contribute in a meaningful way is to do a shit ton of reading first. It's what you signed up for when you replaced into a game with approximately 50 pages. You had to know it's not easy, but I'd assume it's what you were looking for when you told Zar you'd do it.

Actually Zar posted this in the Replacement Thread:

Day4, 51 pages

. This told nothing about the game state nor the Setup, etc.
RC, had you read anything out of the game before replacing in?

[Aneninen]

Wait-oh.
At that time I wasn't even around. If you posted that, it means... you knew well that I'd read everything thoroughly. As if you knew that I couldn't be the SK.

I did state around the same time that I was close to ready to vote KMD, yes?
That should make it pretty clear where I'm at.

Okay. I see your point.
I've felt that as town before, although I've already posted things like that as scum, too. So, that's null in itself.

Anyway, I feel like Adenine's last was incredibly self serving because of how it was designed to coax out claimed townreads of him

I don't really get this. Especially together with the other one I quoted here.
All I want to do is to see the mindset behind both of your posts.

[Aneninen]

VOTE: Kmd4390

I'm sorry, guys. Our WinCon haven't matched.

Don't blame yourself, RC!

[Aneninen]

Thanks for modding, Zar!

Good game, everyone!

So... basically I was insane lucky because Mafia shot ABR. I never thought he had targetted me. Despite everything, I'm content with my gameplay, since this has been my very first SK-game... Mafia was seriously out of luck, on the other hand.

RadiantCowbells, as I said, you don't have to blame yourself. You were in a terrible situation. Still, something has been paid back. ^_^

[Aneninen]

Reflecting to the flavor, trust me, my "rule" won't be that bad. Peace, happiness, tolerance and everything. Although, there is one thing...
...Prepare for an insanely huge pigeon statue set up at Town Square ^_^

By the way,

Zar

, the Dead PT is not available.

[Aneninen]

Interesting Dead PT indeed!

ABR

, I don't know what you saw in my game, but it's interesting, because... hardly had the Day started I simply forgot that I was the SK and started scumhunting as if I had been town. So it must have been something very early thing or something even I'm not aware of or coincidence. This, actually makes everything even more f-cked-up.
Also, I don't think I was a genius SK, I was very lucky at Night1 – I'm content only because this was my very first SK game. And I would feel the same if I had been caught. I have no idea what Rofl would have done, though. He never posted a real case against me.

AI and everyone

: it's interesting to see how obvious everything can be once you're out of the game. I remember having the same feeling before...
By the way, I got genuinely locked out of Day2.
From Day3, I simply exploited everything had happened, no matter had it been good or bad.
Rofl started to scumread me? Okay, I'm talking about the single thing that I can't be II.
Noone started the massclaim? Okay, I'm losing my nerves, launching it and accusing everyone for not doing the same.
Everyone is against Shadowez without voting for him? Okay, I'm starting the wagon and pushing it to lynch? If town, good. If scum, also good.
But yes, the biggest surprise was that the "Lucky shot himself" pigeon poop held water. There was hardly any speculation about the Nightkills, so why not jumping in front with something really confusing, based upon entirely false assumptions?
And the worst part is... I still don't know how an SK could be played well...

Yos

, sorry. I thought you'd been town-PR.

[Aneninen]

Lucky

, you shouldn't feel bad. Firstly, shyt happens. Secondly, you're still better Vig than I am. As Town-Killing-PR the only case when I did no harm to the town was the one when TexCat Roleblocked me. (So far I've Nightkilled a Cop-cleared townie, provoked my own lynch to wipe out a townie as Vengeful, Loverized myself with a townie before my own lynch... Frankly, I seriously think whenever I draw Town-Killing-PR, town should get a bonus PR as a compensation. ^_^ )

As for the SK-Pregame-Choice.

It seems I'm not the only one who thinks choosing Investigate Immune simply doesn't pay off in this Setup (and this goes for JK9+ too). The chance is very high that there's no Investigative PR out there at all, so what's the point?
Although, removing the choice would narrow the SK-gameplay possibilities. I guess, a BP-SK should try to look pro-town and play very active that's all... shouldn't they?

In the Setup I designed (Matrix–14), after its first and so far only try Vettrock (the Mod) and me agreed to change the SK-choice to this: before each Night they can choose between being BP or II. Maybe a similar choice with a modification – the SK is

still

1–Shot BP and doesn't get informed whether their ability is gone – could do the trick. Or maybe the same for Investigation? (The

first

Investigation results [Not Guilty] assuming the II has been chosen but all the others result [Guilty].)

Opinions?

[Aneninen]

Oceanwind: ABR doesn't seem to talk about it for some reason. (Although whatever he saw it must have happened very early. Not talking about it ingame made sense knowing he was a Vig.)

RC: You were in a terrible situation and obviously, I didn't help you at all. Basically, the same goes for Kmd too.

AI: Rofl shouldn't be blamed, too. We don't know what happened to him IRL.

________

Also, are there opinions about my thoughts, as for the SK-Choice?

[Aneninen]

He tried to Nightkill me for some reason.