Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER
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OceanWind
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In fact,
UNVOTE: KTthecreeper
VOTE: Lowell
That case on KTthecreeper reads fake. Paying more attention to oneself is a natural human tendency. Regardless of KTthecreeper's alignment, he's obviously going to notice when his name is mentioned and react to it. What does it matter that he ignored other RVS votes placed on other players?
I voted KTthecreeper initially for entirely different reasons - his reactions to being voted looked awkward and stilted.
But Lowell pushing a case after a wagon already formed based on non-scumtells feels like he's either taking advantage of a young player's awkward opening to look like he's scumhunting (or pre-emptively bussing thinking that KTthecreeper may not be the type to survive the game). Lowell presents his case as though townies care about every RVS vote cast on everyone and that people don't naturally gravitate towards mentions of themselves.
Sidestepping my question with a fake-dayvig attempt doesn't help.-
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In post 37, ChurchOfMercy wrote:OceanWind's defense of KT is pretty scumtastic.
Where did I defend KTthecreeper?
I'm not sure if he's town or mafia. I find Lowell scummy regardless.-
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In post 49, Nosferatu wrote:yeah I also hadn't read your post. Get over yourself.
Assuming you just now remembered this game, why throw down an RVS vote as opposed to offer your thoughts on the non-serious content in the thread?
In post 54, Lowell wrote:Magna is going to be annoying as hell, but, unfortunately, is town.
Going to need an explanation for this one. He reads null to me.
1. Do you think Lowell's townread on you makes sense?
2. Why didn't you follow up on your previous question to Lowell?-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 66, Imperium wrote:In post 35, OceanWind wrote:That case on KTthecreeper reads fake. Paying more attention to oneself is a natural human tendency. Regardless of KTthecreeper's alignment, he's obviously going to notice when his name is mentioned and react to it. What does it matter that he ignored other RVS votes placed on other players?
Paying more attention to yourself is a pretty common scumtell (playing for survival instead of playing to find scum); the only way this case works against Lowell is if you think that he is both aware of that tendency and that it would factor into his reads while pushing a page 2 read. I don't really think this is the case.
It's not that KTthecreeper is "paying more attention to himself," it's that he reacted when his name was brought up/he was voted during RVS. He didn't react when other people were voted. I don't find that unusual.
Lowell is applying "common" scumtells without considering why it matters in this specific case. Why would he expect KTthecreeper to react to all RVS votes instead of just the one on himself? Lowell joined the site in 2006. I'd expect him to be aware of such tendencies.
The scum motivation I see here is two-fold. If KTthecreeper is town, Lowell pushing an early wagon to make him react badly (and clearly KTthecreeper is naturally "scummy") and potentially lynch him. If KTthecreeper is mafia with Lowell, Lowell probably deduced that he was an early lynch and got in on the action with a big case so he could take credit for the lynch or is simply distancing.
Icouldsee potential town reasons why he would push it but if that's the case, I want to hear it from him so I can dig further.-
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In post 82, Imperium wrote:KT is town.
This was my initial reaction as well, but I've played with him before and his play as town was a lot different although he wasn't under pressure then. I also followed a game where he was mafia and he did very well emulating the lost, confused townie act. So, I'm waiting to see how he actually pushes his reads.
By the way, I think we played together briefly. You're the same Nachomamma8 that was in that multiball game offsite where you were a governor?-
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In post 95, Ollie wrote:24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down?
Why is it scummy that he came back an hour later to vote?-
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That previous quote should have been attributed to Nosferatu.
I agree that Ollie's terminology ("try-hard scum") seemed out-of-place so Ollie should explain what he meant exactly. KTthecreeper seemed long winded and awkward but it didn't strike me as him "trying too hard." I don't think that Ollie waiting for an hour to vote has any significance.
As for Nosferatu's vote on Ollie, what I want to know is why you didn't explain your vote and talk to Ollie when he asked you for your thoughts. Why did it take me accusing you of RVS voting before you explained it?-
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Yeah, I read that post. His question was pretty general:
In post 57, Ollie wrote:Nosferatu what's your take on what's happened so far?
This might have been a good time to engage your then top suspect by pointing out why you voted him rather than answer completely literally that "nothing happened."-
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In post 104, Nosferatu wrote:might've been a good time, but who knows? Cause I didn't.
I'm aware you didn't. My question was why?
In post 105, Nosferatu wrote:what's your angle on this question? Once again, if he asked me if I found anything scummy, I would've talked about my vote. If he or anyone had said anything about my vote I would've explained it.
So, if you no one asked you about your vote, you'd have been happy to let people assume it was an RVS vote and move on? You cast a naked vote that could easily be mistaken as an RVS vote. Why does someone need to ask before you explain it? The one reason I could see for putting down naked votes is to get a reaction from the person you voted. You got that. Then you answered his question literally rather than use it an as opening point to scumhunt, ask him if he knows why you are voting him or question him further.
My "angle" with the question is I want to know why you are not pro-active and need to be prompted by others before you expand on your vote.-
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In post 124, Nosferatu wrote:OceanWind wrote:@Nosferatu - how much of the game had you read when you made your first post?
there's no way it was past 40
Is there a reason you specifically stopped short of reading the three posts before yours?-
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In post 126, Nosferatu wrote:It can't be past 40 because I didn't reload the page to see the most recent posts. The only posts I would've seen are the ones made before 8:40.
Okay, walk me through your timeline. The reason I'm asking is you apparently caught up with the game before you posted but missed MagnaOfIllusion's post calling you out and said that it had nothing to do with the timing of your post which I'm skeptical about.
1. If you opened up the last page before 8:40, that means it took you an hour and twenty-five minutes just to read the last page. Why did it take an unusually long time to read fifteen short posts?
2. You also responded to him by saying that you were posting in other threads. That's actually not true. You made one post in another thread two hours before your first post in the game this morning and your posts before that were last night.
3. How do you remember the exact time that you opened up the last page?-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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So, re-reading everyone's ISO's, the only thing Acryon has done is push KainTepes as a policy lynch and respond to non-game-relevant stuff like who the initials KT should refer to. Probably mafia.
Bellaphant's ISO is okay but for a couple of things: 1. Unvotes her RVS vote out of nowhere and doesn't revote. 2. Hedgy language regarding Ollie and KTthecreeper.
ChurchOfMercy is probably my best bet for mafia right now. Very minimal posting with no serious content. I've followed I think two or three games by now containing Albert B. Rampage and he always has more passion as town.
Implosion's content seems okay. No pings in any posts. I disagree with the push on Ollie but Ollie's most townish posts came after the vote there.
jmo16mla is probably town. From the few posts he made, he picked up on the same things about Lowell that I wanted to ask about (that quick townread on MagnaOfIllusion) and I agree with his perspective of Lowell's case as well.
I'm of two-minds on Killthestory because their posting seems free-flowing and unrestrained. But I'd rather not give her a pass on it before seeing some solid content. It's easy to fake as mafia if you don't actually care about the game. I do understand why some people townread her though.
KTthecreeper said several hours ago that he's going to read the thread and offer thoughts. Still waiting on it.
Re-reading Lowell's ISO, his lack of answering any questions directed at him is annoying but I like his pointing out that Church Of Mercy might be mafia and that killthestory might be town.
I'm leaning very slightly town on Nosferatu now. I disagree with how he handled Ollie's and my questioning of him but the way he dug his heels in and kept defending his point leaned town. Maybe. But I still have my eye on him.
I'm pretty sure Ollie is town.
UNVOTE: Lowell
VOTE: Church Of Mercy-
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In post 160, MagnaofIllusion wrote:HeyOcean– why is it that you’ve read everyone’s ISO at 143 and yet I don’t see any mention of me at all in your reads list?
I seem to have missed you. I liked the early attack on Nosferatu + the rest of this post. Probably town.-
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In post 176, acryon wrote:I didn't actually really read anything between my earlier posts and 91. I skimmed since I had a minute to jump on at night (which I rarely do. Feel free to check my entire posting history and see how many times I post >5PM if you're curious) and wasn't about to read a bunch of back and forth but was willing to respond to a direct question.
Ugh I want to vote you very badly, but I fear you may just be overeager town.
Assuming this is true, did you really expect anyone to check your entire posting history, realize that you don't post after 5PM, and therefore that you skimmed and answered a direct question? The fact that you don't see that the suspicion of you is reasonable is more scummy than your play up to that point.-
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In post 203, acryon wrote:No of course not, but I will continue to stand by the idea that looking at my 6-post ISO and being suspicious is very stupid. There are real things to talk about and be suspicious of in the game of mafia; someone who has literally only posted 6 times and within a period of 12 hours is not one of them.
The fact that you ignored those real things and pushed a policy-lynch commented on irrelevant things is what I (and I assume others) found scummy. You acknowledge that we can't be expected to know that you weren't caught up with the game. So, I don't get why you overreacted and started calling people stupid/scummy rather than understanding the suspicion but pointing out that you weren't following.
Frankly, I find your policy-lynch proposal as a bizarre way to kick off the game. But if you were not being 100% genuine, why is your first instinct to call everyone who found you scummy for it stupid? Wouldn't that be the natural reaction of townies to something ingenuine?
In post 251, acryon wrote:Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.
1. How was Nosferatu on the backfoot? I'll need to check but the only person I remember commenting on their interaction was Imperium and he took Nosferatu's side and voted Ollie. I could maybe understand if you were accusing me of defending a player under pressure to get on his side but this is just weird.
2. Town are more pro-active on average because they need to not only avoid getting lynched but to read other players and lynch correctly to win. Mafia are much more likely to be reactive than town. They only need to survive to win. Nosferatu's early play fit this profile as he seemed content to stay below the radar casting a vote and not taking opportunities to engage and refine his read.
3. By your logic, everyone that takes a side in a two-way conflict is suspect is "piling on?" How do you differentiate between my suspicion of Nosferatu and your own? Aren't you by your definition "piling on?"
In post 215, Imperium wrote:In post 143, OceanWind wrote:jmo16mla is probably town. From the few posts he made, he picked up on the same things about Lowell that I wanted to ask about (that quick townread on MagnaOfIllusion) and I agree with his perspective of Lowell's case as well.
Is this a significant read if Lowell is town?
At the time, I liked his posting. But jmo16mla has so little content since then and overall in the game that it's not a read I'm happy about yet. So, I'm not writing him off as town.
On your read on KTthecreeper, I like your explanation but I'd be more convinced if KTthecreeper had actually followed up on his promise to read the thread and post thoughts.
What is your read on Ollie now?
In post 223, Bellaphant wrote:@ocean, I'm curious as to your responses to 215. Also, do you have any questions for me?
Did you check out Ollie's games that he linked you to? What did you find?
In post 249, ChurchOfMercy wrote:Lack of engagement isn't scummy.
It's actually one of the most ridiculously accurate tells I've seen - a fairly significant percentage of mafia players tend to be much more active and involved as town than as mafia.
Saying "I'm useless D1" isn't an excuse. Everyone's reads get better as the game progresses but that doesn't mean we don't try on D1.
In post 253, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I’m not thrilled with his response which was “Meh, forgot you … you are Town” - smells of appeasement.
I don't have an issue with you asking me about why I left you off the list. But having a townread in not appeasement. If I was townreading you, why would I say anything else?
Also, I don't really understand what your issue is with Acryon saying that he is hard to lynch but that people might have attacked him thinking he was low-hanging fruit because he hadn't done much of anything in the first few pages.-
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Reading through MagnaOfIllusion's and Acryon's arguments on the current page, I'm actually agreeing with Acryon more than MagnaOfIllusion. The latter calling my post where I called him town "appeasing" was ridiculous and smacks of "look at me, I'm accusing people that are townreading me." I also thought Acryon's point on low-hanging fruit was fairly straightforward. He says he's not but he might be perceived as such based on early play. So, I have no idea why MagnaOfIllusion is incapable of understanding it after several explanations. I still want my own concerns answered but I'm less suspicious of Acryon than before.-
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In post 268, acryon wrote:No. It's still absurd. I have literally never one time seen someone comment on someone's content/activity when they had literally been a part of the game for less than 24 hours, and there's a good reason for that.
The thread was open for a little more than forty-eight hours and there was quite a bit of content by then. Why shouldn't you be expected to post relevant content?
In post 269, acryon wrote:1. In the 1v1 between Ollie and Nosferatu it was very clear who was on the backfoot.
2. Exactly. Part of being town is being pro-active so as to avoid getting suspicion and getting lynched, same as scum. Town may have other reasons for doing it as well, but they're both trying not to get lynched, so I don't think you can say one is more pro-active than the other. If it were, the game of mafia would be a lot easier.
3. No, because if I were to engage Nosferatu, it would be separately. You jumped on in the midst of a 1v1. What's your goal there?
1. I don't see how you are interpreting Ollie to be on the backfoot here. They were both arguing and providing their own reasons for why the other was mafia. Imperium had posted a few posts ago whole-heartedly agreeing with Nosferatu and voting Ollie and was the only person to comment. Ollie was the one in the spotlight with Nosferatu leading the attack on him.
2. That's sort of the point of playing the game though. Mafia do try to act like town but may not always succeed. Finding the cracks is how you develop reads.
3. 1v1s are not some separate entity shielded from the rest of the game where no one may comment until it ends. In fact, those types of 1v1s that nobody else is engaged in are often highly unproductive. The best way to progress the game is for other people to pitch in and take stances.
In post 272, acryon wrote:To elaborate, I think if your goal was to gain a better understanding from Nos, doing it while they were clearly already in defense mode isn't really the right time, because it just felt like you beating a horse in the process of dying. See 99. I may be making a bigger deal out of this than I should and may not have quite the evidence to back it up, but it was my first inclination when I read through.
It was relevant at the time. I'm not going to act like they were engaged in an exclusive duel and wait my turn until they are finished. Icansee the potential scum motivation in picking a side when two townies argue so I understand your argument. But I also don't think as town, you need to "wait it out" before pitching in. In fact, when people are under pressure from multiple angles, their reactions may be more informative than if everyone ignored the argument and let those two battle it out.-
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In post 273, OceanWind wrote:1. I don't see how you are interpretingNosferatuto be on the backfoot here.-
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In post 281, Nosferatu wrote:If you thought I was scum with Ocean in this case, I'd think you'd go for Ocean first here, since he was who you were talking to first. But you diverged from your 1v1 with him to start this interaction here.
You lost me here. What's scummy about "diverging" from his conversation with me to vote you? This reads almost as if you want me and Acryon to continue arguing with each other as opposed to with you. If he thought you and I were mafia together, why do you think he should continue pushing me as opposed to you? Just because he was already talking to me? If so, at what point would you expect him to go after you if he thought you were mafia too?
In post 304, ChurchOfMercy wrote:You're pretty clearly equating post count with townieness, and that says that you're either Scum trying to make a phony case on me, or that you don't know the difference between a low-volume poster and a lurker.
If someone doesn't post at all (KainTepes, SeshatX), it doesn't say anything about their alignment. They seem to have flaked from the site and have been replaced. If someone is posting the bare minimum needed to skate through the game while staying under the radar, that's a lot more scummy than just not posting outright. I'm not strictly equating post count with towniness - you have a pretty high post count actually - but very little in-depth content. You voted KainTepes for posting elsewhere but not here which is fair. Then Albert called the scumteam as "Imperium, KillTheStory, and one more." Then you vote Jim out of nowhere for posting a GIF. There's no stream of thought or evidence of scumhunting behind the scenes.
I'd appreciate if you elaborate on your reads list in 325 a bit more. Why is KTthecreeper town simply for being low-hanging fruit? Low hanging fruit have just as much chance as anyone of drawing a mafia role. I'd also like to hear your updated read on Jim after the content he posted.
@Bellaphant -I agree with most of your reads in 291 but a few follow-up questions:
1. Acryon is right that many were a rehash of the general consensus. Can you elaborate as to where in the 1v1 between Acryon and Magna, you found the former inconsistent.
2. You say that Lowell is mafia for not pushing his reads. You have also not been "pushing" any of your reads currently. What's the difference between what you are doing and what Lowell is doing?
3. I don't understand your read on MagnaOfIllusion at all. You call his initial push dumb but say he "improves" even though you find it hard to follow his points. Can you explain at what point you started reading him as town and why?
4. You say that Imperium is asking the "right" questions. What questions are you referring to? Also, you asked Imperium for their thoughts on two players that you seem pretty sure are town. Why?-
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@Jim -in your catchup, is there a reason you glazed over the argument between me, Nosferatu, and Ollie?
In post 346, Jim wrote:I am currently viewing Imperium and jmo as relatively firm townreads. Oceanwind and Magna are leaning to that direction as well.
1. You place a lot of emphasis on MagnaOfIllusion's opening. You criticize him for going after Nosferatu. You call him out for not taking a side in the "KTthecreeper/Lowell" debacle. to the point where you are even making notes on who to look at if he flipped mafia. You also criticize three of his posts. How did you come to the conclusion that he was leaning town? For reference, here's everything you said about MagnaOfIllusion:
Spoiler: Jim's thoughts on MagnaOfIllusion
So, in your mind, he made one good point and several questionable ones. How did you wind up with a townread here?
2. Is your read on Imperium dependent mostly on KTthecreeper trying to appease them? What would your read be if KTthecreeper is town?
3. You respond to jmo16mla's Post 62 by saying that you are leaning more green on him. But in your next post, he becomes a firm townread, how? He only made two posts in between (179, 206). Are you happy enough with jmo16mla's content so far that he's one of your top two townreads in the game?
4. Is Acryon heavily in the read purely for saying that he has never been lynched D1 in what you perceive to be an "intimidation tactic?"
5. Why is only one of Ollie and Lowell mafia? Why are you leaning towards it being Ollie? Why does an Ollie scumflip clear Bellaphant?-
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In post 405, Jim wrote:In post 403, OceanWind wrote:3. You respond to jmo16mla's Post 62 by saying that you are leaning more green on him. But in your next post, he becomes a firm townread, how? He only made two posts in between (179, 206). Are you happy enough with jmo16mla's content so far that he's one of your top two townreads in the game?
I meant town when I used the term green.
I know you meant "town" by the term "green." My question was that you were only "leaning green" on jmo16mla but once you are done with the list, he becomes one of your top two townreads despite the fact that he faded out of the game since the post you mentioned and only made two posts. Also, my other question still applies: Are you happy enough with jmo16mla's content so far that he's one of your top two townreads in the game?
In post 405, Jim wrote:In post 403, OceanWind wrote:4. Is Acryon heavily in the read purely for saying that he has never been lynched D1 in what you perceive to be an "intimidation tactic?"
He was more leftover and thrown in where I felt he fit.
You don't have townreads on most of the game to use process of elimination. So, why does a "leftover" read fall "heavily into the red" as opposed to being null?
In post 405, Jim wrote:In post 403, OceanWind wrote:5. Why is only one of Ollie and Lowell mafia? Why are you leaning towards it being Ollie? Why does an Ollie scumflip clear Bellaphant?
Upon reading back, I realize I was mixing up people. That being said, I need to rearrange some of my list. It's Ollie and Magna, and the reason is because they were using the same strategy to approach the game, where it makes sense for one to be scum but not both. Ollie just stuck out more in my head, and the reason it clears bellaphant is that preliminary interaction between the two of them, Bellaphant's pestering about KT I believe it was? That looked a lot like Ollie catering his posts to what Bellaphant was asking.
Okay, so if you mixed up MagnaOfIllusion and Lowell, then you have a leaning townread on Lowell (because that's where MagnaOfIllusion was in your list). Why is Lowell leaning town? The only time you've mentioned Lowell is to argue with him about his townread on MagnaOfIllusion.
What strategy are you referring to that MagnaOfIllusion and Ollie are using? Is it that they are calling out lurkers? If so, why is it unlikely that they are both mafia doing it? What about Ollie stuck out to you specifically?
Yes, please do post an updated list of reads - preferably an ordered list if you can.-
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In post 408, Killthestory wrote:Tl;dr that for me
I'm too busy to make short posts so I'm going to be making long ones tonight.-
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Here's (roughly) where I'm at with the game: ChurchOfMercy, Severa, KTthecreeper, jmo16mla, Nosferatu, KillTheStory, Jim, Bellaphant, Acryon, MagnaOfIllusion, Lowell, Imperium, Ollie.
ChurchOfMercy's primary content revolves around how everyone is dumb for voting them and now have added sarcastic remarks about they're mafia and have been caught. They sound more resigned to their fate as opposed to having a desire to push forward and turn the tables around.
Severa needs to read the thread and post actual thoughts. All she's done so far is attack ChurchOfMercy. Regardless of ChurchOfMercy's flip, I see it as either a player pushing the easiest lynch or feeling compelled to bus.
KTthecreeper's constant promises to come and post but not delivering on them doesn't sit well with me.
My townread on jmo16mla is pretty much dead. He posted on the site last night and the day before. So, I don't see why he couldn't contribute here.
My reads on Nosferatu and KillTheStory haven't changed. Read on Jim is under development but consistent engagement with the game seems slightly townish.
I'll elaborate on Bellaphant later but besides the things I questioned her about, other things she's done have leaned town to me.
Acryon's posting has looked increasingly town. The part where he re-evaluated how he was viewing the argument between me and Nosferatu seemed like genuine thought progression.
I'm reverting to my earlier townread on MagnaOfIllusion and I found his explanation to my previous questions to make sense.
Lowell is probably the most counter-intuitive read I have especially given my early posts. His suspicion of ChurchOfMercy before anybody else brought it up played into it. Beyond that, the way he's going about collecting reads without caring about anyone's thoughts on him looks distinctly town.
Imperium - I'd expect Nacho to be wary of townreading me too easily so that makes sense. He does seem slightly less energetic than in our last game though. I'm not sure what that means but I still think he's more town than the rest of the game.
Ollie is still my #1 townread.-
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I don't have a strong townread on Magna. I'd put him just below my four strong townreads (Ollie, Imperium, Lowell, KillTheStory). I have some issues with Bellaphant's posting but have a slight townlean because it seemed like she was doing some scumhunting behind the scenes i.e. asking Ollie for scumgames, checking them and using that to refine her read. She's putting in more trouble to develop her read than is strictly needed and she hasn't even mentioned her results until I asked for them. If she were mafia showing off how much "effort" she was putting, I don't think she'd wait to be prodded on it before revealing what she learned. Speaking of which...
@Bellaphant -
In post 291, Bellaphant wrote:@ocean, I asked for Ollie's scum games (not town!) to see if he was the kind of cheeky player who'd make a joke like that. The answer is 'yes', but they've been a tonne more aggressive in their other games, going after the guy who tunnelled him, being a lot more in your face than he has been here.
I'd like to see the specific posts in those other games where he did it.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 355, Imperium wrote:In post 344, Jim wrote:I had no real issues with every post up until this one. It gives off the distinct tones of scum trying to present a laid-back comedic town attitude, but the delivery just falls flat. It could be a matter of the person, but this post makes no legitimate sense as to why it was posted or what it sought to achieve other than the above.
I agree that this post is a bit of a strange post, but, from what I've read of KTthecreeper, his posts are a little strange tonally, and I find the follow-up explanation that he posted to be pretty damn believable and fairly creative coming from a newer scum player. I also feel like I have a pretty good handle on his thought process on scum based on my familiarity with this scum topic (if you glance through it quickly, you'll probably be able to see where I'm coming from), and the "I'm going to make this post to sound laid back and funny" scum motivation that you're looking for here doesn't really mesh with his thought process does. What does mesh well, however, is the "trying new approaches in order to fix problems in his towngame" piece. I don't think he's a self-aware enough player to fake this particular aspect of his meta (I don't think he's aware of my familiarity of his meta), and to address a concern you bring up later in this wall, I don't think that if he was trying to pander to me specifically just by posting more "words" that it would align so closely with his previous thoughts about his town game.
Does that make sense?
All of this does make sense but I've played one game with KTthecreeper before (Micro 550). He was town and I was mafia and I thought he was bleeding town all over the place (which was why I buddied him). I don't expect anyone to read a whole game but notice how at the end of page one, he starts questioning Kaboose, and by page two, he is in the middle of a full-on attack on him. He does get voted by a couple of other players (Kaboose and Huntress) on page two, but while he stops to address their suspicion, he also prioritizes his attack on Kaboose and continues scumhunting elsewhere (Not_Mafia) on page three. The rest of the game goes by with KTthecreeper active and engaged and confidently pushing his reads. Here, KTthecreeper reacts (in a genuine way, I'll grant), but he doesn't have the same enthusiasm and spark that he did in his towngame.
I don't discount the possibility that someone who is often lynched as town would upon drawing a mafia role feel he can take advantage of that by saying "I'm always getting lynched when I'm town." I also think that even if he's mafia here, he'd want to try something different than what always gets him lynched as town. I do agree that him experimenting with different reactions to votes is a point in favor of him being town though. I read the first twenty posts in his ISO in the game you are talking about. His posting there as mafia is actually more similar to his towngame than his posting here. I'm not even sure he's mafia but I suppose I just want to hear more thoughts on KTthecreeper.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 445, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Um, what? You somehow mixed up Lowell and myself? How does that even happen given we are pretty much antithetical to each other’s playstyle? Maybe Imperium or Ocean I could see. But Lowell? I don’t find this as credible.
Are you saying that you think Jim made up that explanation after the fact?
In post 461, Imperium wrote:Oh I'm feeling a bit better about OceanWind since his town read on jmo is recently dead. Neither one of us can understand why anyone has a town read there, and while I've had suspicions on both slots, nacho and i both agreed that it would be more likely for jmo to follow a townie on a bad push early game than a scum buddy, so we were having a slight issue seeing an ocean/jmo team though found both independently scummy and had no clue why ocean though jmo was town.
As I mentioned, jmo16mla remarking that Lowell's townread on MagnaOfIllusion was very quick matched with my thoughts. MagnaOfIllusion's posts seemed non-alignment indicative to me so Lowell's reaction seemed odd - one that jmo16mla called him out on. I was also suspicious of Lowell at the time so jmo16mla's subsequent vote rang town to me. Finally, I agreed with everything he said in 62: Lowell calling out KTthecreeper was something I had pushed previously, his accusation that Lowell was buddying Albert was something I found reasonable as well (although it later became clear that Lowell was simply testing Albert). All this was before jmo16mla slowly faded out of the game. At that time, it was enough content for him to be one of my townreads.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 465, Imperium wrote:In post 270, OceanWind wrote:Reading through MagnaOfIllusion's and Acryon's arguments on the current page, I'm actually agreeing with Acryon more than MagnaOfIllusion. The latter calling my post where I called him town "appeasing" was ridiculous and smacks of "look at me, I'm accusing people that are townreading me." I also thought Acryon's point on low-hanging fruit was fairly straightforward. He says he's not but he might be perceived as such based on early play. So, I have no idea why MagnaOfIllusion is incapable of understanding it after several explanations. I still want my own concerns answered but I'm less suspicious of Acryon than before.
I didn't like this post though.
Although I'm town reading Acryon, his low-hanging fruit argument was stupid as Magna has been pushing at pretty much anything that strikes him as off, though at the same time I completely understand Acryon's point. However, I've had enough experience and arguments with Magna to know that Acryon's argument about him being low-hanging fruit but no really would strike Magna as completely off.
What makes me laugh about this is that I think from the way that Ocean Wind has approached this game so far that that conversation should be clear. I also think that Ocean Wind would understand the appeasement argument, and this post here where he pulls back on his town read on Magna reminds me of Wedding Blitz Invitational where Malakittens!scum gave me a townread for reasons she shouldn't and when I called her out on it, she suddenly found my posts null. Amusingly, I thought that Nosferatu's "8:40" thing was extremely obvious therefore him getting after someone for something straightforward rang false to me and I also thought that the early Lowell push was trash, so. But oh I'll probably get there soon.
1. What Acryon said was that he was difficult to lynch. He also said that his early posting and low activity level may cause someone who didn't know him to perceive him as low hanging fruit. MagnaOfIllusion took issue with this and attacked Acryon for this "self-contradiction." I found that a bit ridiculous since "I'm not low-hanging fruit but based on my activity so far, you may perceive me as low-hanging fruit and therefore attacked me" seemed perfectly reasonable and has no self-contradiction. It seemed me like MagnaOfIllusion was just throwing whatever arguments he could at Acryon because Acryon wasn't particularly townread or in a strong position at that point. When pressed on it, Magna clarified that it was the fact that Acryon was using charged language like "low hanging fruit" in a situation that didn't warrant it that he found suspicious. I found that explanation somewhat more reasonable than "self-contradiction."
2. I did find Magna's attack on me scummy. I'm not sure how what another player did in another game has any relevance. I find it just as likely for town to suspect their attacker as mafia.
3. What are you talking about regarding "Nosferatu's 8:40 thing?" If it is the fact that one of his classes start at 8:40 and he had to leave specifically at that time, it certainly wasn't obvious to me considering I don't know him or his schedule. It seemed like he posted just after being called out by MagnaOfIllusion, then denied that he was, then stated that he didn't read anything after 8:40 which conveniently seemed like a time just before he was called out. I needed him to explain how that happened. How was it obvious to you?
4. I think Lowell is town now but I found his early push on KTthecreeper and responses pretty bad. I think it's unreasonable for Lowell to expect KTthecreeper to respond to all RVS votes rather than just ones on himself.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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Still think ChurchOfMercy is mafia. I'd prefer this day go on longer though since none of the people I really want to hear from have posted anything substantial in the last few days. Bellaphant had time to post on the site this weekend despite V/LA but not here. Also, a week-long birthday? Maybe "birthweek" would be more appropriate here. jmo16mla clearly has time to signup for another game but not play the one he's already signed up for. KTthecreeper will hopefully be replaced. Jim says he'll be back today which I really hope is the case. Nosferatu hasn't posted in two days. Updated thoughts from all of these players and KTthecreeper's replacement would be cool. I'm also really hoping Severa actually reads/engages with the game. I'm feeling relatively comfortable with Acryon, MagnaOfIllusion, Lowell, Imperium, KillTheStory, and Ollie as town so it's most likely between the other seven players.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 516, Bellaphant wrote:Ugh, though, I totally misremembered my other game with ocean - he was scum. I'll admit some of this was a meta-read: we argued the fuck with him and got nked - I just remembered being impressed with his play. Thanks for the headsup.
I don't think we've played together in the past (unless you are part of some hydra that I didn't notice).-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 524, Bellaphant wrote:@ocean 397
1. It was mainly the low hanging fruit thing and the issues around tone. I know you seemed to think magna was being intransigent, but I understood their frustration.
2. Not much, although day 1 I tend to ask more questions.
@ocean 429 from other games? K, but it'll be tomorrow if you still want this.
1. What were these "issues around tone" where you felt Acryon was being inconsistent? Can you point out the specific inconsistencies you saw?
2. Okay, so if there's not much difference between you and Lowell, why are you scumreading him? If there's more to your read than "not pushing his reads," I'd like to hear it.
3. Yeah, it would help if you post links to specific posts (whenever you find the time).-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 528, SnarkySnowman wrote:Here's a readlist.
Town {MagnaofIllusion, Oceanwind, Ollie}
Townlean {Bellephant, Jim, acryon, Killthestory}
Scumlean {Lowell, Imperium, Nosferatu, ChurchofMercy}
Scum {Severa}
ChurchofMercy is interesting, because I see a lot of associatives with them (and a lot of info to be gained from that lynch), but I don't necessarily think they're scum, so I'd like to consider. Let me read that one a little more thoroughly.
Severa, on the other hand, has done almost nothing and I feel like that's a particularly worthy lynch, if we run up against it. Also, UNVOTE:
Explanations to go with the scum and scumleans would be cool.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 529, Bellaphant wrote:I agreed with mag's points around how he wants to be viewd by the town 254.
I don't follow. Acryon was the one who said MagnaOfIllusion is overly concerned with how he is perceived by the town. What exactly are you agreeing with here?
In post 529, Bellaphant wrote:256 bout low hanging fruit seems super weasley to me. I also didn't like in Post 268 we're rehasing an agurment over the first 'six -posts' instead of moving forward. There's a lack of consistent movement in a sensible direction.
What do you mean "super-weasley?" You just repeated what MagnaOfIllusion said about "weasel language." How was Acryon being weasley? Also, he was "rehashing the argument" because I was pushing him on it. Would you expect him to not respond?
In post 529, Bellaphant wrote:irt to lowell: firstly, my role pm, secondly the push on kt (eaaaaasy bait), immediate townread on magna, imp, ollie, kts, scum-reads with no reasoning: I had like ten posts this morning to his 18, but I feel I've provided some content (and more now), rather than the lack of info with lowell.
If you found Lowell's push on KTthecreeper scummy, why didn't you say anything about it then? You only said "one of the votes on him is probably scum" (Post 76). When specifically asked which vote you found scummy, you were still vague about it "I can easily see scum pushing a mislynch and with four votes, it's probable that one may be'(Post 223).-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 325, ChurchOfMercy wrote:DAY 1 READS
I'll finish Thursday night, guys. There's a storm coming and the power's likely to go out.
What happened to this? It's Tuesday of the following week.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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I'm surprised you actually followed that newbie game. Can you go into more detail about your reads? Right now, they are very vague and don't tell much about your thought process behind them. For instance, what are these "right questions" that MagnaOfIllusion is asking? How are Jim's posts better, and better compared to what? Why are Lowell and KillTheStory leaning town? The only thing you said about those two are negative things. Why are Nosferatu and Severa scum? What happened to your scumread on me? You claim to still be bugged that I "defended KTthecreeper" but now I'm "paying close attention to the game?" Has your previous list changed or is it still the same?-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 564, Lowell wrote:Of the new replacements since I last checked, I'm getting townvibes from snarky and scumvibes from Xis.
Mind elaborating here. I get the opposite feeling on both. Xisiqomelir's reads and reasons are very original which I like. Snowman's post leaves a lot more to be desired. For someone who apparently read twenty-odd pages, he seems content to drop a list of reads, said he'd get back on ChurchOfMercy and hasn't posted since.
In post 580, Imperium wrote:1. Yeah, I understood all sides of the discussion between acryon and magna. I do think that the first argument about the self-contradiction is exactly how magna would read it though.
2. How people treat people in games goes to mindset and it is absolutely useful and relevant to note. People create scumtells and how scum or town are more likely to react based on how scum and town have reacted in previous games. I'm pretty sure you know that.
3. Yeah, I thought that was pretty obvious. I don't know Nosferatu's schedule either, but when she said it couldn't have been after 8:40 or whatever she said, I immediately thought oh that was the time she went to work, school, whatever, and thought it was really obvious. Part of my point there was the you getting after Magna for something you thought was obvious felt off when there was a really obvious thing to me that you were pushing and didn't understand immediately. In part this just goes to show that what is obvious for one person is not at all obvious to another.
4. I thought Lowell's early thing with KT was just an early game push meant to do something/look like he was doing something or get a reaction/read out of KT. I didn't for one second think he was actually pushing a case he strongly believed in in the first two pages of the game that he thought would gain much traction. I thought his fake day kill thing on you was him expressing frustration that you had walked through his attempt to get a read.
1. That's okay if you think that. I'm not sure why you expect me to have an insight into how MagnaOfIllusion would read self-contradictions. Also, there was no self-contradiction. Acryon basically said "I'm not low hanging fruit but I could be perceived as such."
2. I'm aware and I've said it in the past too. The difference here is that you are bringing up a single instance of a behavior rather than a pattern.
3. The difference between my push on Nosferatu and MagnaOfIllusion's push on Acryon was that I didn't make the connection between 8:40 before Nosferatu explained it but after he did, I understood what he was saying. In the other argument, Acryon explained to MagnaOfIllusion a couple of times exactly what he meant pretty clearly.
4. Town push their early reads in RVS to progress the game. Mafia also push their "reads" in RVS to pretend like they are town progressing the game. Lowell's early posts felt like the latter because his reasons for suspecting KTthecreeper were objectively bad. It makes "surface-level" sense to accuse KTthecreeper of being "mafia that only cares about votes on him" while ignoring that any human being is drawn to mentions of their own name. If he had just said "KTthecreeper's reactions to pressure seemed fake," I wouldn't have suspected him.
But it wasn't the case by itself that made me suspect him. It was the fact that three other people voted KTthecreeper after Lowell did. There's plenty of scum motivation to post a made-up case on an awkward townie so that he hopefully digs himself into a deeper hole - it's the opportunity provided that's important. When town pressures someone (town or mafia), I've seen mafia jump in with shitty reasoning. I believed that this was one of those cases.
There's also the fact that Lowell could have seen a partner in trouble and hastily threw together a case because other people wagoned him. When mafia see a newbie partner wagoned, the temptation to push that partner hard is very high because if a buddy is getting lynched anyways, you want credit for it. Considering I also suspected KTthecreeper, this was a distinct possibility.
I don't understand why anyone would use cases they don't believe in to "get the game going." I don't RVS vote ever. My first post is usually a vote for the person that I find scummiest based on posts so far, and then I change it whenever someone new does something even scummier and so on. Low information doesn't mean you "clown around" and say things you don't actually believe.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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Current scumreads for me are ChurchOfMercy, SnarkySnowman, Jim, and Bellaphant roughly in that order.
I find the make-some-posts-and-disappear routine for SnarkySnowman and Jim mafia-indicative as I tend to find most players tend to be less motivated to keep up with the flow of the game when they draw a mafia role. Jim also had several logical inconsistencies in his posts that he hasn't come back to explain. SnarkySnowman's single reads-list and no other content doesn't make sense from someone who just entered the game as that's when you know you have time to spare or you wouldn't have replaced in.
Severa still needs to post more content but I'm liking the more aggressive posting and I completely agree that SnarkySnowman putting him down as a sole scumread was odd. Xisiqomelir is the same tier.
Nosferatu is most likely town. His scumreads (Ollie, Lowell, Imperium) don't match with the general concensus at all which I find townish even though those three are fairly strong townreads for me. Reads on KillTheStory, MagnaOfIllusion, Ollie, Imperium, and Lowell haven't changed but I really would appreciate Lowell catching up and posting actual content as that's the read I'm second-guessing the most.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 598, acryon wrote:Consider this an intent to hammer.
Wait till Bellaphant and Jim come back and answer my questions. I also want SnarkySnowman to post more.
In post 606, Lowell wrote:There was one post in particular I really liked. I'm too lazy to find it again, but I can if for some reason it matters.
You are kidding, right? He made three posts. The first was saying that he would catch up, and the last was a naked vote for Severa. That leaves one post.
In post 607, Bellaphant wrote:My issue is he starts of by saying he was low hanging fruit, then he wasn't, then he isn't, and then it doesn't matter anyway. I just feel there's a lot of distancing between what was said between one time and the next around the same core idea.
No. The argument goes like this:
Spoiler: Low Hanging fruit argument
Show me precisely where Acryon was doing a lot of distancing between one idea and the next. I strongly suspect you are bs'ing your explanations and riding on MagnaOfIllusion's coattails. I want specifics here.
@Imperium -You say that you expect MagnaOfIllusion to react exactly as he did to the low-hanging fruit argument. In your mind, does this also apply to Bellaphant? It's pretty clear to me what Acryon was arguing and it apparently is to you as well. What do you make of Bellaphant's post here (the segment I quoted above)?
In post 607, Bellaphant wrote:Also, before I go trawl back through the two games I was linked, why do you want it? It's there for you if you want it - and it'd be a dumb thing for me to make up. If I can get behind your answer, I'll do it.
I want to verify that you did in fact read the games like you say you did. I'm not going to assume that you did if you don't provide evidence of it. First, you delayed providing this information. Now you are asking me to justify why I'm asking when it's completely obvious. Then you claim that you'll only provide it if you can "get behind my reason." If you really did look at those games like you say you did, this should be trivially easy.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 610, SnarkySnowman wrote:I'll be honest, I'm starting to see the argument for Bella being scum. I'm not sure I'm feeling the town vibes off the post you mention but I'm a little more cautious with my townread on bella - maybe into the null category for now?
Is there a reason you ignored all the posts asking for explanations on your reads?-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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Yeah, that case by SnarkySnowman was baloney. The part about "derailing the more thorough cases against Bellaphant" was a huge stretch. I'm actually leaning towards Bellaphant and SnarkySnowman being mafia together. Considering he has Bellaphant as a "townlean," it is odd the way he is trying to tie Bellaphant and Severa together and accusing Severa of shutting down discussion on Bellaphant. I'd rather lynch SnarkySnowman today. Do we have the time and the numbers to switch?
UNVOTE: ChurchOfMercy
VOTE: SnarkySnowman-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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Severa is also really obviously town based on the last several posts. ChurchOfMercy could potentially be town considering how SnarkySnowman is hedging there - not exactly voting him but also saying one of Severa/ChurchOfMercy is mafia. The way Bellaphant hopped on there also makes me rethink that slot.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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Based on his response to SnarkySnowman's case, yeah. I know you think Severa is mafia but look at SnarkySnowman's case on him and how he positioned himself to "compromise" on you. The case is complete nonsense. His not taking a position on you probably means he thinks your lynch is achievable without his support. So, the following day, he can look like he has his hands clean and continue pushing Severa. The "association" is crap as well. Once you flip town, he'll simply go back to "oh, it was Severa all along, not ChurchOfMercy."-
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Yeah, I don't feel that strongly that ChurchOfMercy is town but enough to want SnarkySnowman first, and then rethink. But I think if SnarkySnowman and ChurchOfMercy were mafia together, Snarky probably wouldn't hesitate to vote a doomed partner and instead vote a player he knows he has no chance of lynching.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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In post 639, MagnaofIllusion wrote:The fact that we’ve had such trouble getting Church to L-1 in the first place combined with this sudden very, very late day counter-wagon building makes me feel even better about the CoM lynch.
We had no trouble getting ChurchOfMercy up to L-1. People kept unvoting because they didn't want them in hammer range but for the vast majority of the day, ChurchOfMercy was the default lynch option. It's only now that another option emerged. What trouble are you talking about?
In post 639, MagnaofIllusion wrote:You replaced a flaked slot with no posts. You hop on the leading wagon with no reasoning other than “CoM is scum” and have done NO scum-hunting despite there being a thread full of content to discuss. Not hard to see your slot as a strong scum candidate – I certainly do.
Are you saying Severa is mafia with ChurchOfMercy or that he's mafia in the event ChurchOfMercy flips town? If the former, do you think he was bussing?
My townread on him comes from how he reacted to the case on him. The sudden aggression looked like town that thought they finally found something strong to push on. Severa wasn't in any real danger of being lynched so I don't know why he as mafia would panic at SnarkySnowman catching him and push back hard rather than stay on the bus/mislynch of ChurchOfMercy and put off Snarky for the following day.
I'm also interested in your thoughts about Snarky's actual case. Specifically, the notion that KillTheStory's case on Bellaphant was good and that Severa was derailing a legitimate line of enquiry. I found KillTheStory's case mediocre and attitude unproductive so it wasn't unreasonable for Severa to make that "god's gift to scumhunting" quip.
In post 652, Imperium wrote:My initial impression is that derailing the CoM wagon to lynch Snarky is stupid; I've had decently strong scum reads on both slots for a while now, they are now shaping up as counter wagons and are still not cross voting (instead, they are both pushing a third target).
Why is it stupid to lynch Snarky if you have a decent scumread on the slot? What do you think of Snarky's case on Severa?-
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In post 672, Imperium wrote:In post 524, Bellaphant wrote:3. Ok, I didn't explain this well: reading through the game as a whole I found myself not agreeing with magna's points, but when I looked at them in iso I saw a tonne of thought progression and engagement - a lot of the time I look at whether I can see a sustained thought process, rather than if I directly agree with it. The frustration with acron seemed real, 162 was good, they pushed me for follow up about kt
I liked this post from Bella - this is a fairly insightful post from her on Magna and I think it's probably indicative of a town approach; no, it's nothing huge or really significant and I'm having trouble forming the right words, but I think that the reasons she's town reading Magna for are good ones and I think that it's less likely she would come to the right conclusion if she was scum.
While I didn't find that bit particularly scummy, it is vague to the point I'm not really sure what she's talking about. Decent players can fake thought progressions even as mafia and stay fairly engaged with the game, be frustrated at people and so on.
More than that though, I don't find her approach to the argument between MagnaOfIllusion and Acryon to be original. She's just going along with Magna's points using similar wording ("weaseling"), and just parroting what Magna said. I didn't get the feeling that she felt strongly one way or another or even understood the specifics of their argument. She just told me vague stuff like "I just feel there's a lot of distancing between what was said between one time and the next around the same core idea" which seems evasive and a way to just address my suspicion so I'd get off of her rather than positively asserting that Acryon is mafia for such and such reasons and that I should see it.
There's also her repeated dodging of my request to post links to games of Ollie's that she read. If she really did read them, posting the evidence shouldn't take so long. But on the 12th, when she first got to my question, she said she'll post the following day. Yesterday the 14th, when she came back, she modified that and said that I should give her a reason for asking and if she can get behind that, then she'd post the links. That makes me suspect that she didn't actually do the reading.
In post 672, Imperium wrote:In post 524, Bellaphant wrote:lowell continues to not impress.
And, oddly enough, I agree with this. Lowell was a town read of mine early game, but since then he's faded into the deep dark nothingness and is starting to play exactly like I expected his scum game to look like. I like this observation as well!
I've been in the same place (townreading Lowell mid-D1 and then wondering if I'm wrong), but it's the little things he does like popping up to say that Severa was town at a time when others were pushing him that re-inforce my townread. It's more that Lowell seeing what I'm seeing is relatable.
I thought Bellaphant's read on Lowell was rather shallow. She's voting for ChurchOfMercy, yet Lowell was the first person to bring up that are likely mafia which was the turning point for my read. Bellaphant doesn't seem to have given it a second glance.
I think the scumteam is comprised of SnarkySnowman, Bellaphant, and one of Jim or ChurchOfMercy. The first two actually make a decent amount of sense as a team. Snarky trying to tie Severa to Bellaphant despite having her as a townread is one such indication. What actually made me second-guess the most on ChurchOfMercy though is that Snarky is happy to sit on the sidelines and let the lynch go through without committing to it. That reads like he things we can lynch them without his support. You are scumreading both ChurchOfMercy and SnarkySnowman. Can you elaborate on what you think of Snarky's attitude towards ChurchOfMercy?
In post 685, Imperium wrote:Have you done any research into Snowman's meta? Machina Mafia was likely the townies game he has ever played, and it wasn't very dissimilar from this game.
I remember vaguely reading the game towards the end where Titus and DiamondSentinel handed mafia the win. But I don't remember SnarkySnowman. Maybe I'll go look if I have time.
In post 685, Imperium wrote:What?
You think that Snarky as scum saw a perfectly viable mislynch and instead of just cashing in on it (because everyone agreed with it), he instead decided to make a push on Severa, who a majority of town players were town reading?
Where do you get that the majority of players were townreading Severa? I had him as my second scumread and most people just seemed disappointed with how Severa is not posting much content. But we agree that Severa wasn't likely to be lynched today. So, if Snarky is mafia, why does he ignore the wagon on his buddy and place his vote on an unlikely lynch? On the other hand, if ChurchOfMercy is town that is the default lynch of the day, you don't think mafia would consider the idea of keeping their hands clean knowing that they'll get the mislynch anyways?
In post 697, Imperium wrote:Why wouldn't he just vote on the Church wagon though, especially as he's stated that he's not town reading them? His hands wouldn't be dirty anyway as he's not the main pusher of that wagon. He could very easily follow along with the crowd today and not look bad.
Because his vote is not needed to achieve the mislynch. And the "talking like they are town" thing, I'm conflicted on Church.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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Let's not end the day just yet please. I want to see Jim either back and posting or for his replacement to catch up and take stances. Assuming Jim gets replaced, the mod would have to freeze or extend the deadline. Just to confirm
@Mod -can we have the deadline extended in case Jim doesn't show up.-
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In post 744, Imperium wrote:In post 743, OceanWind wrote:Let's not end the day just yet please. I want to see Jim either back and posting or for his replacement to catch up and take stances. Assuming Jim gets replaced, the mod would have to freeze or extend the deadline. Just to confirm
@Mod -can we have the deadline extended in case Jim doesn't show up.
Do you still want to lynch Snarky over CoM?
Yeah. I wrote a long wall response to you. I'm not sure whether you missed it or planned to address it later. I'll try and explain it in a different way, maybe with quotes this time.-
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OceanWind Mafia Scum
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So, here's Snarky's first content post in the game:
In post 528, SnarkySnowman wrote:Here's a readlist.
Town {MagnaofIllusion, Oceanwind, Ollie}
Townlean {Bellephant, Jim, acryon, Killthestory}
Scumlean {Lowell, Imperium, Nosferatu, ChurchofMercy}
Scum {Severa}
ChurchofMercy is interesting, because I see a lot of associatives with them (and a lot of info to be gained from that lynch), but I don't necessarily think they're scum, so I'd like to consider. Let me read that one a little more thoroughly.
Severa, on the other hand, has done almost nothing and I feel like that's a particularly worthy lynch, if we run up against it. Also, UNVOTE:
a. The only reason he has for Severa being mafia is "doing almost nothing" which is pretty weak for twenty pages of content read.
b. Doesn't vote Severa here (wants others to make the first move).
c. Sees a lot of "associatives" with ChurchOfMercy. Doesn't explain what these are. Doesn't explain any of his reads despite being asked twice. Claims he wants to read "more thoroughly" but don't necessarily think they are scum. This is the hedging that I'm talking about. ChurchOfMercy is all but a default lynch for the day and he's refusing to take a stance and commit to a position. By the way, he never followed up on the "more thorough read." His wording here (info-lynch) also suggests that he doesn't want responsibility for the townflip. Mafia don't call their partners lynches "info-lynches." Especially not newbie-type mafia like Snarky-Snowman.
A lot of people call him out for his lack of vote so he puts a vote on Severa. By the way, this doesn't make sense with his earlier stance that he'd vote Severa if a wagon forms since only one vote was on Severa. It looks more like he buckled under pressure and cast a vote.
In post 613, SnarkySnowman wrote:In post 432, Severa wrote:Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.
This, directed at Kts, feels like it's meant to be de-railing to one of the most thorough cases (against Bella) that I've seen Kts make.
Killthestory basically said "we're lynching Bellaphant today" here. She didn't make a "case" much less a thorough one. This is bullshit.-
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I don't really understand the need to end the day right away. We don't have much to lose from Jim or his replacement (a slot that I think has a good chance of flipping mafia) committing to positions on ChurchOfMercy and SnarkySnowman. My top suspects are those three and Bellaphant so the more I see them all interacting, the better it is for later. Jim or his replacement catching up during the night doesn't solve that. Besides I'd rather we don't decide lynches based on high-volume last minute posting.
1. Snarky did say that he'd vote Severa "if we run up against it." That's not a narrative I'm creating.
2. You keep implying that if there's a near guaranteed mislynch, mafia would definitely hop on rather than hesitate to join the wagon or create counterwagons so that they can push the following day. A mafia player's dream ending to day one is two town counterwagons because the next day, the people who didn't get their lynch will push that wagon. You are acting like their only option is to hop onto that certain mislynch and I don't agree with that even remotely.
3. If he pushes Severa and somehow manages to swing the votes, chances are people are going to go back to ChurchOfMercy the following day. An unexpected lynch usually results in the previous days suspicions being continued. But if he pushes Severa and fails, a) people will likely look at the ChurchOfMercy mislynch wagon (assuming they are town) for mafia letting him evade suspicion. b) He can simply continue the push the following day. I think if he made a late hop onto the Church wagon, people would likely find it scummy and he's self-conscious about that.
In post 763, Imperium wrote:Snarky gets mislynched/immediately vigged a lot.
I looked through the first few links you gave and skimmed Snarky's ISO briefly. He does seem to just post naked reads lists and have low activity relative to the rest of the game so I'll grant that maybe he's just lynchbait. I still want to see him post a lot more and not just rush the lynch today. Your point on Albert Rampage is noted. There were a couple of games I read of his where he had a lot of passion for the game which he isn't showing here.
In post 765, Imperium wrote:This is not a good move to do regardless of alignment; I don't understand why you say that newb-scum wouldn't say that their partner's lynch had information (if he said he was lynching CoM for information, that would be an abnormal bus and thus would be an unlikely interaction. Saying nothing alignment indicative about your partner is new-scum 101).
He said a ChurchOfMercy lynch would yield information. That looks like he's setting up to "compromise" on them if it is needed. That would also be the reason why he has them as a leaning scumread as opposed to a townread. He wants to leave open the option to vote them if it comes down to it.
Anyways, it seems I'm outnumbered and there just aren't enough people who want to lynch SnarkySnowman. I'll roll with a ChurchOfMercy lynch but I want the full day utilized and no hammer before Jim's replacement has a chance to post.-
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In post 786, Imperium wrote:I do.
Why are you agreeing to lynch Snarky tomorrow if in your mind, he's lynchbait/you are not sure about your read on him?-
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In post 798, Imperium wrote:When I say that I'm not sure about Snarky as compared to CoM, we are talking about 95% sure that a player is mafia versus 65% sure. I'm still perfectly happy lynching Snarky in normal circumstances because the slot is scummy as hell, but I'm not dismantling a wagon on a player I am extremely confident is scum to someone who is not so scum because they are doing things they do as town because they are lynchbait. I am doubly not dismantling a wagon on my top scumread to lynch my second one when the people leading the charge say that my second scumread probably isn't scum with my first.
Okay, who are your current scumreads in order (besides the two you already mentioned)?-
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In post 800, Imperium wrote:At this point, Lowell is probably very easily my third, but past that there's Jim whose posting I sort of liked when he was around and then the group of players who I'm town reading but not confidently (and hence could probably see them as scum), which is the mass I'll sort out with our deadline extension.
Lowell was the first person who brought up the possibility of ChurchOfMercy being mafia (who you claim to be 95% sure on). He was also the second vote on the wagon. Is he bussing?-
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In post 803, Imperium wrote:In post 802, OceanWind wrote:Lowell was the first person who brought up the possibility of ChurchOfMercy being mafia (who you claim to be 95% sure on). He was also the second vote on the wagon. Is he bussing?
Yes.
I have a hard time buying that considering most of his focus has been on ChurchOfMercy. Is there a past precedent you are using for this read?
I also don't understand your recent townread on Bellaphant. Can you point to something more than that you liked her saying that Lowell was unimpressive and reading MagnaOfIllusion as town for "thought progressions?"
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