Open 670: Near Vanilla (Over)

[Toto]

If Sesq is objectively scummy, why not put your vote down? I think there is quite a bit of resistance from the wagon given it's been between L-2 and L-3 for the better part of D1. Normally we would have at least run her up to L-1 by now.

Normally you should be dead.

[Toto]

Normally you should be dead.

That was really weak.

You are asking me why Im not voting him when I already said why Im not voting him in the same post. So clearly the answer to your question was there. What was your question for?

[Toto]

Is that weak too ? ^^^^

[Toto]

Why is the rest of the sentence wrong?

[Toto]

Also you didnt answer my question.

[Toto]

A few things have pinged me about him but you are making it sound like I'm saying I'm 100% convinced he is scum. Like I said, I don't like the way his wagon has played out and I don't want him hammered yet.

And those are NOT the only two ways to interpret my post.

And you still have not answered my question: what is the purpose of your question if the answer was already there.

[Toto]

Nope, you did not. If you did please enlighten my tiny brain.

[Toto]

Also, since you want to be pedantic about the use of language:

Objectively: "in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions."

Which means I think he has done scummy things which are should be considered scummy regardless of my subjective opinions. Which is IMPOSSIBLE in this game, and you should know that. Which means I was just being superlative.

That said, things can look objectively green without being green. Things can look objectively scummy without that person being scum.

So, I ask you again, do you not understand your own language, or are you mis-repping me?

Thanks,

[Toto]

Please present your case on Sesq.

[Toto]

VOTE: Nebula

[Toto]

There is no reason for this BS.

[Toto]

Dude, if you are town there absolute ZERO reason for you to behave like this.

[Toto]

No, I'm fucking sure there is no reason for you to not try to convince others to vote your scum read if you are town in this situation.

[Toto]

Fuck you, get lynched.

[Toto]

PEDIT: Toto, I don't really understand what you're saying, but the refusal to bring up reasoning is of extreme high suspect.

What are you talking about?

[Toto]

Sorry that was supposed to be a quote.

[Toto]

We have to lynch Neb or Sesq, otherwise day two is going to look exactly like d1.

[Toto]

UNVOTE:

I'm going to wait for you two to summarize cases against each other and I will vote the most convincing case. Good luck.

[Toto]

Lucca. Time to vote.

[Toto]

I will vote after Lucca.

[Toto]

Happy B-day Magna!

[Toto]

The alternative is that you are lying about having reads at all. Scum don't have reads. They know.

[Toto]

Why am I being lazy?

[Toto]

Sesq, summarize your case against Neb. Please.

[Toto]

More details, and yes please, go back to your ISO to pull more details of how you have debunked things.

What minor things you think he has tried to get you on, quote examples.

[Toto]

Why am I being lazy?

44 pages and what you come up with is "oh on the last page Lowell didn't list one of his town reads. ergo scum."? Dig a little deeper.

What do you think I missed?

[Toto]

Hawk is handsome and intelligent

VOTE: Lowell

[Toto]

Lowell the case against you is that your line of thinking or rather the way you are presenting your reads is inconsistent therefore could be coming from the fact that your reads are fabricated, and you got lost in your own made up story.

Your reads and contributions so far have been lacking a lot details. Therefore it is hard to judge you otherwise from the little content you have provided. If you are town please provide more detailed explanations for your reads.

Lay thy thought process open before this town, I compel you!


(basically you are getting lynched unless you come up with good reads, and alternative cases)

[Toto]

I'll likely be out all weekend. I'm putting you on notice that any further votes on me will be considered an act of war.

This really makes me want to vote you.

This really makes me want to vote you.

[Toto]

Why does town!Lowell say I forgot Elena instead of I townread her one post prior?

I don't understand this question

[Toto]

Rephrase question in a more understandable way, I don't understand what you are asking.

[Toto]

Lowell the case against you is that your line of thinking or rather the way you are presenting your reads is inconsistent therefore could be coming from the fact that your reads are fabricated, and you got lost in your own made up story.

Your reads and contributions so far have been lacking a lot details. Therefore it is hard to judge you otherwise from the little content you have provided. If you are town please provide more detailed explanations for your reads.

Lay thy thought process open before this town, I compel you!


(basically you are getting lynched unless you come up with good reads, and alternative cases)

Yeah, you're really not thinking here. How often do scum hilariously admit to ISO'ing themselves? If I were scum I'd be damn sure I remember who my scum and townreads are. You should praise my adorable candor, not acting like you've proved something.

Sure, but I can WIFOM that and say that was a LAMIST post.

Then you call me lazy and ask me to pay attention to the last 43 pages, as if I'm the one who is not paying attention. So

you openly admit you are not paying attention, then you critique me for the same thing?

I did not like that.

Who do you think is scum and why?

[Toto]

It's like a brick wall, this argument is going nowhere. Fine, whatever you found, run with it.

I understand the argument is at an impass. Either we believe town!lowell forgot to mention her, or we go for the scum!lowell slipped theory. It's really up to you. If you are town, show it. Give me good reads.

[Toto]

VOTE: Neb

[Toto]

KAIN TEPES, I WILL AVENGE YOUR DEATH!!!!

[Toto]

Nah, one of them was outside. Elena is a good candidate. But I smell someone's wagon got derailed.

[Toto]

Either yours or Sesq, yeah.

[Toto]

So, KAIN said that Hikari, BBT and Neb were scummy.

Elena was saying BBT was scummy and was probably more widely town read than KT.

He also soft claimed PR. But I'm not sure anyone would take that as not a joke.

But could also be a frame-kill. IDK. But there were better frame-kill candidates for that group. (i.e. me)

[Toto]

@bbt. If sesq is town why not vote Neb? All that exchange happened yesterday before you were still voting seaq.

[Toto]

Also you say you scum readme and you somehow forgot to mention my participation in that exchange. Weird.

[Toto]

hi

BBT

please answer my posts. Do interact with me.

[Toto]

@bbt. If sesq is town why not vote Neb? All that exchange happened yesterday before you were still voting seaq.

This is not a moot question. Please answer it. Do you town read Neb (Y/N)

Why didn't that exchange change your mind earlier, and you ended up voting Lowel/Sesq instead of Elena?

[Toto]

I can't help but feel both Sesq and Nebula are town

Ok, why is Nebula town?

[Toto]

Sesq is a fairly needy and frustrating player.

This still feels like a misplaced emotion for someone you are scum reading to me.

[Toto]

The Iron Knee ^^^^

[Toto]

I can't help but feel both Sesq and Nebula are town

Ok, why is Nebula town?

[Toto]

I can't help but feel both Sesq and Nebula are town

Ok, why is Nebula town?

[Toto]

BBT, I kind of like you, but please answer my question. I'm pretty sure there is at least one scum in {Nebula, Hikari, Elena}.

Convince me it is not Nebula.

[Toto]

Yeah, I don't want to bet on being here tomorrow, so let's discuss this now.

[Toto]

MoI also makes some pretty good points but I've become paranoid about MoI being scum

What makes you paranoid?

[Toto]

Its just the fact that he doesnt want to interact or answer simple questions. Im sorry but saying nyd is town because of post Y and not explaining the thought process further because it should be obvious is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in this game and entirely the opposite of what is good for town. It gives the entire scum team here an excuse to not have to respond difficult questions. And like I said before Hikari seems like a good player, like you said, so responding like this seems out of what I expect of his character.

His attitude is anti town at best and we can not let that continue or of anyone else in this game.

I don't understand how you can have this big a problem with Hiraki and not see the same exact thing in Elena but 10x worse.

Yeah, like I said. One of {Elena, Hikari, Nebula} must be scum because of this.

[Toto]

If so, I'm not sure how you can see Elena's dodging as anything other than being scum motivated.

Not to so much that Sesq had valid points as Elena was fatigued. She's denying which perturbs me more. I'm a little distracted at the moment but I am definitely considering support more than I would've thought previously based on

the fact that I'm a viable counter wagon

.

FIFY

[Toto]

Please stop being obnoxious. You and Sesq's attitudes toward playing this game are annoying and draining. It's not fun when you decide to act like teenagers for anyone.

I'm going to put this in my signature if you flip red.

[Toto]

I'm not upset because you're getting lynched right after me.

Do you have other scum reads?

[Toto]

Explain your cases on Hawk, MoI and BBT. You don't need to convince me about Nebula.

[Toto]

Shit, you guys are hard to work with.

Is your whole case that they are scumpartners and MoI asked him to switch votes to Lowell or is there anything else you find scummy?

[Toto]

BBT, to be fair, you didn't answer either when you said you were paranoid about him.

[Toto]

Now I want both of you to tell me why MoI is scum.

[Toto]

Creature is town.

[Toto]

Who was SR MoI and you didn't answer why you're scum reading him.

Unless your whole read is based on pre-flip associatives?

K, Elena, please answer that, thanks.

[Toto]

Cause that's pretty much what happened yesterday and we ended up lynching town.

[Toto]

Explain reads. In as much detail as possible. Little details means you get lynched. Bad explanations/reasons means you get lynched.

I'll be honest and say I have mixed feelings about your slot. Your reactions are good but your unprompted actions are not. For example that vote on Magna while Lowel as about to get lynched looks like scum that wants to look busy but doesn't want to be in the last bit of a town wagon, and doesn't want to derail it either.

If you are town you must have had a really good reason to vote Magna and ignore Lowell's wagon completely. So please explain your MoI read.

[Toto]

Riley, you scum read Nebula. Why are you not voting him?

Anyone else not voting Nebula better have a good explanation of why we should townread him.

[Toto]

I do agree that with this point it was kind of bunk, but your choice of vocabulary comes off as scummy. That said, it's more of a gut read at this point, which I have previously stated to be the case. In terms of logic you do present good points with rather unfortunate framing, but my gut is still going off like mad. But your worst part here is your last sentence, "Perhaps I was too haste in my town read of you based on your willingness to engage with me yesterday". First of all, I WAS engaging with you with that post, and with this very post as well. Engagement is also fairly NAI.

Hi, Sesq. Could you point to what vocabulary I used that came across as scummy? It would be helpful for me to understand that.

Also, I believe that you misinterpreted my last sentence. I was stating that I read you as town yesterday based on the fact that you engaged with me - which you now point out should not be indicative of alignment. I was stating that I may have been to haste in that read given the basis of your suspicion. I believe that to not be genuine.

VOTE: Sesq

I bolded the important part.

Here nebula votes Sesq because he believes Sesq's basis for suspecting nebula (choice of vocabulary) is fake itself and therefore scummy.

Now, it should be very obvious that this statement can't be sincere. Nebula is an alt that is purposefully displaying a fake personality. Nebula should realize this and should realize the way he phrases his posts comes off as fake, because it is fake by design.

So no fucking way he belives Sesq is being

disingenious

here.

I want this lynched today.

[Toto]

That post is scummy as hell. We lynched Lowell for less. But your display of hope is charming.

[Toto]

Nope. In that post Sesq was being sincere, you were being insincere. Insincerity is the #1 tool to find scum on D1. D1 is the hardest day for scum.

As town you had no reason to vote Sesq for that because you should know your fake personality comes off as fake.

If you can find a more insincere vote than that one then you may have a chance to not get lynched today. But you wont.

[Toto]

I was not looking for a reason to lynch you. But nice try.

I was re-reading the game from P1 and found that gem.

[Toto]

Whatevs - nice excuse.

What is that supposed to mean?

[Toto]

Notice how Nebula avoids addressing the case against him and instead focuses on discrediting the attacker.

[Toto]

I fail to see the logic here. I only scumread him AFTER he had abysmal responses to my rebuttals, his initial vote I don't necessarily see as a scummy move, but certainly most things he did after that point would qualify as such.

Nebula: "I'm voting Sesq because I don't believe Sesq finds my choice of vocabulary suspicious like he says, he is making up excuses to suspect me."

He is saying this as an Alt that uses a fake vocabulary by design.

[Toto]

^^^ that's paraphrased

[Toto]

I fail to see the logic here. I only scumread him AFTER he had abysmal responses to my rebuttals, his initial vote I don't necessarily see as a scummy move, but certainly most things he did after that point would qualify as such.

Nebula: "I'm voting Sesq because I don't believe Sesq finds my choice of vocabulary suspicious like he says, he is making up excuses to suspect me."

He is saying this as an Alt that uses a fake vocabulary by design.

I don't see how being an alt is relevant, but I'd agree thats a bad reason

He is a gimmick alt that uses non natural vocabulary on purpose.

[Toto]

K, replace out.

[Toto]

So what crap were you about to be done with?

[Toto]

Can you at least address my case against you if you are not going to replace out?

[Toto]

Nebula can you point out the things you wamted me to see in those ISOs? I did look at them but failed to find something relevant.

[Toto]

Nebula can you point out the things you wamted me to see in those ISOs? I did look at them but failed to find something relevant.

Um...their "insincere" votes. Pretty sure that was stated.

Which particular votes you refer to, and why do you find them insincere?

[Toto]

Give us evidence.

Not giving you shit, and since Toto's "insincerity" is based on his subjective reads, he can go read their votes himself. Can't provide evidence for subjectives.

Please explain your subjective reads. I did not find whatever it is you saw there. I really want to townread you but you are not scumhunting beyond calling Sesq and MoI scum back to them, and then jumping on counter wagons for little reasons when they have presented.

You keep calling MoI scum but you are voting Elena, and Elena herself is voting MoI and agreeing with your MoI scum read. What do you think about that?

Your play has been opportunistic without little proactive scum-hunting.

Riley

, I still expect you to vote here.

Why are you not voting Neb?

Hikari

, WTF are you doing voting Hawk: he is not getting lynched today.

LUV

Are you scum coasting? Time to explain your scumreads. More importantly:

Why are you town reading Nebula?

[Toto]

Might as well change the title to full vanilla now

[Toto]

[8]

Lowell

-

MagnaofIllusion

,

BlueBloodedToffee

,

Hawk

,

Toto

, Hiraki,

nebula

,

Riley Cake

,

KainTepes

[LYNCH]

Anyone else thinks there was more than MoL scum on that wagon?

[7]

nebula

- Sesq,

Toto

,

MagnaofIllusion

,

Riley Cake

,

Hawk

,

nebula

, hapahauli [LYNCH]

How about this one?

(I marked in yellow people who are in both wagons)

[Toto]

Wow, congrats Hawk!

Yeah, sorry, I should have clarified that I know I'm town

Sesq is also on the second wagon but I suspect it's either/or, not both of them together.

This is interesting, what makes you think they can't be scum together?

[Toto]

Holy crap!

VOTE: Sesq

[Toto]

Magna derailed your wagon to Lowell's.
Riley said she would hammer if you got to L-1.

[Toto]

Magna derailed your wagon to Lowell's.
Riley said she would hammer if you got to L-1.

As for the first, I was actually refusing to get on Lowell's wagon if you remember, and when it was at L-1 I was like heyyyy slow down.

As for the second, I don't see how that says anything other than they scumread me...

You really should be able to see how scum you would say things like that about lowel's wagon once it reached l-1.

We can sit here and discuss how we wont have conclusive evidence about how you are scum but you really need to start proposing alternatives instead of just defending yourself. You are not scumhunting. Why?

[Toto]

My alternative is Hawk - no chance you'll get my vote on Riley.

What's your case on Hawk?

[Toto]

UNVOTE:

I want us to take it slowly today.

[Toto]

Hiraki, don't be a bitch, just explain your read dude. Please, if you are town, just fucking collaborate.

[Toto]

That's ok. If you can please summarise, or point me at the post numbers that be great.

[Toto]

Based on associative tells and Magna's activity levels with each person, Music Box and Riley stood out most. Kind of on Hawk, too.

Provide evidence

[Toto]

Hap whats your read on Mb?

[Toto]

I really really dont want sesq at lylo and we only have one ml left. Id rather we use it on him. Hawk is an easy ML and leaving sesq after him makes me paranoid about people pushing for hawk first.

Hikari you have been pushing Sesq all game why change now?

The only concern I have is that Magna was defending sesq so hard on d1 and d2 it makes trading himself with nebula a dubious play given the obvious associations. Effectively it would make his play a 2x1 trade which seems silly, specially since elena was still a viable counter wagon.

[Toto]

Hi Elena, why Music Box?

@Hiraki. What makes you say Sesq's lynch isn't happening? Seems like an obvious choice to me.

[Toto]

Yeah. So my point is that a Hawk ML doesn't really tell me anything, while a Sesq ML tells me Neb and Sesq were TvT and tells me a lot of what was going on D1.

So if it is just between Sesq and Hawk, I'd rather lynch Sesq today. That said, I think it is important we take it easy today and try to let everyone participate a little bit. We have 12 long days ahead before we need to make a choice.

[Toto]

K, that sounds reasonable. Can you guys unvote for now though?. Let's have a nice chat first.

I'm also leaning Riley or Sesq for today.

[Toto]

Elena, whats your case on MB?

[Toto]

LUV was probably a PR kill. He was acting cagey for his meta. Scum Riley would see that as a necessary evil even if LUV was buddying her.

Also, why did you vote MB before and not Sesq?

[Toto]

Sesq (6) –

LUV

, Music Box, Hiraki,

Nebula

,

Lowell

,

BBT

If I had the mystic power to kill myself and every player on a wagon I'd use it in an instant here.

Nebula

,

Lowell

and Hiraki are all scummy as hell.

LUV

is low key sliding by and would be a secondary pick for me (along with Elena) if I was wrong about any of the first three.
Music Box and

BBT

would most likely be collateral damage based on my reads right now.

But I'm confident at least 2/3 scum are here and I'd make a 2-5 trade any day of the week leaving Town in a 6 on 1 advantage if I didn't net all three scum with my move.

This is an interesting post.

If Sesq is scum, no one bussed?

If Sesq is town, was this a 100% town wagon?

[Toto]

Riley why are you voting Hawk? What do you think about sesqs case against you?

Riley, mb, hawk, and sesq who is quiet today. At least 2 of you are town. You need to start participating in the conversation so we can you out. Scumhunt a little biy.

[Toto]

Can Hawk, Hapa or anyone else clarify why you are clearing Elena from MoL associatives? is that just because she voted MoL?

Also, does anyone town read Riley other than Hiraki? if so, why?

[Toto]

Sure.

Two reasons:

1) This post and its context just doesn't make a lot of sense from a mafia perspective.

VOTE: Magna
The fact people have said they'd lynch this but haven't voted here is just outright strange so let's see if people put their money where there mouth is

Elena is pretty inactive for the last 48-72 hours of the game, so much so that she completely misses the Lowell wagon. To be mafia, you have to believe that Elena turned down voting

Nebula

or

Lowell

, and instead call suspicion on a scumbuddy unprovoked at the end of Day 1.

Sesq is also a viable wagon at this time, but again no matter what sesq's alignment, Elena's actions don't make sense from a mafia perspective. If Sesq is mafia, we have to believe that Elena is diverting attention to Sesq by pushing Magna... which what? If Sesq is town, Elena is passing up a mislynch opportunity and further tunneling magna.

2) The Day 2 continued suspicion of Magna.

VOTE: Magna
I have more chance of lynching this over BBT

Again, we have to believe that instead of taking the easy Nebula mislynch opportunity, Elena goes after her scumbuddy instead. She does mention that she could lynch Nebula, but never really attempts to place her vote there. Her concern is pushing Magna/BBT instead, both of whom seemed town-read by most players. If you're mafia, that's a horrible plan if you're trying to survive. There's no survival instinct that I would expect from mafia here.

1) You are forgetting that the case against Lowell is that he forgot Elena in his town reads, and Elena being his scum-buddy was thrown around. So, scum!Elena votes MoL as an attempt to make it look like a chainsaw defense of Lowell. I've done this as scum and it is quite effective in getting the townie being wagoned lynched.

2) Did she really push Magna at all to be lynched? She just placed the vote there and didn't really try to convince anyone to vote there from what I can see.

[Toto]

Mkay. Those interactions do look genuine. What's your case against Music?

[Toto]

K, Riley would be great if you could get in here and explain your reads.

Where did Elena go?

[Toto]

PoE says that if Sesq is scum MB is not Scum. Only came for MB being scum involves Sesq being town and Elena being scum I think.

Can you explain this PoE?

[Toto]

Parallel to that MoL pushed Nebula and derailed a Sesq wagon so if Sesq is town then MoL had no reason to flip onto Lowell besides he us to fester over this later in the day (it's unlikely if you think about it). Elena's attacks on MoL would buy her interesting amounts of town cred because no one else despite saying they would vote MoL votes him before Elena. This mix of town cred gained here and the very subtle non engagement between MB and Elena makes me think that maybe they could be scum buddies because I don't see one of them being town and the other scum but this is more gut than logic. I don't think either of them are scum but I can be proven wrong by flipping town on Sesq it just doesn't make much sense to me otherwise but I'm probably missing something.

Why not consider MB + Riley if Sesq is town?

[Toto]

I 100% think there's 2 scum in Riley/Hawk/MB/Sesq though unless someone has something they wanna share

I'm converging here too.

There is only 6 possible pairs if that is true, and I think I can discard some by their interactions.

[Toto]

Sounds reasonable. But please no one hammer without

intent

today in any case.

[Toto]

Regardless, I keep coming back to Mafia Sesq no matter how I draw up the teams.

Can you walk me through this thought process? It doesn't line up with mine.

[Toto]

I tried analyzing the night kills but didn't see anything out of that.

Both kills were attempt to kill the JK from what I can tell.

[Toto]

Sesq, outside of associate tells what do you find scummy about Riley, MB or Hawk?

[Toto]

Riley, why do you think Sesq is town?

[Toto]

Sesq, your wagon analysis doesn't include an actual analysis. What's your conclusion based on the facts?

[Toto]

BBT (town), LUV (town), lowell (town), hiraki (town), mb (undetermined), nebula (town), toto (undetermined).

Why is Hiraki town?

[Toto]

Yeah I don't think Scum was on your wagon Sesq.

Why not?

[Toto]

Riley's post on TRing Sesq isn't scum aligned.

Is this regardless of Sesq alignment?

[Toto]

Hiraki, do you have other scum reads other than Sesq&Hawk? what's your read on MB?

[Toto]

2. If Sesq is town I don't see why MB taking such Parallel reads as Magna. He could have sheeped onto Nebula.

3. Hikari for similar vein.

Hmph.

Wouldn't scum want to take different sides to fuel more fire in TvT, and also distance themselves?

[Toto]

Well, we are probs still going to lynch you today tbh. Just want to make sure these guys think things through while we are both dead.

[Toto]

Hapa, how confident are you that Hiraki vs Magna was not theater?

[Toto]

Hapa, it's time to vote. I'm not voting Riley.

Why is it time to vote?

[Toto]

Well, for one, Hawk has posted a lot more now. How does that new content impact your read on him?

[Toto]

Sesq: I think that their tone is super duper like frustrated town!!! so I'm moving them to townlean for now!!!!

If this is your answer and Riley has called out Sesq-scum for the entire game and then is now calling Sesq town based off of a gut read, can you give me any reasonably good scum rationale for pulling off such a move?

If you look at the post above, she changed her mind on D2, before voting Neb. So she is just being consistent with her D2 read. It would be more suspicious to change again now. Plus keeping town!Sesq alive for Lylo is not bad for mafia.

I understand this behavior is not necessarily mafia aligned, but are you saying it is town aligned?

[Toto]

She changed her read on D2, not D4, though.

[Toto]

so the case on riley is that she knows Sesq is town and therefore changed her read on D2 in order to combat this very argument on D4?

Huh?

It was you who brought up the argument as part of your town read. I'm just pointing out why your argument is wrong. It has more to do with you than Riley herself. Like I said, her read and read not-change is NAI. It is You who is trying to portray that falsehood as a town read criteria.

So, is there anything else to your Riley town read?

[Toto]

Hikari did vote sesq upon entry.

Magna was saying that nebula is scum and sesq is town.
Hiraki said neb was town and sesq was scum. He sounded very certain abouth both.

Music just said that he didnt want to vote nebula today, and voted sesq instead. That was the l-2 vote.

Hawk, not to say that your conclusion is wrong, but you seem to make too many assumptions about how scum will play and how coordinated they actually are, specially on D1. That narrow thinking looks a bit forced. Have you ever played as mafia?

[Toto]

Riley

. If you are town you need to get in here and start talking. Your case on Hawk is that he was doing nothing but now he is doing something. How does that affect your read? Do you have other scumreads than Hawk? Can you explain your Hawk scum read beyond what you already said?

MB

. You are also very quiet, I don't see anything wrong in your ISO but that could be just careful mafia.

Let's give some more time Riley to talk,

[Toto]

Whats your point there ^^^^

[Toto]

So, Hapa and Hiraki, you both moved your votes from Hawk to Sesq. Has your read on Hawk changed at all, if so can you point out why?

[Toto]

Ok, the reason I keep repeating that question is because I find it weird your reads don't change throughout the game. At all.

[Toto]

Anyways, something to think about over the 2 day break.

See you in dead thread Sesq.

VOTE: Sesq

[Toto]

Also, if this flips green. Please lynch Hiraki tomorrow. Thanks.

[Toto]

Also, if it flips Red, someone must have bussed Sesq at some point. So think about that too. (i.e. Hiraki / MB)

[Toto]

Or at least it is very likely.

[Toto]

It's a pretty bold claim to throw out that my reads have never changed and then just leave it there, with no proof or anything.

You had same reads since you joined. Hawk and Sesq. You also suspected magna but never said you scumread him and never voted him.

Enjoy.

[Toto]

Oh and don't forget your opportunistic jump on Lowell. A wagon lead by one of your main suspects.

I can understand Neb cause he was a doctor and didn't want to get lynched. But you?

[Toto]

Wow. Now you want to talk to me after having responded one liners or non-answers all game. Are you nervous?.

[Toto]

Also, if it flips Red, someone must have bussed Sesq at some point. So think about that too. (i.e. Hiraki / MB)

You mean one of the two who've been most consistent in wanting her lynched the whole game?

Yes.

[Toto]

That is talking. Thats the longest post you had as answer to mine in the whole game. Why do it now and not before?

[Toto]

It would be pretty weird if I TR'd Hawk in D1...oh! I did! (930) MoI's reaction in 1238ish (I quote it around ISO 67 - phone posting for twilight) soldifies that SR so thanks for letting me look back.

Never voted MoI because none of you suspected MoI. Started to distrust myself. If you're going to imply that not voting confirmed scum on the lynch that took less than 24 hours was scum intentioned, then I have nothing more to say.

Your description of the Lowell wagon is a crude mischaracterization of the facts. With a 40+ D1 and a stalemate between Sesq and Nebula, did you expect me to just throw my hands up and vote Sesq? Because that's dumb - vote MoI who multiple people had town reads on and definitely couldn't get a wagon on? Nope,that's pretty dumb too. How about lynch for the sake of getting reads? That's pretty normal - optimal would be this lynch on D1 but that's OK. What's not OK is the implication that it was somewhere that was perfect for my vote.

I SR you for a lot of D1 but you've been pretty consistent in that VI read. I'm glad you are definitely doing your due diligence (by reading) and definitely being objective in your reads! It's truly showing!

Are you frustrated because Im attacking you for bad reasons?

[Toto]

K, I just read 930 and the first part seems doubcast Hawk but you do townread him in the end.

If Sesq is red do you think someone bussed? (I.e music box?)

[Toto]

Music box seems to disagree.

[Toto]

Your description of the Lowell wagon is a crude mischaracterization of the facts. With a 40+ D1 and a stalemate between Sesq and Nebula, did you expect me to just throw my hands up and vote Sesq? Because that's dumb - vote MoI who multiple people had town reads on and definitely couldn't get a wagon on? Nope,that's pretty dumb too. How about lynch for the sake of getting reads? That's pretty normal - optimal would be this lynch on D1 but that's OK. What's not OK is the implication that it was somewhere that was perfect for my vote.

You leaving Sesq wagon was what really made the wagon unfeasible on D1. Bbt was the only other person leaving sesq on that wagon too.

Elena did vote MoI btw. Do you think that was town dumb too? or was there an agenda there?

[Toto]

Actually didnt you used to think me+sesq were scum partners back then? Why leave sesq and join a counter wagon with me and magna?

[Toto]

How the fuck am I supposed to know if you are happy? Two days left is a looong time and you shoukd know that based on your join date.

[Toto]

And Sesq wagon was larger when you joined Lowell. If I remember correctly.

[Toto]

And Sesq wagon was larger when you joined Lowell.

Yup! But I'm sure you knew that it was by one vote that wouldn't matter at this point right? Oh! And that Sesq and Nebula were between L-3 and L-1 for...

33 pages

Why wouldn't it matter?

You were one of the major forces behind a Sesq lynch on D1. Your vote change was

PIVOTAL

in making 1) Sesq's D1 lynch not happening anymore. 2) Making Lowell lynch the only viable alternative.

You keep saying that Sesq's lynch was not going to happen but

it was your vote change that made it so.

Ok, so you were not happy about the Lowell lynch and would have prefered Sesq instead.

Yet you joined the counter wagon with me and magna. Magna who you thought was scummy, and me who you thought was Sesq's partner, your primary scum read.

And what information did the lynch gave you? Why didn't you vote me or Magna on D2 after lowell flipped green.

Where were you wondering in the thread if we derailed the wagon?

(also, see how I learned to use

italics

,

bolds

, and

underscript

at the same time)

[Toto]

I don't think it's unreasonable in general. Please do argue my points.

[Toto]

Nope, I've conceded. If you think that changing an L-3 vote 2 days before the deadline for an acceptable wagon is bad then there's our grievances. Glad to know that again, you started this conversation in Twilight and that it stemmed from me "never changing reads"

Like I said, you are generalizing. I'm NOT saying changing wagons late in D1 to make sure there is a viable lynch is bad in GENERAL.

I'm saying that in your case given from whom you changed and who you decided to vote along with, based on your stated reads at the time, doesn't make much sense. I can understand that if it was a last minute thing but 2 days is not a last minute thing.

Moreover, Sesq wagon was viable UNTIL you changed your vote.

It was your vote that made it non-viable.

Also, the information you got from the wagon doesn't line up with your D2 start:

I haven't really read (mostly skimmed) but let's try this for size:

Vote: Hawk

[Toto]

I can follow this.

Unvote, Vote: Hawk

Nebula's flip incriminates Hawk just as much as it does to MoI.

What a coincidence.

[Toto]

Hikari: "Wait, I voted Hawk without actually posting a case, let me backtrack and start attacking him so it looks more natural".

[Toto]

On a side note, Sesq's disappearance and him posting elsewhere makes me more confident this will flip red.

[Toto]

I meant her, sorry.

[Toto]

Hmmm. That's a weird kill.

[Toto]

Well played guys and well deserved win.