Open 713: Jungle Republic [Game Over]

[BuJaber]

VOTE: paradox

[BuJaber]

Admittedly this is my first time playing with you.
But townreading me makes no sense and adding soft to it feels like a cop out. "Like come on guys it wasn't really a townread". I shouldn't be anything more or less than a nullread.

But this continued discussion between you and paradox is intriguing.
If I were forced to choose I'd say paradox is scum here not you but it's still too early for me to feel comfortable with that read.

My vote was an RVS prodge honestly. I skimmed over the initial posts and I wasn't sure when game started.

[BuJaber]

I'm on phone so I don't mess up the quotes. So this'll be quote-less.

@korina huh.. I don't get your last question? Skitter's theory is far-fetched for sure but the advantage for scum!thor is obvious.

@thor
I agree maybe it feels weird that I would call something you did scummy and yet townread you in the same post. But that is how I feel. Town can do a lot of scummy things. I weighed the scummy thing you did (imo) against the townie things and the townie things outweigh it.

To your second point - maybe the soft read is implied. However my point was townreading me based on just a naked RVS vote stood out to me in a major way. Like why would you even bother stating a read on me there anyway?. The read itself is weird and scummy. Therefore when you add soft to it it sounds like you know that you might be called out on it and thus adding soft makes it 'less' scummy in the sense that you can play it off as basically just a feeling you got (which is probably the case anyway). Now since it is a soft read and I do actually believe that part of it it still brings us back to what prompted you stating that read in the first place. Basically it feels like you did something scummy but want people to dismiss it as unimportant but if it truly was unimportant why did you do it?

As for "being forced to choose": whenever two people go at it in a mafia game and accuse each other it naturally puts the other players in a situation where they have to decide whether it is SvT or TvS or TvT or SvS. I decided it was T (you) v S (paradox). Players can't really ignore a fight because a fight is an elephant in the room. It needs to be resolved in some way. Either the two sides reach some sort of conclusion and it stops or one of them gets lynched or attention turns away to somebody else and the fight is suspended to deal with the new issue.

[BuJaber]

My intro was supposed to read "I'm on the phone so I don't want to mess up quotes...."

[BuJaber]

@korina huh.. I don't get your last question? Skitter's theory is far-fetched for sure but the advantage for scum!thor is obvious.

That's interesting, as I don't actually think it is.
What's the advantage for me if I'm scum to put myself into a 1 v 1 situation?

@thor
I agree maybe it feels weird that I would call something you did scummy and yet townread you in the same post. But that is how I feel. Town can do a lot of scummy things. I weighed the scummy thing you did (imo) against the townie things and the townie things outweigh it.

Actually it wasn't the town read - it was that you offered a soft town read while also calling me out for giving a soft town read.
You left yourself as much of a backdoor as I did. So why is it when I did it = questionable, but yet you're doing it also?
That's the double standard.

Like why would you even bother stating a read on me there anyway?

It helps me remember what I was thinking at any given point when I'm assessing the game later.

Fair enough I misinterpretted what you were saying to me earlier.

As for the advantage it's basically what skitter said in 68. If you are scum you can probably win the argument, get people to lynch whoever you choose to engage (paradox in this case) while also appearing like town because "where is the town motivation?" As wilky and others have asked.

You've already secured a town read from most players even those arguing that you could be scum. So even if you don't get paradox lynched a scum!you would have gained a lot of value from the fight you instigated.

[BuJaber]

You missed the point. I wasn't saying you are more likely to be scum.
I was simply saying that if you were scum what you did could have been a successful gambit to mislynch a townie. Skitter is going too far and saying you actually are scum because of this. As for me I only agree with him on that a scum motivation does exist for doing it.

I am seeing a level of motivation from paradox that I have never seen (or heard about) before.
We have 5 anti town roles. I am quite confident that lynching a lurker would be favorable to town in this setup.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: not mafia

[BuJaber]

Didn't finish point about paradox: I want to see more of it. This should be encouraged.

[BuJaber]

It is opportunistic... because NM always plays like this?

What kind of answer is that? And why are you even answering for wilky?

I agree NM is null (though I'm still convinced there's a good chance of finding scum among the lurkers - even if people disagree) but how wilky jumped to that conclusion is beyond me. 2 votes is barely a wagon, and there were other choices with 2 votes too. NM can't possibly know that wilky would be the lynch today it's far too early.

[BuJaber]

NM so you scumread Thor?
Why? Why not?

Upon rereading I have comvinced myself that skitter v Thor is definitely TvS. Or in this game possibly SvW. So I'll be voting there and only there. Whether you like it or not Thor you made it binary.

VOTE: Skitter

[BuJaber]

Yup 5 scum. Definitely some among the lurkers. But how do you pick one lurker over the other? Skitter Thor is 50-50. Lurker vote is more random.

Also by saying I am only voting for 2 people I give others a false sense of security. But yeah I'm pretty sure I am only voting one of those 2.

[BuJaber]

Serious question what is worse letting NM coast because he's NM or lynching him early because he's NM?

[BuJaber]

@beefster I could swear you quoted skitter saying "why is it opportunistic"

[BuJaber]

I must have misread it.

Okay I'm day 1 lynch. Unforgivable mistake.

[BuJaber]

And if it is somehow proven that you edited the comment that should be an insta ban.

[BuJaber]

Serious question what is worse letting NM coast because he's NM or lynching him early because he's NM?

Letting him coast.

Wrong imo.
One is not worse than the other. If a player doesn't engage in any game as either alignment that player is useless to the game and his flip becomes a coin flip.

What happens when he rolls a PR in a game and gets lynched because he's NM?

Criticize his play, call him out on it, blacklist him from your games, request he be replaced but don't just lynch and hope to hit scum.

[BuJaber]

Quick thoughts...

I'm getting strong Town vibes from Beef, Thor, Espeonage. I see reasons why people might interpret Thor's play as aggressive scum, but I don't really get the sense that this is likely to be the case.

I don't really care for the wagons on wilky and skitter. There's been a few pings here and there from both of them, but nothing I see really stands out as a strong case for either. Feeling TvT on Thor/skitter at the moment.

Null on Fanta and NM. More content needed from both.

Korina is nullscum. Very little content, and her tone feels kind of strange to me.

Golden Paradox has been giving me some weird vibes. 80 is awful. I get the vibe that Paradox is deliberately focusing on unimportant issues rather than actually engaging the thread.

BuJaber looking like scum to me. I think Espeonage and Beef are making a good case here; I don't like the deliberate attempts to force skitter vs Thor, and earlier paradox vs Thor as a TvS. I don't have strong reads on skitter or paradox, but I am suspicious of this framing. I am struggling to see really good reasons why Town would be so intent on narrowing the lynch pool in this manner.

I think Montosh is scum as per 90

We'll meet again at game end when we find out there is one scum (at least) between thor, skitter and paradox.

[BuJaber]

I tunnel when I think I'm right. And I think I'm right.

But let's not forget I wanted to lynch a lurker so no I'm not narrowing the pool as much as you seem to imply.

[BuJaber]

One scum between Laser, espeo, and beef by association.
Game is too easy.

[BuJaber]

To be fair I'm at a work meeting and wrote that before your post but submitted after.

[BuJaber]

Oh and the cherry on top would be when NM flips town this game lmao. YFW.

[BuJaber]

My reading prowess is unmatched. Unmatched.

[BuJaber]

This is a hyperactive game right?

[BuJaber]

I declare my support for NM to win this game.

[BuJaber]

I misread his quote and it had a direct effect on him thinking I'm scum because he thought it was fabricated.

It is impossible to prove that I am telling the truth and it is very difficult for anyone to believe my claim. Therefore I am day 1 lynch.

I do want to point out that you should pay attention to the speed in which my wagon is growing and what that implies. 2 people in the game wouldn't vote each other and 3 wouldn't vote each other. Somebody being voted by everyone who posted is incredibly suspicious.

[BuJaber]

BuJaber's reactions to minimal pressure are damning. Lynch nao.

Your basis for voting me in the first place is wrong. Now you're just trying to make the narrative fit.

@skitter - I'm tunneling on the fact that one scum among you and thor.

Why did I choose you over him? Because my gut reaction was to town read him. I have since had doubts about that, but your arguments against him are so imaginative I can't help but vote you first as I'm giving you a slight edge on being the scum. If you flip town I'd want to lynch thor obviously. But yeah it would prove this isn't a case of SvW.

[BuJaber]

On NM, I think it's not a good idea to let him coast along for too long. It's what he did the last game I played with him, where we were both scum, and he was very good at not getting too noticed and having people think he was town because his play was consistent with his meta and therefore NAI.

If he actually engages at some point then we can get some reads but if he continues like this it basically becomes impossible to read him.

That is exactly my point.
Espeo wants us to lynch rather than let him coast. But if everyone is in agreement that NM doing nothing is NAI then the odds of him playing scum or wolf or town are equal. It is basically just a shot in the dark.

We let him live for a while and maybe you get more information to act on.

[BuJaber]

My case on me boils down to three things:

1) I misread a quote.

Human error.

2) I said I would only vote for one of two people.

True, but it takes 7 to lynch and I would be more open minded if I saw that I won't get my way. This isn't my first game, I understand how lynches work. Taking that statement literally is a bit naive or insulting to me. Also I change my mind. A lot. It is part of my process. It isn't AI. There are multiple games in my history to show you this.

3) I wanted to lynch a lurker then switched my vote really quickly

See above. Also I reread the skitter/thor conversation between those two votes.

If you got other reasons let's hear em. We have two weeks.

[BuJaber]

Didn't we play together? I'm pretty sure I changed my mind so many times in our game together. Why is it scummy this time?

People would lynch me for misreading the quote because nobody has any reason to believe that I did. I made a mistake and therefore it makes for me to get lynched. It's a game of mafia. People shouldn't take my word for it just in case. It also sets a bad precedent if I am forgiven for that.

I don't think scum would bus because in this game I don't think it's a good strategy for them, appearing too town paints you as a target for the other scum party. Therefore they would only do it when they have to. A few votes in with 10+ days left until deadline is not enough to need to bus.

As for the NM thing I have no problem with someone lynching NM because he is one of the lurkers here, but lynching NM specifically because he's NM and will likely coast all game with barely any posts is wrong. When I voted for him he didn't have any posts at the time he was the most obvious lurker. I have no way of picking one lurker over the other so I just picked the first one I identified as such. You see the difference between that reason to lynch NM and espeonage's reason to lynch NM?

My sequence of posts was awful because espeonage's tone rubbed me the wrong way. At the time it felt very dismissive of my reads which I think are pretty good. I'm convinced I've got the right pools for 2/5 scum at least if not more. Also I was at work. Not the right mindset to have a discussion.

For the record espeo I know I overreacted. You are calling me scum of course you will dismiss my reads it has nothing to do with me personally.

[BuJaber]

The above is directed at wilky for the most part.

[BuJaber]

And if we played this setup 100 times I would still lock myself on two people if I think there's a strong chance of finding scum there. All I meant was that locking myself on two people doesn't mean I won't change my vote if I can't get a wagon going. The game is made up of more than one scum I'd settle for someone else.

Sounds like you missed my post earlier. I only wanted to vote a lurker in the first place because I also had another theory that there is a good chance of finding scum between the lurkers. I didn't have any particular one in mind. But Espeo seems to imply that NM lurking is by itself a damning thing, and imo that's wrong.

When did my read progress to a SvS? I always thought it was TvS between them, but there is a chance it's SvW.
The 2/5 is explained in the posts I made earlier: (actually 2/6 I mentioned.. 1 from thor/skitter/paradox, 1 from laser, espeo, beef) but it could also be more - say 3 or 4 from those 6, but that's statistically a much lower chance.

[BuJaber]

Aaaah that's a really good point. I didn't count how many players left that aren't in my pool. Just assumed it was a lot but I didn't narrow down the lynch as much as I thought.

There's still the chance there could be more than 1/3 - 1/3 but yes for now let's go with one of those 5.

Based on meta and tone I'd say wilky is town here.

I'll read the posts of the rest to decide between them. Though at worst we'd have 2/4 of those being scum.
UNVOTE:

[BuJaber]

Korina, Fanta, and NM all posted pretty much nothing. I don't like Korina's "okay going back to lurking" and I got the impression he's paying too much attention to not appear as a lurker instead of actually moving the game forward.

VOTE: Korina

[BuJaber]

People need to post now. I refuse to be lynched just because half the players waited until the last day and there wasn't any time to change the wagon.

Korina playing 3 games is pretty small you need more I thought it would be a lot but it's very underwhelming. Site meta is slow for most games so it's not that hard to catch up. On average days obviously. When RL is kicking your butt or you would have no internet access there is VLA. And the prodding policy of the site is quite lenient.

[BuJaber]

Are you a wolf beef? You're too interested in ending the day early.

[BuJaber]

Sorry you feel that way.
My frustration is genuine. The level of frustration varies with mood.

[BuJaber]

I get that you think I am scum but you keep adding things to the list of offences that are simply not there. Someone could be scum but not check all the boxes for your definition of scummy. You are interpretting every post I make as scummy which is literally impossible. No scum would do everything in a scummy way.

[BuJaber]

I wasn't calling you naive I was saying it would be naive of me. Stating you only want to lynch 2 people is a strategy. But stubbornly sticking to these 2 people would be naive. Therefore taking it literally is you calling me naive. But I concede I'm clearly in the wrong here. Everyone agrees it was scummy so it must be scummy I won't do it in future games.

As for the speed it was within 5 hours or so that 3 people declared they agreed with espeo. Laser didn't actually vote for me but he stated willingness. Fanta especially comes in votes for the hot wagon and leaves yet again.

[BuJaber]

Somebody asked me about the wolf accusation and not generic scum. It's because scum don't have NK they don't have anything to hurry for.

[BuJaber]

BuJaber's reactions to minimal pressure are damning. Lynch nao.

And this what gave me the impression he wants the day over quick.

[BuJaber]

Apart from the quote what else pings you about thor?

I can't decide who's more likely to be scum between thor/skitter.

[BuJaber]

You can't possibly be still asking me about NM?

Here's the whole story summarized again.

I said I had a theory that there is definitely scum lurking in the game. So I wanted to vote there. NM hadn't posted at all at the time so it was the most obvious choice. So I voted NM for lurking.

Espeo later says NM coasts as scum and gets away with it so we should lynch him.

I argued that NM lurking is NAI and so he would do it either alignment and there's no hurry in lynching him particularly if it's just a 50-50 with him. I changed my vote because at that time there were other things to react to and a lurker vote didn't make sense anymore.

So yeah we both voted but for different reasons.

In the same game I am getting voted for narrowing my vote pool and for changing my vote a lot. Make up your mind.

[BuJaber]

To be honest if you two are gonna have such wildy conflicting opinions it's gonna be tough for us to keepp you around.

But as far as I am aware this is my first experience playing with a hydra so if this is pretty standard I'll adapt.

Side note - are hydras always disclosed to the players? I know the mod has to know but does it have to be mentioned in opening post?


Beef I'm not sure why you thought you had to respond to that maybe you misinterpreted what my post was responding to. Anyway it's irrelevant I think now and what you said makes perfect sense from town!you's perspective.

[BuJaber]

@mod - my access might be limited until saturday. I should still be able to post once a day easily but this is a heads up in case I can't.

- noted

[BuJaber]

Okay has to be town That is just too much. If you do do this as scum then good fucking job. That is far beyond any effort scum should even put in so early in the game because getting townread now doesn't guarantee you are townread the whole game. So if all of this to be just an act to gain town cred then it would honestly be a waste of time. You didn't even just respond to all of thor's points. You specifically isolated each and every one. Maybe it's just me but I just can't see this coming from scum.
But as far as I'm concerned with thor I feel like the narrative you're getting from thor seems really good in theory but it just seems too perfect and conspiracy-like for me to believe he did all of this intentionally just to paint paradox as scummy and paint himself as town. It requires quite a bit of planning before game even started.


What I think is more damning is actually his continuation of the argument. He's attacking your posts based on the wrong things. And like you showed he is misinterpretting or maybe even fabricating ypur arguments to make them seem inconsistent. It's just a bad way to defend himself overall. I was wrong before. You're the one more likely to be town and he's more likely to be scum. I'd rather you both just drop the whole thing now.
HOWEVER there is a slight chance that you yourself are doing the same thing with thor that you're accusing him of doing to paradox. I mean I still think you're 99% town but for this 1% chance I don't want to vote for either of you yet. I'd hate to be manipulated into lynching someone.

I read everything korina wrote and then felt very disappointed by the conclusion. You set us up for a much bigger reveal. I also don't like when people do the whole jokey "I'm the most townie town there is" and put themselves on top of their townreads. I know that some townies do it but it always rubs me the wrong way and makes me very suspicious. Keeping my vote here.

[BuJaber]

Skitter's name is missing from my first sentence.

[BuJaber]

Sorry I didn't read your pronoun. Username kinda sounded male so I went with he. I'll try to get it right from now on.

Yes fine it happened. We can move on now.
Would you have an issue with voting/lynching Korina? Or does it have to be Thor in your opinion?

[BuJaber]

BTW wilky said he hasn't reread yet but he's happy with his vote on me.

Struck me as odd.

[BuJaber]

@thor - pronoun discussion is irrelevant to the game I ignored it.

@wilky - the difference is basically this: Espeo picked NM for lurking. I picked a lurker who happened to be NM.

I literally wanted to vote a lurker, went to the first page to look at list of players alive and NM was the first name in the list that I didn't remember seeing in the last few posts I read. So if the mod had ordered the list differently it would have been someone else.

[BuJaber]

And the answer to your second question is in my ISO. Laser pointed out that by isolating 2 scum between those 6 players that leaves 3 scum in the remaining 5 (6 minus me). So it's statistically better to go for one of them.

[BuJaber]

@thor yes. I saw that it was a pronoun discussion so I skipped over it and forgot the names being discussed.

@mod I'd like to be replaced please. I'm sorry.
Clearly there is a language barrier that I can't penetrate or wilky is being intentionally thick.

[BuJaber]

Yes I am. I'd rather replace than suicide and I just don't want to play this game anymore because I can't continue explaining the same things over and over and over again. It's not even an argument of what is scummy or not anymore as you can see. We're arguing on what the fuck my words actually mean.

[BuJaber]

Well played mafia. I'm sorry I got emotional and had to replace out.
Excellent job bussing.

I still think my vote on NM is completely different than Esp's vote on NM.