Mini Normal 1996: Floral Mafia [Endgame!]

[Ausuka]

Notes so far;
38 from Maria is really reachy.
44 feels pretty scummy too. 59/63 is a huge overreaction to the push at that point.
I townread Cedrick and katherine.
Creature hasn't really posted enough to be sorted yet. If this keeps going for a while he can be town.
What kts did can come from either alignment and I haven't found anything to sort him with.

Extra-Special Townbloc of Happy Friends

Ausuka, Cedrick

Candidates For Promotion

Katherine

Watchlist For Meaniness

brassherald, Creature, Gamma Emerald, Mumble, Killthestory, implosion

Wanted for Bullying and General Sad Crimes

MariaR, Tchill13

VOTE: Tchill

[Ausuka]

Alright, Creature can be town.

[Ausuka]

gut

[Ausuka]

Luca Blight can also join the townclub. If there's scum on Tchill it's Gamma.

pedit: If we lynched Tchill and he flipped scum, I probably wouldn't townread KTS for it. Them being scumbuddies could explain him continuing to hard-townread KTS even after KTS himself dismissed his point, but that's kinda meh. He'd stay null.

[Ausuka]

Luca Blight can also join the townclub. If there's scum on Tchill it's Gamma.

pedit:

If we lynched Tchill and he flipped scum, I probably wouldn't townread KTS for it.

Them being scumbuddies could explain him continuing to hard-townread KTS even after KTS himself dismissed his point, but that's kinda meh. He'd stay null.

The Luca tr comes out of no where

Where is it supposed to come from? It's page 8. What he posted makes sense and appears to come from a town mindset.

"Oh look a towny who made a wall post that seems to have reasoning lets tr that"

...What I did was literally just townreading Luca. That's it. There's absolutely no reason why that means I'm scum here. Like maybe if you were scumreading me for not giving reasoning I could at least understand it. But what you're doing here just makes no sense at all.

The bolded is interesting cause the first thing that came to mind was "Partner with Tchill who knows he'll flip scum and is trying to not credit KTS"

... what. KTS isn't even voting Tchill. No, he doesn't get towncred because he pushed him for like a page at the start of a game.

I'm pretty happy voting this for now actually.
VOTE: MariaR

[Ausuka]

Luca Blight can also join the townclub. If there's scum on Tchill it's Gamma.

pedit:

If we lynched Tchill and he flipped scum, I probably wouldn't townread KTS for it.

Them being scumbuddies could explain him continuing to hard-townread KTS even after KTS himself dismissed his point, but that's kinda meh. He'd stay null.

The Luca tr comes out of no where

Where is it supposed to come from? It's page 8. What he posted makes sense and appears to come from a town mindset.

"Oh look a towny who made a wall post that seems to have reasoning lets tr that"

...What I did was literally just townreading Luca. That's it. There's absolutely no reason why that means I'm scum here. Like maybe if you were scumreading me for not giving reasoning I could at least understand it. But what you're doing here just makes no sense at all.

The bolded is interesting cause the first thing that came to mind was "Partner with Tchill who knows he'll flip scum and is trying to not credit KTS"

... what. KTS isn't even voting Tchill. No, he doesn't get towncred because he pushed him for like a page at the start of a game.

I'm pretty happy voting this for now actually.
VOTE: MariaR

1)hey look you finally posted reasoning on your luca tr as you should've done in the first place! It's a start.
2)I can think you're scum for any reason I want I don't get how you think not making sense=scum
3) Also should've been stated in the first post
Well at least I got to squeeze something out of you

1) I mean what I posted was basically just "he's guttown." I mean if you want to be nitpicky and say you should announce that your reasoning is gut whenever you post a read without reasoning stated you can do that, but that's implied.
2) Town think real things with actual thoughts, scum try to fake that. This is like the most common way I get scumreads.
3) Why should I have said that? Gamma just asked me if my read would change, I told him it wouldn't really, which is true.

[Ausuka]

2) Well yeah, I'm saying the thoughts that you express in this thread never happened. You're not exactly going to post what you actually thought when you're scum, are you? Of course you thought something, but what I'm saying is that I don't think the read/thought you posted is real and not fabricated.

3) It isn't shading to say that I don't townread someone.

[Ausuka]

Nah, that's not how burden of proof works. If I don't think someone should get credit for something, just because there's no reason they should, I don't have to go prove that.

I do feel better about you after this exchange though.
UNVOTE:

[Ausuka]

Oh sorry about that, missed your question.
I didn't think of it as a bus, but rather as "if Tchill is town." At the time I thought your vote on Tchill kinda looked like you were dragging up as many points as you could on Tchill but reading your ISO again I don't really think that anymore.

[Ausuka]

guys... i get you think tchill is scum, i saw that, too, but i think he's just an inexperienced townie. a lot of the stuff he says comes across as scummy, but i looked it over and realized the guy really doesn't know how to play mafia. pls don't lynch him.

also hi luca! didn't realize you were in this game. hi maria, too.

cedrick, luca, maria, creature, tchill, all v.
katherine, gamma slight v.
feeling implosion, mumble, ausoka as w.

rest i still gotta sort

Very odd of you to defend/undermine me when I only have 2 votes on me. Are you that worried I'm gonna be lynched? Or do you NEED to get the point across that you believe I'm town and I'm terrible? Because if you want people to think I'm town because I'm terrible you don't want people listening to my reasoning. Why would you make sure that didn't happen?

Yeah Tchill is town for this. KTS is helping Tchill here and Tchill is provoking him in this post. I think if Tchill was scum he'd probably just take the TR, instead of being annoyed at KTS for a percieved insult.

[Ausuka]

Luca Blight can also join the townclub. If there's scum on Tchill it's Gamma.

pedit:

If we lynched Tchill and he flipped scum, I probably wouldn't townread KTS for it.

Them being scumbuddies could explain him continuing to hard-townread KTS even after KTS himself dismissed his point, but that's kinda meh. He'd stay null.

The Luca tr comes out of no where

Where is it supposed to come from? It's page 8. What he posted makes sense and appears to come from a town mindset.

"Oh look a towny who made a wall post that seems to have reasoning lets tr that"

...What I did was literally just townreading Luca. That's it. There's absolutely no reason why that means I'm scum here. Like maybe if you were scumreading me for not giving reasoning I could at least understand it. But what you're doing here just makes no sense at all.

The bolded is interesting cause the first thing that came to mind was "Partner with Tchill who knows he'll flip scum and is trying to not credit KTS"

... what. KTS isn't even voting Tchill. No, he doesn't get towncred because he pushed him for like a page at the start of a game.

I'm pretty happy voting this for now actually.
VOTE: MariaR

i don't like ausuka voting Maria immediately after maria makes some pushes on ausuka.

Then tell me why the reasons I gave aren't likely to come from town.

[Ausuka]

Candidates For Promotion

Katherine

VOTE: ausuka
"I expect to townread this person more" doesn't seem like a real thought

Demote me

viewtopic.php?p=9544578#p9544578
viewtopic.php?p=9481817#p9481817
viewtopic.php?p=9545239#p9545239
viewtopic.php?p=9433366#p9433366

I was town in all of these games.

I'll make a proper post when I read the last few pages properly.

[Ausuka]

Ausuka's biggest issue is that right now I can 100% assure you she is not voting scum.

Meh. I'll vote when I have a scumread. Tchill is probably town and Maria definitely could be town here. IIRC we scumread each other last time we played together.

Therefore I have no problem with ending it early, if it's like in the first few RL days and I feel like it's another typical Day 1.

If you quickhammer, the process of D1/beginning of the game will just continue on Day 2- or Day 3 if town decides to lynch you for hammering. It's just a bad idea in general. But I guess at least we know now not to put anyone at L-1 until the end of the day.

I generally agree with KTS in that the katherine wagon was pretty bad before he last posted. Luca's 331 is bad in particular- the momentum on Tchill dies down and now he's jumping on Katherine, who he hasn't scumread before that post, because the wagon "seems like a decent bet."

Jesus, you guys are active.

Yeah, this. I'm usually one of the most active players in the game and I think I'm on the third lowest post count right now
That said 334 is really bad. Mumble just came in and voteparked the largest wagon. Like I understand not giving reasons for townreads but when you're voting a wagon you kinda gotta back it up.

I feel like the kts wall comes from town. That's just gut btw.

@kts; what is a "deepwolf" and a "powerwolf?" Obviously wolf = scum but I've never seen those two terms before.

I don't think scum would vote me in the current climate, plenty of players have come out townreading me and I feel like the general consesus here is that I'm town. I don't think scum would vote me, at least not with weak reasoning like in 355.

VOTE: Mumble
334 was really bad so I'm happy to vote here for now.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: implosion

Good vote.

If you're town, please don't do this.

[Ausuka]

Extra-Special Townbloc of Happy Friends

Ausuka, Creature, Tchill13

Candidates For Promotion

Cedrick, Katherine, killthestory, MariaR

Watchlist For Meaniness

implosion, Havo, brassherald, Gamma Emerald

Wanted for Bullying and General Sad Crimes

Luca Blight, Mumble

(If I tried to explain all these at once it would be a really long post and it'd also take a really long time to make, but I'll try and explain any read if someone wants me to.)

[Ausuka]

Extra-Special Townbloc of Happy Friends

Ausuka, Creature, Tchill13

Candidates For Promotion

Cedrick,

Katherine

, killthestory, MariaR

Watchlist For Meaniness

implosion

, Havo, brassherald, Gamma Emerald

Wanted for Bullying and General Sad Crimes

Luca Blight

, Mumble

(If I tried to explain all these at once it would be a really long post and it'd also take a really long time to make, but I'll try and explain any read if someone wants me to.)

What about the bolded names?

Sure.
For katherine, I gave my reasoning in 366 but it wasn't clear I was talking about Katherine I guess. "I don't think scum would vote me in the current climate, plenty of players have come out townreading me and I feel like the general consesus here is that I'm town. I don't think scum would vote me, at least not with weak reasoning like in 355."

Implo could go either way. His reads make sense but like they're not something a scum couldn't fake at this point.

Luca was in 366 too- "Luca's 331 is bad in particular- the momentum on Tchill dies down and now he's jumping on Katherine, who he hasn't scumread before that post, because the wagon "seems like a decent bet.""

[Ausuka]

So there are three votes on me and I have no idea why two of them exist. Beautiful.

[Ausuka]

creature is lock v

Unfortunately yes. Creature never flips scum here.

[Ausuka]

The two are entirely unrelated...but the former is something that I have been called out on in almost all my games, so I am actively working on it.

The latter has been done. Unless you think I need to make 86 posts to summarize where I'm at in the game...

Or maybe I should spend my time calling people bad and advocate for ending the day because I'm bored.

Meh.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Luca Blight

[Ausuka]

The latter has been done. Unless you think I need to make 86 posts to summarize where I'm at in the game...

The idea is that you make one and it explains why you think Implo is scum.

[Ausuka]

Ausuka's 446 - So I've gone from top tier to bottom based on my Katherine vote? Like, you disregard everything you found townie earlier for that? Bizarre.

You were never top-level. Assuming you're referring to 168 I meant townclub as in above null. My reads were always gonna be weak that early.

[Ausuka]

358 - Ausuka, I think you're removing the context a bit here - Katherine isn't finding your reads list scummy in itself - she thinks the fact

she

is your

'candidate for promotion

' is weird given she hadn't exactly done much at that time. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

Even in that case, the fact that I used it as my townlead term in all those towngames should be enough to prove it doesn't make me scum

[Ausuka]

336 - Ausuka is misrepping me a bit here - the momentum on Tchill dying down had no bearing on my Katherine vote (I clearly stated my reasons for flipping my read on Tchill). Why does it matter that I didn't scumread Katherine before that post? She had barely any content up until that point - hence '

decent bet

' rather than anything concrete to pin her as scum. Ausuka's comment that

'I don't think scum would vote me here'

is odd as well - I don't see her as well townread as she seems to believe, and it's not as if scum would only target popular wagons anyway.

So there's nothing to scumread him for? And that makes the wagon a "decent bet" because ???

I mean, I guess katherine could be scum, but I think generally, scum try to push popular targets. Obviously people are piling onto me now but I didn't see it happening then. If scum voted me they'd probably want enough reasoning to turn me into a wagon, and his post didn't have that.

[Ausuka]

creature is lock v

Unfortunately yes. Creature never flips scum here.

Ewwwwww this might be enough to justify a scumread on Ausuka, why "unfortunately"?

It'd be a LOT easier if I could scumread the person who is voting me and refuses to give reasons for it.

[Ausuka]

3. You have also used AtE yourself this game. It's quite understandable given the lack of reasoning behind people's votes against him.

I don't like Garciaing but kts has a point with point one. I recall getting suspected a lot in the past for leaps in my progression of reads, when I didn't take care to articulate how the read morphed. Implosion was in one of the earliest instances of this, Mini 1838. Honestly it's somewhat concerning he didn't think of that himself.[/quote]
So Implo is meant to remember mislynching you in a game a year and a half ago, and then thinking that that instance of being wrong about your progression makes progression an invalid reason to scumread someone?

[Ausuka]

3. You have also used AtE yourself this game. It's quite understandable given the lack of reasoning behind people's votes against him.

I don't like Garciaing but kts has a point with point one. I recall getting suspected a lot in the past for leaps in my progression of reads, when I didn't take care to articulate how the read morphed. Implosion was in one of the earliest instances of this, Mini 1838. Honestly it's somewhat concerning he didn't think of that himself.

So Implo is meant to remember mislynching you in a game a year and a half ago, and then thinking that that instance of being wrong about your progression makes progression an invalid reason to scumread someone?

fixed terrible formatting

[Ausuka]

I don't really get the Havo votes on page 25. On that page I can only see playstyle-related things.

[Ausuka]

I’m being completely genuine. So I don’t see from my perspective how anyone could argue that I’m not.

So I see anyone arguing that case as just a wee bit suspicious, ya know?

This however is
Why do you think that town can't mistakenly think you're not being genuine?

[Ausuka]

Tchill on page 16 is bleeding town IMO.

[Ausuka]

implosion Mar 10, 11:07pm Mar 12, 07:58pm 0 days 18 hours 24
Ausuka Mar 11, 04:49am Mar 13, 03:36am 0 days 10 hours 20
Mumble Mar 10, 09:50pm Mar 12, 08:39pm 0 days 17 hours 13
katherine Mar 10, 09:42pm Mar 12, 03:04am 1 day 11 hours 9

20 posts in 2-3 days isn't lurking.

[Ausuka]

3. You have also used AtE yourself this game. It's quite understandable given the lack of reasoning behind people's votes against him.

I don't like Garciaing but kts has a point with point one. I recall getting suspected a lot in the past for leaps in my progression of reads, when I didn't take care to articulate how the read morphed. Implosion was in one of the earliest instances of this, Mini 1838. Honestly it's somewhat concerning he didn't think of that himself.

So Implo is meant to remember mislynching you in a game a year and a half ago, and then thinking that that instance of being wrong about your progression makes progression an invalid reason to scumread someone?

Okay first of all just because I said I was pushed for something doesn't mean you can autopilot to "oh he got lynched that game". I actually got nightkilled after claiming at L-1,

thank you very little

. And I feel like he'd have it in his mafia memory banks that "bad progression =/= scumfuck"

Sorry gamma <3

Still not sure why he's supposed to remember that though? I mean I suppose it's possible he remembered a wagon that didn't lead to a lynch from 1.5 years ago, but I'm not sure why you think it's suspicious that he didn't.

[Ausuka]

I don't really get the Havo votes on page 25. On that page I can only see playstyle-related things.

you don't understand the process of pressuring somebody?

I was under the impression the votes were because Havo was being scummy? I mean even if it's pressure you still pressure the person you think is scummy right?

[Ausuka]

Tchill on page 16 is bleeding town IMO.

tchill had 1 post on page 16.

want to try again?

I meant page 26, sorry.

[Ausuka]

Ausuka's 168 -

"If there's scum on Tchill it's Gamma"

- this is pretty bad given the lack of explanation, and given Ausuka was also scumreading and voting Tchill at the time - It's like she's already portioning blame for a potential mislynch.

Okay so this is total bullshit. Not explaining one minor scumread in the post that I state it doesn't make me scum by any stretch of the imagination. Just because I was voting and scumreading Tchill very early on does not mean that I am certain he is scum and anyone who votes him is immune to suspicion. And nobody's planning to pin a mislynch on anybody on page 8.

209 - I don't get why she felt better about Maria after that exchange? I didn't personally think Maria came out of it looking that good, so I was surprised to see this unvote.

I understood her ideas better afterwards, so I could see them coming from town. The fact that she apparently has lingered onto her scumread on me this whole time, despite the fact I went through all her points and she didn't seem to hold onto any of them at the end, does make me suspicious, but like that exchange itself did clear things up.

243 - she moves the goalposts against Tchill - he wasn't suspecting you based on your '

reasons'

- he was suspecting you based on your retaliatory vote.

Yeah, and I was asking him why the "retaliatory vote" wasn't just a regular town response to a post, and was instead an OMGUS vote worthy of suspicion.

358 - this pinged me as being a bit OTT to link four town games like that, and I believe Katherine was referring more to her own place in the table than the table itself.

OK so now it's alignment indicative to link too many games for meta???????? Pretty sure you're just trying to manufacture a case for me at this point.

366 -

"Maria definitely could be town here. IIRC we scumread each other last time we played together"

- yeah, and how does that relate to her being town this game? This feels like a possible attempt to make Maria think twice before scumreading her. She's also a bit sneaky in how she implies I jumped off Tchill only because the momentum of his wagon died down, ignoring the fact I was offline throughout that time and the fact I had my reasons for flipping my read on him. She makes out my vote on Katherine was bad because I hadn't scumread her before then? Err, she probably had about four posts at the time.

If I scumread someone before, then yeah, of course I'm going to give them more leniency next game. Especially since I didn't like her case on me in that game, either.

And yeah, you could be town who just thinks Tchill's reactions were transparently town, and of course that isn't a good point on its own. The importance of it is that as the Tchill wagon is on its dying breath, you switch to katherine, a new rising wagon, with no reasoning at all other than "it's a decent bet" which definitely seems opportunistic to me. I mean, I don't know if you mean that you're voting katherine for being a lurker which would make more sense I guess, although it still seems weird that you hop on katherine for lurking when Mumble made, like, 1 post, and it was like one day into the game.

And no that's not the reason your vote was bad. But it does mean there wasn't prior reasoning you gave for the wagon that would justify voting him.

446 - Suddenly has me in the bottom tier based on the above. All traces of her opinion that my posts

'made sense'

and

'came from a townie mindset'

have been obliviated.

Well, yeah, that's the thing with early weak reads. They're weak, and I'll easily replace them if I find anything stronger.

585 - This is a weird reaction - like, why not question why they exist instead of making a sarcastic remark?

I mean, that post is kinda questioning why they exist. Also sarcastic remarks are my thing.

697 - Weird defence of Havo - the reasons for why I voted him were clearly explained so I don't see what she doesn't 'get' there.

Your vote on Havo wasn't on page 25 though. KTS and Cedrick both blank-voted Havo on page 25, presumably due to something he did. But I didn't see anything AI he did and I didn't get the votes, hence that post.

[Ausuka]

Caught up.
Town
Creature
KTS
Katherine
Havo

Lean-town
Asuka
Cedrick

Neutral
Mumble

Scumpool
Luca
Tchill
MariaR
Implosion
Gamma

VOTE: Gamma

I agree with Hopkirk's townreads so that slot can be town for now.

[Ausuka]

Not convinced...

Okay, I guess I haven't asked you directly yet, so, why are you voting me?

[Ausuka]

Spoiler:

Ausuka's 168 -

"If there's scum on Tchill it's Gamma"

- this is pretty bad given the lack of explanation, and given Ausuka was also scumreading and voting Tchill at the time - It's like she's already portioning blame for a potential mislynch.

Okay so this is total bullshit. Not explaining one minor scumread in the post that I state it doesn't make me scum by any stretch of the imagination. Just because I was voting and scumreading Tchill very early on does not mean that I am certain he is scum and anyone who votes him is immune to suspicion. And nobody's planning to pin a mislynch on anybody on page 8.

209 - I don't get why she felt better about Maria after that exchange? I didn't personally think Maria came out of it looking that good, so I was surprised to see this unvote.

I understood her ideas better afterwards, so I could see them coming from town. The fact that she apparently has lingered onto her scumread on me this whole time, despite the fact I went through all her points and she didn't seem to hold onto any of them at the end, does make me suspicious, but like that exchange itself did clear things up.

243 - she moves the goalposts against Tchill - he wasn't suspecting you based on your '

reasons'

- he was suspecting you based on your retaliatory vote.

Yeah, and I was asking him why the "retaliatory vote" wasn't just a regular town response to a post, and was instead an OMGUS vote worthy of suspicion.

358 - this pinged me as being a bit OTT to link four town games like that, and I believe Katherine was referring more to her own place in the table than the table itself.

OK so now it's alignment indicative to link too many games for meta???????? Pretty sure you're just trying to manufacture a case for me at this point.

366 -

"Maria definitely could be town here. IIRC we scumread each other last time we played together"

- yeah, and how does that relate to her being town this game? This feels like a possible attempt to make Maria think twice before scumreading her. She's also a bit sneaky in how she implies I jumped off Tchill only because the momentum of his wagon died down, ignoring the fact I was offline throughout that time and the fact I had my reasons for flipping my read on him. She makes out my vote on Katherine was bad because I hadn't scumread her before then? Err, she probably had about four posts at the time.

If I scumread someone before, then yeah, of course I'm going to give them more leniency next game. Especially since I didn't like her case on me in that game, either.

And yeah, you could be town who just thinks Tchill's reactions were transparently town, and of course that isn't a good point on its own. The importance of it is that as the Tchill wagon is on its dying breath, you switch to katherine, a new rising wagon, with no reasoning at all other than "it's a decent bet" which definitely seems opportunistic to me. I mean, I don't know if you mean that you're voting katherine for being a lurker which would make more sense I guess, although it still seems weird that you hop on katherine for lurking when Mumble made, like, 1 post, and it was like one day into the game.

And no that's not the reason your vote was bad. But it does mean there wasn't prior reasoning you gave for the wagon that would justify voting him.

446 - Suddenly has me in the bottom tier based on the above. All traces of her opinion that my posts

'made sense'

and

'came from a townie mindset'

have been obliviated.

Well, yeah, that's the thing with early weak reads. They're weak, and I'll easily replace them if I find anything stronger.

585 - This is a weird reaction - like, why not question why they exist instead of making a sarcastic remark?

I mean, that post is kinda questioning why they exist. Also sarcastic remarks are my thing.

697 - Weird defence of Havo - the reasons for why I voted him were clearly explained so I don't see what she doesn't 'get' there.

Your vote on Havo wasn't on page 25 though. KTS and Cedrick both blank-voted Havo on page 25, presumably due to something he did. But I didn't see anything AI he did and I didn't get the votes, hence that post.

1. No, it's not BS. Saying '

I scumread Tchill and am voting him, but if he's town then Gamma is the scum on the wagon'

is BS. From your POV, if you're town, you shouldn't even be assuming there must be scum on the wagon - you found reason enough to scumread him, so why would scum have to be voting him?

I never assumed there's scum on the wagon. I said "

If

there's scum on the wagon, it's Gamma."

2. What in particular did she say that made you think she was town?

Not sure how this question is relevant. Maria said things that didn't make sense coming from a real town mindset to me, so I voted her. Once Maria explained those reads she had in more detail, like saying my posts looked like shade because they didn't include reasoning, I felt like the reads could come from town, so my initial concerns weren't there anymore, so I unvoted.

3. Probably due to the defensive nature of it.

I don't really see your point here.

4. Right, first off I wasn't making a

'case

' I was simply ISO'ing you and giving my thoughts. Secondly, you're twisting my point - of course it isn't AI to link games of meta; I think I specified clearly enough why this particular example pinged me. It was like you were geared up to defend yourself on this issue - at the slightest mention of your table, which I still don't believe was Katherine's main point, you're like 'YOU CAN'T SCUMREAD ME FOR THAT LOOK AT THESE GAMES' - as I said, it just seemed OTT.

If you're just ISOing me it's really weird that your outlook is so consistently negative on everything I do
And it wasn't the "slightest mention"- even if I was wrong about that, fmpov I was being voted because of the name of the townlean section of my readslist. Why shouldn't I defend myself from that? And why shouldn't I link to games in which I used the format as town (which weren't exactly hard to get, because I used it in most of my recent towngames.) And why am I, as scum, preparing in advance to be pushed for the name of one of the sections of my readslist? (which has never happened before; if this was actually a common issue I'd just change the name.)

5. How can I help the fact that I unvoted when Tchill's wagon was '

on its dying breath'

given I was sleeping during that time? I laid-out my thought-process; I'm not sure what more I can do there. Since when is switching to a

'rising

' wagon early game scummy? It's what most people have done this game, and yet you pinpoint me for this? I think it's obvious why I voted Katherine at that point, and the reason I've been reluctant to vote Mumble is because I've seen how scummy he can play as town.

I mean, if you're town you can't change the Tchill wagon, sure. But considering you just jumped onto that wagon without reasoning, the fact that you moved onto katherine at this time seemed like it could come from oppurtunistic scum- especially since you voted him without reasoning, which seems kinda weird for you (considering you were suspicious of me in your ISO post for not giving reasoning for a minor early-game scumread.) That's a weak point, sure, but I wanted to keep it in mind at least.
And no, it is really not obvious at all why you voted katherine at that point. Call me obtuse or whatever but I really don't get it.

6. Your reasoning for flipping your read on me was really weak, though - I could just about understand it if I became null, but you seemed to forget my early

'townie

' posts ever happened.

Your posts weren't that townie. That read was an early-game read to start the game off. Of course it's going to be weak stuff, and I don't see any problem with discarding it.

7. Well it didn't elicit any answers, and you don't seem bothered by that.

No, I haven't really been bothered by it. As far as I know maria isn't even reading these walls and doesn't even know I want the reason, so I guess I should be asking her directly. But getting reasons quickly is still a pretty minor thing for me.
Not sure how that's really AI anyway though.

8. Presumably they agreed with my reasoning? What were the '

playstyle things'

you were referring to?

I think if they were sheeping someone they would have said it. Considering Havo was making so many posts at that point it's significantly more likely that they were just voting Havo because they found them scummy individually.
And considering the warning he gave at the start of the game (which iirc isn't something unique to this game) I'm pretty sure most of the posts on there, which were related to him running up implo to L-1 for "reactions."

[Ausuka]

@MariaR; What was your reasoning for voting me in 584?

[Ausuka]

Let's please lynch one of mumble

I mean, I guess I wouldn't hate a mumble lynch, but right now it feels like that really unsatisfying compromise lynch you do on a lurker at the end of the day which flips town.

[Ausuka]

I don't know what you mean by that.

[Ausuka]

Like if your definition of "defensive" is responding to someone posting a long (case/whatever you want to call it) about you, then sure, I'm defensive.

[Ausuka]

@MariaR; What was your reasoning for voting me in 584?

uhhhh forget pretty sure it was along the lines of "Well impo is town so let's move onto the next biggest scumread!"

Well yeah but why did you scumread me when I'm pretty sure we talked through all your points before that? Presumably you had more but you never told anyone about them.

[Ausuka]

Like if your definition of "defensive" is responding to someone posting a long (case/whatever you want to call it) about you, then sure, I'm defensive.

But it's very consistently what you're doing. I'm seeing very little analysis of anything else at all at this point.

I literally have TWO POSTS of that. Seriously dude.

[Ausuka]

Let's please lynch one of mumble

I mean, I guess I wouldn't hate a mumble lynch, but right now it feels like that really unsatisfying compromise lynch you do on a lurker at the end of the day which flips town.

Why isn't he scum?

If you're looking for a towncase you're not going to be getting that. It's not like I townread mumble for his extremely obvtown content or something. But I feel like there are better options for now than the default lynch which basically everyone is "meh" about.

[Ausuka]

Asuka feels genuine/curious too.
@Asuka: Why Tchill town?

It's pretty much just a strong gutread so I can't really explain it to you. He just feels genuine.

[Ausuka]

Tchill13 = Robbnva/Derpy Hooves/Jake from State Farm?

No.

[Ausuka]

So I have a stuuuuuupid theory. So there's actually a thread in mafia discussion called something like "ethics of scumplay". Basically the point of it is to argue whether questionable things can be excused in the name of scumplay such as toxicity. Here's the application: what if only Cedrick got warned for being toxic because KTS is scum and has that leeway to behave however he wants?

This is a really bad post but it probably comes from town anyway unless scum!Gamma is really, really creative.

Not sure what else to say at this point tbh.

[Ausuka]

Not sure how useful VCA is right now. The implo wagon was really quick and the lack of resistance to it leads me to believe that scum were probably bussing implo. I don't see how my d1 voting makes me scum here.
That said my d1 reads were probably still disastarous and I'm just going to refresh them at this point.

[Ausuka]

I don't see any need to intensively inspect the commuter claim. It could be real or it could be fake, and there's no real way to determine that without more PR involvement, especially with the general lack of info we have about the setup at this point. I'm just going to ignore it for now.

[Ausuka]

asuka caking mumble stupid or whatever for voting implosion

This never happened. I asked him not to blank-votehop if he was town because at that point it was kinda impossible to read him.

[Ausuka]

Actually I need to reread maria and katherine. They weren't around during the buildup on implo so it would explain the lack of scum-resistance to implo if they were scum here.

[Ausuka]

Ausuka
brassherald
Mumble
katherine
Luca Blight
implosion
tring the people not in this list

I feel like if Maria is scum this means her partner isn't katherine. It's still possible MariaR and Tchill could be scum together but tbh if Tchill is scum he's just completely duped me. His tone feels really genuine this game.

[Ausuka]

Not sure how useful VCA is right now. The implo wagon was really quick and the lack of resistance to it leads me to believe that scum were probably bussing implo. I don't see how my d1 voting makes me scum here.
That said my d1 reads were probably still disastarous and I'm just going to refresh them at this point.

VCA is literally the most useful tool we have right now; it's what most of the information we have is based on.

Then the information we have is probably subpar, and we need to get better information.
Objectively, could scum have bussed Implo? Absolutely. Could scum have avoided his wagon? Absolutely.
Could both mumble wagons have been fuelled by town fustration and were town-based? Aboslutely. Could they have been fuelled by scum oppurtunism? Absolutely. This goes for pretty much every wagon. You're not going to get anywhere by putting colours on a few VCs, at least not on day 2. Individual votes on those wagons are worth analysis but, like, there's not really any point in saying X scum are in Y wagon IMO.

And I feel there

was

resistance to the Implo wagon - in the form of

my

wagon.

Nah, your wagon wasn't resistance to Implo. It was there before Implo wagon was a thing. Maria and I were definitely in there before anything happened, and Mumble vs Luca was still the main event when Katherine voted. And Tchill far from opposed Implo's lynch; he was voting Implo before he switched to you and he never tried to derail Implo.

[Ausuka]

Ausuka
brassherald
Mumble
katherine
Luca Blight
implosion
tring the people not in this list

I feel like if Maria is scum this means her partner isn't katherine. It's still possible MariaR and Tchill could be scum together but tbh if Tchill is scum he's just completely duped me. His tone feels really genuine this game.

If you're not buddying and you're actually town then I'd like to have a chat with you on how to read tone post game.

I'm not sure what this means.

[Ausuka]

Ausuka
brassherald
Mumble
katherine
Luca Blight
implosion
tring the people not in this list

I feel like if Maria is scum this means her partner isn't katherine.

It's still possible MariaR and Tchill could be scum together but tbh if Tchill is scum he's just completely duped me. His tone feels really genuine this game.

You're basing that purely on that list?

Well I mean yeah. If Maria is scum she likely drafted this list based on narrowing down push options. Implo's in there. Would she put her other partner in too? Because I feel like if you're going to put both of your partners on a list like that you just never make the post.

[Ausuka]

@Asuka: I can't see anything in your iso that makes you seem like an unlikely partner to both Tchill and Implosion. Thoughts?

Well yeah, I don't think I've done anything that would make that an unlikely pair.

[Ausuka]

I feel like Luca is pretty transparently town at this point.

[Ausuka]

I'm actually pretty sure everyone who is posting {Cedrick, Hopkirk, Tchill, Luca} right now is town.
Hopkirk going through ISOs of players he suspects and trying to find links is definitely townlike. It's the sort of thing I'm pretty sure scum wouldn't bother doing. (effort is NAI, to be clear, but I feel like this particular thing is something scum is a lot less likely to spend energy on.)

[Ausuka]

Gamma Emerald
Havo
katherine
MariaR

I probably won't consider lynching anyone outside this pool. I don't have solid reasons to scumread them yet but I do have reasons to think the other people are town.

[Ausuka]

Do yall really not see where I'm getting my confirm 6 townies thing?

I know I don't

Why would scum bus implosion if a townie was that close to being lynched?

For towncred.

[Ausuka]

Like if we all just pretend that bussing doesn't exist and nobody would bus a buddy (especially one who didn't seem that into the game) we're probably going to end up off-track.

[Ausuka]

Maria why have you locktowned gamma and katherine?

[Ausuka]

Like if we all just pretend that bussing doesn't exist and nobody would bus a buddy (especially one who didn't seem that into the game) we're probably going to end up off-track.

You can't just ignore the context of everything though - how else are you supposed to scumhunt?

You have to narrow down the options based on what is most and least likely to have occurred based on the info we have.

Tchill is saying that we get conftown from the people on the wagon. That's an incredibly dangerous viewpoint and I have no idea what "context" has to do with it.
Bussing happens and there's nothing about the Implo wagon that makes it less likely to be a bus wagon IMO.

[Ausuka]

Idk man. If scum bus they're choosing town cred over one less day phase they have to survive in THAT particular situation.

One vote was pretty much the deciding factor.

Well yeah. Of course they're choosing townced over another day phase to survive, but the idea is that they're less likely to be lynched in those days so it is +EV overall.
And I don't think luca wagon had nearly enough momentum at that point to reach a lynch anyway.

Like if we all just pretend that bussing doesn't exist and nobody would bus a buddy (especially one who didn't seem that into the game) we're probably going to end up off-track.

Immediate resistance to my idea already. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying there's no need for it in that particular situation on a claimed PR that close to lynch.

Resistance =/= you're correct. I'm resisting because making 6 people "conftown" over an assumption they're not bussing seems likely to lose us the game at some point.
There's never really a need for bussing. I personally am generally against bussing. But it still happens because people want the towncred and they think they can get to endgame. A 1-shot PR isn't significant to the point where you can rule out bussing of it. And I don't know why the situation would make scum less likely to bus here.

[Ausuka]

Maria why have you locktowned gamma and katherine?

Explained Kath

Can you link me to this please? I looked in your ISO and I can't find it.

[Ausuka]

Like if we all just pretend that bussing doesn't exist and nobody would bus a buddy (especially one who didn't seem that into the game) we're probably going to end up off-track.

You can't just ignore the context of everything though - how else are you supposed to scumhunt?

You have to narrow down the options based on what is most and least likely to have occurred based on the info we have.

Tchill is saying that we get conftown from the people on the wagon. That's an incredibly dangerous viewpoint and I have no idea what "context" has to do with it.
Bussing happens and there's nothing about the Implo wagon that makes it less likely to be a bus wagon IMO.

I agree it confirms no-one, but clearly the implosion wagon is less likely to have seen bussing for the reasons I already stated.

I am a claimed pr (one scum can't ever kill), implosion is a scum pr, the lynch could go either way - scum would be pretty silly to bus here. It's possible, but I think at least the majority of the scumteam were on my wagon.

I think your PR claim came too late to matter. By the time you claimed Implo was at L-1 (while you were still voting Mumble) and you were at L-3 I believe.

[Ausuka]

I agree scum are less likely to have bussed here, purely because of how tight the lynch was, and also because I claimed an unkillable pr - I'm sure scum would have loved to have offed me D1. implosion was also a pr we must remember.

If scum were on implosion it will have been one of the first on it imo.

Ironically your pr is more likely in the hands of scum then it is town

but I can just assume you're fake claiming and you're this super strong town pr for now *shrug*

Let me get this straight - are you saying commuter is more likely to be a scum role than a town one?

unlimited? Yes

Tell me what you're basing this on.

Well someone who can't be nightkilled is basically someone who cannot be targeted by anything and if they so choose make it so they stay alive for good that seems really unfair for scum to not be able to deal with a player not all in anyway unless said player lets them do it
Where as if it was scum they can use that without complaint until they're the last scum and then that power is gone feels fairer

This post feels like scum complaining to me -

"it isn't fair"

lol.

Surely whether or not it's 'fair' depends on what other roles are in the game - we already know Mafia had a strongman which is a decent role.

I agree with this actually.

[Ausuka]

Osuka

No question, now, what had happened to the face of Ausuka. The creatures outside looked from Ausuka to osuka, and from osuka to Ausuka, and from Ausaka to osuka again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

[Ausuka]

@Gamma.

Right now who’s your top scum read?
If you don’t mind saying.

TChill I think, I was having doubts when he said he was scumreading Ausuka but thinking about his possible scum motives for that I realized it would benefit him rather than hurt him bsed on the logic that was making that a concern for me, which was TChill seeming to want to get cleared off an Ausuka townflip.
VOTE: TChill

Wait why do you scumread Tchill again? I can't find anything recent in your iso and this post looks like you're saying that because he's got scum motivation to push me, that makes him scum, which is

[Ausuka]

If scum bussed implo I think the team is {Havo, Gamma}
If they didn't I think it's {Maria, katherine}

Tonight I'm going to do joint-ISOs for both of those scenarios and see what makes more sense (or if both are just really bad)

[Ausuka]

No? couldn't town have had the same wavelength of thought?

Possible, but unlikely.

I sr that whole wagon minus gamma so take your pick

Why minus gamma?

now who needs to read the game

Maria why have you locktowned gamma and katherine?

Explained Kath
Gamma is meta haven't read him wrong once plus a few posts in this game just don't feel like something scum gamma would make he's prob my top tr now that kts died

I still never found the post where you explain your katherine read.

[Ausuka]

No, I wasn't asking for him not to vote implosion, I was asking him not to blank vote someone who he hadn't scumread yet. It's not like I went around telling everyone who ever voted implosion to stop doing it.

[Ausuka]

That said 334 is really bad. Mumble just came in and voteparked the largest wagon. Like I understand not giving reasons for townreads but when you're voting a wagon you kinda gotta back it up.

I mean this is me basically doing the same thing as what you're saying.

That being said me just going up to one of the many implosion votes and saying "hey man don't vote this nullread I have" makes no sense whatsoever as a theory and I don't know why it's actually being pushed.

[Ausuka]

I was going to read Havo/Gamma ISOs together but I can't find the motivation to read 304 posts and find associatives between them

[Ausuka]

So about maria and katherine.

I feel like Maria's position in the game is utterly confusing. I still have no idea why she's scumreading me. Everyone else is presumably doing it because I was voting Luca (which is still kinda baffling to me but I can see it coming from town, and it obviously has done so already, so meh) but she was on the Luca wagon too so I don't think the "purge the Luca wagon!" attitude makes any sense coming from her. Scumreading Luca at this point is even more confusing because I feel like Luca is just obvious town at this point from what happened yesterday.

Katherine's ISO is still super meh to me and I feel like that could definitely end up flipping scum. If scum didn't bus Implo I think this is just flat-out scum; 964 just seems fake upon rereading it. "concise in a way that is helpful to me and also doesn't lend itself to being townread" as a description of Maria makes me think they're more likely to be scumpartners because I don't see how he interprets that as indicative of anything except playstyle. I guess "she mentioned something about the way she played scum that made me think she would be more effortful in that way" is supposed to be an explanation for that but I'm not seeing it. The whole thing seems like it's full of fake scum points rather than real ones.

I feel like the scumteam here is probably maria/katherine and right now I'm pretty much ok with lynching either.
VOTE: MariaR

I suppose it could still be gamma and havo but meh. I think out of the four that I don't really townread at this point Gamma is definitely the most townie.

Also I'm never lynching Tchill.

[Ausuka]

I agree scum are less likely to have bussed here, purely because of how tight the lynch was, and also because I claimed an unkillable pr - I'm sure scum would have loved to have offed me D1. implosion was also a pr we must remember.

If scum were on implosion it will have been one of the first on it imo.

Ironically your pr is more likely in the hands of scum then it is town

but I can just assume you're fake claiming and you're this super strong town pr for now *shrug*

Let me get this straight - are you saying commuter is more likely to be a scum role than a town one?

unlimited? Yes

Tell me what you're basing this on.

Well someone who can't be nightkilled is basically someone who cannot be targeted by anything and if they so choose make it so they stay alive for good that seems really unfair for scum to not be able to deal with a player not all in anyway unless said player lets them do it
Where as if it was scum they can use that without complaint until they're the last scum and then that power is gone feels fairer

This post feels like scum complaining to me -

"it isn't fair"

lol.

Surely whether or not it's 'fair' depends on what other roles are in the game - we already know Mafia had a strongman which is a decent role.

I agree with this actually.

Maria and Ausuka both think Luca's role is more likely to be had by scum. They don't seem to push for this lynch today though unless i missed something.

For some reason I just remembered this and no, I was agreeing with Luca not Maria.

pedit: Yeah I know that. I was saying that that's the general attitude I think the scumreads on me have, and I didn't think it applied to you.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: katherine

maria's reasoning is solid. Also dislike tchill's 41. Also skeptical of cedrick's opening.

so the scumteam of me kath/impo thought
"Oh let's make a scumcase on kath and buss within the first 50 posts"
You gotta see how that logic is a...yeah

Man don't you just hate it when you vote someone with an early-game case on like p2/p4 and that then makes you tunnel your partner for the rest of time?

[Ausuka]

Like I don't see why scum can't distance in the early game. The fact that you're using that as a defence against you guys being scumbuddies only makes me suspicious that the plan really was to distance yourself from each other.

[Ausuka]

I don't get your gamma sr at all

That's probably because I don't have one- I just don't townread him as strongly as other players

[Ausuka]

If my plan was to distance I wouldn't bring it up as my first defense I'd let someone else do it for me.

If you did this it's probable nobody else would actually bring it up though.

[Ausuka]

if I was scum with this playerlist I feel like it'd be the easiest win of my life considering a few tactics I wanted to try.

Anyway I'm talking to scum anyway so that's fine and dandy

You know, I still have no idea why you think this.

[Ausuka]

Luca Blight can also join the townclub. If there's scum on Tchill it's Gamma.

pedit:

If we lynched Tchill and he flipped scum, I probably wouldn't townread KTS for it.

Them being scumbuddies could explain him continuing to hard-townread KTS even after KTS himself dismissed his point, but that's kinda meh. He'd stay null.

The Luca tr comes out of no where "Oh look a towny who made a wall post that seems to have reasoning lets tr that" The bolded is interesting cause the first thing that came to mind was "Partner with Tchill who knows he'll flip scum and is trying to not credit KTS"
The hedge here is the bad type of hedge too
Pedit: That I tr him?

This is the last reasoning I see in your ISO and if this is actually why you're scumreading me then that's really, really weak.

[Ausuka]

I think your reads are opportunistic

I've been anything but oppurtunistic this game and I'm not sure how you believe this.

[Ausuka]

well i will say this.

i think its either Luca/cedrick

or a mixture of Maria/Ausuka/Katherine.

TBH neither of these positions make much sense.
I mean I do think it's maria/katherine but saying I'm scum and I'm bussing my last buddy when I think literally noone except maybe Hopkirk townreads me is just

and Luca/cedrick just never happens this game.

[Ausuka]

Tchill is just town at this point actually.

[Ausuka]

So you think scum bussed implosion? Who.

Not right now just because of who I scumread individually from that, but it's definitely possible that it could've happened if the game doesn't end after we lynch maria and katherine.

As for who, Havo and probably Gamma? idk. Nobody's really scummy on implo wagon which is why I think it's just maria and kath.

[Ausuka]

a scum pool of MariaR, Ausuka and Katherine

A lot of people have expressed this opinion so I'm gonna say this.

I have been scumreading both Maria and katherine and I want to see them both dead.
According to Maria katherine is actually locktown. And here's why she says this;

No? couldn't town have had the same wavelength of thought?

Possible, but unlikely.

I sr that whole wagon minus gamma so take your pick

Why minus gamma?

now who needs to read the game

Maria why have you locktowned gamma and katherine?

Explained Kath
Gamma is meta haven't read him wrong once plus a few posts in this game just don't feel like something scum gamma would make he's prob my top tr now that kts died

I still never found the post where you explain your katherine read.

Allow me to explain again then.
Impo agreed with my logic and early buddied me on my Katherine read I don't think that's how a partner busses someone they're with it seems like a useless bus with impo wouldn't be getting a lot of credit for it.

I feel like it should be pretty clear who's town and who's scum in that pool.

[Ausuka]

Can we lynch in me and Aus? Leave Kath/Tchi out of it ty

Why are you arguing to lynch yourself

*shrug* Idm if I get lynched or not I'm lynchbait as town so I'm used to coming under pressure it's no big deal to me. I rather we lynch in my and my top sr though cause if I get lynched Aus is next and that nails a scum so works for me ^_~

I'm pretty sure others have already mentioned it but this post is really bad. It's trying to look noble and pro-town even though it really isn't.

[Ausuka]

The fact everyone has this same lynch pool should be a giant red sign and maybe I'm blind but considering I have big tr's on 2/3 of the lynch pool minus myself this is a big "uh oh this is gonna go bad"
So go on and lynch me if it will wake everyone up and say "hey look you're incorrect focus else where"

Hell maybe not even Auska is scum because if everyone is agreeing with the same lynch pool it means scum are content with said lynch pool
VOTE: Havo
I'll vote here for now
This ced maybe Luca aus for scum

I feel like this is scum!Maria who knows she is about to get lynched so she tries a different tactic.

The main part of my read on Maria is still her opinion on katherine; first he is town because implo voted him early which is ???

And then again with the "the Kath tr isn't as strong but it feels correct to me." Katherine has 12 posts and I'm not sure how you can divine anything AI enough from them to put him in "locktown". I just really feel like that's a SvS interaction because Maria knows she can't bus d2 and still win the game here.

[Ausuka]

I feel like kts is more likely to be a pr kill than anything else. I mean at the end of the day he was openly saying he hated the game. Maybe the mafia just wanted to put him out of his misery?

[Ausuka]

I would totally be up for lynching Katherine too if people want to do that. It would probably save someone replacing into the game in a somewhat hopeless position at least.

[Ausuka]

Although I guess that slot could still be a PR.

[Ausuka]

I don't really wanna lynch Tchill. Apart from my gut which won't convince anyone there's also the fact he seems to be attacking people who are townreading him, which basically discourages anyone from townreading him. I don't see scum doing that in his position; they would probably be doing all they could to get more townreads instead. In the same way I feel like he's being more snarky to people than he needs to be, which is generally not the way you get someone to townread you.

Also, sorry for the pentuple post, but judging by the activity so far this game I get the feeling you guys can keep up with it

[Ausuka]

You're at L-2.

[Ausuka]

Stahp
Maria is town

But why?

[Ausuka]

Hopkirk are you actually basing your view of KTS's reads from page 11?

[Ausuka]

Not sure how useful VCA is right now. The implo wagon was really quick and the lack of resistance to it leads me to believe that scum were probably bussing implo. I don't see how my d1 voting makes me scum here.
That said my d1 reads were probably still disastarous and I'm just going to refresh them at this point.

This is really bad
Could explain a KTS kill too. If KTS brought Mumble's claim, he'd be going for Ausuka.

How was it really bad though. There's nothing wrong with it.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: katherine

Ausuka is my 2nd biggest SR. Gamma is a scum lean.

Maria, KTS and Cedrick town. Luca is a town lean.

Rest is null.

Ausuku/Tchill?

VOTE: Ausuka

what

[Ausuka]

Town read Mumble and you, scumread Luca probably.

[Ausuka]

Not sure how useful VCA is right now. The implo wagon was really quick and the lack of resistance to it leads me to believe that scum were probably bussing implo. I don't see how my d1 voting makes me scum here.
That said my d1 reads were probably still disastarous and I'm just going to refresh them at this point.

This is really bad
Could explain a KTS kill too. If KTS brought Mumble's claim, he'd be going for Ausuka.

How was it really bad though. There's nothing wrong with it.

Waiting to see where things lie is classicy kind of scummy. Post is that + discrediting things that would point to you as scum when considered.
Feels kind of deliberate.
The certaintly in the first points (that could make you suspicious) conflicts to an extent with the uncertain tone of the last sentence.

I got reads within 27 minutes. I was hardly waiting to see where things lie. Anyway, town not having reads at the start of the day after a scumflip is perfectly normal.
And as I said, the logic was fine. There was no reason Implo couldn't have been a bus. I don't think it is now because I SR Maria/katherine but there's no reason to suspect me for that. And saying the Luca wagon had scum shouldn't really direct to me anyway; I was the first one voting Luca, but everyone says "wow Ausuka was voting Luca, she must be scum!" even though I could have easily attacked {maria, katherine, tchill} slots just because they jumped on the wagon.
The last point doesn't even make sense on any level. Not only did I say scum were

probably

bussing, which is definitely not certain, me having an opinion on the implo wagon doesn't have anything to do with "my d1 reads were bad"

[Ausuka]

Town read Mumble and you, scumread Luca probably.

I was assuming that, unless stated to have changed, his reads hadn't changed.

What? Just because you don't mention a read from page 11 doesn't mean you still have it.

[Ausuka]

Creature could totally be scum now btw.

[Ausuka]

I was townreading him for activity because that's his meta but I looked at it and he hasn't been all that active. I have more posts than him as do most people. He's probably busy irl rn though but if this keeps up he could definitely be mafia.

[Ausuka]

Guess Flavor Leaf is town.

Why?

[Ausuka]

Maria/FL play just makes a lot more sense than Tchill play as scum IMO. Maria's read on Kath slot still feels like S/S and I still don't get why Scum!Tchill is literally scumreading anyone who starts townreading him. Why is that scum play?

[Ausuka]

Well sure, he doesn't want to hand out townreads in the lynchpool, but he can push anyone for any reason. Me, Maria, Katherine all have a lot of reasons for someone to go after us. Why does he choose to scumread us for townreading him in particular? That definitely would scare people off for basically no gain. Also, his insistence scum didn't bus makes this game a lot harder for him especially if his partner is in {Maria, Ausuka, FL} because after he gets three of us lynched (and kills three of us too, which COULD not happen) that's 3v2 at best. And that's IF he is the last lynch in the lynchpool and the scumpartner isn't a suspected player either.

Idk I feel like it's just Maria/FL here.

[Ausuka]

Like, not only do we have what's already mentioned, but;

The fact everyone has this same lynch pool should be a giant red sign and maybe I'm blind but considering I have big tr's on 2/3 of the lynch pool minus myself this is a big "uh oh this is gonna go bad"
So go on and lynch me if it will wake everyone up and say "hey look you're incorrect focus else where"

Hell maybe not even Auska is scum because if everyone is agreeing with the same lynch pool it means scum are content with said lynch pool
VOTE: Havo
I'll vote here for now
This ced maybe Luca aus for scum

I mean I'll grant that Havo isn't a totally unreasonable pick for scum, but this here has a lot of scum motivation. Pushing outside the lynchpool is what scum really should be here and she is doing it. The fact that she is apparently SUPER CONFIDENT in her read on me and then turns back because she doesn't like that most people agree on {Maria, ausuka, FL} (which I'm pretty sure isn't even close to an universal pool but like whatever) doesn't feel right to me.
And it also feels like Maria is like "I don't care if I get lynched if it's for the Greater Good™!" half of the time, and the other half of the time she's just like "Don't lynch me! These guys are total scum, lynch them instead!" the other half of the time.

[Ausuka]

Well sure, he doesn't want to hand out townreads in the lynchpool, but he can push anyone for any reason. Me, Maria, Katherine all have a lot of reasons for someone to go after us. Why does he choose to scumread us for townreading him in particular? That definitely would scare people off for basically no gain. Also, his insistence scum didn't bus makes this game a lot harder for him especially if his partner is in {Maria, Ausuka, FL} because after he gets three of us lynched (and kills three of us too, which COULD not happen) that's 3v2 at best. And that's IF he is the last lynch in the lynchpool and the scumpartner isn't a suspected player either.

Idk I feel like it's just Maria/FL here.

In regard to his insistance scum didn't bus: If the people who voted Implosion don't think scum bussed, it doesn't really matter what Tchill says about it. Not accepting that, if it is accepted, makes Tchill a much more likely lynch.

You can't convince people of an opinion you don't hold, though, so Tchill probably has to go the reverse at some point (unless his scumpartner is a widely townread Implo voter. It would work well in that scenario, but I don't think that's very likely.) And he didn't have to advocate for scum on Luca as strongly as he did- that just makes it more likely someone will point it out later, if he does reverse his position, and if someone is actually convinced by his arguments that would definitely make his job as scum harder.

On the same note, he didn't start the day hard townreads on everyone who voted Implosion. Eg, bringing up Luca as a potential lynch quite hard at the start of the day.

Eh I suppose that's true.

[Ausuka]

Katherine is a light townread for me. Hard if Tchill flips scum.

Why? As I've said I think FL is scum at this point and I'm not sure where TRs on him are coming from.

[Ausuka]

so you claim scum?

[Ausuka]

No. I scum read them because it's stupid to TR me at this point. It's that simple.

So hopkirk doesn't realize that I'm not playing with longevity in mind at all.

So you're calling people stupid because they defended you but you still think defending you is the smart move?

[Ausuka]

No. I scum read them because it's stupid to TR me at this point. It's that simple.

So hopkirk doesn't realize that I'm not playing with longevity in mind at all.

So you're calling people stupid because they defended you but you still think defending you is the smart move?

No. I was mad i was about to get lynched an pitched a fit

in all seriousness i still have hopkirk as lock town.

Hopkirks doing pretty damn good imo and if town win it'll be in large part due to him. I was just irritated ausuka can see me as town but hopkirk can't. It's fine though i can't really blame him.

Wait I thought I was scum buddying you

[Ausuka]

there's a legit possibility you're still scum.

I thought it was a probability. You were voting me a few pages ago?

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Havo

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Havo

Because........?

Maria is a really, really, really, really weird and strange kill coming from any scumteam that doesn't include Havo.
I also think this is a Boon kill.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Havo

Why would you vote blind out of the gate?

Because I was on mobile and had limited time but I wanted to get my vote in anyway. If I have a guilty I just state it outright, not blankvote.

Why not wait to see if any info comes out? Like does Mumble have anything?

We don't need to disturb normal dayplay because there's possibly a guilty. Sure, we don't lynch before everyone checks in, but I wasn't trying to lynch you yet.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Havo

Because........?

Maria is a really, really, really, really weird and strange kill coming from any scumteam that doesn't include Havo.
I also think this is a Boon kill.

Why would I kill Maria, when I was FOSing her?

Because she was FOSing you. It's a WIFOM kill from anyone but it makes by far the most sense coming from you.

[Ausuka]

I mean I guess it could also be a Tchill/FL ploy to get attention onto the implo wagon but that seems a lot less likely than you just being scum.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Luca

VOTE: Luca
The points I've seen feel solid enough that I'm willing to follow on this

Damn u guys. You wait til I finally forced myself to accept Lucas claim and then pull this?

VOTE: Luca

Yes I’m down with this. Will resolve a few things.

I mean I think there's definitely scum ^ here.

[Ausuka]

oh NO someone claimed 2-shot TRACKER with no other TRACKER in the game???? that CAN'T be scum EVER!

[Ausuka]

oh NO someone claimed 2-shot TRACKER with no other TRACKER in the game???? that CAN'T be scum EVER!

There's conditions where I would distrust it but for now I'm not

I'm not distrusting the claim as such, but unless we massclaim and he only makes sense as town I'm treating the claim as NAI. And I don't understand why you tried to call me out for not putting him in locktown.

[Ausuka]

I mean Ausuka/Tchill never kills Maria. Like seriously that's like the one mislynch we could have feasibly pulled off today.

[Ausuka]

I still have reasoning why I think tchill is town and that's been totally ignored.

[Ausuka]

Qno team should kill Maria, period. It's just universal suboptimal play.

1. Just because you think a play is suboptimal, doesn't mean someone couldn't have done it.
2. Havo has plenty of reason to kill Maria. Just look at today- everyone but me discards the kill, Tchill is the lynch just like he was going to be yesterday before the Luca shenanigans happened, and the only voice that was calling out Havo as scum is gone forever.

[Ausuka]

I agree that Luca wasn't a good d2 lynch, but the pioneers of the wagon (Hopkirk and Tchill) are a lot less likely to be scum than some of the people who opportunistically hopped on it and made it an L-1 wagon with just a few posts (Havo, Gamma, Mumble) IMO.

[Ausuka]

I mean I guess it could also be a Tchill/FL ploy to get attention onto the implo wagon but that seems a lot less likely than you just being scum.

Tchill/Flavor is too obvious to kill Maria, I feel.

Not really? It doesn't exactly implicate you and nobody else really cares about the fact that Havo is the "obvious" choice to do this.

If we were trying to make a wtf point as scum, I feel you’d be the correct kill.

What, and miss out me being the obvious choice for Tchill's partner?

I also think Ausuka is town. They have that antsy personality thing going on for them

Says the guy who got 1151 posts in one Large Normal

[Ausuka]

I don't really wanna lynch Tchill. Apart from my gut which won't convince anyone there's also the fact he seems to be attacking people who are townreading him, which basically discourages anyone from townreading him. I don't see scum doing that in his position; they would probably be doing all they could to get more townreads instead. In the same way I feel like he's being more snarky to people than he needs to be, which is generally not the way you get someone to townread you.

Also, sorry for the pentuple post, but judging by the activity so far this game I get the feeling you guys can keep up with it

Maria/FL play just makes a lot more sense than Tchill play as scum IMO. Maria's read on Kath slot still feels like S/S and I still don't get why Scum!Tchill is literally scumreading anyone who starts townreading him. Why is that scum play?

Well sure, he doesn't want to hand out townreads in the lynchpool, but he can push anyone for any reason. Me, Maria, Katherine all have a lot of reasons for someone to go after us. Why does he choose to scumread us for townreading him in particular? That definitely would scare people off for basically no gain. Also, his insistence scum didn't bus makes this game a lot harder for him especially if his partner is in {Maria, Ausuka, FL} because after he gets three of us lynched (and kills three of us too, which COULD not happen) that's 3v2 at best. And that's IF he is the last lynch in the lynchpool and the scumpartner isn't a suspected player either.

Idk I feel like it's just Maria/FL here.

Like, not only do we have what's already mentioned, but;

The fact everyone has this same lynch pool should be a giant red sign and maybe I'm blind but considering I have big tr's on 2/3 of the lynch pool minus myself this is a big "uh oh this is gonna go bad"
So go on and lynch me if it will wake everyone up and say "hey look you're incorrect focus else where"

Hell maybe not even Auska is scum because if everyone is agreeing with the same lynch pool it means scum are content with said lynch pool
VOTE: Havo
I'll vote here for now
This ced maybe Luca aus for scum

I mean I'll grant that Havo isn't a totally unreasonable pick for scum, but this here has a lot of scum motivation. Pushing outside the lynchpool is what scum really should be here and she is doing it. The fact that she is apparently SUPER CONFIDENT in her read on me and then turns back because she doesn't like that most people agree on {Maria, ausuka, FL} (which I'm pretty sure isn't even close to an universal pool but like whatever) doesn't feel right to me.
And it also feels like Maria is like "I don't care if I get lynched if it's for the Greater Good™!" half of the time, and the other half of the time she's just like "Don't lynch me! These guys are total scum, lynch them instead!" the other half of the time.

Well sure, he doesn't want to hand out townreads in the lynchpool, but he can push anyone for any reason. Me, Maria, Katherine all have a lot of reasons for someone to go after us. Why does he choose to scumread us for townreading him in particular? That definitely would scare people off for basically no gain. Also, his insistence scum didn't bus makes this game a lot harder for him especially if his partner is in {Maria, Ausuka, FL} because after he gets three of us lynched (and kills three of us too, which COULD not happen) that's 3v2 at best. And that's IF he is the last lynch in the lynchpool and the scumpartner isn't a suspected player either.

Idk I feel like it's just Maria/FL here.

In regard to his insistance scum didn't bus: If the people who voted Implosion don't think scum bussed, it doesn't really matter what Tchill says about it. Not accepting that, if it is accepted, makes Tchill a much more likely lynch.

You can't convince people of an opinion you don't hold, though, so Tchill probably has to go the reverse at some point (unless his scumpartner is a widely townread Implo voter. It would work well in that scenario, but I don't think that's very likely.) And he didn't have to advocate for scum on Luca as strongly as he did- that just makes it more likely someone will point it out later, if he does reverse his position, and if someone is actually convinced by his arguments that would definitely make his job as scum harder.

On the same note, he didn't start the day hard townreads on everyone who voted Implosion. Eg, bringing up Luca as a potential lynch quite hard at the start of the day.

Eh I suppose that's true.

[Ausuka]

@Aus - I was just saying things hypothetically. Killing you would drastically change the game state and cause loads of confusion in the town and force people to change sides and not trust anyone.

If scum really is Havo and gamma/mumble/you then I don't think they want confusion anyway- they want a Tchill lynch, and they want to get rid of the player calling them out. People changing sides and not trusting sides is bad news for a team who put everything into a bus d1.

[Ausuka]

I agree that Luca wasn't a good d2 lynch, but the pioneers of the wagon (Hopkirk and Tchill) are a lot less likely to be scum than some of the people who opportunistically hopped on it and made it an L-1 wagon with just a few posts (Havo, Gamma, Mumble) IMO.

I like this. Those are the three I’d probably go in.

I don’t know how I feel on tchill right now, but I feel like i’ll be able to sort him eventually, and he’ll work with me in the meantime

Where did Tchill try to derail Implo? He literally just voted Luca and didn't even remotely defend implo- he supported the lynch but he said he'd rather lynch Luca. I don't see how that's a scum effort to avoid the implo lynch- if that's what it was, surely he would've at least tried to defend implosion from the lynch.

[Ausuka]

So if he thinks he can't say "wait hold on I was ISOing implo and this makes him town, y'all should unvote' and derail the lynch, why does he switch to Luca and doom himself to suspicion when implo inevitably flips instead of taking the bus and getting a lot of towncred for it?

[Ausuka]

"Well the competing wagons will be good for future day phases."

He literally encourages the Implo wagon here.

Literally the only thing even coming close to derailing the Implo wagon is "If you're on a different wagon I'd love for you to switch to either Luca or mumble." and if his intention is to derail the wagon here I'm not sure why he jumps on implo thirty posts later. Also if you're trying to derail a wagon I think you generally do a LOT more than that.

[Ausuka]

"Well the competing wagons will be good for future day phases."

He literally encourages the Implo wagon here.

Literally the only thing even coming close to derailing the Implo wagon is "If you're on a different wagon I'd love for you to switch to either Luca or mumble." and if his intention is to derail the wagon here I'm not sure why he jumps on implo thirty posts later. Also if you're trying to derail a wagon I think you generally do a LOT more than that.

This is weak as hell mate. He jumps on Implosion for under a page. He tried to make the competing wagons Luca and Mumble and then Mumble PR'd him. Stop giving these garbage replies full of wifom around him, it's annoying me. Flavour, if you're town you should know his other major push Katherine is also town. This slot is scum

He voted the wagons that weren't Implo for the majority of the time, just like I did and Maria did and the FL slot did and even your slot kinda did w/Mumble. I'm not denying that. And my points aren't WIFOM, that's nothing but a buzzword. I'm responding to the points you're making against Tchill which don't make sense to me. How is "Tchill wasn't derailing the Implo wagon" WIFOM while "Tchill was derailing the Implo wagon" isn't?

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Havo

Because........?

Maria is a really, really, really, really weird and strange kill coming from any scumteam that doesn't include Havo.
I also think this is a Boon kill.

That distancing didn't take long.

Yeah because the scumteam that makes the most sense is definitely Ausuka/Havo.

[Ausuka]

I'm not shading the claim. I think that he is possible scum because of his vote on Luca and I don't like how you seem to be saying I can't do that.

[Ausuka]

Nah, Mumble’s town.

Why?

[Ausuka]

Yeah and then voted Havo for the rest of the day.

[Ausuka]

I'm not shading the claim. I think that he is possible scum because of his vote on Luca and I don't like how you seem to be saying I can't do that.

lumping him in was not a good look imo

Why not? They're the three players who weren't the organisers of the wagon {Hopkirk, tchill} and jumped on it, probably to get a mislynch.
If what FL says about Mumble is true, you are scum or Mumble is scum or both.

[Ausuka]

This sets up Tchill, Ausuka, and ME! BOONSKIIES!

As the players not on Implo d1, we were already set up.

At this point I think the scumteam is probably one of Havo/Gamma, Havo/Kookoo or Tchill/FL, in order of likelihood. I still think Havo is a better vote than Gamma though.

[Ausuka]

My thoughts on your "changing the narrative" point is that changing the narrative is definitely not the only reason to kill Maria, nor does it even come close to being the best or most likely one.

[Ausuka]

Can you go over the alternatives/explain them.

What a coincidence! I actually have a big post I started last night about that and then I stopped because I was tired. I've been busy with marathons today but I can start working on it now.

[Ausuka]

Has Havo done anything town?

Yes I have.

Eh.

[Ausuka]

@Luca for future reference: I almost always sleep between the hours of 11pm and 7am GMT. I cannot unvote during those times under any circumstances. If you waited for me to wake up before self-hammering, I actually could have read the thirty odd posts you made and hopefully spoken to you directly.

Properly read until end of I think 86. Stopping for rougly 20 mins then reading more.

Hmm. The Maria NK is very, very sketchy.

What’s sketchy about it?

The fact that she was a good ML candidate for today and scum killed her anyway?

They only narrowed my pool down for me.

It went from Maria, Kath/Kook, Ausuka to

Ausuka, Kook

Kook replaced Cedrick not Katherine.

Yes, thanks for that.

So it's Ausuka, Flavor.

left in my scumpool.

I will admit though, that Ausukas postings of late have sound much more towny to me.

So you think Tchill is town and the people defending him and pushing different targets are both scum?

[Ausuka]

Stop. We are doing Tchill and he can pick if we do flavour or asuka tomorrow if he towns.

Like you would follow through with it. lol.

Town never follows through on that kinda stuff.

Just because you and this site are shit doesn't mean I'm the same.

lol

[Ausuka]

@Luca for future reference: I almost always sleep between the hours of 11pm and 7am GMT. I cannot unvote during those times under any circumstances. If you waited for me to wake up before self-hammering, I actually could have read the thirty odd posts you made and hopefully spoken to you directly.

Properly read until end of I think 86. Stopping for rougly 20 mins then reading more.

Hmm. The Maria NK is very, very sketchy.

What’s sketchy about it?

The fact that she was a good ML candidate for today and scum killed her anyway?

They only narrowed my pool down for me.

It went from Maria, Kath/Kook, Ausuka to

Ausuka, Kook

Kook replaced Cedrick not Katherine.

Yes, thanks for that.

So it's Ausuka, Flavor.

left in my scumpool.

I will admit though, that Ausukas postings of late have sound much more towny to me.

So you think Tchill is town and the people defending him and pushing different targets are both scum?

Scum would want Tchill to hang around, due to all the controversy surrounding him, I do think he's town, but I also think he's played poorly this game and become a problem for town. So I'm not opposing his lynch, he could flip scum, but I would be very surprised. But it might be necessary for town to be able to move forward. Unless he's cleared by a confirmed towny, like an Un CC'd cop claim or something, his slot is going to be an issue.

So just because you think he's town with me, doesn't mean I'm gonna town read you for that.
You are more of a POE for me than a scum read.

Does that make sense to you?

Well yeah I guess most of it does. But if we're scum trying to keep tchill alive, why am I pushing you while FL pushes gamma? It's not like we couldn't justify a wagon on each other.

[Ausuka]

Okay, so yea, Ausuka or Flavour tomorrow regardless of Tchill flip. Tchill first.

I'll pass.

[Ausuka]

Havo do you really think the Luca wagon was all-town? With the way that formed and went to lynch so quickly, doesn't it seem likely to you that Gamma and Mumble are scummy for jumping on the wagon oppurtunity when it happened?

The Luca wagon was definitely good for scum, very, very good.

[Ausuka]

If Gamma and Mumble are town that makes you like 90% scum though. I very firmly believe that the way the wagon exploded on Luca did not 100% happen because of town players.

[Ausuka]

Like, look at what we have d2.
Ausuka, Maria, Tchill are our lynch targets, everything else is pretty much no-go.
Now imagine you're scum. If the scumteam isn't Ausuka and Tchill, which is another matter entirely, this is all you have until you get thrown into the spotlight. And then an oppurtunity pops up to either lynch or throw a permanent shade on an unkillable townread townie. Do you go for it? Yes. Yes you do.

I'm trying to consider that I'm just being dumb and it's Tchill/FL and everyone else is right but I just have a really hard time seeing it.

[Ausuka]

He was super towny this game though. Everyone agreed, everyone did, that he was town because of the way wagons developed d1. I believe even you did! And he got lynched within hours.
Of course town was voting him. I just find it more likely that, say, 3 town voted him than 5 town voted him (not counting the selfhammer.)

[Ausuka]

Spoiler: GAME SPOILERS

The scumteam is actually not Flavor and Ausuka!

[Ausuka]

If you believe that and you're saying I'm town that means after flavor flips scum, you know it because your his partner, you'll flip your read on me then you'll say I guess scum did bus.

It explains why you're TR'ing me so heavily and why flavor is pursuing gamma. If you get gamma lynched you avoid lynching your partner completely.

Maybe I just TR you because I think you're town and flavour is pushing gamma because he thinks gamma is scum? Not that much of a stretch. You're saying all this stuff is going to happen but there's no evidence behind any of it.

[Ausuka]

I mean you're both actually against my lynch rn and there's no real reason for it.

It makes sense imo.

You mean apart from the things that I have stated in the thread multiple times?
I'm not gonna lie, I'm getting tired of this song and dance.

[Ausuka]

I want to know why flavor and ausuka don't expect a team with X/tchill from the other or why they haven't mentioned the possibility of the other being scum with someone who did bus.

VOTE: Tchill
okay this is too much.

[Ausuka]

I want to know why flavor and ausuka don't expect a team with X/tchill from the other or why they haven't mentioned the possibility of the other being scum with someone who did bus.

VOTE: Tchill
okay this is too much.

Lmao. Worst time to flip on me if you really think I'm town. Looks bad on you.

I used to think you were town but you've been pushing fake thought processes for too long now. It's like you're not even reading the thread.

[Ausuka]

I mean you're both actually against my lynch rn and there's no real reason for it.

It makes sense imo.

You mean apart from the things that I have stated in the thread multiple times?
I'm not gonna lie, I'm getting tired of this song and dance.

Can you rank this group in order of town to most not town for me?

Flavor, Tchill, Hopkirk, Kook, Creature

Most town

Hopkirk
Creature
Flavor
Kook
Tchill

probably.

I'd probably put you, and maybe gamma, below tchill, but that's not happening today and it's definitely not gonna happen while tchill is around if he's town, so whatever.

[Ausuka]

I mean you're both actually against my lynch rn and there's no real reason for it.

It makes sense imo.

You mean apart from the things that I have stated in the thread multiple times?
I'm not gonna lie, I'm getting tired of this song and dance.

It's tone and pushing others than tr me isn't it? So why is me pushing you a red flag?

That was how I thought on d2 because of who you were pushing. You've been pushing thoughts that don't make sense for a while now though and there is no way you get to lylo anyway.

[Ausuka]

I want to know why flavor and ausuka don't expect a team with X/tchill from the other or why they haven't mentioned the possibility of the other being scum with someone who did bus.

VOTE: Tchill
okay this is too much.

So no answer? Just a dismissal and vote?

Here's my answer: I have mentioned the possibility of Flavor and Tchill in this thread, so that's blatantly false. I was also pushing Havo/FL at the start of the day pretty strongly so that's also blatantly not true.

[Ausuka]

What doesn't make sense about you and flavor? You have to admit even if you're town that's a strong possiblilty. Or me and flavor is a strong possibility. Or me/flavor and someone who bussed is a good possibility.

You haven't pushed any of those.

It totally could be me and flavor from your POV, sure. But the points you're bringing up to actually support the view don't seem like real thoughts at all.
Like I had to fight hard to protect you from the lynch today already and I'm just not at all willing to do so anymore.

[Ausuka]

What? Why would I be more okay with flipping FL, who is probably town here, than you, who probably has a like 40-50% chance of being scum at this point? I've taken Havo/FL and Tchill/FL into account, publicly. That's what you mentioned as your point- that I wasn't considering certain scumteams.

[Ausuka]

So would you be okay with flipping flavor first?since he's in both possibilities?

So if you weren't voting me rn would flavor be your preferred lynch?

No, that would be Havo.

[Ausuka]

If Tchill is town Kook is a very serious candidate for scum from the way they've been tunneling Tchill all day and calling anyone who doesn't join them a shit player.
I feel like scum!FL plays a more active role and tries to get himself in a much better position than he is in right now. Like sure he could be scum with pretty much anyone, but I'm not sure how likely that really is as a possibility. He's not a hard townread but I do think he is probably more likely to be town than Kook.

[Ausuka]

So would you be okay with flipping flavor first?since he's in both possibilities?

So if you weren't voting me rn would flavor be your preferred lynch?

No, that would be Havo.

That doesn't fundamentally make sense seeing how he's only in once scenario when flavor is in two.

Havo/Gamma
Havo/Kookoo
Havo/Tchill

All possible scumteams.

You're acting like I think FL/Havo and FL/Tchill are the only possible teams which is very, very far from the truth.

[Ausuka]

FL/Tchill was the world in which I was dumb and completely wrong. Right now, I don't think I was completely wrong, but I do think there's a pretty high chance I was wrong about tchill at least.
Havo/FL was the start of the day. The way FL treated Havo makes them pretty unlikely to be partners, imo.

[Ausuka]

No kookoo should definitely leave.

[Ausuka]

I'm on mobile right now. I'll type my thoughts on Havo into one post on Saturday morning GMT but it won't be revolutionary.

[Ausuka]

I don't even know. If I'm wrong on Tchill rn nothing is going to change.

[Ausuka]

Well, I'm awake now and on PC so I'll give the reasoning for me scumreading Havo.

Point 1: The Maria NightKill Is Really Odd Coming From Anyone But Havo, And The Other Theories Don't Seem Likely

Ok so I already know what everyone is going to say here. "It was WIFOM." or "She was killed to FRAME HAVO!" or "She was killed to change the narrative." But none of these seem likely to me. I just don't see mafia killing a potential lynch target because they're thinking "Lol just think of the WIFOM!" What purpose does mafia actually get from that? And killing a potential mislynch to throw shade on a player you might not even get to mislynch anyway is just a transparently terrible move for anyone. At best you're trading a mislynch for a different mislynch, while all the PRs get another night to use their actions (because Maria claimed VT, remember. On a completely irrelevant note, Mumble is scummy for this and I really hope the meta multiple people have told me about is accurate.) And scum wanting to change the narrative doesn't make sense, either. I mean you could argue that it's me and Tchill making a last-ditch effort, but I at least know that's not the case, and it's a really bad last-ditch effort. If that's really what we wanted, why didn't we kill me and then have Tchill claim 1-shot vig or JOAT with a vig shot? We probably would've won the game in that scenario. Killing Maria is just a really weak thing and it would only further seal our fate by taking away a mislynch oppurtunity.

On the other hand, what if scum killed Maria... because she was right, because the lynchpool was bad and there was scum outside the common mentality and {Maria, FL, Ausuka, Tchill} had less than 2 scum in it? Because Havo was scum, after all? Maria was pretty consistent late in the day, with her push on Havo. As scum, that's not something you want around at all. Shooting her lets you get rid of what I'm pretty sure was literally the only dissident to the lynchpool mentality at the time, and if you're scum!Havo, it lets you get rid of the only player who was calling you out as scum. That makes you look a lot townier in the gamestate, when nobody is scumreading you. And what's more, nobody cares what dead town thought anyway, so you probably get away with it. Like, I still don't think it's an optimal kill exactly, but I think it makes so much more sense coming from a scum Havo.

Point 2: The Luca Wagon Probably Had At Least One Scum On It, And Most Others Are Towny

"Like, look at what we have d2.
Ausuka, Maria, Tchill are our lynch targets, everything else is pretty much no-go.
Now imagine you're scum. If the scumteam isn't Ausuka and Tchill, which is another matter entirely, this is all you have until you get thrown into the spotlight. And then an oppurtunity pops up to either lynch or throw a permanent shade on an unkillable townread townie. Do you go for it? Yes. Yes you do."
I'm too lazy to rephrase this so I'm just copy + pasting it from another post. I think that when Luca suddenly grew from 2 people discussing a scumteam together to a 5-player L-1 wagon within like 5 posts, scum hopped on it then. Tchill and Hopkirk started the wagon. Maybe one of them flips scum, but meh. Multiple people have told me Mumble and Gamma are town by meta. I'm not 100% convinced but I'll leave them for now. And that only leaves havo.

Point 3: Scum Could Have Wagoned Havo With This Stuff, But They Did Nothing

So Havo definitely doesn't look towny here. There's a lot of room to push and make Havo into a viable wagon. But when I talk about these things all I've had so far is radio silence. I feel like if Havo is town scum would be a lot more willing to push on him and get him lynched, leaving the {Ausuka, Tchill, FL} group until later.

So yeah. That's why I think Havo is scum.

[Ausuka]

Wait let me try something.
VOTE: Creature

[Ausuka]

O_O
It's like if Kain Tepes was obsessed with anime

truth

[Ausuka]

more IMPOTENTLY if Luca was so scummy to get wagonned againa I think Ausuka wouldnt have altered her cognizance in the first place! So ya I think this votecount REVEALS the TRUTH that Ausuka might be infromed!! Σ(･口･)

I was literally offline for the ENTIRE luca wagon. I'm not even kidding. Luca was town to EVERYONE and the lynch happened in hours.

[Ausuka]

WELL i think anoter replacement would hurt the game so i dont realy mind....

Ok.

Why is Tchill scum (in normal words)?

Whatdo you mean NORMAL words? I literllay just explained it in my wall but okay....

i think that it dosent make sense for the wagon composition to be all town, so there HAS to be at least one in {Havo, Gamma, Hopkirk, TChill, You}. I believe your tracker claim sofar since we dont have more claims and it's not a PRIORITY to kill a tracker. {Havo, Gamma, Hopkirk} from my VCA are probably all town or just have one scum. so PROCESS OF ELMINATION says that TChill is likely scum from that

Why is Havo town from VCA though?

[Ausuka]

Havo do you really think the Luca wagon was all-town? With the way that formed and went to lynch so quickly, doesn't it seem likely to you that Gamma and Mumble are scummy for jumping on the wagon oppurtunity when it happened?

The Luca wagon was definitely good for scum, very, very good.

Gamma and Mumble are TOWN.
End of story.

You'll have to look elsewhere.

ALSO this reds to me like a very SUSPICIOUS line of questioning fron Ausuk, it's a very INQUITIOUS INQUIRY - like shes trying to manipulate Havo to ALTER THE THOUGHTS THAT LUCIDLY RESIDE IN HIS METOPOSCOPY? （ΟΔΟ；；)

No. I think out of {Mumble, Gamma, Havo} there is at least 1 scum and I think it is Havo. I was trying to get Havo to show me why one of the other two is scum instead. I'm a bad player and I often get things wrong so I don't want to accidentally get into a tunnel.

[Ausuka]

Most town
Hopkirk
Creature
Flavor
Kook
Tchill

probably.

I'd probably put you, and maybe gamma, below tchill, but that's not happening today and it's definitely not gonna happen while tchill is around if he's town, so whatever.

actuaely wait this is confusin...... okay SO

you think tchill is town evidentyl since because you put him in "Most town" and you have two people below him, BUT THEN you go and vote him? While you have OTHER scumreads?

okay i thought maybe this could mean i was wrong about ausuak but this could easily be distrancing.... (；´д｀)ゞ

Asukua this makes NO SENSE

No, that's saying Tchill is the least town of the five, not the most town.

[Ausuka]

well EITHER WAY she thinks the teams are FL/Havo, FL/Tchill, Havo/{Gamma, COokoo, Tchill} so her PROSEPCTIVE is that HAVO has the most scum equity here

No you guys are taking my posts wildly out of context. They're not the only possible scumteams here, that's not what I was saying at all. Tchill first asked why I wasn't considering FL with tchill himself or with someone who was on Implo d1, and I responded by saying I had openly discussed the possibility of FL/Tchill and FL/Havo. Then Tchill said I shouldn't be voting Havo because he was in only 1 scumteam. I responded by giving 3 other very possible scumteams with Havo in them.

If I have to make a ranking:

Tchill/Havo
Havo/Gamma
Havo/Creature
Tchill/Gamma

Havo/FL
Tchill/FL
Gamma/Creature
Gamma/FL

Creature/FL
Havo/Mumble
Gamma/Mumble
Creature/Mumble
Tchill/Mumble
Mumble/FL

Havo/Hopkirk
Tchill/Hopkirk
Gamma/Hopkirk
Creature/Hopkirk
Hopkirk/FL
Havo/Simyk
Gamma/Simyk
Simyk/Creature
Simyk/FL
Simyk/Mumble

Tchill/Creature
Hopkirk/Mumble
Simyk/Hopkirk
Tchill/Simyk

[Ausuka]

Top is the most likely to be the scumteam and bottom is least likely, of course.

Actually also put havo/simyk in red zone.

[Ausuka]

Hopkirk do you want to join the ~magical wagon~ on Creature?

[Ausuka]

I think tchill is a good lynch for today but I don't want to do it yet.

Think of the

information

we could get by wagoning Creature!

[Ausuka]

Because it's never that easy. Havo/Tchill is the best possibility IMO but it's definitely far from confirmed and we should definitely, definitely prepare for a scenario where it's wrong.

[Ausuka]

Besides, what do we have to lose?

[Ausuka]

I think you misunderstand. I don't want to lynch Creature. I want to wagon him.

[Ausuka]

Tchill's at L-1? News to me?

[Ausuka]

Anyway I do actually have reasons for wanting to wagon Creature specifically. I promise I'll vote Tchill afterwards unless he does something really obvtown.

[Ausuka]

Tchill's at L2.

Actually he's at L-3. I switched my vote to Creature.

[Ausuka]

Why not wagon Havo?

I'm totally willing to but that wouldn't be an info wagon and I think everyone knows that already

[Ausuka]

You're both pretty high up but neither of you are Tchill or Havo. I know I said Tchill was townier than you when I first voted Tchill but that isn't the case anymore. It's not like I thought too much about the positioning; there were too many possibilities for that.

[Ausuka]

I think tchill is a good lynch for today but I don't want to do it yet.

Think of the

information

we could get by wagoning Creature!

This is 100% certifiably stupid

No, it's the smartest idea ever.

[Ausuka]

Wagoning Creature is not an information play ever

You're just jealous you didn't come up with the idea first.

[Ausuka]

No but seriously I do actually want to wagon Creature. He was towny d1 but having less posts than the mod and most other players is DEFINITELY not something I usually see from town!Creature.

[Ausuka]

And sorting him will definitely make this game easier.

[Ausuka]

But Creature's town.

Well yeah but why though.

[Ausuka]

Like I get he's probably busy irl or something but it's hard to be sure of anything this game and it's been so long since Creature was active. That slot just can't be locktown right now and the game gets a lot easier if it is.

[Ausuka]

I know Creature's meta fine, maybe better than you do- I've correctly read him in every game we've played together (apart from one game back in 2015 when he didn't have his meta, but I was very different then, so that's irrelevant.)

Is Creature Active?

No.

Is Creature doing his usual stream of consciousness posting?

No.

Is Creature confident in his towniness?

Kinda.

Is Creature taking the easy outs on his reads (IE Obvtown town, lynchbaits consensus scum)?
No.

My read on Creature this game is conflicted and that's never happened before. I want to wagon him purely to help sort him. I've probably already said too much about it, but oh well.

[Ausuka]

So I did a meta check and determined Creature does not bus.

viewtopic.php?p=9409381#p9409381
viewtopic.php?p=9413200#p9413200
viewtopic.php?p=9447396#p9447396
viewtopic.php?p=9456708#p9456708
viewtopic.php?p=9466300#p946630
viewtopic.php?p=9541406#p9541406

All from my two scumgames with him.

You're wrong and possibly scum.

[Ausuka]

So I did a meta check and determined Creature does not bus.

viewtopic.php?p=9409381#p9409381
viewtopic.php?p=9413200#p9413200
viewtopic.php?p=9447396#p9447396
viewtopic.php?p=9456708#p9456708
viewtopic.php?p=9466300#p946630
viewtopic.php?p=9541406#p9541406

All from my two scumgames with him.

You're wrong and possibly scum.

My sample size is greater

That doesn't matter because you were saying that Creature doesn't bus. Even one or two links is enough to prove that this isn't true; Creature is willing to bus if he thinks it's optimal, just like most people. I don't understand why most people in this game think busses are such a rare thing.

fak off with your "anyone who disagrees is scum" bs

This is uncalled for.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: tchill
whatever. i don't care enough to keep pushing for creature wagon.

[Ausuka]

I'M NOT THIS TERRIBLE AS SCUM. Geez. I'm town that doesn't try day 1 because we never lynch scum day 1 and now that we did I'm in New territory. This is literally the most "obv" scum I've been since March 17, 2017.

and you have more evidence for ausuka vote ausuka.

What's the evidence for Ausuka again? Because all I've seen is people just kinda grouping me into their scumpools just because I wasn't on implo d1.

[Ausuka]

If

she

was town and

she

really thought I was town

she

wouldn't flip because I'm attacking

her

/flavor. I've attacked everyone that pushed a TR on me.

She

should be used to that.

I'm not changing because you were attacking you and flavour, I changed because your reasons for doing so made no sense as a town viewpoint.

[Ausuka]

BOTH HAD A NUETRAL STANCE ON IMPLOSION DAY 1 AND BOTH VOTED LUCA DAY 1. One of them is scum. We have 3 lynches left. So we need to lynch both of them within those 3 lynches.

YEAH AND GUESS WHO ELSE VOTED LUCA D1? TCHILL13

[Ausuka]

You refused to take a stance on implosion day 1.

I said implo was null. I was indifferent towards him because I didn't think he said much of note. That's a reasonable viewpoint to have. Scumleaning him but not voting him when it comes down to it isn't exactly a lot townier than nullreading him.

Besides, nullreading your partners is a play that makes 0 sense to do unless you really think you would do it as town and even then it's a pretty bad decision. Like it's not that hard to just defend them and it's infinitely better to do so.

[Ausuka]

Not sure it's a coincidence I get all of this nonsense after I begin to openly talk about Creature!scum, you know. But hey he's been lurking for days which is his townplay, so it's all good.