Mini Normal 2002: The Thaw OVERRRRRRRRR

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: Titus

[Cheetory6]

I'll PM Spiff so he knows to replace in and ruin the experience for you (;

[Cheetory6]

whatever you say titus

[Cheetory6]

Relax spoilsport.
You'll be pining for the more relaxed earlygame before too long.

[Cheetory6]

Who do you think is scum atm?

[Cheetory6]

How would you describe your scumhunting process?
What sort of criteria do you need from a game before you can start parsing someone as town or scum?

[Cheetory6]

shh

[Cheetory6]

yes. I am trying to figure out how to play mafia.

[Cheetory6]

You could have solved that by just answering the question.
(:

[Cheetory6]

So close

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: gamma
These last few posts don't read at all like towngamma.

[Cheetory6]

So much less intonation than you just saying that flavor is scum.

[Cheetory6]

:v

[Cheetory6]

It's mostly just that it's an incredibly overblown reaction to a degree that it just doesn't feel like something he'd actually think/say?

[Cheetory6]

just do it why would a town player self vote ever in his life

to call you surface level would be an insult to the ground floor
surrender? trolling? idk some whacked ass reason? I've self-voted as town too many times imo
and in fact you thinking it's a scum thing tells me you know absolutely jack about Flavor (also known as boonskiies) and self-voting. He did it so much as town for a time it became a borderline trust tell. So like, your read is wrong on so many levels
PEdit: orrrr Fong's gambit

VOTE: Saudade
alright if he's supposed to know this shit I'm not gonna play "dumb or scum?" with him, I'll just take it as scum since dumb is out of the window

Referring more to these.

P-Edit: Oh hey nice I'm explaining now that I'm not on a phone want to stop spewing shit that's accomplishing nothing now or are you hoping to set a precedent for how the rest of this game is going to go?

[Cheetory6]

I don't really like my vote anymore anyways.

[Cheetory6]

@Flavor

, what out of your play in that newbie game should have made it clear to Saudade that this is something that you would be likely to do as either alignment?

Prism replaces WhyMafia

Can you please do a votecount?

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: Flavor

[Cheetory6]

Stance on Flavor Leaf?

[Cheetory6]

Hoopla pinged me pretty hard with her first few posts, but players who seem to know her well taking her entrance as normal walked that back a little.
Also liked her stance on not really giving that much of a shit about who the D1 lynch is.

I would probably vote MOI if I start liking Flavor more.
His play so far kind of has the same kind of vibe that he had in another scumgame [Biochem].

[Cheetory6]

I barely remember Defcon tbh.
I just remember your pushes feeling kind of vacant in Biochem and I'm getting that same kind of vibe here.

[Cheetory6]

Okay, it's not really pushes, but moreso the angles?

I mean ... the whole "Oops wrong thread" play is so cheeky scum.

This in particular just felt like the same sort of thing you used to get the ball rolling as scum while trying to justify a vote.

Something about the approach feels off?
[Which I will admit is pretty nebulous, but there's also that I'm not really getting townvibes from other things that you're doing, so that doesn't help either ]

[Cheetory6]

I think it's kind of misreppy to imply that I'm saying every aspect of your play here is the same as there. I just think there's elements of your play so far that strike me as pretty similar to there and that gutfeel is the second best thing I have in my hand in terms of reads right now.

[Cheetory6]

I mean, if you think I'm urgently requesting that you start acting town posthaste before I murder you to death with a wagon then you're clearly misreading how confident I feel/how interested I am in hardpushing you.

[Cheetory6]

owch

[Cheetory6]

Okay, so, let's play a game!

It's called, "someone explain to me what Flavor has done so far that's outside his scumrange"- the game!!!!!!!!!

In particular, I'm curious why people think that scumFlavor wouldn't do gambitty stuff like a self-vote fake L-1 and why people think that scumFlavor wouldn't drop a fakeclaim to deter the wagon on himself. Because I personally think both of those things are more likely to come from scumHim than townHim [or at least the way he used it as an excuse to pivot momentum back onto Saudade reads theatrical in a way that I strongly associate with scumFlavor]

I also think the Saudade "paranoia" from Flavor looks a lot more like an excuse to build up a push than a genuine interest in trying to parse him and I 100% want the specific reasons why Flavor thinks Saudade should know that Flavor would selfvote as either alignment, and until that's been explained I don't know why anyone is taking his word that Saudade should know better.

[Cheetory6]

I was wrong gamma is town
):

[Cheetory6]

Wow what a fucking bitch you are, trying to end it before I get my chance to roast you
first off you having to call me "most 100% wrong" is fucking childish. Second you still haven't demonstrated in the slightest how what I'm doing is wrong.
Now I don't care if we end it, you've already made yourself look like a bitch

Maybe you should take a breather from the game!

Lol, just lynch me. Idk how to defend myself here. I’ve done too much stupid stuff.

I mean, this sentiment rings kind of hollow when you've implied you're very confident about Saudade being scum and are being asked to elaborate on why. Being defeatist here is pretty strange.
Are you or are you not confident about him being scum? And if yes, why aren't you at least making it clear why he should know better about your selfvote?

Imma flip VT, not a PR. It’s fine.

Lol.

[Cheetory6]

I have not played with Saudade before, kill him.

[Cheetory6]

Only because I've played with him before and would like him to stay further in the game

:V

issa joke.

On an unrelated note
VOTE: MOI
sure yeah lets kill this guy.

[Cheetory6]

Or I guess it's semi-related because I was originally joking about Saudade.

[Cheetory6]

I don't really think Gamma is capable of faking anger in that kind of way as scum.

[Cheetory6]

The last bit of 218 was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back of me having been wavering pretty hard on the scumlean.

I've done a lot of Gamma metadiving lately and it's just something that isn't a part of his scumgame in the same way that it is his towngame.
[and I don't think he's been caught out on a lack of anger as a scumtell/it's not something that I think a lot of people are aware of. I didn't really think he'd suddenly start faking being angry in a scumgame [and I also didn't think it was something he'd be likely to convincingly fake without practice]]

[Cheetory6]

Like, realistically I was thinking it around 213, but I don't always like admitting that I'm wrong.

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: Flavor
L-1 weeeeeeeeeeee

@Flavor

, can we get a final readlist? Preferably with reasons please and ty.

Your votes are pointless and a waste of time.

Ftr I feel like if I was really confident and enough of a dick about it [and this was a year ago when I still had the energy for tryharding in mafia], I could probably get MOI lynched on D1?
Doesn't mean it would necessarily be a good idea, but I don't really think he's unlynchable?

What point is there bloating the thread any more?

I guess it depends on how much you care about winning?
I hope you're going to put more effort into trying to parse people tomorrow. >.>

I'm also not really a big fan of your CoA read-they've asked questions and given passable reads, but from what I see they haven't followed up on the questions and engaged with them further. This is the definition of surface-level activity for me; there's no clear cognition going on afterwards.

Do you feel like people should be convinced to vote for CoA with this?
At the very least you should be pulling examples and pointing to specific posts that you think are bad from them.

[Cheetory6]

I can tell this is not a Geriatric game. Grey if you hadn’t been signed up for this I never would have joined.

I think you might be overstating how bad this game is?
Like, unless you've been super spoiled by geriatic games. Overall this is pretty straightforward/lean in terms of current site standards?
[And I know you can handle worse climates than this given how often you've played large themes, so this seems a little out of place tbh]

So that got me thinking about the players who have been hard Town reading Saud. I’m not including Flavor because … its Boon his reads flip around like a flag in the breeze. I mean Implosion and Erika.

You'd better hope Flavor doesn't get lynched and flip scum because if that happens and I'm alive tomorrow, you're getting roasted super hard for this

1. He’s more antagonistic against those voting him than scum should be? Um, no that purely a function of personality than alignment – some people are always going to be more aggressive against attackers while some are going to be downright passive.

I think in general, scum are less likely to be antagonistic in a non-productive way though?
Sure, there are like.. 4-5 scumplayers who can be abrasive and shit to people, but it's not exactly the standard.
I think it's reasonable for implosion to read this as town [and I think it's something he could read as town as town?]

Of the three of us only one (Gamma) bothered to even respond. This led to Gamma and Saud’s lovely back and forth starting at 296. Hoopla and I didn’t bother and Saud never said two peeps about it despite the fact that he’s made it clear more than once he thinks scum jumped on him. And he never voted either any of the three of us after this - just basically vote parks Flavor. My takeaway is that he’s being very wishy-washy against those on his wagon … blowing a bunch of hot air with no followup beyond a name-calling session with Gamma.

I could easily see myself getting distracted from productive questioning by a fight as town. I think it's generally kind of normal for that kind of stuff to happen?

Implosion is implicitly saying he’s Town in his posts. Next he’s voting me at this stage so he is presenting that he thinks I am scum. Yet he’s giving Saud Town points for being hesitant to vote me. Why in god’s green earth would Saud get Town points for being hesitant to vote a person he thinks is quite possibly scum who jumped on his wagon? Does that make sense? If anything I’d expect Town Implosion who thinks I am scum to wonder why Saud didn’t jump on the wagon not give him Town points.

This point requires implosion to think that a scumSaudade playing this way would be hesitant to join a wagon for fear of looking bad. Also requires him to think that all town players are going to play the same way he is.

I'm kind of struggling to understand why you think this would be white-knighting for the purpose of pocketing Saudade, rather than white-knighting for the purposes of generating content? Do you think implosion would look at Saudade and think "hey this is who I should want to be pocketing here right now!" because I can't really imagine that happening and I don't really understand why you think he would think that would be valuable. [Or at least I just don't really think the reasons you're putting forward are realistic]

stinks of scum who thought they had a nice ego inflating sure thing mislynch-wagon on me and saw the change in the wind and thought "Oh shit ... need to abort this ASAP".

Can you point me to where the wagon on you was discredited to a degree that would make Erika this self-conscious about their push on you?

In other news, Implosion reads pretty town in the ISOdive.
His response to MOI's case on him is:

[Cheetory6]

I guess to some degree I tend to like to think that enough time poking/prodding people will make it more obvious who town/scum is in the long run.

But I'm also kind of aware that dragging my heels on D1 in the past has made the game generally more unfun/I tend to get kind of muddled by end of D1 so I'm willing to go with an earlier lynch.

It's just that if we go this route, I kind of want a guarantee that if you're town here, you're going to start dropping some hardcore Hoopla scumhunting tomorrow. [Because it does honestly make you and Flavor a lot harder to read when you're not really participating in the scumhunt, if that makes sense?]

Grey I really need to you get in here and give me some insight because I am going nuts watching this. I don't think Saud and Implosion / Erika are all partners. But I am having a hard as hell time deciding which side is more scummy.

Can you walk me through the reasoning you thought/potentially still think Saudade is scummy based on their performance in Cheesecake? Specifics preferred. Or point me to where someone already articulated it because tbh I can't recall anyone going into any kind of detail on why they're scum based on meta.

[Cheetory6]

I think this is where I'm at atm?
My scumreads feel so consensus right now :').

Gamma
============
implosion, COA
============
GI
============
Erika, Stefan, Hoopla, Saudade, Hiraki
============
Prism
============
MOI, Flavor

@UCV

can you update the OP playerlist please?

[Cheetory6]

Cool idea you could try to convince people using words

[Cheetory6]

This is weirdly aggressive, it's obviously ideal but you knew it was a broad commentary on a player with a pretty short ISO. There's this expectation, more like a demand, that were I town I would have done it right then, when I clearly had just tackled the game in one sitting and was addressing multiple people and multiple angles, not just been ready to upon request. This doesn't really addup in your own play, which has only sparsely cited posts when not prompted to.

We want to keep people accountable for their reads but the tone here seems less curious and more accusatory

. The reason this bothers me is you've had no stated other issue with my play, and I feel like if you're town there has to be others. The only thing I can think of is if you assumed the CoA vote was meant to attract others to the vote, and that really wasn't my expectation.

It was more meant to be a line of inquiry and a push/challenge. I don't expect every vote from someone to have amazing reasoning with cited posts, but if you're going to be voting for someone who has no votes on them when people are getting close to lynching I would expect either:
i) You asking for more time to catch up.
ii) You trying to convince people if you think you're onto something.

Instead it just kind of seems like a vote for the sake of a vote and a general avoidance of the main conversation, and it's pretty easy to coast by on that. You're saying that it was meant to overly be a placeholder vote and that would sit better with me if there was any sense of urgency to your play given the size of the wagons and the general inclination moving towards getting a lynch right now.

Wrt the bolded, if I think someone is more likely to be scum, I'm going to be more accusatory in my questions/pushes on them.

Looking forward to a catch-up on MoI/implosion from you.

[Cheetory6]

Or we're all bussing him.

[Cheetory6]

Have you taken a look at Prism at all?

[Cheetory6]

You have no idea how ecstatic that makes me feel.
(:

[Cheetory6]

My problem with Cheet is the implicit assumption I was scum from the start with no real basis.

I've walked through my reasoning pretty clearly. This frankly looks like you're digging your heels in just to justify your read on me more than anything. Avoiding picking at the specific reasoning I've given to just continue abstractly attacking my stances just feels icky and like you're intentionally just trying to justify your stance and make it seem like you have reason to scumlean me when it's just hot air.

The double standard here in regards to his own play here is again pretty striking.

Please, elaborate. Because if it's just "OH HIS OPENING WASN'T SUBSTANTIVE EITHER" then I'm going to probably grill you over an open fire.
(:

I have a really hard time buying that I am the only player who utilizes votes as more than a tool for a lynch.

I feel like you have to really not read what I'm saying to imply that I'm knocking a placeholder/what I'm perceiving as a placeholder vote. It's that we were L-1 on Flavor and you were literally sitting on a vanity wagon with no posts saying something along the lines of "can we please not lynch while I'm getting caught up?"
I literally said this MULTIPLE times in the post.
So.
Feel free to keep pushing this "wow cheet hates placeholder votes" angle because it's really going to make it easy for me to piledrive a wagon on you.

Shit like "I look forward to reading your stance on MoI/Imp" is more focused on keeping me in the rails and under control than it is earnestly trying to see what I come up with.

You really look at me saying that and think "this guy is trying to force me into not parsing other things" instead of "this guy is forcing me to actually follow through with what I'm committing to"???????

[Cheetory6]

Just to really push Cheet's last point, I don't understand how Cheetory dictates your thoughts. It's really weird to say and really makes the good content in 525 feel like it's not fabricated.

I'm honestly not sure what you're saying here tbh.
Can you unpack this a little more?
Are you saying that Prism seems fabricated here or that I seem fabricated?

[Cheetory6]

hoopla I will answer your question now in order to distance

pocketing is when you take a town player and you make them feel good/convince them that you are town and then you put them in your pocket for the rest of the game so they do your bidding and help you win and help you lynch other towns:

Makes me think he'll be easy to boss around later, which is good for me, both from a game PoV and a fun PoV.

basically this if we were town

543 from Hoopla feels really, really ridiculously pockety. I don't like any of her posts on the last page really. If a wagon pops up on her I'll join it, although I'd still rather lynch flavor if we can swing it especially since he's already claimed.

oh this is a good distancing tactic too, nice one

[Cheetory6]

basically this if we were town

addendum: if i were town and you were still scum*

god i spent so much time practicing in the pt and i got it wrong

[Cheetory6]

Why are you two implying that you are mafia and whith each other?

Okay rediculling Flavors theory makes sense

seems like you figured it out!
nice one!

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: stefan
everyone pretend that this vote came before stefan's last posts because it has nothing to do with them

[Cheetory6]

You're stealing my thunder, man.

But goodvoting anyway? Not that you have to work harder to convince me you're town or something

Oops s:
I guess it was my preemptive way of saying thanks for making a case that makes my vote look justifiable .
c:

[Cheetory6]

flavor it's d1 though all of your reads are wrong remember?

[Cheetory6]

oh so I should assume you're scum then if your read on me is wrong?

[Cheetory6]

okay flavor is town then

[Cheetory6]

There is 100% scum in Hoopla, Cheetory, Implosion. I’m leaning more on the former two, as I see Implosion as a mislynchable player.

could they have just done all this as town...?

[Cheetory6]

Kind of baffled that implosion feels good about me not trying right now.
Lol.

[Cheetory6]

hello i have a pile of three players which one is the scum?
can someone figure it out for me?

[ie: why are you unable to come up with an opinion on it yourself?]

[Cheetory6]

I go afk for a couple of days and the wagon vanishes quite so easily eh..

you sound really genuinely bummed about it.

[Cheetory6]

wasnt townreading you and grey seemed confident about you being scum.
im sure thats what you wanted to hear right?
S:

[Cheetory6]

but at the same time saying my case has merrit.

i dont see where implo did this?

[Cheetory6]

grey seems town so far and i am indeed not very confident in my own ability to parse things in this game right now.
(:

[Cheetory6]

do you think im actively trying to lynch you right now?

[Cheetory6]

at least one of flavor leaf and moi must be scum because flavor leaf is calling moi town and that means that moi must be either scum or town and flavor must be either town or scum.

[Cheetory6]

basically as rigorous of reasoning as just calling one of implosion and i scum because we think each other are town.

[Cheetory6]

this is also one of those times that it would be great if stefan could be scum and flavor could be town so i can get to be incredibly indignant at the high and mighty attitude postgame.
i guess i at least get to do that postgame with the read on me if flavor is town.

[Cheetory6]

ah yes wagon composition the tried and true best tool in a scumhunter's arsenal.

[Cheetory6]

Other than him being either town or scum.

well he surely has to be one of them, no?

[i honestly dont think my opinion on him really matters right now. theres basically nothing behind it.]

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: hoopla
im willing to do this specifically so that the one scum in implosion/myself tenet cannot be collapsed into just me being scum.

sorry partner.
if i had it my way i wouldnt lynch the funner person in the game even if i think youre maybe more likely scum than not.

[Cheetory6]

oh while im making barely useful posts,
cultofathena needs to stop lurking or else too!

[Cheetory6]

And my town game is stronger than my scum game

uh

I believe I have played rather well this day phase, though, and I can’t say the same about your play.

uhhhhhhhhh

[Cheetory6]

its also kind of what that youre criticizing grey for referencing a post from page 2 if it's the last place you elaborated on anything specific about hoopla
he literally made a point of saying "this is the last time flavor explained his read there before the vote".

p-edit: i dont really know what i want in this game right now sorry.
):

im just being disappointing.

pp-edit: you were also known as "guy who hammers whenever anyone is at l-1" for a very long time.
implosion described you as anti-town utility regardless of your alignment and nobody batted an eyelid at that.
lol.

like, you can hype your scumgame a little because its hard to lynch you.
but your towngame has been pretty spotty.

[Cheetory6]

i dont understand why youre just goading grey if youre town here.
like, this is clearly going to be awful if you dont just explain why hoopla is scum from your POV?

[Cheetory6]

Also, meta shows I bend the truth more as town than scum, so...

if this is true you could always
just
stop doing that as town?

[Cheetory6]

Cheetory: HE NEVER MADE ANY POST

HE HAS NO REASONS

LYNCH HIM WITH ME.

is the possibility that flavor is like.. terrible town a possibility in your mind?

[Cheetory6]

Idk if that’s an attempt from ScumPlosion

you literally just got out of a game where implosion got roflstomped as your scumbuddy.
did you really think that hes playing the same here that he was there?

[Cheetory6]

hot prediction: the town read on gamma is gone.
he doesnt believe that gamma is this poor a player.

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: Cult

[Cheetory6]

implosion/saudade we need you on this wagon so all of flavor's scumreads can be on it at once

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: Cult

:shrug:

lol. how can you not be okay with the stefan wagon based on composition but be fine with this?

[Cheetory6]

i actually think theres a decentish chance this flips scum.

[Cheetory6]

eh.
this is a little early for grey paranoia.

[Cheetory6]

pagecount is one way of determining how far into a game we are.
what day we're on is another.

[Cheetory6]

how long until you're caught up piplup?

[Cheetory6]

is it preflip to imply that people who are doing preflip are scum?

[Cheetory6]

Cheet and Hoopla - glad to see you both and wish you both could have stayed on longer. Curious if either of you have postgame thoughts to share.

Always sheep me on every read.
Except for my implosion read because it was wrong.

[Cheetory6]

But yeah D1 was enjoyable.
It's too bad that the mid/lategame degraded so much.

Flavor really needs to drop the ego.
And that's coming from cocky-ass me.

[Cheetory6]

Oh also yeah was fun playing with Hoopla/MoI/Grey.
Also also sorry for the lame gutread push on you D1 MoI, I feel like I would have been frustrated if I was in your position dealing with my shit haha.