Mini Normal 2002: The Thaw OVERRRRRRRRR

[Prism]

Comparing Saudade's other game to this one it's clear he's ratcheted up the antagonism a notch (ex. A few sarcastic responses in the Newbie vs. This no-u fest with Gamma). I don't like the reason to townread him here, there are scum players who make it a point to be difficult to work with in order to prey on insecurity and Saudade feels like one of them. There's only a little further on the spectrum than last game. I don't like Implosion's townreading it, it's pretty one-dimensional and generalized. Where he falls on the spectrum probably varies depending on alignment but this is in general reeks of what I thought was also wrong with his flavor read (Seems to be a focus on just picking a possible motivation then selling it rather than the reverse).

From your perspective though, I feel like this is a statement on possible motivation with little focus on the likelihood of each, and I don't like it.

Pretty sure I've explained elsewhere why exactly I think the scum motivation is more likely. I guess I haven't really in depth but basically just a lot of what he's done around it reads like plain bullshit. The claim about wanting to bait a hammer, the half-assed "oh i'm not sure if i remember what my role pm was maybe it was vt". And the admitting that he's really scummy and claiming he's willing to eat a lynch for it. All of that is just gross.

It's gross, but none of this is really likely to get him to dodge the lynch. It's begging to be lynched and validated. Your statement earlier emphasized that his scum motivation would be to emulate his townplay, which is something you already described as intentionally arbitrary. This seems really circular in a way that doesn't click with me: "He's scum because he's doing dumb bullshit" "His scum motivation for doing dumb bullshit is because as town he does dumb bullshit". Maybe there's something I'm missing here.

I also really don't like #416. It's giving reasons for MoI being plausibly town but there's a pervasive fear of explicitly saying so that I don't think is town behavior. It really reeks of not wanting to make an enemy out of MoI without having to face "but you townread him earlier" later down the line. I'd understand not wanting to commit early to a scumread but the hesitance to give a townread here is just strange considering the readiness he's given them out elsewhere (Saudade, Stefan). Like #417 is clearing nearly everyone.

VOTE: Implosion

MoI can fuck off with the "Oh you haven't given reads" bullshit, though. I'd given plenty-a townread on Gamma, I didn't like Implosion's read on Flavor, a scumread on CoA later retracted, and a scumlean on Cheet. The point of posting after I realized the GL vs. GE mistake was to give proof of work, and that's important as town (See: My desire to see the cogs turning for CoA). I put in like 3 hours to read the game as a whole the previous day and another hour and a half sitting there munching on CoA's ISO. You're lucky I replaced in at all, so calm the fuck down if you're town.

[implosion]

Where he falls on the spectrum probably varies depending on alignment but this is in general reeks of what I thought was also wrong with his flavor read (Seems to be a focus on just picking a possible motivation then selling it rather than the reverse).

You are clearly very unfamiliar with my towngame. Which is odd given that I did this quite a lot in the one game you've played with me, where I was town. I don't "just pick a motivation"; it's never arbitrary.

I also really don't like #416. It's giving reasons for MoI being plausibly town but there's a pervasive fear of explicitly saying so that I don't think is town behavior.

??????

I am extremely explicit about the fact that this is all null to me. I really don't want to make an enemy out of MoI, because the last time we played together he tunneled me and I tunneled him back and we were both town. And I would really like to avoid that if he is town because it's the only time I've been mislynched in a damn long time. This is one of the big reasons why I can't read his push on me easily. Like I said, he's done it before. And that's really frustrating.

I have no idea what in what I said you think I should be townreading Magna for. He's done a lot of shit that he's done before as town, and nothing that I don't think he can fake as scum (and nothing that I think he's especially unlikely to fake as scum). Saying that I should be townreading him is another horrible misrep of what I've been saying.

How much do you remember of my meta from the game we played a while ago?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I really don't want to make an enemy out of MoI, because the last time we played together he tunneled me and I tunneled him back and we were both town.

Link this game please.

[Prism]

My problem with Cheet is the implicit assumption I was scum from the start with no real basis.

It was more meant to be a line of inquiry and a push/challenge. I don't expect every vote from someone to have amazing reasoning with cited posts, but if you're going to be voting for someone who has no votes on them when people are getting close to lynching I would expect either:
i) You asking for more time to catch up.
ii) You trying to convince people if you think you're onto something.

Reading my post in a vacuum I still don't think there's any real basis for this. My first real post of the game which gave a broad overview on multiple players and multiple conversations is no indicator that ii) isn't to come or that I didn't want to do this. The double standard here in regards to his own play here is again pretty striking.

Upon revealing that my intent was a mix of wanting to see the cogs turning underneath Cult's posts and getting others to doubt their townreads there, the conversation more shifted towards "Oh, well it's just a worthless placeholder then". I have a really hard time buying that I am the only player who utilizes votes as more than a tool for a lynch.

Shit like "I look forward to reading your stance on MoI/Imp" is more focused on keeping me in the rails and under control than it is earnestly trying to see what I come up with.

[implosion]

I really don't want to make an enemy out of MoI, because the last time we played together he tunneled me and I tunneled him back and we were both town.

Link this game please.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=66137

[Hiraki]

525 was great. 528 is terrible. Pick a side.

[implosion]

And I just skimmed a piece of that game and we actually had VERY LITERALLY the exact same argument as one of the ones here

[Prism]

You are clearly very unfamiliar with my towngame. Which is odd given that I did this quite a lot in the one game you've played with me, where I was town. I don't "just pick a motivation"; it's never arbitrary.

I'm not asserting that you're town, and I am asserting that the pick of a motivation seems arbitrary. I don't see how these two are inconsistent.

I am extremely explicit about the fact that this is all null to me. I really don't want to make an enemy out of MoI, because the last time we played together he tunneled me and I tunneled him back and we were both town. And I would really like to avoid that if he is town because it's the only time I've been mislynched in a damn long time. This is one of the big reasons why I can't read his push on me easily. Like I said, he's done it before. And that's really frustrating.

I have no idea what in what I said you think I should be townreading Magna for. He's done a lot of shit that he's done before as town, and nothing that I don't think he can fake as scum (and nothing that I think he's especially unlikely to fake as scum). Saying that I should be townreading him is another horrible misrep of what I've been saying.

I'm aware that it was explicitly null; that's my entire problem with it. You're citing a lot of behaviors he's doing that aren't ideal but you've seen from a town Magna. You aren't sure that it's a tell but the care with which you're treating Magna vs. the willingness to pass out townreads elsewhere is incredibly odd. I don't see any reason for you to fear him so much you see a game that reminds you of town Magna and still just go "he's null"

How much do you remember of my meta from the game we played a while ago?

Few specifics, but I remember thinking that you were very competent. My entire strategy that game was built around toeing the competency line to avoid a scumread from you while building the foundation to implode when you were gone. Your choices there seemed more foundationally sound than they do here, but admittedly I haven't yet looked back at the game.

[CultOfAthena]

Catching up.

[Hoopla]

BTW the above vote count should be a pretty good signal that Flavor is likely Town not scum. If you want a policy lynch go for it but odds that is a scum lynch at the same time are slim.

Thinking about it, I guess I do kinda agree with the logic that Flavor's wagon is more likely to stall if he's town, with a handful of vanity wagons, no real competition, yet also no real motivation to get the lynch through despite my pleading. Looks like scum were getting complacent, assuming it would go through eventually and there was no reason to dirty their hands over this one.

I'm fine with implosion's contributions so far, his vote on Flavor was 5th on the wagon and actually gave the wagon a chance of being lynched. If Flavor is town, implosion is putting himself on a heavily scrutinised area of the wagon -- the area of the wagon where it has genuine moment and threat of lynch. Why put yourself in the limelight tomorrow on a mislynch wagon when there are no threatening counterwagons? The vanity vote-parkers are more likely where the scum are.

I'd probably vote Erika at this point, but I'll wait for the replacement.

VOTE: CultofAthena

Also fine with lynching Hiraki, Prism, Stefan, Erika, though probably not Cheetory since a lot of his reads are lining up with how I'm viewing the game, and he was very willing to help out ol' Hoopla with a Flavor vote when I put out the request. Makes me think he'll be easy to boss around later, which is good for me, both from a game PoV and a fun PoV.

[Hiraki]

Thinking about it, I guess I do kinda agree with the logic that Flavor's wagon is more likely to stall if he's town, with a handful of vanity wagons, no real competition, yet also no real motivation to get the lynch through despite my pleading. Looks like scum were getting complacent, assuming it would go through eventually and there was no reason to dirty their hands over this one.

I have a problem with how widespread this is being used and its effectiveness now-a-days. But that's a better discussion for Mafia discussion.

Why think that Implosion didn't know what he was doing? The guy who's making walls just forgot that he was voting where he was? Your point on Implosion really doesn't sit well with me. It gives him credit for bad scumplay when he's a good player. Too complicated to make me feel good.

[Cheetory6]

My problem with Cheet is the implicit assumption I was scum from the start with no real basis.

I've walked through my reasoning pretty clearly. This frankly looks like you're digging your heels in just to justify your read on me more than anything. Avoiding picking at the specific reasoning I've given to just continue abstractly attacking my stances just feels icky and like you're intentionally just trying to justify your stance and make it seem like you have reason to scumlean me when it's just hot air.

The double standard here in regards to his own play here is again pretty striking.

Please, elaborate. Because if it's just "OH HIS OPENING WASN'T SUBSTANTIVE EITHER" then I'm going to probably grill you over an open fire.
(:

I have a really hard time buying that I am the only player who utilizes votes as more than a tool for a lynch.

I feel like you have to really not read what I'm saying to imply that I'm knocking a placeholder/what I'm perceiving as a placeholder vote. It's that we were L-1 on Flavor and you were literally sitting on a vanity wagon with no posts saying something along the lines of "can we please not lynch while I'm getting caught up?"
I literally said this MULTIPLE times in the post.
So.
Feel free to keep pushing this "wow cheet hates placeholder votes" angle because it's really going to make it easy for me to piledrive a wagon on you.

Shit like "I look forward to reading your stance on MoI/Imp" is more focused on keeping me in the rails and under control than it is earnestly trying to see what I come up with.

You really look at me saying that and think "this guy is trying to force me into not parsing other things" instead of "this guy is forcing me to actually follow through with what I'm committing to"???????

[Hiraki]

Just to really push Cheet's last point, I don't understand how Cheetory dictates your thoughts. It's really weird to say and really makes the good content in 525 feel like it's not fabricated.

[Hiraki]

I had the same ping with a prior post but I'll discuss that later.

[Cheetory6]

Just to really push Cheet's last point, I don't understand how Cheetory dictates your thoughts. It's really weird to say and really makes the good content in 525 feel like it's not fabricated.

I'm honestly not sure what you're saying here tbh.
Can you unpack this a little more?
Are you saying that Prism seems fabricated here or that I seem fabricated?

[Hiraki]

Prism. It feels like his reply is saying that your wants are weighing him down. Almost like unless he complies with your wants, he's being lynched. That's the feel I get from it.

[Hiraki]

Could be a personality thing after multiple re-reads but you're probably better at figuring that out.

[Prism]

I've walked through my reasoning pretty clearly. This frankly looks like you're digging your heels in just to justify your read on me more than anything.

Honestly wouldn't be the first time.

Avoiding picking at the specific reasoning I've given to just continue abstractly attacking my stances just feels icky and like you're intentionally just trying to justify your stance and make it seem like you have reason to scumlean me when it's just hot air.

I definitely have looked at the specific reasoning, and you snipped a fair bit of it from the post. My issue is this, clearly stated: I felt like your read is coming from the

assumption

that I'm scum rather than a genuine discovery process. The pieces you're highlighting now that are wrong with my vote were a bit different in focus than what you're saying now.

Please, elaborate. Because if it's just "OH HIS OPENING WASN'T SUBSTANTIVE EITHER" then I'm going to probably grill you over an open fire.

Your post grilled me for having nothing

immediately on the attack

on CoA, with the justification that you'd expect me to do so. None of your posts until I joined in did this. In which case-sure, I like to be done medium well.

Urgency claim as the focus makes this less valid (in that there's a different context between your posts pre and post my joining).

I have a really hard time buying that I am the only player who utilizes votes as more than a tool for a lynch.

I feel like you have to really not read what I'm saying to imply that I'm knocking a placeholder/what I'm perceiving as a placeholder vote. It's that we were L-1 on Flavor and you were literally sitting on a vanity wagon with no posts saying something along the lines of "can we please not lynch while I'm getting caught up?"
I literally said this MULTIPLE times in the post.
So.
Feel free to keep pushing this "wow cheet hates placeholder votes" angle because it's really going to make it easy for me to piledrive a wagon on you.

Why the hell would I be worried about a lynch then? It was L-2, I wasn't voting Flavor and was openly questioning the wagon, and no one else had declared intent to vote Flavor.

Shit like "I look forward to reading your stance on MoI/Imp" is more focused on keeping me in the rails and under control than it is earnestly trying to see what I come up with.

You really look at me saying that and think "this guy is trying to force me into not parsing other things" instead of "this guy is forcing me to actually follow through with what I'm committing to"???????

I was already going to do that. The post there isn't keeping me accountable, it's saying

"Oh yes, I'll hold you to it

, I'm watching you closely" rather than just waiting to see what I come up with. I guess I can see intent here to needle scum and make them uncomfortable.

[Hoopla]

I have a problem with how widespread this is being used and its effectiveness now-a-days. But that's a better discussion for Mafia discussion.

Why think that Implosion didn't know what he was doing? The guy who's making walls just forgot that he was voting where he was? Your point on Implosion really doesn't sit well with me. It gives him credit for bad scumplay when he's a good player. Too complicated to make me feel good.

I mean, it isn't slamdunk crystalline logick that flies him on a one-way ticket straight to LYLO, but it's good enough to give him a pass today when we're thinking about the probable composition of scum on Flavor's wagon (assuming he's now town). Sidenote: I think this tell is probably stronger as a general scum composition thing as opposed to specifically clearing individuals.

But on implosion; whenever I read through the debates he's been having with people, he seems to have a type of personality and way of expressing his thoughts that really resonates with me, and though this isn't alignment-indicative on it's own, it reminds me of what happens to me when I end up engaging in debates with certain players on D1 -- things I think and say that seem perfectly ordinary to say or do get easily misinterpreted, because they just don't view the world through the same lens I do. His convos with Magna being the key reference point here. He's just ~*

misunderstood

*~ maaaaan.

Actually, can someone give me a summary of the implosion case. Is there one I've missed?

[Prism]

Not even I guess, that's pretty clearly the intent.

Big issue for me is that your level of scumreading me for the CoA vote wasn't justified, and seemed to shift to a broader vanity vote concern rather than the more narrow, "Where's your case to lynch?" Urgency concern/thinking I wanted Flavor to go through without much comment kind of ties those together.

Probably not going to let up on me but oh well, light the flames and let's have a cookout.

[Gamma Emerald]

My problem with Cheet is the implicit assumption I was scum from the start with no real basis.

It was more meant to be a line of inquiry and a push/challenge. I don't expect every vote from someone to have amazing reasoning with cited posts, but if you're going to be voting for someone who has no votes on them when people are getting close to lynching I would expect either:
i) You asking for more time to catch up.
ii) You trying to convince people if you think you're onto something.

Reading my post in a vacuum I still don't think there's any real basis for this. My first real post of the game which gave a broad overview on multiple players and multiple conversations is no indicator that ii) isn't to come or that I didn't want to do this. The double standard here in regards to his own play here is again pretty striking.

Upon revealing that my intent was a mix of wanting to see the cogs turning underneath Cult's posts and getting others to doubt their townreads there, the conversation more shifted towards "Oh, well it's just a worthless placeholder then". I have a really hard time buying that I am the only player who utilizes votes as more than a tool for a lynch.

Shit like "I look forward to reading your stance on MoI/Imp" is more focused on keeping me in the rails and under control than it is earnestly trying to see what I come up with.

This post akes me think Prism is town, it's showing a lot of the sam focus I saw in his towngame I had with him

[Hoopla]

Not even I guess, that's pretty clearly the intent.

Big issue for me is that your level of scumreading me for the CoA vote wasn't justified, and seemed to shift to a broader vanity vote concern rather than the more narrow, "Where's your case to lynch?" Urgency concern/thinking I wanted Flavor to go through without much comment kind of ties those together.

Probably not going to let up on me but oh well, light the flames and let's have a cookout.

My level is scumreading you is you're in a pool of half a dozen player's I'd be OK lynching. This seems like an overzealous defence to my meagre scumread on you, if we can even call it that. If anything, my call out of you (amongst other people) was a call to the action to get you to get the game moving.

[Prism]

That wasn't a response to you, it was to Cheet.

[Prism]

Like, I don't get how you could ever think that was directed at you unless you weren't reading me/Cheet at all.

[Hoopla]

Like, I don't get how you could ever think that was directed at you unless you weren't reading me/Cheet at all.

Not gonna lie, certain back-and-forths... my eyes pretty much just glaze over.