Mini Normal 2102: Mafia à la Mode! (Game Complete)
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Ugh, apologies, I just got my new internet access. Not that it helps, because this site is so godawful slow it's hardly playable. Have literally opened all pages in tabs, work without quotes and will just try to cover as much as I can until I ragequit.
I feel a bit iffy about tris on the first two pages, I have trouble with understanding the sequence of her reads/posts. On one hand she has no problem with joining Vex on Salad for his vote switching (temporarily) but once RCE comes around and calls Vex scum she calls RCE town. It feels off, but I don't know how to describe it. Like in comparision I get Mizzy who had the same observation about Vex like RCE and started voting Vex, while tris just says RCE is town without implying any reason and moves on with voting BEF as she seemingly didn't share the suspicion on Vex? What was the thought process here?
I don't like BEF's opening either for similar reasons. His opening felt a bit lazy with leaning town on RCE without participating in anything that happened so far, it looks a bit like trying to fit in with agreeing on the current consensus townlean. Him just backing off his random vote when Mizzy asked him about it looked weird. I don't know why he even bothered?
For the record it's not that I disagree about a townlean on RCE. I have the same tendency about him, but I felt that interaction with Vex was too early for that as Vex could as well just have been an easy target with his try-hard approach to gain some early towncred. I think RCE's handling of his Morality scumread is more town indicative here.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Regarding Morality I hate his 1-shot bp Miller claim going by the implications of it and my intuitive reaction to that is to lynch that asap. I can see two motivations with these though, considering who made this claim it's most likely fake anyway, so I don't think this is that much alignment indicative.
@RCE:
How was he trying to dictate the gamestate with his tris/Mizzy association?
His defensive behaviour after RCE started scumreading him was more surprising and looks more shady, however I also wouldn't see it coming from FL.
@Morality:
Why do you think there is at least one scum on your wagon? Why wouldn't scum stay away from pushing you early as you are according to yourself (at least FL!self lol) so hard to lynch on D1?-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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I don't like benhalkum either. His first post comes in with an excusing tone that he is not lurking and then later he unvotes his random vote and leans on a Morality vote as he finds his behaviour scummy. So why doesn't he vote Morality then? It's not that he is asking Morality any questions either, so...? Gives me a bad impression so far.
VOTE: benhalkum-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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It's a bit weird, but guess I have to come around getting a grasp on this persona then.In post 157, RCEnigma wrote: Firstly don't read Morality the same way you would read FL, he's being honest there. They aren't technically the same player.
That said it wasn't the Tris/Mizzy association itself, it's that he threw that in as a hard read to push that bef is town.
Just throwing it out like that when most slots are unsure is an intentional plant. It gets people pairing those two whenever they start to form their own reads, all he needs is for someone to echo it for him.
There is an element of manipulation (including emotional) in order to get ahead. So I agree his response and claim is a front and as town he absolutely would not put town at a disadvantage like that.
The only thing he's trying to accomplish with the claim is to avoid a Lynch today.
Alright I think I get your thought here, the fact that he wasn't pushing this narrative since his opening anymore was the point that bothered me as I kind of thought he would try to establish that more forceful in the room as it wasn't really picked on by anyone besides maybe Mizzy. But that might be because I was assuming the FL mindset here.
I agree with the last point but at the same time that's what makes me wonder. Neither does such a executed claim might ensure survival nor does it force a counterclaim and it would buy one day at most anyway. It looks so like suboptimal play unless that's what he has been banking on, but by my limited experience that's in any way rather the highway into the dead thread. However I don't see why town!Morality would do this either.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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For me it was your wording that you emphasized it with calling his behaviour very very scummy so I felt your scumread was already strong enough. Of course you backed that now up with adding reasons from his recent posts though. I didn't had the impression you were really waiting for a reaction there as what you pointed out to no one particular was basically already covered by DDL earlier.In post 161, benhalkum wrote: Didn't need to vote yet as I wanted him to respond to me or others to weigh in before I voted. I don't like to vote once random is over unless I truly feel they are bad news.
With that being said though, VOTE: Mortality.
1) The false claim so early (As he claimed again, proving it to be false, proves he can't be trusted)
What were you thinking about his first claim to begin with? It looked nonsensical to me to begin with so I assumed it was most likely false anyway. Were you buying it or didn't comment on it earlier because you didn't really checked the thread yet when you checked in for the first time?-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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So you are admitting that it wasn't genuine. Yeah, I remember scum!you pretty well, which is why I was assuming it wasn't genuine to begin with as you acted way more different when getting annoyed during a "1v1" with Vork and you striked my as kind of different type that wouldn't go that fast into afk/toxic route. Which is also the point why I have a problem with seeing the town motivation behind that besides maybe fishing for reactions, but I feel by context that this isn't the right moment for it.In post 162, Morality wrote: @Skellen - You said it doesn’t seem real? My strongest ability as scum is to come off as incredibly natural. You’ve witnessed ScumMe this year even.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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I am not really sure about Morality yet. Like I can definitely see RCE's points and they seem to look plausible and I am inclined to think that he might be scum here after all, but I think the thing that bothers me the most here is that this Morality business overshadows the whole thread and it feels like most are just skating by and I don't know yet what to make out of it. To be fair there was the issue with the site in between.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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In post 291, BrightEyedFish wrote: Morality is the 2nd lynch option today because it to me a morality's play is NAI because it just is and lynching there wouldn't give us any info, regardless of alignment.
This is what I don't really understand about you. You always bring Morality up as the alternative to tris and asks her in #125 what would make her more town than Morality. And now you say Morality's play so far was nai and it would be a lynch with no useful information (disagree, he is the most active player here and is dominating the thread in either way, there are enough associations imo). So aren't you scumreading Morality to begin with? Then why is no one else the Plan B? Or are you simply seeing him as compromise lynch because he is the wagon with the most votes atm?In post 292, BrightEyedFish wrote:By 2nd lynch option, I mean more like a Plan B if we can't get another wagon going. So I have no interest in lynching there.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Why is that concerning?In post 177, skitter30 wrote:i don't townread skellen's entrance, which is mildly concerning
Also why is bob scummy?-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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What makes bob's rvs post different from ben's rvs post which came even later than bob's post?In post 299, skitter30 wrote: Bob made an rvs post when there was already things to enagage with in-thread.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Hm, I don't necessarily agree although in case of town!Morality I could at least see that scenario.In post 300, BrightEyedFish wrote: That's it basically.
If Morality flips town you can't SR others on the wagon because of his wild play today.
If he flips scum then hooray we get a dead scum on D1 but it won't help us come D2, imo.
So I get it right by that that Morality is just compromise?-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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UNVOTE: ben
I feel less sure about ben after #309, mostly for his conviction on his Morality scumread. Although I start to wonder if ben is the type to tunnel as he hasn't given any other reads. I can probably get behind skitter's line of thinking he might be town if Morality is. I am not sure about it though as a scummy town!Morality would be a pretty vulnerable target to get away with such attitude. I had the feeling in case of scum!Morality this might be a bus, but if I recall correctly Morality hates getting bussed, so I don't think this is necessarily the case here. Doesn't mean that I think ben is town, I would like to hear more from him outside of his Morality case.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Why was that a good post? Him settling at that early point of the game to these two lynch options looks pretty final in a weird way (and he isn't even interested in lynching the 2nd option according to himself).In post 318, Vex Vience wrote:
good post for the point of the game we're in.In post 125, BrightEyedFish wrote:
But everyone would say that.In post 124, tris wrote:the problem with that is that i'm town
What makes you more town than Morality. Because from where I'm at the lynch is looking to be between the 2 of you today.
Me and skitter were talking about the rvs posts of both though, not what followed later. While bob indeed just disappeared for a while it's not like ben did much more than bob, a tmost only justifying his random vote to tris in #70 which I would rather attach to the rvs post in #68. ben only tried to get engaged more later when his attention shifted to Morality.In post 318, Vex Vience wrote:
imo because ben tried to engage with a few other things, while bob just ceased to exist.In post 303, Skellen wrote: What makes bob's rvs post different from ben's rvs post which came even later than bob's post?
Also can you explain why you think in #318 that skitter is town, although you can't read her? I didn't really got the impression you were leaning town on her while reading your catchup, also while I can see why you are scumreading Morality and why you are considering him as lynch option I wonder how that fits with your theory in the very same post that skitter/Morality is either TvT or SvS but never TvS yet TvS is literally the conclusion of your catchup? To be fair you said it was a tinfoil hat theory, but it seemed to me that you were inclined to believe in that.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Can you explain your progression on this? Like DDL was already doing this recruiting for the Morality wagon thing when you were around and suspecting Morality to be a scum Jailkeeper. Even although I am aware of the out due to site performance issues.In post 323, bob3141 wrote:
You ask BEF to join you in voting for mory but i cant see anywhere in your iso were you have commented on morality at all. You ask other to join your vote yet you havent posted any reason why you are voting for himIn post 115, DrDolittle wrote:BEF join me on morality
Looks to me like your scum just sheeping the latest push of other players
VOTE: DrD
If DDL is a scum sheep what does it mean for your read on Morality? As I said last time you were around you were inclined to think he was scum. What has changed our opinion on him?-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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How so? Is he always scummy?In post 350, DrDolittle wrote:hmm bef is a bit scummier than usual
Not that I disagree, that what tris has pointed out in #331 is exactly what is bothering me about him the whole time.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Why do you think that skitter and tris are town?In post 375, Saladman27 wrote:My quick, sketchy and shitty reads as of now, without reading isos.
Town: RCE, skitter, tris
null: everyone not mentioned
scumlean: none
How come you have no scumlean? Ever since you caught flak for your vote switching in rvs you stayed away from most stuff happening in the thread and avoided the whole Morality business and focussed instead only on DDL. Literally half of your ISO is about DDL who you are voting for and he isn't even a scumlean?-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Partner on partner interaction you say? Very interesting...[/quote]In post 388, RCEnigma wrote: Why do you think that skitter and tris are town?
How come you have no scumlean? Ever since you caught flak for your vote switching in rvs you stayed away from most stuff happening in the thread and avoided the whole Morality business and focussed instead only on DDL. Literally half of your ISO is about DDL who you are voting for and he isn't even a scumlean?
Now directly (DDL) or indirectly (Morality)?
DDL isn't giving me any major scum/town pings and if it was supposed to be distancing it was done poorly or at least it was meaningless. Also I think their one direct interaction which was DDL's sarcastic #143 doesn't look like SvS to me. Admittedly tonal interpretations are debatable though.
Regarding Morality I thought it might have been possible as Saladman might have wanted to avoid direct associations with Morality, particularly because his only posts about Morality were a fluff post about Millers and when he questioned DDL about his Morality vote. Although the latter sounded at least genuine to me and tbh Saladman doesn't feel scummy (or townie) to me, it's just that his reads look weird in context of his actions.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Then again reading Saladman's exchange with RCE during posts #404-#414 I think I start to see where skitter's townread on him might possibly come from (at least I assume part of it comes from experience in other games if I get it right). I can see it as a townie who doesn't have any faith in his own reads, at least it doesn't look like panicked scum with moving his votes that arbitrarily when confronted by RCE with pointing out the flaws in his reasoning. Maybe a careful townlean at most as I hate it to townread people for such reasons.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Well, originally I was more triggered by Vex who thought you made a good post on which I was disagreeing with, so you aren't originally supposed to respond to anything here. Nonetheless I stand by it that your early finality throws me off as I don't see how you can come from the mindset "either tris lynch or compromise on Morality" when not even half of D1 has passed. In comparision it took me until now to come down a decent lynchpool, I simply don't understand how you could settle that early on your lynch targets as if nothing could influence that anymore.In post 429, BrightEyedFish wrote:
Again, I don't see what I am supposed to respond to here. The formatting is a little strange in the quote/spoiler.In post 384, Skellen wrote:
How so? Is he always scummy?In post 350, DrDolittle wrote:hmm bef is a bit scummier than usual
Not that I disagree, that what tris has pointed out in #331 is exactly what is bothering me about him the whole time.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Something similar like this is basically what is my problem with Morality/Pretentious and FL's other 73 personalities. Or different: What is bothering me about the gamestate the whole time.In post 442, Mizzytastic wrote: That said it feels to me that since Morality stopped posting so much the game has really slowed down, and the wagons feel quite slow in general. Half way through the day is when I feel like wagons should be converging to give time for a claim and potential shift without scrabbling at deadline. This makes me feel like the scum equity on the wagons that people are pushing but aren't the busiest is higher, cos they are struggling to take off. Not sure about the Morality wagon though. Whatever his alignment he's definitely doing stuff traditionally considered anti-town and town!Morality is obvious mislynch bait in this situation, but while slow wagons increases scum equity for me slow thread activity increases the town equity of the leading wagon for me - scum are happy to let it go through even if they don't wanna stick their neck out.
This wagon exists basically since the beginning and there was never a serious attempt of a counterwagon (until now with DDl maybe) and even Morality himself never seriously pushed anyone, just some votes here and there in different directions like "this is/could be scum" without much substance while he is mostly defending himself or plays very self-centered. I think someone else said Morality wasn't really sorting anyone, although I think as Morality he did more through interactions in a way (if I remember it correctly, need to reread it later). He is now doing it more differently as Pretentious of course. But yeah, that's what is throwing me off here and gave me strong scum vibes (particularly the self-centered play), but ultimately he isn't really trying to push the focus away from himself nor has there been any noteworthy effort to direct the lynch elsewhere outside of all this as you more or less pointed already out. Considering the gamestate is/was a bit apathetic imo I would have thought that scum!Morality/Pretentious would take the chance to take control of the gamestate, but that didn't really happened either.
Otherwise there is this awful Jailkeeper claim. Normally I am inclined to take bob's approach here and resolve that claim later, but I am not even really believing that claim to begin with as the whole claim wasn't well executed and if it's actually true it would disgust me slightly. As bob said his play doesn't really match his play and even the consequences for his role are more harmful for town. And the bp claim explanation is pretty... meh. But also here I have trouble seeing what the scum motivation of the claim is besides pure survivalism like RCE said. The timing is so odd and ultimately the claim is pointless too, it has almost no effect besides emphasizing the scumreads on him. I had for a moment the wild theory that Morality might have tried to move the focus away from Vex who was kind of under fire at the beginning with the bp Miller claim, but I ditched it considering there would have been dozen of better options instead of playing himself into a deadend.
I need to reread everything regarding Morality/Pretentious but I feel the more I think about it the more I run circles around him without knowing what the fuck the correct answer even is here, but I kind of think if he is scum here than his claim would have a concrete purpose, which I am not seeing here though.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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The thing that pinged me about this post is rather that before actually catching up he still went back to respond to a post to defend/justify himself as first priority. I am not feeling the comradery here though?In post 472, bob3141 wrote:In post 311, Vex Vience wrote:im quickly skimming the thread and will most likely work on my catchup during lunch/class but i did see this:
1) push on salad was just because i tried metaing everyone before the game started, gave up when i got to tris and saw like 10+ games id need to read over and decided to do homework instead. salad from what i saw was a weaker player and would probably alignment spew from an early push.In post 298, skitter30 wrote:- his opening push on salad was shallow and bad
- he likes playing town and tends to avoid posting as scum. Like town!him enjoys catching up and i think would have done it last night, over complaining over how many pages were produced. Scum!him feels catching up is a chore, and this is the attitude i see in 278
Pedit: @luv, regarding vex
2a) under vex, yes i prefer town over scum. as korina, i prefer scum over town. its a semantics argument on why and ill explain it post-game if anyones interested.
2b) the argument for activity for vex is kinda true, kinda not. i know i share some traits between korina and vex which i cant really help, (namely high posting), however, recently (newbie 1949, the game you modded), you saw that i was posting a lot as scum, esp in the scum pt.
2c) i do enjoy catching up, however, like 20+ pages over the span of 48hrs when i cant read any of it due to site lag, much less login to vex to begin with just demotivates me from trying. also, with lag and the fact that my fall break is today, and i have a couple of papers due, i really didnt wanna bother with catching up right then. im happy to try to do it later today because im on break and i got nothing due tho
I dont know why but there is just something about this post. Feels a bit comradery.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Why even make this post?In post 500, Saladman27 wrote:People who think there’s even a little bit of thought behind my posts are scum...-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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I am probably down to Vex, bef and Pretentious for today's lynch, also in that order. But I don't know about Pretentious, maybe he is out of it, myabe he stays. Blergh.
Not sure about DDL. I can see the points that Mizzy brought up and I agree with skitter that the wording in #425 looks strange for coming from a town mindset. But it was also my impression that posts of this kind could be normal coming from him going by his personality.
I like RCE and Mizzy for town. Was considering to lean town on tris too, but I remember that a few days ago something wording related threw me off her again which I hadn't looked into yet. I kind of had/have a subjective gut townlean on skitter, but I don't really feel dedicated to it yet as I am not feeling it yet outside of that gut feeling.
@RCE:
My impression aside that I don't really feel he is your pocket, what exactly does this bef pocket thing mean for your read on him?-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Yeah, in the end it's probably just that. I am partly biased with my past experiences with scum!him where there was a clear purpose in his fakeclaim, where it just took a bit more to figure the whole picture out.In post 400, skitter30 wrote:Bob might be scum-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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I need to reread everything from A50 tomorrow when I am not half asleep.
Regarding #607 I am unsure what to think of it. Like I get the first line of thought that one of the wagons could be scum and rest town. Beyond that it becomes difficult imo as Pret more or less pointed out. I don't really understand on what basis that assumption is based on? Why that specific votecount/gamestate? Like I think there isn't that much information yet to construct such constellations already.
Also A50, why are you so confident on your townread on bef? Going by your catchup you went as far to lock him as town for pursuing his tris scumread. Why is that so strongly town indicative for him?-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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So you changed your opinion about bob going by #532 as he was originally your 2nd after Pret? I get your case on A50 so that he is now there, but what changed about bob as you aren't mentioning him in this post anymore?In post 641, DrDolittle wrote:i like morality for scum i dislike tris for scum
i present my case on a50:
frankly i dont think your posting is out of your scumrange, and your pred. looks bad.man i really dislike the 1/3 by a50. it's standard setting ml line, and also gives us the illusion of choice
I don't know why you felt to emphasize on your tris read though.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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In post 676, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:very easy for me to get disengaged as town.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Ok, after rereading A50's entrance I am null on him, but I don't want to lynch his slot for today at least. I am kind of curious how his reads will develope from here on. I can't however shake off the feeling he is setting up some kind of certain gamestate for later with his three wagons constellation, but flips and night results will tell I guess.
I think I am coming around with leaning town on skitter beyond my subjective townlean from the beginning, mostly because of her thoughts and conclusions from her interactions with Pret yesterday as most of them mirror my thoughts exactly. And I don't feel like there is a hidden agenda behind her handling of Pret.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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My gut instinct tell me to lynch Pret, my head says no though.
I have difficulties to see why he would have acted in some situations as scum as he did or considering how the gamestate was at some points, but then again I don't see why he would as town either. It's frustrating. While he creates a lot of content I feel he stirs up a lot of stuff that is ultimately pretty coming down with always pointing out that badly why he is town, it's probably just too much for me.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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I think ben might be back in my lynchpool though. It's just his whole D1 so far despite his strong conviction in his Pret scumread. Or I am not good at understanding these early tunneler mindsets that mostly ignore everything else. Then again the only people who are there are... Pret and bef. I don't even know why bef is there anyway.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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I am not getting your thought process here. First it was that tris was your only real scumread and Morality as compromise, despite being null/nai. Then you moved to Morality/Pret without any explanation why you left tris. Then you leave Morality again because you liked Pret more. So were you townreading Pret by then?In post 556, BrightEyedFish wrote: Including your slot, I am null on everyone sitting on the DDL wagon. I'd suggest we pick someone on the Pret wagon and lynch there.
RCEnigma,benhalkum, Saladman27,DrDoolittle
VOTE: benhalkum
I can get why you didn't move back to tris as skitter was aksing for suggestions for lynch options because EoD and there were no one else on tris. Although I still wonder what happened to your tris read? Especially because ben also only had one vote.
Finally to come back to the quote, are you genuinely scumreading both ben and Saladman or are they also null as everyone else was before? Because if so and in case if Pret is not town to you, why are you looking for scum on a wagon that is null or you have been null for the most time and not on the wagon which is on one of your townreads? (DDL)-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Look, it's not that I am ignorant to your townread on him and I appreciate your reasoning in #783, but I haven't played with him before and I am not really seeing it here. Or differently: It's exactly his behaviour after leaving the Pret wagon that doesn't make sense for me to come from town, if my interpretation of his assumed reads is right. So I want him to take a clear stance what his Pret read is rn as I don't see why you would look as town for scum on a null wagon where half of the wagon composition consist out of your townreads without having expressed any scumreads on the other two there while you don't look at all at those who are wagoning your townread.In post 780, Almost50 wrote: FFS! Pick just about anyone else to lynch, Skellen. I only have you and BEF as strong town reads so far, and of a pool of 12 players you only chose BEF to vote???? I mean, I'd have understood if you voted me over BEF.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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That was all that it took to change your mind? You trust the word of your scumread (if he still is) that easily?
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Eh, crap. Looks like I messed the syntax up.In post 805, Almost50 wrote:
And what is his scum motive for doing so? Unless you believe Pretentious to be scum in which case you should have voted Pretentious (at least he does have a wagon on him).In post 795, Skellen wrote:It's exactly his behaviour after leaving the Pret wagon that doesn't make sense for me to come from town
It isn't really about the part you quoted that he left the wagon. Like I am cool with it if he leaves Pret because he thinks he is town or still null and someone else is scummier or whatever, that's not the big deal to me. It's right after that how he approaches to lynch on either of the two wagons as I assume one of your first initial reactions as town is to look on those who are trying to lynch your townreads, which he seems to dismiss here with saying they are all null while it's not clear what his read on Pret is and he never said anything about ben or Saladman before nor in his post. What his scum motivation could be here depends on different things, which is imo a bit too speculative, personally I am more interested in figuring out what kind of mindset he has here.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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This is actually exactly how I felt about a potential bob wagon as I thought this was just going for a low info lynch away from the two competing wagons (Pret, DDL), which made me wonder if one of these actually is scum. However that would assume that bob is town and atm he is a total wildcard to me. The nullest of all. It pinged me a bit that the last time he showed up it was only to react to tris' vote on him without commenting on anything else that is happening, so DDL has kind of a point that he isn't doing much outside his DDl case on which he is sitting for most of the day. So I am not that sure about that anymore. I plan to reread the game before deadline and need to focus on bob while doing that.In post 839, RCEnigma wrote: I'll say I believe the attempt to get a bob wagon going is scum indicative.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Can't say I am that satisfied with bef's response, but I think there is no point in pursuing this if I go by his reads, so I will leave it till I know more.
VOTE: Pretentious
While I townread skitter for her interactions with him I can't shake off the suspicion that he is slightly manipulative in that conversation, like his focus in trying to win skitter over who is also the most charismatic person on his wagon (he couldn't probably make RCE move anyway). That and these multiple emphases that he is town, it rubs me the wrong way like hewantsto establish this mindset casually.
Then again his oberservation on A50 is quite townie imo. Ugh, that guy drives me nuts.
I will also pay attention on tris while rereading today, I think that's someone I could compromise onto. Her voting behaviour comes off as pretty arbitrarily, although it only pinged strongly when she moved on to bef, to bob and then back to A50. That was a weird sequence. However I also thought that her townreads came off rather naturally.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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My stance regarding Pret hasn't changed, he needs rope today imo. The claim combined with tris' flip emphasizes it even more now. We aren't in a hurry to end this day though.
I feel a bit iffy about A50's reaction to the skitter kill. Pret looks bad with tris' Doc flip anyway and skitter was townread by a good amount of players (and it was imo obvious that their EoD interactions weren't SvS) so even letting Pret/skitter continue for a while would most likely have ended in Pret's lynch anyway. Although I think it's more the Vig question that makes me feel iffy here. (and now also asking for a Vig claim)
Questionable might be if skitter had an obvious Tracker crumb or any extraordinary reads. Although I am inclined to think by first impression before ISOing that it was more some kind of fearkill or something like that.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Someone that already caught my eye during a reread when tris got flipped and now gets emphasized by his behaviour at the beginning of this day is Saladman.
At some point he posted his reads and listed tris as town in #375 and later when asked by Mizzy about his scumreads he moved his vote to tris in #406 because she was the scummier on the top two wagons (being vague as he said she wasn't scummy per say) as she was kind of non-existent according to him before he switched to Morality after being confronted by RCE. As standalone post not that weird, but in context with his townread on tris earlier this looks odd. It's not that tris posted in between these two posts by Saladman that could have changed his mind. To be fair the reads were done when he hadn't ISO'd everyone yet, but I want to know how tris turned from a townread to someone worthy lynching for.
VC was also pretty interesting at that point as Vex (A50 slot), DDL and Morality were at 2 votes I think with no real leading wagons.
I don't like his entrance into this day either, first him normally interacting with the thread and then quickly joining the wagon on Pret once others voted him, it reeks a bit like a bus if Pret is scum.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Yeah, had to force me to read through all this setup spec, I think it's not the time yet to guess the whole setup, it feels rather distracting.
I am rereading stuff regarding Pret so some random questions that my mind is associating right now.
@Pret:
What made you stay away from the DDL wagon on D1? For most of the time you held him in your lynch options but always put him into your 2nd choice behind ben and bob later.
How come you are so null the whole time on me? Assuming you are town for some unholy reason wouldn't VCA suggest me being scum from your point of view? After all my vote would have made sure you stay the only viable counterwagon to tris with 4:5 (so both leading wagons would be town if you are) while skitter was considering moving back and tris still had to show up.
What makes you think only one of DDL/Salad is scum? Salad was on your wagon and once it seemed your wagon was stalling and DDL's dissolving he moved on to tris (technically scum already had your claim anyway if they were believing you). Or is it because of their early game interactions?-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Don't forget to follow up on this.In post 1270, Saladman27 wrote:I blinked and 10 pages had gone by. VOTE: DDL, I’ll explain later why.
While we are at it also don't forget to tell what was up with that heel turn on tris on D1 from townread to vote on her. (not the vote at EoD)-
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Skellen she/herGoon
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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That's basically what is giving me an headache too.In post 1332, bob3141 wrote: makes you wonder why scum didnt go for pret or drd wagons but instead went for tris
If drd and pret town why didnt they get over the line. Now pret got to l-2 not sure if got as far are l-1.
Drd never got past 4
is one scum or are they both town. and if both are town why did scum not want them
The whole flash wagon thing stinks imo.
The whole DDL wagon shifted to tris (besides you) while the Pret wagon remained pretty stable, only Saladman joined the tris wagon, which broke the tie between tris/Pret. If DDL is scum that would make it likely that most of the scum were already stuck on the Pret wagon or offside the two major wagons pre-tris (only bef or LUV), because I am not sure if his partners vote him up as counterwagon to town!Pret who even claimed a PR before, so that would have been a pretty dangerous move. I townread RCE though so that would leave ben and DDl himself there on the Pret wagon, maybe Saladman who might have moved on to tris just to ensure a lynch will finally go through or force a claim out of tris. Regarding bef and LUV it is also noticeable that both weren't considering Pret as serious lynch option, so they weren't really in a position to jump in if things might have gone downhill for DDL. Also bef left the Pret wagon right after the DDl wagon gained momentum and became the counterwagon with Mizzy being the third vote, so I would lean that bef might be an unlikely partner then.
If Pret is red, then things might make more sense at least why the DDl wagon shifted that quickly over to tris. I wouldn't see there any major bussing either besides Saladman, because I don't think scum!Pret would allow to let scum!ben just keep tunnelling him through the whole day (and letting him continue on D2 without any other major sorting). Also Pret only voted against ben on D1 until he voted tris at the end of D1, so they would both have restricted each other while Pret was the leading wagon, which would leave a lot of work for the third scum. Something similar would be if both Pret and DDl are scum, just that Pret danced around the DDl wagon the whole day while DDl was stuck on Pret for most of the day. The thing that looks odd here though is the lack of a serious counterwagon for most of the time until DDl came up and as you said that wagon also stalled at 4 and even if the other two were there Pret wasn't really going there either unless scum!Pret was planning to wait till the timer runs down and hop on in last second because lynch for lynch's sake.
If both are town this is far more open, but again it looks odd how both wagons were stalling which either means scum were restricting themselves with their reads for some reason and couldn't push either wagon or they were already early on it (or waiting till the end and staying offside until then). As Pret said I could see scum going for other claims but I felt the DDL wagon wasn't really going anywhere, at least I don't remember right now who else was considering voting/scumreading DDL back then besides Pret.
I am aware that this is a lot of preflip spec and doesn't consider irrational hardbussing, but hell, I had to write down at some opportunity what was going through my head regarding the D1 wagons, so sorry for the wall.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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@Saladman:In post 1300, Skellen wrote: While we are at it also don't forget to tell what was up with that heel turn on tris on D1 from townread to vote on her. (not the vote at EoD)-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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As for DDL I think his case on A50 seems townie, I actually share his observation about A50 to an extent regarding his handling of Pret. I think I lean town on DDl for now, he seemed to me more like scummy town than scum and going by my wagon analysis in case of scum!DDL I have some doubts if he could be a team with Saladman or LUV. Want to reread some stuff just in case though.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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I won't just throw my townread out of the window and vote him. lolIn post 1353, Pretentious wrote:Skellen, vote RCEnigma with me.
Like I agree that his skitter comment doesn't look good (more kind of lamist like) and his hard focus on you worries me a bit (he actually is looking left and right though), but overall I am mindmelding with him on too many things to think I am wrong here with the current informations.
See, my problem with your solve is that both ben and RCE as scum is suggesting that 2/3 of the scum team are simply tunnelling you for the whole game. ben isn't even bothering to look elsewhere (he just now started actually suspecting Saladman), RCE is simultaneously looking elsewhere at least but also has no intention of moving elsewhere besides considering tris for a moment at the end of D1. Why are they restricting themselves that hard? If you would flip town there would probably be quite a backlash for them.
Also considering your suspects for the third scum slot Saladman, DDL and me were all on you, so besides A50 the whole scum team wouldn't have done much besides solely pushing you the whole first day. Which also contradicts what you said #1345 that they would look elsewhere for claims, none of those besides A50 (and Saladman early) weren't even bothering with going after DDL. I don't know if I misunderstood some context here but this thought process makes no sense with your proposed scum team.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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I see, skitter was also having a strange townread on him (for similar reasons as I suspect), so maybe I will roll with that for today.In post 1357, RCEnigma wrote: I've only seen his town game and it's always been awkward town. I don't think I've played with salad and he hasn't been lynched.
I guess what makes me wary of him how quick he is with joining wagons that gained or seem to gain some momentum or at least that's my impression.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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I might agree with this explanation why the flash wagon came up.In post 1359, RCEnigma wrote:The most reasonable explanation for the flash wagon is the hesitancy from slots suspicious of pret to actually Lynch there but there was still threat. DDL couldn't get off the ground but deadline and the probing on Tris caught traction.
I think DDL is town and there is scum in the common votes between DDL and Tris.
The deduction of your last line would mean that A50 would be the common scum as I take it you are town on bob and Mizzy. That's something I am also inclined to agree with.
However how do you explain the failed counterwagon with DDL? That's what is bugging me, because then it would mean that Pret played around joining the DDl wagon the whole time and wasting time arguing with skitter who was on the DDL wagon anyway. Also the other possible partners for Pret weren't really helping either, LUV had DDL out of his PoE and didn't had any presence anyway, BEF was townreading DDL and couldn't go there either, Saladman is the only versatile one here. Of course there is the ben "wagon" with both Pret and BEF, but that push was pretty half-assed, especially on Pret's part. So the tris flash wagon would have been a lucky opportunity, but they didn't really do much for it.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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So you think he jailed you in attempt to block scum!you from killing/doingwhatever?In post 1409, RCEnigma wrote:I also don't believe Pret targets me as JK there if he believes in scum. I was the loudest voice pushing against him even after the JK claim. If I'm scum and fear his claim even a little bit I'm 100% not making the kill and Pret would consider that.
I just went back and checked what his reads were on you, but that's hard to figure out from his ISO. The last specific read he gave on you on D1 was #463 which sounds rather null and is far away from EoD anyway, so it isn't telling much. At the end of D1 he had scum solves that didn't had you in and he was suspecting that he might get killed according to #944 (probably more likely with a flipped Doc). So if he was aiming for scum choosing you looks indeed like a weird choice.
If he was trying to protect you there wasn't any indication either as he never strongly read you as town. Going by #1135 it seemed like he was town on you, but not confident enough to keep you till lylo around. Although I think most of that read relates to D2 stuff, so there isn't probably much to get from either.
I think Pret has yet to explain why he choose you.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Not really seeing that tbh. At least I think that's not a good way to fish.In post 1411, RCEnigma wrote: I think he's fishing. That's the only thing that makes sense.
Like I thought that chances were pretty high that you would have been the nightkill in case scum wouldn't have played it safe after the Doc flip and would have killed Pret. So it was for me reasonable that he choosed you, I wasn't sure about the intention though (EoD posts kind of suggested he was considering skitter). Admittedly I missed his post to A50 were he basically said it was either skitter or you, but what he said regarding that recently is good enough for me.-
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Skellen she/herGoonshe/her
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Well, obviously I am staying off your wagon. I am just cracking for most time of D2 my head over you and I am neither convinced of scum!you nor town!you. I am suspecting you mostly for D1, your claim and the setup spec early D2 and I have the lingering fear that the reason why skitter died was simply because she was the only person that could stand up to you by charisma. Although I have the tendency like LUV that there is ultimately not much point in digging too much into the kill as I also have already seen skitter getting killed early for bad reasons.In post 1428, Pretentious wrote:And you can tell from Skellen’s trajectory they are pushing my wagon, but actively staying off of it.
And then again I think most of your reads on D2 make sense coming from your point of view if I assume town!you despite some inconsistencies (if that makes sense) and as I already pointed out I can't make sense out of your behaviour around your wagon and the stalling DDL counterwagon if you are scum (unless Mizzy is scum with you). Finally no push of you has been giving me the creeps yet unlike in Ramblings like when you were trying to fry the crow or lynched Titus and Succinct.