Mini Normal 2160 | FIA Group B | Endgame

[lilith2013]

So you think scum!FourEyes wanted to make town!Not_Mafia an IC?
Or you think he potentially paired the two of them so obviously?

not really sure what, but I don’t think the claim by itself is enough for me to townread him when there’s nothing else to show that he’s town.

[lilith2013]

I’m probably also fine with froppy being eliminated but also there must be a third so let’s do some other stuff rather than just going straight to an elimination?

[lilith2013]

I don’t think duck is scum btw

[lilith2013]

Wait, Froppy is the waterD/Sirius -slot?
Who's the leading advocate for that lynch this day and time?

Ducky came in voting it.

OK.
VOTE: the worst - time to solve this shit today instead of me resorting to paranoia every now and then.

Are you townreading froppy?

[lilith2013]

also once again, duck isn’t the only one pushing for a froppy elim, and it’s been clear he was going to do so since mid-D2

[lilith2013]

Why is NM ever the nightkill?

[lilith2013]

That also didn’t address any of the things I said and up until now am pretty sure you had me as a strong townread so the shade is a total 180

[lilith2013]

I mean feel free to engage with me if you disagree with stuff and actually are interested in helping progress the game forward, but yeah vaguely calling people out without actually engaging with the points = shade

[lilith2013]

You're trying to engage me for pushing a consistent Scum read while in VLA... Thanks for the invitation to engage while I know I can't.

Shade is actually when I say things are scummy. I didn't vote you, I didn't say I Scum read you. You read that all from nowhere.

I don’t pay attention to VLAs. regardless, my point isn’t about you pushing froppy, it’s about the lack of gamesolve.

Shade /= calling things scummy

[lilith2013]

You’ve blatantly ignored my actual points which are that I can’t remember actual efforts to gamesolve from you and that your activity around the plus wagon felt awkward

[lilith2013]

sigh okay I’m trying to make time to write actual analysis later

[lilith2013]

I just don’t feel like four has actually tried to help progress anything and like at the end of yesterday he was trying to support me pushing you when that was never realistically the elimination

[lilith2013]

And then I thought about it and changed my mind. And I never didn't want to eliminate Zombie slot. The claim was bad.

agreed - if four is scum he's necessarily bussing scum

yes, and..............? did you not just say that plus had massive bus equity?

[lilith2013]

.....

[lilith2013]

that’s good!

[lilith2013]

And then I thought about it and changed my mind. And I never didn't want to eliminate Zombie slot. The claim was bad.

agreed - if four is scum he's necessarily bussing scum

yes, and..............? did you not just say that plus had massive bus equity?

Er yes but you seem to be adamant that he is doing nothing therefore scum which feels..... at odds with reality

I said no gamesolving, not doing nothing. He's doing stuff, sure? but I don't feel like he's really made attempts to solve? and his stance both today and yesterday has pretty much been "here's today's elim, let's just move onto the next day"

[lilith2013]

here’s today’s elim, let’s just move onto the next day

Froppy

?

[lilith2013]

</3 I promise I’m not

[lilith2013]

if you're not scum with SS then who are you scum with

I’m not scum!!!! seriously!

[lilith2013]

And then I thought about it and changed my mind. And I never didn't want to eliminate Zombie slot. The claim was bad.

agreed - if four is scum he's necessarily bussing scum

yes, and..............? did you not just say that plus had massive bus equity?

Er yes but you seem to be adamant that he is doing nothing therefore scum which feels..... at odds with reality

did you mean "at odds with reality because you think he's not scum" or "because you don't think he's doing nothing"?

[lilith2013]

froppy > four/nm

do you think one of four/nm is scum? how can nm be scum if four isn't?

[lilith2013]

then why put them together?

[lilith2013]

yeah that’s fair

[lilith2013]

SS how convinced are you that froppy is scum?

[lilith2013]

I’m fine with a massclaim btw, but will be incapable of offering analysis of the setup

[lilith2013]

don’t worry, SS is here to save us

[lilith2013]

gah..

[lilith2013]

okay cool glad I could help

[lilith2013]

can you summarize general reasons for scum!froppy for me?

[lilith2013]

why not

[lilith2013]

? There should only be one other scum though if we’re 10:3, so it’s not like everyone delaying on the wagon is scum

[lilith2013]

Oh I’m not even voting froppy right now lmao

Intent to hammer yourself? Without a claim? Without a massclaim?

[lilith2013]

Can we.... massclaim like you said you wanted, una?

[lilith2013]

Before this day continues I would like to sincerely say that if I had offended anyone that was not my intentions. I was upset that I was never really given a fair shot because of the situation I came into and I took out that frustration on everyone. I want to admit that I had no intention to actually try but I want to be fair to my team and I think it is important that everyone gets to hear another side and the full story. Peace

I feel like this has to be a scumclaim, town!froppy was given an entire day phase to get their shit together while we were piling on plus. This post only makes sense if froppy is scum and felt that their team was already on the verge of being decimated when they replaced in. Like, I feel like town is doing pretty well so far and this level of defeatism doesn’t make sense.

could I see scum!una? maybe. we can revisit tomorrow.

[lilith2013]

Holding off on voting until we massclaim, since I think froppy could self-hammer to cut the massclaim short.

[lilith2013]

@mod can we get a prod on notmafia?

[lilith2013]

There’s a possibility that my scumread on four is more based on him playing like he’s informed and it’s due to his role, but I just can’t shake the feeling that he hasn’t attempted to help solve at all

[lilith2013]

this Froppy wagon seems to be proceeding much like the plusJOYed one Day 2.

What is this supposed to mean?

[lilith2013]

well at least this game got less boring, that’s for sure

[lilith2013]

this Froppy wagon seems to be proceeding much like the plusJOYed one Day 2.

What is this supposed to mean?

Wagon has been stalled with very few attempts to change it. It looks like the last Scum wagon we had on Scum who had given up

if you think froppy is a miselim I'm really surprised this post didn't make your skin crawl. it made mine crawl and I'm not even sure if froppy is a miselim.

yes thank you!!!! I wasn’t even sure how to put it but like........ so?????????? What does this post do????

[lilith2013]

Like it’s like, saying stuff but doesn’t say whether he thinks froppy is scum? does it make him want the wagon more? who fucking knows.

[lilith2013]

I don’t townread iv at all so like, that’s fine. okay. But if iv is scum then I don’t think froppy is also scum, given how froppy tried to push an iv counterwagon on D2. I’d actually say that four/iv feels like a better solve than froppy/iv.

Also regarding the whole four-informed thing, I was thinking that scum!four could be informed that NM is vanilla or something like that (ie related to NM’s role)? That would fit with the “theme” of rolecop/rolestop/neapolitan and would also kind of fit with the neapolitan being n2/n3, since the informed about a VT would be like a substitute for the N1 shot.

[lilith2013]

you know iv is like, actually secretly very experienced, not a cute noob right
his cute noob persona is a thinly veiled attempt to hide his dark twisted mind

other than that.....idk man i don't really have anything to say about your reads. they sure do consist of information. cool.

i feel like lilith keeps swinging painfully close to null for me but maybe that's because i've been on the receiving end of her extreme paranoia? i feel like it's hard to decide whether her probing this game is coming from a sincere solving headspace or just trying to look like it's accomplishing stuff. i don't think she's partnered with ss. i think from the outside it'd be pretty clear she's not partnered with me. like net of all things i think there's plenty of worlds where she's town but your read on her feels really underdevelopped..?

still don't believe you actually scumread me here.

yeah idk bout that read on me, like, consistent trajectory? Isn’t that most people in the plist? You’ve had a fairly consistent trajectory; hell, four has has a consistent trajectory, but I wouldn’t say it was a good one.

I don’t like that I’m null for you but I guess it is what it is. I think I have a hypothesis for why I’m not as townread as I usually am.

[lilith2013]

I'm always trying to pocket Lilith, it's just not alignment related.
Lilith's playstyle is as precise as it is intuitive and as prickly as it is workable. at a policy level she's just an absurdly bad pocket choice.

I’m taking this as a compliment <3

[lilith2013]

eh nvm my read on froppy is still around the area of “hot garbage” regardless of who else we think is scum.

Before this day continues I would like to sincerely say that if I had offended anyone that was not my intentions. I was upset that I was never really given a fair shot because of the situation I came into and I took out that frustration on everyone. I want to admit that I had no intention to actually try but I want to be fair to my team and I think it is important that everyone gets to hear another side and the full story. Peace

I feel like this has to be a scumclaim, town!froppy was given an entire day phase to get their shit together while we were piling on plus. This post only makes sense if froppy is scum and felt that their team was already on the verge of being decimated when they replaced in. Like, I feel like town is doing pretty well so far and this level of defeatism doesn’t make sense.

could I see scum!una? maybe. we can revisit tomorrow.

she just fucking dipped.

[lilith2013]

I’m pretty sure froppy is scum with that frustration since her replacement in.

[lilith2013]

VOTE: Sirius9121 - scum want this around for lategame way more than town does.
Just get rid of it here, and we can start the game D2.

I think this is town unless Sirius is scum

I was thinking about this post last night too

[lilith2013]

like, I think I mostly believe una, but I also don’t really think it’s mutually exclusive with scum!una?

[lilith2013]

and scum!una fits with SS’s earlier theory of una being town unless sirius/froppy slot is scum

[lilith2013]

I’m pretty whatever about everyone except SS and duck though

[lilith2013]

I reread some SS things last night after feeling a bit paranoid about this game and I am like 150% sold on town!SS btw

[lilith2013]

I don’t think I’ve ever really townread iv?

[lilith2013]

I feel kind of ok with town!billy. like I think somewhere around

SS


duck
billy
una/iv/nm
four
froppy

[lilith2013]

I feel some dissonance with una but I felt a similar way about norweej so I feel like it might just be a language thing? like just the usage and emphasis of certain words is throwing me off? (only slightly related, I was thinking about stuff while in transit yesterday and I could feel myself like bolding phrases in my head the way I think una would.)

[lilith2013]

but also it’s a similar dissonance to like my dissonance with someone who was scum from a previous game. idk. I can’t tell if it’s a personality/posting style thing or actually me getting vibes that mean I should be scumreading them

[lilith2013]

is me deciding to tentatively townread you based on things you didn’t say to me but just like me rereading things considered being pocketed?

[lilith2013]

idk like if you were really trying to pocket me, I don’t think you’d do it in this weird sideways “sometimes I townread lilith but then I scumread her sometimes and she’s just like pretty null a lot of the time”

[lilith2013]

if you’re scum, I pocketed myself

[lilith2013]

I think I’ve played scum too much recently and now I don’t remember how to town properly

[lilith2013]

I agree, una’s reads feel like they’re taking a pretty simplistic view of the game especially with regards to you and me, but not sure if that’s scum indicative. I do feel like rolestopping nepenthes N1 was at face value a bit towards the towny side.

[lilith2013]

Like, I think we “have proof” that the rolestop happened because of the shenanigans around night results (I think una targeted nepenthes and osuka thought it was a roleblock and then realized it was a rolestop and changed the results, and because nepenthes originally received a “no result,” we know that fake-roleblocker!una did in fact target nepenthes; also I think if this is what happened, una and four probably can’t be scum together because I posited this scenario and four was like “oh I hadn’t thought of that at all”), so una’s claim is at least partly true. I think (caveat, I am awful at setup spec/game balance) that town!rolestopper makes more sense than scum!rolestopper, and I also think (again caveat, I’m awful at determining who is optimal to target as a PR) that nepenthes makes sense as an N1 town!rolestopper target because of her PR claim at the end of day.

The N1 kill was saudade’s slot, and I’m wondering if he tried to soft or unintentionally softed by saying “oh I’m definitely the N1 NK” or if that was just him being cocky, because I couldn’t see a reason for scum to NK saudade over nepenthes who had hard claimed some kind of PR, or if the NK was more likely an attempt to kill two birds with one stone (NK saudade, who is universally townread and might have softed; and that in turn implicates nepenthes and sets up her elimination, because saudade was pretty much only pushing for nepenthes D1)

[lilith2013]

and if it’s the latter, I think that also probably points to town!una for rolestopping nepenthes there and trying to get results out of her

[lilith2013]

I guess it’s still possible for scum!una to do that to prevent investigation results on nepenthes, but then I don’t think he’d have come charging out of the gate like that on D2.

[lilith2013]

okay so:

SS


duck
billy/una
iv/nm (null)
four
froppy

[lilith2013]

I’m tired from thinking so much. I intend to do a full reread at some point but will probably start it later tonight.

[lilith2013]

Ok then.
I'll ISO-dive lilith separately during the week.
Can't promise an exact day because coaching responsibilites and work, but I'll do it.

I don't understand how this is the conclusion you come to after the discussion being about froppy....?

[lilith2013]

okay so:

SS


duck
billy/una
iv/nm (null)
four
froppy

conditional addition: if froppy is scum then una goes back into my scumpool I think

[lilith2013]

I reread some SS things last night after feeling a bit paranoid about this game and I am like 150% sold on town!SS btw

OK, guess not then.
Then what did you mean by your 4174?
I'm really baffled now.

SS said D1 that you’re town unless sirius (now froppy) is scum. I said I’ve been thinking about that post and maybe that’s right, that you’re scum with froppy. Then I changed my mind based on your N1.

[lilith2013]

I feel kind of ok with town!billy. like I think somewhere around

SS


duck
billy
una/iv/nm
four
froppy

You really feel set on BuDucky?
I feel like this puts you in a corner D4 if you are scum.
And I hope someone will hold you to this if I'm not able to do so.

I’m not scum so it doesn’t matter but I’ve had SS/duck at the top of my readslist since end of D2

[lilith2013]

I do think his conclusions are kinda off but I think I have been too lazy w IV and I can kinda.... Possibly see how that looks partnery given I'm giving a very short leash to most players this game

This is the line that we need to solve.
I'm afraid this will turn into another game where I've focused too much on playing my role, and therefore am "disconnected" from my teammates.
Therefore they will not trust my reads even if they might trust in my alignment.
It was a similar thing in "Blessed Mafia" (once again, a reference to that ) where I called them out 3/3 based on associatives and night results alone, but was unable to rally the rest of the town behind me.

I can't stress the point enough, that while Ducky is an above average heart throb and a darling, they are still a savage murderer and a scoundrel when they roll scum.

Just don't let them off easy.

That's all.

have you read the like hundred posts or so where I went off on him.....?

[lilith2013]

idk what’s up with people seriously overestimating me/scum!me, but anyway - this is literally the first time I even noticed pooky crumbing. I straight up thought saudade was VT the way he was playing

[lilith2013]

If froppy flips red, I think third scum is within iv/four/duck (plus/froppy bussers). Actually I’m not sure if iv has said anything about the froppy slot at all

[lilith2013]

“Getting shot N1” /= “being weak” though. That would be stronger if he had said “I’ve already accepted that I’m dying N1” rather than “being n1ed.”

[lilith2013]

that’s fair. that’s a bit why I’ve been suspecting four, and to a lesser extent you, after I started townreading duck. I think someone said that four is an alt, and I think you’re capable as well.

[lilith2013]

that’s fair. that’s a bit why I’ve been suspecting four, and to a lesser extent you, after I started townreading duck. I think someone said that four is an alt, and I think you’re capable as well.

I said I'm an alt.

The fact is, I'm an alt of a dumb player who doesn't bother to look for crumbs, which I know because I am he.

Just being an alt doesn't make me smart, or good. I use alts to hide from the people who know I'm not good or smart.

We don’t know who your main is, so forgive me if I don’t trust you at your word 100%

[lilith2013]

I can go dig up the posts that led me to townreading duck, but I think his position on me only makes sense if he intends to bring me to LYLO to be the miselim. If I make it to LYLO and he’s still alive, then I’d definitely question my read on him.

[lilith2013]

So, you'd rather assume that I'm some genius because I'm an alt?

Fuck, I must be great.

Apparently I’m in the pool of possibilities and I’ve never read a PR-crumb in my life, so you can’t make less sense in the pool than me

[lilith2013]

Once again, you’re here in the thread but I don’t get any sense that you actually want this game to go anywhere.

[lilith2013]

So, you'd rather assume that I'm some genius because I'm an alt?

Fuck, I must be great.

Apparently I’m in the pool of possibilities and I’ve never read a PR-crumb in my life, so you can’t make less sense in the pool than me

But, you literally just said you thought Saudade was a VT. So, how does that line up?

yeah, I know. una put me in the pool, not me?

[lilith2013]

What are you even trying to get at?

[lilith2013]

I'm just confused how you thought that he was a VT if you've never read a crumb. So, there must have been something in his posting that lead you to think he was a VT and not a PR?

That seems to me like a strange disconnect. I was sorting town and not town, not VTs, PRs and scum, which seems like what you might be saying?

He was playing like what I thought a VT would play like. I never saw any crumbs??

[lilith2013]

Why is this your line of questioning......? This is like the least relevant part of the game right now

[lilith2013]

I didn’t think about it particularly until after pooky died and flipped rolecop, and then I thought “oh, that was really unexpected, I thought he was going to flip VT based on how aggressive saudade was.” I don’t understand why I’m not allowed to think about that??????

[lilith2013]

Like wtf is this question

[lilith2013]

Or osuka thought that the definition of rolestopper meant you roleblocked nepenthes instead of making her ascetic, which blocked her track? I don’t understand what scenario of scum roleblocker leads to osuka resolving actions incorrectly.

[lilith2013]

I’m literally not PR hunting, you seem to be trying to find any excuse to shade me, fuck off?

[lilith2013]

I’m not going around trying to read crumbs, but if I can get a sense of who might be a PR trying to hide rather than scum acting scummy, how is that a bad thing?

[lilith2013]

I have zero clue how you think me saying I didn’t see any of pooky’s crumbs is an issue worth pursuing that you think is going to be AI.

[lilith2013]

No, I don’t think you’re approaching this in good faith whatsoever. To steal a line from someone else, I don’t think you’re in “questioning” mode, you’re already in kill mode.

[lilith2013]

Osuka didn’t necessarily know the setup, it was designed by cfj. I also thought rolestopper was the same as roleblocker coming into the game. To me it’s clear that under NAR, rolestopper resolves before roleblocker when used on the same target, because that’s literally what rolestopper is supposed to do.

[lilith2013]

I have zero clue how you think me saying I didn’t see any of pooky’s crumbs is an issue worth pursuing that you think is going to be AI.

It's not that, I've said this three times, its that you said you thought he was playing like a VT. I don't see the town benefit of trying to identify VTs rather than Town PRs.

I’m not going around trying to read crumbs, but if I can get a sense of who might be a PR trying to hide rather than scum acting scummy, how is that a bad thing?

[lilith2013]

This is not a scummy thing to do. I’m allowed to think about who might be a PR when I’m town. You are literally questioning me for something you are supposed to be at least somewhat aware of when town so that you can help your PRs not get wagoned. Scum are by definition PR hunting, and if town doesn’t pay attention to that then we’re already another step behind.

[lilith2013]

Even still, it’s not like I’m super actively doing it, it’s something I thought about after pooky was already dead, and like in nepenthes’ case it was after she claimed that I looked at her ISO and was like “yeah her being a PR and playing like this kinda makes sense.”

[lilith2013]

I also thought rolestopper was the same as roleblocker coming into the game. To me it’s clear that under NAR, rolestopper resolves before roleblocker when used on the same target, because that’s literally what rolestopper is supposed to do.

Then what about a scenario where I was actually roleblocked? (not likely N1, but I think that might've happened last night).
In that scenario, my rolestop is blocked and there's no contradiction even if there might initially appear to be one.
It's not as black and white when you are resolving multiple actions, and we do not know the full role-list.

That can’t have been the scenario, because the original resolution of you being roleblocked shouldn’t have prevented nepenthes from getting a result.

[lilith2013]

It has to be a scenario where osuka’s intepretation of the actions meant that nepenthes was blocked or you were rolestopped also.

[lilith2013]

Legit this is the fucking weirdest thing to question me about and I can’t imagine what you think you’re going to get out of this that’s AI and can’t first be read in my like 600 other posts. Why this one point in particular out of all the things you could question me about? I don’t believe you genuinely think that PR hunting is the most alignment indicative issue we could talk about given we have 170 pages of content and I’ve provided like, actual reads and game content.

[lilith2013]

I don’t have any idea whether they have a roleblocker, I just think if they did, it wasn’t necessarily part of osuka’s confusion.

[lilith2013]

SS said the same thing as me. I feel like it’s occam’s razor and the rolestop vs roleblock confusion is the easiest mistake to make.

[lilith2013]

I guess I think that’s the easiest mistake to make because I also made that mistake

[lilith2013]

How does any explanation I provide about thinking saudade was VT help you determine my alignment?

[lilith2013]

by the way, I’ve provided said explanation, so now what?

[lilith2013]

oh right, you’re ignoring me so you won’t actually explain how that line of questioning helps you determine my alignment. Cool.

[lilith2013]

the frustration seems genuine, I guess. I still don’t get how town!four thinks it’s scummy for me to think about PRs as town, but whatever.

[lilith2013]

uhhhh the tldr is i’m pretty sure you replaced into a scumslot or if not scum then a slot that can’t be allowed to live to LYLO anyway

[lilith2013]

It’s literally “ok I townread duck and I think his townread on you is ok so you’re slightly more town than null.” I don’t actually have a townread on you.

[lilith2013]

please don’t call me 2013 lmao

[lilith2013]

deadline is 4 days.

okay, you characterize my early posting as fluffy, fine. how do you differentiate that as scummy from what you call “relaxed” and “obvtown” for other people though?

[lilith2013]

no I still want shellyc. VOTE: shelly

[lilith2013]

I don't really think it matters what you flip. If you're town, scum will keep you alive until the end of time for the miselim opportunity. I reeeeeeeally don't think froppy giving up like that was towny though.

[lilith2013]

your slot probably dies before endgame but if you're green like, i think iiii is necessarilyr ed

can you explain this for me?

[lilith2013]

I am not informed. It’s four, who duck is writing as “iiii”

[lilith2013]

lmao

[lilith2013]

Why would scum care about quickhammering here?

[lilith2013]

your slot probably dies before endgame but if you're green like, i think iiii is necessarilyr ed

can you explain this for me?

also ^

[lilith2013]

oh right yeah.

do you think there was towncred to be had in defending nepenthes early on?

[lilith2013]

I think I might think iv is scum but I'm kind of trying to reframe his D1 to see if that makes sense.

[lilith2013]

man I read my posts again and I just still have no read of my own on billy. can you talk about why you think he's towny? I know you said it was like some kind of gradual realization, but what exactly about his posts make you start thinking that way about him?

[lilith2013]

oh, I was pretty null on nepenthes?

[lilith2013]

What's your read on lili then?

im currently on lili because 1) I want to get this wagon going and 2) at the end of the day four still /claimed/

the hell? early claim /= town

[lilith2013]

what a shitty reason tbh

[lilith2013]

I was paranoia-scumreading duck for a while but I feel like he’s probably town. I don’t really think anyone else thinks he’s scum.

Can we revisit this:

scum = SS/Sausade?

if these two are both scum i will actually consider eating duck postgame.

Is it like, such a horrible take that it must come from town? Or is it such an obviously horrible take that scum!sirius attempts to make us think it’s such a horrible take that it must come from town?

this slot has had consistently bad takes. I honestly can’t believe that 4 separate people behave like this in a town slot.

[lilith2013]

froppy + una almost makes sense but does scum!una take such a massive risk to save their partner by shouting about worsty?

I could see it if froppy slot is a PR.

[lilith2013]

I enjoy the fact you thought of bussing as well

My point was less that bussing was possible (it sure is) and more that that being S -> T was unlikely.

Why is s>t unlikely?

Probably because it's exactly on point. Why take responsibility for leading the charge on the easiest mis-exe in the world when you can sit back and let townies do it?

These are in regards to una pushing a sirius wagon D1^

[lilith2013]

so - we flip shelly/froppy. If she’s town, then that probably clears una, and also makes four worth revisiting

pedit: yeah

[lilith2013]

Oh actually, I’d rather wait until we’re in replacement range for nm so we can get some content out of that slot. That would be nice

[lilith2013]

@una this is what I meant by “froppy giving up,” although the replace out doesn’t help her case.

Before this day continues I would like to sincerely say that if I had offended anyone that was not my intentions. I was upset that I was never really given a fair shot because of the situation I came into and I took out that frustration on everyone. I want to admit that I had no intention to actually try but I want to be fair to my team and I think it is important that everyone gets to hear another side and the full story. Peace

I feel like this has to be a scumclaim, town!froppy was given an entire day phase to get their shit together while we were piling on plus. This post only makes sense if froppy is scum and felt that their team was already on the verge of being decimated when they replaced in. Like, I feel like town is doing pretty well so far and this level of defeatism doesn’t make sense.

could I see scum!una? maybe. we can revisit tomorrow.

[lilith2013]

like does town!froppy make that post the day after we power-eliminated a scum PR?

[lilith2013]

If it was a bus, it was a silly one - only aiming for him to become lock!town and to try and win the game solo endgame.

Besides, if I were doing that, then I would probably just become useless and fade into the background for the next few days...

[lilith2013]

Una is just town, for like four different reasons.

What are the reasons?

[lilith2013]

I keep telling myself I’m going to reread the game in full and try to piece things together in light of scum!zombie and then my brain sees the page count and is like “nah, doesn’t sleeping sound nice instead?”

[lilith2013]

If I’m still alive tomorrow, I pinky pinky swear I will do it

[lilith2013]

so now it's over it occurred to me the other day that SS is less excited here than he was in pypx/y and then I realised I am also less excited here than I was in pypx/y and that's probably more attributable towards the stomp/autowin alignment tells.

Ty all for listening

pedit: ah I didn't notice at all. I'm not a smart duck, and I try my best not to ID alts generally.

yeah I noticed the lack of excitement and that was actually part of why I was scumreading you

[lilith2013]

I wouldn’t say less excited but like, less in tune with the game? less vibey? idk, I have a sample size of 1

[lilith2013]

btw I was starting to be a bit paranoid of locktowning SS so early and how he was like “I can’t be scum if lilith says I’m town” because he’s scumreading me still presumably and that felt icky; but then I read another game that he joined and my usual lightbulb went off and that made me feel a lot better about it.

[lilith2013]

I wouldn’t say less excited but like, less in tune with the game? less vibey? idk, I have a sample size of 1

that's interesting, I rarely feel vibey as town these days
this feels like something creature would post

I’m trying to be more about “gut! vibes!” because my intellectual reads are often wrong. But also this was around the time where I was like, explaining that we vibe really well as people and it was jarring to not vibe with you in game at all.

[lilith2013]

Honestly if the only person I can successfully viberead is SS, I’ll take it

[lilith2013]

that scenario continuously turns around in my head and I think I'm satisfied that

- if you/ss rolled scum together without me I'm just gonna leave the site out of sadness

</3 I promise we’re not scum together

- if you are scum and ss isn't that is kinda fine and I tend to agree you are spewing him town that's fine

ok yep

- if he's scum and you aren't then that's a suuuper negligent read and I think there's a pretty low chance both you and I are negligent and have the same read

already thought about this and that’s why I got paranoid and rechecked the read and I think it’s good. I will personally take responsibility for town loss if ss is scum

- you can both be town sure

I’ll take this one for 500, alex

[lilith2013]

I can’t get into it any further because ~ongoing games~ but yeah. If this is scum!ss I would probably leave this site just from shame.

[lilith2013]

I wasn’t intending that to be read as sarcasm, I was actually asking

[lilith2013]

thanks!

[lilith2013]

I thought una coming after nepenthes D2 was towny, I just didn’t really have good reasons to think he’s town other than that. so that makes me feel better about him.

[lilith2013]

i was laying on a grassy hill, watching the sky, and suddenly!!!! the clouds parted!!!!! and mufasa told me he's town
i'll go thru it a bit more when i'm not working

hi duck please do this when you get the chance (re: billy read)

[lilith2013]

?????

If you are killed, you may no longer post. No "bah" posts.

[lilith2013]

gah no replacement okay. can we flip shelly now?

[lilith2013]

if I die is lilith just gonna endgame

probably

excuse me

if I were anywhere close to being a deepwolf I would always kill you N1

[lilith2013]

this day has been a complete waste

also like... if you wanted other things to happen, maybe you should do those things....?

[lilith2013]

that wouldn't really be a consideration for said kill (see G&R)

[lilith2013]

was that actually a hammer?

[lilith2013]

that's nasty

(also happy bday!!!)

[lilith2013]

is it time for birthday shots yet?

[lilith2013]

how am I supposed to take birthday shots with you if you won't check your messages dammit

[lilith2013]

booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[lilith2013]

does our mod need a prod... o.o

[lilith2013]

nooooooooooooo ss

[lilith2013]

at least my SS read rate is still 100%? that’s a plus?

[lilith2013]

I think SS being so sure about zombie D2 indicates a N1 guilty but, as I promised, I will in fact be doing a complete reread and I’ll see if he left any crumbs pointing to someone else

[lilith2013]

idk I have no idea

[lilith2013]

nm if you’re town we really need you to do stuff okay

[lilith2013]

i'm like roughly 170% sure this is a guilty

????

You should be able to mindmeld with me here. I wouldn't come out of the gate voting someone unless I was damn confident.

yeah that’s what I thought

[lilith2013]

ugh

[lilith2013]

also that’s not like 100% true? if mwnn is town then NM is town, but if mwnn is scum then NM’s alignment isn’t guaranteed?

[lilith2013]

If mwnn is scum do you think that means scum! or town! nm?

[lilith2013]

i could see it on partner!NM because like *shrug* you may as well do something with dead weight (nm's towngame is better than his scumgame, memes aside)

but on like d1? before it was a not_mafia slot? and after really heavily hamfistedly crumbing that you were informed he was town?

nah bro he's either town who is informed NM is town, or he's scum who is really heavily committed to this fakeclaim and atp i think the chance it's on a scumbuddy is pretty low.

{mwnn,nm} is vvvveeeeeeeeeerrryyyyy unlikely the solve.

then you’re theorizing that NM is always town here, but wouldn’t that be like the primary point of scum!four claiming informed on the NM slot so early? why else would scum!four feel the need to say that?

[lilith2013]

like, in what world does scum!four claim informed early D1 on town!NM?

[lilith2013]

I'm arguing that NM is not confirmed town if four is scum.

[lilith2013]

do you think four is town?

[lilith2013]

vt, btw

[lilith2013]

no, and I don't really plan to since I am planning on reading 187 pages of this game instead and I also am kind of on principle against meta that isn't personal. I also couldn't tell at all whether you were trying to say he was closer to his town game or scum game.

[lilith2013]

okay........

[lilith2013]

me: why did I say I would reread 187 pages, that's so long, I don't wanna do it anymore
also me: bitch you literally signed up for this, just start reading already

[lilith2013]

when he flipped tpr?

[lilith2013]

this is my attempt to be useful, just let me have it okay

[lilith2013]

btw I was starting to be a bit paranoid of locktowning SS so early and how he was like “I can’t be scum if lilith says I’m town” because he’s scumreading me still presumably and that felt icky; but then I read another game that he joined and my usual lightbulb went off and that made me feel a lot better about it.

I can’t get into it any further because ~ongoing games~ but yeah. If this is scum!ss I would probably leave this site just from shame.

please see above. sorry, I really shouldn't say any more.

[lilith2013]

I changed my mind and will humor you by reading the mwnn games you linked.

[lilith2013]

okay I think I got what I wanted out of reading those. did you want to discuss with me or are you waiting for other people?

[lilith2013]

I was already independently townreading four (and atm he's probably the read I feel least uncomfortable about), but I think the meta-ing leans him more town as well.

[lilith2013]

town!four -> town!nm. town!una. leaving duck/billy/iv. I don't think there's, like, any expectation that billy/iv as remaining scum survive this long. do all roads lead back to scum!duck?

pedit: as I've said before, I am absolute shit at reading crumbs

[lilith2013]

don't make me quote ss at you

[lilith2013]

these are the posts about una that I remember distinctly.

VOTE: Sirius9121 - scum want this around for lategame way more than town does.
Just get rid of it here, and we can start the game D2.

I think this is town unless Sirius is scum

I enjoy the fact you thought of bussing as well

My point was less that bussing was possible (it sure is) and more that that being S -> T was unlikely.

What are the reasons?

lol I knew I would get called on this

it's probably not actually four, but hey maybe it is. let's count together!

- One. Una's reaction to Nepenthes's moderror'd claim. Obviously, it was true, as corroborated by Nepenthes's corrected claim. And, it was pretty vehement, which sounds like a death warrant for scum-Una who would both (a) realize that Nepenthes is in fact going to flip town and he's gonna look bad and (b) realize that, in fact, the only way Nepenthes would get that result would be from a TOWN rolestopper, and Una would be walking straight into a CC.

- Two. How he's played his role. His crumbs have been pretty solid and they have me convinced that he is in fact an indecisive rolestopper. And, like why would he actually rolestop the town PR claim as scum? That sounds like a great thing to claim to have done while actually rolestopping a buddy. But we have confirmation that he did, in fact, visit Nepenthes, and then he danced around claiming indecisive because he correctly knew that it would be a bad thing to have to claim but he also reasoned he'd have to claim it or he would look really bad.

- Three. Meta. I know it's stale and sketchy, but he feels really genuine and heartfelt in his pushes, and I don't remember him doing that as scum. He mostly faded into the background. I was able to read him off of this even when he was playing under an alt and I didn't know it was him, so this is really just regular towniness that happens to also agree with his meta.

- Four. The Sirius policy exe on D1. I think I've explained this; it's about the worst angle for scum-Una to take on D1, unless Sirius-slot is also scum. And if Sirius-slot is scum... then why is he not pushing it NOW?

Oh look it actually was four! Who knew.

[lilith2013]

uh.... that it's a setup? I have zero experience balancing setups and I'm not mechanically oriented, so you could give me any setup and no matter how unbalanced or swingy it was, I'd look at it and probably be like "oh yeah that looks cool"

self-deprecation aside, I think the currently claimed town power is pretty huge and either requires a large advantage for scum in the form of several PRs or maybe even a fourth member (please god no), or involves someone lying.

[lilith2013]

una, where has duck voiced suspicion of you today?

[lilith2013]

oh oops. blind. please ignore.

[lilith2013]

I think SS raised some really good points about una, no?

[lilith2013]

oh oops.

blind.

literally forgot I even responded to that with a sassy pagetop. please ignore.

ebwop. I think I might be going crazy.

[lilith2013]

okay

[lilith2013]

I'm at a point where I don't trust like, any of the reads or thoughts I have anymore. I think mwnn is town, and it makes no sense for scum!duck to townread him today after duck explicitly said that a green shelly flip almost definitely meant that mwnn was scum. But it doesn't make sense for billy/iv to be the remaining two scum either, which it has to be if four, nm, una, and duck are all town. so that makes me doubt my townread on mwnn, because I can't really scumread duck for townreading mwnn unless mwnn is also scum. But I think mwnn is town. and around and around we go.

[lilith2013]

could it just be billy/iv then?

[lilith2013]

I want to think you're town!!!!!! but that means scum are billy/iv which is like ??????????

[lilith2013]

sorry I also meant to say "same" or something like that

[lilith2013]

billy/iv scumteam also means that both town!you and town!una independently started townreading billy incorrectly and I'm just like asdjfhwerkrhnq about that

[lilith2013]

I holstered last night, so I'm either dead tonight, or we are fucked unless we land a scum!roleblocker today.

funny, i was thinking that too.

I'm sure you were.
If scum dodge a lynch today, I'm the miselim-target tomorrow.
Whether it's scum!Ducky or town!Ducky, IF scum can block me tonight there's like a 75% chance that both me AND ducky are around tomorrow to duke it out.
Hence, why I tried to poke at the idea that "we need to land scum today" YESTERDAY.

okay, and who did you think was scum at the end of yesterday?

[lilith2013]

like no shit isn't the whole point that we're trying to eliminate scum every day, it's not like we're out here just picking a random person and being like "YOU'RE TOWN BUT FUCK IT LET'S ELIMINATE YOU"

[lilith2013]

like no shit isn't the whole point that we're trying to eliminate scum every day, it's not like we're out here just picking a random person and being like "YOU'RE TOWN BUT FUCK IT LET'S ELIMINATE YOU"

LMAO i was thinking this but decided to dial back the sass

Well fuck you both for intentionally misunderstanding me at every turn then!
What I obviously meant, was that yesterday was the day to ACTUALLY LAND THE SCUMMIEST PLAYER, instead of going for froppy ~because they hadn't done anything~.
If you can't understand the difference between the two, then I guess you don't have any very strong scumreads?

Now I already felt like IV was "spared" yesterday.
Either to make them the target for today/endgame, or simply because they are scum.
And I'd argue that both of these incriminate the people who were most vocal about flipping froppy.
That's my take on yesterday.

and again I ask you, who did you think was the scummiest player at the end of yesterday?

[lilith2013]

go ahead and blame other people for eliminating a slot that had like, negative town equity, which I genuinely thought was always going to roll scum. you were just shouting at duck the whole time and then decided that it wasn't a wagon worth pushing after all and dropped it. we're all doing our goddamn best.

[lilith2013]

honestly if it weren't for SS towncasing una I'd probably be scumreading him here based on interactions with duck yesterday.

[lilith2013]

I attempted to find it but the only thing I saw was him being like "sorry I said you weren't funny" at you.

[lilith2013]

you could say... a

bully

[lilith2013]

[lilith2013]

no?

[lilith2013]

what was concerning?