Mini Normal 2169 : random facts, game over !

[TheGoldenParadox]

it's been five hours. how do we already have nine pages? Discussion so far seems pretty spammy and unhelpful, so let's VOTE: noraa because they're giving me quite scummy vibes.

[TheGoldenParadox]

So far BM's the scummiest person here. I see his SR on me as trying to set up some easy limbait since I hear I tend to give off that first impression. Ofc we are still technically kinda in rvs so this is a fairly weak read but ye I will be putting this here for future reference of what I was thinking 3 pages into the game. First impressions can often help town find the scums so I'm not too sure if I found one but we'll see

I feel greatly bullied here btw
y'all tunnel hard
accuse me of using AtE if u wish. In a way it is asking u to stop tunneling this hard

The reason is that town is going to let the other scums do whatever tf they want.

Why is this a bad thing tho, we still get a scum for the trouble and we can worry about sorting the others later if this is TvS

my point is that we also need to be keeping an eye out for the other scums. I, for one want a BM lim today since I am literally so certain those aggressive pushes dont come from town. But I think while we are doing this, we should be keeping an eye out for the other scums.

to elaborate a bit on my read - nora right now is doing exactly to bm what they are accusing bm of doing to others. the hypocrisy is not lost. i don't see nora vs bm as TvT but right now I'm null on BM and scumreading nora, and i absolutely think this could be an SvS bussing episode.
i'm slightly confused as to why town would be this confident in a read that they have developed in the first few hours of the game? if you're THIS confident that BM is scum, then simply voting them and removing them (without "keeping an eye out" for the other scum) would give town a massive leg up. i'm looking at nora as potential scum, and i'm looking at BM as a potential scumpartner. piisirrational is looking pretty good to me right now, although i will acknowledge that i am biased towards analyzers/gamesolvers so i'm putting him as a null, maybe a slight townlean. although menalque is kinda annoying me with their posting frequency, i'm townleaning them because they seem at least a little bit genuine about trying to read the BM/Nora bandwagon. no one else has enough substance to be read right now.

to respond to #224 - no it didn't; most players haven't posted anything substantial yet.

[TheGoldenParadox]

EBWOP - sorry i meant bm/nora fight, not bandwagon.

[TheGoldenParadox]

and i'm looking at BM as a potential scumpartner.

This is a spicy take, you think BM would bus right out of the gate on page 2?

Also, yeah, sorry about the posting frequency I will be trying to dial it down, just gimme some leeway for the first day or so I’m v excited by this PL and that’s running through a bit

all good! yeah i haven't been on the site in a while and don't have personal experience with anyone here i don't think; but i do think that scum opening with straight bussing on page 2 is reasonable and not completely irration
bussing is one of those things that you can WIFOM the hell out of though so i'll have to wait and see

side note: i've been reading the wiki to get up to speed on all the hip new sayings - has LyLo been replaced by ELo in its entirety or is LyLo still pretty commonly used?

[TheGoldenParadox]

jesus christ there's a lot to read through
gut after iso'ing nora is that they're more overeager/newbie town because it doesn't seem to me like newbscum would jump in and hypocritically tunnel someone.
VOTE: battlemage scumreading BM because i'm not a fan of their content. 385 gives me quite scummy vibes - it feels like something i wouldn't see town saying and it seems like BM is basically trying to use my words to say "noraa's scum, i'm town" but in a weirdly buddying way.

[TheGoldenParadox]

ico can we talk about this once i manage to get to the presentwhat's the non-townie logic in the first part?

'i scumread player x after reading the game'

also: 'i think the game is all spam and utterly useless'

what doesn't comply here?

not only are you twisting my words ("discussion so far seems pretty spammy and unhelpful") to ("i think the game is all spam and utterly useless"), there really wasn't much content other than the nora/bm fight, which was far less than the nine pages we'd gotten to at that point. scumreading Iconeum because i don't really see their logic on voting me as being town-motivated - my vote will stay where it is for now, but that will change if ico gets noticably scummier.

Im feeling a slight lean town lean on golden, as if golden was partnered with either of bm or noraa i just dont think he would come in and push the fresh idea that they are just scum getting in early bussing.

Especially after choosing to vote for the one with the largest wagon. Of the two players he has stated as being svs. And not only that but a fourth vote on the first wagon. An ice breaker often done by town.

however Golden also states a world in which BM is null and at the end of the day if Golden believes it's SvS why not vote for BM?

didn't vote for bm because i was more suspicious of noraa, there was already a noraa wagon (which allows actual pressure to be created), and nora was the hypocrite there and looked scummier to me. rn i think noraa is just newbie town, but being confident in bm!scum within the first day doesn't really scream town; noraa will stay at a light townread.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Note to self do not reconsider my reads or change my stances ever again.

Note to self do not townread people.

also how am I pocketing you if I now think you're scum

uhh yeah this post scumpings hard wth
this is basically textbook manipulation VOTE: shelly

also nora's reads on menal and me scream newbtown. talking abt who "benefits most" from a hypocritical catfight that you started pings me as a really "not newbscum" thing to say.

[TheGoldenParadox]

look, y'all both escalated a fight over a really. weird. scumread on bm by you after his claim. am i saying you're scum? no. do i really trust your reads right now, and do i think your scumreads on menal and me are legitimate instead of simply trying to generate empty content? no, not really. you're looking really defensive to me right now, so while i'm staying with my light townlean, i'm not confident in it either.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Note to self do not reconsider my reads or change my stances ever again.

Note to self do not townread people.

also how am I pocketing you if I now think you're scum

uhh yeah this post scumpings hard wth
this is basically textbook manipulation VOTE: shelly

also nora's reads on menal and me scream newbtown. talking abt who "benefits most" from a hypocritical catfight that you started pings me as a really "not newbscum" thing to say.

Woah woah woah there buddy. You tell me again who started this "catfight"

look, y'all both escalated a fight over a really. weird. scumread on bm by you after his claim. am i saying you're scum? no. do i really trust your reads right now, and do i think your scumreads on menal and me are legitimate instead of simply trying to generate empty content? no, not really. you're looking really defensive to me right now, so while i'm staying with my light townlean, i'm not confident in it either.

wtf ur vote was on my earlier and suddenly I'm a light town lean
VOTE: Golden

did you not read my post - that you quoted - and my two posts before that, where I said you look like newbtown? what?

[TheGoldenParadox]

also omg the worst hiiiiiii duckie <3 such a long time and no see!!

[TheGoldenParadox]

it's ridiculously fun the effort to get pagetops is real

[TheGoldenParadox]

ico can we talk about this once i manage to get to the presentwhat's the non-townie logic in the first part?

'i scumread player x after reading the game'

also: 'i think the game is all spam and utterly useless'

what doesn't comply here?

noo <3 you're modding super well!

[TheGoldenParadox]

my fun fact is that i think both Ico and Noraa are town, and they're both voting TheGoldenParadox for what i think are bad reasons, but i think they've managed to hit scum anyway

scumreading Iconeum because i don't really see their logic on voting me as being town-motivated - my vote will stay where it is for now, but that will change if ico gets noticably scummier.

you're looking really defensive to me right now, so while i'm staying with my light townlean, i'm not confident in it either.

neither of these quotes feel like TGP is talking his reads as about actual opinions that he has, they feel like they are conscious choices that he is making, and the way he is threatening to upgrade them to scumreads to try to get the people voting him to back off is scummy as hell.

also, the progression from

rn i think noraa is just newbie town, but being confident in bm!scum within the first day doesn't really scream town; noraa will stay at a light townread.

to

also nora's reads on menal and me scream newbtown.

to

do i think your scumreads on menal and me are legitimate instead of simply trying to generate empty content? no, not really.

in the space of like half an hour makes absolutely no sense

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

was he just catching up on the game? if so, kinda figures his reads would evolve quickly.

i was to some extent, but those three reads are entirely self-consistent. i think noraa is newbtown, i'm not confident about that read so it's more of a lean, but their actual reads are not reads that i believe are helpful or incredibly legitimate. town, especially newbtown, can generate empty content as well as opposed to actual reads, and town can create fluff. i know i did that when i was newbtown.

neither of these quotes feel like TGP is talking his reads as about actual opinions that he has

...i don't know how the word 'about' managed to move a whole three places to the right in this sentence. "talking about his reads as", that should say.

you were re-reading the post later then eh? why?

VOTE: iamausername

i really don't like this vote, but i haven't played with BM and don't know if this is normal for them - if someone has, that would be cool to know. for now, that vote feels really... random to me in a game that is by now definitely out of RVS, especially for you, BM.

[TheGoldenParadox]

my fun fact is that i think both Ico and Noraa are town, and they're both voting TheGoldenParadox for what i think are bad reasons, but i think they've managed to hit scum anyway

scumreading Iconeum because i don't really see their logic on voting me as being town-motivated - my vote will stay where it is for now, but that will change if ico gets noticably scummier.

you're looking really defensive to me right now, so while i'm staying with my light townlean, i'm not confident in it either.

neither of these quotes feel like TGP is talking his reads as about actual opinions that he has, they feel like they are conscious choices that he is making, and the way he is threatening to upgrade them to scumreads to try to get the people voting him to back off is scummy as hell.

also, the progression from

rn i think noraa is just newbie town, but being confident in bm!scum within the first day doesn't really scream town; noraa will stay at a light townread.

to

also nora's reads on menal and me scream newbtown.

to

do i think your scumreads on menal and me are legitimate instead of simply trying to generate empty content? no, not really.

in the space of like half an hour makes absolutely no sense

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

was he just catching up on the game? if so, kinda figures his reads would evolve quickly.

i was to some extent, but those three reads are entirely self-consistent. i think noraa is newbtown, i'm not confident about that read so it's more of a lean, but their actual reads are not reads that i believe are helpful or incredibly legitimate. town, especially newbtown, can generate empty content as well as opposed to actual reads, and town can create fluff. i know i did that when i was newbtown.

neither of these quotes feel like TGP is talking his reads as about actual opinions that he has

...i don't know how the word 'about' managed to move a whole three places to the right in this sentence. "talking about his reads as", that should say.

you were re-reading the post later then eh? why?

VOTE: iamausername

i really don't like this vote, but

i haven't played with BM and don't know if this is normal for them

- if someone has, that would be cool to know. for now, that vote feels really... random to me in a game that is by now definitely out of RVS,

especially for you, BM

.

I don't like some things about you.

1. I don't like how you over-egg things with emotive language like "really" all the time, to try and bolster your weak positions. In reality it just makes it look like you are tailspinning out of control.
2. I don't like how you have singled me (and only me?) out twice, with very little justification, for 2 unrelated, random and not particularly credible things. The second is worse, and feels a little like scum just trying to buy consistency points by targetting the same player, but being fundamentally too lazy to come up with anything robust.
3. I don't like that in red above, you initially acknowledged you hadn't played with me, and had no idea what my normal play is. Then in blue above, you pretend you do know how I play to strengthen your argument.

I'm amused that you didn't just lap up my defence of you, as it's consistent with my hypothesis - you are trying to keep targetting me to avoid attention - it wouldn't do to simply agree with me, even if you actually did, you had to spin in a way which made it sound like I was wrong (which in isolation, actually makes you look worse anyway).

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Golden Paradox

I got one, ma.

lit, glad you think so. to clarify - "especially for you, BM" was because you specifically were in a fight with nora and had produced quite a bit of content. and no, i won't lap up your buddying attempts. sorry bout it.

[TheGoldenParadox]

those three reads are entirely self-consistent.

rn i think noraa is just newbie town, but being confident in bm!scum within the first day

doesn't really scream town

; noraa will stay at a light townread.

also nora's reads on menal and me

scream newbtown

.

are you sure about that

apologize - my mistake, i should have looked at that more closely. my read is basically "noraa is new, and their game is far closer to newbtown than newbscum. that being said, they are also doing things that i would generally consider scummy and antitown."

my fun fact is that i think both Ico and Noraa are town, and they're both voting TheGoldenParadox for what i think are bad reasons, but i think they've managed to hit scum anyway

scumreading Iconeum because i don't really see their logic on voting me as being town-motivated - my vote will stay where it is for now, but that will change if ico gets noticably scummier.

you're looking really defensive to me right now, so while i'm staying with my light townlean, i'm not confident in it either.

neither of these quotes feel like TGP is talking his reads as about actual opinions that he has, they feel like they are conscious choices that he is making, and the way he is threatening to upgrade them to scumreads to try to get the people voting him to back off is scummy as hell.

also, the progression from

rn i think noraa is just newbie town, but being confident in bm!scum within the first day doesn't really scream town; noraa will stay at a light townread.

to

also nora's reads on menal and me scream newbtown.

to

do i think your scumreads on menal and me are legitimate instead of simply trying to generate empty content? no, not really.

in the space of like half an hour makes absolutely no sense

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

was he just catching up on the game? if so, kinda figures his reads would evolve quickly.

i was to some extent, but those three reads are entirely self-consistent. i think noraa is newbtown, i'm not confident about that read so it's more of a lean, but their actual reads are not reads that i believe are helpful or incredibly legitimate. town, especially newbtown, can generate empty content as well as opposed to actual reads, and town can create fluff. i know i did that when i was newbtown.

neither of these quotes feel like TGP is talking his reads as about actual opinions that he has

...i don't know how the word 'about' managed to move a whole three places to the right in this sentence. "talking about his reads as", that should say.

you were re-reading the post later then eh? why?

VOTE: iamausername

i really don't like this vote, but

i haven't played with BM and don't know if this is normal for them

- if someone has, that would be cool to know. for now, that vote feels really... random to me in a game that is by now definitely out of RVS,

especially for you, BM

.

I don't like some things about you.

1. I don't like how you over-egg things with emotive language like "really" all the time, to try and bolster your weak positions. In reality it just makes it look like you are tailspinning out of control.
2. I don't like how you have singled me (and only me?) out twice, with very little justification, for 2 unrelated, random and not particularly credible things. The second is worse, and feels a little like scum just trying to buy consistency points by targetting the same player, but being fundamentally too lazy to come up with anything robust.
3. I don't like that in red above, you initially acknowledged you hadn't played with me, and had no idea what my normal play is. Then in blue above, you pretend you do know how I play to strengthen your argument.

I'm amused that you didn't just lap up my defence of you, as it's consistent with my hypothesis - you are trying to keep targetting me to avoid attention - it wouldn't do to simply agree with me, even if you actually did, you had to spin in a way which made it sound like I was wrong (which in isolation, actually makes you look worse anyway).

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Golden Paradox

I got one, ma.

lit, glad you think so. to clarify - "especially for you, BM" was because you specifically were in a fight with nora and had produced quite a bit of content. and no,

i won't lap up your buddying attempts

. sorry bout it.

It's too colloquial in my book. Just empty shade, with nothing backing it up. As is the red above. I definitely haven't buddied with you (you'd know it if I did, eh Bob? ). You're just limply clutching at straws to try and appear like you are scumhunting.

Reading your previous games was not hugely conclusive about your alignment. You tend to get eliminated Day 1 all the freakin' time, so not much data to work with. You seem to be slightly higher on effort as scum, which goes in your favour here. However you are also decidedly more aggressive as town - and here you've been pretty gentle which is more like your scumgame.

i do tend to get lynched d1 - glad you noticed! you are completely correct about your meta, and it's going to be completely unhelpful to you because the last real games i played were something like two years ago. best practice would probably be to meta me like a newbie w/ no games played, because information about my playstyle and personality from that long ago isn't going to help you here.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Love it! tone down the rudeness, outright hostility, and bullshit, and we'll get along just great.

[TheGoldenParadox]

noraa why the hell are you defending a confscum read there is no way you (or any of us for that matter) are good enough to confirm that someone is scum in the first two irl days
if bm was such strongly scum, we would all see the thing that you did. bm has not been voted by that many people, so either a newbie is correct on a "confirmed scum" read that not that many other people in the game see, or you're wrong. tell me which one you think is more likely.

[TheGoldenParadox]

right now i'm scumreading ico decently hard; 712 was just "hmmm i did also miss this" without further acknowledgment, and then ico continued to scumread me until he was called out by datisi on that
i feel like ico's trying to push a wagon on me based on scant evidence and then 772 and the 778-780 progression is just a weird way of distancing himself from a wagon on me and considering pushing for a lynch on low hanging fruit
that being said, shelly is looking worse and worse to me and feels like they're basically blindly following and supporting ico so i'm still inclined to keep my vote where it is

looking at a {shelly, ico, x} scumteam rn but i think that flipping shelly and observing their interactions will be super helpful. if shelly flips scum i'm confident in ico!scum as well and if shelly flips town i'd go to a TL on ico

[TheGoldenParadox]

*EXTRA EXTRAAAA*

PLACE 1 VOTE ON GP, GET 1 TOWNREAD*-/+ FOR FREE

*

not compatible with other offers

-

exchangeable for 1 townread at any time that is not xylo

/

non-refundeable

+

townread may not last

pagetop

@ico

: what information do you hope to gain out of a noraa flip? more specifically how would your reads change for d2 based on noraa flipping town or scum respectively

[TheGoldenParadox]

damn it i wasn't trying to quote 739 ignore that please

[TheGoldenParadox]

noraa is low hanging fruit

[TheGoldenParadox]

pushing low hanging fruit? me?

where?

noraa is low hanging fruit

I dont like either side of this argument. Ico def looks like they're trying to push some LHF however Golden quickly flipping sides(from BM to me) is really really sus. I'm in a terrible position rn as newbtown that is a likely candidate for a day 1 lim. Scums will see that and think rn is the perfect time to pocket. And the thing is I get in a lot of hot water as town but someone that really knows their way around ms can pretty easily shift attention and save a town!Noraa. Golden is striking me as that scum that's trying to pocket me to most likely get me to vote with them by defending me here. Except it definitely looks like they're failing to shift attention away.

Ico saying that they started off TRing and then shifted to a SR kinda just looks like a way to "backpedal" kinda when I flip green. Cuz it shows they were uncertain and if I get limmed day 1, it would just mean that most people agree that my play was scummy. And if that happens, Ico won't have to take any responsibility whatsoever. This is also seeming pretty scummy to me atm.

I think both seem scummy however I dont think they are scum together.

can we make it extremely clear that there was no "flipping sides" and if you read what you quoted you'd understand that it was a fairly reasonable and consistent transition from nora!scum to nora!newbtown so please stop attacking me along those lines without reading the posts you quote.

pedit: that's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. just based off probability, you should start with the assumption that someone is town because there is a 75% chance of them being so.

[TheGoldenParadox]

I have worked out what the Golden Paradox really is.

30 pages into a mini game, but having fewer posts than the Mod.

I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself!

Almost every game on this site that I remember playing has been under 100 pages total, with many under 50. I guess site meta has really shifted towards ridiculous post counts recently, or maybe it's just this PL? Anyways, I don't tend to post too much, but you can't disagree that I've posted substantive material, so I don't think noting my post count is really helpful here.

[TheGoldenParadox]

I have worked out what the Golden Paradox really is.

30 pages into a mini game, but having fewer posts than the Mod.

I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself!

Almost every game on this site that I remember playing has been under 100 pages total, with many under 50. I guess site meta has really shifted towards ridiculous post counts recently, or maybe it's just this PL? Anyways, I don't tend to post too much, but you can't disagree that I've posted substantive material, so I don't think noting my post count is really helpful here.

you're telling me! back in my day, 20 pages would be plenty!

I have no idea why you're trying to make a case that my post 839 was meant as a serious one, but I suspect it might take you another 50-100 pages to do so!

nah ahaha, didn't take it as serious, just making that note - we really have devolved to hyperposting, haven't we? oh well, at least it means more content, but a lot more garbage to sort through

[TheGoldenParadox]

zzz about to crash but quick thoughts

looking at a {shelly, ico, x} scumteam rn but i think that flipping shelly and observing their interactions will be super helpful. if shelly flips scum i'm confident in ico!scum as well and if shelly flips town i'd go to a TL on ico

why does town!shelly imply town!ico?

good question, and one that i spent a decent bit of time thinking about. i'll try to give a more logic based answer to this later, but i'm leaning towards ico and shelly being the same alignment just based off shelly's following of ico and ico's almost working with shelly. that being said, scum!ico might just be trying to pocket town!shelly, so it gives ico a handful of townpoints i'll need to see the shelly/ico interaction later today.
that being said, i'm almost confident on scum!shelly proving scum!ico and vice versa; i'm not the only one who thinks so?

[TheGoldenParadox]

that being said, i'm almost confident on scum!shelly proving scum!ico and vice versa; i'm not the only one who thinks so?

huh, my thoughts are pretty much opposite, i can see t/s (or maybe even t/t?) sooner than s/s (since kinda seems like a bold way for partners to interact?)

but also i'm scumreading shelly and townreading ico so maybe there's that

i guess it does seem bold, but with shelly being a newbie and all i can see scum!ico just telling shelly to follow his lead and it was taken too far? scum!shelly seems a lot like it implies scum!ico, and i don't see those slots being T/S. shelly/ico/bm seems absolutely like a viable scumteam to me.

[TheGoldenParadox]

okay, that's interesting. i didn't know that, but that makes the shelly/ico interaction super interesting.

would people prefer to run up a bunch of people asap, or to just no-lunch today? i'm getting frustrated we feel so far from a consensus.

not sure how serious this is, but an experienced player such as you should know that it's almost always -EV for town to no lynch, especially on the first day, and especially in a normal setup. if this is serious, it's giving strong scum vibes.

[TheGoldenParadox]

i don't know, either. that was a shitshow of a debate.

[TheGoldenParadox]

okay, that's interesting. i didn't know that, but that makes the shelly/ico interaction super interesting.

you think scum!ico and scum!shellyc are pocketing each other?

shelly/ico/bm seems absolutely like a viable scumteam to me.

that is literally our town block lol

I kinda like bussing as well. I have several completed games you can look at

I'm reevaluating this scumteam, but I'm also kinda seeing ico/shelly/bm playing a game where they pocket each other and form a strong townbloc quickly, precisely to throw us off guard and play counterintuitively. although y'all do make a good point that the pocketing is kinda blatant for scum; i guess this is something that can just be WIFOM'd the hell out of, and i'm reconsidering a scum!shelly implying confscum!ico.

everyone else is even more meh.

That interchange came before this ya? So why this?

Alonzo has caught my attention since then. He seems townie enough so I did an iso on him and decided that he prolly is my strongest TR so far. Again, this is really sloppy. I'll try to do better once the weekend starts

This literally reads like you were forced to go look at a slot and fabricate a read there,

because you were asked to do so

.

Not because you are interested in solving

.

thoughts?

noraa case in a nutshell:

-(counter?)tunneling on BM
-confbiasing, trying to make every post BM made into a scumtell
-not having other reads outside of BM
-not trying to have reads outside of BM
-after being forced into having a read, suddenly has a strong townread for reasons that previously had noraa 'all are null'
-increasingly bad posts in general

welcome to noraa

Noraa does a tunnel all game long on BM
Proceeds to have scumreads outside of that (see 613) that consist of meta on datisi that noraa does not have. It's literrally an assumption. And a scumread on GP because HE SWITCHED HIS VOTE FROM NORAA, TO NORAA'S TOP SCUMREAD

I will repeat. GP is scummy to noraa, because GP moved his vote away from noraa, onto noraa's SCUMREAD.

The alonzo townread. Just read the entire exchange with teacher as well. If that shit ain't faked, I don't know what is.

i'd switch Swifty for bob, got a gut town feel from her early postings and i've seen no reason to doubt it as yet, while bob has a major case of trying hard to look like he's doing something without actually doing anything.

i also wouldn't flip Noraa today, but i get where you're coming from in 753. i just feel like the possibility of her being scum still seems very unlikely to me.

can you explain why you wouldn’t flip noraa

in short, because i think Noraa is town and i would prefer not to execute town if we can avoid it.

in long, i think she's town because she doesn't seem to be motivated by self-preservation, like at all. what she mostly seems to be motivated by is a desire to prove that she is right. this is kind of a bad thing for a town player to be motivated by, and most of her reasoning is extremely flawed, to be sure, but i believe that she believes in it.

like, her progression from tunneling BM to joining the Golden wagon to going back to tunneling BM to finally acknowledging that her tunneling might be misguided does not feel like a scum progression at all. for me, the way she jumped off the Golden wagon as soon as BM's somewhat abrasive nature got her hackles up again allayed any concern i might have had that her Golden vote was scum opportunistically joining a popular wagon. the fact that she refused my repeated requests to vote for Golden yesterday, and in fact still hasn't done so even after backing down on BM also back that up.

i'm inclined to agree with iamauser in this case, and I think they captured it really well. While noraa is giving off a lot of traditionally scummy vibes, I'm also inclined to believe that most of that is based on her relative newness as opposed to her actually being scum. i'm really not that far out of my newbie phase myself (and i've regressed since my hiatus started) and i definitely understand how newbies can easily say things that are misinterpreted as scumtells. Noraa seems to me like pretty LHF, and ico's attacks on her feel like they're ignoring the other, more likely reason behind her oozing scumtells: her being a newbie, as opposed to her being scum.

@ico

the reason noraa is low hanging fruit is because she is a new player who has significant shortcomings and scumtells as a result of being a new player, and thus is an easy target to point out their scumtells and create a wagon on because they will have so many scumtells.

basically all of shelly's posts on page 38 scumping me hard. i have absolutely no idea what she's trying to accomplish here but it seems a lot like she's spinning in circles and not going anywhere. the entire taylor push is weird, 943 is unhelpful and unproductive, and just generally shelly is pinging me as scum who wants to create a townbloc and sell herself as town, either by pocketing actual town or working with other scum to wifom us. i'm happy with my vote on shelly, and i think shelly is a good d1 lynch here because they have quite a few interactions with almost everyone here.

[TheGoldenParadox]

I still think pretty strongly that shelly is scum and think it is important that we start coalescing around a flip there

you say the wagon is moving slowly, when much of the plist are scum reading me for apparently reasons that im swimming with the tide when ANYONE THAT PAYS ATTENTION TO MY META AT ALL can realise that this is my towngame

@shelly skimming through your completed towngames (notably, newbie 2025), as well as Newbie 2019 (a scumgame), it seems like you create fluff and posture more when you're scum than when you're town; your play this game is pinging me a lot more like the latter than the former. i'll do a more thorough metadive later, but you're looking scummier the more i meta you, so i don't think your meta is saving you here.

basically all of shelly's posts on page 38 scumping me hard. i have absolutely no idea what she's trying to accomplish here but it seems a lot like she's spinning in circles and not going anywhere. the entire taylor push is weird, 943 is unhelpful and unproductive, and just generally shelly is pinging me as scum who wants to create a townbloc and sell herself as town, either by pocketing actual town or working with other scum to wifom us. i'm happy with my vote on shelly, and i think shelly is a good d1 lynch here because they have quite a few interactions with almost everyone here.

wifom. does. not. fucking. exist

can you elaborate on spinning in circles, where do you expect me to go
why do you think Taylor push is weird

do you think creating town blocks are AI?

you’re filling up spaces with words to try and miselim me

sure flip me for info but remember scum are probably on-wagon now as im pretty miselimable as town

you attacked taylor for fence sitting and calling bm/nora tvt for a really long while until you realized it wasn't in your best interest to do so until essentially flip-flopping to 943 where you do exactly what you've been calling out

do you think creating town blocks are AI?

not to steal from TGP the chance to respond but: yes. trying to create townblocs is scum indicative

creating townblocs is generally helpful for town, but it's more helpful for scum if those townblocs are forced, which this looks like to me. moreover, scum infiltrating a townbloc is much better for scum than the townbloc is for town, so i'm inclined to agree with menalque here.

menal and bob have made some really good points above this

@ico

they're explaining the general case on shelly pretty well i know you wanted to see that

[TheGoldenParadox]

here's where i'm at in terms of reads at the moment:

Spoiler: without color

Menalque - townreading. well-thought-out pushes on shelly and looks like they're providing strong and genuine analysis throughout the game. looks like they're genuinely trying to be open minded but not to the point that it's wishy-washy; their analysis and interaction towards shelly looks genuine and seem town.

Datisi - townreading as well. several indicators that they are town; good questions to shelly, generally looks like they're trying to gamesolve, and their discussion with me on the shelly/ico felt legitimate and townmotivated on my end, and asking quite good questions with interactions with large amounts of the playerbase. datisi seems real here and i don't really see scum really trying to gamesolve and work to get information like this.

Noraa - townleaning. explained this throughout: see 1037, but essentially they ping me as newbie town.

bob3141 - townlean. bob's push on shelly looks legitimate, and generally bob is looking like their attempts to gamesolve are helpful and genuine. bob makes an extremely good point about shelly trying to change her reads to match the "gamestate", and i think they're pretty town for that. @bob do you plan to vote shelly in the near future?

iamausername - TL. 1028 pings me as a reasonable and helpful point to make and generally I think iamauser is being pretty helpful and gamesolvy. that being said, they townread Ico at the beginning for reading noraa as newbtown; now that ico's read has flipped, @iamausername what's your read on them at this point?

Tayl0r Swift - not sure. on one hand, their posts gutping me as... off? slightly weird and unnecessary. 998 made a good and concise point, and shelly who i think is scum is attacking them, so slight TL because i don't see shelly bussing this hard d1 but that will probably be reevaluated depending on how shelly flips.

teacher - also null; i want to see more from this slot because right now there's not a ton of content here.

bunno/piisirrational - null, haven't posted anything i could use to get a real read here.

Alonzo - extremely low effort so far, slight scumlean because they seem like they're trying to avoid attention and also not have a suspiciously low postcount

Iconeum - scumreading. i've elaborated on this in 799 and 1037. i also think that ico's pivot from me to noraa was quite. weird and pinged me as a fairly scummy thing to do.

Battle Mage - scumreading since near the start, and my read remains unchanged. bm seems confident in posting irrelevant and unhelpful fluff, and 385 does nothing to help with that, literally just twisting my words. the interaction you can see in 614. bm's pushes on me essentially boil down to "he won't let me defend him, and he uses emotive language, so he's scum"; the entire case on me that you've attempted to build is based on some really poor evidence and seems like it just exists to get an easy mislynch. not voting you because a bm flip isn't particularly helpful today (as your interactions are essentially focused on tunneling nora then me), and i'm scumreading shelly more.

shellyc - hard scumread, and my vote is on them. shelly has been tunneling, hypocritical of taylor for calling the nora/bm interaction tvt and then going back and doing the exact same thing, interacting poorly with reasonable questions from menalque, and generally feels like they've been backed into a corner and are desperately trying to lie and fake their way out of it. shelly's progressions scream fake, and generally their posts look like their intention isn't scumhunting; just posing.

Menalque - townreading. well-thought-out pushes on shelly and looks like they're providing strong and genuine analysis throughout the game. looks like they're genuinely trying to be open minded but not to the point that it's wishy-washy; their analysis and interaction towards shelly looks genuine and seem town.

Datisi - townreading as well. several indicators that they are town; good questions to shelly, generally looks like they're trying to gamesolve, and their discussion with me on the shelly/ico felt legitimate and townmotivated on my end, and asking quite good questions with interactions with large amounts of the playerbase. datisi seems real here and i don't really see scum really trying to gamesolve and work to get information like this.

Noraa - townleaning. explained this throughout: see 1037, but essentially they ping me as newbie town.

bob3141 - townlean. bob's push on shelly looks legitimate, and generally bob is looking like their attempts to gamesolve are helpful and genuine. bob makes an extremely good point about shelly trying to change her reads to match the "gamestate", and i think they're pretty town for that. @bob do you plan to vote shelly in the near future?

iamausername - TL. 1028 pings me as a reasonable and helpful point to make and generally I think iamauser is being pretty helpful and gamesolvy. that being said, they townread Ico at the beginning for reading noraa as newbtown; now that ico's read has flipped, @iamausername what's your read on them at this point?

Tayl0r Swift - not sure. on one hand, their posts gutping me as... off? slightly weird and unnecessary. 998 made a good and concise point, and shelly who i think is scum is attacking them, so slight TL because i don't see shelly bussing this hard d1 but that will probably be reevaluated depending on how shelly flips.

teacher - also null; i want to see more from this slot because right now there's not a ton of content here.

bunno/piisirrational - null, haven't posted anything i could use to get a real read here.

Alonzo - extremely low effort so far, slight scumlean because they seem like they're trying to avoid attention and also not have a suspiciously low postcount

Iconeum - scumreading. i've elaborated on this in 799 and 1037. i also think that ico's pivot from me to noraa was quite. weird and pinged me as a fairly scummy thing to do.

Battle Mage - scumreading since near the start, and my read remains unchanged. bm seems confident in posting irrelevant and unhelpful fluff, and 385 does nothing to help with that, literally just twisting my words. the interaction you can see in 614. bm's pushes on me essentially boil down to "he won't let me defend him, and he uses emotive language, so he's scum"; the entire case on me that you've attempted to build is based on some really poor evidence and seems like it just exists to get an easy mislynch. not voting you because a bm flip isn't particularly helpful today (as your interactions are essentially focused on tunneling nora then me), and i'm scumreading shelly more.

shellyc - hard scumread, and my vote is on them. shelly has been tunneling, hypocritical of taylor for calling the nora/bm interaction tvt and then going back and doing the exact same thing, interacting poorly with reasonable questions from menalque, and generally feels like they've been backed into a corner and are desperately trying to lie and fake their way out of it. shelly's progressions scream fake, and generally their posts look like their intention isn't scumhunting; just posing.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Now say something about my alignment @TGP

don't have much, post more substantively and maybe i will.

actually, noraa has reminded me -- TGP what do you make of icon's push on you?

it started on misunderstood and bad evidence (my supposed "flip-flop" on noraa), and continued with a poor line of reasoning until ico realized it was a poor push and went after noraa. it certainly increases my confidence in ico!scum.

[TheGoldenParadox]

I obvtown a lot (you would see this is you opened your mind to using meta for knowledge). And my opinion is the only opinion I really care about. Except possibly Bob in this game, who I admire deeply.

If I was scum, I wouldn't claim I'm town, as like a lot of the older players, I'm not a fan of lying. It's unethical and goes against my religion. I'm sure you'll make some incendiary remarks about that next, so go ahead if that's your style. If someone asks you directly if you're scum, and you say you're town when you were actually scum, I think that's pretty classless.

This is weird for more reasons than one. Regardless of your beliefs on lying in a social manipulation/deduction game, if you're doubling down on not lying about vanilla townie, did you claim VT to try not to die N1?

Your reasoning/posts are confusing to me but that does seem to make sense? I don't believe you just opened the thread and thought "eh, gonna claim", some kind of motivation is necessary.

Maybe you were feeling cute at that moment, wanted to do something unexpected, etc, why?

I was even starting to conspire you could be a PR that had fake claimed VT to not die, but I don't believe it's the case anymore with this post.

wait a second, thanks for pointing this post out.

@Battle Mage, are you scum?

if i'm understanding you correctly and if you don't say you're town when you were actually scum, that's tantamount to a trust tell. this game is literally one where you're required to lie. am i missing something?

[TheGoldenParadox]

how does this not break trust tell rules? what do you do when someone asks you if you're scum and you are?

[TheGoldenParadox]

how does this not break trust tell rules? what do you do when someone asks you if you're scum and you are?

Its not a trust tell as if im wrong on him and he is scum. Then he did lie about his alignment after all

a trust tell is something like a player saying they never self vote as scum. And then self vote at the start every town game

so let's run through the cases.

BM is town, and BM is telling the truth that he will not lie about his alignment. this is tatamount to a trust tell, because he is basically saying "if you ask me my alignment, i will not lie," and meaning it, which means that he will gamethrow as scum.

BM is town, and this "i think lying is classless" is completely and utterly pulled out of his ass. in this case, he is BLATANTLY lying to the town, and i don't see any reason town!bm does this. even here, saying that a trust tell exists breaks site rules.

BM is scum, and this is an outright lie.

From my understanding, BM here is either scum or breaking site rules. can someone explain if i've made a mistake in my reasoning?

[TheGoldenParadox]

how does this not break trust tell rules? what do you do when someone asks you if you're scum and you are?

Its not a trust tell as if im wrong on him and he is scum. Then he did lie about his alignment after all

a trust tell is something like a player saying they never self vote as scum. And then self vote at the start every town game

so let's run through the cases.

BM is town, and BM is telling the truth that he will not lie about his alignment. this is tatamount to a trust tell, because he is basically saying "if you ask me my alignment, i will not lie," and meaning it, which means that he will gamethrow as scum.

BM is town, and this "i think lying is classless" is completely and utterly pulled out of his ass. in this case, he is BLATANTLY lying to the town, and i don't see any reason town!bm does this. even here, saying that a trust tell exists breaks site rules.

BM is scum, and this is an outright lie.

From my understanding, BM here is either scum or breaking site rules. can someone explain if i've made a mistake in my reasoning?

I don't even know what a trust tell is, but accusing me of breaking site rules is very serious. If you're doing so as a tactic to try and get me elimmed, as it appears, that's particularly bad form, and presumably against the rules itself. I will consult with the Mod.

Golden, can you confirm whether you have reported me for a rule breach? And also which rule you believe I've broken?

not using it as a tactic to get you lynched, and i agree that's horribly bad form. trust tell wikipage i do not in fact know your alignment which means that i cannot know whether or not you're breaking the rules, and even if i did know your alignment i still couldn't be sure. i'm going to check with the mod and listmod, and i apologize if i've caused you distress.

[TheGoldenParadox]

oh; sorry, i didn't understand the whole eliminated thing but i get it now, my apologies. also apologies to bm if i made you uncomfortable, that was certainly not my intention and my mistake if i did, hope there are no personally hard feelings.

my read on BM will stay where it is. they've acted quite scummy this entire game, and considering they joined the site 13 years ago i don't think they get newbie points or can make any excuse along those lines. that being said, it's more of a scumlean after reevaluating the VT claim, which could be made by scum but seems more likely to come from town because it's locking scum out of a PR claim.

[TheGoldenParadox]

here's where i'm at in terms of reads at the moment:

Spoiler: without color

Menalque - townreading. well-thought-out pushes on shelly and looks like they're providing strong and genuine analysis throughout the game. looks like they're genuinely trying to be open minded but not to the point that it's wishy-washy; their analysis and interaction towards shelly looks genuine and seem town.

Datisi - townreading as well. several indicators that they are town; good questions to shelly, generally looks like they're trying to gamesolve, and their discussion with me on the shelly/ico felt legitimate and townmotivated on my end, and asking quite good questions with interactions with large amounts of the playerbase. datisi seems real here and i don't really see scum really trying to gamesolve and work to get information like this.

Noraa - townleaning. explained this throughout: see 1037, but essentially they ping me as newbie town.

bob3141 - townlean. bob's push on shelly looks legitimate, and generally bob is looking like their attempts to gamesolve are helpful and genuine. bob makes an extremely good point about shelly trying to change her reads to match the "gamestate", and i think they're pretty town for that. @bob do you plan to vote shelly in the near future?

iamausername - TL. 1028 pings me as a reasonable and helpful point to make and generally I think iamauser is being pretty helpful and gamesolvy. that being said, they townread Ico at the beginning for reading noraa as newbtown; now that ico's read has flipped, @iamausername what's your read on them at this point?

Tayl0r Swift - not sure. on one hand, their posts gutping me as... off? slightly weird and unnecessary. 998 made a good and concise point, and shelly who i think is scum is attacking them, so slight TL because i don't see shelly bussing this hard d1 but that will probably be reevaluated depending on how shelly flips.

teacher - also null; i want to see more from this slot because right now there's not a ton of content here.

bunno/piisirrational - null, haven't posted anything i could use to get a real read here.

Alonzo - extremely low effort so far, slight scumlean because they seem like they're trying to avoid attention and also not have a suspiciously low postcount

Iconeum - scumreading. i've elaborated on this in 799 and 1037. i also think that ico's pivot from me to noraa was quite. weird and pinged me as a fairly scummy thing to do.

Battle Mage - scumreading since near the start, and my read remains unchanged. bm seems confident in posting irrelevant and unhelpful fluff, and 385 does nothing to help with that, literally just twisting my words. the interaction you can see in 614. bm's pushes on me essentially boil down to "he won't let me defend him, and he uses emotive language, so he's scum"; the entire case on me that you've attempted to build is based on some really poor evidence and seems like it just exists to get an easy mislynch. not voting you because a bm flip isn't particularly helpful today (as your interactions are essentially focused on tunneling nora then me), and i'm scumreading shelly more.

shellyc - hard scumread, and my vote is on them. shelly has been tunneling, hypocritical of taylor for calling the nora/bm interaction tvt and then going back and doing the exact same thing, interacting poorly with reasonable questions from menalque, and generally feels like they've been backed into a corner and are desperately trying to lie and fake their way out of it. shelly's progressions scream fake, and generally their posts look like their intention isn't scumhunting; just posing.

Menalque - townreading. well-thought-out pushes on shelly and looks like they're providing strong and genuine analysis throughout the game. looks like they're genuinely trying to be open minded but not to the point that it's wishy-washy; their analysis and interaction towards shelly looks genuine and seem town.

Datisi - townreading as well. several indicators that they are town; good questions to shelly, generally looks like they're trying to gamesolve, and their discussion with me on the shelly/ico felt legitimate and townmotivated on my end, and asking quite good questions with interactions with large amounts of the playerbase. datisi seems real here and i don't really see scum really trying to gamesolve and work to get information like this.

Noraa - townleaning. explained this throughout: see 1037, but essentially they ping me as newbie town.

bob3141 - townlean. bob's push on shelly looks legitimate, and generally bob is looking like their attempts to gamesolve are helpful and genuine. bob makes an extremely good point about shelly trying to change her reads to match the "gamestate", and i think they're pretty town for that. @bob do you plan to vote shelly in the near future?

iamausername - TL. 1028 pings me as a reasonable and helpful point to make and generally I think iamauser is being pretty helpful and gamesolvy. that being said, they townread Ico at the beginning for reading noraa as newbtown; now that ico's read has flipped, @iamausername what's your read on them at this point?

Tayl0r Swift - not sure. on one hand, their posts gutping me as... off? slightly weird and unnecessary. 998 made a good and concise point, and shelly who i think is scum is attacking them, so slight TL because i don't see shelly bussing this hard d1 but that will probably be reevaluated depending on how shelly flips.

teacher - also null; i want to see more from this slot because right now there's not a ton of content here.

bunno/piisirrational - null, haven't posted anything i could use to get a real read here.

Alonzo - extremely low effort so far, slight scumlean because they seem like they're trying to avoid attention and also not have a suspiciously low postcount

Iconeum - scumreading. i've elaborated on this in 799 and 1037. i also think that ico's pivot from me to noraa was quite. weird and pinged me as a fairly scummy thing to do.

Battle Mage - scumreading since near the start, and my read remains unchanged. bm seems confident in posting irrelevant and unhelpful fluff, and 385 does nothing to help with that, literally just twisting my words. the interaction you can see in 614. bm's pushes on me essentially boil down to "he won't let me defend him, and he uses emotive language, so he's scum"; the entire case on me that you've attempted to build is based on some really poor evidence and seems like it just exists to get an easy mislynch. not voting you because a bm flip isn't particularly helpful today (as your interactions are essentially focused on tunneling nora then me), and i'm scumreading shelly more.

shellyc - hard scumread, and my vote is on them. shelly has been tunneling, hypocritical of taylor for calling the nora/bm interaction tvt and then going back and doing the exact same thing, interacting poorly with reasonable questions from menalque, and generally feels like they've been backed into a corner and are desperately trying to lie and fake their way out of it. shelly's progressions scream fake, and generally their posts look like their intention isn't scumhunting; just posing.

hard time believing much in this

noraa has been tunneling a LOT more then shellyc, and has had much worse read switches then anyone in this game - yet you townread noraa and scumread others

Taylor is been around the thread since yesterday night

0 new reads and developments

bails out of shelly wagon on L-1

says that "doesn't know" what to do with me pushing her

datisi soft-defending taylor it's been a long time now if anyone didn't notice, when people were suspecting taylor before datisi was like "yeah but there's scummier slots"

If Taylor is mafia consider putting datisi in the pool of untrustworthy people.

shellyc having no new reads over the course of 1 irl day is troubling for you, but noraa having exactly 1 (one) read for the entire game is fine?

noraa only recently started scumreading me (pure omgus), and had a forced townread because teacher was pulling their arm

but you townread that?

ico where are you at on noraa because your reads seem to be flip flopping like hell can you tell me where you're at here
generally tho i really am not liking ico's game here it's very much just pushing people on little or disproved reasons, being explained to that that's bad, and jumping off those wagons i'm really seeing scum!ico here trying to distance from shelly after it's clear shelly is very likely to be limmed

my scumteam here is {ico,shelly,BM/Bunno} and out of those three shelly is the scummiest and is the best d1 flip, although ico is looking worse and worse to me as this game goes on
ico's interactions with bunno gutping me as S/S. generally they feel very much posed like the two are trying to distance but avoid actually bussing and i don't like it

[TheGoldenParadox]

here's where i'm at in terms of reads at the moment:

Spoiler: without color

Menalque - townreading. well-thought-out pushes on shelly and looks like they're providing strong and genuine analysis throughout the game. looks like they're genuinely trying to be open minded but not to the point that it's wishy-washy; their analysis and interaction towards shelly looks genuine and seem town.

Datisi - townreading as well. several indicators that they are town; good questions to shelly, generally looks like they're trying to gamesolve, and their discussion with me on the shelly/ico felt legitimate and townmotivated on my end, and asking quite good questions with interactions with large amounts of the playerbase. datisi seems real here and i don't really see scum really trying to gamesolve and work to get information like this.

Noraa - townleaning. explained this throughout: see 1037, but essentially they ping me as newbie town.

bob3141 - townlean. bob's push on shelly looks legitimate, and generally bob is looking like their attempts to gamesolve are helpful and genuine. bob makes an extremely good point about shelly trying to change her reads to match the "gamestate", and i think they're pretty town for that. @bob do you plan to vote shelly in the near future?

iamausername - TL. 1028 pings me as a reasonable and helpful point to make and generally I think iamauser is being pretty helpful and gamesolvy. that being said, they townread Ico at the beginning for reading noraa as newbtown; now that ico's read has flipped, @iamausername what's your read on them at this point?

Tayl0r Swift - not sure. on one hand, their posts gutping me as... off? slightly weird and unnecessary. 998 made a good and concise point, and shelly who i think is scum is attacking them, so slight TL because i don't see shelly bussing this hard d1 but that will probably be reevaluated depending on how shelly flips.

teacher - also null; i want to see more from this slot because right now there's not a ton of content here.

bunno/piisirrational - null, haven't posted anything i could use to get a real read here.

Alonzo - extremely low effort so far, slight scumlean because they seem like they're trying to avoid attention and also not have a suspiciously low postcount

Iconeum - scumreading. i've elaborated on this in 799 and 1037. i also think that ico's pivot from me to noraa was quite. weird and pinged me as a fairly scummy thing to do.

Battle Mage - scumreading since near the start, and my read remains unchanged. bm seems confident in posting irrelevant and unhelpful fluff, and 385 does nothing to help with that, literally just twisting my words. the interaction you can see in 614. bm's pushes on me essentially boil down to "he won't let me defend him, and he uses emotive language, so he's scum"; the entire case on me that you've attempted to build is based on some really poor evidence and seems like it just exists to get an easy mislynch. not voting you because a bm flip isn't particularly helpful today (as your interactions are essentially focused on tunneling nora then me), and i'm scumreading shelly more.

shellyc - hard scumread, and my vote is on them. shelly has been tunneling, hypocritical of taylor for calling the nora/bm interaction tvt and then going back and doing the exact same thing, interacting poorly with reasonable questions from menalque, and generally feels like they've been backed into a corner and are desperately trying to lie and fake their way out of it. shelly's progressions scream fake, and generally their posts look like their intention isn't scumhunting; just posing.

Menalque - townreading. well-thought-out pushes on shelly and looks like they're providing strong and genuine analysis throughout the game. looks like they're genuinely trying to be open minded but not to the point that it's wishy-washy; their analysis and interaction towards shelly looks genuine and seem town.

Datisi - townreading as well. several indicators that they are town; good questions to shelly, generally looks like they're trying to gamesolve, and their discussion with me on the shelly/ico felt legitimate and townmotivated on my end, and asking quite good questions with interactions with large amounts of the playerbase. datisi seems real here and i don't really see scum really trying to gamesolve and work to get information like this.

Noraa - townleaning. explained this throughout: see 1037, but essentially they ping me as newbie town.

bob3141 - townlean. bob's push on shelly looks legitimate, and generally bob is looking like their attempts to gamesolve are helpful and genuine. bob makes an extremely good point about shelly trying to change her reads to match the "gamestate", and i think they're pretty town for that. @bob do you plan to vote shelly in the near future?

iamausername - TL. 1028 pings me as a reasonable and helpful point to make and generally I think iamauser is being pretty helpful and gamesolvy. that being said, they townread Ico at the beginning for reading noraa as newbtown; now that ico's read has flipped, @iamausername what's your read on them at this point?

Tayl0r Swift - not sure. on one hand, their posts gutping me as... off? slightly weird and unnecessary. 998 made a good and concise point, and shelly who i think is scum is attacking them, so slight TL because i don't see shelly bussing this hard d1 but that will probably be reevaluated depending on how shelly flips.

teacher - also null; i want to see more from this slot because right now there's not a ton of content here.

bunno/piisirrational - null, haven't posted anything i could use to get a real read here.

Alonzo - extremely low effort so far, slight scumlean because they seem like they're trying to avoid attention and also not have a suspiciously low postcount

Iconeum - scumreading. i've elaborated on this in 799 and 1037. i also think that ico's pivot from me to noraa was quite. weird and pinged me as a fairly scummy thing to do.

Battle Mage - scumreading since near the start, and my read remains unchanged. bm seems confident in posting irrelevant and unhelpful fluff, and 385 does nothing to help with that, literally just twisting my words. the interaction you can see in 614. bm's pushes on me essentially boil down to "he won't let me defend him, and he uses emotive language, so he's scum"; the entire case on me that you've attempted to build is based on some really poor evidence and seems like it just exists to get an easy mislynch. not voting you because a bm flip isn't particularly helpful today (as your interactions are essentially focused on tunneling nora then me), and i'm scumreading shelly more.

shellyc - hard scumread, and my vote is on them. shelly has been tunneling, hypocritical of taylor for calling the nora/bm interaction tvt and then going back and doing the exact same thing, interacting poorly with reasonable questions from menalque, and generally feels like they've been backed into a corner and are desperately trying to lie and fake their way out of it. shelly's progressions scream fake, and generally their posts look like their intention isn't scumhunting; just posing.

hard time believing much in this

noraa has been tunneling a LOT more then shellyc, and has had much worse read switches then anyone in this game - yet you townread noraa and scumread others

Taylor is been around the thread since yesterday night

0 new reads and developments

bails out of shelly wagon on L-1

says that "doesn't know" what to do with me pushing her

datisi soft-defending taylor it's been a long time now if anyone didn't notice, when people were suspecting taylor before datisi was like "yeah but there's scummier slots"

If Taylor is mafia consider putting datisi in the pool of untrustworthy people.

shellyc having no new reads over the course of 1 irl day is troubling for you, but noraa having exactly 1 (one) read for the entire game is fine?

noraa only recently started scumreading me (pure omgus), and had a forced townread because teacher was pulling their arm

but you townread that?

ico where are you at on noraa because your reads seem to be flip flopping like hell can you tell me where you're at here
generally tho i really am not liking ico's game here it's very much just pushing people on little or disproved reasons, being explained to that that's bad, and jumping off those wagons i'm really seeing scum!ico here trying to distance from shelly after it's clear shelly is very likely to be limmed

my scumteam here is {ico,shelly,BM/Bunno} and out of those three shelly is the scummiest and is the best d1 flip, although ico is looking worse and worse to me as this game goes on
ico's interactions with bunno gutping me as S/S. generally they feel very much posed like the two are trying to distance but avoid actually bussing and i don't like it

[TheGoldenParadox]

ico where are you at on noraa because your reads seem to be flip flopping like hell can you tell me where you're at here

my stance on noraa is, and always has been, very clear

if you read my posts, you should have no problem understanding where and how exactly i'm reading the slot

you say flip flopping, i say it has evolved over the course of the game

'flip flopping like hell' -> over the course of this game i had a towny vibe, a scumread, and then based on most recent posts, a townread

you went from tunneling to townreading based on 1347 and only that it's ridiculous

[TheGoldenParadox]

case on teacher is literally nonexistent it's just "teacher!scum provides a decent amount of information" when their interaction actually shows otherwise and like. they're a light scumlean if anything

townreading menal very hard rn i don't see this amount of lynch effort coming from scum trying to lynch a townie

[TheGoldenParadox]

alright. in general i think we are in need of some flips, we're just kind of going in circles and achieving very little.

the group of {teacher/Taylor/Alonzo} have all been pretty much non-entities throughout, not really making any pushes or taking any strong stances, and i would be extremely surprised if there was no scum in this group. i'd rank them as teacher>Taylor>>>>Alonzo in terms of who is most likely scum here.

i'm also still extremely down for executing bob, who continues to seem like obvious scum to me and apparently no one else but i don't feel like i'm going to get any traction there.

i am no longer down for executing GoldenParadox. his posting has improved dramatically in recent times and i'm not surprised that the wagon disappeared.

also i really liked Bunno's entrance. feel like scum replacing in midway through D1 would be vastly more likely to focus on existing wagons than to try to generate something new in the way that Bunno did, and he made some compelling points re: Taylor.

a full reads list looks something like:

OBVTOWNS
Noraa
Battle Mage
Bunno

PROBTOWN
Iconeum
shellyc
Menalque

I HAVE SOME CONCERNS
TheGoldenParadox
Datisi
Alonzo

HERE BE SCUM
Tayl0r Swift
teacher
bob3141

VOTE: teacher

work with me here. let's ignore the information from the flip itself because you're saying you actually pretty strongly believe in teacher!scum. can you explain your case on teacher!scum disregarding any information you'd get from a potential teacher!scum flip?

[TheGoldenParadox]

can i please please request that both bm and menal consolidate all their points from the past hour into one post each because this hyperposting is completely unhelpful

[TheGoldenParadox]

in game answer is what i already said + god forbid i tried to use my vote as an additional way to read shelly

out of game answer is out of some sorta principle? like what you're doing is not helping anyone and it's making the game not pleasant and i don't wanna bow down to it?

like i'm not saying BM isn't appearing provocative at times but like

so many pedits, @mena

ah it's all good brotha, just a bit of ego-posting on both sides. it does mean if teacher flips scum, especially scum PR, i'd look at Menal tomorrow after all.

you'd see menal attacking your teacher wagon this hard as a reasonable thing for scum to do to defend a scum PR? it feels like if teacher is scum and menal is scum then menal would be using one of a thousand subtler ways to break up the teacher wagon than this blatant and all out fight among you two

pedit: we're not elimming shelly because she claimed vt but it looks very suspiciously like both you and ico are trying to run up as many wagons as possible and rolefish, which is looking quite icky to me
who's like "oh they claimed vt we're not elimming them today" like what the hell that's blatant rolefishing

[TheGoldenParadox]

we're not liming her BECAUSE she claimed VT

we're liming her because VT wasn't a good enough reason to NOT lim her after how scummy she'd been up to that point

^^ this and bm your deflection isn't helping the case that you and shelly are not scum together

calling the scumteam today: {shelly/ico/bm}. this is my most viable scumteam right now and the weird flip flopping and posturing that both ico and bm have been doing with regards to the shelly wagon make me really strongly think that they are all working together

[TheGoldenParadox]

in game answer is what i already said + god forbid i tried to use my vote as an additional way to read shelly

out of game answer is out of some sorta principle? like what you're doing is not helping anyone and it's making the game not pleasant and i don't wanna bow down to it?

like i'm not saying BM isn't appearing provocative at times but like

so many pedits, @mena

ah it's all good brotha, just a bit of ego-posting on both sides. it does mean if teacher flips scum, especially scum PR, i'd look at Menal tomorrow after all.

you'd see menal attacking your teacher wagon this hard as a reasonable thing for scum to do to defend a scum PR? it feels like if teacher is scum and menal is scum then menal would be using one of a thousand subtler ways to break up the teacher wagon than this blatant and all out fight among you two

pedit: we're not elimming shelly because she claimed vt but it looks very suspiciously like both you and ico are trying to run up as many wagons as possible and rolefish, which is looking quite icky to me
who's like "oh they claimed vt we're not elimming them today" like what the hell that's blatant rolefishing

i don't know mate - it's possible.

my previous assumption was teacher-scum means menal-town but this defence is hard for me to justify rationally. in fairness to menal, i'm sure he was expecting everyone to just roll over instantly and wasn't aiming to be this conspicuous

disagree, it seems to me like menal was absolutely prepared to fight this

[TheGoldenParadox]

I feel like TGP is the only person being reasonable rn in this entire PL

are you trying to pocket me?

jokes aside, i think we all need to take a break and i think datisi's being quite reasonable as well at this point. i don't think this post count race is helping either case and i'd really appreciate it if we could get a self imposed time limit on posting from both bm and menal

pedit: yeah this is a quite good point i don't condone ending the day immediately but the push to dissolve the shelly wagon feels forced.

double pedit: scum have an information advantage at the start, and roleclaiming in balanced setups usually benefits the side with the information advantage. let's not try to run up half the PL and force them to claim please.

[TheGoldenParadox]

I feel like TGP is the only person being reasonable rn in this entire PL

are you trying to pocket me?

jokes aside, i think we all need to take a break and i think datisi's being quite reasonable as well at this point. i don't think this post count race is helping either case and i'd really appreciate it if we could get a self imposed time limit on posting from both bm and menal

pedit: yeah this is a quite good point i don't condone ending the day immediately but the push to dissolve the shelly wagon feels forced.

double pedit: scum have an information advantage at the start, and roleclaiming in balanced setups usually benefits the side with the information advantage. let's not try to run up half the PL and force them to claim please.

man, the shelly wagon was dead in the water anyway, i dont understand why anyone is precious over it. I also dont understand your stance on Ico - he was an advocate of consolidating wagons as i recall, which meant shelly would have a 50% chance of being elimmed?

and i wish you'd told me the double pedit point pre-game...i wouldnt have claimed on the first page! damnit!

noraa vote shelly because she's literally scum the amount of evidence that has been given (if you iso menal and to a lesser extent me) to support that claim is overwhelming

[TheGoldenParadox]

Ico isn't getting clowned today obviously and I'm not positive shelly is the scum in that pool

how do you say it's obvious ico is not getting limmed when there are four days left and the way it's going we're going to run out more days until we finally decide on who to lim

[TheGoldenParadox]

i'm cringing at the way TGP is sheeping Menalque right now. like verbatim.

want to provide examples because i disagree

pedit: taylor vote for shelly please

[TheGoldenParadox]

Last ten pages was just Mena tunneling shelly for ??? reasons, Golden boy sheeping this for ??? reasons, BM coming in and provoking everyone for ??? reasons, Datisi nicely telling everyone to stfu, and me just being here

and nora clearly not actually reading cases for ??? reasons

[TheGoldenParadox]

Case on Teacher

ISO'd teacher.

Scumlean. Little output, and what's there is largely spam and fluff. Mainly focussed on easy stuff he can commentate on from the fringes without getting involved i.e. is it good to claim, should i get an avi, sometimes pointing out potential logical failings/inconsistencies without really getting excited. Frugal with the vote. Awkward jokes. Is TvS on me v Noraa, but not willing to drive an elim on either. he has suspicions, but reasoning is weak for a seemingly smart dude. picks off the LHF but doesnt do anything with it. Doesn't really seem like legit solving as his fundamental opinions don't change. claims to think I'm scum but sheeps me on Ico. No scumhunting passion. Starts with Taylor as an easy target, never diverts and jumps on as 3rd vote when taylor wagon gets momentum.

teacher scum-flip means:

Datisi and Menalque are both town (because he seemed genuinely worried about them townbinning each other)
Ico town - teacher's nominal legit townread

Vote: teacher

you BEGIN your case on teacher with the word "scumlean" and then call teacher out for what can be boiled down to "low effort and engagement" and you get precisely three interactions on a scumflip on a scumlean of all things

do you understand that this really isn't a strong case for others to vote teacher and you should maybe back off?

pedit: not even going to get annoyed by this but you're making this a pissing contest and you need to stop @bm

[TheGoldenParadox]

Last ten pages was just Mena tunneling shelly for ??? reasons, Golden boy sheeping this for ??? reasons, BM coming in and provoking everyone for ??? reasons, Datisi nicely telling everyone to stfu, and me just being here

and nora clearly not actually reading cases for ??? reasons

nah I read them. The case on shelly and the case one teacher r pretty trash

noraa work with me here what is a problem with the case on shelly other than "that's her playstyle" because we've pretty clearly established it goes beyond that

[TheGoldenParadox]

VOTE: noraa

ugh menal please go back on shelly nora is annoying but it's a policy lim at that point

[TheGoldenParadox]

noraa why are you being so obnoxious you're literally not even a newbie you have more total posts than i do and i was on a hiatus for like two years

at this point it's just "poor play" not "being a newbie" and i don't like it at all

[TheGoldenParadox]

work with me here. let's ignore the information from the flip itself because you're saying you actually pretty strongly believe in teacher!scum. can you explain your case on teacher!scum disregarding any information you'd get from a potential teacher!scum flip?

teacher exemplifies the scum sitting back and letting town tear each other apart. he is obviously keeping up with the game enough to be aware of who the major wagons are, and his thoughts on them always seem to be "i am aware of the case but i don't agree", and yet there is absolutely zero effort to push any alternatives.

he's also stated he thinks BM/Noraa is TvS without taking a stance on which is which or showing any particular effort to sort them

just in general there is little to no sign that he is doing anything to either a) push executions on players he thinks are scum or b) figure out who is scum.

i really like this post for a couple reasons. it provides orders of magnitude better of a case on teacher than bm's previous case, and it feels really genuine from user's part. there are a million ways they could have simply deflected or been like "look at bm's post" and this provided a good explanation of their own reasoning. i appreciate it.

i'm not hating the case on teacher right now, but shelly seems so obviously scum to me that my vote will stay where it is.

@bm @menal are the votes on noraa serious and if so can you please explain them because i got a strong vibe of "nora is newbtown" especially from you menal?

[TheGoldenParadox]

in other news i'm reevaluating bm right now but it looks more and more to me like this entire exchange between bm and menal was tvt OR svs, and i don't believe it's the latter because menal is a pretty solid towered
menal for reasons i've outlined earlier and bm because i don't see this entire thing as a scum progression at all jumping onto noraa feels like a compromise rather than opportunistic wagon hopping

[TheGoldenParadox]

VOTE: noraa

ugh menal please go back on shelly nora is annoying but it's a policy lim at that point

nah, I think it's actually super super scummy that noraa is so avoidant here

I think her reasons for avoiding it are weak ("it's just her play style") and I think her saying "likely one scum in shelly/icon, but I don't think icon is happening today" combined with not voting there is scummy -- like if you really believe that you solve another slot by flipping one, you flip the one you can get and then work off that information. I think noraa has

excellent

scum equity with shelly and even aside from that I don't think her reluctance to be involved here is from town (if she's not partners, I think she's just afraid of limping onto a town wagon late esp with BM calling her out for that so publicly)

and if she does flip scum, she gets me the cred I need to do shelly tomorrow

you've sold me on this case. although i got newbtown vibes from noraa she isn't in fact a newbie and her post quality is deteriorating hard as she's getting pushed

pedit: @bm actually, to an extent, you're right; i was annoyed and let subjective feelings towards you get in the way of evaluating the case, and your case upon rereading was actually good, albeit a bit difficult to digest. i will say that i agreed most strongly with the first part of iamausername's case, which has parts that you don't have explicitly in your own, so that's why i said i appreciated the case so much. that being said, the order of magnitudes comment was rude and uncalled for and i apologize.

[TheGoldenParadox]

menalque, you're saying you'll quickhammer anyone at l-1 today?

[TheGoldenParadox]

TGP can you highlight some of the posts that helped you reverse your read on BM please

there are so many that I don't think I can specifically point out a few. the fight between bm and menal really got me to a point where i stopped seeing scum!bm as a likely thing because of how hard he was fighting and then his compromise with menal at the end. i don't necessarily think i directly reversed my read on bm, but i pretty strongly believe that either the bm/menal fight was strong tvt where they were having open and loud discourse, or staged svs, and i think that the former is much more likely than the latter, especially because I TR menal very hard. i really don't see that interaction as being TvS; i feel like the scum in that pair would be strongly incentivized to simply drop it and them compromising on noraa felt very unlikely to be TvS to me.

[TheGoldenParadox]

My read'll come some time tonight or tomorrow. We'll see.

noraa i'm just about done with your posts like this. give me ONE actual reason why you're town other than i'M a nEwBiE lHf because the line is annoying and i could see voting you as a policy lim just off your post quality deteriorating like this.

is it just me or are nora's reads literally just copying their reads on her?

[TheGoldenParadox]

i posted a readslist; wanna explain to me how those are all sheeped?

i am fine w a nora elim today. i want to see the votecount because i don't know what the votes are atm but even outside of the obvious policy lim noraa is getting worse and worse.

[TheGoldenParadox]

hmm ok, because we are 85 pages deep already, and I don't want loads more spam to obfuscate things, or to waste lots of time, I'm claiming:

I'm the Cop. I Investigated Taylor last night. Taylor is scum.

VOTE: Taylor Swift

pedit: bunno's final comment on you may largely have gone unnoticed. this pings me as complete bullshit.

[TheGoldenParadox]

sorry, the pedit was to taylor. i'm inclined to agree with BM here: lim taylor and move on.

[TheGoldenParadox]

VOTE: teacher

here's where I'm at right now.
a NK on BM makes absolutely no sense. he was a guaranteed mislim d3. so the only a NK on him would have been reasonable is if BM's reads were so accurate that him espousing them and providing greater clarity on them d3 was not worth the mislim. bm clearly espoused his read on teacher, but had enough fluff and jumps onto noraa and such that teacher might have avoided suspicion by killing bm as opposed to letting him speak today. that hammer SCREAMED opportunistic scum looking to end the day by stifling discussion.

scum is {teacher, noraa, ??} i'm confident in teacher!scum, and you should be too.

[TheGoldenParadox]

sorry, let me clarify that: a NK on BM makes no sense unless scum contains teacher (where it makes some sense) or contains both teacher and noraa (where it makes a lot of sense).

[TheGoldenParadox]

bm was gambiting. look at 2124

[TheGoldenParadox]

UNVOTE:
don't worry, my vote will be back on teacher in time. for now, though, nora's speculation could be correct, and we shouldn't lim before giving prs a chance to claim.

if you are a PR and have a guilty or incriminating result, claim now.

real thoughts on a massclaim / setup spec will come later, but if we lim incorrectly tomorrow will be lylo. we should tread quite carefully.

[TheGoldenParadox]

And just based on odds of 4 wagons. 2 on confirmed town, one on nora that heavily looked liek noob town after me and others questioned her. One left alive , so i think the odds are prety good

yea, this is TGP's scumbuddy. He ignores the D1 TGP wagon entirely, despite reputation for long-scale wagon analysis. Votes with TGP on me early D3 to start momentum. Stays outside of game conversations. Is paired with TGP on most serious wagons but there is little to no direct discussion between the slots of the similar thinking.

VOTE: teacher i think it's pretty clear that we have no investigative claims atm so this is the wagon to go. the d1 tgp wagon fizzled out quite quickly and by the end of d1 the majority of the pl had me as town. you can't say he's "paired with me on most serious wagons" when I've only really ever been a part of two wagons both of which led to elimination, and the latter was just "who's online", so really one serious, major wagon which was on shelly. definitely not counting bob out as scum (i can visualize a teacher/noraa/bob pairing).

teacher and noraa are caught scum that are being incredibly defensive atm. hindsight is 20/20, but i wish i'd joined bm and menal on the noraa wagon.

[TheGoldenParadox]

oh to respond to 2201; BM is not a vig kill, that's ridiculous. occam's razor completely precludes it. if there is anything more than a 1-shot vig, then they should have vigged noraa n1. in the case that it is a 1-shot vigilante, they would have had to NOT use their vig n1, use their only shot n2 to kill bm, AND the mafia kill would have to have been blocked in some way. explain to me how that's at all more likely than just "teacher!scum killed bm to shut him up"

[TheGoldenParadox]

ico work with me where you at here on teacher and noraa

[TheGoldenParadox]

why is the 1v1 between teacher and TGP a thing again?

i'm confident in teacher!scum based off of the d1 teacher push and NKA. teacher is saying that they have a similar level of confidence in me!scum, which is ridiculous because they're scum trying to get a mislim before lylo.

[TheGoldenParadox]

ebwop: let me rephrase that, scum looking to get a mislim to create lylo.

not sure on claiming, probably a good idea. should we popcorn?

[TheGoldenParadox]

mkay let's popcorn

i'm a

vanilla townie, @teacher please claim next

[TheGoldenParadox]

why ask teacher specifically

because i'm popcorning and teacher is scum.

[TheGoldenParadox]

wow and if teacher was scum do u really think he'd be so dumb as to claim a scum role?

since you haven't massclaimed before, the wiki article on it is helpful. tone is hard to convey over the internet, so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, but please don't be sarcastic and hostile when you don't know about something; take it as an opportunity to learn instead.

Welp the consensus is to claim ig.
Im vt as well.
im a bit concerned that two people claimed vt before me tho bc I dont believe there are that many vts....

one PR and two VTs have already been flipped. normal games have 3 PRs i believe, so we have 2 PRs left, 3 scum, and 4 VTs. makes sense that the latter would claim first, but we can expect to have as many as 7 vt claims because it's an easy claim for scum to make.

[TheGoldenParadox]

I dont see the point in asking someone u think is scum to claim rn. I mean ik what massclaim is and if ur curious, they'll claim soon anyways. Why specifically ask them? it just seems so unnecessary and personally, if I was very confident in a SR, I wouldn't give two shits what they claimed. I would just be like ur scumscumscumscumscumscumscumscumscumscum NOW DIE.

except then we realize that all ur SRs and reads are really weak and that leads to another prob

might be a sign of poor townplay on your part, not mine. deathtunnelling is generally considered bad and unhelpful.
anyways, i was trying to popcorn claim but clearly it didn't work.

if you have not already claimed, do so in your next post or you're automatically scum.

[TheGoldenParadox]

sorry about that, i wrote up a long post and thought it had sent.

@ico is your claim serious

[TheGoldenParadox]

Like somehow I’m in the townier slots for most people here despite having done like... nothing? More or less? Since D1, and having spent a significant chunk of that day forcing through a guillo on town lol

don't think anyone has done much d2 or d3 except for my push on teacher which you should really join
and it's precisely how hard you forced through that lim that makes you town

side note: really nora please stop talking when you clearly don't know anything about how normal games are designed

unless teacher's pr is some sort of fucking god town power role, bob is basically locktown here

[TheGoldenParadox]

ico unless that's serious which i'd be quite surprised
please get sober and claim your actual role

[TheGoldenParadox]

so you're just a town neighbor?

[TheGoldenParadox]

holy shit, i'm so sorry: i hope he's okay and i hope his students are okay as well.

[TheGoldenParadox]

professor can you claim please

[TheGoldenParadox]

can we appreciate for a second that teacher was replaced with professor mafia

Spoiler:

upgrades, people! upgrades.

[TheGoldenParadox]

VOTE: teacher
VOTE: teacher
VOTE: teacher

[TheGoldenParadox]

oh oops i guess i should replace that with VOTE: professor mafia shouldn't i

[TheGoldenParadox]

Alonzo VT
TheGoldenParadox VT
Iconeum neighbor
iamausername VT
Datisi VT
professor VT
bob3141 follower
Noraa VT
Menalque neighbor

bob, ico, and mena are confirmed town. every scum has claimed VT.

[TheGoldenParadox]

unless scum has serious negative utility or a town pr isn't claiming, bob ico and mena are mechanically clear. correct me if i'm wrong, but the former seems very not in line with site meta right now, and the latter means that said town pr, unless they're playing an incredibly good gambit, is fucking over the town.

i'm leaning towards the scumteam being fairly new or inexperienced because an entire scumteam claiming vt seems like quite a poor move on their part. @menal, are you truly not able to see noraa as scum here?

anyways, limming prof seems like the move here.

[TheGoldenParadox]

am i the only one here that thinks ico/mena/bob are mechanically confirmed and the entire scumteam is vanilla and claimed vt

because if you disagree please give me a reasonable alternate explanation

[TheGoldenParadox]

Hello friends

Info / compromise flips come from scum incredibly often from what I've seen. When I flip VT you all will need to re-evaluate. Remember to get username.

if you flip vt, we lose the game.

[TheGoldenParadox]

oh rip sorry i forgot we aren't at elo, massclaims tend to happen there and my brain slipped. apologies.
you're all good dats; any thoughts on noraa?

[TheGoldenParadox]

can you explain how menal would be scum setup wise

[TheGoldenParadox]

one? scumreading noraa pretty hard, very sure in teacher!scum based on reads and NKA.

menal bob and ico are mechanically town

scum in {datisi, iaaun, alonzo}: tl on dats, he looked quite solvey d1 but hasn't done much today. let me reread on you and iaaun, but rn townleaning you and scumleaning iaaun. that being said, i want a professor scumfiip before i start drawing associations

[TheGoldenParadox]

so i guess two scum could have posted on the page

[TheGoldenParadox]

first

[TheGoldenParadox]

@ico why did menal not claim his full role

[TheGoldenParadox]

if i'm looking at this correctly, ico should claim mena's full results from all nights as well as his own n1 and n2 protections.

mena feels like a... weird kill considering that town power is such that the team should be all goons. i'd think the mena (as opposed to ico or bob) kill implies ico!scum, but mechanically i don't see any possible way for ico to be scum, so he and bob can stay in the locktown pile.

limming from the vt claims today, so {noraa/iaaun/alonzo/datisi/paradox} is my scum ---> town lynchpool atm. i absolutely see the replacement as an excuse for noraa to jump on "scumreading" the teacher slot.

[TheGoldenParadox]

it's not lylo it's 5v2

but what the hell noraa

[TheGoldenParadox]

okay if anyone else has any fucking thing to claim they better do it now

otherwise i will trust noraa on the grounds that town power isn't enough otherwise

[TheGoldenParadox]

i think the most likely scenario here is that n2 kill was docced and n3 kill was mena

goddamn it noraa why didn't you claim yesterday

[TheGoldenParadox]

in a shitton of cases (like this one!) vigilantes are zero negative utility for town and "wasting" a vig shot is very different than wasting a cop shot

if you claimed yesterday more rational people would have told you to not kill menal out of all people

i need a drink @ico please get in here and help

[TheGoldenParadox]

ebwop: zero or negative utility, and by cop shot i meant *insert pr here*

[TheGoldenParadox]

shooting me would have been a poor move (because the good play would have been to just claim d3), but shooting menal, essentially an IC, feels really quite icky.

[TheGoldenParadox]

and by icky, i mean why the hell would you do it as town.

[TheGoldenParadox]

does someone with more experience than me w/ current site meta want to tell me if this setup is balanced - and reasonable as the claims stand? i think scum power and town power are quite reasonably aligned here if the rest of the mafia are all goons or possible, but i'm confused that SS (not sure abt schadd) would approve a setup with a novice 3-shot vig. a one-shot or odd/even night vig is swingy enough, concentrating a ton of town power in a novice 3-shot vig which is functionally going to be similar to an otherwise ungated novice vigilante feels weird in this setup.

not sure. i hate the vigilante role except when it's heavily gated, maybe that's just personal.

[TheGoldenParadox]

well role assignment is random in normals so would they allow the role in this setup

it seems like it makes the game ridiculously swingy

[TheGoldenParadox]

^^ this tbh

[TheGoldenParadox]

gated means any modifiers that hurt usage of the role (night specific, novice, whatever). i'd think loyal vig would be a pretty annoying gate but disloyal vig is ridiculously powerful

[TheGoldenParadox]

goddamn it why can't anyone look at the setup and see that there is no way this game is balanced if any of ico/noraa/bob is scum

yes i agree noraa one of the town powers MUST be scum because there are TOO MANY vt claims so the intelligent thing to do is to SHOOT all our town prs because one must be scum! mhm! i agree.

[TheGoldenParadox]

if you didn't know what you were doing why wouldn't you just holster why shoot conftown

[TheGoldenParadox]

ico when you get back and can high effort this game i need you to help me poe

bob - follower
ico - doctor neighbor
noraa - vig

iaaun - vt/maf
tgp - vt
dats - vt/maf
alonzo - vt/maf


shelly - vt
bunno - vt
taylor - vt
bm - cop
teacher - maf pt cop
menal - neighbor

yeah, this setup looks balanced. mafia could have a couple of goons or some weak PRs but it looks like this is pretty reasonable

@mod would you consider doing anything but taking the last answer submitted by nightfall; eg. would you prevent a vig from changing their target again if they had already changed it several times

i'd assume i'm essentially confirmed town because barring any shenanigans ico protected me n2 while nora shot bm so the mafia kill was on me

is this game solved? last three scum are in dats/alonzo/iaaun and we have one mislim before lylo: VOTE: iaaun

my proposed night plan is to vig alonzo, follow datisi, protect anyone

[TheGoldenParadox]

what the-

[TheGoldenParadox]

we're past reads at this point it doesn't matter if i want to believe your claim or not because

barring a claim by alonzo datisi or iaaun

your claim has to be true

[TheGoldenParadox]

Alonzo my claim is real but even if looking from an outsiders perspective I cannot see scum claiming like this.

we are past personal or subjective opinion you must be town if there are no other tprs

[TheGoldenParadox]

i don't care about your story that's something that's surprising to me i assumed that NAR automatically defaults to "last action the player submitted"

[TheGoldenParadox]

where am i throwing shade at you i'm attempting to solve this game

i don't believe claims just because "scum doesn't claim it" i believe claims because mechanically they make sense and here, in a normal game, it does

[TheGoldenParadox]

no if noraa is scum here then either this setup is WILDLY unbalanced, scum has ridiculous negative utility, or someone is not claiming.

[TheGoldenParadox]

what shade am i throwing i-

[TheGoldenParadox]

noraa you said you didn't believe for a second scum killed bm.

either scum shot BM or i'm confirmed town. shooting me is playing against wincon. do you understand that?

[TheGoldenParadox]

i'm asking if the moderator would do that, before you said it was a "joke". please calm down, seriously.

[TheGoldenParadox]

@mod would you consider doing anything but taking the last answer submitted by nightfall; eg. would you prevent a vig from changing their target again if they had already changed it several times

I will always resolve the last valid action a player sends me

right, right, that's what I assumed. okay. this raises noraa's scum equity, but not by enough that she can't remain townbinned for today.

[TheGoldenParadox]

lim iaaun, vig alonzo, follow datisi, protect anyone
@ico/noraa/bob/dats we okay with this?

[TheGoldenParadox]

HOW IS NORAA SCUM ALONZO

[TheGoldenParadox]

noraa if you think i'm scum that means:
scum!me killed BM night 2, when i could have gotten the easiest mislim in the world on them n3
i then turned around and started a wagon on teacher, apparently my scumbuddy, that went all the way to elimination

how is this in the universe of "oh okay this makes sense"

[TheGoldenParadox]

Golden is flipping around too much. I want to vig this slot if there's no objections

i'm done until ico gets here. this isn't helping anyone.

[TheGoldenParadox]

it doesn't matter who the scum are if we have a townbloc of {ico, noraa, bob, me}

lim iaaun, shoot alonzo, follow datisi, and if we haven't won by that point lim datisi as well.

[TheGoldenParadox]

this game has produced a lot of clears i definitely want to setup analyze postgame

[TheGoldenParadox]

he's a follower

[TheGoldenParadox]

basically scum would be way too powerful if we have bob as scum

unless i'm significantly underestimating the town power a vig supposedly gives

[TheGoldenParadox]

there you are ico thank god

UNVOTE: i'm going to give ico and bob a chance to catch up because we need to figure out night actions

[TheGoldenParadox]

ico and bob are town because i don't see anything else from the setup

plus menalque, who is town and quite a good player, was in a neighborhood with ico and said he was town

[TheGoldenParadox]

Mechanically icos not safe before you hot me with that.

explain. unless you're claiming a pr.

[TheGoldenParadox]

im in no neighbourhood

and scum havign pt cop leaves me thinking that ico cant be scum. if ico was scum then scum would already know the neighbourhood. so why have pt cop just for bm role. Over just a straight vannilla cop.

this logic would have been really nice for noraa to have before she shot menal.

[TheGoldenParadox]

i'm a little busy until the weekend, so if you guys could possibly not kill me until then that would be great. i want to re-examine D1 properly with all the info we have now.

i mean, i'd appreciate not dying at all, but i really don't think that's going to happen, so.

i think i was probably right in the first place about bob, the only reason i stopped thinking he was scum is that there wasn't enough town power without him, but given that both Noraa and Mena were apparently lying when they claimed VT, that's no longer the case.

and look:

Combined Mailman Vanilla Cop
Odd-Night Complex Traffic Analyst
Role Watcher Neighbor
Ascetic Indecisive Doctor Neighbor
Novice 3-Shot Vigilante
Follower

is it just me, or is one of these things not like the others?

bob/Datisi i think.

i'm sure no one will listen to me before i'm dead, but please give me a chance to leave you something substantial, and pay attention to it once i'm gone. that's all i ask.

this is... actually a decent point.
the problem here is that i agree with bob that this setup is already scum sided, and it would be even more so if bob were scum. do you disagree with that?

[TheGoldenParadox]

iaaun is probably scum, and likely the lim for today. that being said, i'm reconsidering my confirmed town on bob.

right now {me, ico, noraa} are mechanically confirmed. let me figure out bob.

[TheGoldenParadox]

iaaun is probably scum, and likely the lim for today. that being said, i'm reconsidering my confirmed town on bob.

right now {me, ico, noraa} are mechanically confirmed. let me figure out bob.

how am I mechanically confirmed?

you're a vig. town power wouldn't be enough without you.

[TheGoldenParadox]

scum is in {datisi, alonzo, iaaun}

we execute iaaun, vig alonzo, and if we haven't won by that point execute datisi

noraa remember when we agreed that i was mechanically town

[TheGoldenParadox]

reads don't matter this game is mechanically solved unless a town pr is lying

VOTE: iaaun

shoot alonzo tonight.

[TheGoldenParadox]

if mafia block the vig shot either through a roleblocker or doctor (which it doesn't seem they have, due to setup) then we simply exe alonzo tomorrow.

[TheGoldenParadox]

because it doesn't matter if they catch up? the game is mechanically solved. when they catch up, they'll join me in voting iaaun.

hm. if iaaun is town, noraa might want to holster because they could possibly be correct about bob.

[TheGoldenParadox]

if mafia block the vig shot either through a roleblocker or doctor (which it doesn't seem they have, due to setup) then we simply exe alonzo tomorrow.

Define simply?

we exe alonzo tomorrow. it should be simple.


look guys, it's 5v2 with 4 confirmeds. there is no point in having subjective opinion here.

[TheGoldenParadox]

except i am not scum and i know how to read ico and i'm trying to stop y'all from throwing

One thing i have found in my many games with you is that you have never misread ico. Was one the biggest factors in your last town game that let me solve it day 2. Even if scum did get me lynched


So you agree with me that ico is town. Whihc of teh two of teh possible reason for menal nk based on the fact that ico protected him do you think is more liekly. That he was blocked and nora is scum or that scum and nora double teamed menal?

did dats suggest option 1? i think option 2 is the obvious one here.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Use and Balance
The Voyeur is one of the weakest investigative roles around. Its use is mainly down to being able to confirm or contradict claims at a later point in the game -- if a potential Cop claim claims to have investigated a player whom the Voyeur targeted the same Night, the Voyeur is in position to confirm or deny this claim.

Similarly, the Voyeur may be able to confirm the existence of certain types of claims (such as a protective role), without knowing who that role belongs to.

As a scum role, Voyeur can be used to determine what power roles are in the game, and perhaps by considering who would have that power role used on them identify who the power role is. This is still paltry compared to the result that could have been gotten via a Tracker, Watcher or Role Cop, though.

--mafiawiki

[TheGoldenParadox]

i honestly didn't care, it could have either been alonzo or dats but alonzo looked scummier

vig shouldn't target the same person as follower

[TheGoldenParadox]

this game has stagnated to all hell

ico i need your thoughts on night actions and then we can lim iaaun

[TheGoldenParadox]

maybe noraa should holster if iaaun flips green

it could theoretically be alonzo/bob

[TheGoldenParadox]

yeah no i really think alonzo is scum here

that hammer was interesting but feels only mildly ai, he's been subtly trying to manipulate people into the limpool all day

[TheGoldenParadox]

iaaun/alonzo looks like the solve imo

but i'm still not 1000% confident in bob being mechanically clear here

if iaaun flips green nora should probably holster so we can look at bob carefully tomorrow

[TheGoldenParadox]

^^ everything in that post is correct and it makes me lean town much harder on datisi

@noraa you definitely need to holster in the very unlikely event of iaaun!town

and if user is town shoot alonzo because alonzo has been trying this entire day to bring confirmed and pseudoconfirmed innocents into the pool

[TheGoldenParadox]

tbh noraa won't be the nightkill in any case; she's proved helpful for scum. it'll almost definitely be ico because he can't self-target

[TheGoldenParadox]

^^ everything in that post is correct and it makes me lean town much harder on datisi

@noraa you definitely need to holster in the very unlikely event of iaaun!town

and if user is town shoot alonzo because alonzo has been trying this entire day to bring confirmed and pseudoconfirmed innocents into the pool

you managed to directly clash urself in one post

sorry *if user is scum shoot alonzo

[TheGoldenParadox]

scum had role for (among other things) finding a neighbourhood
why would scum have a role for finding a neighbourhood if a scum is already in a hood (and therefore knows about it)
hence ico and menal town

both role watcher and vanilla cop are very weak investigative roles, role watcher can maaaaybe confirm an existence of a different PR while a vanilla cop can just confirm if someone is a PR or not (and also send letters which is not really +EV for town)
follower/role watcher/vigilante/doc actually give a pretty interesting dynamic
and we also don't know what the other two scum are

VERY ++++ point. If ur scum, smh ur making my conftowns more and more conftown.

yeah dats seems quite town here

[TheGoldenParadox]

no. I just won a scum game yesterday by being protown

uh

[TheGoldenParadox]

btw why should I holster if user is town? that means scum team is datisi/alonzo

there is a small but nonzero chance that it's actually alonzo/bob or datisi/bob

shooting would deny town the chance to sort and solve day 5

[TheGoldenParadox]

I just wonder why no follow up from scum on TGP in the knowledge of icos protect order?

ICo has varying degrees of equity depending on your stance

tries to put ico back into the scumpool

ICo self protects , noraa shoots ICO, Bob follows tgp?

proposes a plan in full knowledge of a scum roleblocker that would massively backfire if scum just roleblocker ico

Are you willing to lose and hold your hands up and say ' damn, scum! Noraa played me like a fiddle' or not @ tho?

HOW IS NORAA SCUM ALONZO

Noraas iso reads ' stay the fuck out of my way or I shoot you' to me

tries to put noraa back into the limpool

Answer me this @tgp why is Ico town?

Because you don't want a doc mislynch/ vig, or something deeper?

Mechanically icos not safe before you hot me with that.

desperately tries, after it is been very clearly established that ico is town, to get ico back into poe

alonzo is seeming very antitown here

[TheGoldenParadox]

if its not in that little pool, its honestly you not bob

if iaaun is town, i'm inclined to believe that he might be correct on scum!bob and that he's not lying about his experience of game balancing

[TheGoldenParadox]

shoot alonzo

[TheGoldenParadox]

if alonzo is scum we win

if alonzo is town, then (almost definitely) ico and alonzo are dead by daybreak and it's 3v1 mylo with {me, bob, noraa, datisi} and at that point we go with datisi

[TheGoldenParadox]

datisi is +town so if you don't shoot alonzo holstering is better

[TheGoldenParadox]

[unv][/unv]
hm.

[TheGoldenParadox]

those tags don't work anymore? dang.

UNVOTE:

i'm going to reread.

[TheGoldenParadox]

i think alonzo is scum here.

[TheGoldenParadox]

VOTE: alonzo

[TheGoldenParadox]

better lim today.

[TheGoldenParadox]

i agree! let's hit scum. scum is you.

[TheGoldenParadox]

can everyone join me on alonzo so we can end the day please

unless anyone has something important to say, we're simply dragging out the game for no reason

[TheGoldenParadox]

UNVOTE:

looking through every one of bob's completed games and making a spreadsheet of the word fellow. this is looking damning.

[TheGoldenParadox]

oh i absolutely know about that

let me finish looking at all your games though

[TheGoldenParadox]

i looked at 20 games. 16 town, 4 mafia. Here are the results:

bob has used the word "fellow" at least once in every one of his mafia games, and in exactly three of his town games. in one of his mafia games, he used it twice, and in another game, he used it 11 times.

this is... interesting, to say the least. he's used it four times this game.

game	alignment	"fellow" usage
mini 2071	town	0
large 219	mafia	1
mini 2092	town	0
mini 2102	town	0
mini 2106	mafia	1
mini 2113	town	0
mini 2114	mafia	2
mini 2119	town	0
mini 2121	town	0
mini 2122	town	1
large 223	town	0
mini 2132	town	1
mini 2128	town	1
large 227	town	0
mini 2146	town	0
mini 2157	town	0
large 228	town	0
mini 2153	town	0
mini 2148	mafia	11
mini 2163	town	0

[TheGoldenParadox]

So why Bob out of nowhere? Especially following a case made by a to SR of yours? @TGP

because bob is the only one i'm waffling on deciding between putting in the poe pool or not. i think that this is enough evidence before a reread to not give him conftown status.
one second, let me look at game balance again.

[TheGoldenParadox]

would this setup be balanced

ascetic indecisive doctor neighbor
role watcher neighbor
novice 3-shot vigilante
mailman vanilla cop
vt x6

vs

mafia vanilla cop and pt cop (if i understand correctly, the complex modifier gives a distinction between vanilla and non-vanilla roles)
mafia ???
mafia ???

[TheGoldenParadox]

@ico @datisi really need y'all here rn

would that be balanced or would town need a follower hm


anyways i'm 100% confident alonzo is scum here, but i'm going to keep my vote off right now because night actions

[TheGoldenParadox]

i'm like, reading along, and trying to make sense of what is happening

the response to 3112 would be: i don't think so??? i think the issue there is, you have nice roles of ascetic indecisive doc and 3-shot novice vig. they're gated, but they're still PRs of ~decent strength.

then you have vanillacop/mailman and rolewatcher neighbour, which sound cool, but are like "here's your fun toy, if you manage to get one useful result with it, consider yourself lucky"

like against 3 goons, i could maaaaybe see this setup as being scumsided, but not unpassable. with a scum weird vanilla/TA hybrid flipped, i don't think it's enough?

wdym because of night actions?

i meant so prs could coordinate their night actions.
i think both SS and schadd would be willing to defy meta a tiny bit and make the setup somewhat scumsided. neighbors are usually nai, but the neighbors in this game are both town prs and by nature fairly easily confirmable to each other and thus... maybe kind of turn into masons? which would make the setup pretty balanced. without bob!follower. hm.

ico will definitely be targeted tonight, so to be completely honest there's absolutely no reason nora should shoot in any case. i think we should lim alonzo today and go from there, but i would also be okay with an iaaun flip.

[TheGoldenParadox]

no real scum negative utility roles can be in a normal, right? i would guess the greatest extent it would be possible is what we got with the teacher flip, where the neighbors became basically masons.

there's no way the setup could have been balanced around the neighbors turning into masons unless EVERY member of the scumteam was an odd night traffic analyst, which seems so defiant of current site meta i don't see it being the case at all.

vanilla cop is a weak neapolitan, which is a slightly weaker gunsmith, which is a weaker cop. eyeballing it i'd call a vanilla cop as maybe 40-50% the worth of a cop, nowhere near a real pr. at best, it generates two or three results which is good for countering scum fakeclaims but poor for basically anything else. mailman is a weaker neighborizer, which i believe has generally been considered almost if not completely useless to town.

i don't see it. i don't see a world where bob is scum here. i think dats was right when he said the fellow thing was almost if not completely nai.

sigh. VOTE: alonzo this is scum, but i'm completely lost as to who the third member of the scumteam is. i'll reread teacher's interactions.

[TheGoldenParadox]

come on dats you ninja'ed me lmao

[TheGoldenParadox]

if you're town, attacking me is not the way to go when i'm pseudoconfirmed.

let's go with alonzo today, noraa can holster tonight while bob tracks one of {user/dats}

[TheGoldenParadox]

eyeballing it i'd call a vanilla cop as maybe 40-50% the worth of a cop, nowhere near a real pr.

my only objection to your post would be that i would put a town vanilla cop at like 15-25% of an full town cop but i don't think that's actually *that* relevant right now

i'll defer to you there because you're more experienced than i am but if this is an outright scum lie that i'm just not smart enough to see i'm going to be quite annoyed

[TheGoldenParadox]

dats, nora, iaaun, bob, want to join me on alonzo?

[TheGoldenParadox]

is there a guaranteed or near-guaranteed win here that doesn't rely on bob!town or alonzo!scum
because i was happy limming alonzo, iaaun, and datisi in whatever order but now i feel like that's not necessarily optimal play in this case

[TheGoldenParadox]

The hyperparanoid 101 is...

Odd night neighbourhood detection officer is weak in a setup with only one neighbourhood, but strong in a setup with a s Vs t neighbourhood.

what the heck? traffic analyst for scum would be useless in a SvT neighborhood

[TheGoldenParadox]

alonzo, are you informed by any chance?

[TheGoldenParadox]

a town cop

whose guilty flipped green

, remember?

there is no way scum would kill bm n2. none. zero.

[TheGoldenParadox]

like. maybe i could fathom it in a world where teacher and noraa were both scum. but noraa is town. so no!

[TheGoldenParadox]

i don't know if you don't know or are just trying to fake not knowing as a "townslip", but the claim was d3. we quicklimmed d2, remember?

[TheGoldenParadox]

i'm done, alonzo. you're so obviously scum my eyes hurt.

[TheGoldenParadox]

"they shot vt over doc claim? they're not too bright"

[TheGoldenParadox]

noraa what purpose would exist for you to shoot

scum's hitting ico tonight. anything else would be playing against wincon. which means that if you shoot, you're denying the town a majority lim in favor of you shooting who you'd want. you shooting loses us a mislim and unless you think you're better than the majority of town, you should holster.

[TheGoldenParadox]

if we lim town today, and you hit town, we lose.

the odds of you hitting town are considerably higher than the odds of us losing 5p lylo.

[TheGoldenParadox]

if we lim scum, it'll be 5v1 going into the night. if you holster, it's 4v1, and if you shoot, it's either 3v1 or we win. the thing is that you shooting doesn't benefit town in any way and takes away an elimination from the town.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Some of Alonzo's recent posts have been a bit .... scummy

they really have, alonzo is pinging me quite hard

[TheGoldenParadox]

There are numerous minor (but nonstandard) variations of the Doctor, e.g. some Doctors can self-target,

some can stop more than one kill in the same Night

, and some variant Doctors will inform the Doctor and/or their target if a protection stops a kill.

These variations are not Normal

, and should typically be mentioned in the player's Role PM so that they do not come to false conclusions about how their role works.

there's no way scum have a full roleblocker in this setup if a townie is not lying through their teeth.

[TheGoldenParadox]

if others can verify what datisi is saying then sure, maybe noraa should holster 1 time

ok.

upon red flip, bob (allegedly) turns into a cop.

with the solve being 1 scum in {datisi/alonzo/bob}, bob will guaranteed create a 1v1 tomorrow. either by guiltying someone, of by innoing someone and entering a 1v1 with the other person.

if noraa shoot a town, we have 4 alive tomorrow. no time to kill both people in a 1v1.

if noraa holster, we have 5

4v1

alive. enough time to kill both people in 1v1.

if one is town, it's 3p lylo where we just instalim the last person

bolded is my own addition
yep, this is correct. noraa needs to holster tonight no matter what.

[TheGoldenParadox]

datisi linked the posts where the explanation is

if you holster on a red flip we have a GUARANTEED win (even if bob is scum)
whereas if you shoot, we do not

[TheGoldenParadox]

scum won't no kill. if scum no kills, you can shoot n5 and it will have the same effect.

why in the world would scum no kill?

[TheGoldenParadox]

and even if they no kill upon a red flip, it's still a guaranteed town win.

[TheGoldenParadox]

noraa, you shooting upon a red flip is the only chance for a hypothetical bob!scum to win.

[TheGoldenParadox]

pedit: goddammit tgp lmao

hey, just getting your due for 3133

[TheGoldenParadox]

you won't die, noraa. it makes no sense, because ico could theoretically protect either you or bob. scum will kill ico, and ico should be on whoever the hell he wants because in the tiny chance where it matters he can wifom them.

UNVOTE:
ico we good with me hammering?

[TheGoldenParadox]

oml iaaun stop noraa is not shooting anyone

[TheGoldenParadox]

guess the consensus is that

noraa holsters. ico, protect whoever you'd like. bob follows alonzo.

VOTE: username

hammer.