Mini Normal 2173 | Bending | Game Over

[VP Baltar]

First!

VOTE: goofball

I'm so happy you're here!

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Dkkoba

Assuming this is serious, yes?

[VP Baltar]

I have a day-vig, so should I just shoot Taylor?

I could be convinced

[VP Baltar]

Im off of work and im free tonight since i dont work tomorrow morning so ill be watching thread

Where's Anders amirite!?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE: good point

What was a good point?

[VP Baltar]

Sorry, didn’t mean to quote NDMath there. I was referring to geraintm.

I'm down for this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: geraintm


*Pedit: I don't think anyone is anywhere near in danger of a yeet. Hmmm

[VP Baltar]

Just vote geraintm. We got scum here y'all

[VP Baltar]

mmmmmmmmmm

i dont like this at all

OK. Koba is town.

DGB is playing that DGB town game too. (But DGB is also inscrutable, so...)

[VP Baltar]

taylor - townish
jackson - townish
shelly - townish
DGB - scummish
gerain - scummish
baltar - scummish
mark - townish

Let's say infinity is scum. Probably one bus on this list (geraintm). Other partner could be Marky Mark or I could possibly see andres.

I do think andres' town play is pretty hard to fake (based on the recent game I playe with him), so I expect that will become clearer over time.

[VP Baltar]

are you saying you played a game against andre where he was scum?

Nah. I just feel relatively confident I'll be able to figure out whether he is being genuine over time.

It's not so much meta as it is I found his town play to have a certain verve that would be quite challenging to replicate as scum. Possible? Maybe. But I do think it'd be clear if it was inauthentic.

[VP Baltar]

meta is trash

Hmm interesting

You got a response to this Shelly?

[VP Baltar]

It's times like this I just try to imagine what is going on in the scum PT.

[VP Baltar]

Man, if scum don't have daytalk, shelly gotta be SWEATING

[VP Baltar]

It's times like this I just try to imagine what is going on in the scum PT.

Maybe you don't have to imagine...

Apparently I don't!

ZZzzzzzzzz

[VP Baltar]

DGB if ur gonna shade how about u back that up with a vote?

Maybe it is justifying the RVS vote haha

[VP Baltar]

I am away for 11 hours and 5 pages of worthless posts to read through on a weekend when I have limited access.
This is going to be a fun game....

I've played with a few people in this game before. If they could be bothered they could explain to the rest my limited posts so far. I'll rather let people talk themselves into a frenzy.

Can we just skip to day 2 already though?

Coming in a little hit there don't you think?

[VP Baltar]

*a little hot

[VP Baltar]

Hot how?

You basically said you were annoyed people were posting too much and offered nothing of substance yourself. Not sure why you're acting angry about people posting.

Plus, there ARE things to comment on. Shelly for instance

[VP Baltar]

Alright I’m just going to put this out there. @Koba I’m not getting Townyvibes from you. I really didn’t like your attempt at a derp clear with the Scum not having Day Talk. In fact, anybody who made a direct reference to that should be under some suspicion (I don’t really have a read on VPB but I also noticed a reference there from him). Until it was highlighted, I didn’t even check whether this was the case. Yes, I initially assumed that Scum could speak privately during the day. But the Scum are far more likely to have wanted to communicate and strategize early, only to realize that they couldn’t (as included in the rules). So anybody who realized this probably felt it would be something they could use to clear themselves by making a point out of it. Paranoid? Perhaps. But something to think about.

Very confused as to why you're assuming this is one alignment or the other. Most people would assume daytalk (as you did), so that doesn't seem scummy to me.

Scum could try to town point off it, which is why it is NAI

[VP Baltar]

vp if ur pocketing me im allowing it... for now.

I figure one of us is eating the NK tonight after we yeet a scum, so I'm leaving any Koba paranoia I have for later, in the rare circumstance that doesn't happen.

[VP Baltar]

andres, what's your read on DGB at the moment?

[VP Baltar]

this is a big turn around on shelly over some meta argument. ngl

[VP Baltar]

Gonna let infiinity/shelly/jackson keep scumming it up in this thread. One is probably dumb town though. because geraintm is still scum.

Whoever it was that asked me for a reason to vote geraintm is a very likely buddy. Might have been shelly, but I'm semi-drunk and too lazy too go back.

[VP Baltar]

oh and VP shading all the active slots is ++scumpoints

Lol

[VP Baltar]

I encourage the wagon on me because it can only be scum driven. Shelly's buddies should get in on this!

Vote VP! See where that takes you in life.

[VP Baltar]

keep drunk posting pls

I'm out here having gin and tonics, but also watching Netflix and ppl are kind of boring rn

[VP Baltar]

Your reads are basically "everyone that shades VP

CHECK MY OWN VOTE SEEMS LIKE UR FULL OF SHIT

[VP Baltar]

VP you should go on the wiki and read some scumplay articles that you should never omgus as scum in the current site meta

Lol telling me how to play mafia is a real trip.

Lemme say, I've been around the block

[VP Baltar]

Bad thing about no daytalk is that scum are just gonna spaghetti all over themselves trying to stop their buddies from eating a yeet.

Shelly, if you're town, I'd prolly stop trying to save geraintm bc it's going to look bad when he flips red

[VP Baltar]

SEEMS LIKE UR FULL OF SHIT

personal attack vs. solving my alignment when I'm pushing you

hmmmmmm

I haven't felt pushed at all.

Spaghetti
Spaghetti
Spaghetti

[VP Baltar]

oh and preflip assoc #2

you're "saving" gerain yet confident in him flipping red which is weird

Literally have no idea what you're even trying to say here, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

[VP Baltar]

oh wait i misunderstood that

you're telling me to stop saving gerain
gerain's iso is basically the same as all the other lurker isos, i completely don't get this cw at all
confidence in scumflip when we're 48 hours into d1 cant plausibly come from town imo

You should vote him then and prove me wrong with a flip

[VP Baltar]

You should vote him then and prove me wrong with a flip

info flipping is one of the easiest ways for scum to get free miselims

THANK YOU PROFESSOR MAFIA

[VP Baltar]

I still feel pretty justified in asking for reasons. 225 barely counts.

Don't stop believing
Baby, hold on to that feeling



Anyhow, I'm sober now and this line of questioning looks even worse in the light of day.


And, oh hey, geraintm still isn't doing anything.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not sure what DK's posting frequency has been like in other games - there's a decent amount of proactivity in there but also a lot of fluff. Scum me is all about stacking the post count high to make it more of a faff for the town to pick up the important stuff, so I could totally see someone pulling this as a scum move.

I haven't played with scum!Koba, but this is basically how they posted in the town game I played. Probably NAI.

[VP Baltar]

I may as well address my geraintm vote, which I think is quite obvious, but everyone asking can't be scum (though I am certain at least one is).

I initially voted them as a bit of pressure because they were fluffing and semi-lurking. Then geraintm finally comes back to the thread and posts an angry screed about how fluffy D1 is and laments why we can't just hurry along to D2. Is it possible that comes from town? Maybe. But it also feels very manufactured when you consider we only had a handful of pages at that point. I could see getting annoyed at fluff posting and a long D1 if we were on like page 50. But only ~10 pages? Seems fake.

Geraintm hasn't posted any substance since then either. If they are so eager to get to the meat of the game, why aren't they scum hunting?

[VP Baltar]

Btw, shelly and infinity, definitely am going to require you to explain why you chose to attack me over my geraintm vote while saying nothing about DGB's vote.

What made me more scummy than DGB?

[VP Baltar]

The part where they're talking about eating the NK after they yeet a scum is them being incredibly confident that they're going to lynch scum D1, which is mathematically unlikely and Town hardly ever has that much confidence given Townies would know next to nothing outside of what their role is. Also the fact they're extremely confident that Koba or themselves is going to die at night, that means that they're incredibly confident that Koba is town and it's like scum is needing to pocket Koba but not push their full innocence as they might be a needed push later down the line and they don't want to put the full effort of having to develop a full ass 180 story.

Yeah, I'm confident that if Koba is town here, we have pretty good odds of yeeting scum D1. I don't play to lose or hem and haw. Neither does Koba is my sense.

Further, if Andres and DGB are town, scum are in for a rough road. That's potentially 4 fairly aggressive town players to contend with from the start.

Why should I concede D1 has to be a misyeet?

[VP Baltar]

Bad thing about no daytalk is that scum are just gonna spaghetti all over themselves trying to stop their buddies from eating a yeet.

Shelly, if you're town, I'd prolly stop trying to save geraintm bc it's going to look bad when he flips red

Nah, trust me, if they feel like they have a weak partner, they are going to help us yeet it.

Maybe. Probably depends on experience level. Losing a buddy D1 is a sketchy proposition if you're not confident in your own scum play.

[VP Baltar]

I didn’t like the fact that you wanted gerain to comment on shelly but you didn’t.

Except, that's not true?

I was actively pressuring shelly in 180 184 and 190.

Very clearly I felt there was merit in that push, and that's why I questioned and poked at shelly there.

[VP Baltar]

Looked to me like side commentary, there was no voting or questioning of shelly.

Post 180 is a literal question to shelly.

[VP Baltar]

Fair enough, and I agree that it was clear you thought it had merit. But you didn’t give an opinion or commit yourself to anything, it felt kinda like throwing shade to me.

I mean, the way I tend to see it is that town is a push and pull with other town players. Koba was doing a good job pushing shelly hard. I wanted to notch that pressure up a bit (or at least reinforce Koba was not alone in suspicion), but felt no need to take over the inquisition. I think it is fine for town to play supporting roles when the situation calls for it.

[VP Baltar]

DkKoba: 1 (Tayl0r Swift)
Infinity 324: 1 (geraintm)

Look at these votes to find people who are not genuinely working to solve the game.

[VP Baltar]

Also, not mafia can weigh in at any point

[VP Baltar]

Koba where are you? I think there’s some chance shellyc is Scum here hahaha

I won't take this as an insult I wasn't mentioned.

I'd yeet shelly or geraintm today. You got a preference?

[VP Baltar]

Btw, shelly and infinity, definitely am going to require you to explain why you chose to attack me over my geraintm vote while saying nothing about DGB's vote.

What made me more scummy than DGB?

DGB overall tone is really kinda laidback in a town way as town are getting a feel for the game in early game
And DGB is I afraid to go against the majority opinion which reads rather townie

Oh tone reads...

... so definitely not made up bullshit.

[VP Baltar]

tone reads are good if ur actually good and read them right

Considering shelly just said some crap that is NAI for DGB, that's gonna be a naw from me

[VP Baltar]

Also, if not_mafia isn't going to play, we should just yeet them now

[VP Baltar]

So many choices

[VP Baltar]

Still have no idea why people SR jackson

I feel like a good bit of your game so far is telling other people why their scumhunting is wrong, and I hate it.

[VP Baltar]

My IC thing isn't real fyi

Oh wow. Didn't see that coming

[VP Baltar]

Still have no idea why people SR jackson

I feel like a good bit of your game so far is telling other people why their scumhunting is wrong, and I hate it.

Really? I’m sorry I called your reasons for voting gerain bad. Jackson is something that I’ve asked for multiple times and no one has given me anything, this is just more of an “i don’t get it”.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather see more proactive scumhunting from you instead of just saying other people's cases are bad.

If you're town, all that approach does is serve to undercut pressure.

I don't have a strong sense of who you think is scum and why, but maybe I'm missing it

[VP Baltar]

I see Geraint is getting the usual reaction

Is this how he always plays? That's annoying

[VP Baltar]

I play by engaging people

For sure. I'm the same way. There's a lot of dead weight in this game so far.

Let's change approaches. Tell me why shelly's play doesn't feel scummy to you. Her posting is pretty bad.

[VP Baltar]

whats in there is basically throwing shade at me, "this is a big turn around on shelly over some meta argument. ngl", "gonna let jackson/infinity/shelly keep scumming it up" without actually. articulating reasons. which is pretty indicative of overconfidence.

Boo hoo.

[VP Baltar]

In general I see a lot of effort to solve when not many others are. If she's doing this to get free townpoints, I'm fine giving them to her and seeing if she can keep it up.

I come away with a very different feel about those posts. They feel quite surface level and go nowhere to me. I'll reread shelly's iso today though and see if I can see where you're coming from.

[VP Baltar]

I'm hurt

[VP Baltar]

What I mean is shelly's comments aren't actually pushing toward figuring out the game or creating dynamics that lead to pressure and slot-solves.

Her points are either shit posting that basically takes dumb swipes at me ('policy all policyers!'), or they are just softballs like engaging with Jackson's perpetual fake claiming.

To that end, players like Andres and DGB are certainly being more effective. Hell, even three posts in, at least Not_Mafia has tried to do something interesting to elicit results (even if that is their play all the time).

Playing a town role is about more than "making cases"

[VP Baltar]

I feel like the opinions she's putting into the thread are real thoughts, and putting your thoughts into the thread is a great way to solve the game imo.

Like I said, I'll reread with an open mind later today. I definitely haven't ruled out she is just bad town. But I am clearly giving her less credit then you are for the same posts.

[VP Baltar]

It's times like this I just try to imagine what is going on in the scum PT.

I guess that I like to think you’d be better than this.

I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean

[VP Baltar]

infinity is scum and is also defending shelly pretty hard.

I'm not really getting infinity scum here. What's the bullet points on this again?

[VP Baltar]

How many games do you have together?

[VP Baltar]

Well that seems a very small sample size then.

[VP Baltar]

Math, what is your read on Andres and DGB?

[VP Baltar]

Also, for anyone who has played with not_mafia....what was your experience? Do they become useful at some point later in the game if they are town?

[VP Baltar]

Generally no

So how does someone read this slot? I mean I guess we can wait a day for a cop or a vig. But that's annoying

[VP Baltar]

They've been constantly discrediting those who disagree with them

I just played a town game with Koba where they went ALL OUT fighting people who disagreed. Gonna vouch that this is not scummy behavior for Koba.

[VP Baltar]

They've been constantly discrediting those who disagree with them

I just played a town game with Koba where they went ALL OUT fighting people who disagreed. Gonna vouch that this is not scummy behavior for Koba.

Can you link a game so I can have a peeksies myself?

Here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83882

Town Andres was in that game too. I was scum. It was fun and those two plus DGB were why I signed up for this game.

[VP Baltar]

I question that you substantively read that game in 6 mins

[VP Baltar]

well, we would move to night one and day 2 with one dead townie and a bunch of night actions from other players. that is a more interesting game state than right now

Who should we yeet right now so we can move to N1?

[VP Baltar]

Just fyi, as site meta, we've moved away from using the word lynch.

Yeet or eliminate are good substitutions.

[VP Baltar]

For players: we encourage players to use alternate words such as eliminate as well, but we will not be policing the use. Game moderators are welcome to set up their own rules on the subject.

I am still allowed to use the word, it's just suggested that we don't and/or it's up to mod discretion.

For sure. Just asking you to consider how other people might feel about it

[VP Baltar]

@VP do you agree or disagree with what I said regarding 600

I'm not in favor of no yeet D1. Even a blind policy yeet like No Mafia is better for town. Even if you are incorrect, you gain info later in the game via wagon analysis

[VP Baltar]

Just fyi, as site meta, we've moved away from using the word lynch.

Yeet or eliminate are good substitutions.

or lunch

fixing dat autocorrect prob

[VP Baltar]

so theres at least one scum in {shelly, dkkoba} based on their buddy-buddy interactions. im leaning towards either shelly or both. i think theres probably two scum in {infinity, koba, shelly} but not all three. i could see all three scum being in {infinity, shellly, koba, gerain}

This is a hot take indeed.

[VP Baltar]

I don't agree they're open ended, she literally said scum is likely 3 out of a group of 4. Don't see why targeting high activity slots or PoE is scummy, even this early (I love PoE). I get there's a playstyle barrier here, do your best to explain it. My only read on taylor is a light townlean since in a recently finished scum game she seemed to care more about what people thought of her.

Curious why you see this slot as townlean when she called you scum for pretty weak ass reasons.

[VP Baltar]

Zdenek, can I got your top three suspects and why?

Also, have you caught up fully now?

[VP Baltar]

*get your

[VP Baltar]

Zdenek, can I got your top three suspects and why?

Also, have you caught up fully now?

I'm getting there.

You've played with Koba before, what's your take on him here/compared to when you played with him. The nonsense level from him bugs the hell out of me.

Them.

Koba"s play here is consistent with their town play in the other game we shared. Doesn't mean that makes them town. I haven't played a game where Koba is scum. But I can say this play is not out of the ordinary as town. I don't personally find it annoying as a member of the town. I did find it slightly frustrating when I was scum and Koba was town. But shrug.

[VP Baltar]

I really dislike Andres early on trying to lock infinity into a scum read on Koba, and I find his progression on Koba unnatural, from not getting townvibes/dislike attempt to derp clear themself to "Koba where are you? I think there’s some chance shellyc is Scum here hahaha"

I actually agree with this. Andres is not feeling obvtown to me so far this game

[VP Baltar]

Like, I want andres to be town here, but I'm not seeing as much fire in the belly as I might expect. I don't know what his D1 play is usually like though.

[VP Baltar]

Leaning into this argument with Koba feels pointless. I'd suggest we move on from it. If you think Koba is scum, then vote them

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: math

[VP Baltar]

Taylor, why are you so interested in white knighting math?

[VP Baltar]

Seems to be generating reaction suddenly. this is good

[VP Baltar]

There is certainly scum in the pool of people demanding wagon LOGIC, regardless of Math's alignment.

D1 is stagnating and a flash wagon was definitely called for. People crying it's not a wall case are not convincing.

Infinity, what's your take on Taylor's reaction here?

[VP Baltar]

DK explaining what misrep means != explaining what I said that she believes to be a misrep. I've pursued this fairly doggedly, because I'm not a fan of people just flinging stuff to see what sticks without having to justify themselves, but I realise I am in danger of missing stuff in the wider game by trying to chase down dkisms at this point.

wait mark do you SR koba or just dislike their playstyle

Also, co-sign this. Vote or shut up about Koba's play style.

[VP Baltar]

andres' reads feeel backwards to me.

im not asking for a wall on math. im just asking someone to explain why you suspect math, because i dont get it.

I can try to do this today.

[VP Baltar]

There is certainly scum in the pool of people demanding wagon LOGIC, regardless of Math's alignment.

D1 is stagnating and a flash wagon was definitely called for. People crying it's not a wall case are not convincing.

Infinity, what's your take on Taylor's reaction here?

who is that pool and why is it scum?

Taylor and Andres off the top of my head.

I think at the very least, it is anti-town to try and immediately stifle an action that was needed to move the game forward. If I'm being less generous, I find that actively scummy because it is a direct attempt to get pressure off math and keep the game stagnated.

I'm sure Math is a big boy and can speak for himself. The town play is to let him respond and see what happens with the wagon.

[VP Baltar]

Like, I want andres to be town here, but I'm not seeing as much fire in the belly as I might expect. I don't know what his D1 play is usually like though.

Have you only experienced playing with him from D2 onwards (eg via replacement)?

Yes

[VP Baltar]

I hope I've been fairly clear that I find them scummy and FOSed them in 631. I can only vote for one person at a time and at this stage, I think the DGB vote achieves more (there's certainly no shortage of posts from dk).

You're right. You have been clear. I was being overly harsh because I was tired of reading pages about Koba's playstyle

[VP Baltar]

the town play is to question things that are odd. nothing i did changed the dynamics of the math wagon. but it did generate a whole bunch of other content. i dont see how you could accuse me of trying to stagnate the game. me taking on four people who hopped on a wagon at the same time for little reason is also hardly the sort of thing scum would want to do if trying to blend in.

It's a better scum play than letting a buddy get run up quickly and forced to claim.

Or it could be a chance as scum to defend a townie who might get yeeted.

I see benefits as scum to the minimal blowback you've taken this far

[VP Baltar]

balt what is the progression on me? If you SR'd me do you think I bussed by starting that wagon?

Did I answer this?

Im still a bit skeptical of you, but flash wagoning math was protown. I don't think I'd want yeet you today, even though I said that earlier. Willing to hear you out some more and see if I was wrong earlier

[VP Baltar]

I also think that this narrowing of the pool for a vote D1 that you were trying to do here does not sit all that well with me,

I typically try to narrow the pool D1 to keep it productive. Too broad of a focus leads to very long D1s, imo. And that is not helpful (at least to me) later in the game when I want to do lots of rereading and refresh my understanding after some flips.

Is it scummy to you beyond the idea that everyone should be on the table D1? (Which, I think if you're being honest with yourself probably isn't really true, but whatever)

[VP Baltar]

But you will forgive me for being skeptical of your slot here, yeah?

Yeah, the feeling is mutual.

And I try my best to play my scum and town style similar. Doesn't help me as town, but it's the best approach for my overall win rate (which isn't that good anyhow lol)

[VP Baltar]

I already think they’re Town.

I'm assuming this is some secret meta read you don't want to explain?

[VP Baltar]

I also think Jackson’s push against Koba (around 542) is Scummy. They tried to argue that there was a meaningful difference between Koba’s play in the game VPB quoted, and this one, while barely skimming through Koba’s ISO. Infinity immediately demonstrated that Jackson’s take was deceiving.

I'd co-sign this. It was definitely a misrep to say Koba's play here is different from the game I linked. Could be confbias, but it's a bullshit take either way.

[VP Baltar]

OK, so here is what I think is wrong with NDmath.

Biggest issue I see is a lot of IIoA posting and just general wall paper existence.

This early on post is a prime example of what I mean:

ndmath how do u read the last 3 pages?

There's pressure on shelley infinity and geraintm during the last three pages.
Shelley's been responding in what I think is slightly scumindicative for them.
I don't have a read on infinity.
Geraint hasn't given anything yet.

Also Jackson's fake claim is interested, but probably nai.

Math is asked how he reads a situation and recites a general fact that there is pressure happening and then gives a kind of softball read of shelly that seems to justify where his RVS vote was already at.


Further point against Math is that he feels like he is trying to pocket me and basically only interacts around shelly. I just don't like the stagnation on this slot.

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

[VP Baltar]

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

I think I’ve openly suspected Math this game?

Maybe I'm wrong. I thought you called the wagon bad.

[VP Baltar]

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

I think I’ve openly suspected Math this game?

Maybe I'm wrong. I thought you called the wagon bad.

748

hmm. I didn't really take that as strongly calling math scum. Particularly when your previous post to that was this:

I will say, there’s a lot of votes on Math all of a sudden (I skimmed) and that sort of thing tends not to catch Scum.

Let's clarify:

Where do you sit currently on Math?

[VP Baltar]

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

I gave a straightforward bit if reasoning just earlier today. Persuasive or no?

[VP Baltar]

Rude and nasty indeed

[VP Baltar]

Your read of me is terrible DGB, but get on this math wagon

[VP Baltar]

Not too late for scum to bus Math here. Premium seats are almost filled and that speed hammer is gonna look bad!

Buy now!

[VP Baltar]

mmm something doesnt feel right

About?

[VP Baltar]

it doesnt line up logically that they are voting here or like not even questioning u voting here.

I don't disagree. I mean me being on that list with two people I've pushed the most to get yeeted is some serious "VP is kamikaze scum", but oh well.

I take what I can get to yeet scummy people though. I always encourage scum to bus their buddies

[VP Baltar]

OK, so here is what I think is wrong with NDmath.

Biggest issue I see is a lot of IIoA posting and just general wall paper existence.

This early on post is a prime example of what I mean:

ndmath how do u read the last 3 pages?

There's pressure on shelley infinity and geraintm during the last three pages.
Shelley's been responding in what I think is slightly scumindicative for them.
I don't have a read on infinity.
Geraint hasn't given anything yet.

Also Jackson's fake claim is interested, but probably nai.

Math is asked how he reads a situation and recites a general fact that there is pressure happening and then gives a kind of softball read of shelly that seems to justify where his RVS vote was already at.


Further point against Math is that he feels like he is trying to pocket me and basically only interacts around shelly. I just don't like the stagnation on this slot.

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

Hey Taylor...I already posted a case. If you're making a meta defense of Math, the burden isn't on me. I've never played with Math before.

I don't put a ton of stock in meta, but you're welcome to say this is Math's town play. I don't find it particularly protown, and it isn't really about lurking.

[VP Baltar]

Also, hi gamma!

[VP Baltar]

Hello again! Hope I’ll be able to play a little more composed this game.

Haha, well I now should be able to read you better that we've had some experience. Let's win this thing! (Pls2btown)

[VP Baltar]

im not here to defend math. the case is eh. maybe. but this looks a lot like what ive seen from math as town. math is a wallflower who doesnt really do much. i dont know how to sort math and maybe math makes for a good policy lunch, but eh. i think we can probably do better.

I'm open to being persuaded elsewhere. Haven't seen super strong cases today (but it is also D1, so we can only expect so much).

So are you saying you think this is Math's town meta or just his general play all the time, regardless of alignment? Does math usually tunnel?

I'll be curious to see what Math says about gamma's entrance.

[VP Baltar]

:/

[VP Baltar]

not mafia isnt actually playing the game they just purposefully post the bare minimum to annoy ppl and yet we still allow them to play like this (((:

I'm not opposed to yeeting them because I really don't like condoning shit behavior

[VP Baltar]

not mafia isnt actually playing the game they just purposefully post the bare minimum to annoy ppl and yet we still allow them to play like this (((:

I'm not opposed to yeeting them because I really don't like condoning shit behavior

I'm all for reducing the amount of guesswork in the game and would favour an elim on a less active/engaged slot over a more active one if all other things were even in terms of scuminess.

That being said, we have over a week of time left in D1 should we need it so we don't need to be overly worrying about this at this point (I'm not saying you necessarily are )

Yes, I would still rather yeet someone we agree is scummiest.

I think it's a complete waste of a day to some degree to have to yeet n_m, but it is also very annoying behavior to encourage. Last resort for the day if needed I guess

[VP Baltar]

Honestly I might rather lim DGB/math than n_m if we're limming a low activity slot

Just wait until I start spamming the game.

I'm here specifically for this

[VP Baltar]

not mafia isnt actually playing the game they just purposefully post the bare minimum to annoy ppl and yet we still allow them to play like this (((:

Uh...

[VP Baltar]

Honestly I might rather lim DGB/math than n_m if we're limming a low activity slot

Just wait until I start spamming the game.

I'm here specifically for this

Would you like to see my fakeclaim menu?

I hope you have a nice Merlot with that

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: NM
I'll probably always be okay with yeeting him so I'll just park this here

i dont like this

i do agree with this though. i want to townread koba for it but its kinda obviously a bad vote.

That was the scummiest thing koba has said all game actually.

Not 20 posts earlier they all but said n_m should be yeeted.

[VP Baltar]

not mafia isnt actually playing the game they just purposefully post the bare minimum to annoy ppl and yet we still allow them to play like this (((:

Uh...

[VP Baltar]

"We still allow them" sure sounds like "we should do something about that"

[VP Baltar]

no it was more towards moderation on this site lol

Short of that, isn't just policying them to the moon corrective action then?

I'm torn myself because I hate it, but I don't necessarily blame gamma for that vote

[VP Baltar]

U see, policy only works when the player in question actually cares about winning

Fair

[VP Baltar]

Pretty sure consensus on shelly never really deviated from SRing her?

I think most people were TR/null reading her at the time of her replacement. My own earlier scum read had certainly softened considerably.

I feel like gamma is pocketing me and it feels weird because he called me a fucking idiot last game LOL

Is traitor even a normal role?

The social dynamics have changed a lot with Flavor Leaf's entrance, and it's making it feel like a different game. Now I'm less sure on Koba and Andres for different reasons, but I'm pretty sure FL is warping the gravity.

[VP Baltar]

Jackson, you got anything to actually say outside of "Koba is scum! Koba is scum!"?

Being real, just seems like you're scum tunneling because you have nothing substantive to say about the game.

[VP Baltar]

VP gives me pause as their tone gives off an almost authority like vibe which makes me think they play good as scum.

Registration and ID please.


This sort of feels like town on town, but Koba, I'd be interested in you responding to the broad strokes of Jackson's case if you will.

[VP Baltar]

im reformed i try not to get into 1v1 shitfights anymore bc it clouds my reads :/

you keep putting off this promised readlist

i do?

Yep, you've been called put on it numerous times

Lol we can still yeet this garbage folks

[VP Baltar]

FL, what did you learn by looking at that normal with Andres, Koba and myself?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:

No.

Sorry, but FL has definitely not shaken Math's scuminess just yet. FL is clearly a better player and needs to catch up before we just move on from this wagon.

[VP Baltar]

I was just voting for pressure, I feel like we'll get enough out of the slot

Who should we yeet then?

[VP Baltar]

I can get down with a gerain compromise

[VP Baltar]

we can do better than gerain, especially since gerain should be come more sortable on later days.

He's legit scummy. I'm not interested in Koba or Jackson or you, for that matter.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: geraintm

Let's do this while we wait for the replacements to catch up. This day also has too many pages already (yes, I'm old).

[VP Baltar]

It's because I love you

[VP Baltar]

This day also has too many pages already (yes, I'm old).

I see this a lot from more experienced players and it baffles me ngl, because all I can remember is this type of speed game (or even faster sometimes) and it feels normal to me. I just like thinking about the experience differences as I think it's super cool

Yeah, I try to accept that site meta has changed since I was very active. I find it hard to do rereading later in the game when there are like 200-300 pages, mostly because I have limited time to like sit down for an hour and reread.

It's cool though, I'll deal. I just think we have gleaned a lot of interaction at this point and a flip would be helpful

[VP Baltar]

Now, Koba might have thought that this wasn’t necessary once they established that VPB was Town (324), but much later they left VPB as null, so I am still left wondering about this.

This is a pretty good point

[VP Baltar]

{gerain, koba, DGB, andres, zdenek} is my PoE atm

I’ll be honest, I think there’s a very good chance that you don’t have 3 Scum in here. Outside of knowing my own alignment, you’re putting too many slots that are hard to sort, and practically giving everybody that’s active (or at least that I feel is driving the game somewhat) outside of Koba and I a pass.

What are the odds there is one scum in there in your opinion?

[VP Baltar]

cross-posted with this -> having looked at a couple of their games, it seems like they were somewhat more engaged on later days, but I agree that it would be good to have a plan in mind for what we are going to do about geraint/N_M as a town, especially if they do not kick into gear later on

Yeah okay, yeeting them later down the line after they've been useless would probably be better than wasting them D1 before they open up if that's how they usually play.

I have to say I disagree with this as a strategy. I would rather not gamble that 3-4 players are going to improve their play later. If they fail to do so, we are going to be relying on night actions to solve...which can be tricky business.

I guess that's why I'm interested in yeeting the scummiest of the dead weight early. If we are wrong, the consequences are less.

[VP Baltar]

actually the fact that VP is even asking that question makes me want to scumread VP. i didnt say anything because i wanted andres to answer but... its a 5 person PoE. it would be shocking if there wasnt scum in there.

My point is to start narrowing the lim pool. I don't find it some amazing list either, but if I can get enough people to start focusing in on their lim pools, we may see where the overlaps are and hone in on a consensus scummy player.

[VP Baltar]

We don't have THAT much time left to actually run someone up and consider a claim.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: koba this is my only actual scumread atm, I don't want to lim a low-info slot except as compromise.

I find it weird you have one not great scum read after 40+ pages

[VP Baltar]

Taylor, comment on that? True?

[VP Baltar]

Hmm, this isn't a terrible argument against infinity. Still interested in Taylor's take on whether indecisiveness fits infinity meta D1.

[VP Baltar]

Huh?

And then from that, to asking Infinity about their take on something was mighty confusing to me.

I'm going to pressure people as I see fit and always reserve the right to change my reads on a dime. I find myself going back and forth on infinity. They were making some pretty hard defenses early on, particularly of shelly that I did not like. Then infinity started probing more and doing more original scumhunting, which I find town.

That being said, I think some of the more recent points you've made to be persuasive (less so Taylor who is leaning heavily on a meta argument to some degree).

tl;dr: shrug. I just try to be as transparent as possible with how I'm feeling at any given moment, even if that means some people are going to call me scummy.

[VP Baltar]

That being said, I think some of the more recent points you've made to be persuasive (less so Taylor who is leaning heavily on a meta argument to some degree).

Additionally, I didn't love infinity's response to this point in particular.

[VP Baltar]

What I would say is that I would have maybe preferred to have seen these reasons you’re articulating now more clearly stated at that time.

This tends to be my play. It's probably a personality trait from my job (journalist). I'll often hold back initial reasoning a bit because it can prompt reactions. Always happy to be clear though if asked.

Anyhow, I'm biased about the TR on me because I think my own town play is pretty clear most times. I always get some suspicion or concern though because I play OK as scum too.

[VP Baltar]

In our last game i was better able to read their alignment without needing to pressure them.

Haha, in fairness, I had to fake claim against you that game, so you knew for a fact I was lying. Can't remember if you were busting my chops before that much or not. My fake claim had bought me a lot of cover that game until it was unsustainable at the end.

[VP Baltar]

I think there’s scum pushing him as town.

This has occurred to me. I usually take a lot more flak early game, even as town.

[VP Baltar]

Or maybe I've just really become charming after all these years.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not sure. I might be underestimating Andres ability, and if so, I think he could manipulate incredibly well. Something about the way he's posting makes me feel that way, especially now that I look at his greeting towards me could have been a pocket attempt.

I'm interested in hearing more about this and what's pinging you.

For me, Mark and Andres seem to have a similar playstyle. But Mark feels like super obv town to me and I keep being skeptical of Andres in a way that I can't really put my finger on.

[VP Baltar]

Andres is frustrating me because I hate people who say "you're reads are wrong therefore you're scum", it's an awful take and it's making it hard for me to read his recent posts objectively.

I think the point was more that your reads were maybe a bit broad and without controversy, rather than flat "wrong".

[VP Baltar]

Timely cross-post with VP's 1300 -> VP suggesting infinity's reads are broad and uncontroversial, while I am making a similar case on VP

I would say the difference is I'm doing more pushing to actually yeet these slots.

[VP Baltar]

Hmm if you think this why haven't you tried to correct me/push me on this? I've been pretty open about my reads.

I didn't think this until you succinctly posted your pool and Andres made his analysis.

I'm not quite decided on it, but my point was he was making a pretty legit criticism

[VP Baltar]

This line of inquiry has been fairly quiet recently - @VP has FL changed your mind on this slot?

FL's posts are absolutely better than Math. Im just skeptical because it is clear FL is a capable player. Not ready to completely flip that read, but I admit FL makes it easier to prefer someone like geraintm

[VP Baltar]

if we miselim they don't have the easy excuse of "player XYZ said this was a meta tell"

That's not what I'm doing fwiw. I was asking for Taylor's take. If she had disagreed with infinity, I would have checked myself to see who was being more accurate.

[VP Baltar]

I'm liking Flavor Leaf so far.

Are you voting him though, carrying over from Math?

[VP Baltar]

I was pretty clear in that I'm not a big fan of a lim that gives on little info on d1, so I've been trying to find other options if possible.

Short of a not mafia lim, I think any elimination would carry an ok amount of info after 50 pages

[VP Baltar]

I'm liking Flavor Leaf so far.

Are you voting him though, carrying over from Math?

Is there a rush? I don't really know who else to vote for right now, I have too many town reads.

You had a list of four scum reads didn't you?

[VP Baltar]

Poof

[VP Baltar]

no one wants to eliminate geranium

I do...

[VP Baltar]

Hi I kinda ghosted for a full 24 hours did anything major happen

Not particularly. Looking forward to your takes though!

[VP Baltar]

More generally, I am concerned about the general gamestate of having 4 lurker and/or low-info slots atm (N_M, Geraint, DGB, Zedenek). This is all conjecture so take it with a pinch of salt but I could definitely see 1 or even 2 scum coasting in that bracket, which makes me a bit twitchy about pushing for an elim on an active player at this point

Lol wasn't this the point you were trying to use to call me scummy? Saying I was going after the lurkers.

Glad you've come around to the correct point of view.

[VP Baltar]

Flavor gets town points for this fight with infinity I think.


That being said, people sure are eager to talk about a wagon other than geraintm. Run this fool up.

[VP Baltar]

I find it pretty silly the number of garbage slots you have ranked above me in your list Taylor.

But, infinity is in my null pile and we absolutely need to get a claim here soon so we can move forward.

Why should I join this wagon?

[VP Baltar]

i feel like youre being opportunistic and manipulative.

Who am I manipulating? I don't follow.

What's the bullet point case on infinity?

[VP Baltar]

I've been advocating for a gerain yeet for most of the day. How in the holy hell is that opportunistic?

[VP Baltar]

by dropping the bit about opportunistic.

I quoted you. The word was literally in the post I made. I think you're actually the one doing the selective interpretation of reality here.

[VP Baltar]

its very lazy. there is actual scumhunting to be done and youve parked on a policy lunch. as town starts moving towards real wagons, you start deflecting pressure back onto gerain.

Who are the real wagons? infinity? Because I was trying to gather gerain votes before this latest infinity push I'm pretty sure.

[VP Baltar]

I've made a very clear case why gerain is actually a good yeet today Taylor. Meanwhile, I just asked you for your bullet points on infinity, and I'm not seeing them.

[VP Baltar]

To be fair, I’ve put forth a rather solid reasoning for InfinityScum scenario, whether it’s agreed upon is the difference, so I don’t necessarily like that as an argument, and seems potentially antagonistic towards Taylor for potential gamestate reasons

I agree you put forward a case that is actually plausible, which is why i said you came off town for it.

Im asking taylor to make the bullet points. The reason I'm doing that is because scum often fake their cases and may not be able to quickly recite their thoughts on demand. The fact Taylor is trying to bullshit me right now isn't great.

I posted I was open to hearing the case from her perspective and her first response is I'm being opportunistic and manipulative. I find that quite questionable on the ol' sincerity meter.

[VP Baltar]

im a tonereader mostly. normally i mindmeld with infinity, and infinity generally comes of as obvtown to me. that isnt happening here. and the tone feels off. for more concrete things, see my iso.

I'm on my phone and not ISOing anyone atm. If you have something more substantial than tone/meta, spit it out.

I'm not asking you to make a wall. Literal bullet points will do and I'm not asking you to back it up with evidence. Just tell me

[VP Baltar]

I find it pretty silly the number of garbage slots you have ranked above me in your list Taylor.

But, infinity is in my null pile and we absolutely need to get a claim here soon so we can move forward.

Why should I join this wagon?

Actually, I made a comment about your list Taylor, and then the only question I actually asked was about why you think the infinity wagon is good.

If I'm being completely generous to you, I can at least say I see how these things could be seen as happening at the same time. It's not credible to say I duped you into this conversation though.

[VP Baltar]

1463 is a townpost. I think taylor is town from the last few pages, she seems earnest and not pushing an agenda.

Lol complete wrong interpretation = no agenda

[VP Baltar]

Oh hey, it's jackson and geraintm everyone, posting weak sniping and IIoA, respectively.

Look, we need to come to a consensus wagon today. We have roughly 3 days and still need to get through the claim process. Late tomorrow and Wednesday will be a loss for me because of the election in the US (soft VLA warning for about 24 hours there), so I'd rather we move this forward today if possible.

I'll be switching my vote to infinity today unless you all come to your senses and see what a pile of poop you're letting skate into D2. Scum are going to try to keep the wagons as divided as possible up to deadline so any yeet is a rush job. Don't let them.

[VP Baltar]

Hard-claiming masonry with FL

Uhm, VOTE: DkKoba.

What does Jackson saying that have to do with your vote?

[VP Baltar]

How about mark (((:

I'm not feeling a Mark yeet today. Like, on a personal level, I hate that posting style to some degree, but that's NAI.

I also don't like people attacking Koba based upon their posting style...again, that kind of stuff doesn't show alignment. And yes, I understand people have stated other reasons. But I do think some of the Koba hate is just based upon a playstyle that is hallmarked by a middle finger.

You're completely opposed to infinity, koba? I'm increasingly thinking infinity v. taylor may not be TvT. There is just some weirdness in the talking past each other. Honestly, I find both of their play kind of garbage for different reasons (infinity has no scum reads after 60 pages v. taylor making "tone reads" cases and generally trying to AtE with me), so it makes sense for one of them to go if I can't get people to bite on geraintm (despite everything he posts being non-committal to any clear viewpoint).

[VP Baltar]

And how does it not sway my vote exactly? If I have two players I know are Town, that’s a reasonable core to be voting with.

You know they are town? Huh?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: infinity

Think that is L-3, but anyone after me should count the votes. Also be aware that n_m could try lolhammer

[VP Baltar]

And how does it not sway my vote exactly? If I have two players I know are Town, that’s a reasonable core to be voting with.

You know they are town? Huh?

What’s so complicated about assuming that a Mason claim D1 by two players contains Town like 99% of the time?

Um, because Jackson put out about 4 fake claims before that. It is clearly a thing they do for laughs. Doesn't feel AI to me.

[VP Baltar]

Current thoughts on taylor, Andres?

[VP Baltar]

1277 is where I explained it, though it’s kind of a lazy read. I haven’t like VP’s recent posting which feels like trying to set up mislims.

Lol I'm shocked at this turn of events.

[VP Baltar]

/reveal as IC

This is how the did their initial reaction test btw. I would argue that this is somewhat different to writing down the words “I am hard claiming Mason with FL”.

I am a Nigerian prince, and I'm reaching out to you alone...

[VP Baltar]

are you saying you played a game against andre where he was scum?

Nah. I just feel relatively confident I'll be able to figure out whether he is being genuine over time.

It's not so much meta as it is I found his town play to have a certain verve that would be quite challenging to replicate as scum. Possible? Maybe. But I do think it'd be clear if it was inauthentic.

Updates on this VP?

I find Andres lacking this game frankly. Saying Taylor is your top town read is just confusing.

I'll be real with you infinity. I think you could very well just be disengaged town here. If you flip green, you can believe I'll seek vengeance. We do have to yeet someone though and I don't have the sway I guess to get people onto geraintm because people are afraid you yeet lurkers. It's not my top choice, but I'd rather we do this in an orderly process than scramble at deadline on election week.

[VP Baltar]

Also, can you explain your koba read atm?

I still think Koba is town here. Could be wrong, but I think people harping on them about playstyle is creating disengagement. I've never played with scum Koba, but the erratic behavior feels more town to me. Scum tend to try to calm town anxiety rather than just straight flipping a middle finger and fighting a bunch of people at the same time

[VP Baltar]

I hate being mislimmed and will do everything I can to stop that from happening.

I'm the same.

The hard thing for me is that you just don't seem committed to limming anyone.

[VP Baltar]

Check out 473 and the engagement afterwards. VP clearly is aware of the fact that I don't have scumreads, but drops the whole thing until someone else brings it up much later.

So you're saying it's my responsibility to make you scumhunt?

You say nothing changed about your play. That seems to be the problem. And I believe I brought this up around page 50 and just earlier today.

Don't mistake kindness for weakness. Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean I'm not willing to vote you out.

Pedit: Hi Almost 50

[VP Baltar]

Not your responsibility to make me scumhunt, but it is your responsibility to follow up on your own solving of my slot. Now I'm wondering why you didn't start pushing me around page 50.

There is a lot of jabroni play in this game, what can I say.

I don't have a good answer for why other than it wasn't really my ideal yeet today. I spent more time trying to persuade people to my point of view and you kind of fell off the radar, I'll admit. I don't find taylor very compelling. Like I said, D1 I'm going to make the best play for town I can. I'd still be down for a gerain yeet. Less so for Koba. Those appear to be the three legitimate options at this point.

[VP Baltar]

(gamma)

I went after shelly early game, but I like gamma's entrance into the game. He seems willing to mix it up with people. I'd have him in my townish column atm, but still lots to hear from him.

[VP Baltar]

i feel a bit better about infinity now. i dont like at all that VPB is pushing on infinity and promising to go after me tomorrow on a green flip. thats setting up a chain of lims.

So you're saying you think infinity is gonna flip green? Nice walk back

[VP Baltar]

Why specifically do you feel better on infinity? And don't say tone

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: taylor

Cool. Very serious about this. Taylor is cheeky scum.

[VP Baltar]

Taylor has pushed for an infinity yeet all game, and then tries to claim uncertainty at the last possible moment the wagon gets real. Classic scum play.

She also tried to claim she couldn't possibly state a clear case on infinity when I pushed her because I made a comment about her list being bad. AtE everywhere, lack of responsibility.

Yeet Taylor and prosper.

[VP Baltar]

Taylor also spent every opportunity cutting into the geraintm wagon, claiming we are going to get a miracle performance from them tomorrow. Wants to keep the game state unsteady right up to deadline.

[VP Baltar]

Lol taylor is town

Guess we will find out when we flip this!

[VP Baltar]

@Infinity -- let me give you a clear example of why I ask people to "go on record" like that, as I would describe it.

Here is a post from my most recent game. Reckoner was scum caught in a lie D3. This post is from D5 when I started to go back over possible evidence of his buddies. We were in Xylo and I needed to find scum, since I was confirmed town and a swing vote. Gamma can vouch for my play here since he was in that Xylo.

Ok, so let's entertain this for a minute. Who is your best guess at the full scum team reck?

great question. i'd probably wager 2 of the unrevealeds and then one of the claimed roles just based on probability. the extra manipulator role has to be something unclaimed since everything else is at least ACTION confirmed, but not alignment confirmed

so 2 of {gamma, skies, duppin, noraa} and 1 of {ut, ythan, haschel}

out of those, gun to my head, dont think it's gamma or ut.

This might be the revealing post we needed. Put yourself in Reck's shoes here. I forced him to tell me his scum team after he got caught lying. What are the odds he puts both of his buddies in the same grouping in this post? I would think low, particularly in the bracket where he says there are 2 scum.

If true, that means Haschel is definitely scum here. My only hang up with that vote is I don't trust duppin to sort noraa and gamma tomorrow in an open minded way.

Asking people to state their positions and why without revealing your own perspective (I was 100% convinced Reck was lying scum when I asked him for his scum team) can really yield fertile info to harvest later when you know more about the he state after flips.

It may draw attention to me earlier in the game, but I don't really care. I don't think I'm particularly easy to yeet as town.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: andresvmb

making sure you'll lose to me thrice

Did someone fry shelly for this yet? Did anyone suggest this hints she knows andres alignment (and such BS)?

Shelly is now Gamma.

[VP Baltar]

I have NOT abandoned you, I promise. I'm just busy bugging some friends elsewhere. Will be back in a minute.

P-edit: Regardless. Did someone try to throw shade on the slot for that?

I don't recall for that specifically. That slot definitely got pressured early on though.

[VP Baltar]

I'm interested to know why you kept asking me about my read on taylor (ex. 625, 746) which kinda felt like you were trying to set up a TvT.

Because I want to know both of your mindsets. I find it a little confusing that you as town are totally cool with a bullshit meta case being made against you.

[VP Baltar]

I'm interested to know why you kept asking me about my read on taylor (ex. 625, 746) which kinda felt like you were trying to set up a TvT.

Because I want to know both of your mindsets. I find it a little confusing that you as town are totally cool with a bullshit meta case being made against you.

As town, when I've played with someone 1-2 times before, that impacts my read on them more than it should. Have you not experienced this/seen other townies do this before?

For sure. I'd say I'm more inclined to give Koba and Andres leeway this game because I just played with them as town and like them both.

That being said, it's not a free pass. You can see my skepticism of Andres, for example, even if I'm giving him some time to vibe with me.

Taylor's case is legit shit, and you're like "lol Taylor is town" because she posted a dumb reply. Either you're free passing her completely, or you know her alignment. Not saying you can't think she is town, but it would absolutely raise my hackles if I was in your position.

[VP Baltar]

In particular, I'm concerned/worried about DGB - they are clearly a competent player who is currently being allowed to coast and avoid scrutiny.

I've played a good amount with DGB in olden times. This is just her play. She definitely will get more active later. If I had a scum read on her, I'd be all in with you, but she's null to town for me atm.

[VP Baltar]

I am currently 7 pints down

Lol mark is a sponge to still be posting after 7 pints

[VP Baltar]

Irrelevant: Is Prof Mafia your alt?

I don't have any alts. Just lil ol me