Mini Normal 2170: Stuff I’m Listening To [Game Over]

[Thestatusquo]

not really no

[Thestatusquo]

my gut is just screaming that its bulge.

[Thestatusquo]

His whole push on outworlder while simultaneously shading me doesn't make any sense. He's not pushing like he's trying to get anyone yeeted at all, he's pushing like he's trying to just make a show of making an argument. It just doesn't feel authentic. There's a bunch of other stuff that I don't remember it without doing a reread but just like almost every thing he's done hasn't set right with me.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think I am. I don't see why you folks are so sure that lurkers are scum in this game. I've seen plenty of low effort town play exactly like this.

[Thestatusquo]

bulge why do you want to elim someone who will either be killed tonight or will be conftown or a liar tomorrow?

honest question. Because it seems completely stupid to me, no offense.

Like even if you were 99.9% certain that they're lying what is the downside? It still seems better to wait. It's free. What is the downside? I'm struggling to see it here and the weird insistence that the town should preemtively vote off someone that will be automatically sorted if they don't is absurd to me.

[Thestatusquo]

that is a truly atrocious response. If you want outworldER to go today explain why when common sense suggests its a terrible play.

[Thestatusquo]

Because the bulge is scum, mostly.

[Thestatusquo]

No you have not specifically dealt with what I asked you at all, so I'll say it again: Even if you are 90% sure that outworldER is scum why is it not better to wait for a literal 100%?

[Thestatusquo]

Can't think of a power role outworldER could be where it would be worth sacrificing himself for one more day of the night action when scum are in a good position already, but I'm all ears if you want to brainstorm some.

[Thestatusquo]

both those are huge stretches.

[Thestatusquo]

Here's what I think is going on:

re:outworld, I'm not talking about optimal play or what x would reasonably do in y situation. I'm clearly not implying he is playing optimally or within his partners' wishes.

I think this is borderline a scum slip. I think outworldER is likely scum. I think you are upset with his play and you are trying desperately to bus him because you want the town credit for that. I think the sum total of your play this game has been taking vague pot shots at people and then not actually pressuring them when they don't stick with the town. The original thrust of your post today was trying to force the wagon onto me instead of outworldER. Oh, sure, you were voting outworldER, but the majority of your analysis and posts were on me being scum. Now that its clear no one is biting we're back to just aggressively pushing outworldER despite the fact that it doesn't make any sense to kill an IC claim that will resolve itself tomorrow to do so.

As justification for that you have, what? A vague insinuation that they could be trying to get another role cop and the claim that somehow outworldER was the likely elim today anyway? That's just preposterous. Even if he was under heat there's no reason to believe he was more likely than anyone else to get elim'd today. (I know you're going to pick up on my vocab choices again, but this time you do so could you actually address the points I'm attaching them to instead of just listing "ridiculous preposterous absurd" in an attempt to discredit me without in any way addressing my arguments? kthx) Even if he WAS there was no reason to set this up by soft claiming yesterday. The play just makes no sense from a scum perspective and you know. Hell, you even said you know it in the post I quoted here. Now we're supposed to believe there's some nefarious plot to get another role cop that we don't even know is in the game? Fucking hell dude.

VOTE: The Bulge

[Thestatusquo]

please ignore Panzer's scumbuddy.

Bulge wagon is also bad because the case (from my POV) seems to be based on associations with me and while I can definitely see why you all would think that's plausible it's unfortunately untrue and that can be confirmed tomorrow.

we elim Panzer today, I accept no substitutes.

I don't agree with this. I think the bulge is scummy regardless of your alignment, and I believe that pushing to get a player who would be confirmed the next day elim'd has a lot of scum motivation if you did end up being town.

[Thestatusquo]

lol

[Thestatusquo]

You didn't make any points. You said you wouldn't get town credit for pushing a bus on your scum buddy. I'm not gunna explain the very basics of mafia to you if that's the kind of argument you're going to make.

[Thestatusquo]

So you admit that you're playing against optimal town strategy? Yet you still want to do it?

You did not know that town would react that way when you started your push, and continuing to ram through a elim against minor opposition as you were trying to do before I made my mind up about this (and still are to an extent) is definitely a play scum make to try to gain town cred. Hell, I basically did the exact same thing you're doing right now to CES in whiteflag. Different situations, but take an elim that may or may not happen today and push it until it topples over, oh they're scum? Cool. Who would have guessed!

You're now trying to claim that there would be no town cred for pushing a red elim and that's just patently false. That's literally just not how mafia works.

[Thestatusquo]

And don't think I haven't noticed how you've taken great pains to respond to the case where he flips red what that means for you and not what it would mean for you if he flips green. Can't think of any reason why you'd be more interested in arguing one case over the other no sireee.

[Thestatusquo]

How have you scumhunted at all until today? Does nuance mean basically not giving a crap until it comes time to push outworlder?

I mean if I get what I really want and outworld hangs today and bleeds red, yea I'd fucking hope for a little bit of credit as the only person who didn't buy his horseshit.

that doesn't make any sense. how am I getting town credit from this? how is the way I've gone about pushing for this elim in any way conducive to gaining townie points?

lol

[Thestatusquo]

Oh so now you want me eliminated instead of the person you said was 100% to be scum?

Cool dude. Please die.

[Thestatusquo]

It's not a shift in momentum, I believe you have been gunning for me literally the entire day and kept pushing on outworlder in the hopes that town would be stupid enough to off them today. This would benefit you if he flips red by getting the bus you were pushing heavily for or if he flips green so you don't have to waste a night kill on him.

I said that in the very post I voted you. Maybe you should reread it instead of posting about how you wouldn't get town points from a red flip while later saying that you would hope to get town points from a red flip and then saying that those posts somehow don't contradict each other?

Does nuance just mean not making sense?

[Thestatusquo]

literally my post voting you I said I thought I was your primary target today not outworlder. So since then, bruh. Because I predicted your scummy actions.

[Thestatusquo]

1v1 me or bulge today folks. Lets do this.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not doing myself any favours in looking super towny with my push. If I successfully push the wagon thru and he flips, then yea I'd think it would be fucking bizarre to immediately run me up the next day.

I was talking about town credit if he flips red. The whole time. Why the fuck are we talking about for the push as if that's something that matters for the result of the attack? This is just more gibberish.

You're conceding my point that you would get town credit for bussing a scum player. While trying to argue somehow that my point that your motivation for doing so would be to gain town credit isn't valid? What? What do these words even mean? My point was and has been the whole time that bussing a scum player gains you town credit, which is just a fucking truism. Which you've admitted.

Like the quote is in response to my point that you could be trying to get town credit for bussing a scum buddy. So even if you're trying to claim that somehow you were talking about something different there, then that's admitting that you were just responding to my point that you would be trying to get town credit from bussing with non-responsive nonsense. Especially because, again, you've now admitted that point.

This is what caused me to LOL. Your points don't make a damn bit of sense.

[Thestatusquo]

I think bulge's play is unbelievably scummy this game, it's not my fault if people don't come along. We have plenty of deadline left.

[Thestatusquo]

because niether of you seem very interested in convincing any of us to look into your silly slapfight.

I gave plenty of reasoning.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: The Bulge

[Thestatusquo]

I want to mass claim.

[Thestatusquo]

VT

[Thestatusquo]

bulge

[Thestatusquo]

Supersaint isnt a normal role is it?

that doesn't seem right to me.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean that claim is outrageous am I missing something here?

[Thestatusquo]

ok pooky what. Is that a joke?

[Thestatusquo]

There's no risk of you being quick elim'd because you're scum so save us the hand wringing.

[Thestatusquo]

isnt 7 and 8 the same thing

not only is that true, he slipped that he knew that already.

I'm a loyal jailkeeper. targeted pooky n1 for reasons I can't recall because i crumbed panzer. outworld n2 to check the softclaim. kasu n3 should clear him because there was no reason to nk.

[Thestatusquo]

kasu target makes no fucking sense.

[Thestatusquo]

I kind of need to think about bulge a bit because I'm so tunneled but his point about the setup not having enough town power without another town PR is a valid one.

I'll need to think about it.

[Thestatusquo]

I want other opinions because I'm not great at balance, is the setup balanced without bulge's role? I'd like answers from anyone who is not the bulge or pooky.

[Thestatusquo]

Like my gut is still screaming its the bulge but even though I agree with some of pooky's argument something about the push in the last few pages feels really off from him.

[Thestatusquo]

Keep in mind also that I've got 4 hours of sleep in the last 48 because *gestures vaguely at everything*

[Thestatusquo]

What's your gut, blitzo?

[Thestatusquo]

I meant what's your gut on the balance but that is all interesting as well.

[Thestatusquo]

Basically my thought process is kind of like this right now:

If bulge is town that would give me a town group of Blitzo, Kasumeat OutWorldER bulge me I think.

That would make the scum team gamma NM and Pooky.

That doesn't sound outrageous to me.

But I'm not convinced on bulge being scum, that would just be fucking wild to me considering his play the last 3 days.

So it hinges for me on what I think of the setup. If the setup is balanced with no additional town power I want to push bulge on the balance of his play. If I don't then I think I have a solve for this game in what I said above.

[Thestatusquo]

*not convinced on bulge being TOWN I mean, obviously. I still have not slept and I'm glued to the vote counting. :/

[Thestatusquo]

I fucking HATE trying to outguess the mod.

[Thestatusquo]

But my gut tells me that the setup isn't balanced without an additional town PR.

[Thestatusquo]

The more I think about that solve the more it makes sense to me too. :/

[Thestatusquo]

I'm gunna UNVOTE: so no one else can vote bulge and then have a scum pile on hammer happen.

[Thestatusquo]

this definitely looks like scum theater to me.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't like to admit to being wrong on the bulge but I think I'm wrong on the bulge. If he beat me with a gambit he beat me with a gambit, but the logic on the setup not making sense without the role seems sound to me.

That gives me a scum team of blitzo/gamma + NM + Pooky, with the first slot way more likely to be town blitzo scum gamma than the other way around imo.

Probably willing to elim in N_M or pooky today but could be convinced on gamma if that's where town ends up needing my vote, but I'd much rather lim in the first two which I think are locked scum slots.

The only thing that doesn't fit with that is I don't understand why gamma would be hard selling bulge as town if gamma was scum. That's the only piece of the puzzle that makes me want to lean blitzo as the last scum over gamma.

[Thestatusquo]

you are an incredibly frustrating human being.

[Thestatusquo]

Will post more tomorrow when I have time, but for now phone posting. Bulge and OW, who are your preferred lims today? I would prefer Shae or Gamma or NM. I just hate everything about how Shae has handled Bulge's claim.

First of all, Shea please.

Second of all, what do you hate about it?

[Thestatusquo]

The game has slowed down. :/
Kasu should answer that question.
Alternatively shea should have a really strong mafia read right now - his unvote of bulge was extremely awkward and eeks caution that should have been there far beforehand, which is dissonant with his start of day.

I literally broke down exactly who I think is the scum team.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't know why you are putting a stronger burden on me for telling you who the scum is than you are putting on yourself. I explained in great detail that process of elimination gives me a pool of Pooky NM you/gamma and my reasoning behind the you slot. I don't know why you think I need to have a detailed breakdown of pooky when I think he's from my point of view mechanically guaranteed to be scum. Like, I think he hasn't played particularly scummy, but he hasn't played particularly townie either. There's some weird tonal stuff that makes me look at him quite a bit, in particular the stuff today with him and gamma as well as him with bulge, but I don't think he's played a particularly scummy game, just that I have a pool of

blitzo the bulge nm gamma outworldER kasu pooky.

Kasu's town has read very town to me a couple of times. I could go look up particular posts but tbh I don't feel like it, in addition to that he's cleared mechanically if I accept bulge is town.
Bulge is cleared mechanically if I believe the claim, which I lean towards because of the setup.
outworldER is mechanically cleared by role.

That leaves me pooky blitzo nm and gamma.

I do not think theres a double scum hood, which means that one of blitzo/gamma is not scum. I have already broken down in detail my thoughts on that, which lean blitzo more likely to be town but gammas play the rest of the days being more scummy in my book but his play today not being what I would expect a scum player to be doing.

That's my thought process. If you disagree with it, please point out where you disagree, but you can't just say "shea is just saying random names."

And what's more the idea that I'm getting shit for dropping the bulge push is WILD to me. Scum shea would NEVER drop that push. That is an argument I could very easily win and win the game if I'm scum. See: white flag mafia with me getting CES elim'd despite multiple people arguing against it. What you're seeing is me realizing I'm missing something and reevaluating with new information that I didn't understand before. That's uhh...What I think you would hope to see town do, not scum who could very easily win that argument.

If I asked myself what correct play today would be I would say exactly what you're accusing me of not doing, which is attempting to win a very winnable argument that bulge's claim is a scum gambit and winning the game, which by the way is precisely what pooky is doing.

[Thestatusquo]

Like honestly calling for me to elaborate on pooky is absurd. From my POV he's locked scum because of POE so saying you want me to break down that slot is asinine.

[Thestatusquo]

Like did you read my posts or were you just looking for an angle to shade me from? Honest question.

[Thestatusquo]

Like...Dropping a bunch of names and saying "these are probably scum" is really not enough.

lol a full POE break down of why people are mechanically locked as scum from my perspective is "dropping a bunch of names and saying these are probably scum."

Holy hell dude. Are you serious?

[Thestatusquo]

Very simply questions:

1) Do you have a problem with my logic and if so what?
2) I just gave you tons of analysis about pooky in the posts you're responding to. Are you just going to ignore that to continue whining about pooky?

[Thestatusquo]

Like I've now talked in depth about pooky multiple times and the best you can do is make a one sentence response saying "I don't think its unreasonable to ask you to scum read for me." while not engaging at all with that analysis? That really doesn't feel like you're arguing in good faith my friend.

[Thestatusquo]

Like...Dropping a bunch of names and saying "these are probably scum" is really not enough.

lol a full POE break down of why people are mechanically locked as scum from my perspective is "dropping a bunch of names and saying these are probably scum."

Holy hell dude. Are you serious?

Yes. Saying a bunch of people are POE scum isn't really useful to the rest of us. I've got NM saying I'm scum by PoE which isn't anything either unless you want to argue that he's town for thinking it.
I'll concede that I've forgotten that you've broken down the hood though? I'll have to double check in a moment to recall your thoughts on it.

I POSTED THEM IN THE POST ALMOST LITERALLY ABOVE thIS ONE .dwr.erg
erhgerdfgbdsf
vcbvxc

[Thestatusquo]

Like I'm not trying to be a jerk but from my perspective this looks like this:

1) I explain where my elimination pool is. It has a scum solve that is based on my PoE. I don't have a lot more in depth analysis on players in that pool because its based on, again, PoE. But I do give some because theres minor things.
2) You ask me to give in depth read of pooky which I have never claimed to have and without disagreeing with any of my logic call my PoE solve "just throwing out names."
3) I respond by saying I don't think pooky has played town or scum but hes in my PoE for the logic I've given, there's been some small stuff but I think he's played a pretty neutral game. Also, here's some more in depth logic on why people are in my PoE.
4) You whine more about me not giving a breakdown read of pooky which I have never claimed to have and then ignore the breakdown I gave on the neighborhood literally 3 posts up and say you'll have to look more into what I said.

It's frustrating man. Reading the thread explains the thread. I'm not responsible for giving you a pooky read. If my read on pooky doesn't work for you that's on you not on me.

[Thestatusquo]

the thing I keep coming back to is this: is the setup balanced without bulge and no scum power?

[Thestatusquo]

I know it also sounds stupid but I never particularly understood why people thought kasu was town.
He's just seemed kind of "nothing" to me all game. I can't remember a single notable thing he's done and even considered him as scum at one point in the hood.

Like maybe he's mechanically cleared here but can someone sate my paranoia or something?

if you think bulge is town kasu has to be town because of the loyal modifier on the role. The only scenario in which town bulge targets scum kasu and we have no kill is if scum also decided to no kill for unrelated reasons.

Unrelated:

Should we NL today?

[Thestatusquo]

Very simply questions:

1) Do you have a problem with my logic and if so what?
2) I just gave you tons of analysis about pooky in the posts you're responding to. Are you just going to ignore that to continue whining about pooky?

I have my own question to Blitzo.

We somewhat recently compiled a decent amount of reasons to suspect Pooky. Where is that in your mind rn? I don’t see how your current mindset results in dumping the entirety of that logic.

Did you read literally anything I wrote?

[Thestatusquo]

#2978 is directed at Gamma.
As for NL - we can do it but bulge/OWER is guaranteed to die thus we're no closer to solving anything.
Though I guess bulge dying confirms kasu which is okay either way?

It won't affect our scumpool outside of that though.

If they kill bulge it clears kasu for sure and makes me sure of my solve, if they kill ower then we have more data from bulge to use tomorrow to make decisions.

[Thestatusquo]

I wasn’t talking to you lmao

IT WAS I WHO COULD NOT READ THE WHOLE TIME

[Thestatusquo]

oops my bad guys

i still do not believe bulge is a protective role

sheas poe solve is laughably bad

if its bad point out the flaws in my logic. Like obviously it doesn't work for anyone else because they don't have the knowledge that I'm town but if you accept that bulge is town as I am and know that I am town like I do I challenge you to point out what's wrong with it.

I'll wait bruh.

[Thestatusquo]

OH sick that makes my life a bunch easier

are gammo/blitzo the only ones in the hood?
was there no kill n4/do we have an explanation for that?
is bulge town?

I think your slot is pretty much confirmed to be scum mechanically from my pov so there's that.

but I am very happy to play with you.

[Thestatusquo]

Also I'm gunna throw a major pissy party about N_M when this game is over. Fair warning.

[Thestatusquo]

is it silly?

Why would scum target Kasu N3 and not the person who was claiming IC?

this is why I didn't believe your LJK claim at first, I'm still not sure I do.

this in no way answers "why would they no-kill". you can keep speculating about why they didnt target you but the indisputable fact is that they did not. It's becoming more and more annoying every time you bring up that dumbass question without making an ounce of effort to simply use the facts and draw conclusions from it yourself. what you're doing is pointless noise.

I mean...you have to admit that it opens up the possibility to use the exact argument you're using right now. The scum would trade nothing because its YOLO anyway, and they gain access to the argument you're making right now in return. It would be a good trade for scum. In my eyes that WIFOM definitely exists, so I don't think you're giving the question and the argument as much credit as its due.

In fact, the forcefulness of you trying to claim conf town off of it is the main thing that rings false with me about your play today, a lingering doubt in my position. It seems like if I were town in a position like you were in I would see this as a valid argument against my claim that I'm cleared and would grant it.

[Thestatusquo]

I am in favor of NY both as a state and as a reaction to the current game state.

[Thestatusquo]

im saying that's the only time i was ever talking about the no kill thing. my other posts, to put it bluntly, were simply telling our ic to stfu.

I don't believe this is accurate. Posts 2801-2803 sure read like you're at the very least being very disdainful to the idea that scum might NK and you've backed off of it since then as it became clear that most people don't buy that argument.

Like I'm still leaning town on your slot because of the mechanics here but I don't think you're being intellectually honest with this post.

[Thestatusquo]

Is there town motivation for trying to conf town yourself as much as possible even to go so far as to stretch a little bit the nature of the situation? Yeah I've seen that done by town. Are there more scum motivations? Yeah probably.

idk dude. Like I said I'm leaning towards a solve of worstie pooky and gamma/blitzo. We'll see how that looks tomorrow with more information.

VOTE: NO ELIMINATION

I think this is obviously the best play.

[Thestatusquo]

Gamma something that hasn't been addressed is why you pushed hard to convince blitzo to push me in the hood last night when you yourself havent pushed me at all and had been calling me town as recently as yesterday.

[Thestatusquo]

Gamma something that hasn't been addressed is why you pushed hard to convince blitzo to push me in the hood last night when you yourself havent pushed me at all and had been calling me town as recently as yesterday.

Because he was being very loud about not being confident in anything and I was trying to give him a push forward, plus I agree on the read but didn’t want to push it myself given my charisma only seems to kick in when I’m dead wrong.

This is stinky smelly poo.

Blitzo does this jive with your understanding? You seem to have been saying that it was gamma who had the read and pushed you into pushing it. Is that true? Am I misreading that?

[Thestatusquo]

@Kasumeat before I proceed, what is your reason for playing mafia?

Mostly because I like to feel clever.

I asked you a question about your thoughts on my reaction to bulge. I'd like an answer please when you get a chance.

[Thestatusquo]

Tbf, if I were scum would I not want to press my luck and see if I could get away with pushing one more bad choice for town to make? In the world where I’m scum my play up to then had been stellar, as I’d managed to drive 3 miselims without looking like I was really behind them. You don’t tag out when you’re playing a winning game.

I'm really unsure what this even means. In white flag you were super interested in solves and fitting behavior together in analysis of wagons and what not. I really haven't seen a lot of that here. I've seen a lot of pushing things from the sidelines and this is perhaps the latest example. It's a huge part of why I lean scum!gamma more than scum!blitzo.

[Thestatusquo]

A better response to that post would be to, Idk, share all those thoughts you claim to have with the town.

[Thestatusquo]

A scum RB doesn't make a ton of sense in this setup I think but its vaguely plausible, thats probably the only circumstance in which bulge is not scum right?

[Thestatusquo]

Oh I'm stupid, I posted from the scene, didn't see the two pages of discussion.

Let me catch up.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't like the bulges target. Obviously I think the town is in a better position today if there's a conf town alive. His argument that scum wouldn't kill outworlder is null as soon as he makes it. It's wifom. This is the second time in two days he's used a WIFOM argument like "why would scum do X" well...for exactly the argument you're making right now. I don't like bulge's "fuck" post when he enters the thread. It seems like the post of someone who was gearing up to have this argument and wanted to fake an emotive tell. I've done the same thing myself as scum.

I don't really like pookys absolute certainty that bulge is scum either. That doesn't scream like a town mindset to have (granted, it was the exact mindset bulge had on day 3 also re: outworlder.)

I don't like worsts wishy washyness either. He's saying things like "oh my brain hurts" but doesn't seem to be making an actual good faith effort to break it down.

So I'm gunna vote the bulge and if he's town he'll get piled and we lose and he can yell at me in the post game and if he doesn't one of him or me is scum and the town can decide that how they please. I don't care about using all our discussion. This day comes down to this always anyway.

VOTE: Bulge

[Thestatusquo]

The main thing that doesn't make a lot of sense to me is that is that scum actually ARE unlikely to try to hit outworldER if bulge is town. Because its the obvious protect. So maybe they wifom themselfves out of it. It's only in a world where bulge is scum where they can confidently submit that kill. It gets into leveling wifom from there but Occam's razor tells me the simplest explanation is that scum knew outworlder was not going to be protected. Because bulge is not town.

Am I sure of that? Not really, but I don't think any amount of leveling is going to actually help me make a better decision. I've considered all sorts of crazy things last night like for instance what if blitzo and gamma aren't neighbors at all but are both scum, but tbh all of those possibilities just seem much less likely than just bulge being scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh hey look bulge didn't get piled while I was asleep.

Coolio.

[Thestatusquo]

14 hours since I voted bulge and he hasn't been piled despite ample time for the scum to do it.

So the lim pool is me or bulge today.

[Thestatusquo]

Towns gunna vote me and lose this game is what I'm seeing here. We deserve to lose though so I'm pretty fine with that.

[Thestatusquo]

Pretty close to just self voting to end this game tbh. If the day is just going to end with gamma the worst the bulge and kasu voting me then I'd rather just do it now. I'm pretty frustrating. There's lots of people saying I'm scummy but no one explaining why at all. And when they do the explanation makes no fucking sense. I don't have the mental strength to deal with it when I feel like 2 or even three of those people are scum anyway.

Meanwhile bulge is caught scum. His play makes no sense from a town perspective repeatedly. Every day of this game. And he would be dead if he were town and I am, so either vote me or bulge and get it over with so I can move on with my life.

[Thestatusquo]

this is good news to me because the last couple of pages have read like Gamma has nothing in this game except for praying that he's correctly pocketed you via hood interactions : )

And you think I'm scum despite the fact that the number one thing he's been trying to do with that pocket is get me eliminated?

Good sound reasoning.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea's vote Today is so scummy too. I feel like it comes from a really frustrated townie or it's scum theatre between Bulge and Shea but that seems, like, really unlikely.

Why is it scummy? You keep taking random shots saying things I do are "scummy" but with no analysis at all.

Your analysis following it here doesn't even suggest that you think its from scum. But what is the scum motivation to just yolo take a 50-50 today when they could have that same play available to them any time later in the day without putting their name in the two person lim pool immediately to start the day? Like yeah this could be a gambit but is it really a likely one?

[Thestatusquo]

Gamma if I'm "scum 100%" enough for you to try to push your neighbor to push me for you (lol) please explain why. You haven't yet made a single real argument about it. So you're gunna have to tryhard just a little bit more to get me yeeted.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not even going to respond to bulge since he is 100% locked scum because he'd be dead if he was town. Maybe if he makes some real arguments I'll respond to them but everything today has been wifom nonsense and then getting upset when people call it wifom nonsense.

[Thestatusquo]

Saying I'm not sorting is just blatantly untrue.

So let me get this straight. You think I'm "100% scum" because you think I was "leading the town to its doom" despite the fact that I was pushing on bulge and couldn't get people to vote for him even though I thought he was scum and then town yeeted someone I expressly did not want to lim and argued against who YOU were pushing (along with noraa too by the way) who ended up being a mislim?

Am I being gaslit here? I'm scum because people didn't vote the person I wanted to vote instead of the person YOU helped mislim?

Cool.

[Thestatusquo]

Is this really the best y'all got? That's quite literally a gut read and a dream and you say its 100%?

That's not even remotely close to a town mindset. I'm still not even 100% on bulge right now because there could be some reason scum haven't been able to pile on yet. Saying its 100% off of that garbage is absurd.

[Thestatusquo]

Fwiw my poe solve is completely null and void if bulge is scum so I'm pretty much back to square one now wrt the rest of the town. I think the way gamma has played this game is garbage. I think pooky hasn't done a whole hell of a lot. I think blitzos posts tend to read pretty genuine and agendaless. I think the worst has seemed more townie than N_M did but that's not a very high bar.

[Thestatusquo]

Kasu just...doesn't bring anything to mind when I try to think of their effect on the game, which aint great.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't know, I've been paranoid of shea all game but when he actually sits down and talks to people or addresses things it seems like it clicks. Maybe it's just because he's town and bulge is just scum because him not protecting the IC is just awful and kasu really isn't that towny either.
Like I've been asking for a huge period of time about why kasu is town and I still don't think I've gotten a single answer. I got something on meta but that's not really that great either, especially with his whole current "bland comment and dip" strategy he's got going on right now.

I also feel like a lot of the arguments for bulge being town at this point are wifom and weak.

my reason for thinking kasu was town was entirely based on the POE. If bulge was town Kasu had to be as well. There really wasn't much behind it besides that. As I said below when I try to think of what Kasu's impact on the game has been I have a hard time coming up with concrete things at all.

[Thestatusquo]

Above not below. Directions are hard.

[Thestatusquo]

The idea that somehow bulge and I have been engaging in an aggressive three day long bus is somehow wild to me. Sounds like gamma is getting kind of desperate here.

[Thestatusquo]

*three day long bus somehow is wild to me.

[Thestatusquo]

i'm pretty startled that bulge still hasn't crossvoted shea despite shea being mechscum fhpov and i'm pretty sure this is a guilty conscience indicator

wha

why haven't you voted back?

no reason. does it matter? why would I withhold my vote as scum?

Because from your perspective I should be confirmed scum. One would think you'd be interested in yeeting scum. But to be fair, you haven't shown the slightest inclination to do that the whole game either so I guess theres something to be said for consistency.

[Thestatusquo]

Like we're here in end game and you did your big 'how dare you think I'm scum for making two obviously scum motivated plays in a row here is some wifom about why you're wrong to think scum would make these plays' shit and then you just disappeared and didn't seem to care at all how the rest of the day went. You've now popped back up with me as confirmed scum from your perspective and you once again don't seem particularly inclined to push me or discover who my buddies would be. You just say half assed "solves" and wifom.

[Thestatusquo]

Its not about whether you actually would or would not place the vote as scum it speaks to your mindset and that your number one goal in the game ain't to yeet scum because no town player just knows someone is confirmed scum and doesn't vote them.

Contrast this with your play day 3 trying as hard as you possibly could to get outworldER yeeted because they were "confirmed scum" because of the claim even though it wasn't a correct play.

[Thestatusquo]

Like honestly this is just blatant shit and its been blatant for days now and the only thing that saved him was the claim which I had to take seriously.

[Thestatusquo]

Because you're not thinking about getting scum yeeted. Town would place that vote immediately. It slipped your mind to do so because you were too busy defending yourself.

[Thestatusquo]

Subconscious priorities. It's pretty clear that "yeet scum" isn't one of yours and hasn't been for the whole game. I could go back and find plenty of other examples from your play to showcase this, but the outworldER thing is a good example.

[Thestatusquo]

My mindset today is "don't fuck up again and get yourself yeeted for the immediate loss". this narrative is weak as hell.

And yet its true.

why would you think my number 1 priority right now would be to get to step 1/3 in killing scum, rather than preventing step 1/1 in losing the game immediately?

IDK why was your number one priority on day three trying to yeet the confirmable town role despite the fact that it was clearly the wrong play to do so?

[Thestatusquo]

So you're saying you did it on purpose? If so, why?

[Thestatusquo]

that's weak as fuck. how often does scum just "forget" to crossvote back lmao

big caught for the wrong reasons energy in this post.

[Thestatusquo]

My mindset today is "don't fuck up again and get yourself yeeted for the immediate loss". this narrative is weak as hell.

And yet its true.

why would you think my number 1 priority right now would be to get to step 1/3 in killing scum, rather than preventing step 1/1 in losing the game immediately?

IDK why was your number one priority on day three trying to yeet the confirmable town role despite the fact that it was clearly the wrong play to do so?

Also please explain to me how voting someone who should be confirmed to you as scum somehow interfere with your ability to defend yourself? This doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Thestatusquo]

hey so please calm down and remember I am a human being and don't tell me to fuck off and die that is a completely unacceptable thing to say to another human being in the context of the game. I thought thats what you were saying. If its not, simply correct me.

[Thestatusquo]

Like yeah I just reread your post and I misunderstood you but telling someone to fuck off and die is just completely an unacceptable way for you to speak to me. We're playing a game, dude.

[Thestatusquo]

Sure but fucking die is a really horrifying thing to say to someone. Like yeah, I misread your post. That does not in any way justify you saying that to me.

I'm going to drop it now but please don't say stuff like that to others no matter how annoyed you are.

[Thestatusquo]

probably not worthwhile to say that out loud if you think hes the baddies.

[Thestatusquo]

gamma seriously I'm asking you oog to calm it with the personal stuff like calling people bitch/piece of work or telling people to fucking die. Next step is to involve the mod. There's no need to be toxic.

[Thestatusquo]

You can be passionate and not say horrible things to people. They are not mutually exclusive. Let's get back to the game though, I really would like to drop this.

[Thestatusquo]

Please explain to me why bulge is not scum without mentioning me at all.

[Thestatusquo]

More to the point, explain what bulge has done this game that you felt had a greater likelihood of being town motivated as opposed to scum motivated.

[Thestatusquo]

So literally not a single other thing? Or is there more?

[Thestatusquo]

Like my second question is important here. Usually even when I think someone is scum I can point to things they've done that at least give me pause in terms of "oh, I think this is a play more likely to come from town motivations." For bulge I've pretty much got zip.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean its probably worthwhile to make a detailed breakdown. I'll try to do at least some of that right now. Gimme like an hour or two.

[Thestatusquo]

Ugh I just got a third of the way done with this and then my computer crashed and I lost it all so uhhh time to redo it I guess. Fuck technology.

Day 1:

{Thestatusquo}
{Panzerjager, PookyTheMagicalBear, The Bulge}
{Not_Mafia, Noraa, Kasumeat, duppin, OutWorldER, UneducatedGuesser}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Blitzo}

pedit: Was just about to post this for content but ok

what's the rush to get a list like this out?

seems like most of the people outside of your true null territory are for pretty shallow reasons? so idk how much content this really provides, unless you're hoping for reactions, which judging by the list it doesn't seem you are.

This is a minor point but I really didn't like this entrance into the game. Yes, a frequent town strategy in the early game is to be hyper nitpicky in order to generate discussion, but if you look deeper at this it actually discourages discussion. At its base bulge is questioning the very concept of putting out read lists this early which seems to me to be the opposite of what town wants. You want people to say as many things on the record as possible so questioning it in this way seems dubious to me.

This is the part of day 1 where I started thinking bulge was starting to pocket me:

This last page and a half of gamma reads really earnest to me.

I agree, but be careful not to lean too hard into his flattery

also welcome back shea, good to see you!

I don't like it. I can see why Shea didn't like Kasu's reaction but it's fairly standard for his meta as town to get engaged in stupid shit-fights.

ok, what do you think of kasu's shitpush on shea?

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

This is the big one. I just at the time and still don't understand what the town motivation for telling a person who I am unsure of their alignment (this is day one, remember) that you're not pushing them. I want all people to think I might be pushing them because I want them to react to me. I see plenty of motivation for scum to want to avoid a big day one confrontation with one of the most well established town players in the game though. I brought this up and bulges response was not inspiring to me either:

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

Honestly I don't like this post at all.

What in my post made you think that you needed to reassure me that you weren't pressing me? Why would you do that even if you thought I wanted it?

looking back I read the last line of your 472 too fast and thought you were implying I was trying to trap you into answering a certain way

Which does not in any way answer my concerns. He is basically saying he thought that I thought I was attacking him. But that's not at all responsive to what I was saying which is why would a town player reassure a player of unknown alignment that they're not pushing them. It doesn't make any sense to do so. Especially when you look at bulges posts later in the game where he says that he gets his best read from making people react to him specifically.

Analysis of play:
Fundamentally he does not seem to be particularly interested in determining alignment or even saying what he thinks peoples alignments are for other people to read him. Here are literally the only posts he made all of day 1 that at all expressed opinions on someones alignment:

i could go for outworld rn, prob not anyone else

gotta run for now but I'm reading up and I really don't like murdercat

Noraa how about you attempt to contribute to the game by explaining your scum read on me?

I don't think the main intent of this post was really to help noraa contribute.

ur telling me that activity determines whether or not they are scum?

Noraa this is why we think you look scummy, this is clearly a misrepresentation of the point

tmi?

Why didn't you answer my other questions?

didn't feel like it. my scum radars gone off too many times for each time to be a scum so its not determined who my SRs are rn so I didn't elaborate

Except you explicitly named Outworld?

I want to dig more there but he's slightly absent from the thread

Is this in reference to me or Outworld?

u

MCat already said this, but MCat hasn’t really been absent in any real sense.

VOTE: Noraa
My town vibes on her dried up very fast.

Now everyone starts voting Noraa, guess I'm a trend setter.

I am still going to resist my urge to scum read Nora for everything she says until I read meta though

this is where my gamma/murdercat/?? solve kicks in

noraa is still town also

There's a couple of other posts where he hints at possible belief in alignment, like when he drops this bizarre speculative gem:

caught up. still liking mc/gamma/and maybe a sleeper pick like panzer

actually here's a fun little thing: vig is obviously currently trying to decide between nm and panzer if there is one. i think nm would be a missed shot.

but there's just nothing there for the most part that you can come back and say "day one bulge thought X about Y and that's something we can contrast with later positions."

There's no pressing with votes, there's no progression, theres no development of reads. There's just lots of fluff questions and maybe one or two token references to people's alignments that can easily be walked back.

He says that's a good description of his town play and maybe thats true, but my take on this day one is that he did not put a lot of effort into solving anything. Came up with a random hypothetical scum team and then jumped fourth on the wagon of the miselim with very little justification or reasoning.

I shall now do day 2.

[Thestatusquo]

Day 2

VOTE: noraa

Noraa is now being voted by the bulge despite the fact that one of the few things he said day 1 on alignment was that she was town and despite the fact that nothing had changed in her play at all since then.

I asked why and his answer was the following:

Can I get an explanation? I'm kind of following your progression but its spread out over so many posts.

very soon, but if you're anxious to know it's pretty recent in her iso

I perhaps let him off the hook here because I was focused too much on noraa but his response to me asking him why he did a complete 180 and now was voting noraa was Soon TM. He then has these posts to explain himself:

I agree they've been good but they dont feel like guesser's town game.

Actually, this post pretty well implies you like the content of 1744 but only find it shady for meta reasons,

and

that you concede it is not an obviously scummy post.

it's not exactly the hook-line-and-sinker I was hoping for so yea I'll have to let that one marinate for a bit. but I'm glad we talked.

I agree they've been good but they dont feel like guesser's town game.

I agree they've been good but they dont feel like guesser's town game.

Why? How are they good but not townie for him?

I played one game with guesser as town and town!guesser didnt sus everyone or have walls as long as the ones here. Guesser was also more present and the tone was less .... idk passive?

perhaps but I'm not feeling a lot of town!guesser vibes...
then again in the last game I was in with guesser, I jailed guesser cuz I thought they were scum but they were actually vt :/

But also Bulge, the majority of Guesser's SRs on me are meta related and just saying I'm not seeming as town as I did in the last game. Isn't that the same?

No the first few of his major reads had me as scum bc of meta reasons and guesser has done a total of like 4 of those so I think its absolutely fair to say that.

If you don't know why I'm voting for Gamma then I just don't think you're reading the game, I explained my vote in detail already.

Anyway, my read on you is not the topic of discussion here, your read on me is the topic of discussion, we're here because you engaged with me, not the other way around.

Have you got an answer to Bulge's question yet, or nah?

I made it very clear why I SR you.
ur tone is off.
ur play style is different.
your tunneling(which I'm fairly certain is AI for u)
your vote's not matching ur focus(ur votes on gamma yet u continue to tunnel me and not expand on ur case on gamma)

I did not engage you. I have no interest in talking to someone that's just going to tunnel me rn. You engaged me.

this is not something you say to someone you are scumreading. especially with the timing of where that scumread sprang up.

And like maybe I'm stupid but I still don't really even understand what this is getting at. I pushed further which gave me this reply:

is that really the basis for the vote?

i mean it's not anything I'd vote a TR for

Which like the interesting thing here was noraa WAS a town read. A pretty strong one I can only presume because he took the time to single her out as town day 1 when he did that for literally no one else except maybe in passing N_M. I think what happened here is that bulge saw noraa floundering and decided she was the best miselim target and was able to increase pressure on her and let her do herself in. I for one obviously bite into this critique again a little bit but then again I was scum reading her from the start. There was not a huge different from when bulge went out of his way to describe her as town and when he decided she was the person he should be voting. With this as his "case?" Maybe someone can clarify for me what's going on here but I simply don't get it. It's nothing. It's fluff. It's so nothing that when pressed on it he literally shrugged and said he wouldn't vote a town read for it. Maybe he was forgetting that voting a town read for it is exactly what he was doing?

Then noraa gets more votes and he parks his vote on blitzo and disappears for the rest of the day:

whatever I still trust it even if gamma has seemingly forgotten[?]

VOTE: blitzo

i'll go either way but don't want to leave noraa at e1 unattended

Again, nothing had changed. He had been pushing her all day and yet when she starts to get votes he jumps off and then yeets off into the sun.

This happens after the claim and this is really important. He has several times yesterday and today made the argument that noraas role of a checker makes a lot of sense with his role in the game. He has gone as far as to make the claim that the checker in the setup implies that his role is real. If that's the case why didn't he do more to stop noraa from being yeeted? He can go either way? Really. Really? With your role which you claim makes a lot of sense with the checker that she is claiming? You have nothing further to say on the claim? You think this is the way a town player with a role claim that makes sense with their role reacts to someone being on the yeet block? To hell with that. I don't know if the bulge hadn't yet formulated his fake claim or if he just didn't think about this at the time or if he just decided that getting the easy mislim was more important but this is just 100% not the behavior of a town player with the role bulge has in this situation.

[Thestatusquo]

I could probably find more to ask, but one question that pops into my mind is why wouldn’t Bulge potentially find it more effective to sort someone who is in a relaxed state, which would motivate him to make it clear he was not applying pressure?

Perhaps, but how does that square with the way bulge has asked questions to literally everyone else this game AND how he has claimed he best gets reads?

[Thestatusquo]

I'll do day 3 and 4 tomorrow. There should be plenty of things to talk about in my analysis of bulges reaction to noraas claim for right now.

[Thestatusquo]

Gamma has called my play tepid multiple times and I do not think its an accurate description of how I've played so perhaps you should explain what I've done thats tepid or stop making that claim because last time I asked you about it you basically just shrugged and said that I didn't get the bulge yeeted as if that's up to me alone.

[Thestatusquo]

Lol @ that response tho

[Thestatusquo]

Day 2

VOTE: noraa

Noraa is now being voted by the bulge despite the fact that one of the few things he said day 1 on alignment was that she was town and despite the fact that nothing had changed in her play at all since then.

lmao what is this. we have differing views of the game? cool. imo her play day 2 looked scummy.

You had differing views with yourself. Try reading the post.

apt description of the surrounding paragraph

Common scum response when they can't answer an argument. Try again.

being too busy to log on to mafia scum dot net is scum behaviour, got it

You had enough time to come back and make this post and three others. You were clearly aware of the claim since you made several responses to people who were talking about it. Saying "I was busy lol" is not a response to my argument. My argument is about negligence, not activity. Again, try again.

I didn't know anyone else's role. Noraa's role is useless without mine. Mine still has use. maybe there were even others who had synergy? maybe there were other power roles who had synergy with the checker? maybe one of them would step forward? regardless of any of that, it's nothing I was willing to expose myself over.

There's a wide variety of behaviors between "shrug either is fine with XD" and outing yourself to protect her. You did the former and said NOTHING about her role or what you thought it might mean for her alignment AT ALL. I know you know nuance exists. Don't try to pretend you don't when it benefits you.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not interested in picking at every little nitpick you've brought up, shea. I don't care to convince you of anything, my job is to convince blitzo and kasu and worsty to vote correctly or lose.

And yet you did try to nitpick the post and failed to respond to literally all of it.

[Thestatusquo]

Looking closer at 3331 I feel like it’s a bit overly broad. There seems to be a metaphorical canyon where the context for what Shea is saying just drops off until the Noraa claim is brought up.

What does this even mean?

[Thestatusquo]

The reason I'm passing over the context is there wasn't a lot of context there in the iso imo.

There is more to bulges play on day 2 that I'm not talking about, specifically he does spend some time talking about blitzo. But that's not relevant to my post. You asked me what I thought was not town actions from bulge specifically. If you want me to break down the rest of the day I'm going to tell you to do that yourself, because that's not the work I was trying to do.

I never claimed to be giving you a full breakdown of the game or even of bulges play during the game. I don't think that context is super relevant to what I'm talking about so I find it kind of weird that this is what you think its important to react to. Do you think the bulges reaction to noraas claim is the reaction of a town player who has the role he claims to have? Why are why not?

[Thestatusquo]

Like we have a situation where there is 100% scum in {me, bulge} and you think that I am 100% scum because I was unable to finish getting bulge yeeted while you are not willing to vote for a player who a) did nothing to find scum on day 1 b) tried to get the IC killed the day before it was confirmed town for no reason c) didn't protect the IC that night and claimed to have protected Kasu who there was no reason anyone would kill and then acted like this confirmed him as town because his role made a lot of sense with the setup, something he clearly didn't feel at all when the role was claimed and d) then didn't protect the IC AGAIN despite that being the clearly correct play.

If you're scum you need a new argument and game plan and if you're town you need to reevaluate bruh.

[Thestatusquo]

I think you not WORKING to get Bulge yeeted D3 is just a concrete example of a game-spanning trend of you not doing much to try to progress the game despite being the highest poster overall. I was the only one D3 even starting to try to get a wagon going.

This is just completely inaccurate description of my play. I strongly pushed a noraa yeet day 1 and 2. I pushed bulge day 3. I think its a valid critique of my play on day 4 because I was sincerely confused because multiple people told me that bulge was likely town because of setup construction despite the fact that my gut was screaming bulge was still scum. So I backed down, which I got attacked for. But I don't care about getting attacked if I'm making the correct play. But even on day 4 I would say this is a disingenuous description of my play. I was the first person to suggest no elim. I was the first person to argue for no elim. I was the first person to vote no elim. The claim that somehow I just gave up trying to have input on day 4 is wrong because I made my opinions on the best play known when no one else was talking about it and pushed it until it happened.

Like you can say these word but if you look at my actual actions they're just straight up not true.

Now if you could please answer the question I've now asked you twice.

[Thestatusquo]

And the rest of the question? Why is this like pulling teeth.

[Thestatusquo]

FWIW I think its pretty clear the scum team is the bulge and gamma. I'm up in the air on the third. Blitzo has pretty firmly cemented himself in my mind as town today I think, so that leaves a third of pooky/the worst/kasu.

Genuinely unsure which of those it is.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm leaning towards voting Shea.

Then you'd better respond to my posts about the bulge specifically my analysis of his reaction to noraas claim or consider voting me a scum claim if bulge gets yeeted.

[Thestatusquo]

And the rest of the question? Why is this like pulling teeth.

It's been like this with him since like day 2 tbh.

FWIW I think its pretty clear the scum team is the bulge and gamma. I'm up in the air on the third. Blitzo has pretty firmly cemented himself in my mind as town today I think, so that leaves a third of pooky/the worst/kasu.

Genuinely unsure which of those it is.

As much as I hate to draw unflipped associatives, Gamma went through hell and high water to ensure pooky wasn't limmed day 1. Most of his play that day consisted of telling me pooky was town and voting any and every other wagon that popped up.

Cart before wagon though. We can have this discussion tomorrow after we flip the bulge.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not interested in picking at every little nitpick you've brought up, shea. I don't care to convince you of anything, my job is to convince blitzo and kasu and worsty to vote correctly or lose.

And yet you did try to nitpick the post and failed to respond to literally all of it.

lmao what im saying is don't expect a reply to everything. I've replied to every part of your posts that is worth replying. I feel no need to defend myself against random bullshit I know nobody else is going to buy hahahaha

Playing as caught scum is rough, so I forgive you for how obnoxious you're being.

[Thestatusquo]

If somehow I get yeeted instead of the most obvious scum player of all time I'm going to lose my shit. There hasn't even been a single real argument made against me. The only person who has even tried is gamma and his argument as I broke down, is just completely untrue if you look at my play. Not like "you didn't get bulge yeeted day 3" is a substantial attack anyway.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm leaning towards voting Shea.

you forgot the why buddy, as you have every time you've said you've wanted to vote for me.

[Thestatusquo]

Horrifying play from whichever of you is town.

Bulge played like garbage and you let him win. Unbefuckinglievable.

[Thestatusquo]

I see I need to not post before reading. But I am beyond upset about this. Bulge what the fuck was that play?

[Thestatusquo]

I think I am more upset about gamma and bulge being town than I am about literally anything else in this game.

[Thestatusquo]

Also I will be having a long post about not mafia coming up at some point.

He should not be allowed to join games if this is what he's going to do in them. It' puts a completely unfair burden on players to determine the alignment of someone who is literally not playing the fucking game.

[Thestatusquo]

Also I will be having a long post about not mafia coming up at some point.

He should not be allowed to join games if this is what he's going to do in them. It' puts a completely unfair burden on players to determine the alignment of someone who is literally not playing the fucking game.

I would feel the exact same way in your spot. Panzer wasn't any better either IMHO.

Panzer at least made some posts that had game content in them. I think the number of posts n_m made that had game content in them was actually 1 or 2.

[Thestatusquo]

lol the Traitor was the towniest person in the game

fuck you

[Thestatusquo]

gg wp to everyone except not mafia.

Umlaut thanks for running.

[Thestatusquo]

Also I will be having a long post about not mafia coming up at some point.

He should not be allowed to join games if this is what he's going to do in them. It' puts a completely unfair burden on players to determine the alignment of someone who is literally not playing the fucking game.

You should post it in Mafia Discussion

I will be putting it in a PM to the list mods.

[Thestatusquo]

like bruh if by some slim unlikely chance you're town this game I want you to take a long hard look at your town game because it is uhhhh not good.

No, if this is your town game it is very very very bad.

I'll talk to you OOG after this game is over if you want if you're town. Don't ever mistake winrate for playskill.

I stand by both of those statements 100%. You did not play well.

[Thestatusquo]

Btw I’m actively avoiding games with NM now : )

I believe he should not be allowed to play mafia if he plays like this. It's not playing the game.

[Thestatusquo]

Horrifying play from whichever of you is town.

Bulge played like garbage and you let him win. Unbefuckinglievable.

Bulge was town

Yes when I made this post I did not yet realize what had happened wrt the traitor.

[Thestatusquo]

I see I need to not post before reading. But I am beyond upset about this. Bulge what the fuck was that play?

obviously I fucked up pretty embarrassingly with the outworld push, but I don't think I did anything super wrong in the last few phases. I'd accept it if you think not targeting the IC last night was a misplay but I stand by my decision for the reasons I gave. no hard feelings on my end, I hope you feel the same.

I think not protecting the IC is really horrifyingly bad play. I understand your logic for doing what you did but I think you got too fancy and out-thought yourself. Obviously no hard feelings, its a game and we thought we were on different sides while we were screaming at each other.

[Thestatusquo]

Wait what happened n3 exactly? Did the scum actually no kill or does loyal not work the way I thought it does?

[Thestatusquo]

Ah. :/ That seems really strong.

[Thestatusquo]

it would have been interesting if you had protected outworldER though, since I had pretty much confirmed in my mind that you were town by the setup so we would have gone into the day with an IC and me thinking the scum team was gamma/pooky/the worst. We would have had to deal with the false clear on kasu though so we probably would have still lost.

[Thestatusquo]

If it's any consolation to those of you who were upset with his play, N_M will not be in any of the games I run going forward.

I know I expressed frustration with you in PMs for not replacing him earlier but I understand the decision you made. You and we shouldn't be put in that situation in the first place though, it's not your fault at all.

In the future I would recommend adding something in your rules to preempt people playing like this in the future. My rule set says the following:

"I will be especially harsh on players who are prod dodging. I will count posts with little or no game contact, or a pattern of posts with little or no game content as a prod dodge and will replace you out of my game. I expect activity and I expect everyone to be playing. See rule 1 about replacing out if you are not having fun or do not have the time to play."

and I think its a good rule to have just in case you need to deal with something like this.

[Thestatusquo]

it would have been interesting if you had protected outworldER though, since I had pretty much confirmed in my mind that you were town by the setup so we would have gone into the day with an IC and me thinking the scum team was gamma/pooky/the worst. We would have had to deal with the false clear on kasu though so we probably would have still lost.

no you wouldn't have needed to deal with Kasu at all - the setup said the mafia lost if the 2 ascetics died.

Right but we likely would have miselimmed because of it. My understanding of the game had kasu cleared if bulge was town which gave me a POE solve which was at least partially wrong. Although, it did have both you and the worst in it so there's at least a chance we would have gotten there.

I suspect we would have ended up miselimming gamma and losing though

[Thestatusquo]

Also once again want to mention how much I hate the "why is shea still alive argument" that seems to happen every time I'm alive past night one these days. Which is most games! I legitimately don't understand it.

[Thestatusquo]

It was a low powered game on both sides, it's how I ran my mini normal and I think it's more interesting, especially these days when town power is so high

no one wants you here.

[Thestatusquo]

I stand by both of those statements 100%. You did not play well.

you promised me to give feedback post game was my point.

Sure I'll write something up for you maybe tomorrow. I'm not in a good head space for it right now.

[Thestatusquo]

It was a low powered game on both sides, it's how I ran my mini normal and I think it's more interesting, especially these days when town power is so high

no one wants you here.

aw dont be like that. perhaps its a bit unfair but I'm sure there is a way to read him

Fundamentally N_M does not play the game. It should be disallowed to play the way he does the same way you're not allowed to play without reading your role PM.

[Thestatusquo]

I think my read of gamma as scum had nothing really to do with the hood in the end.

It had a lot to do with him expressing extreme confidence for what I saw as basically no reason. Saying you're 100% on someone being scum is something that you basically shouldn't ever be and claiming to be that certain over what I still see as really flimsy reasoning. A large part of why I was scumreading gamma at the end was because he seemed completely unwilling to even consider a world where I was town and that didn't strike me as something town would do.

Like I had a mechanically based reason to think bulge was scum and it turns out I shouldn't have even been 100% about that.

[Thestatusquo]

blitzo alt reveal?

[Thestatusquo]

I think hoods are a crappy mechanic almost in their entirety personally.

[Thestatusquo]

That interaction was hard to fix, I suspect; if you make the traitor non-Bulletproof, then we end up with scum being killed accidentally overnight even though they're massively winning, which is probably an even worse interaction.

I strongly disagree that giving scum the ability to misplay and kill badly is as bad mechanically as the mod actively misleading the town by giving them bad information. In the former the scum have agency and the traitor has agency. They can both play well to avoid negative consequences. Town can theoretically play well, as bulge did with the protect, and get punished maximally by it.

[Thestatusquo]

I should note that I'm not confident in my ability to balance traitor setups, and pretty much said as much in the review. In retrospect, the setup might have been a little scumsided. The players seemed to think it was townsided during the game itself, although I'm not sure how much of that sentiment was genuine and how much was scum blowing smoke in order to cast doubt on the Jailkeeper's claim.

Wrt this eh I don't really think it was super slanted one way or the other. I think the town played bad and lost because of it.