Mini Normal 2214 || Game Over!

[shiki]

I know none of you.

our paths crossed in reservoir dogs

[shiki]

Please guide me

[shiki]

coffee machine maintenance person

[shiki]

is that you? i gave the video a like

no but she does appear to have a coffee machine that needs some fixing

[shiki]

no but she does appear to have a coffee machine that needs some fixing

or at the very least know the location of one

[shiki]

VOTE: NAHA
(NotAHecticAlt)

do you believe it to be more of

(iam)notahecticalt

or

(ohno)nota(another)hecticalt(!)

[shiki]

(ohno)nota(another)hecticalt(!)

(ohno)nota(nother)hecticalt(!)

please make believe i did not mess this up the first time thankyou

[shiki]

@moderators

[4] Not Voting:

T3, Opposit3s, shiki, Messy Anne

claiming coffee machine maintenance person

As a coffee professional I will copy Anya's vote. Hopefully this grants me a discount later.

VOTE: Rae

[shiki]

VOTE: Anya
Someone wanted a lolhammer?

interesting execution

[shiki]

VOTE: Anya
Someone wanted a lolhammer?

interesting execution

to be fair the e-2 already on the wagon fakehammer is a difficult one to pull off

[shiki]

I think that Anya is worth keeping around for now at this time. They've done some of their town-meta actions. I'd rather focus on someone other than Anya for now.

please assume that i have also done some of my town-meta actions

[shiki]

I think that Anya is worth keeping around for now at this time. They've done some of their town-meta actions. I'd rather focus on someone other than Anya for now.

please assume that i have also done some of my town-meta actions

though i am, of course, unaware of what those would be as to not taint their usefulness here

[shiki]

i'll call u town if u think im town as well shiki.

are you not familiar with goncharova?

[shiki]

i'll call u town if u think im town as well shiki.

are you not familiar with goncharova?

or did you assume it a coincidence or just not want to assume

[shiki]

I'd like to see some comments on this.

i, uh, don't subscribe

[shiki]

mmm yes yes dwlee you can be town as well.

this good post

[shiki]

mmm yes yes dwlee you can be town as well.

this good post

assuming it is the wanting results thing unless you see something else guess i should have asked that first

[shiki]

mmm yes yes dwlee you can be town as well.

this good post

assuming it is the wanting results thing unless you see something else guess i should have asked that first

wait this was a question

? please

[shiki]

i think dwlee really thought they could catch someone out with a fake lolhammer. it's town spirit. does that answer u shiki

yes! it is the wanting results thing!

dwlee takes an action (in this case e-2 already on wagon fakehammer) > dwlee wants said action to have netted results > dwlee is likely town (or

knows

but eh)

[shiki]

do you give all fakewarhammers like that town credentials or is there something special about dwlee's?

it was a fakehammer that couldn't work and when i pointed it out dwlee provided evidence that it worked

[shiki]

I think we should all agree to wait at least 10ish hours until the non-morning people wake up (aka everyone else)

wait at least 10 hours and then what? do you want us to simply stop posting? until other people post? i am not following

[shiki]

i guess so but i don't think it's a very hard sculpture to make

have you seen a lot of mafia knowing it is about the results and not the actions?

[shiki]

Do any of you want me to explain my Group Theory any further or nah?

i guess if you could explain why you think it is more likely that there is at least one scum in each instead of it being that those were the players active at the time as you are also concerned about activity windows

[shiki]

Do any of you want me to explain my Group Theory any further or nah?

i guess if you could explain why you think it is more likely that there is at least one scum in each instead of it being that those were the players active at the time as you are also concerned about activity windows

like all six votes are between posts 43 and 61 right so is it that there was someone posting in that time who you think should have been on the wagon and is not? and is therefore suspicious?

[shiki]

Do any of you want me to explain my Group Theory any further or nah?

i guess if you could explain why you think it is more likely that there is at least one scum in each instead of it being that those were the players active at the time as you are also concerned about activity windows

like all six votes are between posts 43 and 61 right so is it that there was someone posting in that time who you think should have been on the wagon and is not? and is therefore suspicious?

i guess i do not understand how you could have gathered any information about the players not posting in the window either

[shiki]

I believe that the groups I made contain at least one scum because I find it unlikely that the wagon was entirely driven by town, especially because I find some of the members on the wagon scummy (see: Sigmund). It is entirely possible that there were no scum on Anya's wagon, in which case my Group Hypothesis is incorrect, but I find this possibility unlikely.

Essentially: It is unlikely that Anya got to E-1 given the circumstances of it (It happening in the early game) without scum players nudging the town to bandwagon.

doesn't this assume that anya is town and also why would it not be possible that all three mafia are on the wagon i guess i am still struggling to see the conclusions here as more than 'these are the players on the wagon' and they each have 'less than random' chance of being mafia even though you say it is unlikely to be town driven

[shiki]

'less than random'

right so game is 9:3 and you are saying this wagon of six players contains at least one mafia because mafia if active at the time would be on the wagon?

[shiki]

you have just created groups that give the same weight to players who were inactive at the time of the wagon as to players who were active and not on the wagon and that doesn't seem like the best way to apply the data gained from the wagon if you are going to try to do so and everyone on the wagon is considered the same;

not hectic's only post is their contribution to the wagon; should we really consider that the same as anya's self-vote in terms of likelihood of being mafia?

there are just so many of these to make your groupings mean almost exactly 'these are the players on the wagon' to me

[shiki]

do you give all fakewarhammers like that town credentials or is there something special about dwlee's?

it was a fakehammer that couldn't work and when i pointed it out dwlee provided evidence that it worked

was hoping someone would point out the binding of isaac game but alas

[shiki]

Dwelee seems townier.

just when i was starting to think hm maybemaybe

[shiki]

shiki could be town.

was this a necessary step towards moving your rvs vote? or did the events just coincide for you?

[shiki]

I win by swinging my sword around

i think what you're noticing here is the green sword of good that came with my role pm. it is the most powerful of weapons, but it is far too heavy for me. i cannot carry it, so i drag it behind me, and when i need to wield it the only way i can do so is by spinning to gain momentum.

[shiki]

Dwelee seems townier.

just when i was starting to think hm maybemaybe

???

i was thinking about dwlee and how much weight i was giving to the fakehammer and also possibly making potential connections that weren't there and thinking about your previous comments about dwlee's tone which is not something i read very well (tone in general, not dwlee's tone specifically) when i came across your comment of seeming townier now

[shiki]

Hem, I understand you want to get information from Sigmund, but he doesn't seem willing to give it up. Can we please move onto someone else?

if you are going to traffic direct you also have to drive otherwise it feels for show

[shiki]

Wait Shiki you're not voting anyone. Do you... Like, need stronger reads or something?

i haven't felt strongly about a vote yet/wasn't necessary for me to rvs/do not like to add noise to vote data

[shiki]

not the biggest believer in 'wagons are good!!!!' it turns out

[shiki]

Well, for one a player got to E-1 on the outskirts of RVS

but also a lot of things right

[shiki]

Shiki vote someone challenge.

i know not to reply this with 'why' based on past experience; though it also does make me wonder about the familiarity of those questioning my not voting with said past experience,

[shiki]

Shiki, do you have a readlist as of yet?

i mean, i could compile all of my thoughts on each player if you really wanted but but weighing things like

jake is doing things i know i am supposed to townread but i don't feel like we're much closer to solving the game because of them

vs

messy anne and dwlee99 both referenced my not voting and monkey once pushed me for like ten pages to vote and it doesn't seem impossible that they are aware of this

seems like a not particularly helpful exercise

[shiki]

weighing things

seems like a not particularly helpful exercise

if you were presenting this in a 'let me organize your thoughts into something actionable' way sure maybe but that's a team effort and i am not sure we are the team for that mission

[shiki]

[shiki]

good morning

[shiki]

you're procrastinating on this game, aren't you?

? i am currently reading game and tallying votes; so if i were previously procrastinating i would say now is the time i am not

[shiki]

^ if you squint you can really see johnny/not hectic/t3

[shiki]

VOTE: Jake.
I reread their iso and didn't like the behavior aroundthe Anya wagon at all. Like it almost felt like a fakrsolve to get towncred.

^ if you squint you can really see johnny/not hectic/t3

[shiki]

^ if you squint you can really see johnny/not hectic/t3

Incorrect.

why do you think not hectic asked about someone voting for jake over you? after saying that they thought it was more likely you were mafia because scummy by yourself + connection to jake?

[shiki]

Because I'm town and he is a townie wanting to know someone elses reasoning?

why do you think they're town?

[shiki]

also i do not understand how 'because i'm town' possibly answers that question as not hectic has stated they believe you not to be town

[shiki]

Solving the game and reads I agree with.

such as 't3 is the most likely mafia'? or 't3 is jake's likely partner'? (though not hectic's post about the partner thing was a super mess as it also included posts directed to anya???)

[shiki]

Okay sigmund is town.

Okay sigmund is town.

Could you elaborate on this?

Okay sigmund is town.

Could you elaborate on this?

It's the deliberate attention grabbing stuff scum usually want to avoid early game.

Okay sigmund is town.

Could you elaborate on this?

It's the deliberate attention grabbing stuff scum usually want to avoid early game.

Do you think this is a usual game?

Sigmund seems to be acting consistently here. Without knowing what their main is (if they are an alt), I can't conclusively say for sure if this is for this one game, or if they have any completed games that I can drool over.

I checked to see if he had a wiki page, but he didn't.

I doubt Sigmund just gives up his main account here.

sigmund could be town but i have no clue what his goal is with his flopping around on the ground like a fish

Do you have any thoughts about the game, not regarding Sigmund?

these interactions feel partnery

like everyone really look at this and tell me how the bottom two posts were included but then:

My tentative gun to head solve is Rae/T3/Jake at the moment. Rae has also displayed a similar level of uncharitableness. I initially put them as town earlier, based on 2 posts but after reading their entire ISO, and reading the rest of the players and trying to sort them, Rae ended up above T3+Jake. I'd say there's a good chance I'm wrong on this read and I'm misreading someone higher in my reads but I like this as a starting point for a solve/PoE.
Johnny is also on my radar low on my list, and could slot into that team as well.

However I don't believe the whole scumteam piles onto a townie this early very often, so I'm a bit noncommittal to this solve.
Dwlee + Shiki + monkey are my town pile
Anya + Messy Anne are right below in townleans
Sigmund I would put at a leantown null here.
Opposites slot hasn't spoken - could be PoE'd however
Rae and Johnny are below null. Not quite scummy but there were some posts that said "yeah this could be town actually".
Jake + T3 are firmly in my scumread at this point. T3 moreso because of the associative with Jake here. I've explained already these 2.

anya is town? but jake and t3 partnered?

[shiki]

hunger games

i think there should be a role that works like a gladiator but they choose another player in the game and those two players are phased out and a replacement queue post is made to recruit one player and those three players play a mini game and the two winners are returned to the game in alts creates for this purpose (katniss and peeta)

[shiki]

i think hectic's town the swimming pool is way deeper than it was when i was wolf with them

i dunno trying to reverse engineer the post i quoted above from a town perspective proving very difficult maybe you can help?

[shiki]

town perspective would be that those 3 are their bottom wolf reads and not a team theory based on interactions

... but the bottom two quoted posts are both directed to you

[shiki]

town perspective would be that those 3 are their bottom wolf reads and not a team theory based on interactions

... but the bottom two quoted posts are both directed to you

oh wait maybe i was unclear, i was talking about reverse engineering 471

[shiki]

town perspective would be that those 3 are their bottom wolf reads and not a team theory based on interactions

... but the bottom two quoted posts are both directed to you

oh wait maybe i was unclear, i was talking about reverse engineering 471

like how does that post happen with the two bottom posts quoted to come to the conclusion that t3 and jake are likely partners and you are town

[shiki]

Jake and T3 are their bottom wolf reads

so although Jake has a strange interaction with Sigmund and i i think they're formulating their top 3 wolf reads rather than a perfect team based on those interactions since otherwise they think sigmund/i are townish or something

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

i feel like

they are saying look at these interactions that feel partnery, right?

to come to the conclusion that jake and t3 are potentially partnered?

but... some of those interactions they are saying to look at are not between jake and t3? they are between you and t3, about sigmund

so how would those interactions aid in the partnery interactions?

[shiki]

so how would those interactions aid in the partnery interactions?

as you are town to them,

so it doesn't make sense outside of them creating a narrative to me,

[shiki]

it might be bc jake/t4 had 5 interact posts quoted but there was only 1 of me

i don't think that's wolfy on its own unless you have some greater grander scoop lying in the freezer

2 are directed to you, the second to last post jake made that is quoted there is also a reply to you saying something about sigmund,

also feels like positioning, that's why johnny also included while squinting

[shiki]

maybe they were just quoting everything they found partnery going through Jake's iso

and then formed the conclusion later after looking at evidence and saw most of them were between t4/jake

all five are on the same page, i think they mistakenly quoted extra posts while trying to provide evidence of the conclusion they had already reached for narrative purposes

[shiki]

all five are on the same page, i think they mistakenly quoted extra posts while trying to provide evidence of the conclusion they had already reached for narrative purposes

but as always i ask for other people's opinions (and others in addition to anya should weigh in on this please) because sometimes i am impossibly far off

[shiki]

there's a 2min gap between 470 and 471 so they must've been collected then wouldn't they take more time if constructing narration

although i love the theory

hmm. so you think they would not have made this mistake if mafia? because would have been more careful to make sure the posts actually fit the narrative of jake and t3 partnered that not hectic was trying to present? while pushing jake much more than t3 and even questioning someone about voting t3 over jake? while not hectic was saying they believed t3 more likely to be mafia than jake?

[shiki]

hmm. so you think they would not have made this mistake if mafia? because would have been more careful to make sure the posts actually fit the narrative of jake and t3 partnered that not hectic was trying to present?

this doesn't make a lot of sense to me because i just don't see how town makes this mistake

[shiki]

not even not hectic wants to explain 471 to me

[shiki]

how do the posts between jake and anya fit in? the last two

[shiki]

how do the posts between jake and anya fit in? the last two

286 and 287 are both directed to anya (who you said you think is town) and i do not understand how it implicates jake and t3 as partners

pedit: hm

[shiki]

... but that's not interacting with sigmund

[shiki]

oh sorry got confused about who you were replying to, hmhm

[shiki]

shiki what do you think of Jake?

seems townier than most of the wagon

[shiki]

shiki what do you think of Jake?

seems townier than most of the wagon

Names.

you johnny t3

[shiki]

do you just not read my posts?

[shiki]

What's scummy about me?

still having trouble seeing how that post was made, though need to look at it more with what you said, the way you said i was town then discussed with johnny then said forgot then remembered when monkey pointed out what he thought was towny seemed pretty ??? to me, interactions with johnny awkward,

[shiki]

do you just not read my posts?

Yeah the vast majority are just questions and then the rest looks like discrediting.

yup yup yup

[shiki]

Are you preflip associating me with a scumread?

yes? your stance on t3/jake doesn't make sense as you say t3 more likely scum but keep only pushing jake and johnny hard committed to 'not t3' so the positioning makes sense when i squint

[shiki]

And I'm currently browsing your previous games to see what your voting habits actually are.

odds on you coming back with a year old game where i voted early instead of one of many where i did not seems high but have at it

[shiki]

What do you think about now that he answered it?

need clearer head to look at again

[shiki]

shiki... how is Jake town?

trying to do towny things

[shiki]

shiki... how is Jake town?

trying to do towny things

like i get that they could be for show and have sometimes felt they were but a very wise person once told me to weigh the trying to do towny things much higher than the possibility that they could be doing them for town credit

[shiki]

Isn't everyone trying to at least appear to do towny things.

not like the trying to get other players involved in the game or the presenting theory for feedback thing

even if not gone about well to me that's why i said earlier that it felt like

like we weren't closer to solving the game because of them but that doesn't mean not town

[shiki]

shiki, I'm disappointed because that read is too shallow for you and now I'm thinking maybe you're scum with him.

you were in the game where the doing town things was explained to me, so

[shiki]

i didn't miss it? assuming you're just trying to get me to look at what led to this again:

Like seriously consider the POV he's presenting here:

Hi, I'm Jake The Wolfie. I townlean HEM because of his Sigmund push and I agree with him! Oh, what's this? Sigmund is trying to counterwagon him? Sigmund, a guy that I'm scumreading and whose scumminess I agree with? Better join his wagon, I guess! Hey, Monkey! Make a case why you're town! Make content! I won't answer your reasonable questions of why I'm voting you, because I'm not the one at L-1 here. Oh, what's that? You think I'm scummy for voting you? Well, by trying to engage me here, you're scum. I'm sorry if you're town, but I'm content with my vote.

Jake will say I'm misrepresenting here. I won't. This is exactly what happened during that period. He claims this is a valid method to sort me.

[shiki]

I never said t3 more likely scum

Jake + T3 are firmly in my scumread at this point. T3 moreso because of the associative with Jake here. I've explained already these 2.

what does moreso mean here then?

[shiki]

I never said t3 more likely scum

Jake + T3 are firmly in my scumread at this point. T3 moreso because of the associative with Jake here. I've explained already these 2.

what does moreso mean here then?

assumed it meant t3 more so because individually scummy + jake associative

[shiki]

Yes, but you didn't make a comment on it, but instead framed it like it was just about Jake being "towncred grabber"

no? i said that i thought things jake was doing were potentially for towncred. i wasn't referring to the above specifically. though that sequence feels more like jake being standoffish to me more than mafia indicative.

[shiki]

I argue that the entire progression is not genuine at all and meant to place a meaningless vote. Wouldn't that be mafia-indicative? Could you believe the sequence of events he made during that time as an actual town process?

yeah i don't find it all that different from you trying to say i am potentially jake's partner simply because i haven't agreed with this specific post you made

[shiki]

shiki, what are you doing? you are misframing me. i think you are potentially jake's partner because you have omitted some critical things about his wagon from your read on him that you have not made a comment on, and now i'm forcing you to comment on it and I didn't think I had to.

yesyes you frame things and present them without misrepresenting anyone and you make sure to tell us in advance that others will say you are misrepresenting when you are not but we are misrepresenting you

[shiki]

yeah i don't find it all that different from you trying to say i am potentially jake's partner simply because i haven't agreed with this specific post you made

if you would elaborate this more, I would like to hear it.

you say i 'omitted' critical things that i read and didn't agree with your view of and therefore i might be jake's partner

jake says you might be mafia because refusing to answer questions while under pressure that you disagreed with

[shiki]

they just feel like similar thought processes to me.

[shiki]

it reads like chainsaw defense, and why wouldn't I read it like that?

??? doesn't a chainsaw defense have to involve me thinking you are mafia? which i do not

[shiki]

At this point i'm not as sure and feel as though shiki could be scum that is trying to take advantage of Jake suspicion and is scum themselves and trying to distance away from the wagon and get towncred from it and then push people such as myself later to chain mislims.

ah yes have you tried applying the thing you applied to johnny for some reason to me

[shiki]

At this point i'm not as sure and feel as though shiki could be scum that is trying to take advantage of Jake suspicion and is scum themselves and trying to distance away from the wagon and get towncred from it and then push people such as myself later to chain mislims.

ah yes have you tried applying the thing you applied to johnny for some reason to me

the uh 'scumrange'

[shiki]

you didn't mention that Jake's question was "make a case why you're town". do you think this was a valid question to sort someone?

not a useful one. but do you think jake as town only asks valid questions? if so, could you explain why

[shiki]

you say i 'omitted' critical things that i read and didn't agree with your view of and therefore i might be jake's partner

you can quote me, because I said what I really meant not far from this post. i didn't care that you disagreed with it, just that it was never mentioned. and then I had to do this to understand what you thought about it.

yeah i get that you run at people i've played with you before why did you think i thought you were mafia for it though???

[shiki]

and then I had to do this to understand what you thought about it.

but also you can just ask me specifically what you want to know. you do not have to pressure me and decide i am mafia for not commenting on something. takes less pages.

[shiki]

I never said t3 more likely scum

Jake + T3 are firmly in my scumread at this point. T3 moreso because of the associative with Jake here. I've explained already these 2.

what does moreso mean here then?

[shiki]

At this point i'm not as sure and feel as though shiki could be scum that is trying to take advantage of Jake suspicion and is scum themselves and trying to distance away from the wagon and get towncred from it and then push people such as myself later to chain mislims.

ah yes have you tried applying the thing you applied to johnny for some reason to me

the uh 'scumrange'

Are you outside of your own scumrange?

Can you clarify if you think this is the case?

i do not know, honestly. i do not think of things in that sense. i was more trying to say that it felt very out of place the difference in how you are approaching me here vs johnny.

[shiki]

i thought your Jake town read omits the circumstances of my wagon and dismisses the wagon as "Jake was doing things that can seem like towncred-grabbing" when i was still waiting on your comment on the other thing. and now, you are seemingly crossed while we talk about it. it seemed like your reason for town-reading him and defending him was shallow, which makes me question your association.

i am not crossed i simply become frustrated when it is a bunch of posts that just seem like an issue in communication that could simply be solved by you having asked about the circumstances of your wagon. which i know is my own fault for having caused the miscommunication in the first place as i was talking about why i thought jake was potentially scummy not why you thought jake was potentially scummy there.

[shiki]

I don't know Shiki's meta, thus I cannot make that assertion, however if Jake flips green it certainly feels this is what they are trying to do subtly, that is until I called it out.

you've played with me as mafia but it would be unfair for me to cite that as a typical game due to the circumstances of it

[shiki]

I don't know Shiki's meta, thus I cannot make that assertion, however if Jake flips green it certainly feels this is what they are trying to do subtly, that is until I called it out.

you've played with me as mafia but it would be unfair for me to cite that as a typical game due to the circumstances of it

Avalon?

student council

[shiki]

VOTE: jake

you guys post too much

not hectic and sigmund both super suspicious for this

uh vote count at top of last page has jake self voting but it's actually not hectic

[shiki]

mistakes were made with johnny.

?

[shiki]

i should reconsider monkey man given that i was convinced in my poor solve.

eh the post about dialed up to 11 still good i think

[shiki]

i should reconsider monkey man given that i was convinced in my poor solve.

eh the post about dialed up to 11 still good i think

also do not really see how that push plus that flip equals monkey is town now

[shiki]

i should reconsider monkey man given that i was convinced in my poor solve.

eh the post about dialed up to 11 still good i think

also do not really see how that push plus that flip equals monkey is town now

like monkey makes show of wanting me to contribute (presumably because he thinks i am useful to town if he is town) then continues pushing through bad wagon anyway with only regard to what i say being 'ah shiki maybe mafia with jake!'

[shiki]

by the way i meant jake. i still think johnny is town. i dont know what anya sees but im sure she'll give some really fuckin' choice similies for it

johnny reads like a kid lost in the grocery store he couldn't possibly be scum

were you

thinking about this a lot during the night

[shiki]

still think dwlee is probably town as well. just kill the lhf and you should see some red. that to me is T3/anne/sigmund. i should reconsider monkey man given that i was convinced in my poor solve.

this also included in the above question

[shiki]

I guess I just don't trust that this game is as easy as all that

as easy as all what?

[shiki]

i did mean jake. johnny is my strongest townread if that sounds shocking to u.

no i am asking because it seems like a weird way to start the day just stating reads as if daystart and new information to process has not been factored that's why i ask about night

[shiki]

I guess I just don't trust that this game is as easy as all that

as easy as all what?

Finding scum in the lhf. Maybe I'm just skiddish about potentially miselimming T3 again

oh i agree with this. i am not sure it makes a lot of sense. i am also curious about messy anne's classification as lhf but i became distracted.

[shiki]

I'm just skiddish about potentially miselimming T3 again

though i'd also like to note this is a somewhat convenient day two stance after your day one stance with regards to t3

[shiki]

though i'd also like to note this is a somewhat convenient day two stance after your day one stance with regards to t3

i meant to include the maybe in the quote, as it implied that you are now open to it, and so forth

[shiki]

i still think monkey is town and sorry i should have taken off the accelerator on jake because he did towntell at the end and I let myself confbias.

putting vote back on after saying 'not going to allow a quickhammer' is !!! !!! !!!

[shiki]

there is 100% scum within this range here - people who just were pushing the wagon up further btw

have you checked overlap with those pushing up other wagons (anya/jake)?

[shiki]

I wanna more check overlap between monkey/jake

i meant anya/monkey, as jake's wagon was the one being discussed, my apologies

[shiki]

Also softing this here but someone here should have potentially gotten a message from me, this will potentially be useful info down the line based on what the result is.

oo we are inching towards everyone say everything they know and let's make sense of it i like it

[shiki]

Let's just say it leans Johnny town for ~reasons~.

ehhh liking this approach less and less compared to

okay mass claim time

[shiki]

No need for massclaim, if we miss today then tomorrow we should.



Although first person to claim vig gets a TR from me because of the way setup is built

nah feels way more advantageous today but would like to wait until everyone checks in

only 18 12-player mini-normals in last ten years of archives

[shiki]

only 18 12-player mini-normals in last ten years of archives

or rather only 18 that fit the criteria of this game

[shiki]

The only point for Sigmund here is that he is unaware that I'm not actually Hectic although that may more be a feature of a scumteam who did not catch my mainslip.

it is hard to imagine that you believe that sigmund believes you are hectic or any of the other alt related things you have proposed

[shiki]

I believe Johnny that we shouldn't elim T3 for reasons also

so you believe we should not eliminate t3 for 'reasons', not hectic believes johnny is town for 'reasons', and johnny is now maybe reevaluating with regards to t3

[shiki]

actual scum motive

This because I don't see the point in doing any mass claim right now from town perspective.

why not? what is the downside? to you find it unlikely to solve the game?

[shiki]

actual scum motive

This because I don't see the point in doing any mass claim right now from town perspective.

why not? what is the downside? to you find it unlikely to solve the game?

and if so, why?

[shiki]

VOTE: monkey

[shiki]

Also what's lhf

low hanging fruit, though rae seemed to be using a different definition than is normally meant by this

[shiki]

as it is, I think it will help scum solve the game faster than we solve it.

opposed to a mass claim because you think it will help scum solve the game but you are happy to imply you

might

have knowledge about t3's alignment

[shiki]

i would like to begin the mass claim with monkey claiming, and not hectic should probably be second

[shiki]

do you really believe this makes me scum? or are you just voting to pressure me into a claim?

it certainly makes you more likely to be mafia; being opposed to a mass claim but potentially giving yourself the benefit of claiming without actually having to claim or even be committed to that stance is potentially mafia-adjacent yes

[shiki]

it certainly makes you more likely to be mafia; being opposed to a mass claim but potentially giving yourself the benefit of claiming without actually having to claim or even be committed to that stance is potentially mafia-adjacent yes

like if you were afraid of mafia having any knowledge you wouldn't say you townread t3 for reasons right? because if you are town that gives the mafia knowledge, so you could be trying to wifom the mafia, which would be bad because it helps the mafia by misleading the town,

[shiki]

so there aren't a lot of options left to see it as town behaviour, so +mafia

[shiki]

you think i'm softing PR?

no i think you are being vague and potentially softing pr while also being able to deny you are doing so

[shiki]

interesting that your first reaction to slots you thought softed PR is to make them claim.

i would like everyone to claim, as i have already stated

[shiki]

interesting that your first reaction to slots you thought softed PR is to make them claim.

i would like everyone to claim, as i have already stated

and starting with the slots taking 'i

might

have knowledge' stances so they have to commit seems logical

[shiki]

why?

seems the best way to solve the game, much more likely to result in finding the mafia than another day like yesterday, for setup reasons it makes much more sense to do so today than tomorrow

[shiki]

Why are we massclaiming on d2 again?

do you believe in the current direction of this game? have you thought about the implications of 3 mafia alive in 10 players right now, 2 dead vanilla town, 12 player game from the beginning, and a potential counterclaim situation tomorrow?

[shiki]

why? this is what i'm missing. you reiterate that it's the best way to solve the game, but i'm not seeing why

because it does not feel as though the current direction of the game will result in a town victory and the best way i know to solve the game from here is a mass claim

[shiki]

And I like that bet better than outing them all today and hoping for the best

it isn't 'hoping for the best' when we can just use the gained knowledge to solve the game, i do not understand why leaving the game solvable is more advantageous to you than solving the game here,

[shiki]

your claim is that the current direction of the game will not result in a town victory. support that claim. what about the current direction of the game makes you think mass claim is the best way to solve it? if you say "2 dead vanilla townies" then that's meaningless until you demonstrate what 2 dead vanilla townies imply and why it makes the game unsolvable without a massclaim.

two dead vanilla town implies that there are very likely only 3 to 5 vanilla town currently alive and mafia will be likely to claim a role, resulting in a potential counterclaim, like have you thought about the setup at all

[shiki]

your claim is that the current direction of the game will not result in a town victory. support that claim. what about the current direction of the game makes you think mass claim is the best way to solve it?

because you continued pushing a bad wagon despite acting like you wanted my input? and sigmund and not hectic are the other two most active participants in the game and they both were extremely scummy at end of day yesterday and are now fighting with eachother?

[shiki]

What about the setup makes you think this?

otherwise they are trapped in vt poe, it isn't complicated

[shiki]

It was a good wagon and I'm glad Jake is out of the game. I wanted your input because I want everybody's input. I don't see how this is relevant to massclaiming?

it is relevant to my not trusting the direction of this game; also it is wild to say that was a good wagon and probably mafia indicative

[shiki]

how? because he flipped town? he was legitimately scummy and there was little he did to convince me that he was town.

he was not he was doing towny things as i explained to you but you ignored the towny things in favour of 'but his questions towards me were not useful and he was inconsistent' which aren't mafia indicative things like that's not how the game works

[shiki]

even you thought he was potenitally scummy

i said the towny things outweigh the fact that they could have scummy reasoning behind them

[shiki]

even you thought he was potenitally scummy

i said the towny things outweigh the fact that they could have scummy reasoning behind them

just as they always should, otherwise we are simply playing a game of

well this

could

be beneficial for mafia to say in this situation so is therefore mafia indicative about every towny action

[shiki]

when we discussed it, you also dismissed the things I said were mafia-indicative in favor of the town-indicative things that you said he was. you didn't debunk my claim.

i said your claim that they were mafia-indicative things was unreasonable because they were not mafia-indicative things

[shiki]

also i do not understand why we are relitigating this

[shiki]

it's better to have the information of Jake's alignment right now than to not have it, otherwise I will keep on thinking he's scum throughout the whole game and mislead myself.

if you're town you led a wagon on another town despite the objections of a townsfolk you have previously claimed to value the opinion of and you are now claiming it to be a good wagon

[shiki]

as i said, do not trust the direction of the game, you are a large part of the reason for that

[shiki]

what happens if the mafia doesn't claim PR and instead we just reveal who the PRs to the scum so they can kill them at night? as you said, we might still have VTs around who can potentially shield PRs from NK. with all your intelligence, I dont see you not recognizing this at all.

if no mafia claim pr we poe the mafia in the vanilla towns and the game is solved. it feels like you are simply opposed to the mass claim and not thinking through how it would work.

[shiki]

And what happens if everyone claims a different PR? Then we don't have counterclaims and there can be mafia in the list.

right and why would we not be able to figure out which pr claim was the mafia? i feel like this is one of the easiest ways normals are solved,

[shiki]

and how do you PoE 3 to 5 vanilla town properly without losing in LYLO? If you say scumhunting and by play, why don't we just do it all now and let the game take course naturally so we can get more information from dayplay?

because hunting for 1-2 town that the mafia cannot kill is much simpler than scumhunting the entire game, especially with how heavily weighted the activity is to a few of us

[shiki]

How many mislims do we have right now? do we have maximum 5 mislims?

? if we miselim twice now game is over

[shiki]

How many mislims do we have right now? do we have maximum 5 mislims?

? if we miselim twice now game is over

10 to 8 to 6, 3 mafia

[shiki]

mafia fakeclaims and we reveal to mafia who the PRs are which makes this plan of yours not work.

this doesn't make the plan not work? we can simply determine which mafia is fakeclaiming

[shiki]

? if we miselim twice now game is over

and how many VTs will you have on your PoE? 3 to 5?

well if only two power roles are claimed that gives us 8 vanilla town claims and 2 confirmed town, of which 3 are mafia and 5 are vanilla town

so at most, 8, but depends on claims

[shiki]

If scumteam are all goons they have a lot of freedom to claim PRs that could exist under setups with non-vanilla mafia roles to counter them.

that also make sense within the setup?

[shiki]

i think average mafia play is being wildly overestimated here and also our ability as town is being underestimated

[shiki]

we can simply determine which mafia is fakeclaiming

i don't think it will be that simple.

i don't see how you don't think that this is a net loss on town's position.

have you found it to not be that simple in past games with me?

[shiki]

have you found it to not be that simple in past games with me?

as i believe each game you've played with me in which i was town was solved in this manner

[shiki]

have you found it to not be that simple in past games with me?

as i believe each game you've played with me in which i was town was solved in this manner

[shiki]

shiki, i don't underestimate you, but right now, you are overestimating yourself.

it wasn't even me that solved those games in either of those cases. it was simply the process and i can help provide information. i am not saying do this i will solve the game, i am saying this seems way more likely to result in the game being solved than continuing to trust players who have been scummy to lead us to victory.

[shiki]

as i believe each game you've played with me in which i was town was solved in this manner

iirc we have only played twice? with one you're town and i'm scum, and two we're both scum. have we played a third time?

three miccro blitzes

first i was town and you were mafia,
second we were mafia together,
third we were both town

[shiki]

I won't support this

do not worry, it will likely not need your support as much as your participation as t3 seems to have us well on our way:

Look either this is scum grand conspiracy where everyone in the neighborhood is scum or johhny and hectic are correct town.

which also potentially explains the vibes i was feeling earlier

[shiki]

Look either this is scum grand conspiracy where everyone in the neighborhood is scum or johhny and hectic are correct town.

though i do not understand how you reached the conclusion they are both town if you are town, maybe steps were omitted here

[shiki]

Okay so how do we know if we have 4 PRs and it makes sense because scum have PRs too or if a PR or two is lying and the mafia are mostly goons?

by determining which of these seem more likely to us based on the prs that have been claimed

[shiki]

For instance, as a basic example. If there was a doc + cop claim there could be a roleblocker, or the doc claim could be fake.

i understand that it isn't foolproof but i also do not understand how waiting an additional day is solving this particular issue either. in the case of your example we would gain a cop check and a potential doctor save but with increased odds of us eliminating a town today.

[shiki]

We potentially get a mafia flip today which can help solve the game.

right but we are more likely to get a mafia flip by claiming, more information to inform our decisions and so forth

[shiki]

VOTE: Messy Anne
What if we went with this?

why messy anne?

[shiki]

VOTE: Messy Anne
What if we went with this?

why messy anne?

i am curious as it seems an unnatural place to begin, as messy anne was not on the wagon and so forth

[shiki]

Didn't see that kill coming.

also, uh, who did you think would be killed?

[shiki]

I believe Johnny that we shouldn't elim T3 for reasons also

so you believe we should not eliminate t3 for 'reasons', not hectic believes johnny is town for 'reasons', and johnny is now maybe reevaluating with regards to t3

sigmund and i just finished a game with northsidegal, at the end of which see said the following about 'reasons':

as a side note (and to sort of continue what i said a bit earlier), i think this is final confirmation for me that i should almost always try to ignore ~reasons~, by which i mean i should never ever take thinking someone is a power role as an excuse to avoid reading them. in this case it didn't really turn out to hurt me, but the fact that i didn't update on what should have been an obvious fact for a while just because i saw the traffic analyst crumb and filed uneven away is definitely a mistake. in previous games i haven't been so lucky, and people i've ignored because of thinking that they must be a power role turned out to be scum.

which is the stance i am adopting towards these reads

[shiki]

Oh-that was just a phrase, not a claim.

...

are you a traitor?

[shiki]

see

*she

[shiki]

Oh-that was just a phrase, not a claim.

...

are you a traitor?

this is the phrase being referred to here:

Look either this is scum grand conspiracy where everyone in the neighborhood is scum or johhny and hectic are correct town.

[shiki]

no.......?

could you explain what you meant by nieghbourhood in 1037 and also how you determined that johnny and not hectic are either scum with you(?) or town?

[shiki]

information is good for town, especially if it is information from a neighbourhood as the odds that the mafia already have it are significantly greater than random

[shiki]

I hope it is a day vigilante

thinking about the potential for a vigilante and also suggesting no elimination very interesting

[shiki]

I went into this game suspecting a vig cause 12p and then no one got shot

right but if there is a vigilante wouldn't a no elimination be a very bad idea?

[shiki]

right but if there is a vigilante wouldn't a no elimination be a very bad idea?

so you being aware of potential vigilante and suggesting no elimination is pretty ???

[shiki]

Vig should have shot last night to get us off even. It's possible vig no shot but they should have.

could also be a n2 or loyal or something there are a lot of possibilities it just feels like an incongruent thought process for you to have suggested the no elimination with this awareness

[shiki]

Suggestion is a very strong word for floating the idea to gauge reactions, which no one did til now.

i guess to me the way you asked about it made it seem like you were in favour of it

[shiki]

1 is probably a traitor

why's that

[shiki]

3:9 with 3 groupscum would be evil

only 2/18 traitor games in the dataset, but it is noteworthy to me that you bring up traitor after i asked t3 if they were a traitor

[shiki]

and

why did you think the gamma emerald kill was unexpected and who did you think would be killed?

[shiki]

the lack of things happening in the game is making me snooze.

somehow a handful of players who voted for jake, who was trying to move the game and get the less involved players involved, are now all saying 'someone should do something' or 'don't let game stagnate'

it's like, multiple people also say hm, 'wonder why gamma emerald died', who was also quite active in his limited time with us, while not actually looking into why that might be

mafia probably angling for this situation yes? does that seem an unreasonable conclusion from the wagon and nightkill?

[shiki]

T3 I wanna see the cool thing happen,

also dwlee, you saying you were trying to gain information about whether others thought there might be a vigilante, and you pushing to gain information from t3, while saying wtf to rae when they claimed pr and being opposed to a mass claim, do you see why this might seem scummy to me?

[shiki]

No, I don't see it. T3 promised something to happen. I expect a follow-through. Rae claiming PR and mass claim I don't think are going to be super beneficial to us.

it feels like you are trying to gain information for yourself as opposed to for the town,

i do not disagree that t3 should give us the information, but i do not see why you think you should be given the information you want but other information is not beneficial,

[shiki]

The way you treat yourself as so enlightened for not voting out Jake is mad cap btw, feeling like you might be evil here trying to take credit for knowing Jake wasn't scum.

i am just frustrated by a wagon like that going through and then people saying things like 'why is noone doing anything' when a) i am trying to do things but people are opposed to the things i am trying to do and b) it's pretty easy to conclude that the 'noone doing anything' is quite possibly the mafia's goal?? but noone seems to be reaching that conclusion for some reason so those kinda saying people should do something but not doing something themselves are suspicious to me

[shiki]

How is this gaining information for "myself" as opposed to for the town? Cause I didn't directly say "is there a vig?" Do you think the vig should claim if there is one? I don't.

yes i think the vigilante should claim, i think we should be taking as many steps as we can towards eliminating mafia today,

it is gaining information for yourself because you are trying to deduce if there is a vigilante or if others think there is a vigilante (which a vigilante would obviously think) while not making that information clear to everyone, right?

[shiki]

And then vig gets shot? Wow, that sure was helpful.

if we go two nights without someone being shot by a vigilante and then someone claims vigilante are you really going to believe them?

[shiki]

And then vig gets shot? Wow, that sure was helpful.

if we go two nights without someone being shot by a vigilante and then someone claims vigilante are you really going to believe them?

and if they are shot after they shoot someone they were going to be shot the next night after claiming their shot anyway right? so you've just provided information earlier instead of later? with no consequence?

[shiki]

This is my first normal in forever, so let me know if I'm completely off-base here with this, but games aren't supposed to be breakable by the town just saying their roles.

i mean, it's not as though i suggested a day one mass claim.

[shiki]

Vig could get two shots off claiming tomorrow instead of today unless there is a roleblocker.

does that seem like a good thing to you? as you are aware that one shot puts us on odds so two shots costs us if not a hit

[shiki]

like vigilante is good because a) first shot free, b) confirmable,

if vigilante just keeps shooting it turns out like the mystery box with the murder spree ability more often than not

[shiki]

Did I miss something or how do we know there is a vig?

we are simply discussing that there might be a vigilante based on 9:3 game (50% historically)

[shiki]

Can you vote Anne for me?

i still do not think this makes the most sense as a place to start with the wagoning here. why mess anne over not hectic/sigmund?

[shiki]

mess anne

*messy anne, sorry

[shiki]

You suggested one day two with no more information (given two VT flips).

this makes the mass claim better, not worse, by the way, but we do not have to rehash since i seem to be the only one firmly in support of

[shiki]

I could go for Sigmund too but you're not even on that wagon either so what are you doing with your vote right now?

voting for someone whose play has been very suspicious to me while observing the behaviours of others towards other wagons, what i assume one generally does with their vote

did you disagree with the ways in which i found monkey's play to be suspicious? and if so, is there a reason you did not point this out?

[shiki]

Sigmund's wagon is bad

definitely do agree with this though

[shiki]

Messy Anne is koba, right?

there's no way you think this right

[shiki]

Messy Anne is koba, right?

there's no way you think this right

like you and not hectic being super off about alt things feels too unreasonable to me