mini normal 2226; who won

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Flubber

Why should I make any kind of post toward Seanzie? I read the thread, I saw Flubber joining a convenient wagon for disingenuous reasons, I voted him.

This post is really terrible. It feels like scum taking an RVS interaction way too seriously.

Do you get similar feelings from 26/30 by Flubber? If not, what makes them feel different?

[ChaosOmega]

if that were almost anyone else, i'd start screaming for their head because they're obviously making it up as they go, but gut tells me this is not *completely* out of t3's townrange.

I have limited experience with T3, but this is about where I'm at with it as well.

-----

Seanzie, any thoughts about the Flubber/Umlaut interaction?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Lukewarm for being the temperature of a tauntaun.

VOTE: Alchemist21 no townie would ever subject the rest of town to this pun.

What changed?

You posted more.

Why is posting bad?

VOTE: seanzie

It isn't, necessarily.

What changed?

You posted more.

What about it was scummy?

Good question. Instead of entering with jokes or RVS, Alchemist seems to want to be friends with everyone.

am I missing something like...super obvious? he's literally acknowledging alch was cracking jokes and then saying to opposite after being pressured.

I get why someone

might

think it's trolling but given the context I really think u need to reexamine

The quotes here don't make it seem like he was pressured. You voted him and Gamma asked him in a non-accusatory way. If he was scum, I'd think he would be more careful since the push would be fabricated. What about this interaction makes you think he was pressured?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Lukewarm

post 71, joins the Flubber wagon with no comment on it what so ever.

Post 101, asks Seanzie for thoughts on the flubber interaction, but still has not voiced any thoughts on it themselves

Is my vote not a comment on what I think of the wagon?

Basically, posts 71 and 101 feel like scum trying to help the wagon pass while also not looking like they are the one leading the push. Asking Seanzie's opinion also felt like a manipulative way to get an extra vote on the wagon.

I'm trying to sort Seanzie. The vibe he gives off is like he's super serious right off the jump, the Flubber wagon was the biggest thing to happen in the game up to this point, and he didn't comment on it, which seemed odd to me.

It is not until 227 that he actually appears to be adding to the case, and that is after I have moved my vote, datsi has said they were starting to get town pings, and Aristeia removed her vote.

This feels like scum, but also never scum with Flubber, so if he does flip scum, flubber is probably lock town imo

And then 227 feels like scum realizing that their early day 1 miselim is starting to slip away, and finally stepping in to try and keep it on the table

If everyone is jumping off, why would I be so desperate as scum to keep on here? Wouldn't this draw attention to me as it has?

-----

I am not liking that Aristeia keeps asking other people before she votes/unvotes, like she is absolving herself of her votes.

VOTE: Aristeia

Doesn't mean I am willing to let them just avoid having any reads of their own

what would you like to talk about?

Any reads you have.

Weak or strong, scum or town, doesn't really matter, but would like for you to have opinions

Close to My Heart: Datisi

Beneath the Sky: Lukewarm, Umlaut, Seanzie

Sea of Dreams: Gamma Emerald, Titus, T3

Waves upon the Shore: ChaosOmega, Meg

The Long Winding Road: Alchemist, Flubber, Vulture

Datisi is the hero of our story, he is so handsome and cute and I would be so sad if he were scum, call it a wish of the heart, I think he is good. I could wax poetic for days about how amazing he is but I don't think you would like to read that? Besides it might embarrass him and I wouldn't want that.

mindmelded with Lukewarm on 50, I quite like his method of thinking, it feels natural.

Umlaut feels like he has purpose and direction that is going somewhere - he feels quite motivated to catch bad guys.

Seanzie gives me nice vibes, I can see where his questions are going and he feels fairly real to me.


Gamma/Titus/T3 I'm not quite as comfortable with but they've all done independently townish things that remind me of their towngames.


Chaos/Meg need to post more.


Alchemist feels too careful, it's like you say things with too many words and I think you don't have pure intentions, you remind me of my ex-boyfriend who would start talking quickly whenever he was trying to lie to me.

Flubber feels kind of forced to me, I don't think he is genuine, there's a certain awkwardness.

Vulture's one liners feel quite surface level and I think it's possible he slipped T3's alignment in 82

I like Aristeia's response and read list.

UNVOTE:

Am back from my VLA, and will probably give the game a reread later tonight

atm, I am roughtly at Datisi, Umlaut, Gamma, Aristeia feeling like town

The jump on and off of Aristeia doesn't feel natural to me. Did you scumread her when you voted her in 171?

-----

As for other reads I have, Umlaut, Seanzie, Vulture, and Datisi for town, something about Gamma is pinging me, but I can't really put it into words, so I'm ignoring it for now, still think Flubber is scum, the push on Seanzie and his post about mindmelding w/ Titus reads phony.

[ChaosOmega]

He votes for Lukewarm and then,

His first two lines are explain-y, as in "this is what I'm actually trying to do", the point he's making is that he did nothing wrong.

I find that tends to come from people who are scum and disagree with the manner in which they get caught.

Because if Lukewarm is scum, why would he even bother explaining to Lukewarm what he's actually trying to do?


"If everyone is jumping off, why would I be so desperate as scum to keep on here? Wouldn't this draw attention to me as it has?"

This line is just wifom.

He's also looking at Lukewarm jumping off me, but if he actually believes Flubber to be scum, he should be much more interested in how Lukewarm started the Flubber wagon and then jumped off of it rather than the interaction with me.

I don't know that Lukewarm is scum. Also, the first line is moreso to interact with him.

I am also interested in his jump off of Flubber, but I think his interaction with your slot has a weirder vibe. He votes you, tries being really nice not wanting to step on your toes at all, you post a readlist where he's town, and then he jumps off and says you're a top town read. It doesn't feel genuine.

aristeia, could you talk about why you voted chaosomega? i read his latest post, and something feels off about it, but i can't put my finger on why i feel that way. the only conscious idea i have is that it's odd he went for lukewarm and ignored my push on him, but... eh.

I am aware with my posts up to this point that I can be suspected, and that it won't all be by scum trying to mislim me. Something I didn't verbalize in my last post but was thinking is that it felt like Lukewarm was just latching onto your reason for voting me.

[ChaosOmega]

Is my vote not a comment on what I think of the wagon?

No

Wrong, it means I support it. Better luck next time.

If everyone is jumping off, why would I be so desperate as scum to keep on here? Wouldn't this draw attention to me as it has?

Would you call scum "describing a reason why they scum read the person they are currently voting" as desperate? I didn't, and wouldn't. That is a strange interpretation of my words.

The desperation part is in response to your 260, saying that Chaos "feels like scum realizing that their early day 1 miselim is starting to slip away, and finally stepping in to try and keep it on the table". This is not a strange interpretation of your words.

The jump on and off of Aristeia doesn't feel natural to me. Did you scumread her when you voted her in 171?

What does not feel natural to you? I said she did not have reads, and that was worrying to me. She gave a read list, and provided reasonings when asked.

I'm going to talk about this more further down, but it feels mechanical, like you're going through motions to look town and not actually scumhunting. It doesn't feel like you were trying to sort Aristeia, it feels like you were trying to buddy them and look productive while doing so.

As for other reads I have, Umlaut, Seanzie, Vulture, and Datisi for town, something about Gamma is pinging me, but I can't really put it into words, so I'm ignoring it for now, still think Flubber is scum, the push on Seanzie and his post about mindmelding w/ Titus reads phony.

See, this is what I find strange about your response. One of the things that I said was bothering me was that you don't have reads out there

As of now he has commented on T3, and Flubber, and thats it.

And even with the two of them, he has been stand offish of taking stances. Despite having interacted with T3, I have no idea if he thinks that T3 is townie or scummy? So that leaves Chaos's only read in thread to be flubber.

And, with Flubber, he also held back...

And you see me make that point. Apparently realize that you should put some reads out out, but then also don't realize that I had a point, and therefore valid reason to pressure you for reads?

There seems to me to be a bit of cognitive dissonance between the omgus voting me reaction (which when coming from town, I find normally comes from a place of feeling like the reasons the person is scum reading you are non-genuine), while also addressing my biggest concern about you in this way.

I saw you steal that point from Flubber's 232, along with your point about me trying to stay on wagon from Datisi's 230. You can try to frame it as OMGUS, but I'm attacking you because I think you're scum.

-----

Me: I see something I found suspicious about Flubber, so I vote him and explain my suspicions

Flubber: Explains his thought process behind the things that I found suspicious

Me: I moved my vote

----

Me: I see something that found suspicious about Aristeia, so I vote her and explain my suspicions

Aristeia: Responds to the thing that I found suspicious, and provides a read lsit

Me: I move my vote

----

Me: I see somethings Chaos has done that I find suspicious, so I vote him and explain my suspicions

Chaos:
~Vote: Luke
~actually I never did anything wrong, and and address the reasons Luke stated to scum read me and
~actually, wasn't Luke being suspicious earlier, when he did this other interaction with Aristeia
~(Of course, I never voiced any opinions on either Luke or Aristeia until Luke started voting me)

This doesn't feel like you're trying to find scum. It's like you're posting in a formulaic way trying to look good and can justify your actions.

I never said that I never did anything wrong, so that's a misrep. If anything, I imply the opposite in 266 when I say "I am aware with my posts up to this point that I can be suspected". And between my latest post and this one you're referencing, you hadn't yet made a complete about-face to have Ari as one of your top townreads after suspecting them for having no reads.

-----

285 from Alchemist feels weird to me bringing up his post count. It's not done explicitly, but it feels like he's trying to use that to show his towniness. I feel the same thing as Meg in 284 that I'm getting weird vibes from him, but I think there's a decent chance this is just playstyle difference, so I'm not really interested pushing there today.

I'm not going to be around until tomorrow around the same time. I want to look through Gamma's ISO in more detail next, but if anyone wants me to answer something in particular, feel free to ask.

[ChaosOmega]

Apologies, I'm back, should have declared a v/la. Reading back through what I've missed very hungover.

[ChaosOmega]

Still not crazy about Lukewarm. He responds to my last post in 432 taking a snipe at the most snipe-able part but doesn't respond to the substance of the post. I feel like I'm confbiasing at this point with Flubber/Lukewarm being my top 2 scumreads, but Lukewarm's 460/461 reads like trying to save his partner.

Reading MathBlade's catchup is a slog. Not sure if it's by design. One thing that I find weird, this post:

waiting for my hero.




Alchemist do you think Seanzie is a Mafia?

No. He feels more like low-hanging fruit to me and I think both he and I were interested in seeing who else would push him for voting me. It was notable to me after the first 2 votes that the people voting Seanzie were people who know me, but 2 could just be a coincidence and I wanted to see if there would be a pattern and if anyone would try to pocket me along the way. I wanted to see how it played out a bit more but I think we're past that point now.

For what it's worth I don't think Umlaut was wrong on Flubber but there's another part of me that thinks Flubber could have been pushing Seanzie's bad reasoning in his own way and it strikes me as odd that Umlaut went for Flubber and didn't make any comment towards Seanzie.

What are your reads looking like so far?

VOTE: Alchemist21[/b]

Someone doesn’t have to mention a second player during pushing a first if it would dilute their case.
It would be like me saying “oh my god tris is scum because blah blah blah”
Then someone saying “But you didn’t mention anything about (player tris is pushing)”
So? That’s cart before the horse.

Kinda thinking chaos + Alchemist here.

I'm not going to quote all of Math's posts for context, but his catchup was done seemingly by reading through the game, stopping at a post, quoting and responding with thoughts. He thinks I'm scum here, but at this point in the game where he quoted, I hadn't posted. This style of posting seems like it's trying to convey genuine town thought process, showing your reactions and read evolutions throughout the read, but this POV is fake if I'm a scumread here, unless he thinks I'm scum for not posting before page 2, which is silly.

508 by Meg feels weird, mainly just the Ari read: "Aristeia: posts little content, but still shows they are following the game closely in 184, strong townread". I don't get strong townread from the little lead-in there, this feels like a consensus take since Ari was vocally townread by multiple people prior. Could also be trying to defuse Math attacking her right before that, but don't really feel that because if Meg's her partner, she had enough support from others, so probably not this.

And 601 makes me feel better about Meg. The expounding on the Ari read (and the rest of it, but that was my biggest pain point) makes sense, and it feels genuine.

I skipped over them as it came up, and I said I was going to go through Gamma's ISO before, but I still don't feel great there. Datisi summed it up well, it doesn't seem like he's trying to figure out who is scum. There's a lot of focus on the setup spec, he has a lot of posts focusing on Ari that don't seem helpful. There's not nothing there, the push on Mathblade is maybe ok in 828, but it's grounded in a lot of meh in 626/785/787/798/804.

Prism replaces Flubber, and then immediately pushes Lukewarm, who pops up in thread right after. It could be scum distancing, but it doesn't feel like it, so I guess at least one of my top scumreads is town. Prism looks better from the interaction here, Lukewarm's response has a panicky vibe. I also don't like some of the read progressions he makes here. 658 reads like trying to get someone who scumreads you to go away by calling them town, especially given 668 where as soon as there is an attack on Prism for the push on you, you jump on and agree. I was going to make a big post attacking 670 here, but it does jive with your ISO reading through it. It feels weird to have you want to move away from me when I've posted nothing in the past couple days at this point and it looked like a lazy pivot onto the Meg wagon, but this could be legit thought process given your posts prior.

And skipping ahead a bit, I don't know what to make of 784. It seems like you're trying to kill wagon momentum on me, which doesn't really make sense at all for scum you to do. There is a bit of a weird defensive vibe like you need to justify moving from me to Meg, but I don't see why scum you just doesn't stay on me here. UNVOTE:

Just finished page 32, taking a break for a bit, but I feel a bit lost at this point.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Umlaut

[ChaosOmega]

Umlaut, I was town reading you all D1 and then naked voted you to start D2, do you find that suspicious at all? Also, who are you currently scumreading? I know you had the initial push on Flubber, but you felt better about Prism, not sure where you stand right now.

And I'm back to not liking Lukewarm. I need to go back through and see the momentum of my and Meg's wagons when he switched, I gave him townpoints because I thought mine had more momentum, but if Meg's had more, the switch doesn't do as much for me.

[ChaosOmega]

1224 reads to me like someone entirely uninterested in the game not scummy. Many many times I have seen completely disinterested town and scum make similar posts. Ari also did the same sort of uninterested hop in but yet you pick on Umlaut why? I have as scum taken advantage of disinterested town to get a quick elim. We just had wagonpalooza D1 and now 4 people are confident sans case?

That reads one of two things neither of which are protown to share yet. Regardless I think a scum in Chaos, Datisi, Gamma, and Titus is quite high regardless of which explanation I go down.

Premise A: (Secret premise)
If Premise A is true then scum likely think Premise A is true and therefore would vote Umlaut.
If Premise A is not true then scum likely think they may get a free elim by hopping on without discussion like everyone else.

It’s rather telling that 1224 is the first attempt to explain Umlaut scum rather than using D1 and that’s after unexplained votes appeared.

To those of you who are that sure Umlaut is scum, why not go look back and see what was scummy D1?

Make a case of it.

Math says he's not defending me and wants me limmed but this definitely reads like defending to me...

What is the point you're making here? Is Math scummy for doing this? If so, why?

-----

Lukewarm, what are your thoughts on Umlaut? Is he scummy but less so than me, neutral, town?

[ChaosOmega]

Gamma, that quote is not his position regarding Umlaut, it is regarding me. You could also let him answer.

[ChaosOmega]

It feels like Gamma and Luke are both trying to pull momentum away from Umlaut here.

[ChaosOmega]

My stance for like 75% of the day was Chaos>Meg.

Yes I thought that meg was scummy too, but I compromised away from my top preference Day 1.

I have a strong preference to a Chaos > Meg elim day 1.

I think that they are both about equally scummy, but Meg having actually no opinions in thread means that we don't get any associatives from a Meg flip.

I still think that both Meg and Chaos are scummy, but I my preference for chaos is falling away.

Meg has gained some associatives recently, more in how other people (and not just prism) have interacted with the slot then just their recent read list, and the lack of meg associaives was the main thing pushing me towards flipping chaos first.

My top scum reads are chaos and meg, and I want to elim in those 2 personally.

I had a preference for chaos, but thought meg was also a good choice. that preference has gone away due to other slots interaction with the meg wagon

Your preference seemed to be for Meg most of D1, but favoring me due to lack of associatives. Describing it as a compromise feels wrong, she got more associatives and became a better lim candidate from your progression here it looks like.

[ChaosOmega]

It feels like Gamma and Luke are both trying to pull momentum away from Umlaut here.

Explain why this has to be an either or situation.

Far as I am concerned my vote would be about game health and you’re both scummy AF to me.

I don't know what the either or here is referring to.

[ChaosOmega]

It feels like Gamma and Luke are both trying to pull momentum away from Umlaut here.

Explain why this has to be an either or situation.

Far as I am concerned my vote would be about game health and you’re both scummy AF to me.

I don't know what the either or here is referring to.

Why should I town read you?

Why does it have to be a pull away momentum from Umlaut?

Why does Umlaut have to be scum and you town? Don’t get me wrong I scumread Umlaut but I do this dishonest framing as scum all the time. I hate black and white fallacies.

Because I'm town? If you think I'm pushing an angle here and I'm not being genuine then vote me, but I don't know what you want in terms of why you should town read me.

Umlaut seems to be settled as the top lim choice today. Gamma and Luke (other than Umlaut I guess, but honestly not really) are the main people fighting that, either by pushing for my lim or trying to towncase Umlaut. Now for some speculation. With the info that only 3 people have access to a PT, I think there is a higher than normal chance of a traitor being in the game. If so, there is only 2 group-scum, and I think there is going to be more of a defense put up to save a partner in that scenario. I might have tunnel vision here a bit at this point, my solve right now is Umlaut/Lukewarm with Gamma as a traitor.

And again, not sure what you're looking for with this question. My point is something I'm seeing in the game, I'm coming into it with a bias that I think Umlaut is scum and therefore this action being done is suspicious, but I'm not trying to imply a dichotomy here. From your perspective if you're town, me/Umlaut interaction could be T-T, T-S, S-T, or S-S. So uh, you figure it out I guess?

[ChaosOmega]

Now for some speculation. With the info that only 3 people have access to a PT, I think there is a higher than normal chance of a traitor being in the game.

actually no, the odds of a traitor, who doesn't have access to a pt, drop to zero. if there are three scum, two with a pt, where's the third player with it? can't be a townie, since they would immediately know what their partner is scum.

i think it would use you to rethink a little bit, i get you think umlaut is scum, but both his partners being that obvious in trying to save him would be a bit... unlikely, at least?

@math, i'll get to your q later, about to leave the house right now.

Town neighborizer could be 1 of the 3. I just feel like since it was mentioned, it's trying to troll us in some way.

And agreed, it's unlikely it is that obvious. Still want to flip Umlaut first before really digging into that, but if Umlaut does flip scum, I think there is definitely one scum in Lukewarm/Gamma at least.

[ChaosOmega]

I asked the mod hypothetically, if a Town Neighborizer with no neighbors was in this game, would they count as 1 of the 3 people with access to a PT, and was told they would.

[ChaosOmega]

It feels like Gamma and Luke are both trying to pull momentum away from Umlaut here.

VOTE: Lukewarm

-----

Also, I'd rather not claim, but there is a reason I had an about-face on Umlaut after N1 and had my vote locked on him all D2.

[ChaosOmega]

I thought it was obvious enough, but I guess not.

[ChaosOmega]

Current read list:
{Datisi}
{Koba, Ari, Titus, N_M}
{Alch, Math}
{Gamma, Luke}

[ChaosOmega]

Math, I don't give a fuck what you think of my slot. There's a decent chance you're scum with Umlaut from his lazy weird distancing with you and you trying to derail his wagon early into D2 with 1283/1294/1296.

[ChaosOmega]

Actions speak louder than words.

[ChaosOmega]

I voted scum all day D2, you tried to derail their lim. Your posts seem to suck worse than mine on a surface level glance.

What are your thoughts on Alch and Luke?

[ChaosOmega]

It feels like Gamma and Luke are both trying to pull momentum away from Umlaut here.

VOTE: Lukewarm

-----

Also, I'd rather not claim, but there is a reason I had an about-face on Umlaut after N1 and had my vote locked on him all D2.

Guessing it has to do with what Umlaut flipped?

And here is fishing trying to out my role. Let me switch, since I don't think there's enough support for Luke.

VOTE: Gamma

I think Gamma is more likely to flip traitor which is why I'm more interested in Luke, but scum is scum.

[ChaosOmega]

I'm not right on one of you obviously, I'm not sure which one. I don't think there's 3 scum + traitor. And your quoting of 1370 is disingenuous, your derailing was early in the day, you pivoted once the wagon was inevitable to look better.

[ChaosOmega]

Oh look I'm getting wagoned. I could jump on Chaos if it's him or me but I haven't seen any good reason to suspect him aside from "read this other game to see his meta" which I'm just not going to do.

I really don’t like the fact me and a top scumread are both thinking it’s a weird kill so maybe it’s just not?

This is a very weird line of thought. Why on earth would someone else thinking it's a weird kill mean it isn't one, scumread or not? What exactly is the connection here?

Chaos (2): Alchemist21 1176, Lukewarm 1177
Umlaut (2): ChaosOmega 1179, Datisi 1182, Gamma, Titus

not voting: Vulture, Umlaut, MathBlade, Aristeia, Not_Mafia

Now assume me and Ari are town like you’re implying.

Premise 1: Me + Ari are town.
Premise 2: There are likely 3 scum.
Premise 3: Excluding me and Ari the only non voters are Vulture, Umlaut, and Not Mafia.

Conclusion: Either the team is exactly Vulture Umlaut Not Mafia
Or
There is a scum in the naked voters
Or
A prior assumption Ari is town is wrong (technically the assumption I am town falls here but I know I am town so I am hand waving that away).

I am pretty sure in my Prism townread so I think there’s scum in the naked voters.

If there’s scum in the naked voters it becomes a matter of which wagon and why.

So I have a lot of premises built up and I am looking to figure out which premises are true.

Trying to play interpret the gif sucks.

Pedit: If this wagon situation wasn’t here you.
I may not understand what is going on but I don’t want to derail it until I find if there’s scum on it.

VC 2.2

Umlaut (4):

ChaosOmega 1179, Datisi 1182, Gamma Emerald 1202, Titus 1203

Chaos (2):

Alchemist21 1176, Lukewarm 1177

not voting:

Vulture, Umlaut, MathBlade, Aristeia, Not_Mafia

with 11 alive it takes 6 to destroy.

not voting:

(expired on 2021-08-19 15:22:00)

note:

Like more than just a vote on a wagon.

How so?

VOTE: Vulture

I reject binaries and substitute my own.

This over apologetic ness is a super old scum tell. I wanna see how Vulture is sorry.

umlaut is scum, and the fact that there hasn't been an intent on him yet is very sad

anyway. i don't think i've ever seen titus use gifs before, so page 49 is weird to me. not scummy, just weird. lol.

1224 is bad. you'd think townlaut would, after a 4 day night, knowing he's done jack shit and will be suspected, at least have something to enter the game with? instead he's nitpicking something math said? nah

Mostly cried and had paranoid thoughts about Datisi being a scumbag who's playing with my heart.

why? i hate being the one to say "why me", but you've given no indication that you thought i was scummy, other than "i'm throwing out all my reads" i guess, and even then that doesn't explain why you jump directly onto the possibility of me being scum, as opposed to. anyone else.

i'm getting townie pings on mathblade from the was he entered this dayphase and is trying to brute force sort out what is happening. anyone with more experience with him wanna tell me if this is likely to come from scum!him?

umlaut is scum, and the fact that there hasn't been an intent on him yet is very sad

anyway. i don't think i've ever seen titus use gifs before, so page 49 is weird to me. not scummy, just weird. lol.

1224 is bad. you'd think townlaut would, after a 4 day night, knowing he's done jack shit and will be suspected, at least have something to enter the game with? instead he's nitpicking something math said? nah

Mostly cried and had paranoid thoughts about Datisi being a scumbag who's playing with my heart.

why? i hate being the one to say "why me", but you've given no indication that you thought i was scummy, other than "i'm throwing out all my reads" i guess, and even then that doesn't explain why you jump directly onto the possibility of me being scum, as opposed to. anyone else.

i'm getting townie pings on mathblade from the was he entered this dayphase and is trying to brute force sort out what is happening. anyone with more experience with him wanna tell me if this is likely to come from scum!him?

Umlaut is a lurker. Why would he already be at intent? At the end of D1, a lot of people were spamming conditional reads on Umlaut assuming the alignment of others. How do you get from there to “Umlaut is scum zero discussion let’s gooooooo” and not only that a lot of people joined so far. Don’t get me wrong and this is no defense and I don’t mind moving on but if Umlaut is scum I would rather force him to give content here. The more you force a scum to talk the more content you get.

Datisi let me save you the trouble on the scum me question. Scum me and town me have similar metas I strive for it. I am good scum and can be the top town read in a 40p game. I am working on making my town game good. I brute sort as scum and town. I have enough scum games on here the answer to “have I done X as scum” the answer is probably yes. I use my prior scum games to explain pitfalls to avoid. But I think asking a really good scum player such as myself what is more likely means you’re probably getting bitten in the butt with assumptions as probably almost every player here has seen different sides of my scum game and only a few have seen me decent town.

1224 reads to me like someone entirely uninterested in the game not scummy. Many many times I have seen completely disinterested town and scum make similar posts. Ari also did the same sort of uninterested hop in but yet you pick on Umlaut why? I have as scum taken advantage of disinterested town to get a quick elim. We just had wagonpalooza D1 and now 4 people are confident sans case?

That reads one of two things neither of which are protown to share yet. Regardless I think a scum in Chaos, Datisi, Gamma, and Titus is quite high regardless of which explanation I go down.

Premise A: (Secret premise)
If Premise A is true then scum likely think Premise A is true and therefore would vote Umlaut.
If Premise A is not true then scum likely think they may get a free elim by hopping on without discussion like everyone else.

It’s rather telling that 1224 is the first attempt to explain Umlaut scum rather than using D1 and that’s after unexplained votes appeared.

To those of you who are that sure Umlaut is scum, why not go look back and see what was scummy D1?

Make a case of it.

Just skimmed Ari’s meta on the normal game first. (Yeah it looked simpler sue me)

VOTE: Chaos

Based on what I see there I am okay sheeping Ari while reading up Luke’s case

fine VOTE: umlaut

e-1

VOTE: Unvote

I think everyone posting by tone here is town which makes me back to my absurd theory Chaos and Umlaut are both scum but I am not sure that’s supported by the thread movement.

Game night is tonight but I will re-read what you’ve asked Datisi.

I am still just wondering why Umlaut has so many voters when the case on Chaos has much more evidence.

Makes me think scum are manufacturing resistance somewhere. I just can’t see the strings.

[ChaosOmega]

I voted scum all day D2, you tried to derail their lim. Your posts seem to suck worse than mine on a surface level glance.

What are your thoughts on Alch and Luke?

I did no such thing.

You’re more than welcome to try to argue that incorrectly.

My thoughts are dependent on your alignment.

Also, you have no thoughts on them with a flipped scum that aren't dependent on my alignment? If you're town, you're pretty bad at mafia then.

[ChaosOmega]

I voted scum all day D2, you tried to derail their lim. Your posts seem to suck worse than mine on a surface level glance.

What are your thoughts on Alch and Luke?

I did no such thing.

You’re more than welcome to try to argue that incorrectly.

My thoughts are dependent on your alignment.

Also, you have no thoughts on them with a flipped scum that aren't dependent on my alignment? If you're town, you're pretty bad at mafia then.

Then I am pretty bad at mafia because I hunt via associatives.

And you're saying Luke and Alch have no associatives other than with me?

[ChaosOmega]

I voted scum all day D2, you tried to derail their lim. Your posts seem to suck worse than mine on a surface level glance.

What are your thoughts on Alch and Luke?

I did no such thing.

You’re more than welcome to try to argue that incorrectly.

My thoughts are dependent on your alignment.

Also, you have no thoughts on them with a flipped scum that aren't dependent on my alignment? If you're town, you're pretty bad at mafia then.

Then I am pretty bad at mafia because I hunt via associatives.

And you're saying Luke and Alch have no associatives other than with me?

No I am saying that those associatives are dependent upon your flip.

There’s a lot of people who play and pull at strings.

How the prior day played out changed significantly based on your alignment.

If it’s SvS then you’re a scum PR so scum sacrificed Umlaut.
If it’s SvT then for some reason your wagon wasn’t pushed more.

What pushes are towny/scummy are literally dependent on your alignment

VOTE: Chaos

Since it’s not hammer anymore

So if my wagon wasn't pushed more even though I'm town, what does that tell you? You said if I flip scum Gamma and Luke are town, what reads of yours change if I flip town?

[ChaosOmega]

i thought the "umlaut, i was townreading you all of d1, now i'm voting you on d2" was very clear. which is also why i had a slight panic reaction this morning when i saw you were at an unannounced y-2.

I uh missed this.

@chaos, anyone with changed or maybe more confident read on today versus yesterday?

If I had more results that I thought were relevant to claim, I would have.

[ChaosOmega]

I voted scum all day D2, you tried to derail their lim. Your posts seem to suck worse than mine on a surface level glance.

What are your thoughts on Alch and Luke?

This post only makes me even more sure that you’re scum.

You've been wrong this whole game, why stop now?

[ChaosOmega]

Umlaut, I was town reading you all D1 and then naked voted you to start D2, do you find that suspicious at all?

this, coupled with the naked lolvote at the start, looked like a pr soft to me

There were six naked votes.

Are you suggesting two people got guilties on Chaos and four on Umlaut?

And invest PRs don’t check townreads either. They check null or scumreads.

Math, don't be dense.

And maybe I didn't actually tell him the truth when I said I was townreading him all D1, and he was more null to me.

[ChaosOmega]

Your theory is scum have to shoot Chaos.

If your theory is right they have to shoot Chaos regardless of what Chaos claims right?

no. my theory is chaos is a town power role. if he's something like a town cop, then they have to shoot him. if he's something like a 1-shot tracker, then they most likely don't have to shoot him because the town will do the job for them, or at least keep being distracted by him. by keeping scum ~in the dark~, they have to gamble.

he said his results aren't useful. which means we don't actually get anything extra to act upon, we just let scum know where they have to fire tonight.

Imho incorrect. Scum still have to shoot there if Chaos is town.

Assume Chaos is town, then he de facto becomes innocent child depending upon what he claims. It’s not so much the future results it’s past precedent. At this point it’s not about results it’s about giving scum no place to hide.

Said Mathblade incorrectly.

[ChaosOmega]

If I fullclaim, what are scum adjusting to during the day Math? Me not fullclaiming is allowing scum to make a mistake by not having complete information.

[ChaosOmega]

Who do you think my partner is then Math? I'll talk to you about any player you want, give you some more associatives you love.

[ChaosOmega]

I also think it's unlikely Luke and Alch are scum together from how they've interacted. I do think it's likely one of them is scum and is trying to pocket the other.

[ChaosOmega]

VC 1.09

MegAzumarill (6):

Datisi 286, Aristeia 327, Gamma Emerald 364, Titus 390, Vulture 456, Flubbernugget 537

D-1

Flubbernugget (3):

Umlaut 29, T3 113, Alchemist21 371

ChaosOmega (2):

Lukewarm 259, MathBlade 558

Lukewarm (1):

ChaosOmega 261

Vulture (1):

MegAzumarill 579

not voting:

with 13 alive it takes 7 to destroy.

deadline:

(expired on 2021-08-08 18:55:00)

We know Meg is town here at this point.

Want to assume I am scum incorrectly here? Why don’t I hammer?

Same with Alch and Luke.

These are the questions that have to be answered with narrative.

Why didn't Umlaut hammer here? Must be town oh wait.

Also, you, Alch, and Luke were all on the wagon when it went through, so I don't fully get your point here?

[ChaosOmega]

You seem to be coming from a premise that scum here would almost always hammer in this situation, I don't know why.

That VC was in a gap of his posting, his last post before is throwing mild shade on the wagon, when he posts again the wagon isn't at E-1.

[ChaosOmega]

If you're saying that town or scum would hammer there, it sounds like the premises you're coming in with are wrong, because nobody hammered. QED

Unless you're saying we're all SK's, which sounds awesome.

[ChaosOmega]

I feel not great about him, it feels like his read progressions just sort of stopped and he's locked on me, and his defense using his interaction with Umlaut early early D1 reads weird. Let me go back through his ISO.

[ChaosOmega]

And how do you know that I didn't investigate you N2?

VOTE: Lukewarm

[ChaosOmega]

As for the Alch ISO read:

117 is interesting now that we have a mafia neighbor flip. Alch is the first person to bring up neighborhoods. I am still working on the assumption that this setup is trolly in some way, so maybe both neighbors are scum? Neighbors just seem like a weird thing to bring up, but this could be nothing.

Umlaut-Alch back and forth from 225 to 242. Umlaut doesn't mention Alch in either of his mini read posts (199/330) even after the interaction with him.

Luke-Alch interaction 1111-1114/1146 (more a note for myself)

Alch kept saying Umlaut is scum but I'm scummier and trying to push people to my wagon (1324/1327/1453/1478/1481)

I mentioned it previously, but his defense in 1931 by quoting his interactions with Umlaut on page 2 is silly. It's a low risk time to try to distance, and also literally nothing came of it, I don't understand trying to get towncred from interacting with scum page 2 and then not mentioning them until D2, saying they're scum, but never voting them and trying to make a different wagon happen.

[ChaosOmega]

When Luke moved from me to Meg, I was at E-4 (including Luke's vote) and he moved Meg to E-3 (it would have been E-2, but Gamma moved to Vulture right before).

[ChaosOmega]

Neither. I would not say that I town read him but I am also hesitant on killing him. it all boils down to "do I believe the pr claim" which I was trying to get to the bottom of by asking him a question earlier, but instead of talking to me he just voted me again, so .... Yeah

I ignored that question because it just seemed like you were trying to figure out if you should NK me or not by trying to narrow down what I am.

-----

Alch isn't my top choice, but I'm fine with this lim. You're at NM-1, I would claim.

[ChaosOmega]

I'm holding off voting for right now, waiting for Lukewarm's catchup. Alch not giving any reads and just going "maybe this person's theory is right, idk" feels not great. He also hasn't really mentioned Gamma at all and now he's in his solve, is this just a sheep of Koba's thoughts or do you see something there you don't like?

[ChaosOmega]

I'm not really feeling Koba as scum here. They had opportunity to mislim me D2 and D3 and didn't, and also probably would not have gotten a lot of heat for it.

Need to read back through some of the posts here, but I'm busy at work today, so this might have to wait until tomorrow.

[ChaosOmega]

I can confirm Gamma as town, I'll claim more details if Titus/Datisi/Gamma want me to.

[ChaosOmega]

I'm an informed gunsmith. N1 Umlaut has a gun, N2 Koba no gun, N3 Gamma has a gun.

I am informed that only one mafia has a gun, which is why I've been bringing up traitors throughout the game.

[ChaosOmega]

This is also why my soft was engaging Umlaut, I didn't have a hard guilty on him until he claimed VT.

[ChaosOmega]

I didn't, but traitors don't have a gun, so it doesn't matter regardless.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Lukewarm

If you think I'm scum, that means town's only power is a loyal jailkeeper and a shot-limited in some way rolecop. Some of the newbie setups have more power than that. I know with an extremely likely at this point traitor that town will not be as strong (and I'm biased obviously because I know I'm town), but there's no way we just have 2 PRs, especially of the ones that were claimed.

My PoE is Luke > Math > Ari > N_M.

[ChaosOmega]

And I think you don't know what you're talking about a lot, so *shrug*

[ChaosOmega]

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80157

Just throwing it out there that the person who is running this game ran a game previously with a town doctor and town jailkeeper. This is to say, I don't understand the points Math is making.

[ChaosOmega]

Agreed Datisi, this is more arguing the point by Math that there's no way a town doc and JK can be in a mini normal, his setup spec and odds calculations are biased around what he thinks is balanced, and I don't think he has a good handle on it.

[ChaosOmega]

Cool, then keep talking about setup spec and why this isn't balanced for the next 10 pages, should be super productive.

I'll be over here voting Luke trying to actually win the game, and then you can bitch to mastina post-game.

[ChaosOmega]

Cool, then keep talking about setup spec and why this isn't balanced for the next 10 pages, should be super productive.

I'll be over here voting Luke trying to actually win the game, and then you can bitch to mastina post-game.

Sounds like someone wants us to avoid questioning the set-up

Yep, you caught me, shaking in my boots over here.

You can all do whatever you like, I just have opinions on how useful it is/reading it makes me want to stop reading it and do something more fun like my taxes. To be clear, I'm not talking about setup spec in general, I am specifically referring to all the shit Math is posting.

[ChaosOmega]

I said Gamma has a gun and because of my informed knowledge, he's confirmed town. If he flips scum, I'm lying and therefore scum.

[ChaosOmega]

Ah fair enough.

So chaos has to be scum or Titus is.
I don’t think Titus is so Chaos by PoE.

Said Mathblade incorrectly.

[ChaosOmega]

So assuming the setup is Mafia Doc + Mafia Neighbor + Mafia Traitor Neighbor, Datisi gets no useful results after Umlaut dies because they're both in a PT by themselves.

[ChaosOmega]

Turns out both our naked votes were softing guilties, lol.

[ChaosOmega]

if next scum flip is a mafia neighbour = scum was most likely all in a hood together, math is cleared (if game not over)

i *think* the only way this is not true is if math is a mafia traitor neighbourizer who decided to holster for the whole game, but i kinda don't buy it?

and yes, i'm not gambiting for shits. ask koba what happened last time i did that.

And there would need to be 3 people in a PT at the start of the game, so it would have to be a mafia neighbor traitor neighborizer? Just gonna pretend this isn't possible and move on.

[ChaosOmega]

what's the difference

Chaos said 3 people in A PT.

Assuming the setup is as suggested
Could have started mafia doctor + Umlaut in first PT
Umlaut + traitor in second

3 people in a PT does not mean the same one necessarily.

[ChaosOmega]

How is voting me autowin again?

[ChaosOmega]

How is voting me autowin again?

Because assuming you’re town flipping you gives more confirmed town than anything.

Gamma and Koba become lock.
Datisi is lock because Datisi +Titus can’t exist

Gamma + Koba + Datisi + Titus = 4 conf town

PoE is too small.

Then why not lim twice in the PoE assuming all those are conftown, if neither of the lims are on scum, then lim me?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: chaos

Traffic analysts make more sense to me then a gunsmith, given then set up info.

And, I have been scum reading chaos all game, and only tabled it because of the claim, and now there are too many claims.

And, like math said, even a town flip would confirm a lot of people

Plus his ability is functionally useless, so we are not actually losing a functioning pr this way.

Said Lukewarm scummily.

[ChaosOmega]

so first of all, math spent how many pages trying to convince us that titus + gamma + omega cannot in any universe all be town because that setup is broken, but now that both me and n_m have claimed, suddenly all of titus + gamma + omega + datisi + not_mafia are town if omega is town?? and the justification for that was given because n_m claimed with a rolecop and was risked getting checked, despite him claiming that after the rolecop revealed he was two-shot?

Well, he said that all of the PR claims are town if I'm scum. I was going to bring up a similar point that it's weird he thinks there is likely scum in the 3 original PR claims, but suddenly you add 2 more PR claims and then they're all town if I flip scum. It makes sense if the team is Math/N_M, but I feel kinda weird saying this, I think all the claims are legit. I know Gamma is town, Titus being town is the obvious explanation why there wasn't a kill N2, if that's true, then Datisi is town, and I don't understand N_M's gameplan here if he's scum with the claim. He was in the PoE but decently townread, he didn't need to make a weird fakeclaim like that.

[ChaosOmega]

Then Datisi can’t have an N3 check if loyal if Titus blocks her so he can’t kill again!

Huh? I blocked no one n3.

You didn’t get a chance to crumb it though.

If Datisi kills and you block him thems the ball game. He can’t claim a result on N3 anymore

Then when asked and he says a result conf scum

The only safe move is no kill

This argument can apply to Chaos since that was my last crumb but applying it to Datisi is such a strech

You asked me for moonlogic

This is where I am at.

If Chaos is scum it’s probably with Datisi.

If Chaos is town then yay two conf town and mod broken setup all PR claims are probably true elim in the PoE and call it a game

Sorry, you're right, he does say that all PR's are town if I flip town, what the hell? Math, your progression here makes 0 sense unless you're protecting your partner N_M knowing that I'll flip town.

[ChaosOmega]

Math, do you think Datisi is scum?

[ChaosOmega]

Math, do you think Datisi is scum?

Only if you are.

If you’re town then *shrug* we win and whatever.

So when I flip town, what are your thoughts on:

loyal jailkeeper + informed gunsmith + 2-shot rolecop + n1 firing traffic analyst + even-night traffic analyst?

[ChaosOmega]

Math, does town still "autowin" if we lim someone in the PoE pool today and lim me tomorrow if they flip town? If so, flip Luke today, if he flips town I'll self-vote tomorrow.

[ChaosOmega]

Unless there's 3 scum left (which would be absurd), we wouldn't be in danger of losing with 2 mislims, so you'd get the conf towns from me dying still. And if I'm limmed first, you're still limming in the PoE next, this is just flipping the order. But I've thought Luke is scum since day 1, I'd like to at least have a chance to lim another scum before I'm limmed for your not actually auto autowin.

[ChaosOmega]

Unless there's 3 scum left (which would be absurd), we wouldn't be in danger of losing with 2 mislims, so you'd get the conf towns from me dying still. And if I'm limmed first, you're still limming in the PoE next, this is just flipping the order. But I've thought Luke is scum since day 1, I'd like to at least have a chance to lim another scum before I'm limmed for your not actually auto autowin.

I am pretty sure that the proposed plan was "kill you, if you are town kill the poe (which includes me)"

So, I actually think on a town you flip, I die immediately after anyways?

So, from my pov, this just looks like trying to sneak in an extra miselim before you die, and we change our thinking on the whole situation

I'm settled as the lim for today it looks like. If you flip scum, that means that if you think I'm scum, I tunneled one of my partners D1 and softed a guilty on the other D2. It's just not something I'd do, I'm too lazy to do all that and try to win after. Math is a blockhead, so you're probably fine for today though.

[ChaosOmega]

He's obviously saying zero faith that I flip red.

[ChaosOmega]

Math/N_M team here makes a lot of sense. Refusal to put N_M in the pool, his mislims are already set up, me > Luke > Ari, scum win.

[ChaosOmega]

Yes and I go after you because I want to lose because I don’t win in that world as previously explained. /s obviously

How don't you win? If you and N_M are the last two, why wouldn't you be able to push mislims on Luke and Ari after I flip town? They're both in the PoE pool. I've heard someone in this game state that as scum, you have full control of everything or some sort of nonsense.

[ChaosOmega]

You could probably pull off just looking super misguided, you're doing a good job so far.

[ChaosOmega]

If you flip scum, that means that if you think I'm scum

wut?
luke probably shouldn't be "thinking" you're either alignment if he's scum

The first you is Luke, the second you is people who scumread me who aren't Luke, I could have worded that clearer.

[ChaosOmega]

If it's me/Gamma, that means town's only power is 2 traffic analysts and a loyal JK. I know that's wrong, but even without my knowledge, that seems like not enough power (along with the chance for the TA's to counter each other and get limmed/killed), even if it's 2 groupscum + traitor.

[ChaosOmega]

For our theory, our power should be low.

The problem is that I think scum shooting a traitor is far more likely than a no kill. Maybe scum doctor, scum neighbor, traitor neighbor, traitor bp.

You think 4 scum is possible? Even with 2 traitors, I don't really think it is.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I believe this is E-1 (Titus, Ari, Gamma, me).

[ChaosOmega]

It feels like the only reason to kill not mafia is the fact that his claim contradicts datisi's.

Everything else makes me think he is town. The early day 1 umlaut v flubber. Basically everything Prism posted. Not_Mafia's own posts, like the way he built up to counter claiming Datisi

But he's in one of your top two solves?

Math these last few pages feels like scum who is mad at a townsided set up, and then felt like he was in auto lose and is madly trying to widen the elim pool - see his interactions with Dats.

So I think that the team is either Math-Not_Mafia Or Chaos-Koba

Koba is never shot before chaos, so I am down for any of [math, Not_Mafia, chaos]

These 2 posts don't jive to me.

[ChaosOmega]

Also if there is a neighborizer traitor, both groupscum would need to be neighbors, which makes the role cop pretty much a cop at that point.

[ChaosOmega]

It feels like the only reason to kill not mafia is the fact that his claim contradicts datisi's.

Everything else makes me think he is town. The early day 1 umlaut v flubber. Basically everything Prism posted. Not_Mafia's own posts, like the way he built up to counter claiming Datisi

But he's in one of your top two solves?

Math these last few pages feels like scum who is mad at a townsided set up, and then felt like he was in auto lose and is madly trying to widen the elim pool - see his interactions with Dats.

So I think that the team is either Math-Not_Mafia Or Chaos-Koba

Koba is never shot before chaos, so I am down for any of [math, Not_Mafia, chaos]

These 2 posts don't jive to me.

I think that a scum math flip would give more weight to the not_mafia scum. But that feels like it means that math goes first.

Is the reverse true? If so, why not lim N_M first? If not, why?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Will wait for his result before I claim mine.

[ChaosOmega]

I checked Ari last night and got no result, I'm assuming Titus targeted me. Not like my results mean anything at this point anyway.

[ChaosOmega]

right, so n_m either guessed correctly what to claim, or there's something fucky happening. am i right to be getting worried that something fucky is happening?

for the record, i also got a chaos cannot communicate.

Info at the start said only 3 people have access to a PT, and no one claimed being neighborized, so that was the only thing he could claim.