Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Grib]

I'm not opposed to being shot at so Frog can go bother someone else.

[Grib]

I live to suffer another day.

[Grib]

VOTE: Grib

This ISO is still sus and being this slot can't be killed by any means makes it worse. I think Rolestopper + Roleblocker + Goon vs 5 TPR fits. We were screwed by the massclaim more than the mason sacrifices.

You’re saying you were blocked?

[Grib]

I reread the first 25-ish pages of the game and have some worlds to discuss. Would like to see where Titus is at.

I ~think I’ve actually settled onto the slot being town, which I’ll talk about once Titus posts.

[Grib]

I have literally never used the draft feature before, but today's the day.

Mostly so I don't have to drop like seven posts in a row. :V

[Grib]

Also, I think we should be solving for teams this phase. Scum only need one more mislim to win, so we should be hunting for and proposing teams to make the mafia put in that extra work.

I have a solve. I'll put it out there when Titus joins us.

[Grib]

Eiralox really put up that much of a fight to hide a Mailman ability? Seriously?

[Grib]

3 Masons
1 Vig
1 Doc
1 Mailman
4 VT

vs

1 Goon
???
???

I skimmed past mini normals to see if six TPRs was possible, and it was. With each of the roles being weakened (I assume the Doc has some sort of modifier as well), I think it still fits?

[Grib]

Ok well since Elements is hella shading Aisa.

I think Aisa and Enchant are the last two mafia.

[Grib]

I don't see why it matters, the slot basically has to claim today.

[Grib]

Uhhh I was gonna share my Eira read so we could talk about it. You good with clearing the slot?

[Grib]

I'm pretty much at the exact same world, with your name swapped in for mine, and with me pretty much trusting that you're a villager here.

[Grib]

What do the x2 and x3 signify?

[Grib]

Ok cool. I typed this up this morning after rereading the first ~25 pages of the game last night.

Spoiler: Eira read

1. I think Eira had some pretty good responses to BBT's push on him. Not in the sense that they couldn't be faked, but they come off too naturally to be theater imo.
2. If Eira is scum, I think BBT bussing him was pretty unnecessary, and probably contributed to his demise because of how townread Eira was. Plus, whatever Eira's power is, it at the very least isn't a scummy power, so the bus here doesn't really make sense since neither BBT nor Eira really benefit. [I had this post typed up before the Mailman claim. I'm going to add another reason here: Eira never really "did" anything with the cred from the BBT flip.]
3. The biggest and most convincing reason is that basically 99% of BBT's scumread on Eira was his weird townread of Aisa. Eira kept saying he'd explain it but he never did for a looong time, and BBT kept pressing the issue over Days 1 and 2. I think it's way more likely BBT was pushing on a villager doing something scummy (not explaining a "strong" and early gut read) rather than this being theater.
4. Bonus reason, but Eira lashing out at me but also unvoting me before he left the thread, plus his refusal to vote NM, just. Flat out are not mafia actions imo. He rejected an easy lim and he rejected an easy vote on me.

Titus should claim what messages were sent to Bella and NM.

[Grib]

If there's anything that influences your Eira read that I didn't notice, throw that in for me.

[Grib]

I think BBT leaned into having an empty townread on one partner (Aisa) and not talking about his other partner (Enchant). It gave him a reason to townread Aisa without justifying it with her content.

[Grib]

I want to kill Aisa and Enchant. Part of me does want to No Lim to make sure Frog is real, but that's just me being a coward.

[Grib]

I like your reasoning

Do you have anything to add or contest?

[Grib]

I'm a joat, not a mailman. The only slot I feel rather comfortable with right now is Aisa. My scum of VCA says Elements Grib but Frog's doctor claim with a dead Bella is suspect. The masons were macho so why would scum have a roleblocker?

lol

Hi Titus, hope you've been well.

Aisa is scum, but maybe you'll be more open to that when you have a broad view of the whole game.

[Grib]

what are your other JOAT abilities?

Wouldn't you like to know? Aisa knows.

Titus, it's mylo. Please claim.

[Grib]

That's fine. I don't want to rush this phase.

[Grib]

He's Aisa's partner.

[Grib]

You really should just finish your reread imo.

Elements: scum!Titus does not claim JOAT in mylo, because it renews the possibility that she could be a scum PR and not a weak town one. Hence, the slot is town. Agree/disagree?

[Grib]

BBT has almost no interactions with Enchant aside from some throwaway questions, and this readshift.

[...]

Enchant isn't doing anything they're probably scum.

+1

Scum team is like grib enchant frogsterking or something.

I like 2 of these

[Frog and Enchant]

for scum.

I'm reasonably confident that scum are in Eira/Frog/Grib/Elements.

I can't say I am confident in Enchant being town but they feel town

and I don't have a clue how to read NM.

Fire, Aisa and Bella are reasonably strong town reads, in that order.

[Grib]

You mean Eira mailed her before, and then Titus mailed her again?

[Grib]

If there's no roleblocker, I am at least soft-confirmed vanilla.

[Grib]

Or stopper.

Five years of mafia and I've never seen a rolestopper.

[Grib]

Rip, seven years. I took a year off.

[Grib]

It's not impossible but I am skeptical.

I think all scum are goons but that doesn't mean a goon can't fake a PR.

If all the scum are goons, then that would mean the town vig would be blocked from shooting any mafia. No dice.

[Grib]

Ugh, I think I’m doing too much projecting of off-site mechanical meta to MS. I’m just gonna stop.

I do have some behavioral reasons to clear Frog, but I guess I don’t feel as strongly about it since apparently we can just have bogus roles that exist to be detrimental red herrings.

[Grib]

I guess in that case it makes the Doc claim more likely to be real? Town isn’t overloaded with a JOAT, three macho Masons, and a half-loyal Vig.

I imagine sooner or later you’ll have seen the context of Frog’s claim and early Day 1 crumbs, if those change your mind at all.

[Grib]

All of this took place after Bella expressed doubt of his alignment, so that can’t be the only reason.

[Grib]

Ask me again in six days, eight hours, and twenty minutes.

[Grib]

Suddenly? That was four days and a separate phase ago.

[Grib]

Aisa, do you have a team solve? If not, I'll wait while you do your research.

[Grib]

Or if you want to talk about slots that aren't you or me, we can do that too.

[Grib]

I'm not asking you to commit to voting anybody right now or anything. I'm asking you who you believe the last two mafia are, and why. What voting path leads to a town victory, in your opinion?

If you don't know, let's talk about why.

[Grib]

What are you talking about?

[Grib]

I wasn't talking about Titus at all. Why do you think it's me and Elements?

[Grib]

Actually, I take that back. Forget about me, tell me about Elements.

[Grib]

You should probably talk about Enchant too. I don't think you've actually justified a townread on him.

[Grib]

Sorry, just realised I still haven't explained that clearly. I was hoping Elements would be forced to explain why Titus was "the most confirmably town" before I said anything. From my perspective somebody had to blink first.

Fair.

[Grib]

VOTE: Enchant

[Grib]

Nah. He said so himself.

i mean i like enchant, from the little we've interacted so : P I want an answer for why Enchant is on Asia, but i'm ok if folk aren't as active day ones..... the one doesn't cancel the other, and me liking enchant doesn't mean i'm not holding open the possibility that they're scum.... they're pretty much null to me, but i want them to peek in and change my mind >.>

I ask simply because my understanding of enchant's meta is that when they're not doing anything they're way more likely to be scum.

I don't have meta

I am same idiot as both alignments, just more informed as maf

[...]

[Grib]

Where does he show he cares about achieving good mechanical outcomes? What's the significance of telling Bella to hammer that has to come from a villager?

If you reread the game from a Grib/Elements/BBT perspective, does the game flow naturally? Does the team fit? Have you even reread the game with that team in mind, or are you just like "welp here are the leftovers, die die die"

[Grib]

I really do want to know why Elements is scum beyond being a leftover name. Look at her play over the course of the game and tell me what she was thinking as BBT's buddy, and how she ended up doing the things she did.

[Grib]

And I'm not asking you to like, analyze every single word uttered by her. Just like, the big picture things. Key moments in the game, or posts of hers that jump out at you.

[Grib]

Did I stutter?

[Grib]

Also, I almost got voted out last phase, with Enchant happily encouraging people to vote me. And you think we're buddies?

[Grib]

Was that before or after you got stoned to help you think more clearly?

[Grib]

Eh, too easy to fake imo, but thanks.

[Grib]

To be fair, I haven't asked you to evaluate anything. I'm asking you to justify the reads you have, especially ones you've had for a while but have said little about.

[Grib]

Meh, should be RE-evaluate

[Grib]

Rereading is something everybody should be doing regardless and is pretty different from reevaluating a specific read.

imo.

[Grib]

Where does he show he cares about achieving good mechanical outcomes? What's the significance of telling Bella to hammer that has to come from a villager?

If you reread the game from a Grib/Elements/BBT perspective, does the game flow naturally? Does the team fit? Have you even reread the game with that team in mind, or are you just like "welp here are the leftovers, die die die"

I did a reread the game a bit over the Night phase and noted that you + Elements fit fairly well. Elements in particular seems more comfortable talking to you than to others. I think I'm due for a more serious reread though.

You think her goading you into voting me to E-1 last phase was a ploy?

You did end up voting me later. why didn't you do it when she asked?

[Grib]

@everyone

Can anyone disprove a Grib/BBT/Enchant team?

Can you disprove that you're a mafia doctor?

You've latched onto me being scum based on some experimental mindset analysis, from what I can tell. And it seems like you want me to be mafia to grant your analysis some sort of credence.

[Grib]

Screw you aimed AT EVERYONE (except Frog), what the fuck you even thinked.

Nah. Screw NM. It's unfortunate a town PR was wasted on him, and that both of his partners died Night 1.

The TSQ posts do exist and we all (including you) ignored them in favor of a "no there isn't a third Mason" slash "NM needs to die" world. And here we are.

[Grib]

I really want to vote Enchant

You might as well. Seems like the No Lim is inevitable regardless of what you choose to do.

If he's a villager, then mafia just dogpile him, we lose, and we can all go home. I don't think waiting an extra phase is going to make me want to vote him any less.

[Grib]

Think I'm just gonna chill and wait to read Titus' posts. I don't have much to say since we're kinda-sorta at an impasse.

[Grib]

Vig and three Masons for TPR? That’s really it?

[Grib]

Welp.

Terrible game, glad it’s over. Village played pretty badly, and I’m exiling myself from playing for another year or maybe forever. gg mafia.

I really need to know what hell setup we’re in that possessed Frog to soft Doc Day 1.

[Grib]

To be honest, we would’ve won if we’d eliminated based on behavior. Maybe. Frog coasted on his claim, nobody wanted to kill Eiralox despite the way he refused to claim his role, and we completely failed at setup gaming because the setup makes no sense. :V

[Grib]

I’m a survivor main exclusively, but I do hop on Ghostface once in a blue moon. I have only ~200 hours on survivor and maybe three on killer.

[Grib]

I'll write a wall too. Processing feelings is fun and healthy. :V :V :V

Whatever the setup is, I absolutely hate it. No offense to CSF or the scumteam, but I think the setup (or rather, our attempts to game it) carried the scumteam more than their actual play, which always leaves a sour taste in my mouth. BBT and Frog both got caught early, and Frog wiggled out of it with his claim. Eiralox played really well up til Day 3 imo, but his refusal to claim was SO bad and scummy, and it drove me crazy at how nobody was interested in at least forcing him to claim, or just outright killing him. And then his vote pattern at the end of Day 3 on top of that convinced me that I was wrong and he was town.

The only people who played well in terms of actually finding scum were TSQ and Fire. And I guess a lot of us scumread Frog, so half credit to us for that. It sucked so hard when I realized TSQ was a Mason, and doubly sucked when Bella shot HPE. I can't blame her at all for that shot with the amount of heat HPE got Day 1, but at that point I think village was pretty much fucked. That's not even getting into NM being a Mason, the chances of which were high enough that I honestly should've let myself die instead of him. I felt trapped between "throw the game and let myself be voted out" and "throw the game and vote a maybe Mason who isn't actually playing."

NM and Enchant made me really, really mad with their playstyles. I'll take terrible but engaged play over detached/trolling/lurking play any day of the week. Enchant is completely forgiven. NM is not.

Firebringer had the game solved, rip. I think Eira and Frog were his top scumreads. I hate that we let him down.

I always tell myself that behavior trumps mechanics but I never act on it because I can never be persuasive about it. Eiralox is a prime example.

I don't have much to say about anything else? I enjoyed this playerlist overall.

Sorry for scumreading you Aisa, I really did hard townread you for almost the entire game. Just felt cornered when I was running out of scumreads, and you seemed like you'd be a fantastic scumplayer.

Elements was really fun to play with.

[Grib]

Next time I play, it's going to be open setups exclusively.

[Grib]

Why you didn't vote no-lim, mafia could't kill anyone without ruining teams.

I made too many bad assumptions. Didn't believe in Frog/Eiraslot because of Eira's votes and the fact that both scum were uncontested PR claims in a weird setup. I'm really sorry.

[Grib]

Ah OK, not been playing too long then?

I've only ever owned laptops, and for years I didn't have anything that could play games without lagging to hell and back. I'd been wanting to play DBD for YEARS and I got a gaming laptop only very recently.

[Grib]

Just read dead PT, and yeah, we did let Frog off the hook too easily. My thinking was there was already doubt about Frog being town, so the mafia weren't going to shoot him over Bella, because you can't really wine/tinfoil a Vig. And we were trying to figure out what scum PRs there could be with a claimed Doc and Eiralox's non-claim.

[Grib]

And given Bella wanted to shoot me, Frog could easily claim to have been blocked since they wouldn't need to block Bella.

I do wish we had held his feet over the fire more. But it didn't work with Eira, so. :V

[Grib]

And to think Shea dragged me through the mud for my case on you.

I'm actually impressed with that strategy and can definitely appreciate the effort that went into crafting a village that would be less likely to push your dodgy claims. And thanks for the kind words. <3

[Grib]

The power dynamics were too wonky imo, and is one reason I tinfoiled a scum JOAT with a vig shot. BBT was a free extra PR: essentially a loophole mafia bulletproof. The Masons were completely vulnerable and the Vig had limited access to the scum team. The worst case scenario of two Masons dying in the Night happened immediately, and it feels like that should’ve been one of the first balance-related issues to question. Mafia’s PR claims are more powerful because town is expecting -something- to balance out Masons and a Vig. I skimmed some of the recently completed mini normals and this felt like a really underpowered town in comparison.

Some of that isn’t the setup’s fault (we should’ve killed Eira for hiding his role). I think I would’ve liked to see how the Doc-and-Masons only setup played out. Seems like Friends and Enemies with a little spice added.

I don’t engage in creating setups or balancing games at all so this is all coming purely from a player POV. Thank you for hosting, though.