Mini Normal 2306: Game Over

[osuka]

I’m Miller. I know I have a tendency to troll claim other stuff, but I’m Miller here.

Nothing else, pure Miller. Full claim.

why do i not believe you

[osuka]

Preparation is no fond pursuit of mine - we are each embarking upon our journey to the peak of our own tree of variations, navigating their complexities ourselves, or perhaps, with companions. That ascent is where my strength lies, and so I remain confident.

JasonWazza:

JasonWazza is directing the game's course and making statements such that, already, useful context has been elucidated. I do not believe it likely, but in the event they do not share interests with town, their agenda is clearly that of town-siding scum, and I therefore give no consideration to voting them.

This player is very towny.

Takutai:

When one consciously heightens expectations of oneself and then immediately extends the hand, I am liable to shake (#35).

This player is slightly towny.

Sakura Hana:

There is something very... Sincere, about the insertion of #38 in the opening. While I cannot yet draw conclusions, I attribute sincerity to a town perspective, so it is worth noting.

lmao
VOTE: mikhail

[osuka]

JasonWazza voting me only reinforces that they are town, in my mind.

?????????????

[osuka]

VOTE: Roden

The likelihood that Roden is a power role is rather unthinkable. Therefore, I propose that he is voted today.

?????????????????

[osuka]

so i'm starting page 8 and i was thinking up until this point that mikhail has to be putting on an act, right

but at this point i'm really not so sure anymore so i find myself in a state of abject confusion as opposed to a vague sense of disbelief from page 5

[osuka]

Firebringer

osuka

Roden
Mikailtal
Norwegianboy
Sakura Hana
Alisae
Hu Tao

Random Nurse
JasonWazza
Dunnstral

Takutai

Town

-

Lean Town

-

Light Town

-

Neutral

-

Light Scum

-

Lean Scum

-

Scum

hahahahah what the fuck

why am i lean town? i havent done shit yet

[osuka]

if you claim miller right now you will get a free pass for the rest of the game

are you a miller yourself, by chance?

[osuka]

strike 2 on fade for mikhai.

To clarify why I am searching for potential power roles, I am also a power role. As there can only be so many power roles, it is useful to evaluate how realistic each of my prospective competitors' worlds are so that I may be self-aware of my own position.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

it's at this point i usually say "it's amateur hour" but that doesn't quite cut it

this is a fucking circus

[osuka]

hahahahah what the fuck is going on someone please wake me up, i have to be dreaming

theres no way any of this is real

[osuka]

i clearly got way too drunk over the weekend and i'm about to wake up on a sidewalk somewhere in another state

[osuka]

so i'm starting page 8 and i was thinking up until this point that mikhail has to be putting on an act, right

but at this point i'm really not so sure anymore so i find myself in a state of abject confusion as opposed to a vague sense of disbelief from page 5

Any further aspersions to that I am acting, and I am liable to ensure to you that I am not by way of the most direct means available to me.

go for it bud

[osuka]

if i get dayvigged on page 11 that's surely some sort of record so i'm all here for it

[osuka]

how does that even happen

you got a link?

[osuka]

how does that even happen

you got a link?

viewtopic.php?t=75744

thats my new goal

[osuka]

hahahahah what the fuck is going on someone please wake me up, i have to be dreaming

theres no way any of this is real

Does this mean that im a figment of your imagination.

probably yeah

[osuka]

At least five people so far have publicly expressed sentiments intended to minimise the value of my perspective, with pure optics - all things that could be best left to oneself, entirely unnecessary to bring forward to the gamestate. Consider reading JasonWazza's approach to engaging with me, if you would like insight as to how to be more respectful in the future.

Think you need to continue working on how your expressing your opinion because people are still confused on some of your positions/including me but im not invested in this game enough to question you on any of it.

As town you do not have the luxury to dismiss anyone else's perspective, barring hard information. I assert that anyone who chooses to do so is simply not fully playing to their win condition or is not town, and suggestions that I should fundamentally change who I am is tantamount to suggesting I should be pandering to a crowd. As I am town, I am rather more interested in playing the way I intend to play than guess at how others want me to, as I believe it should produce the best results, but I will reevaluate my framework with every successive game.

this is the first time youve made any sense this game so far

[osuka]

i dont necessarily agree but theres a reasonable idea there so yeah thats fair imo

[osuka]

this is a fucking circus

[osuka]

osuka what mafia game isn't a circus to you

thats besides the point

[osuka]

osuka what even is ur pfp

its a probe from starcraft

[osuka]

JasonWazza:

JasonWazza is directing the game's course and making statements such that, already, useful context has been elucidated.

I do not believe it likely, but in the event they do not share interests with town, their agenda is clearly that of town-siding scum, and I therefore give no consideration to voting them.

This player is very towny.

Based on which of JW's four prior posts?

I didn't get the impression he was trying to direct the game's course.

It is not in my interests to clarify further.

complete garbage take

if you want to further the game state, it IS very much in your interests to clarify, especially when prompted

[osuka]

Like bro you're dead.
You think someone is going to care about what a dead person thinks?
Not even real life works this way.

people ask to sig shit all the time

can i get this as an ass tat?

[osuka]

osuka what even is ur pfp

How do you not know Starcraft 2

welcome to the townbloc

[osuka]

I genuinely think if Mikhail is like a traitor his teammates are Roden and Takutai.
The possibility of that is so unlikely and I don't think their posting makes sense to be mafia so I am going to assume they're not mafia.

Is this because of all the Power Role shouting?

you wanna explain to me how all of his posting are mafia tactics? I'm all ears because Mikhail is falling the bucket of players of "Unlikely to be mafia but everyone will think they are mafia because ????????"

I mean, to me he doesnt make sense, as town, as scum, as 3p, as anything. Which is why im so confused. You're probably right occam's razor would say that they are probably just town anyway.

Have you considered that you may simply be lacking in empathy? One such judgement I am talking about, that is better kept to oneself.

i don’t think i’ve ever seen empathy in a mafia game

like ever

[osuka]

alright nerds, fret not. i'm here to save the day

[osuka]

i don’t think i’ve ever seen empathy in a mafia game

like ever

?

??

[osuka]

Sakura why do you need to act so outraged all the time. Let individuals be individuals. Mikhail is the kinda guy that claims everyone is PR and it's really funny and endearing. I like them and think they are highly likely town.

what on earth about that slot says town? it's nothing but air and big words

[osuka]

like anyone with a keyboard and a thesaurus can write that iso in a half hour

[osuka]

pagetop

[osuka]

i think norwe is kinda screaming town but im pretty sure ive been had by norwe in the past before so i'm not setting anything in stone because i'm scared of him

[osuka]

FL self-voting feels kinda manipulative and fake.

It is both of these

so you're saying youre _not_ miller?

[osuka]

Up to post #262, I'd like to see osuka do more than just continuously gawk at Mikhail's posts. Still reading through.

theres not much else to do lmao

[osuka]

Up to post #262, I'd like to see osuka do more than just continuously gawk at Mikhail's posts. Still reading through.

I want to know if you think osuka comes across as informed

?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿

[osuka]

Up to post #262, I'd like to see osuka do more than just continuously gawk at Mikhail's posts. Still reading through.

I want to know if you think osuka comes across as informed

As in what, Scum?

At this point it's too early to tell. Still reading through.

If someone is informed they are probably a wolf!
I imagine talking to Mikhail is something wolves are going to want to do

haha informed townie go brr

[osuka]

theres a pissing contest and im NOT part of it?

this game really is taking a turn for the fucking weird huh

[osuka]

mikhail has to be a gimmick alt, right? right???

[osuka]

This is the logical conclusion of Alisae's perspective. It is unfortunate that I am a power role and an asset to town, as I can no longer actively participate. I have established nobody will trust me, so I can trust nobody. Therefore I will modify my approach, and attempt to reach reflective equilibrium starting from the bottom up, working from Alisae's perspective that only mafia will want to interact with me. I will conclude everyone is untrustworthy one by one, and the final few to remain still cognisant of my insight must necessarily lean scum. This will be the final bit of information I attempt to provide to town, now that my slot is poisoned.

nothing's poisoned, guy. get a grip.

people will start believing you when you get the fuck off your high horse and start making sense and actually engaging other slots in meaningful conversation rather than just pretending like everyone's out to get you

[osuka]

At this point I'm caught up reading.

I'm Townreading Sakura and Alisae due to Scumhunting and engagement, but I am a bit apprehensive because they are voting Dunnstral who hasn't even posted anything yet.

Flavorleaf I can't tell either way.

Hu Tao I'm slightly Townreading.

Mikhail is bizarre. He's not playing to help Town, but he's not necessarily Scum either. Can't read him. He did mention getting policy limmed in a prior game: I'd want to know his alignment in that game.

Osuka slot gives me gut Scum vibes, because he's basically reacting to Mikhail's bizarreness but isn't doing much else, which makes me wonder why.

Dunnstral hasn't posted yet so I can't even form a read.

The rest are Null (Jason, Takuta, Roden, Fire).

I'd like Osuka to actually do something other than react to Mikhail. What are your reads?

VOTE: Osuka

let's see - you're pushing me because i haven't done anything other than engaging with the weirdest slot in the game, 24 hours into the first day, in a thread where 50% of the content is shitposts? good lord

feel free to ask whatever you want but i'm not gonna make shit up just to appease you

[osuka]

I agree with those points about Osuka actually

VOTE: Osuka

fucking rich coming from your slot. i've written more words in the past 10 minutes than you have the entire game

try again

[osuka]

Flavor Leaf:

Town Miller.

I have obtained

hard]/i], not soft, information that indicates that you are not Town Miller. I hard claim power role. If anyone would lend that any credence, please vote on Flavor Leaf.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[osuka]

Ok, first of all, why are we talking like we got 1 day left in the deadline, it's too early to think policy limming the miller or mikhail.
second of all, i said Norwee's reaction seemed to come from an informed perspective (a.k.a directly assuming Jason was scumreading and not sorting which could mean he knew he was town), after further posts from Norwee i don't think this is the case anymore.

townposting

[osuka]

Was originally gonna ask osuka for their reads but Nurse is already doing that, so let me add pressure
VOTE: osuka

an empty vote does not pressure make

do better

[osuka]

I don't like this vote. If nor is scum I can see him saving Tal by openly liking him.

This tho, is an interesting take.

interesting? it's an unhinged take. that's making so many leaps that even i struggle to give it a pass

[osuka]

people will start believing you when you get the fuck off your high horse and start making sense and actually engaging other slots in meaningful conversation rather than just pretending like everyone's out to get you

Is Mikhail mafia?

i think anyone that says they have a half-decent read on that slot is full of shit, because none of it makes any sense

i saw someone say they're noobtown and i can definitely see that being the case. i don't really have anything else, though, sorry

[osuka]

an empty vote does not pressure make

it actually does!

it really doesn't, and you and i both know better than to pretend like it does. you should _also_ know better than to say some shit of that caliber to me

both of us know that i'm not getting executed 30 hours into the first day of the game with a "pressure" wagon where only the first voter actually gave a half-assed reason and everyone else just sort of followed to see what happens

[osuka]

if you get alarm bells from me all game then that means i'm doing my job right

[osuka]

Osuka who is mafia

im not very sure yet but i'm watching a few exchanges

i wanna watch the game a bit longer before i start actually forming any reads. i don't have a hero solve or anything

[osuka]

an empty vote does not pressure make

it actually does!

it really doesn't, and you and i both know better than to pretend like it does. you should _also_ know better than to say some shit of that caliber to me

both of us know that i'm not getting executed 30 hours into the first day of the game with a "pressure" wagon where only the first voter actually gave a half-assed reason and everyone else just sort of followed to see what happens

Do you understand what pressure is?

i do. are we talking about the same thing?

[osuka]

i could just blow this entire thing off with very minimal effort and honestly, so could probably anyone else on this plist by virtue of the fact that everyone here has an internet connection and a computer. it really doesn't take much

[osuka]

i _would_ be worried about a flashwagon 24 hours from deadline, not 24 hours from the start of the game. nothing comes out of this one other than maybe someone shoving their head up their ass and deciding it's a good idea to deathtunnel me d1, but again we both know that amounts to very little

[osuka]

it's hard to pressure someone if you don't pose any risk. if you have a good case, that's pressure - the risk is that you'll convince other players that a given slot should be executed. if there's little time on the day, that's also pressure - wild shit happens all the time when the day gets lose to deadline

what's the risk here? i could just fuck off and nothing would happen

[osuka]

i'll be here in case anyone wants to talk about something other than what they think i should've done

[osuka]

Uh my vote wasnt empty, my vote was tied to asking for reads.
And you dont need a hero solve to be able to give a reads list, specially if you're being voted specifically to give reads (at least i am, and from what i recall nurse was as well).

i don't have good enough reads to give you a list and i categorically refuse to make shit up

[osuka]

i think norwe feels town but i'm generally wary of him as a player. i think alisae can go either way here and i think you're leaning town? FL is a mystery so i dont even try to read him d1. RN is a slot i wanna dig into more, but i feel like i need more content to do that. everyone else i don't have anything worth saying about for the time being

[osuka]

other than the slots that are null, all of that's already been said before

[osuka]

there's very little value to saying "hurrrrr this slot is null" so i dont do that because its a waste of everyone's time.

i hardly ever bother to put shit together in a list because that's way too much effort so if you want to know where my reads are at, i suggest you read what i've written in the thread. if there's something specific you want clarification on, feel free to ask but general "what do you think about the game?" sort of questions are just sort of garbage and don't really get anyone anywhere

[osuka]

it's hard to pressure someone if you don't pose any risk. if you have a good case, that's pressure - the risk is that you'll convince other players that a given slot should be executed. if there's little time on the day, that's also pressure - wild shit happens all the time when the day gets lose to deadline

what's the risk here? i could just fuck off and nothing would happen

When you pressure someone, the idea is to make them do something. When a player feels like they have to do something, that is pressure.
You got like, 5 votes. That is a lot of votes and those votes being on you forces you to feel like you have to do something. It doesn't matter if one vote is naked when you have a bunch of people voting you.
Pressure doesn't even need votes to be created. Generally if you read the room and there is a lot of people who want more from a slot but they're voting elsewhere, there is pressure on the slot in question to do things.
Mafia is like a game of ping pong. Eventually the game will get to the point where the gamestate can't really advance if specific slots don't do anything to advance it. This is generally something that happens in situations where people are waiting on a player to do something.

If you fucked off with what you just posted, I would push harder, and then that could eventually threaten an execution or get a claim. It wouldn't do you any good to do this. Yes town get distracted by shiny very easily and can go somewhere else, but when you're dealing with competency, this isn't going to happen reliably.

any half-competent town player can see right through that and will know that it's one step removed from a policy exec, so even if i did fuck off immediately that'd STILL be a hard sell

[osuka]

P-Edit: Feels like a weird take, that only Mafia will interact with what is a policy lim.

I feel like a villager would eventually get to the conclusion that it's just not worth their time where as mafia would probably love to just take one of their posts quote it and say how bad it is

i dont even know why im still engaging with this but this is so far from being AI that i almost think it's in bad faith

[osuka]

I agree with those points about Osuka actually

VOTE: Osuka

fucking rich coming from your slot. i've written more words in the past 10 minutes than you have the entire game

try again

Yeah but 90% of your posts are the equivalent of a Fine Bros React video with a pog face thumbnail

hey, at least i have posts you can say that about

you've done like fuck all the entire time

[osuka]

UNVOTE: Osuka

Why?

They have some good posts, and I need to do a double take on this game at this point.

What posts are good, none of his recent posts change or do anything for me

615 is good and i frankly missed that, makes me want to do a double take on what the fuck Mikhail is doing.

602 also feels like it's coming from town.

do u think 615 is something mafia isn't capable of coming up w/?
why does 602 feel like it comes from town?

Both of these are stupid questions and you know that.

So when I think of Osuka, what I think of is
- A lot of interactions with Mikhail that seems like they're pushing Mikhail but they're also talking to them like they're a villager. This is something I see w/ 611.
- 257 also comes across as strange to me.
- 321 I feel like comes from mafia. It could realistically come from anything but I think in this game it comes from mafia.
- 598 + 599 I want to say reads like mafia pushing a slot.

I feel like when I think of Osuka's posting, he's engaging w/ players in a way that doesn't really come across as wanting to be right, but rather comes across as wanting to be justified and maybe even informed.

idunno so like none of the recent posts really do anything for me.

going back to this real fast - what makes you think i'm informed?

[osuka]

Random Nurse: Mafia.

random nurse looks town too at this point? umm, is this game just really easy or something?

I'm gonna need the progression on this, because this makes no sense, given what was posted in this time frame.

miki just takes aspects of other folks' perspectives to their conclusions n sees how it feels about it over n over day 1~

flavor leaf is not the miller and i know who the miller is

, testing the contrapositive to its actual beliefs yin thinks?

what? are you saying fl is not miller? are you saying you know who is the miller, if not fl? what does this say?

[osuka]

Random Nurse: Mafia.

random nurse looks town too at this point? umm, is this game just really easy or something?

I'm gonna need the progression on this, because this makes no sense, given what was posted in this time frame.

miki just takes aspects of other folks' perspectives to their conclusions n sees how it feels about it over n over day 1~

flavor leaf is not the miller and i know who the miller is

, testing the contrapositive to its actual beliefs yin thinks?

FL could be a miller and someone else could also be a miller.

2 millers in a mini is pretty weird, no?

[osuka]

I could lim firepup.
Even tho i'd feel bad, coz he may have in'd here just to play with me.

you were one of the reasons

what about me? do i not get any love here?

[osuka]

Unrelated to the game but:
Why do i keep getting phpbb warnings at the top of the page everytime i ISO someone is this normal or is a me thing.

lmao thats the server serving a page with a php error at the top of the page

it's not normal but it's not a you thing either

[osuka]

going back to this real fast - what makes you think i'm informed?

I think you are mafia, therefore you are informed.

do you think i'm mafia, therefore informed, or informed, therefore mafia?

[osuka]

also can we like not execute with 7+ days on the clock? please and thank you

[osuka]

A miller w/o a cop in the setup is functionally a named townie. I don't believe they can be targeted by simple actions but they can be targeted by complex actions

mikhail hard claimed cop 🥴

[osuka]

going back to this real fast - what makes you think i'm informed?

I think you are mafia, therefore you are informed.

do you think i'm mafia, therefore informed, or informed, therefore mafia?

I think you engaged with the thread in a way that comes across as having more information than what the uninformed minority has.

do you have any posts you can point to? better yet, do you have any ideas as to what information you think i have?

[osuka]

i maintain that it's still WAY too early for an execution

[osuka]

I think effective use of the vote is uncommon and most players don't rly know how to effectively use their vote.

Yeah real talk, I came back to the site recently, why is it that like half the people around at the moment don't like using their vote at all?

Is there like an actual reason for it?

Mafia is a really hard game and it's not easy to play well, so there aren't a lot of players that really know what they're doing.
For me, I know what I am good at, I know what I'm not good at, and I've kind of defined my playstyle and how it is I approach the game.
A lot of people when they're villagers kind of just post what's on their mind and don't rly move about the game with intention

VOTE: alisae

how about this one for some intention?

[osuka]

holy shit you guys why are there 10 pages to read

[osuka]

A miller w/o a cop in the setup is functionally a named townie. I don't believe they can be targeted by simple actions but they can be targeted by complex actions

mikhail hard claimed cop 🥴

[Mikhail] Please provide proof of this claim. It is impossible to differentiate from a perspective slip, as it stands.

my bad, i went back through the iso and i reread your iso and you only claimed an unspecified "power role"

[osuka]

holy shit you guys why are there 10 pages to read

Yeah, we didnt post enough, there should've been 40!

this is fucked up alright

[osuka]

Either way you're wasting your vote as scum or town. So enjoy your lurk.

You know it's really funny to me, no matter what you say to me right now it goes right back against you.
You are essentially arguing against yourself and your own actions.

No I'm saying your vote is shit.

Do you actually mean that it's a shit vote, or is the push shit

Look at this filler from scum. A pointless thing to ask for someone who doesn't care. Okay Roden you're not voting me but why should I trust you here?

I call a scum in Alisae and Roden and look at all of the people who want to kill little old me for me it isntead of, you know, hunting scum :lol:

that's not filler though? that's an important distinction

i realize this is particularly hypocritical coming from me, but where's the outrage coming from?

[osuka]

good god what happened to mikhail


they left the thread and came back with 1001 and 1003? like, they're making sense?? what the fuck is going on

[osuka]

Kinda hate that the Osuka wagon evaporated but no one seems interested there atp.

my wagon never really had any real substance behind it so that doesn't raise alarms for me, but i do think the way the takutai wagon came about is fairly shady

[osuka]

hu tao's perspective is very unmarred and given time i see them very easily putting themselves on a billboard. takutai and osuka, from where i'm looking are more likely to reveal their brain's fucked up like mine and they've split an alter than consolidate their positions. i want either of them today.

you, with your words like knives and swords and weapons that you use against me, you

[osuka]

Like ur burning bridges left and right.

Why?

Because this game is too cluttered and misdirected for me to care.

if you’re not enjoying mafia u shouldn’t be playing mafia.

sanest alisae take in the thread so far

[osuka]

But then like what the fuck is going on in this game lmfao

never mind

this is the sanest alisae take in the thread so far

[osuka]

you decided the correct thing to do was sit on the fence and argue that it's technically a vantage point while everyone else is touching grass

+10 points for the poetry

[osuka]

[yin] yin's theory: this setup has exactly 3 millers~

???????

[osuka]

Oh, hell no, you're not turning me against my townreads.

What, so you would rather just have town reads that could be wrong then actually continue sorting people?

It's day 1, what are you expecting, and after mikhail's post im not voting anyone outside of RN or Mikhail today.

quoting this for my own future reference

[osuka]

If your just going to admit it's you then fine.

UNVOTE: NorwegianboyEE
VOTE: Alisae

????????????????????????????????????

[osuka]

Kinda hate that the Osuka wagon evaporated but no one seems interested there atp.

my wagon never really had any real substance behind it so that doesn't raise alarms for me, but i do think the way the takutai wagon came about is fairly shady

Jason explained why, fairly shady doesn't give us much to work with but I'll give you space to expand. Sakura was on both so I'll check how you interacted with her in the past, can be an exclusionary read.

it came on extremely quickly, which i'm generally wary of, and there's a whole lot of shit-flinging going on from both sides of it

that sort of wagon IME usually ends up, in retrospect, being a case of a wagon with a weak foundation and a defense with a similarly flawed reasoning. there's not much to gain from that and if scum can direct one of those to town, that's a best case scenario for them (because those are really hard to analyze meaningfully)

[osuka]

If your just going to admit it's you then fine.

UNVOTE: NorwegianboyEE
VOTE: Alisae

????????????????????????????????????

Perfectly sensible vote I'll love to see you back up your befuddlement with weight.

that's not what was said

go back and read it what alisae said in 1141. if you still don't understand it, keep reading it until you do. then feel free to come back and pretend like this exchange never happened if you'd like to save face

[osuka]

I guess i'll just have to do like some ppl do and keep quoting myself until people engage me on it or i get limmed due to annoying everyone, either result is fine.

welcome to the club

[osuka]

i'm sorry, what's 1196 in response to

[osuka]

Read? I wanted to say that in a meaner way and just say that but yup, osuka just feels fake and more concerned with keepng town image than flipping scum. That's a basic take and one of the things I can come up with off the top of my head.

you really do have me ass-backwards, don't you

[osuka]

I feel like I’m right on the money with Random Nurse scum, but really don’t have a compelling case.

im down to flashtrain if you are

[osuka]

fuck it here goes nothing
VOTE: random nurse

[osuka]

Voting someone doesn't do anything

an empty vote does not pressure make

it actually does!

?????????

[osuka]

There’s at least 3 Millers this game.

Me claiming Miller the way I did gets rid of one of my strongest tools as scum: the ability to fake claim to fit the situation I am in.

I have absolutely no defense because of my Miller claim besides a premature cop investigation.

where is everyone getting that there’s 3 millers? did i miss something?

[osuka]

I keep seeing people say there's 3 millers in this game, i don't really get why? When did this get confirmed?

It’s not confirmed, but I could tell Mik slot was a Miller by the way they were acting towards mine.

The 3rd one hasn’t claimed yet, but yeah, there’s subtext about it, so I not gonna out them here

oh turns out reading the thread helps a lot huh

[osuka]

There’s at least 3 Millers this game.

Me claiming Miller the way I did gets rid of one of my strongest tools as scum: the ability to fake claim to fit the situation I am in.

I have absolutely no defense because of my Miller claim besides a premature cop investigation.

where is everyone getting that there’s 3 millers? did i miss something?

Why did you ask me if I was a miller or not?

youve been playing weird, but honestly it was sort of a reaction test

[osuka]

There’s at least 3 Millers this game.

Me claiming Miller the way I did gets rid of one of my strongest tools as scum: the ability to fake claim to fit the situation I am in.

I have absolutely no defense because of my Miller claim besides a premature cop investigation.

where is everyone getting that there’s 3 millers? did i miss something?

Why did you ask me if I was a miller or not?

youve been playing weird, but honestly it was sort of a reaction test

explain the reaction test to me

yes so i did something unexpected to test what your reaction was

[osuka]

There’s at least 3 Millers this game.

Me claiming Miller the way I did gets rid of one of my strongest tools as scum: the ability to fake claim to fit the situation I am in.

I have absolutely no defense because of my Miller claim besides a premature cop investigation.

where is everyone getting that there’s 3 millers? did i miss something?

Why did you ask me if I was a miller or not?

youve been playing weird, but honestly it was sort of a reaction test

explain the reaction test to me

yes so i did something unexpected to test what your reaction was

Is that it?
Was it seriously that poorly thought out?

no it wasn’t. there’s an actual reason but i can’t be bothered to explain it right now because i gotta take a shower and figure out this here dinner situation, i’ve been in front of the computer all day

i’ll get to this later

[osuka]

1 wolf in {Jason, Fire, Sakura}. I would execute these players in the order that I written them in.
I think osuka asking me if I was a miller isn't a reaction test but a blatant attempt at rolefishing. Usually reaction tests have thought processes behind them (see me putting my vote down on Norwee and faking a fos on him to see what he does) so him writing that rolefishy question off as a reaction test comes off as sketchy to me.

I'm drawing a blank on who the last one could be.

sorry for the delay - i had a migraine last night and i had to get the fuck away from all sources of light

the reason i originally asked you if you were miller was that iirc you were the first (or at least you were talking about) a multi-miller setup. i didn't really believe the fl miller claim to begin with and even now i'm a bit iffy on it, but if you were miller then i'd actually be more inclined to believe it (not less) because i can see this being a wacko multi-miller setup where fl feels like just claiming right out of the gate

that said - why does rolefishing a miller even matter? even if you were _forced_ to answer that question, "not miller" is an answer that gives basically net zero information. replying with "no i'm not miller, i'm actually vig" is insane - and similarly, expecting that outcome is just as insane. it makes no sense to role fish with "are you miller", because that gets you no information and that's even assuming you don't get "none of your business" as a response, which is perfectly fair given the question was completely out of the blue. do you seriously think that's an effective way to rolefish?

[osuka]

i like alisae's read progression for the most part but it's posts like 1590 that make me really scratch my head. like she knows better than to say and do shit like that, so why is that post framing my initial question as if it makes sense to rolefish like that? it makes so little sense that again, i'm back to almost thinking this has ill intent behind it

[osuka]

staying on topic: i'm completely puzzled by the mere existence of alisae's string of posts in 1614-1629. that reads town - but i wonder if it's in her scumrange? like i struggle to see that coming from scum unless it's some galaxy brain play to get towncred, because she sets up an excellent push and then goes "yeah actually i think that slot's town", which has me going ?????

why is that level of analysis only happening for some slots? her analysis on me in particular jumps out as being particularly simplistic and just sort of shallow and empty compared to this caliber of play

[osuka]

Oh wait that's the same post you quoted earlier, lol

yes

[osuka]

Osuka, it is.

Sheepsaymeep is also Miller.

right but i didn't know that when i asked her if she was miller

[osuka]

Okay, you are 2012.

I’m sure we’ve played multiple times together. In fact, I have no doubt.

I’m also Boonskiies, if you didn’t know. Haven’t played on that account in a long time, but been since ‘14

rip boon, you were ic in my first newbie game on ms iirc

[osuka]

Jason is town like basically everyone in my townlist except the second maybe. Scum basically still in osuka, alisae, firebringer, sakura. Add flavor leaf for that spice.

I no longer have any desire to be part of this gameday it's a lot to read all these pages of nothing arguing each morning. So hear from me if I'm alive once we have flips.

I'm happy seeing this elim.

VOTE: osuka

should i laugh?

[osuka]

I regret everything

mood

[osuka]

I still think Dunn is scum and the proper vote today but I'm getting stone walled

Dunnstral is a vanilla town but I'll hammer him to end the day. Scum have zero chance of winning this.

every time i feel like i should just vote your slot for either being scum or a townie with their head lodged up their ass, i see something like this and then my read is completely out the window because i can't possibly be expected to take this sort of shit seriously, right?

[osuka]

Roden what do you think of Norwee

Tonally they seem town to me and they haven't done anything I particularly disagree with. Or at least nothing I can remember off the top of my head. And I find a lot of his posts relateable.

If I'm misreading his tone then I legit need a frame by frame replay here

I don't think this is great for reading Norwee.
Wolf!Norwee is easy to spot if has a clear agenda or something he wants.
Wolf!Norwee is someone who wants to look good and he wants to be justified as opposed to when he's town. When Norwee is town the guy just wants to be right. I think his latest posting towards my posting comes across as him wanting to look good and be justified. I don't think he has a genuine read or concern on my slot at all, I think he's just voting and taking pot shots at me to try to just make me look bad.

i can get down with a norwe exec d1

his posting is not at all like i remember it

[osuka]

Voting :clap: nurse :clap: the :clap: afk :clap: slot: does :clap: nothing :clap:

i think thats where my vote is atm so you know fuck it
VOTE: alisae

[osuka]

Roden you're claiming that Alisae aren't pushing me for real and only doing it for reactions like before? I disagree, i think it is very clearly a real push from them right now.
If it's not working then she's just doing it badly as scum imo. Not everything needs to be galaxy brain.

In fact i thought the first "reaction test" might have been an pocketing attempt on me, that's why i said just after their reaction test that i still didn't townread Alisae. And i meant it.

like initially i thought it was an ok push but then you responded and nothing came out of it, so ?????

alisae's entire game has been setting up pushes on slots and then doing fucking nothing about it. i'm genuinely at a loss as to what that means, because as town the only reason you'd do that is to bait scum (as pointed out) but then nobody's falling for it and she's still doing it after 70 pages?

[osuka]

ok so i just got to a votecount that has rn at e-2 and i kinda wanna put my vote back on there

i'll catch up first and probably return my vote on it unless the last few pages have something crazy, since the alisae wagon probably isnt gonna happen d1

[osuka]

If Alisae is scum here, they are trying to buddy up to me to make it look like we're scum together.

I do get town vibes from Alisae the past couple pages, but I'm also weak to buddying.

Norwegian is always a good investigate here, I feel.



Sorry, I'm outting you, Alisae.

Alisae has been softing Miller. Do not investigate them. It's WIFOM. I want that out now so we dont have any possible accidents.

I was considering waiting till norwee showed up to claim in front of him but tbh I think if there’s a cop they actually know :P

If we’re doing this now, let me get to a computer then.
But yes I’m a miller and I have a bunch of softs and crumbs throughout the day

?????????????????????????????

[osuka]

UNVOTE: alisae

[osuka]

Voting :clap: nurse :clap: the :clap: afk :clap: slot: does :clap: nothing :clap:

i think thats where my vote is atm so you know fuck it
VOTE: alisae

Random was E-2 with your vote on it, so Alisae was just wrong with it.

Why do you feel the need to hop off and change the momentum of the game?

didn't realize it was e-2 melting face emoji

i kinda wanna hop on that wagon again as i said but i do want to finish these last few posts

[osuka]

Sheep I have experience with and it's always a struggle trying to read him because his Scum game tends to match his Town game (from personal experience).

Sheep replaced Mikhail and first thing he did was claim Miller. What do you make of this.

Do you or do you not think it's possible more than one Miller could exist?

If not, why?

I've been shown proof enough that it is possible, Mikhail did not claim Miller in their first post, sheep however did do so, do you think this makes sheep town or are they fake claiming? since you know their meta more than me (i've never played with them).

Mik hail did talk about how he didnt believe my claim based on stuff they knew, which as a Miller, makes perfect sense to me that a newer player thinking they were counterclaiming me.

i mean look as far as im concerned you and mikhail are both locktown now

[osuka]

VOTE: random nurse
that's e-3 if i counted right

[osuka]

the bigger question is if all the miller claims are real.
survey right now says yes
my gut says no

im actually leaning to scum know about millers and claimed early which i think indicates FL the most
Would be spicy.

But i don't care for pushing this theory unless flavor is here past like day 4.

Well last time i played town me vs scum FL he got caught due to a bad fake claim. So i'd imagine he'd be salivating at that idea. Would he be the one to lock himself into a claim where he isnt supposed to act during the night? That is the question.

let's talk about these millers for a second

do we seriously think the miller claims are fake? do we think there's _3 fake miller claims_ out there? here's what i'm seeing:

- 3 people claimed miller
- i dont see them teamed together
- i dont see anyone even soft or crumb a pr that you'd typically see in a 1-miller setup
- i see a 4-miller setup that i can actually believe this is based off of
- i dont see fl being scum here
- i see alisae's claim as the only one i currently doubt because it came at a very, very opportune time
- i also see alisae's post history and the reasons that i asked her whether she was miller were real and still stand, so i'm also not all that doubtful of that claim
- i don't see scum doing a double miller fakeclaim
- i definitely don't see 2 townies fakeclaiming miller on top of a scum miller fake claim

so, you know, what the fuck?

[osuka]

btw if i was a cop i think i would check osuka tonight

thats the only way you can figure out my alignment pre-flip, so props to you for realizing it

[osuka]

Poke the hornet's nest and they all come after you.
Yeah team is probably Ali/Nurse/FL i try to get Nurse elmininated and the entire scum team comes against me.

I still don’t get how you are so confident on Nurse.
FL posts i don’t think are scummy by themselves i just found it sus how they seemed so intrinsically tied to Alisae, but now they seemed pretty focused on showing why that isn’t the case.
Could be distancing but it seems somewhat genuine so i’m wondering if i could be wrong there.

well i was calling Alisae scum all game, and then people started saying we're tied, and then i started to not think they were scum.

wait a minute,

that's

what convinced you? why?

[osuka]

1 wolf in {Jason, Fire, Sakura}. I would execute these players in the order that I written them in.
I think osuka asking me if I was a miller isn't a reaction test but a blatant attempt at rolefishing. Usually reaction tests have thought processes behind them (see me putting my vote down on Norwee and faking a fos on him to see what he does) so him writing that rolefishy question off as a reaction test comes off as sketchy to me.

I'm drawing a blank on who the last one could be.

sorry for the delay - i had a migraine last night and i had to get the fuck away from all sources of light

the reason i originally asked you if you were miller was that iirc you were the first (or at least you were talking about) a multi-miller setup. i didn't really believe the fl miller claim to begin with and even now i'm a bit iffy on it, but if you were miller then i'd actually be more inclined to believe it (not less) because i can see this being a wacko multi-miller setup where fl feels like just claiming right out of the gate

that said - why does rolefishing a miller even matter? even if you were _forced_ to answer that question, "not miller" is an answer that gives basically net zero information. replying with "no i'm not miller, i'm actually vig" is insane - and similarly, expecting that outcome is just as insane. it makes no sense to role fish with "are you miller", because that gets you no information and that's even assuming you don't get "none of your business" as a response, which is perfectly fair given the question was completely out of the blue. do you seriously think that's an effective way to rolefish?

i like alisae's read progression for the most part but it's posts like 1590 that make me really scratch my head. like she knows better than to say and do shit like that, so why is that post framing my initial question as if it makes sense to rolefish like that? it makes so little sense that again, i'm back to almost thinking this has ill intent behind it

staying on topic: i'm completely puzzled by the mere existence of alisae's string of posts in 1614-1629. that reads town - but i wonder if it's in her scumrange? like i struggle to see that coming from scum unless it's some galaxy brain play to get towncred, because she sets up an excellent push and then goes "yeah actually i think that slot's town", which has me going ?????

why is that level of analysis only happening for some slots? her analysis on me in particular jumps out as being particularly simplistic and just sort of shallow and empty compared to this caliber of play

Oh wait that's the same post you quoted earlier, lol

yes

Osuka, it is.

Sheepsaymeep is also Miller.

right but i didn't know that when i asked her if she was miller

Jason is town like basically everyone in my townlist except the second maybe. Scum basically still in osuka, alisae, firebringer, sakura. Add flavor leaf for that spice.

I no longer have any desire to be part of this gameday it's a lot to read all these pages of nothing arguing each morning. So hear from me if I'm alive once we have flips.

I'm happy seeing this elim.

VOTE: osuka

should i laugh?

I still think Dunn is scum and the proper vote today but I'm getting stone walled

Dunnstral is a vanilla town but I'll hammer him to end the day. Scum have zero chance of winning this.

every time i feel like i should just vote your slot for either being scum or a townie with their head lodged up their ass, i see something like this and then my read is completely out the window because i can't possibly be expected to take this sort of shit seriously, right?

This is how scum re-renters a thread, taking pointers from Sakura's success. Like come on town don't let Flavor Leaf keep bullying you into being naive on this slot it' scum, I don't need to explain why this is just a player who has absolutely no interest to be there about town and they're aroogantly thinking they can also bully their way to survival just by posting.

These are people who have achieved nothing and looked nowhere and people are worshiping the ground they walk on for radiating towniness, because someone is leading them around on leash telling them to do so. This game has become a surrealism and I'm just laughing lol cos I'm done with it.

VOTE: Osuka

garbage push. if i took a shit on the keyboard and set myself on fire, i could come up with a better post than this. there are things to push me for but they aren't any of the ones you quoted

i would say nice try but i'd be lying. let me know if you have anything that warrants an intelligent response

[osuka]

Got some unfortunate RL family issues going on rn. I’ll try to keep up anyway but i’ll reserve my tight to just disappear from the thread at any time if i need to.

hope things get better for you norwe

[osuka]

i honestly cant get myself to believe taku is scum here but they're a fucking liability so i'm almost willing to policy exec that slot

[osuka]

osuka do u wanna claim

yeah i'm miller

[osuka]

i honestly cant get myself to believe taku is scum here but they're a fucking liability so i'm almost willing to policy exec that slot

r they a liability because they dislike you??????????

no, they're a liability because somehow they're at least as much of a hothead as i am and, most importantly, they make zero sense. it's just been shit flinging coming from that slot regardless of who's getting targeted

you can see the same pattern of bad but passionate pushes with several other players than myself

[osuka]

snipe

[osuka]

before you get to "hurrrrrrr osukas fake claiming miller" just go back through my iso and do a search for "miller" and youll find plenty of very conspicuous questions and statements

youll also find on your own iso, alisae, what i thought was a very strong suspicion that i was a miller (which you nailed - good job)

[osuka]

that's also why i'm inclined to believe that there _are_ several millers here and that's why in my mind, FL and mikhail are locktown. alisae is not because by the time she claimed, it was already sort of obvious that this was a multi-miller setup and she did seem to know with near-certainty that i also rolled miller, so her claim could be fake but i don't think it is

FL and mikhail couldnt possibly have known this was a multi-miller setup when they claimed so even though i didnt believe FL initially, i do now

[osuka]

i honestly think there's a very, very good chance we're in that 4-miller setup FL mentioned a while back (search for "willbooster") or something very close to it

[osuka]

crumbing is a load of shit half the time

if it's subtle enough to only be evident in retrospect and with knowledge of the claim, you can easily get away with crumbing several roles and only disclosing part of the crumbs

[osuka]

i honestly think there's a very, very good chance we're in that 4-miller setup FL mentioned a while back (search for "willbooster") or something very close to it

jesus fucking christ maybe you are town

always have been

[osuka]

crumbing is a load of shit half the time

if it's subtle enough to only be evident in retrospect and with knowledge of the claim, you can easily get away with crumbing several roles and only disclosing part of the crumbs

ok
now who

actually

does this?

pretty sure ive done that years ago

please dont ask me to find the game, i dont fucking remember what the game was let alone what the crumbs were

[osuka]

to be fair it didn't amount to anything but you can often look back through your own iso from the perspective of "what if I was X other role" and youll find plenty of believable """""crumbs"""""

[osuka]

point being, crumbing is again a load of shit most of the time so i dont actually give it any credit. for it to hold any real value it has to be more pointed, such as:

I’m Miller. I know I have a tendency to troll claim other stuff, but I’m Miller here.

Nothing else, pure Miller. Full claim.

why do i not believe you

[osuka]

"crumbing" and confbias go hand in hand. unless you have something really groundbreaking youre probably not gonna change my mind because it's not a disagreement about what crumbs are or how often people do what. it's the fact that crumbs have plausible deniability, which makes them useless - unless they're overt, in which case it's not really crumbing anymore

[osuka]

It's not like I liked that first honeymoon w/ FL anyways why would I even want to go for a round 2, it's not like I like him or anything

(I mean I just take a look at him and like sometimes I think I see myself in the mirror and like omg you so fuckin precious when you smile)

this means nothing, and

Goddamit Alisae already throwing wifom from post 1.
I haven't played mafia in so long that i probably forgot everyone's meta. Also for the best since I think I wanted to move away from that.

VOTE: Firepup

Your meta on me is probably outdated anyways and I think u would struggle to sort me even if u had a cop result on me

this is iffy but ill give you the benefit of the doubt

[osuka]

The fact that we have like zero in common this game

I think we have more in common than you think!

this is a good one

[osuka]

anyway who gives a shit, i'm not considering executing any of the miller claims today so i'll hop on the norwe bus as soon as this votecount comes out and hopefully he gets to at least claim before he gets bonked

[osuka]

"crumbing" and confbias go hand in hand. unless you have something really groundbreaking youre probably not gonna change my mind because it's not a disagreement about what crumbs are or how often people do what. it's the fact that crumbs have plausible deniability, which makes them useless - unless they're overt, in which case it's not really crumbing anymore

no I disagree you are wrong sorry

right back at ya

[osuka]

osuka if ur a miller why the fuck would u respond to me saying i would cop u with the fact thats the only way to tell ur alignment.

that makes no fucking sense if ur town

because nobody puts a cop in a 3-miller setup

that's so much worse than useless it's anti-town

[osuka]

Osuka why didn't you claim early?

because i wanted to see where the game went? i originally was skeptical of FL's claim but i wanted to see how far i could withhold that information

i gained a fair amount off of it so i'd do it again

[osuka]

that was a stab at you because you cant read me, fb

if you wanna execute me off of that then by all means go ahead, i'll be validated in saying none of you can read me worth a shit

[osuka]

i'd also been actively playing stupid for the past several hundred posts so you know whatever but fuck it, i'm not discussing this unless someone actually has a half-decent question

[osuka]

i'll be validated in saying none of you can read me worth a shit

it's ok, 10 years ago no one could read me either. What's your point with this statement?

complete non-sequitur but ok

my point is none of you can read me

[osuka]

Is your objective to be read as town or to find scum.

my objective is to find scum but i can only do that if im alive, which is where "not being obvtown" comes into play

please dont make me say this again, it comes up in every fucking game nowadays and im sick of it

[osuka]

I'm just going to point out to everyone, that I still think this setup has informed Mafia, even with what is going on.

what do you think mafia is informed of?

[osuka]

okay just tell me this: do you think they're informed of th miller count or the fact that there are multiple millers?

[osuka]

because if we _are_ in the setup FL posted, the neighborizer should target someone other than the millers because that's the only role iirc that can actually get a guilty, if you believe the miller claims

[osuka]

we aren't in the setup FL posted

and you know this because?

[osuka]

alright fuck it here we go
VOTE: firebringer

[osuka]

2366 only comes from you if you're informed, a pr, or scum. i don't believe you're a pr and if you're informed then you might as well just say it, because i'm not getting off of this wagon today

[osuka]

Osuka willbooster is not a role that can be in normal games so we can't be in the setup FL posted

oh im a fucking idiot huh

[osuka]

carry on

[osuka]

VOTE: osaka
Yeah, i dont really believe you're a miller.

osaka is a city

vote is of about the same quality as the push, so at least you got that going for ya

[osuka]

im willing to vote norwe if firebringer doesnt happen

[osuka]

im willing to vote norwe if firebringer doesnt happen

You know what
I'll take this
VOTE: Norwee

is there a reason i missed you dont wanna vote fb?

[osuka]

alright ill switch my vote if the firebringer wagon dies down, but i still do prefer firebringer

[osuka]

theres 30+ hours on the deadline so im not super pressed about executing today anyway

even better if norwe logs in and gets his 1:1 with firebringer, i do wanna see that

[osuka]

UNVOTE: firebringer

there u go

ok
VOTE: norwe