Mini 1346: Flavorless Mafia - GAME OVER

[Tammy]

Junpei - PFFFFTTTTTT!!!!! Fake Dayvig's are lame. Though make it good. And Quick. I would hate to waste some time reading 24 pages to find out that Slaxx is scum.

Wait whut?

I don't know who's scum...I only read your post Junpei. Are you scum?

Although your point #1 is accurate...I'm the DLG spot right? Town.

I have a couple things to do then I'll read the thread and post here.

Wait...are you really asking me to claim? Have you guys massed already?

[Tammy]

Oh but sure...why not. I'm Nilla wafers.

[Tammy]

Tammy: Claim your role in your next post

I'm vanilla don't care about claiming. :shrug:

[Tammy]

Tammy: Why did you claim?

[Tammy]

Junpei - The first thing I see when arriving is you telling me to claim. And now you're asking me why? Like, seriously, wtf.

Oh, town points to Slaxx. Like massive. Not lynching him. Or voting for him. I'm pretty sure I know the birdie, so yeah. Still haven't read the thread, but hmmm...

[Tammy]

You want to meta me off of one game? Like wtf? I see a game with what 7 people left and you think that I don't think it's reasonable that you guys have massed already.

And, nope! I didn't read to make sure you were telling the truth. You could lynch me for it. That would make a whole lot of sense. Hurrdurr.

[Tammy]

Slaxx - How strong is your town read on Junpei???

[Tammy]

Okay...then lynch me. And we'll see when I flip...Nilla.

This makes it read like you don't care what you're saying Junpei.

[Tammy]

If I was wrong i would probably take a very small blow to my ego, but that's a totally serious statement.

Your town read on Junpei is that serious?

[Tammy]

Junpei - Do you have reasonable expectations for me to believe that you hadn't massclaimed with so few people left? If no, then what's your problem.

Slaxx - Did your birdie tell you how to read me?

[Tammy]

Where was any implication Junpei? Or appeals to whatever buzzword of the moment? If you think you read me so well from GvE, you should at least understand that I don't

imply

much. I say exactly what I mean.

[Tammy]

Also, Junpei - I'm going to accept that you're telling the truth of sorts, not of the dayvig cuz that's dumb, but of the massclaim upon me replacing in. Because lying about something like that is your own death sentence. So, you ask me to claim, when there are seven people left, I'm going to accept there's reasons for it because you wouldn't endanger yourself. Capisce?

[Tammy]

Junpei -

PFFFFTTTTTT!!!!! Fake Dayvig's are lame.

Though make it good. And Quick. I would hate to waste some time reading 24 pages to find out that Slaxx is scum.

Wait whut?

I don't know who's scum...I only read your post Junpei. Are you scum?

Although your point #1 is accurate...I'm the DLG spot right? Town.

I have a couple things to do then I'll read the thread and post here.

Wait...are you really asking me to claim? Have you guys massed already?

I put lines which imply doubt of my dayvig claim in bold. I underlined a completely out of line statement. Why were you addressing who you thought were scum before reading anything? Why attack me like that?

Oh. My. God.

Do you have a sense of humor Junpei?

Do you like to laugh?

Take walks along the beach and smile?

I was joking. I hadn't read a damn thing. I called Slaxx and you scum in that post...the two names I recognized. You thought it was serious? Like W.T.F???

[Tammy]

I think my birdie might have discusses your play before the crash. My birdie and I talk quite a bit. Don't remember much though. Have to male room for pretending to care about school and stuffs

Before the crash? We just got done playing a team mafia game together. I thought that's where you're birdie came from. Now I'm confused.

[Tammy]

K...K...all is right with the world.

[Tammy]

Hmm....KK is on the chopping block.

Yeah, not reading the game. Cuz that's helpful.

I'll make you a deal Mr. Khan...if you can blindfold shot a 50...I'll not read the game and vote for whoever you like.

Or not...because that'd be dumb.

[Tammy]

Rainbowdash is scum!!!

I replaced DLG right? Yeah, RD is scum.

[Tammy]

No, I haven't. I'm actually working right now, so I haven't gotten very far. Like in a few, I'll be able to focus.

Hey...did your birdie tell you how to read me. You should be able to by now if you know...you know?

[Tammy]

Okay...just tell me whatever crap I need to know up front. Make this easy, yes?

[Tammy]

Pfft. Junpei's a bore.

Okay cool on RD...will make the read through much easier to make sense of.

KK...I think Slaxx is right. How do you feel about gut reads from little interaction?

I...like stupid words and stuff...wall posters of the world unite!!!

[Tammy]

Is anyone else confirmed???

[Tammy]

Oh also...sorry for the spam...but I've never played with DLG. How are his instincts?

[Tammy]

Has Junpei been confirmed to anyone besides Slaxx?

[Tammy]

Stop spamming. It's unhelpful, makes the game harder to read, and will make life harder on possible future replacements (though this playerlist looks solid and I doubt we'll have any) as well as people who fall behind (like Psyche).

Just finish your work and then afterwards read the thread and post thoughts please. You're funny and everything but this game has been very tidy overall when it comes to spam and you're ruining it.

Also, why are you criticizing when you know my posting style? You pulled up a quote of mine from GvE. Did you think I wouldn't remember how you played there either? Big difference Junpei...big difference.

[Tammy]

VOTE: Junpei[/b]

On page two...cool cool.

[Tammy]

DAMMIT

VOTE: Junpei

[Tammy]

Stop spamming. It's unhelpful, makes the game harder to read, and will make life harder on possible future replacements (though this playerlist looks solid and I doubt we'll have any) as well as people who fall behind (like Psyche).

Just finish your work and then afterwards read the thread and post thoughts please. You're funny and everything but this game has been very tidy overall when it comes to spam and you're ruining it.

Also, why are you criticizing when you know my posting style? You pulled up a quote of mine from GvE. Did you think I wouldn't remember how you played there either? Big difference Junpei...big difference.

I remember long posts with detailed analysis... and emotion which was irritating. I don't remember spammy posting that isn't productive.

If you have reason to suspect me let me know so I can clear it up, if you read the game you should know everyones' reads. That alone should get rid of a few of your posts.

pedit: ...PLEASE don't spam when you catchup. Can't you just read everything and post in the end?

Long posts...irritating emotional posts...spammy posts...they're all me.

The main thing you should remember from it all is that I don't do what people tell me to do...so your advice is unnecessary. I'll tell you why I find you suspicious at the end if I still do. Which from your beginning and ending posts, is probably a given.

[Tammy]

Erm...balance question? 3 scum in this setup or 2? At my site there'd be 2, but you guys usually have more than I'm used to.

[Tammy]

RD- What is your read on Junpei?

[Tammy]

OMG - I love my predecessor. I've never been that cool and calm when about to be lynched. Like I want to take lessons. Yeah, this is SPAM...

Slaxx - Couldn't figure out how to read Junpei as town in early day one. Might be important to remember.

Meh,..my predecessor had a townish feel for Junpei - don't know why. But, Slaxx voted for him, which gives me a good early feeling for Slaxx.

You know I've been told my monologuish catch-up posts are interesting to no one and full of fluff - I say Fuck You if you feel that way :shrug:

DLG: Inconsistent reads are indicative of a faulty line of thought. Somewhere, you consciously wrote something which was contradictory and did not correct it. Mafia would do this because their reasons aren't through investigation of the situation (which would cause context making the error clear) but rather trying to find someone to suspect (thus attacking people for inconsistent reasons).

Bullshit! Inconsistent reads show a sign of someone who changes their mind based on new posts not faulty lines of thought. It is absolutely faulty to think that mafia do this kind of crap. Mafia are less likely because they typically re-read what they write to make sure these things are missing. Inconsistency is actually a town tell. (Slaxx will probably disagree with me on this because he said a post of mine in another game was stupid regarding contradictions, but whatever)

I wasn't saying you were posting the most in content, I guess a better way to phrase that is post:content ratio. I feel like the questions you ask don't really lead anywhere productive, and you're pushing other people to do your legwork for you with them.

What happened to this? This is a really fair assessment of Junpei. Why is he your strongest town read now?

Ah Slaxx is a townhunter. ~sorta too. Though is Slaxx really? Confused by Junpei saying he's not. Dont' know what to make of it. Probs nothing really.

Oh.
Farside:
No I meant that he wanted us to look at his meta to show that he is town. That he wants us to see that he is playing to his town meta. You can not look at one alignments' meta in a vacuum, you must look at both. Additionally, in case this is what you're talking about, if DLG is scum doing what I was saying, then he definitely would want us to see he's playing like his town meta, not that he's playing like his scum meta, obviously. Of course in order to do this, we'd have to look at both alignments and compare it to this game.

Blah blah blah...you're talking with marbles in your mouth. If it's necessary feel free to check out my scum meta...you already know my town meta...to come to your grand determination. Meh...with every post Junpei makes he looks scummier and scummier...just sayin. Huehuehue...my predecessor calls you out later...you're making faulty arguments Junpei...

Let's lynch Junpei!!!

Sheep me!!! Go go go Junpei wagon Go! (Okay I'm only on page 10, does he do something remarkably townie or something after?)

Okay wait...Slaxx said he didn't think I was town before

Okay confused...why did predec say he was unsure if our role exists??? I had to go back and double check to make sure I wasn't on crack when I read it the first time. Vanilla...like standard role. Maybe D's a gambiter??? (Oh, and predec was awesome for any of you who say amished like a fuckwit...just saying)

Slaxx gives a town-scum list. Fairies die!!! I hope you're happy. I don't know what to make of Slaxx. I've read him wrong before. (Heheheheheheh...really read the game before I read my role pm in the last game we played together and thought he was scummy when he was innocent, and now I'm all keblunk on what his alignment is.)

Oh WTF!!! Junpei you are a jerk. Everyone had already massclaimed and so had my predecessor as VT. Try and trip me up in something. SCUM SCUM SCUM

SLAXX - DID YOUR BIRDIE TELL YOU HOW TO READ ME?????????????????????????????

I'm at the end of page 10...don't know if I'll finish by tonight. I'll try.

[Tammy]

Meh...I like Iknal who is now KK...why are we voting him again? Meh...maybe...I need to think.

Slaxx - stop doing partner analysis and exclusions before a flip. I realize you and your birdie love to do this kind of crap, but it just sets you down terribly wrong paths more often than not, yes?

Oh Farside is an acceptable lynch as well from the way she jumped all over FC.

@Psyche

in Post 285 you say that if FC is town then Farside being scum rises...does that change for you?

FC wasn't a VI...he read as a newb. Newbs are not VI's.

WTF??? OMGUS is not a scumtell. You guys are smoking crack or something. Just sayin.

Hey Slaxx - How about looking at independently scummy behavior instead of relational tells? Just sayin.

I'm just going to skip over Farside's self-vote cuz it's uberscummy.

Junpei - Do you always do site background checks of people like you do in Post 322?

Page 14 - Why aren't Junpei and Farside voting one another?

Oh wait...Jun is voting Farside, why isn't Far voting Jun? Their interaction feels off and fabricated.

Meh...if anyone had any doubts about my predecessor they should have been alleviated in Post 384. Tomorrow, I'll read it again to see if I can find Junpei as town as he did. But, he didn't read Slaxx as scum, which is jiving with my gut read on Slaxx...sort of though I did say I couldn't quite read him right? I don't really remember...but I do know it wasn't strong scum.)

Post 418 is where I see the towniness in Slaxx...misguided cuz based on relational tells but townie nonetheless


Hey KK - If you have a town read on my slot, why the comment about breaking out the darts? I mean cuz...not cool You know. I should be investigated though!!! I love being cleared. I don't like his opening contribution though. Feels shallow and fake.

RainbowDash

Would somepony be willing to explain her town read on Iknal/KK pretty hoof please???

Also, can someone break it down for me how anyone is confirmed. I'm not seeing names turned green on the front page.

Post 446 confuses me. KK gives a nice long theory about why Slaxx is scum then votes FC...why? Shouldn't he have been pushing the Slaxx thing?

I don't get the KK thing against Slaxx. I've replaced into a game after keeping up but gone back through to ask particular questions and comment on things through a re-read. This, just like his introduction post, feels shallow and WHY ISN'T HE VOTING FOR SLAXX AT THIS POINT???????? I agree the pairing scum hunting is crap, but I've seen him do it as town so...

Serious Question

- Do you all believe that Slaxx as scum is stupid enough to admit to needing to re-read the thread upon replacing in? Seems like an insanely stupid thing for scum to do because they would be expecting for people to go "AHA CAUGHT SCUM!!!!!!!" I can see it much more coming from town than I can from scum unless it's newbscum, which Slaxx doesn't fit.

hehehehe Junpei if you think Slaxx should take a break for Post 551 you should see some of the crap I post...or probably not.

DLG is being replaced.

Although I highly doubt a replacement would come in and hammer, why risk it? I've seen a replacement come in and hammer confirmed scum in 3 way lylo because he misread flips (yes, it was an open setup), so there's literally no reason to risk any lulz. Once the rep gets here and talks then yeah I'll be ready for a vote most likely, unless he is scum and does something that reveals himself.

^^^Townposting.

Go do your reread Tammy. Implying a scumread on me without reason whilst appealing to emotion isn't getting you anywhere with me. You were much more careful in GvE LvC if I recall.

heheheheheheheheheheheheheh...when did you think I structured my posting to appeal to you?

No but we think alike a lot so if you're easy to birdie you're easy to me, as a general rule

If this is true, you should have an accurate read on me now. Talk to me Slaxx.

Really feel like scum will be found in Junpei, KK, Farside. I'll read through some of this again tomorrow.

[Tammy]

I really don't understand most of the post from Tammy, how do you go from seeing one post that Slaxx post and declare him town? Really one post = town?
Is that normal for you?

Don't know that there's a whole lot in mafia that could be "normal" for me as everything is game and mood dependent and not much is the same from game to game.

One post does sometimes do it for me, not always, but it happens. I've been known to be convinced someone was scum for weeks only to change my mind based on one post :shrug:

His post spoke to a town mindset. There were a myriad of things he could have said upon me replacing in and as scum I think it would be something a whole lot different than he's heard I'm an easy read. There was some suspicion on my slot; if he were scum he could have fed that suspicion and he could have done it in a way that was totally accurate and I wouldn't be able to refute or be suspicious of him for. Saying that he's heard I'm an easy read suggests that he's actually interested in reading my slot not that he's already determined or knows the alignment of my slot.

[Tammy]

Are you referring to him kissing my ass or me kissing his? I don't see it in either situation, but way less so in his case if that's what you're insinuating.

When I replaced in he claimed that my predecessor had soft claimed a protective role. That shows suspicion on my slot in an attempt to get me to lie if I were scum trying to save myself.

He didn't change his read either. He said he heard I'm easy to read. He then said if he's lynched to read me and go from there on PoE. Besides, saying I'm an easy read could also be a bit of a reaction test. If I think he knows how to read me, and if I'm scum, I might get thrown off balance. He hasn't given his read of me yet. When he does, I'll be able to go from there. I'm actually quite interested in what he comes back with, especially considering that I know who told him I'm easy to read.

But still, both of these suggest a town mindset, not scum.

Hmm...I change reads on replacements all the time. Not every time, but enough. In fact, I drove Junpei crazy in the last game we played together because I had written up a case and was pushing a wagon on someone and then withdrew my vote when someone replaced in. I refused to lynch that person that day and Junpei kept getting after me for being too ethical. Next day I was arguing for his innocence, and it turned out he was innocent.

I don't know why changing reads on someone even that much is suspicious. I change reads all the time. In fact, his changing reads on my slot throughout the game makes my town read on him stronger, especially if there's a lack of reason. Wouldn't he, as scum, at least try to give a reason for his change of reads so that he wouldn't look suspicious. It's not hard to give fake reasons for read changes or reads, and scum tend to at least do that to avoid notice.

I forgot about Psyche and need to relook at him though. I don't like what looks like active lurking.

[Tammy]

Tammy:

These were the inconsistent reads - he had a set of reads which I said at the time were inconsistent with each other. That is to say, that I felt he had reads at the same time which were contradictory.

Who the heck meta's someones' alignment based off one alignment? Before you reference my "meta" of you, the difference is that you posted a theory stance in that game which initially appeared to disagree with your stance here.

This is where you appealed to emotion:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4155660

I claimed dayvig immediately because in such a small setup with few scum, you might claim PR to save yourself. There was zero harm in doing it. It's certainly not suspicious to reaction test someone, but go ahead with your insane confirmation bias crusade.

1. Not seeing the inconsistency or the contradictions you're talking about. Walk me through it.

2. I cleared up the meta contradiction, did I not? If not, don't compare apples and oranges.

3. As far as the appeal to buzzword. Okay, so? I don't know why you're pointing that out. You're taking a common stance I take and saying I'm appealing to something. It doesn't have anything to do with anything. Especially after you make note of remembering that I have a tendency to write irritating emotional posts. :shrug: Why bother pointing something like that out? Scum do it far more often than innocent people do it.

4. Oh hahaha...I'm in an insane confirmation bias crusade? Really Junpei. I haven't even been here for 24 hours yet, don't know that it's a crusade. I have a scum read on you. Also, what was suspicious was not the stupid reaction test, but your behavior afterwards. You don't seem like someone who is trying to determine the alignment of other people, but like someone who is trying to make others look suspicious so you can mislynch them. Your demeanor throughout the entire game has been that way.

[Tammy]

Bullet points on Slaxx (which is really just a recap of the past 5 pages, you lazy bastards)

1. Re-reading the game after receiving his role.
   
   1. Pre-role, he was reading the game closely enough to generate scum reads (on DLG, for example)
      
   2. Post-re-read, the scum read on DLG vanished until it 'accidentally' got re-added.
   
   
2. Slaxx explains that reading and playing are different experiences, since he now has impact, is responsible for opinions, and must communicate.
   
   1. None of those reasons explains why he seemingly generated new reads and tried to throw out old reads
   
   
3. Mass claim brouhaha
   
   1. First against the idea with the reasoning that we should lynch the scum RB first
      
   2. Then changed his mind and was gung-ho on the idea.
      
   3. His tracker talk comes off as scum worried about the existence of a tracker.
   
   
4. Slaxx's response was to bring up an irrelevant game where he had unneccessarily claimed and referrenced a possible conversation where he had a meta of thinking that post-scum RB flip is the best time to massclaim.
   
   1. Slaxx definitely tried to move away from this argument/position.
      
   2. Later response was to argue that Deltabacon was reluctant to claim and therefore PR.
      
   3. This is obviously a post-justification.
   
   
5. Lack of voting record
   
6. "scum-hunting" is entirely PoE-based with little depth.
   
7. AtEs
   
   1. "Anyway since i apparently have to account for every day I'm gone"
      
   2. "nothing but tunnel me today"

Note: I really want Deltabacon and Psyche to speak up more. They are confirmed and pretty town (respectively) so they should be leading town and both of them are too quiet. Slaxx is refusing to vote now, yet will definitely hammer if someone else votes me. So consider me at L-1. Given that, I think both Deltabacon and Junpei are voting for me for a flimsy lazy reasoning given the bulk of my posts.

1. Unless you can prove he was taking notes when he was reading along and had to go back and change his opinions, I dont' know why this is an issue.

2. Are you saying they aren't different experiences? Is his thinking they are alignment indicative? Really?

3. I re-read through Slaxx to see what you're talking about. I don't see your point. Couldn't it also just as easily be read as someone who doesn't want the tracker blocked? Slaxx and I just finished a game in which the tracker claimed day two and was neutralized (by me!) for the rest of the game. Also, wouldn't scum be a little bit more careful with how they approached the mass claim thing?

4. Meh. Feels thin.

5. Okay. Still not completely alignment indicative. I've gone entire days without voting before until I hammered someone. Oh wait, I did that for almost an entire game once as an innocent.

6. Pot-Kettle. Except you're not doing PoE. But, you've got your toes in the shallow end.

7. Personality thing. Not alignment indicative. In fact, I tend to see this as more town anyway. Emotions are town.

[Tammy]

1.

lolgic

DLG: How is this slot I quoted null-town when Deltabacon is scum for avoiding game content by posting but not posting anything which could be read as any alignment? That's exactly what Ellibereth did here.

2. I completely don't understand what you're saying, are you agreeing with me?

3. Honestly when I reread that post I don't see the AtE I saw last night. But when I said emotional posts I meant something else that I don't feel like bringing up right now.

4. Tammy - everything you have posted in regards to my suspicion has read post-decision. You read through the game and found reasons to call me scum, even when you hadn't explained why you felt I was scum in the first place. I say this because the posts you pointed out calling me scum not only are few in number, but also are erroneous. It looked like you aren't reading my posts carefully, rather reading them from a mindset that is 100% expecting me to say something suspicious.

I'd like evidence that suggests I am more interested in making people look suspicious so I can mislynch them if you got it, seeing as every other point you've made has been exhausted.

pedit: Really rainbowdash (can I just call you Llama?)... Okay well for the third time here's my Kublai Khan case from the start of the day: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4149590

1.

That's

your grand contradiction? Oh Junpei.

2. That I seemed to make a different stance? Telling someone not to claim as vanilla for no reason and unprompted on day one of a 26 player game because it's stupid is different than claiming vanilla upon replacing in when there are 7 players and having been asked to claim. The fact that you went to that game, found that quote, and tried to compare the two is part of where your behavior is suspicious. You tried to find a contradiction to make me look bad when the situations couldn't be more different.

3. It's okay. I'm part emotional player...it results in emotional posts from time to time.

4. Junpei - When you read someone everything you read is made post-decision. I don't get your point. Yes, I was leaning scum on you from your behavior upon replacing in and none of your behavior changed that read as I read the game. Don't tell me how I operate. This is making you look even scummier Junpei. I didn't read through the game with some preconceived notion that you were scum and therefore looked for reasons to validate what I thought. That's a ridiculous notion, and fits with scummy behavior. In fact, you have experience with me Junpei; you know that I'm not fixed in my reads. You've seen me change my mind enough to know that I don't hunt for reasons to find people scum without reason.

In fact, if you were paying attention, I called Slaxx town last night upon replacing in from something he said. Then in my reads I twice said that I didn't know what to make of his alignment because I have trouble reading him. That should tell you that I didn't start reading with biases in place.

Why did you get so worried that in my first post upon replacing in I called you scum? There was absolutely no way I could have a scum read on you, so for you to get all upset about it and want an answer makes you look really suspicious. Even if you don't get sarcasm, you get logic right? Because logically there's no way I could have any type of read on you at that point.

[Tammy]

Rainbowdash: Slaxx is a town read right now - but there are aspects of his play that are suspicious.

Tammy: First things first: I don't know your playstyle that well. If you want to keep playing this game then recall GvE CvL and how I replaced in and how I lurked for quite a bit and slowly found my ground and reads. I didn't interact with a lot of the game till later.

I don't get your point. I remember your entrance; we were nearing deadline. I had just gotten into an argument with someone and jumped off of the wagon I had been pushing for two weeks because I decided at the last minute he was probably innocent. You read through my ISO and determined I was likely town (and not a VI!) and tried to convince me to get off of my wagon of one and onto another wagon. It was all very natural as was the way you interacted with people. Now, I'm not a big meta person, but I'm not getting the same feeling of naturalness here. I, like you with me, don't know your playstyle that well. In fact, I wouldn't from just one game anyway and wouldn't think I would. My playstyle changes so often that I don't expect people to act the same way either. But, there is a general voice or underlying behavior that has some consistency.

1. It's page THREE!

Good then we agree it's not that important.

4. I maintain that your posts look like stretching to call me scum, and there's no reason to argue that point with you obviously. List reasons I'm a scumread before this conversation that you still think are fully valid.

Obviously you can't have confirmation bias on every single read. I didn't expect you to be joking around... I still don't like the sarcasm and joking culture that is growing in mafia games. I thought you were serious. I then logically came to the conclusion that there should be no reason why you have that read - but I initially thought you to be the type of player I really respect (logical, serious, thorough) so I thought that you would have a response.

I will, in a bit. I have some work to do.

There is no reason why people can't have fun with mafia. And I am logical, serious, and thorough most of the time (when I'm not being emotional and irrational), but I'm also extremely light-hearted and like to have fun. Also, I don't know that you can fault me for what I said, when you pulled a fake dayvig gambit. Perhaps, I was reaction-testing you by asking if you were scum in my first post. (I wasn't, but still.)

[Tammy]

@Tammy: In regards to post 654; saying someone is easy to read = town mind set? I'm just more confused.
I'm going to disagree with most of your post here. You think people can't fake a read? You just going to ignore everything in this game and base it on how a person thinks now is just plain dumb.

Context is everything, and I know the context from where he's coming. He said "A little birdie told me Tammy is easy to read." Yeah, I see that as a town mindset. I know it comes from Team Mafia and I know that it comes from someone on his team. If I'm right about the person who it is, it's someone who can read me really really well. I replaced into a scum slot in that game. If he was scum, why go for the "I heard she was an easy read" why not mention me being scum in the game we previously played together? Especially since it's under similar circumstances - me replacing into a game that has some suspicion already. It just seems like it would be the more natural reaction for scum to say something other than "I hear she's an easy read" in this situation, and I wouldn't even be able to fault him for it.

Of course people can fake a read. I'm pretty sure that I said faking a read is extremely easy to do. I also said I'm interested in what he comes back with. How he reads me should give me better insight into his thought process and allow me to evaluate him better. I'm not just going to accept a read at face value.

In regards to replacement reads changing, I think my best example of what I mean about your views not changing when you have a scum read on someone when another replaces in the same slot was how I was in here where I welcomed the person saying hi I believe your scum, welcome.
I was being cute, but damn serious.
This game Slaxx has been ever changing reads with no reason's behind him. I see a lot of following from him and no aggressive scum hunting what-so-ever.

Okay I see what you're saying. (Hey! You were playing with Gertrude in that game. We play together at another site) Still, he basically voiced his suspicions of me when he said that my predecessor had soft claimed a protective role. And I still think his "Tammy's an easy read" thing demonstrated suspicion of me.

When I re-read him, I'll pay attention the scum hunting aspect. I still don't see a big deal about changing reads. Once someone tunneled on me for an entire day, tried unsuccessfully to get me lynched, and the next day called me his strongest town read for no reason whatsoever. It happens.

Wouldn't he, as scum, at least try to give a reason for his change of reads so that he wouldn't look suspicious

Wouldn't he as town have reason for why he changed his views? Really. It's easy to follow along and give agreements and credence when you see people already suspicious of a player.
Are you saying you never never did that as scum?


Oh look who is not here during this exchange of talks in the game.....Slaxx/Psyche.

*Note for later* look to see if this was a trend all game long.

I don't know. I sometimes don't have reasons for why I have reads or change my reads. Sometimes I just read something genuine in a post and I have a read. I don't even know how to pinpoint it sometimes. And yeah, I've had people give me crap for it. But because it's something that I personally do, I can't fault someone else for it.

Hmm...I've actually only played scum 3 times, so it's kind of hard to say what I've never done as scum. But, actually as a general tendency, no. Though I have exploited general opinion, I'm more inclined to go against general opinion when scum not with (though I do this as town too).

Psyche being absent is troubling, and I'd like to know why so many people have such strong townreads of him.

[Tammy]

Maybe it's just a playstyle thing, so I'm going to be a dick and

demand

that she just make a concise bulleted point post of reads.

Oops. I don't follow demands. I was actually going to do this later after I iso'd, but meh, my stubborn button has been triggered. I'll get to it eventually.

[Tammy]

Good then we agree it's not that important.

What? You're changing the subject. The point was that you called me scummy for saying that it was scummy to have inconsistent reads. Don't dance around the topic - you were wrong on your suspicion of me. And knowing you I'm going to have to say the same thing once you make your "case".

You need to hurry up and vote Kublai Khan. Your townread on Iknal makes no sense and neither is your nullread on Kublai Khan.

I'm not changing the subject. It is a really shallow and scummy thing to suspect someone for. I told you I didn't see the inconsistencies, you pointed them out, I said they weren't as strong as you thought they were, you said it was page 3. Were you not admitting that it was too early in the game to have these strong feelings that you suggested? If you were, then I'm agreeing that the inconsistencies you noted were not important. If you're still sticking to that, then no we don't agree because I don't see the strong inconsistencies that caused you to suspect my predecessor right? I honestly don't even know who the suspicion was directed at by this point.

LOL! Junpei how can you say in one post that you don't know my play style enough to determine some things and then in the next say "knowing you" blah blah blah. What do you mean, you're going to have to say the same thing again? I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to imply and why you're preemptively discrediting me.

I'm not dancing around anything, and of course you're going to tell me I'm wrong in my suspicion of you. Do you think I'm expecting you to agree with me?

And, I don't need to hurry up and vote anyone. I haven't iso'd KK yet and barely had any interaction. Deadline's not for over a week so there's no rush, and I'm not going to vote for someone that I'm not sure of.

Why you pushing?

[Tammy]

Too bad. Because right now I feel that you're the one just running around hitting buttons. You're trying to up turn the table because you didn't like the way it was set when you walked in. Why? Did you get the impression that scum had the upperhand?

It's possible you have a point. So I'll retract my demand and just ask nicely. Could you please make a single focused bulleted post?

If by making noise and pushing buttons, you mean interacting with as many people as possible, then yes that is absolutely what I'm doing. I tend to be very active and interacting with people is how I get my reads.

Someone I have a working town read on is set to be lynched, of course I'm going to try to figure out why and try to turn the table if it's scum pushing it or determine if my read is wrong. And it's my duty to try to change the course if scum have the upperhand. I'm not sure of your point there.

Yes, I will. I have some iso's to do and will try to finish them up tonight, but it might be tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Oh *pout*

If you think I'm arrogant, then you obviously don't know me. If the redacted was bitch...then okay that's fine...but the arrogant part is wrong.

Yes, I absolutely attacked the validity of your attack because I don't agree with it. It's what you do when you don't agree with something. Junpei you should know since you've already done THE SAME EXACT THING TO ME

[Tammy]

Damn I don't know how that happened.

When you said I was stretching in order to call you scum, you attacked the validity of my attack on you. Plain and simple. You can't now turn around and go "oh wa wa you're attacking my attack" I don't believe inconsistencies are scum tells...plain and simple, so of course I'm going to disagree with you.

I didn't throw any dirt on you, but I do think that it's very interesting that you keep using these terms in our conversation. It's something I see scum do all the time. You can't just have a conversation with me without going buzzword...buzzword...buzzword?

I'm not nervous at all, but I think it's really cute that you're trying to paint me that way. Come on Junpei, you know me...do I seem the type to get afraid? Also noted that your post was full of insults. I've attacked your play, you've resorted to attacking me as a person. I don't care if you don't like my tone. I'm sure it is annoying to you that someone has a scum read on you. :shrug: You can paint me as immature or a bitch or arrogant or whatever you want...that definitely isn't going to change my view of you.

[Tammy]

Yes that's fine if you want to attack the validity of my attack - but you 1) tried to spin it as a scumtell on me (you're not so bad that you think that it isn't common to think that contradictory reads are scummy are you?) 2) Acted as if it were some massive point on my part when in reality it was a page 4 tell which I still credit but I haven't been parading it around.

How about you hurry up and catch up and post your reads. And hey, where's the case on me? Does that still even exist?

I'd like evidence that suggests I am more interested in making people look suspicious so I can mislynch them if you got it, seeing as every other point you've made has been exhausted.

Also it's cool that you ignored this, proving that you were just using bullshit buzzphrases.

Wow. Junpei. Wow.

What are you getting all upset for? Also, noted another insult. "You're not so bad at mafia that you don't know that this is a common belief?" One. I might not be awesome at mafia, but I do pretty well. Two. I don't just follow the herd. I don't care what "common belief" is, I use my own brain and think for myself.

It was part of my assertion that you're scumhunting in this game has been mechanical and shallow. It's a verifiable method of scumhunting which is objectively correct but doesn't cost you anything. It's a type of scumhunting that I see scum use all the time. Town use it too, but a whole hell of a lot of scum use it as well. It's shallow.

But, seriously, Junpei, as far as I can tell, I am THE ONLY PERSON who thinks you are scum. Why are you getting so bent out of shape about it? It's like the way you jumped to my question last night if you were scum before I could logically have any read on you. You have now gone out of your way to call me arrogant, [redacted], and immature I suppose. There is absolutely no town motivation for your reaction to me in this game. I mean geeze, I don't even get this bent out of shape when only one person has a scum read on me. And, you supposedly are the logical one here, which makes your reaction to me very odd.

How about you understand I've been here for about 24 hours and need to finish isoing some people and I'M WORKING.

[Tammy]

pedit: 1) It's fine you disagree with me - but town can disagree and calling me scum for disagreeing with you on a theory level is pathetic

2) There's a difference between using a buzzword for the effect and using one to convey a point which you are adequately explaining. Kinda like how you ignored that thing I quoted in 676 when you used a buzzphrase.

3) I have no issues with people who have scumreads on me - and once again I don't know you, stop acting like people who play games with you remember you much at all. You're annoying me on a personal level with your attitude and tone. That's why you get insults.

I didn't say I had a scum read on you because we disagreed. Where in the hell would you get that idea?

I don't even know what buzzphrase you're referring to.

Okay now you're going to have to explain yourself. You say you don't remember much about me at all? If that were true, why did you IMMEDIATELY know last night that I had a different stance on claiming when vanilla? Why did you tell me that you had an impression of me as a player that was logical, serious, and thorough? Sounds like you remembered at least a little bit about me. Don't now act like you don't remember anything about my play to know that I don't get scared.

Ha! I'm annoying you with my attitude and tone. Kay. That's really funny coming from you. But, you should probably note that insulting me because I'm annoying you is funny when you say that the atmosphere in here was oh so much more mature before. It kind of goes against your whole "Logic, calm, smarter than everyone" image you try to project.

[Tammy]

Why yes, Mr. Junpei, I do assert that your methods of scumhunting are lacking any type of town mindset and are therefore indicative of scum pretending to hunt rather than town trying to find mafia.

I assure you that I do humbly regret that you find my tone and attitude in this game to be distasteful. I find your facts about my posting history interesting. Certainly, I have posted more than normal levels in the past 25 hours, but it does take some posts to interact with people and as I have time today, well that’s going to happen. If you think I’m going to have this many posts every day, well you can rest your little head that I won’t.

It is of interest to note that those snide comments as you demonstrate came after a post made by you in which you alluded to me making an appeal to emotion and a faulty implication. If you don’t like snide comments, one would think that you wouldn’t take such a haughty tone when addressing others. I suppose maybe you don’t realize that you constantly take a condescending tone with whomever you are speaking, but alas this is the truth.

I deeply regret that you hate that I won’t stop talking, but you might note that I am speaking in response to being spoken to just like an honorable young woman does, with the exception of my spamming of the night before. I am likewise filled with sorrow that you believe I am not being serious in my thoughts or communications. I’m quite certain that, with the exception of my catch up posts, my thoughts have not been too stream of conscious and have contained my rather serious opinions on this game. I do utterly believe that it is suspicious that you keep dismissing my thoughts and opinions.

I also apologize that I haven’t backed up my buzzphrase use, but honestly am at a loss about what you are speaking. If you could fill me in on the buzzphrase in question, I would be happy to either back it up or accept my mistake in using something I am clearly too mentally deficient to use properly.

I can assure you that I won’t get over my belief in how scum hunt. I did assert that I am aware that town hunt this way too at times, but you might also want to care at least a little bit. If, after I iso you, I still believe that you are scum as I read last night, I will present a case and push for your lynch. It’s the rarest of occasions that I am unable to get someone lynched when I truly believe in their lack of innocence. But, like I said, I haven’t iso’d you yet and since I am a seven year old with a raging case of ADHD, I am liable to change my opinions on people at a moment’s notice. However, the way you’ve devolved into attacking my person for next to no reason at all doesn’t give me hope that my opinion of your alignment is going to change.

I again humbly apologize for misrepresenting your mental faculties. You see, I have this problem wherein I believe that other people have memories that work as well as mine, and since I remember your play quite well considering the game we played in together wasn’t too long ago, I apparently mistook your ability to remember. This was especially so considering how quickly you realized my vanilla stance was incompatible with previous stances. I, however, am completely swayed by your assertion that your memory is, in fact, deficient because you claim to remember me as a calm person. Anyone who has played a mafia game with me would be woeful at making such a claim with a straight face. However, I am filled with intrigue over your assertion that you barely remember my play, yet you stated that you remembered emotion that was irritating. Junpei, this appears to be a contradiction in your memories or at least your claims of memories. Either you remember me as calm or you remember me as emotional, or you barely remember me at all. According to you contradictions are scum tells, so will you just go ahead and agree with me now that you are scum?

I am uncertain what your point is about your favorite author. No, I was unaware that your favorite author is someone I have never heard of. It hardly matters to the situation, but as long as we are sharing, my favorite author is Homer and my favorite book is the Iliad.

I am overjoyed that you are going to resist stooping to my level. I look forward to the day when I can stop personally insulting you for no reason as well. I deeply regret you felt anger when I felt that emotion not at all.

In all seriousness,
~Tammy

[Tammy]

Junpei - Here's the thing. You remember me as calm and you remember me as emotional. Those are seeming contradictions, no? But, they're not; they are me...you are remembering correctly. They are contradictions and they are correct, so not all contradictions are indicative of scum because they can be contained in one alignment/person. (Btw...I wasn't emotional when you asked me to get some sleep before answering a question. I literally hadn't slept for weeks and my coherence was near gone. You told me I wasn't making sense, I agreed it was possible because I was so tired, you agreed to wait for me to answer your question until I could get some sleep and make sense.)

Okay fine, you remember sweeping personalities. I don't get worried easily. I get emotional easily but not worried or nervous.

I'm not trying to flex win ratios...you said you weren't worried and no one would buy my crap. I'm just pointing out that it's flawed.

-------

Still interested in Slaxx's read on me. Whether it's town or scum...looking forward to the reasons. Yes, I know that I said earlier that not having reasons means town, but this is important to me and how I'll be able to read Slaxx.

Psyche - Like his early aggressiveness. He disappears though in day two. I don't know what to make of that. Gonna put him as a light town though for now though. I want to read back through his iso though, there's something nagging me that I can't quite put my finger on. It could be that it looks like he's active lurking though.

Rainbowdash - Town, right? Do I need to really ISO? If he's the cop though, why didn't he die last night?

Slaxx - I didn't even have to get through half his iso to confirm my town read on him. Like I really don't see the points against him at all. Slaxx, though, I really really need for you to tell me when and how you changed your read on Junpei. He's your strongest town read now, but he wasn't on day one. I remember from the game we played together that you said you were susceptible to buddying by scum. I'll have to read to see if Junpei employed that method - though I'm guessing not since Farside has accused you of buddying Junpei - but still. I'd like to know that read. The only thing that causes me some concern is that there was no vote at the end of yesterday. And the only reason why it causes me concern is because typically scum partners try not to be on the same lynches, and he's the only person not on the day one lynch. But, it's not that big of a deal as that isnt' an exact sicence anyway. Slaxx town hunts and scum hunts through PoE. I hate that type of scumhunting, but it's how some people do it and I'm not going to criticize over much, especially considering that Junpei is making light of how I scum hunt. But, because he scumhunts this way I don't follow the criticism against him. Like seriously, if he turns out not being town I'll be pretty surprised. Although, his read on me should really help me determine his alignment so...

All right that's it for tonight. I'm tired. I'll try to finish the rest of the iso's and reads tomorrow but Sundays are busy for me so it might not be until Monday.

[Tammy]

This is just a real quick serious question to everyone. How certain are you that RD is really the cop? Something feels very very off to me. I realize that I suck at balance, but this doesn't feel right. Delta claimed at L-1. I thought that it was just a mass claim thing, but no he claimed when he was about to get lynched. Not very credible as he could have just been claiming cop to get out of a lynch or to draw out the real cop.

Why are we accepting RD as confirmed town basically? Why didn't he die last night if he's the town cop? Aren't town cops like the first to go? The scum would have to be some serious newbs not to kill the outed cop, right?

I skimmed real quick and think I have some questions to answer but I'm really busy right now, so I'll get back to this tomorrow night after work.

[Tammy]

I mean the way he just put Slaxx at L-1 is really suspicious to me.

[Tammy]

Okay, getting back into things. Let's start with this.

Vote: Tammy

Where's that bulleted post of reads I asked for?

Are you voting me because you think I'm scum or because I didn't give a list of reads or because you didn't notice that in Post 688 I started my reads list and said I needed to finish the rest? I was hoping to do it yesterday but ran out of time. I hope to finish it tonight, but it might be tomorrow.

[Tammy]

I still have a light town read on Iknal, probably mostly for his vote on Deltabacon and calling him out for various things. Sure, he ends up voting Fatcat but he has reasoning. KK enters pretty strongly but I still don't like that he writes up a case for Slaxx being scum and votes Fatcat. Why didn't he vote Slaxx? Oh okay he explains it. I don't like the answer, but well. KK comes across so reasonable, which is dangerous and troublesome. Oh, I don't like how much he criticizes Slaxx for his scumhunting methods. I don't agree with it either, but I've seen him do it as town and using it as part of why he's scum is a really shallow method of scumhunting as well. Oh but I do like his minirant about finding scum independently. I hate it when people search for the scum team before a flip, but some people do it and it works for them. Meh...different playstyles. I don't like how much he goes after Slaxx because I have a town read on him, but I can't get to scum on KK right now. He really looks lik ehe believes it. Going town for now.

Why do you have a strong town read on Psyche?

All right, can barely keep my eyes open. I'll finish the other two tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Was thinking about the read I gave KK last night and there are some things that bother me and I'm going to put him back to null until I can read again and think. The thing is that his scumhunting of Slaxx is near lazer focus and it is very shallow which is pretty funny that he tells Slaxx that his scumhunting methods are shallow. He could, regardless of alignment, genuinely feel that scumhunting through PoE is scummy, which would make his argument to Slaxx about it very genuine. That sense that he really believes what he's saying is where I wanted to put him town, but a general belief is a general belief regardless, so...

Also, want to re-read Psyche. Something about those last couple of posts of his has really rubbed me the wrong way.

I'll get my other two reads and answer questions later today or tonight.

[Tammy]

Farside - No. But then again I can't understand Junpei's points for calling me town either. (The sometimes English instructor in me wants to take a red pen to a good number of his posts.) Clarity is key!!!

Also, how can he call Iknal a lurker? Sure, he only made 5 posts but they were between Friday and Sunday. I'm not really sure that that is what you can call lurking. Wasn't he complaining about my spam because the thread was oh so much calmer and more mature before I started going on an adhd talking spree? Why then also complain that someone provided what I think is decent content over a period of three days (of which he posted only on two of them) Some games I only post once or twice in that amount of time depending on what's going on in game and what I'm responding to.

[Tammy]

All right...I like Farside. I feel like that's clouding my judgment. I still don't like the self-vote and think it's scummy but her overall play feels very genuine. But, I'm now getting stuck with too many town reads. Something's wrong. In iso she looks really good, but I thought she looked bad from my read the other night.

Okay need to re-read the thread as a whole. I've gone awry. Junpei's still a scum read, but I haven't finished my re-read of him either. I swear, pinky/hoof swear, this weekend. I have more time on the weekends for this kind of thing.

[Tammy]

I don't remember when I read the scum QT. I know that I read the entire first day of the game before I read my role pm. Om had sent me an email late at night asking if I would replace in and I said I would. I started reading some of it before hascow had sent me my role pm, and forgot to even check it until I got to day two and had been taking notes for who I thought scum were. (Had a scum read on Delta and Jason!) Thought my predecessor looked pretty scummy too. I think that's what reminded me to look at my role pm.

I *think* I posted first. But, I didn't even get my team QT until much later that evening, so I could be getting them mixed up. I didn't even really read the scumQT the first day. I skimmed it at some point and saw that the whole team talked about bussing each other. I feel like I posted first because if I would have known the plan was to group bus, I might not have given Jason a town read. But I remember talking to Oversoul in the team QT and he told me about the bussing plan and where I went wrong, and I said I knew and told him that sometimes the best distancing is no distancing and I decided to give one partner a town read and one a scum read. I did go back and read it when Deltawave was saying that he thought I read information in my scumQT wrong, and I thought that maybe he was giving me a hint that I wasn't going according to the plan, so yeah, this is probably a lot more words than you need for me to say I don't really remember.

The only thing I know for sure is that I read the thread first. I believe I posted first, but I can't be too sure about that.

Why?

[Tammy]

Hmm...I don't know what I'd do actually. It all depends; I can be a little unpredictable at how I approach replacing in. When I replaced into the Kirby game as scum, I know I read the scumQT first because I introduced myself and talked about the reads I planned to give. I don't know what I would have done if I were scum in this situation though.

[Tammy]

Quick questions: Is DLG, DGB? If not, why does Junpei want someone to refer to DLG as DGB.

Also, why does he keep referring to deltabacon as deltawave? Are they the same person too?

[Tammy]

DLG: Inconsistent reads are indicative of a faulty line of thought. Somewhere, you consciously wrote something which was contradictory and did not correct it. Mafia would do this because their reasons aren't through investigation of the situation (which would cause context making the error clear) but rather trying to find someone to suspect (thus attacking people for inconsistent reasons).

I feel like I already strongly disagreed with you here, but I think it bears repeating. People sometimes have inconsistent reads because people have different mindsets when they read games and don't pay attention all that well so their reads are likely to fluctuate.

Mafia is less likely to do this because they're more likely to be careful about the reads they give in the first place, they more likely to be a little too consistent because it's harder for them to change, so they'll be less contradictory. When you catch mafia in contradictions it's rather blatent than something that is a natural change of thought process.

I saw you criticize Farside for a similar thing, namely her forgetting or not paying close attention to the thread. These are actually town tells, albeit minor in some instances, because town are less likely to pay close attention than mafia are. And I'm really confused as to why you point it out as part of your case against Farside.

[Tammy]

Wasn't Slaxx supposed to give his thoughts yesterday?

His reasoning for thinking I'm town on one point was sufficient, but still waiting on that read on me...

[Tammy]

Slaxx: I don't explain town reads without a good enough reason. Though I'd list Psyche as my best town read, but I don't have a strong one. I always investigate everyone, and believe in scum reads, no town reads. Town tells can be faked,

scum tells are committed.

I have seen good things which you might call a town tell from a few people in this game, but I don't work that way.

rofl...lolgigglefits...lmao

[Tammy]

So first off - make sure no one CCs the Cop claim. No one claims till everyone checks in.

After that, if there are no CCs, DLG claims next. He's going to be at theoretical L-1 if there are no CCs anyway.

I still think that mass claim is a bad idea - especially if Deltabacon turns out to be town, there are so many possibilities of what else will be claimed that could fuck our cop. I'm not going to fight it though because I get the reason why it could be very beneficial and we might have already had a claim from our most important PR anyway.

[Tammy]

Meh. Junpei still reads as scum to me. His iso just doesn't read natural at all. I'm getting the feeling of too much this statement is this, that statement is that and it all feels rather stilted and shallow in the way he attempts to find scum.

Very very interesting that he says that buzzwords are things that scum use rather often...

FAULTS FARSIDE IN Post 337 FOR NOT READING THE GAME...apparently completely oblivious to the fact that town far more often than scum don't read the game carefully. ALTHOUGH I SAY HERE HE'S OBLIVIOUS I DON'T BELIEVE HE ACTUALLY IS. I THINK HE'S TRYING TO PAD HIS CASE TO MAKE SOMEONE ELSE SEEM SCUMMY. (I forget reading things in posts all. the. time. so your continued efforts to paint someone else scummy for it look atrocious. If you actually think that people forgetting things is a sign of scum, you should resign now. Just saying.)

-2 for mentioning "scum slips" Ugh.

Why are you guys letting Junpei act like he's the leader of this game? Blech. Is this why he was acting like an old man who was waving at me to get off his lawn?

Post 484 W.T.F.??? Is he being serious?

Almost half through his iso...like seriously can we lynch Junpei already?

Ugh Post 577 is fucking awful. I thought he had a decent town read on Slaxx before this, but he could be willing to compromise based on blah blah blah. *disgusted* You know it's fine if you change your read on someone but you look so slimy right here...just willing to move whichever way the wind blows...no convictions at all. Oh and the fake day vig...which I'm going to have to nod my head in the direction of Rainbowdash that this does sort of fit town meta I suppose, meh. It's still stupid and should stop.

Seriously, if anyone wants to see a serious disconnect look at the way Junpei reacts to me upon arrival. Demands that I claim, I claim, he asks why I claimed, tells me that my saying I don't care about claiming vanilla is awful, within four minutes finds a post I made in which I told someone in another game claiming vanilla was stupid, interprets it badly, appeals to buzzword which he's already claimed are used by scum, claims I was a much more careful player in GvE, wants to know why I attacked him by asking him if he was scum upon replacing in, remembers that I post long, detailed posts, then claims he barely remembers me at all. Um contradiction.

Seriously, everything about his reaction to me upon replacing in feels like scum caught for the wrong reasons. In my first post, which came after his stupid fake day vig post, Post 579 I make a joke about not wanting to read 24 pages to find out that Slaxx is scum and I ASK Junpei if he's scum. I don't attack him; I don't say he's scum. I simply say "are you scum?" Not long later, he asks why I attacked him. That post in question is the first post that I made; I made it clear that I hadn't posted anything. The natural reaction might be to answer the question or ignore it as it's obvious that I couldn't possibly think anyone was scum at that point. I literally called Slaxx scum in that post and he didn't react at all, but Junpei got all "Why are you attacking me?"

Not only does this response not make sense from a typical town perspective but it also doesn't make sense from the perspective of someone who had just attempted to gain a response from a stupid fake day vig. It does make sense, however, from scum who are overly concerned about what people think about them.

Anyway there just isn't much that feels natural or genuine in Junpei's iso. He's brought up GvE and he was much more natural there. There was a whole lot that felt really genuine from him, like he was trying to figure things out. I remember near then end when people thought he might be scum. I got a little paranoid but still didn't want to believe it because of how genuine he felt throughout the game. I don't get any sense of genuineness here.

[Tammy]

V/LA

until Wednesday. I have family visiting from out of town. I might be able to post, but I can't promise anything. (I'm going to work on my reads tomorrow for this game tomorrow though...activity will be spotty after that)

Deadline here is Wednesay right? I'll make sure to make this game a priority for what free time I have.

[Tammy]

Wow. KK is wow.

Interesting. Nope! When I said that KK was a shallow scum hunter, I certainly didn't know what I was talking about.

Junpei's read came from his behavior after the gambit, not the gambit itself. None of it makes sense coming from a town perspective. You should probably actually read my read and what I thought.

Didn't realize there was a bodyguard until it was pointed out in Post 701 but okay sure, we'll go with your thing.

I took my sweet time? You might want to check your facts dude. I've been in this game a little over a week. There's no I took my sweet time about anything. The night I replaced in, I spent hours reading the thread and giving my thoughts. In that I said who I thought the scum were: between Junpei/Farside/KK. On Saturday, you ask for a reads list, I say I need to ISO. On Saturday, I complete the first three ISOs and say that I probably won't get to the rest until Monday. Didn't even log onto the site on Monday. You vote me Wednesday morning. Wednesday evening I do one more read, then one Thursday, then one Friday. How is that taking my sweet time and doing it because I got vote prodded. Kay. Pretty sure if I was concerned about your vote prod, I would have run in here and gotten them all done on Wednesday. But, sure misrep away.

Nearly every one is a fence sit? Slaxx - town. RainbowDash - town. Yes, I had to have something explained to me, but whatever. Had Psyche as town, but due to active lurking decided I needed to re-read. Junpei - Scum. KK - null, leaning scum. Farside, null, leaning town. Where am I fence-sitting, and what kind of great revelations do you expect me to have when I've just replaced in and haven't fully interacted with people?

Also, KK - I noticed you ignored my question. Why do you have a strong town read on Psyche. Don't ignore this question again.

Also, dude, do you actually read the thread? Because I've already answered in detail why I gave Slaxx a town read on that when Farside asked me that. But, sure ignore my answer and try to paint me scummy for that.

Also, it's rich that someone who has barely done anything this week with regards to the game wants to paint me as ignoring the game and taking my sweet time to do anything. You say you're busy, well other people are busy too.

Also, what is your read on Junpei and why?

[Tammy]

Wasn't Slaxx supposed to give his thoughts yesterday?

His reasoning for thinking I'm town on one point was sufficient, but still waiting on that read on me...

Also Slaxx, based on your PoE, does Psyche fit with KK or Junpei?

[Tammy]

VOTE: KK

Seriously am not going to address KK's ridiculous points against me. Apparently he's not actually interested in finding out whether or not I'm scum or who the scum is. He's just going to call me names and misrep what I've done. That comes from scum not town.

[Tammy]

Oh I will change to vote for Psyche if I need to as I noticed the same thing Farside did.

[Tammy]

Also, KK...are you telling me that your read on Psyche has not changed in the slightest or you have not doubted it based on current events? If not, why not? Consistency is a scum tell as far as I believe in scum tells, so you look pretty bad right now.

Also, I just finished reading your entire post against me and LOL.

[Tammy]

And no, this is not OMGUS...this is read his points against me and explain to me how they come from town. They don't. He doesn't care who gets lynched. Scum don't care who gets lynched. Town does and if he were town, he'd actually read me and notice why I'm far more likely to be town in this situation than scum, but he's not. He's just blatantly distorting my actions in a way that fit what he's trying to do in this game, which is lynch town.

[Tammy]

I voted you when I got to "You don't read mod posts" nonsense.

I'm not answering your questions anyway. You're being a jerk. I don't respond to jerks.

[Tammy]

Besides, you're scum. I don't need to justify myself to scum. You are mischaracterizing me and I'm not going to explain myself when I've laid my thoughts out pretty clear.

[Tammy]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone fall apart and devolve into a "NO U!" counterargument so quickly. Also, nice AtE with the "I'm a delicate widdle girl being attacked by a mean nasty jerk" play. Do you actually think that will work?

I guess there's nothing left to do but let others weigh in.

More scum misrepping. I never even said that. I said you were the pool of who was likely to be scum when I replaced in. I didn't even say that I'm a delicate girl. You're trying to be even more provoking of me so that you can go "See, scum!"

You are not interested in finding out who the scum are in this game; you are only interested in setting up mislynches. It's why you've twisted everything and misrepresented everything to make it look like it comes from scum.

Also, if Junpei is not your partner you've lined up your next mislynch if you can get mine to go through today.

I will respond to this point: There was no throwing of dirt onto RD by asking that question. It was a legitimiate question. Am I supposed to just take a cop clai mat face value? NO. Then you want to mock me for not reading the mod post because I didn't know about the bodyguard. Awesome. More twisting of everything to make me look like scum instead of trying to find out the truth.

[Tammy]

You are being fooled RD. How does anything KK has done seem likely to come from town? He's not interested in finding mafia. He's interested in mislynching.

If anyone actually believes any of his points against me and that I'm mafia. Well then good game cuz mafia's won.

[Tammy]

Too bad. Because right now I feel that you're the one just running around hitting buttons.

You're trying to up turn the table because you didn't like the way it was set when you walked in. Why? Did you get the impression that scum had the upperhand?

It's possible you have a point. So I'll retract my demand and just ask nicely. Could you please make a single focused bulleted post?

This post here says you know I'm not scum. If I were scum and I thought scum had the upperhand, I wouldn't be trying to upturn the table.

[Tammy]

You are being fooled RD. How does anything KK has done seem likely to come from town? He's not interested in finding mafia. He's interested in mislynching.

My read on KK is mostly from Iknal who I saw as heavy town.

I had a town read on Iknal also, but KK is not. He would be trying to figure out a thought process, not distorting it to make it look like it comes from scum. He's not actually interested in figuring this out.

[Tammy]

Totally not true. I say in Post 645 that I think scum will be found in Junpei/KK/Farside. How is that me waiting to call you scum until you posted a case against me? Misrep more.

You have completely misrepped every point against me because you are trying to set up mislynches. If you were actually trying to determine whether or not I'm scum, you wouldn't be distorting every single thing I've done and blatantly ignoring the posts which answer or negate the points you've made.

I'm not answering your case because it's so full of distortions it's not funny. If I thought for one second you were being genuine in your determination of my alignment, I would be happy to have a conversation with you, but you're not so I'm not going to justify myself to you.

If that gets me mislynched, so be it. Really really don't care. Because if anyone actually reads what you've posted and think it in any way shape or form fits with what I've actually said, I'm just at a loss.

[Tammy]

This isn't the Wizard of Oz, Tammy. You can't just click your heels and repeat "he's misrepping me!" over and over again to make it come true.

I don't have to click my heels three times to make it true. It's a truth. You are deliberately distorting my words and actions and blatantly ignoring the things that answer your questions or should let you know that what you are depicting me as is untrue.

If people want to know the truth, they will read me and they will see that your representation of me is distorted. If they don't, they will mislynch me. If any of the town players here are swayed by what you wrote and ask me for clarification, I will gladly answer them.

[Tammy]

Yes, Junpei. Pretty much all of it. Have you ever heard of the notion that cases do more to help town evaluate the person who makes the case more than on whom the case is being made? KK's crap case pretty much does exactly that and his whole demeanor towards me is indicative of scum distorting every single action and reaction as something indicative of scum rather than town. And the fact that RD has me as the second likeliest person he would vote today and is calling KK town just demonstrates that he's probably going to get it to work. And good game scum. You've snowed town.

I've had crap cases written on me by town before, but you can usually tell when they're genuine. The type of case he's written on me is the type I've only ever seen scum do.

1. Apparently I'm scum for having a town read on Slaxx. I explain why to Farside when she asks me. You know what's interesting? She actually asked me, and engaged with me. Shows me that she's interested in finding the truth. Did KK ask me anything? Nope, he just set about to deliberate distortions. I gave my original answer to Farside in Post 651 and she asked for clarification so I gave it in Post 667.

And yes, I refuted points to his Slaxx case because I don't agree with several of his points. But, rather than have a discussion with me about it he just throws up this crap. I think some of his points were crappy, and I didn't refute every single one of his points. I defend my townreads. I've unfortunately had strong townreads on scum and worked really hard to keep them from getting lynched. I will also point out crappy points being used against someone I'm suspicious of. It's because I'm interested in finding answers not mislynching people. KK is not.

If he was interested in the Slaxx issue, he would discuss it with me. He's not. Why not?

2. He gets all bothered about my scum read on Junpei. Yes, I weighed the fake dayvig gambit in, it's something that is one aspect that troubles me about the scum read. I even mention that it might fit town meta in Post 750 But one gambit isn't going to make me think someone is definitely town when behavior suggests otherwise. And, as I pointed out the behavior with regards to me felt like it came from scum not town.

3. The point about me being scum for questioning RD. Awful. Absolutely awful AND speaks to him buddying confirmed town. Why is it ridiculous for me to question the confirmed town of someone who claimed cop at L-1? I dont' just take claims at face value. So, I'm scum because I didn't know there was a bodyguard until it was mentioned? I'm scum because I didn't know the balance of the game until Slaxx pointed out why it was most likely? How is it scummy to try to figure out if someone everyone is saying is confirmed is actually confirmed. Why is it scummy for me to try to determine if someone fake claimed? And then in his next post he mocks me for not reading the mod post. So I'm scum for not looking at the list of dead people and seeing what their roles are Kay.

So, he buddies on this point and then tries to make me look bad for asking a LEGITIMATE question in an attempt to make sense of the game.

4. Taking my sweet time is blatantly false. THE NIGHT I replaced into the game, I read it and gave my thoughts. He might not like my posting style or that I gave my thoughts as the game was progressing and gave my reads throughout, but I in no way shape or form took my sweet time to post my thoughts. THE NIGHT AFTER I replace in, I read the three isos for who I had as my town reads and interacted with Junpei. He says that I had to be vote prodded to finish the rest. This looks objectively true because he did vote me on Wednesday when I hadn't hopped to it to finish the rest of my reads. I was busy. I said Sundays were busy for me. Mondays are too. I ran out of time to be able to play mafia on Tuesday, so wasn't able to get to it. It's not like there was a flurry of activity that I was avoiding here or anything. I started working on the rest on Wednesdays. So what if I was only able to finish one a night for the next few nights. They were my scum reads for one; of course I'm going to take longer to read them because I want to get them right. Also, I have a damn job and other responsibilities. Sometimes I run out of time.

HOW CAN I BE TAKING MY SWEET TIME AT ANYTHING??? Within one week of replacing into this game, I had read the game, gave my thoughts in a post, gave some preliminary reads, interacted with almost everyone, answered questions, reisoed everyone, gave a reads list, and re-read half the game. He then said I fence sat on everyone. Not true I have town reads, scum reads and a couple null reads.

His whole number four position on me is so completely false and demonstrates such a lack of really looking at my activity and what I've done that he should feel really bad about even writing that.

--------

His second case on me just gets worse. He is deliberately trying to characterize me as someone who has hidden my thoughts in this game when I've been upfront about what I think from the start. Yes, some of my reads were given before I read the game. So? What's wrong with that? I got a basic working read on the two people that I interacted with when I entered the game. Thought Slaxx seemed town and Junpei seemed scum. I don't even know if I said Junpei was scum before I even started reading, so that might have just been part of my thought process from our conversation.

Seriously? I'm scum for getting a couple of basic reads from interaction? I'm scum for giving my impression of people as I was reading through the thread and then finishing my catch up post with the pool of who I thought the scum were? Like, seriously, is this guy for real? Is anyone actually buying this? This makes me a friendly flaotie. Whatever that is. I'm not ready to just float with my reads.

He says this:

Some given before you read the game, some during, some after, some randomly, some when asked, etc.

This is completely false. Yes, I said I had a town read on Slaxx for something he said. I gave my thoughts about the game and what I was thinking as I was reading, when no one else was around, said who I thought was in the pool of scum that very night. My reads are there, clear and plain, I did this the night I replaced in. No one had to ask me. KK asked for a bulleted reads list, which I said I wanted to iso everyone to make sure of my thoughts. That was the only thing asked for. My reads were already out in the open.

This is such a blatant distortion of the events from the first night:

Your first interaction with Junpei was to ask him if he was scum in your first post after you claimed to have only read his post. So, no. You didn't read him as town for trying to read your slot. Meaning you treated him differently from Slaxx, right? So, why?

Now, when he decides to insult my personality, he tells me not to be sarcastic, which would mean he read:

I was joking. I hadn't read a damn thing. I called Slaxx and you scum in that post...the two names I recognized. You thought it was serious? Like W.T.F???

So, for him to characterize me as treating two people differently when I already explained the question he asked is distorting. He's trying to make me look like I did something I didn't. And is ignoring the very post in which I explained myself. This is what I was referring to when I said he's ignoring the posts which answer the questions he has because HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE ANSWERS. HE ONLY CARES ABOUT GETTING SOMEONE MISLYNCHED.

Again, he ignores that this has already been answered:

Since the vote-count immediately before your first post lists myself and Slaxx at 2 votes each, why do you predict a Slaxx flip of scum and not me?

I was joking. I hadn't read a damn thing. I called Slaxx and you scum in that post...the two names I recognized. You thought it was serious? Like W.T.F???

Notice how he calls me friendly floatie again - That is direct provocation so that he can get a reaction to call me scum some more.

KK - You did not answer the question. What is your read on Junpei and why. Do not give me some weak bullshit answer like duh I'm calling you v. Junpei scum v. town as if that means anything. It doesn't. It does not give an answer for your read at all. Do not beat around the bush with this. You want answers from me. You want to be a jerk and demand things from me, you can follow suit. Your answer does absolutely nothing for me. I'm town, so it does even less.

Look I can already tell from your demeanor, that you're going to win this. I don't have the experience that you have to be able to defend myself in a way that you're not going to be able to twist to make me look bad. But, here is the fact. I will flip town. I want your read on Junpei out in the open. I want it now. I want it based on evidence that is independent of me. I also want your updated read on Psyche. Both of the reads that you gave people were from when you replaced in. What you linked me to is not good enough. And, yes, this is me making demands of you. You've gone out of your way to distort what I've done and said to make me look bad, I'm not going to tiptoe around you because you're making me look bad and trying to get me mislynched.

KK - As far as the read on Slaxx, I did give him a town read based on some things he said. I am interested in what he says in his read on me because that should help me determine whether or not my initial read on him was correct. He did give a main reason for why he thinks I'm town and that does actually follow with what I know of him and how his friend would read me.

How would you in a million years think that that interaction was me asking permission to bus? Like what? This is you deliberately trying to make someone look bad. Why wouldn't you ask me if you wanted to know what it meant? IT'S BECAUSE YOU DON'T. You're not interested in finding the truth. You're interested in trying to distort a conversation or fill it with meaning that it doesn't have. His lack of giving me a read is the only thing that gives me pause; however, he did give a read he just didn't say why.

Why wouldn't I want to make sure that a read I have of someone is correct? I've had confirmation bias before on my town and scum reads, and I really try to make an effort to understand that I can be wrong, so I try to get answers the way I know how. I know it might not make sense to you or anyone why I think that Slaxx's read on me will help me determine his thought process and alignment, and in the end it might not. I think it might though, so we'll see.

Also everyone should note that he is now doing what he did yesterday. He had this big scum read on Slaxx but voted for Fatcast because *reasons*, which left him able to push Slaxx today. Now, he's got this one of Tammy-Slaxx is scum or one of Tammy-Junpei is scum.

Well isn't that just convenient. So, when I flip town, he's got his next two potential mislynches lined up. The only way they won't be is if Slaxx and Junpei are partners. Good game scum.

[Tammy]

Sorry. I swear I don't mean to write that much.

I don't know. I don't do pairings before a flip. I think that trying to put people together before one person has flipped and saying some people can't be scum because they don't make sense with x/y/z leads people down terrible paths too many times and makes people overlook who is the apparent scum.

Once someone flips, then I would look to see who makes sense as their partner but not before. And even then it's tricky because any competent scum can draw fake relational tells to innocents to frame them.

[Tammy]

Also, KK...are you telling me that your read on Psyche has not changed in the slightest or you have not doubted it based on current events? If not, why not? Consistency is a scum tell as far as I believe in scum tells, so you look pretty bad right now.

What? For replacing out? DLG replaced out too and is still posting in games and around the site. So.....

LOLNOPE! For day two play.

I also notice more often then not if a player is scum they will not defend their scum buddy (part of what KK was inferring in one statement). I'm not really big on taking small parts stated by Tammy and saying those inconsistencies make her scum. I see her thoughts on Slaxx in whole for example on why she believes Slaxx reaction as town as a good explanation.

It's more than inconsistencies. The Junpei vs. Slaxx read looks like hypocrisy to me. Also, while scummates rarely outright defend each other, it's not unheard of. Plus the demands for Slaxx to read her bother me. Like they might be outright askings on whether she should bus or not.

I know it's a little outlandish, but my gut is telling me to pursue it.[/quote]

I know I put this in my wall response, but this is ridiculous. I realize self-meta's generally shit and that I've only played scum three times (well four if you count the partial game that got eaten by the crash), but never once have I asked my partner how I should react towards them. I've always just gone by what I feel like doing, based on their play and the game state. I can't even imagine asking something like that. It would make the game too contrived, which I think causes scum to get caught too often. If I wanted to bus, I'd bus; if not, I wouldn't.

KK: Any reason you ignored that post by Tammy?

I didn't ignore anything. I may have missed something. I asked for a link, but Tammy chose not to provide it.[/quote]

Post 651 and Post 667

[Tammy]

Even if Farside turns out to be scum, forgetfulness is not a scumtell.

Oh. My. God.

I feel like in this thread, I've been introduced to some of the most backwards things imaginable.

It's a human tell. People forget things; people change their minds; people read things with different mindsets and interpret them in a different way. People are not computers.

[Tammy]

Hmm...interesting.

Junpei - When you changed your vote to KK yesterday, you said there was no reason not to condense your vote there instead. Why KK over Farside?

Slaxx makes a good point about Farside and makes me wonder why even more that Junpei got on the Farside wagon and then got off in favor of KK. Also, asking roflcopter why he's voting Farside feels off when he's been on the wagon and calling things she's done scum. I realize that he would probably ask why for most votes, but after he wanted me to quickly vote KK when I replaced in I'm unsettled.

Actually, his urgency in getting KK voted (wasn't he urging Slaxx to to that just before I replaced in as well?) and my initial scum read on him makes me feel blech about sharing a wagon with him right now.

EXCEPT look at KK's most recent post. He wants roflcopter to iso HIM and then give feedback on his cases on Slaxx and me. When I'm town and I make a case on someone and I want someone's opinion on something, whether they just replaced in or not, I don't ask them to iso me and then give feedback on the case. I ask them to iso the person, read my case and give feedback. But, that's because as town I'm interested in an honest opinion. I'm interested in them reading their iso and seeing if they see what I see or if I'm wrong in my assertions. KK doesn't care.

Anyway after tomorrow, I'll be able to pick back up with my re-read of the thread and see if I can get a stronger opinion on Farside.

Still think scum will be found in Junpei/KK/Farside though.

[Tammy]

Nothing, its what you and Delta did. Your play seems a lot more townie, particularly your push on FatCat, and even more particulary the fact you quoted my post about PRs, it showed you were really trying to pick his brain. However your push didn't seem aggressive or opportunistic, like scum finding a fake "scumslip" and trying to back the person into a corner.

Once again, Delta's claim makes him tentatively town. If we wind up mass claiming and nothing seems to interfere, he's town. If we really decide not to mass claim, then I will probably reassess where he goes on the list.

I'm working the opposite way as a lot of people do. Most look for scum. I do that to, but I typically do it by PoE: Knock out who I think is town, due partner exclusions, then choose the lynch from there. Here's a method of what I usually do, and you can look at it in any of my past games (thoughy by now i do admittedly have 1-2 scum reads by page 10 or so, its a smaller game and im finding it a bit harder):

Players 1-9 are playing a game. I'm pretty sure 1,2,3,4 are all town. I'll be player number 5.

I see interactions that make 6 and 8 look highly unlikely (like 8 leading a wagon on 6), and see some really heavy buddying between 6 and 9. I can confidently say:

6's only possible partner is 7. Therefore, if my reads are correct, there's 0-1 scum between (6,7) and 1-2 between (8,9)

Then Id list out all the different combinations and see which pairings were most likely. Thats what I meant by partner exclusions earlier. I find the game WAY more manageable to play this way then just trying to figure out scum individually (I suck at single scum tells).

Slaxx - Can you tell me why you felt like you needed to go into such detail on your scumhunting methods?

[Tammy]

I said I thought he was scum up until his last post and now he was null.

I don't understand how you have a scum read go null then.. but whatever it's honestly not important, I get what you're doing and this is probably a terminology disparity.

Uh FatCat, I have issue (and so do most people) with premature claims on principle. Also I think it's known by everyone who has ever played with me and remembers me that I take notes, in fact I reference them every game I'd think. When I said giving up your role, I didn't mean necessarily Vanilla Townie, I was more referring to Mafia Goon.

I said I thought he was scum up until his last post and now he was null.

I don't understand how you have a scum read go null then.. but whatever it's honestly not important, I get what you're doing and this is probably a terminology disparity.

Uh FatCat, I have issue (and so do most people) with premature claims on principle. Also I think it's known by everyone who has ever played with me and remembers me that I take notes, in fact I reference them every game I'd think. When I said giving up your role, I didn't mean necessarily Vanilla Townie, I was more referring to Mafia Goon.

Oh, well I'd prefer to be clear. I guess I don't get what you're saying either.

A scum can go null if he does something townie if thats what you mean

I don't get how he was at scum in the first place.

Ah, no, I never explained that. I get what you were saying.

I thought he was scum before I had even replaced in (I was reading along and jumped when I saw the replacement)

Mainly his jump on psyche looked REALLY opportunistic. There was more but I'd have to look through his ISO. Recognition over Recall. If you want I can add it to my things to do list and do it the same time as partner exclusions.

I'm not sure why, but something felt off to me about this exchange. (Putting it here for me to look at later and see if I can put my finger on it.)

[Tammy]

hi,

I breezed through some of this game, I have to run.

Claim: VT
I recall Armun wanted to confirm by revising the role PM.
I said something like a useless player that only has a vote.

unvote:
vote: FC

Explanation will have to wait till later.

Why did you claim VT this way? The explanation looks off. It looks like you wanted to explain why you know you're VT rather than just claiming VT.



--------

Iknal does look quite strongly town to me. I need to think more about KK now. We'll see how his interactions with me are later when he responds to my posts.

[Tammy]

Do people normally wonder how you scumhunt?

[Tammy]

Not too sure how many votes I have, but know I'm bordering on trouble.

Has anyone ever put any heat on Fatside? She seems to be getting a bit of a free pass, it's the second time she's jumped on my back when I've came under fire. Either possible mafia or someone with a serious chip on her shoulder.
.

Pointing finger at a person for no reason. Seems to "forget" I was the first to point out issues with him early in the game and question him that he did not answer repeatedly. Somehow that is not scum hunting for him?

I was pointing out the number of post that was OMGUS coming from him and things he never stated before.
I also pointed out the number of questions he still ignores, which is a scum tell.

Since when is ignoring questions a scum tell? Do you really believe this or did you need extra points against Fatcat? Town often ignore questions from scum. Town often don't pay enough attention to the thread to realize there's a question for them. In my experience, ignoring questions comes from town far more often than scum because scum tend to go out of their way to try to be compliant with everyone and keep in everyone's good graces.

[Tammy]

EXCEPT look at KK's most recent post. He wants roflcopter to iso HIM and then give feedback on his cases on Slaxx and me. When I'm town and I make a case on someone and I want someone's opinion on something, whether they just replaced in or not, I don't ask them to iso me and then give feedback on the case. I ask them to iso the person, read my case and give feedback. But, that's because as town I'm interested in an honest opinion. I'm interested in them reading their iso and seeing if they see what I see or if I'm wrong in my assertions. KK doesn't care.

Okay so don't get me wrong - I definitely think Kublai Khan is scum and want you to vote him. But I feel compelled to point out the utter bullshit (excuse my language) that this paragraph is.

Also Kublai Khan is a stronger scumread than Farside.

How is it bullshit? If you really care about your case being accurate and others having an accurate view, you should be asking them to iso them and then your case, not you. That's ridiculous to call that bullshit. Cases are always written from the case writer's point of view, which means it's inherently biased. It can't not be. It's the same way that history books are not compiled of just facts, no matter how much historians try to peddle it so, because it's always written from someone's (usually the victor's) point of view.

Also, why if KK was a stronger scum read did you change to Farside before. Why not stay on KK and push that case if it's stronger?

[Tammy]

Not too sure how many votes I have, but know I'm bordering on trouble.

Has anyone ever put any heat on Fatside? She seems to be getting a bit of a free pass, it's the second time she's jumped on my back when I've came under fire. Either possible mafia or someone with a serious chip on her shoulder.
.

Pointing finger at a person for no reason. Seems to "forget" I was the first to point out issues with him early in the game and question him that he did not answer repeatedly. Somehow that is not scum hunting for him?

Damn. Sorry for the spam; I have a little bit of free time right now. And, I forgot to actually put in my point about this.

This struck me as odd. You put forget in the scare quotes, yet you've been defending yourself against forgetting things from Junpei.

[Tammy]

HEY IKNAL
I HAD YOU AS TOWN BUT WHAT IS THIS

Last visited:
Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:44 pm

uhhhh this is boring
I'm not really sure who I want to talk to yet.
Farside, sorry to FLASHBACK LATCHON, but can you link to pass self-votes and stuff?

And AGAIN since my last check
Ikky's been posting elsewhere

uhhhh this is boring
I'm not really sure who I want to talk to yet.
Farside, sorry to FLASHBACK LATCHON, but can you link to pass self-votes and stuff?

And AGAIN since my last check
Ikky's been posting elsewhere

The last time I self voted I was modkilled in the game. It's been awhile and I don't remember the name of the game. I just remember replacing in the game and the modkill.

I looked at Iknal post per day. He doesn't look to be a heavy poster ikn post

Not really a tell unless you know he is posting more often as town then scum.

Farside - When Ellibereth was bringing up Iknal's posting on other sites and not posting here and thinking it was suspicious, you said

bold

. Why were you using the same argument about Psyche then?

[Tammy]

Also, KK, when responding to me later. Please give me your read on Farside too...kthnxbai.

[Tammy]

EXCEPT look at KK's most recent post. He wants roflcopter to iso HIM and then give feedback on his cases on Slaxx and me. When I'm town and I make a case on someone and I want someone's opinion on something, whether they just replaced in or not, I don't ask them to iso me and then give feedback on the case. I ask them to iso the person, read my case and give feedback. But, that's because as town I'm interested in an honest opinion. I'm interested in them reading their iso and seeing if they see what I see or if I'm wrong in my assertions. KK doesn't care.

Okay so don't get me wrong - I definitely think Kublai Khan is scum and want you to vote him. But I feel compelled to point out the utter bullshit (excuse my language) that this paragraph is.

Also Kublai Khan is a stronger scumread than Farside.

How is it bullshit? If you really care about your case being accurate and others having an accurate view, you should be asking them to iso them and then your case, not you. That's ridiculous to call that bullshit. Cases are always written from the case writer's point of view, which means it's inherently biased. It can't not be. It's the same way that history books are not compiled of just facts, no matter how much historians try to peddle it so, because it's always written from someone's (usually the victor's) point of view.

Also, why if KK was a stronger scum read did you change to Farside before. Why not stay on KK and push that case if it's stronger?

1) The ideology which makes what Kublai Khan did bad is not exactly objectively correct. For instance the idea that you have to ISO X before reading a case on X in order to critique the case. I would argue that you don't need to do that.

The order in which it is done is immaterial. But reading a case without reading the material on which it is based is horrible. It would be like reading a book review and then critiquing the book off the review without reading the book.

[Tammy]

chill out with the votes guys
I don't know how close he is to dead but relatively close?
we'll sit and wait for ikky
and slaxx

ikky may replace out.

unvote

Sorry for the spam again. Little bursts of time.

How did you know this? He didn't mention in thread he was thinking about replacing out.

[Tammy]

This:

The night talk thing is BS, I am pretty sure I outlined why waiting one day might be better. Also, I don't know if its anywhere ON the site, but Reg and I agree a lot that the best time to claim is after a Scum roleblocker flip if there is one. In this case, a single scum PR flip would be enough for me to advocate it the next day.

is not the same as this:

Elli we can claim tomorrow after we lynch scum today just in case our inv role is tracker k

You can't just re-invent your argument based on something you said to someone somewhere at sometime. You may truly believe the above quote, but I'm holding you responsible for what you've actually said.

In this game, you said that we should wait because we might have a tracker, not because we should have a scum PR flip first. Why? Are you, as scum, worried about being tracked?

KK - You need to walk me through how this is suspicious. Based on events from night one, scum have a roleblocker. If Slaxx were scum he would know that his team had a roleblocker, right? Therefore, wouldn't he be completely gung ho at the very first suggestion of a mass claim because he knowing that he has a tracker on his hyposcum team would very very much want the tracker outed so that his team could block him. Why would he suggest in the first place that they should wait a day in case there's a tracker?

Now I realize this post is made day one, but it appears in your case on day two. It demonstrates you not reevaluating your thought process based on information received over the course of the day. Why aren't you reevaluating?

[Tammy]

Farside:
1. I said DLG was townier for that, Junpei and I even had this discussion. I had DLG as a scumread, his last post read as town, so he was null.
2. Okay, I didn't vote. Most of the game I was waiting on mass claim, and I actually did vote at the very start of the game. Then, when mass claim was all panned out, someone hammered prematurely before I was even ready to vote. Hmmm. Who was that?
3. "Lies and assumptions" forst off is an extremely vague term, I can't even remotely respond to that, and (surprise) this whole fucking game is based on assumptions.

1. You didn't say much about why DLG was scum and had him neutral, then state in 94 a town midset. I asked what the fuck changed it to scum and why?
2. Why does it matter if people were going to mass claim or not? Even after mass claim you still didn't vote so really this response doesn't hold much to me.
3. Okay lets say over exagerrates and pumps up a case.

I'm up for a lynch in either Iknal (strongest scum read) or FatCat (think he is a little more likely to flip town, but we get to strike out a lot of possibilities if he flips scum and can let psych off the hook if he's town).

Willing to lynch a person that went MIA for weak reasoning or the VI at any time, what happened with DLG?

Farside - Are you using this as a point for why Slaxx is scum? This coupled with the post in which you responded to Ellibereth's suspicions over Iknal's lack of activity here while being active on site looks really odd with respect to your suspicions of Psyche and vote on him.

(Slaxx - you might not remember calling a post I made in the game we played together dumb due to my belief that some contradictions weren't necessarily scumtells. These are the types of contradictions that I find suspicious.)

Also, really really sorry for spamming the thread. I'll probably do a few more tonight. I ended up having more time today than I thought, which means I probably won't have time tomorrow.)

[Tammy]

KK - You did not answer the question. What is your read on Junpei and why. Do not give me some weak bullshit answer like duh I'm calling you v. Junpei scum v. town as if that means anything. It doesn't. It does not give an answer for your read at all. Do not beat around the bush with this. You want answers from me. You want to be a jerk and demand things from me, you can follow suit. Your answer does absolutely nothing for me. I'm town, so it does even less.

Look I can already tell from your demeanor, that you're going to win this. I don't have the experience that you have to be able to defend myself in a way that you're not going to be able to twist to make me look bad. But, here is the fact. I will flip town. I want your read on Junpei out in the open. I want it now. I want it based on evidence that is independent of me. I also want your updated read on Psyche. Both of the reads that you gave people were from when you replaced in. What you linked me to is not good enough. And, yes, this is me making demands of you. You've gone out of your way to distort what I've done and said to make me look bad, I'm not going to tiptoe around you because you're making me look bad and trying to get me mislynched.

Also, KK, when responding to me later. Please give me your read on Farside too...kthnxbai.

Pretty sure you ignored this KK in your wtf wall post on me, which hey Junpei you're correct, was all based on slanted rhetoric.

[Tammy]

I'll respond to the other points later but heading off to work.

Okay, so part of KK's case is that I'm scum for trying to find out the accuracy of the doctor claim. For some reason, how dare I question to make sure it's accurate, ask why the doctor didn't die and if it is a believable claim, especially considering that we're treating Rainbowdash as confirmed town.

If any other sane person can tell me why it's such a huge travesty that I wanted to make sure of this, I will sit back and take my mislynch like a quiet little girl and consider it lesson learned for every other future game I play in to just take role claims at face value.

Because really? WTF?

[Tammy]

Also, I'd like to point out the coginitive dissonance of calling me desperate newb-scum, saying I took my sweet ass time to give reads, then says I quickly finished after being voted after telling me that it wasn't quick to do one a day for three days.

Can someone explain how any of that goes together? If I was just desperate newb-scum (note how he's going after easy mislynches) would I not be putting everything else in my life on hold to get in here to hurry up and meet his demands?

I can't believe he's sticking to his point to make me look scummy. He admits that it's a weak point but then tries to make me look even scummier because I explained myself for the outrageous accusation that I was putting things off when I was just busy. I didn't put it off, I just didn't have the time to do it when I hoped I did. Still, if I were desperate, pretty sure I'd make the time or lose sleep to get it done.

[Tammy]

AAAAAAHHHHHHH YYYYYYEEEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH...

LET'S DANCE KK..

LET'S FUCKING DANCE

!

Okay, so part of KK's case is that I'm scum for trying to find out the accuracy of the doctor claim. For some reason, how dare I question to make sure it's accurate, ask why the doctor didn't die and if it is a believable claim, especially considering that we're treating Rainbowdash as confirmed town.

BECAUSE RAINBOWDASH IS A CLAIMED COP AND THE BODYGUARD (A PROTECTIVE ROLE) DIED
You are obviously fake-playing being dumb at this point. Because that can't be legit.

How hard is it to grasp that I DIDN'T REALIZE THERE WAS A BODYGUARD UNTIL IT WAS POINTED OUT TO ME?????????

I understand now. In fact, I'll let you in on a little secret. I didn't give up my paranoia on this issue until yesterday. Why? Because I've been following this discussion here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4179085 which has to do with the balance of the CN game. Yesterday is when I remembered that we had a bodyguard in that game to protect the tracker. That is when it clicked and all made sense that of course we would have a cop (or something) if we have a bodyguard, and it would make sense for there to be a roleblocker too.

I suck at issues of balance. Literally suck at it. I have to have things about roles and issues explained to me almost every game, and I've never played in a 9-player game before. I'm not dumb and I'm not playing dumb; I just don't know a whole lot about what to expect with roles. I'm learning but it's not my storng suit.

I have at least a littel bit of pride. I wouldn't fake ignorance over something that would make me look so stupid. I'm sick and tired of scum trying to make me feel stupid for not understanding things when I'm trying to understand how things work.

Also, I'd like to point out the coginitive dissonance of calling me desperate newb-scum, saying I took my sweet ass time to give reads, then says I quickly finished after being voted after telling me that it wasn't quick to do one a day for three days.

How about the cognitive dissonance that those two points had

nothing

to do with each other?

You are so obviously scum. You are not a mislynch. You are a scum-lynch.

You keep repeating that. Maybe someone will believe you and put it to the test. I'm not scum, but thanks for playing. I think it's pretty obvious which one is the scum here. One is misrpeeing and distorting and another is trying to figure out teh game. A quick read through of my iso should be enough to prove to anyone I'm not scum, but yeah go ahead keep trying. As i said before, I know you're going to win in this battle with me. I can tell in the way you're provoking me thta you're trying to get a reaction you can use to further point to why I'm the scum I'm the scum I'm not.

Nope! In what universe do they not have anything to do with each other? You called me desperate newb-scum. That is an indication of my personaltiy and how you are trying to characterize my approach to this game. If I were desperate newb-scum, I would be engaging in the behaviors typical to desperate newb-scum. EXCEPT I'M NOT. BECAUSE I'M NOT SCUM AND I'M NOT DESPERATE. They absolutely go together. You can't complain about me taking my sweet time, then say I had to be vote prodded, then say that I

finally

got them done by Friday, then say I quickly got them done. Which is it KK? I would say doing one a night for three nights isn't quickly getting them done.

If I were desperate newb-scum, which is an indicator of my person, what would my behavior have been? Would I have hopped to it to get things done to be compliant in my desperation? Pretty sure if I were desperate, that would be how I would act. But, I didn't. So, was i lazy scum on Tuesday but desperate scum on Wednesday?

You cannot give a signifier for my personality or behavior as a whole and then go welp it doesn't apply here.

If you were town and not engaged in a smear campaign against me, you'd see my point.

[Tammy]

roflcopter - Explain how in this universe his case has merit. Have you actually read my iso or are you just going off his distorted case?

[Tammy]

Brilliant. His case is distorted. Why don't you read his case on Slaxx since you have a gut town read on Slaxx and read my rebuttal to his case on Slaxx. I think his case on Slaxx is crap. And my town read on Slaxx and rebuttal of his case is part of what got him on this Tammy is scum crusade.

His distortion of what I've said and done is worse than what he's saying about Slaxx.

[Tammy]

Also, why do you have a town read on Khan to the point where you're just taking his cases at face value?

[Tammy]

And good game scum. You've snowed town.

First, this type of shit is not pro-town behavior. This isn't a logical argument, this is emotional manipulation. And I'm not misrepresenting you by stating that. You are directly appealing to emotion (AtE) with this "Woe is me" crap. Your responses ever since I posted my case on you is literally peppered with this kinda of scum manipulation.

I love it when scum try to appeal to these types of buzzwords as if people sit around and try to come up with manipulative statements. People say things when they are being wrongly accused for things and scum use these buzzwords to gain mislynches.

YOU are being the manipulative scum here. NOT ME. And people are actually listening to you, which as I said is good game scum.

1. Apparently I'm scum for having a town read on Slaxx.

Ok, stop. For someone that hates misrepresentation, you are engaging in it pretty early and strongly in your rebuttal post.

I never said that you were scum for having a town read on Slaxx. I said you had an unnaturally and incomprehensible strong town-read on Slaxx. If you are denying that there is a difference between the two, then you are distorting my arguments.

I forgot the adjectives. Oh yeah that's me misrepping. PFFFFFTTTTTTT.

I explain why to Farside when she asks me. You know what's interesting? She actually asked me, and engaged with me. Shows me that she's interested in finding the truth. Did KK ask me anything?

Nope, he just set about to deliberate distortions.

I gave my original answer to Farside in Post 651 and she asked for clarification so I gave it in Post 667.

Bolded is your theory. It's false.

farside22 and I have different mafia playstyles. She asks questions and evaluates answers. I accuse and evaluate reactions. I've used this playstyle effectively for a while now.

You accuse people of doing things they haven't done so that when they react you can say "caught scum"? Your play style sucks. And you should feel really bad about criticizing anyone else's play style or scum hunting methods when you play by accusing people of things.

Thank you for finally providing links I asked for a while back. Your strong-town still does not make sense to me. If a person commits 1 town-tell in the midst of 10 scum-tells, then the town-tell is irrelevent (unless overwhelmingly strong which I don't agree that your Slaxx town-tell is). If you are town, then that means that you noted a town-tell, then read the entire game with such a town-oriented confirmation bias towards Slaxx's behavior that I don't ever recall seeing a town player ever do that. Your certainty is too determined to be natural.

I note the language you are using and if people don't actually see that you are scum I am so fucking lost right now. You asked me for the link, in the midst of an insult Sunday morning. I gave the link Sunday afternoon when I had a break from my family. There was no delay that warrants your finally remark. You didn't ask a while back that I ignored. Even IF I waited until today to provide it that would have been full within my rights as I'm on V/LA and am posting when I can. (And besides, I have asked you for reads on people that you are ignoring. You don't get to pull this finally crap with me. MISREP MORE)

You are AGAIN ignoring posts which would fill you in. I didn't start reading the game with any form or bias. Yes, I got a working town read on Slaxx and a working scum read on Junpei from our interaction. I don't understand how you can't see why that comment would warrant a town read on Slaxx for me. We just got finished playing in a game together in which I replaced into a scum slot. If he were scum, why wouldn't he use that to his advantage? Why wouldn't he say something about it? He would have every right to do it. I wouldn't be able to hold it against him or think he was suspicious for it.

I replaced in, to a slot that has some suspicion, and he says "I hear she's an easy read." That doesn't sound like scum mentality to me. AT ALL.

I don't agree with you on your scum-tells made by Slaxx. So you're saying I dismissed scum-tells, that I don't see as scum-tells, for one town-tell. Did you even read my reads that first night? Let me help you out here:

Meh,..my predecessor had a townish feel for Junpei - don't know why. But, Slaxx voted for him, which gives me a good early feeling for Slaxx.

Slaxx gives a town-scum list. Fairies die!!! I hope you're happy. I don't know what to make of Slaxx. I've read him wrong before. (Heheheheheheh...really read the game before I read my role pm in the last game we played together and thought he was scummy when he was innocent, and now I'm all keblunk on what his alignment is.)

I don't get the KK thing against Slaxx. I've replaced into a game after keeping up but gone back through to ask particular questions and comment on things through a re-read. This, just like his introduction post, feels shallow and WHY ISN'T HE VOTING FOR SLAXX AT THIS POINT???????? I agree the pairing scum hunting is crap, but I've seen him do it as town so...

Serious Question - Do you all believe that Slaxx as scum is stupid enough to admit to needing to re-read the thread upon replacing in? Seems like an insanely stupid thing for scum to do because they would be expecting for people to go "AHA CAUGHT SCUM!!!!!!!" I can see it much more coming from town than I can from scum unless it's newbscum, which Slaxx doesn't fit.

hehehehe Junpei if you think Slaxx should take a break for Post 551 you should see some of the crap I post...or probably not.

DLG is being replaced.

Although I highly doubt a replacement would come in and hammer, why risk it? I've seen a replacement come in and hammer confirmed scum in 3 way lylo because he misread flips (yes, it was an open setup), so there's literally no reason to risk any lulz. Once the rep gets here and talks then yeah I'll be ready for a vote most likely, unless he is scum and does something that reveals himself.

^^^Townposting.

How does that tell you that I went into my read with some strong confirmation bias. I already explained this to Junpei when he thought that I went into the read with some strong confirmation bias that he was scum. The things that I said should let you know I was trying to figure out Slaxx and if my initial impression was correct. Which I come to at the end of my read through.

In fact, if you were paying attention, I called Slaxx town last night upon replacing in from something he said. Then in my reads I twice said that I didn't know what to make of his alignment because I have trouble reading him. That should tell you that I didn't start reading with biases in place.

Yes, I had working reads, but the very fact that in my first thoughts I state that I don't know what to make of his alignment because I read him wrong before should clue you in that there was no confirmation bias about it.

WHICH YOU KNOW because you claim that my reads have conditions. How can I have an unnaturally strong town read on Slaxx and at the same time make it conditional???

This does not compute. Your statement about my reads being conditional negate your statement that alludes to me going into the day with some confirmation bias that is unnatural.

And yes, I refuted points to his Slaxx case because I don't agree with several of his points. But, rather than have a discussion with me about it he just throws up this crap. I think some of his points were crappy, and I didn't refute every single one of his points. I defend my townreads. I've unfortunately had strong townreads on scum and worked really hard to keep them from getting lynched. I will also point out crappy points being used against someone I'm suspicious of. It's because I'm interested in finding answers not mislynching people. KK is not.

I considered fighting with you point-by-point on my case, but 1) none of those were new and 2) I had argued every single one of those points in the pages prior. So the fact that you wanted to re-argue every point meant to me that you probably just wanted to increase the noise level of the game and make town apathetic by just re-hashing the same thing over and over. If you read the game then you read the reasoning behind all my arguments already.

I'm a new person in the game who doesn't agree with the points you've made and you don't want to discuss any of them with me? Yeah, I read your points. I read what you said. I didn't agree.

2. He gets all bothered about my scum read on Junpei. Yes, I weighed the fake dayvig gambit in, it's something that is one aspect that troubles me about the scum read. I even mention that it might fit town meta in Post 750

But one gambit isn't going to make me think someone is definitely town when behavior suggests otherwise.

And, as I pointed out the behavior with regards to me felt like it came from scum not town.

How can you say something like that yet claim not to understand why I'm totally thrown by your Slaxx town-read?

A continual misrep. I don't agree with the points against Slaxx. I don't find them scum tells so I didn't decide that one town tell negated a whole bunch of scum tells. One - I don't think having to go back and re-read a game to give thoughts is a scum tell. I have to do that in games I'm actually in. Sometimes on a quick break from work I might follow a games happenings on my phone, but when I get home to give my thoughts I have to go back. A friend of mine is playing in the Murder in the Louvre game. I've been reading along. If I were to have replaced into that game, I would have to go back and read because I wouldn't be able to give my thoughts from just me casually reading along. Two - Reading and playing IS a different experience. These are two of your major points that I think are absolute crap. The others we could have discussed. I don't know about the mass claim thing because I've only played in a few games that have mass claimed. Like literally don't know much about the pros and cons. I gave you my view because I don't see what's so suspicious about it and could interpret it differently.

The only part of your case against Slaxx that I didn't totally negate was the bringing up of irrelevant meta or other games. I said it felt thin. But, it's the only thing that I thought had merit. EVERYTHING else I thought was a stretch or not alignment indicative.

I didn't ignore a multitude of scum tells in favor of one town tell. I thought one potential tell was suspicious and ignored it in favor of a few town tells and his behavior. That's it. It's different from my read on Junpei which was one possible town tell that was drowned out by what I thought was behavior indicative of scum.

See the difference? Probably not becauese you're too intent on distorting my actions instead of trying to ascertain the truth. Which is what scum do.

[Tammy]

3. The point about me being scum for questioning RD. Awful. Absolutely awful AND speaks to him buddying confirmed town.

Uh, no. That's the worst buddy-accusation I've ever seen.

Well there has to be some reason for you accusing me of being scum for trying to determine the validity of a role claim.

Why is it ridiculous for me to question the confirmed town of someone who claimed cop at L-1? I dont' just take claims at face value. So, I'm scum because I didn't know there was a bodyguard until it was mentioned? I'm scum because I didn't know the balance of the game until Slaxx pointed out why it was most likely? How is it scummy to try to figure out if someone everyone is saying is confirmed is actually confirmed. Why is it scummy for me to try to determine if someone fake claimed? And then in his next post he mocks me for not reading the mod post. So I'm scum for not looking at the list of dead people and seeing what their roles are Kay.

Fucking yes. The mass claim was the single most-notable thing to have happened during the course of this game. How the hell are you so ignorant about it????

deltabacon may have claimed at L-1 but it's irrelevent because only 2 PRs claimed during the massclaim. An investigative role and a protective role. The protective role died, so how in the world are you casting doubt on the credibility of the investigative role on Day 2? There's a 0.00000001% chance that deltabacon/Rainbowdash is lying about their role. Everybody in this game has seemingly picked up on that except for you.

To put it very bluntly, I think you are playing very dumb on this point. I think you know that Rainbowbash is nigh-confirmed-town. You have the ability to block him, but you just wanted to bring up the "is he really town?" WIFOM thinking to see if he was lynchable so you didn't necessarily have to waste a NK on him.

So, he buddies on this point and then tries to make me look bad for asking a LEGITIMATE question in an attempt to make sense of the game.

Not buddying and your question was not likely to come from a town-mindset.

Keep in mind that I wrote Post 624 when you replaced in. So I know that you knew the setup when you were asking your LEGITIMATE questions.[/quote][/quote]

You can't believe this. I know you can't honestly believe this. I did not realize there was a bodyguard. I don't know how hard this is to understand.

So, you're honestly telling me that hypscum me decided to see if I could get the town cop lynched, while I knew for certain there was a town cop? I'm sorry I just can't even follow the logic of this accusation.

How is me trying to figure out if something was valid NOT a town mindset?

Oh, and just so you know, your post 624 doesn't say anything about the bodyguard that died the night before.

So, in your mind, I knowing that my hyposcum team killed the bodyguard and that it existed, decided to try to question the cop's existence and wonder why the cop didn't die last night. AND

4. Taking my sweet time is blatantly false.

I'm not going to quote your excuses. YOU gave ME a deadline as to when you'd have your work done. Two days after that deadline, I voted for you to finish. Then you quickly finished.

I'll grant that this was probably the weakest point of my initial case. Please understand that I find it scummy that you've spent the most time/words attacking this point.

He then said I fence sat on everyone. Not true I have town reads, scum reads and a couple null reads.

All your reads have come with caveats. "Slaxx is a strong town read, but it's conditional on what his read on me is." "Rainbowdash - town, right? If he's the cop, why didn't he die?"

People who do that have a public out for being able to change their minds later.

Seriously? I'm scum for getting a couple of basic reads from interaction? I'm scum for giving my impression of people as I was reading through the thread and then finishing my catch up post with the pool of who I thought the scum were?

Yes. The first two people who interacted with you did seemingly the same thing.

Slaxx said that he heard you were easy to read--then never followed up. Junpei committed an action that would lead to him trying to figure out your alignment.

Right now, to me, it looks like you considered words to be much much louder than actions. To me it looks like you entered the game with a prejudiced read on Slaxx based on information that I don't have.

This is completely false. Yes, I said I had a town read on Slaxx for something he said. I gave my thoughts about the game and what I was thinking as I was reading, when no one else was around, said who I thought was in the pool of scum that very night. My reads are there, clear and plain, I did this the night I replaced in. No one had to ask me. KK asked for a bulleted reads list, which I said I wanted to iso everyone to make sure of my thoughts. That was the only thing asked for. My reads were already out in the open.

Stop lying. Your reads are far from clear. Is Post 617 a clear and plain read, or is it just giggle-bullshit? Is your vote for Junpei on Page 2 a clear and plain read?

Now, when he decides to insult my personality, he tells me not to be sarcastic, which would mean he read:

I was joking. I hadn't read a damn thing. I called Slaxx and you scum in that post...the two names I recognized. You thought it was serious? Like W.T.F???

So, for him to characterize me as treating two people differently when I already explained the question he asked is distorting. He's trying to make me look like I did something I didn't. And is ignoring the very post in which I explained myself. This is what I was referring to when I said he's ignoring the posts which answer the questions he has because HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE ANSWERS. HE ONLY CARES ABOUT GETTING SOMEONE MISLYNCHED.

First, I told you not be sarcastic based on Post 758 which was directly before my post. Nice try at misdirection.

Also note that I asked you to link to the post where you explained yourself. And then I asked farside22 to link to that post BECAUSE YOU WERE SO BUSY SHOUTING LIES that you couldn't be bothered to give the answers I obviously care so little about that I had to ask two people.

Notice how he calls me friendly floatie again - That is direct provocation so that he can get a reaction to call me scum some more.

WTF? I was making a metaphor. Metaphors are scummy now?

Also, KK...are you telling me that your read on Psyche has not changed in the slightest or you have not doubted it based on current events? If not, why not? Consistency is a scum tell as far as I believe in scum tells, so you look pretty bad right now.

What? For replacing out? DLG replaced out too and is still posting in games and around the site. So.....

LOLNOPE! For day two play.

What specifically about his Day 2 play are you talking about? Quit beating around the bush.

EXCEPT look at KK's most recent post. He wants roflcopter to iso HIM and then give feedback on his cases on Slaxx and me. When I'm town and I make a case on someone and I want someone's opinion on something, whether they just replaced in or not, I don't ask them to iso me and then give feedback on the case. I ask them to iso the person, read my case and give feedback. But, that's because as town I'm interested in an honest opinion. I'm interested in them reading their iso and seeing if they see what I see or if I'm wrong in my assertions. KK doesn't care.

Stop fucking spinning. You're a desperate little newb-scum trying to seize every opportunity to discredit an attacker.

I respect the fuck out of roflcopter (OMG! Buddying!) and he's replaced in a slot that I have a strong town-read on. I'm asking him to judge the value of my cases because guess what? I'm fucking human. If roflcopter tells me I'm off-base, then I'll take his opinion under advisement.

KK - You need to walk me through how this is suspicious. Based on events from night one, scum have a roleblocker. If Slaxx were scum he would know that his team had a roleblocker, right? Therefore, wouldn't he be completely gung ho at the very first suggestion of a mass claim because he knowing that he has a tracker on his hyposcum team would very very much want the tracker outed so that his team could block him. Why would he suggest in the first place that they should wait a day in case there's a tracker?

Now I realize this post is made day one, but it appears in your case on day two. It demonstrates you not reevaluating your thought process based on information received over the course of the day. Why aren't you reevaluating?

Scum are never gung-ho about the idea of a mass-claim because town shouldn't be gung-ho about the idea about a mass claim, due to the fact that it's a bad idea.

Regarding the tracker/roleblocker: It took me a few minutes, but I see what you're saying. I guess I didn't reconsider it when the day started because I just focused on other games while it was night. When the game opened I just picked up where I left off.

Keep in mind that being for or against the mass claim idea is a null-tell since it's a preference of game strategy. It's the fact that Slaxx changed his mind about the mass claim to go along with town preference that is scummy.

Tammy males sense [as farside22's partner] but she is probably town.

@Tammy - Was this the read you're waiting for? What's your conclusion?

--
tl;dr - Sorry for the Tolstoy. Tried to keep my responses as brief and on point as possible.[/quote]

[Tammy]

mod - can you delete the previous? Or at least delete from point 4 down? Right after AND. ?

I didn't mean to hit submit. I don't know how that happened.

[Tammy]

4. Taking my sweet time is blatantly false.

I'm not going to quote your excuses. YOU gave ME a deadline as to when you'd have your work done. Two days after that deadline, I voted for you to finish. Then you quickly finished.

I'll grant that this was probably the weakest point of my initial case. Please understand that I find it scummy that you've spent the most time/words attacking this point.

I do understand that you are twisting everything to make me look scummy. I do understand that you find it scummy that I have responsibilities outside of mafia apparently. I'm not going to keep defending myself about this. I put in a good amount of time upon replacing in. I hoped that I'd have all the reads done in a couple days. I didn't end up having the time. I did it when I had the time and still well within activity levels in this game.

He then said I fence sat on everyone. Not true I have town reads, scum reads and a couple null reads.

All your reads have come with caveats. "Slaxx is a strong town read, but it's conditional on what his read on me is." "Rainbowdash - town, right? If he's the cop, why didn't he die?"

People who do that have a public out for being able to change their minds later.

I don't need a public out for changing my mind later. I change my mind all the time. I didn't say Slaxx is a strong town read, but it's conditional. I said Slaxx is a strong town read, but what his read on me and why should help me read him better.

Are you honestly faulting me for wanting to make sure my reads are correct? One time in a game I spent two weeks pushing a wagon on someone, then he wrote a post which I thought seemed really genuine and I got off that wagon. The next day people were pissed off at me because my getting off the wagon must mean we were scum partners and I got desperate and jumped ship and derailed the wagon. It was bullshit. He was innocent, I was innocent, and I realized it at the last minute. I'm not afraid to change my mind; it's what you do with new information. I'm always evaluating and re-evaluating people and I'm not afraid to be wrong.

I always try to allow for the possibility I'm wrong. Almost every time I don't town pays. Recently, I defend scum tooth and nail. I did every single thing I could to keep scum off the lynch because my read was so strong. Half the town kept trying to convince me I was wrong, and I wouldn't listen. When he was counterclaimed I was even about to argue for why he could still be town before he basically came clean and I realized I was wrong. So yeah, do I say I have a strong town read but his future behavior might help me determine whether or not that's right? Absolutely.

How does the RD read have an unreasonable caveat? He's the town cop, so town, right? But, yeah, why didn't he die? At the time I did not know there was the bodyguard that died the night before. Geeze...I would be the stupidest scum in the world to keep questioning the existence of the cop I would know was there.

Seriously? I'm scum for getting a couple of basic reads from interaction? I'm scum for giving my impression of people as I was reading through the thread and then finishing my catch up post with the pool of who I thought the scum were?

Yes. The first two people who interacted with you did seemingly the same thing.

Slaxx said that he heard you were easy to read--then never followed up. Junpei committed an action that would lead to him trying to figure out your alignment.

Right now, to me, it looks like you considered words to be much much louder than actions. To me it looks like you entered the game with a prejudiced read on Slaxx based on information that I don't have.

He didn't? What's this then?

I'll tell you the main reason I think Tammy is town:

Tammy: "Hey Slaxx, you're like 100% town to me, I'm going to defend you. Also, I heard you were susceptible to buddying, do you think Junpei did that to you or is it affecting your read on him?"

If Tammy is really using a technique she knows will influence me while calling attention to that technique in like the same breath as scum, she is either brilliant or retarded. I think she's town and I'm not lynching her.

Sounds like a read to me. And it's a read that is based on reasoning that I can understand. Here's the thing. He might have heard I'm an easy read, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I am. And I was interested in what he would come back with. If he came back with a strong town read for bullshit reasons that don't follow with how his friend thinks, as he said they typically think alike, or even a scum read for other bullshit reasons, it would make me re-evaluate him. Recently, yes, he says he thinks I'm probably town.

That probably fits for how he should be thinking if he and his friend think alike; although his original reasoning for finding me town is strong and really good enough. His friend

can

read me really really well. But his friend has seen me as scum and as town multiple times. He's misread me as town because there are certain behaviors that are rather strong town tells of mine that he thought were suspicious the first time we were town together. Since he knows my town play and he's seen me try to mimic my town play and react in ways that people who know me will test me on to figure out my alignment when they're unsure, I'm easy for him to read as he says that my scum and town play are near polar opposites. I'm easy for a few people to read, but not everyone.

What I wanted to see from Slaxx might not make sense to you, but it does to me. I know why I'm an easy read to some people, but that shouldn't apply to Slaxx necessarily, so his reaction to me could have told me something based on that unless he was told what to look for. (Now Slaxx has seen me as scum before, but only for a day and I'm pretty sure he had a light town read on me at one point so that might not even help with him knowing how to read me.)

Stop lying. Your reads are far from clear. Is Post 617 a clear and plain read, or is it just giggle-bullshit? Is your vote for Junpei on Page 2 a clear and plain read?[/post]

I'm not lying at all. Post 617 was OMGUS pure and simple. My vote for Junpei from page 2 yes, I'm pretty sure I very clearly stated that Junpei was scum and that we should lynch him. I then said clearly that scum will be found in Junpei/KK/Farside. Those are three clear scumreads. Don't know how you can't see that or why you keep misrepping me on that.

First, I told you not be sarcastic based on Post 758 which was directly before my post. Nice try at misdirection.

Also note that I asked you to link to the post where you explained yourself. And then I asked farside22 to link to that post BECAUSE YOU WERE SO BUSY SHOUTING LIES that you couldn't be bothered to give the answers I obviously care so little about that I had to ask two people.

Did you say, Tammy I think post 758 is sarcastic so can you stop based on that post being sarcastic? Looks back. NOPE! The only post from my memory in which I had been purposefully sarcastic was the one I quoted. Nice try at buzzword. You insulted me. You did it on purpose to provoke a reaction, which you could use to pad your case that I was scum.

Also, KK...are you telling me that your read on Psyche has not changed in the slightest or you have not doubted it based on current events? If not, why not? Consistency is a scum tell as far as I believe in scum tells, so you look pretty bad right now.

What? For replacing out? DLG replaced out too and is still posting in games and around the site. So.....

LOLNOPE! For day two play.

What specifically about his Day 2 play are you talking about? Quit beating around the bush.

You don't know what updated reads are? Psyche's day two play was quite different from his day one play. I'm not beating around the bush. Why didn't you notice the difference in his play? If it didn't change your read, that's all you had to say, but still. Why are you so busy trying to secure mislynches that you can't be bothered to reassess someone based on their play?

Stop fucking spinning. You're a desperate little newb-scum trying to seize every opportunity to discredit an attacker.

Pot-kettle. You've spun every single thing about me to make me look like scum when I'm not. Yeah, I'm going to point out your scummy behavior. If you don't like it, STOP BEING SCUMMY!

Scum are never gung-ho about the idea of a mass-claim because town shouldn't be gung-ho about the idea about a mass claim, due to the fact that it's a bad idea.

Regarding the tracker/roleblocker: It took me a few minutes, but I see what you're saying. I guess I didn't reconsider it when the day started because I just focused on other games while it was night. When the game opened I just picked up where I left off.

Keep in mind that being for or against the mass claim idea is a null-tell since it's a preference of game strategy. It's the fact that Slaxx changed his mind about the mass claim to go along with town preference that is scummy.

I've only been in 3? games that mass claimed. In each one they acted like it was the thing to do, so I'm not sure I follow on this. But I don't see why changing his mind is scummy. Wouldn't he, as scum, at least keep up appearances that he was going along with it but didn't want to?

[Tammy]

Sorry they're so long

[Tammy]

^^^KK says "Help me make Tammy's first mislynch a reality. We'll have food and cake afterwards and I'll laugh at what suckers you all were to believe me she was scum."

[Tammy]

Okay. I'm not going around and around with Tammy anymore. I can't convince her that she's scum, so there's no point in continuing the noise element of the game. It's clear that her only reason for attacking and voting me is because I posted a case on her. In the midst of all her complaints about being misrep and distorted, she's distorted several of my arguments and misrepresented me.

So now I want to hear people explain the reasons why they aren't voting her.

Well, you can't usually convince town that they are scum, so nice try. And, sure I guess you wouldn't want to go round and round with me when I've refuted all your points that you distorted.

I'm voting you not just because you posted a case on me. I said scum would be found in you/Junpei/Farside the night I replaced in so good of you to keep overlooking that. You're case on me was so full of distortions and blatant misrepresentations of what I said that it's obvious you're scum.

[Tammy]

Okay so, I was able to finish re-reading and I came away with the same reads.

I'm still reading Slaxx as town. I read with what Farside said in mind, but I don't see the issues with scumhunting that she pointed out. And I still believe the points against him are very weak and don't read as scum tells. One of the points that farside keeps bringing against him is the overreaction to pressure and votes. I consider emotions to be town tells not scum tells so these points are meh. Heh...Faraday, in describing how to read me, told a game recently to run a few votes on me and I flip the fuck out as town, most of the time. It's something I have a hard time faking as scum. People that know how to read me know I react strongly to votes and suspicion when town in a way that I don't when scum. I'm actually trying to be less emotional as town so I don't get caught as easily as scum. Fancy that. So, for me this isn't a scum tell at all.

Again, I still think that if he were scum he would very easily be able to use the suspicion against me when I replaced in instead of saying he heard I was an easy read. Upon replacing in I would have been a far easier person to try to get lynched if he was going survivalistic and trying to save himself, but he didn't. Also, look at his reasons for not voting KK when they were waiting on a replacement. That just doesn't sound like it comes from scum to me.

RainbowDash is still town. Yes, now I understand that he has to be the town cop. Geeze sorry for the paranoia, not realizing the bodyguard was there, and not being well-versed in issues of balance

roflcopter - Completely null. Psyche did read as strong town on day one, but day two seemed like active lurking to me. I like the gut town read on Slaxx, so that's good. But, he hasn't been around long enough for me to evaluate him. I don't like that he read KK's distorted case on me and isn't looking any further. This is worrisome.

Still think scum will be found in Junpei/KK/Farside

Junpei - I'm less convinced of Junpei than when I replaced in. The feeling that he's trying to direct the game is troubling. It could be part of his personality, but sometimes scum feel like they are in more control and it comes out in the way they play. I get a sense of that. Many of my original issues still hold. However, he's thrown me off by giving me a town read in the midst of this. Scum are less likely to do this, so for him to take a step back from our original argument, reassess and say my thought process more likely comes from town isn't something that I would expect him to do as scum. He could be joining the crusade against me with KK but he's not. This has me hesitating and is shaking my previous read.

KK - Scum. The only thing that makes me hesitate is how hard he's pushing me right now. He would know this is going to be a mislynch if he makes it go through, but i don't know KK's style as I've never played with him before. This could be his scum self. For him to say the things he has, claim he's been objective (LULZ) while at the same time using rhetorical language that is false and designed to provoke a reaction and distort the things I've said and done and then refuse to listen to anything I say is really weird. I can't see it coming from town though either. Seriously look at the case on Slaxx. Look at the case on me. It's so full of shallow scum hunting and blatant misrepresentations of what has happened. He's negated things said which answer his complaints all in the hopes of securing mislynches. This is not town trying to make sure town wins; this is scum.

Farside - farside's play bothers me and I think it's likely that she is scum as well and would fit as KK's partner I think. Farside spent the majority of day two declaring a Junpei/FC scum team. That's pretty much all she talked about. Then KK shows up and starts going after Slaxx. All of a sudden Junpei isn't on the table anymore and everything is about Slaxx. Her case on Slaxx is just as shallow as KK's and it's rather weird the way she dropped Junpei to go after Slaxx but today says that if it weren't for her suspicion of Slaxx and Psyche, then she'd go after Junpei. Her attitude about Junpei is what makes me more concerned about Junpei and about her. My concerns about them being a possible partner are probably the strongest thing that gives me doubt about KK being scum.

[Tammy]

What town tells has KK committed RainbowDash?

Also, your avatar has a creep smirk...just so you know.

[Tammy]

^^^it's supposed to say creepy not creep. *know how to spell swear*

[Tammy]

What is making me antsy about the KK wagon is Junpei's pushing of it. He seems to want it too much and to happen quickly. When I was re-reading I was reminded of him pushing Slaxx to vote the night I replaced in (or it might have been the day before or whatever). Then he seemed to want me to vote for him hurriedly.

My problem with KK is I just don't see how town could read my explanations for things and still think I'm scum. I mean I could get behind town confirmation bias and have been the object of a horrible tunnel from town before, but I can usually get a sense of genuineness at some point that I can't find here in KK.

[Tammy]

*sigh*

unvote

I need to think.

[Tammy]

I try to stay away from meta, but where's Kanye's game? I can't find it.

[Tammy]

Slaxx - Wasn't part of the reason that you thought Iknal seemed town was because he seemed to try to diffuse the FC/DLG? argument? Isn't he doing a similar thing in 261?

I'm re-reading through scummies. I knew KK seemed familiar to me from somewhere.

I can't believe I'm reading through people's meta right now.

[Tammy]

But has farside even commented on anything with KK?

If not, isn't that odd?

She defended Iknal against suspicion from Elli, then picked up KK's case against Slaxx and ran with it forgetting the Junpei thing.

[Tammy]

IDK...I don't know if I see a big difference between Iknal's posts there and here. There aren't enough to tell and I even looked at them side by side. Your team was in Scummies right? Cause Magua was on your team, right? I don't know...there he feels different than here. He just seems more conscientious and conversational...like he's actually trying to solve the puzzle and not force pieces apart. HOWEVER, some of his responses to MoI were such comic gold that I almost don't want to vote for him just because of that. Also, since I'm the focus of his attacks here and I'm not there, I could be reading him wrong. I'm not sure of anything at this point now.

[Tammy]

@Slaxx - Gain town points by lynching Tammy.

This kinda feels town to me. As scum he would know I'm a mislynch, so selling my lynch to Slaxx as something that would gain him town points. I don't know...would scum actually do that?

[Tammy]

Why are you giving me a hard time for caring about getting the lynch right?

My strongest town read is telling me that KK is town. Rainbow Dash is saying that he thinks KK is town.

I'm going to take that into consideration, especially considering that KK has been recently attacking me and I can't be exactly objective right now.

Your sarcasm was fine. It wasn't that he wouldn't try to get me lynched as mafia; it was the way that's worded. The other ones are rather typical, but telling Slaxx lynching me would gain him town points? As mafia, he would know that I'm a mislynch, so trying to tempt Slaxx with town points feels weird coming from mafia. What town points will Slaxx get when I flip town?

[Tammy]

I am so utterly confused by what you just posted.

[Tammy]

Today when we were interacting. RainbowDash said that KK is very probably town and so did Slaxx.

I don't know who's more likely to be wrong right now because I don't really trust my judgment. I had him in my likely scum pool before he attacked me, but I do tend to see people who attack me as scum if I can't understand why they're attacking me. This is where KK fits; his attack on me doesn't read genuine to me and he is distorting things I've said and done. When people attack me the way he has, I'm likely to believe they're scum and my judgment gets thrown off.

[Tammy]

These posts changed Junpei. Yes, I knew Rainbowdash had a town read on Iknal, but through all of his case building and distorting he's remaining a town read for Rainbowdash.

They are seeing what he's doing and still think he's town.

That makes me want to take a step back and reassess to make sure I'm not pushing for someone's mislynch. Yeah, if his chance for lynch rises, I want to make sure that I'm being objective and that I'm pushing for someone's lynch because I truly believe they're scum and not mostly because I'm mad that they're attacking me in a terrible way.

I have two people telling me I'm likely wrong; two people who are either confirmed town or strong town to me. I'm going to at least take what they're saying into account.

I don't know why you're giving me a hard time for caring about trying to get it right.

KK is so probably town its not funny.

Iknal read as heavy town, while I didnt get the same warm fuzzy feeling from KK, the recent move has been something that I view as somewhat of a towntell, or at very least something where his partners are severely limited to Junepi-KK being the only one that I can see making sense at this point in time. He is trying hard to pull things the direction he wants, while its true that the wagon on farside is going nowhere fast, I think its not something scum would do with this little wiggle room.

Lynch I think is going to have to be one of farisde-KK today, I would still really like it to be Junepi instead but im coming to the conclusion that its simply not going to happen because of something im not sure of.

For the Tammy-KK exchange, either the case are way too meandering or I just dont see all the points against them outweighing the town tells that they both have comitted to me. Maybe I would vote Tammy first by merits of DGL play, but ideally neither of them gets lynched.

Im not sure why im not voting farside really at this point because I think its a forgone conclusion if a Junepi lynch doesnt become possible in the immediate future, maybe im just wanting to see what happens now thative declared that intention. We will see.

Also, I'm nowhere near for sure on KK. His play looks like stubborn derptown the more he posts. If he's scum that personality sure looks good on him.

Also I remember Farside saying Junpei defended FatCat but I also remember her quoting posts FROM junpei and voting junpei, so that whole they had to be a team thing doesn't fly.

I think probably 7 or 8 times out of 10 farside should flip scum here.

And I don't like a KK lynch, something feels really dirty about it. Also, go look at kanye's game and ISO Iknal and tell me he isn't a pretty transparent guy.

Ok I don't wanna be a dick BUT KK's play here is bad, but I don't think its scum.

And not bad as in LOLHEWRONG because I've eaten my words so many times before

But just...idk, its hard to explain. but I don't think he is scum and I don't think Iknal was either after looking back at the other game.

[Tammy]

I didn't say I thought he was town. I unvoted and said I needed to think. I took Slaxx's advice and read an Iknal's scum meta and re-read the Scummies game to get a better feel, which is something that I don't necessarily trust anyway but still.

I know 180s aren't just assumed to come from town. I took a whole lot of crap in GvE for deciding the night before deadline that Zdenek was likely town and derailing the wagon after pushing it for two weeks. I did that because I realized I might be wrong on my own and after talking to a strong town read about it. But, it doesn't matter I'm not going to push a wagon I'm not sure I believe in because I'm afraid of the crap I'm going to get for it.

I want to make sure I'm right or at least am being objective about the vote I'm going to give. And to do that I need to take a step back and breathe.

[Tammy]

Waiting on DB's report, but yeah, KK/Farside are both beautiful lynches. KK and Iknal both share the posting style of "this person should be lynched, now lets make a case on him" as opposed to "let me scumhunt first then lynch somebody"

The only thing that confuses me is KK knows its really hard to mislynch me so I'm a bit confused why he went after me. If scum really are in (DLG/Farside/KK) though I guess he would HAVE to push me if I wanted to win the game since Junpei/Psyche are more town than me overall. Basically, if KK is scum, it only further confirms my town reads on Psyche/Junpei.

Slaxx - How much experience do you have with KK? Have you seen him as scum/town before?

[Tammy]

@ mod This might be a silly question, but when you say deadline is at midnight July 13th, do you mean tonight or tomorrow?

[Tammy]

Everyone should vote farside.

Also, not until this game Tammy.

But you weren't asked to explain your scum hunting process, you were just asked why some people shifted on your reads list.

[Tammy]

Farside - What is your read on KK?

[Tammy]

rofl - Why besides sheeping Slaxx do you prefer the farside lynch. Every time she posts she just seems more and more genuine that I'm not sure about my earlier scum read on her.

[Tammy]

rofl - but why do you prefer farside?

I've thought scum would be found in Junpei/KK/Farside since I entered the game but I keep going back and forth between them.

But, determining how genuine a person seems in their posts is how I get many of my reads. How is it different from gut?

[Tammy]

RainbowDash - How certain are you about the town tells you said that KK dropped for you?

[Tammy]

Why did you vote for yourself? There was still plenty of time in the day to discuss things.

[Tammy]

I don't get it. Then why all the yelling about Slaxx?

[Tammy]

I still don't understand why you voted yourself though. I don't think your lynch was a foregone conclusion.

What is your read on Junpei?

Also on roflcopter?

[Tammy]

But I think that Junpei was a viable lynch today over you, so I'm still at a loss.

I'll take another look at Slaxx if you do flip town though. There were a couple things that had me doubting myself, which is pretty evident in the things I posted and questions I asked. I wouldn't vote him today over it, but it was enough to give me a bit of pause.

Do you really think that copter would have just come in and declared his buddy town by gut and follow his read?

[Tammy]

But I think that Junpei was a viable lynch today over you, so I'm still at a loss.

I'll take another look at Slaxx if you do flip town though. There were a couple things that had me doubting myself, which is pretty evident in the things I posted and questions I asked. I wouldn't vote him today over it, but it was enough to give me a bit of pause.

Do you really think that copter would have just come in and declared his buddy town by gut and follow his read?

Knowing copter as I do, yes.

You seriously thinking I'm scum with this back and forth and my lynch already happening? Seriously that's just stupid thinking.

As for Junpei.....who was voting for him other then RD? Slaxx.......hell no he is pushing my lynch (with no case ever put in the thread) and KK as much as possible and even though he declared you as town he says he's thinking we can be scum together. How much fucking sense does that make?
You think mr. copter who is doing nothing this game will switch? He doesn't care about this game (nothing town about that). He would rather float by doing shit like Pyche did this game and hope no one notices. You think KK is going to switch? Shit that person is too tunnel and the fact he thinks a person would rant like I did and still say I'm probably scum is not worth the time it takes to lynch anyone.

I said yesterday I was having my doubts on you being scum because you seemed so genuine with every post. (Copter told me afterwards that genuine wasn't a way to read people.)

I say "if", not that I think it's a foregone conclusion, but to allow for the possibility.

[Tammy]

Sorry farside, I forgot you were moving.

I still don't understand why you would prematurely hammer if you're not scum. Whynot a "hey, I won't be around. Slaxx is scum for (reasons). Bye"?

As I said day 1. I want my thoughts on who is scum to stand out at the start of the day. I will rant and rave and make damn fucking sure no one forgets those things they fucking ignored through out the whole day that Slaxx completely ignored and got around thanks in part to RD and Tammy and Junpei for completely giving him all the outs a scum could ever ask, while never having to explain his actions or case to anyone.

Have I mentioned what a fucking fantastic job players are doing in letting people skate by in this game with an actual case and declare people town based on one post.
Great job to you 3. If you are all town, then congrats of totally fucking the town over.

Sincerely

farside

I don't think that's completely fair. If you'll see, I was posing my own questions to Slaxx over the past few days and posting a couple things that seemed off to me. I might have given him a town read when I replaced in (and am hesitant to give that up completely) but I was still looking into him. His overexplaining of his scum hunting process to Junpei when Junpei only asked how why some people changed places feels really off to me, as does the conversation between Junpei and Slaxx that I posted a couple days ago.

I just think it was premature to vote yourself when there was still a possibility of you not getting lynched. And if you are a mislynch, this is the last one we had and we needed to try to get it right.

[Tammy]

You really think she'll flip mafia after all that ranting?

[Tammy]

I might waffle on a lot, but it's just because I don't actually know things and I recognize I don't know things (I'm like Socrates - really wise and all that jazz). I still come to the correct conclusion often enough; I'm just careful about it.

[Tammy]

So...uh...*kicks the sand*...Rainbowdash really was the town cop.

roflcopter - plan on doing anything today?

[Tammy]

I still don't understand why you guys vote for yourselves here. I don't even think it's allowed at the other site I play at as it's considered playing against your wincon. (I could be wrong about that, but I've never seen it done, so it's very odd to me.)

I still don't know that I'm buying her case on Slaxx.

But, Slaxx, what's your read on roflcopter?

[Tammy]

What made your reads flip?

[Tammy]

So, Tammy opens with a "*emotion* Damn a town PR died".

That's not what I said at all, KK. Like, really don't know where you got that interpretation. If you remember I spent the majority of yesterday paranoid that Rainbowdash wasn't the town cop and apparently made myself look pretty stupid in the process. Rainbowdash's death and flip confirmed that I was wrong. I was acknowledging that.

Okay.

1) Kublai Khan still should be the target.

2) Slaxx are you willing to undergo interrogation (respond to points, questions)?

3) Same question to roflcopter as Tammy

4) Tammy: is it that the case is not convincing or that Slaxx's play other than the case is town?

What kind of questions are these? And if it felt important to you to clarify it, why didn't you ask KK?

As far as Slaxx...I haven't re-read the case, so I can't really answer that. I know I don't agree with some points and Slaxx answered some of her questions fairly. I have Slaxx as town, but as I told Farside yesterday in twilight, there were a couple things that were giving me pause and that I would look deeper into them. There are aspects of his play that read town, but I also know that I tend to have an unnatural attachment to my town reads. I'm liable to change a scum read on the basis of a post or two, but it takes a lot more to change a read from town to scum for me. (I realized what a weakness this was for me in GvE when I spent days arguing with you all about BB, and even after he was counterclaimed wasn't convinced until he basically confessed.)

Anyway, we're in LyLo right?, so I'm going to take a look at everyone. I still have Slaxx as most town to me, and there were things that KK said at the end of yesterday that had me reading a bit town, which would leave you and rofl. However, KK is right that your reaction in twilight was a bit townie-ish, though I wish Rainbowdash would have said why it was a scum reaction, but that only leaves rofl, and all of you can't be town.

[Tammy]

So, Tammy opens with a "*emotion* Damn a town PR died".

That's not what I said at all, KK. Like, really don't know where you got that interpretation. If you remember I spent the majority of yesterday paranoid that Rainbowdash wasn't the town cop and apparently made myself look pretty stupid in the process. Rainbowdash's death and flip confirmed that I was wrong. I was acknowledging that.

But what reason does it serve to acknowledge that?

Why not acknowledge it? Even though it made sense due to balance and I told you that the team mafia thread discussion helped me understand and rid me of paranoia, there was still a little bit of doubt. I was wrong to be paranoid; I was admitting I was wrong.

-------
Hrm. I've been on Slaxx and Tammy all game. I'm not dead, but the mass claim means that scum were limited to eliminating power roles. Except they weren't, though. They have a roleblocker, which means that they could have easily blocked Rainbowdash again and killed someone else. However, Rainbowdash was confirmed-town to everyone (except Tammy) so his death was probably just the removal of an unlynchable town role. So, same difference.

At this point I want to reach into the dead thread and slap Ellibereth. The mass claim only served to help scum and make our power roles completely ineffectual. He's deprived us of the easy game where a cop claims at this point with some results and wins the game. So now we gotta play the hard game and analyze everything.

I don't want the game to die so I'm going to set a deadline of later tonight (~1am est or so) to post some analysis.

I agree with this that Rainbowdash wasn't necessarily the obvious kill since they had a roleblocker. In Closed Normal we left Porochaz alive because we could roleblock him and kill other people, so it served a purpose for us. I don't know what purpose if would have served to keep Rainbowdash alive though, unless he was completely on the wrong track and would have served the mafia's cause better alive. Although who knows, he probably was the only smart death due to the questions that would have been raised if he did live.

I probably won't be able to do anything with this game really until tomorrow as I won't have a chance to read through the thread again before then.

[Tammy]

I'm going to try to do some stuff on this this weekend, maybe tomorrow, but probably not tonight. (If I do, it will be late, and I can't guarantee that it will make a lot of sense...fair warning.)

Not a lot of things have shifted for me though. roflcopter is a complete unknown and I don't like that he just came in and was like gogo farside go, so some of this will be put off until I can see what he provides when not just sheeping someone upon arrival.

Also, interested in KK's analysis.

[Tammy]

So my thoughts remain with a Slaxx/Tammy scum-team. I'll start with Tammy.

First, this:

Why not acknowledge it? Even though it made sense due to balance and I told you that the team mafia thread discussion helped me understand and rid me of paranoia, there was still a little bit of doubt. I was wrong to be paranoid; I was admitting I was wrong.

This encapsulates a lot of my problem with your play. It doesn't address my question and just adds fluff and misdirection to the game. You didn't have admit that you were wrong. I mean, it's a given that you were wrong since before Rainbowdash even died. There's no oevrall town-benefit to admitting wrongness so... uh, yeah. Plus there's zero reason to bring up Team Mafia as a source of paranoia since IIRC you were scum in TM. So where would the paranoia come from?

You are misunderstanding me, which if you are town, I think is part of the problem. I have no problem admitting I was wrong, and if you look at my original post it was clear I was acknowledging my embarrassment at being extremely wrong about something that was obvious to everyone else. Also, I never said Team Mafia helped to instill my paranoia. I've used Team Mafia twice - Slaxx and I played in a game together in which I replaced in as scum. Him not using that to his advantage when I replaced in here is where I got my initial town read on Slaxx.

The second time, where it relates to the RainbowDash situation was the Team Mafia results thread in which the balance of the game I played in was brought up. It was following that discussion, in which in a 13 player game town had a back up role, a tracker, and a bodyguard. Scum had a roleblocker. In following the discussion on balance, I realized what everyone had already been saying - that the bodyguard is there to protect the town role. I then also remembered when GreyIce was asked why he didn't guard anyone night one, he said that the bodyguard exists to protect power roles. That's when it clicked and made sense that there would be a cop if there was a bodyguard here. It had nothing to do with the game itself or my alignment in the game, but the balance discussion which made things in this game more clear.

My paranoia was coming from someone who claimed town cop and L-1 and was being treated as confirmed town. I didn't pay attention to the bodyguard issue until it was pointed out to me, and it didnt' sink in until reading that discussion about balance. I suck at issues of balance and I rarely pay attention to roles that are claimed and even when I do usually forget people's claims.

I really wish that you would pay attention to what I actually state. If you did, I think you'd understand where I'm coming from and maybe you'd see why I think you're misrepping me. I think if you are town, and you read what I've actually posted, you'll see that I'm trying to figure out the game. I may not have the same mindset or approach that you have, but just because I'm different than you or react differently to things doesn't mean I'm scum.

[Tammy]

Also, KK - what do you make of Slaxx looking through your predecessor's meta and urging me to look through it to in order to get me to see the likelihood of your being town? Usually when scum look through meta, they do it find stuff they can exploit, not to find things they can clear people with.

What would be his scum motivation for doing that? He could have very easily joined me and Junpei on your wagon yesterday and tried to talk Rainbowdash into voting you as well, but he didn't. He actually tried to convince me I was wrong about you.

Why would he do that as scum? As scum lynching you would have just been the same to him as lynching farside, would it not?

[Tammy]

My paranoia was coming from someone who claimed town cop and L-1 and was being treated as confirmed town. I didn't pay attention to the bodyguard issue until it was pointed out to me, and it didnt' sink in until reading that discussion about balance. I suck at issues of balance and I rarely pay attention to roles that are claimed and even when I do usually forget people's claims.

See, that's difficult for me to believe. Sucking at balancing is different from ignoring the fact that there was a mass claim. It wasn't a subtle mass claim either. You were distinctly told about it.

In general, scum hate confirmed town because it hurts them in LYLO situations and narrows their options. So the goal is either to discredit confirmed townies or eliminate (NK) them. From my POV, you tried to discredit Rainbowdash by questioning his claim. When that failed Rainbowdash was eliminated instead of RBed. It fits.

I never said I missed the mass claim. I missed the bodyguard claim, and didn't realize that the bodyguard wouldn't be the only pr. So, you're telling me that it's easier for you to believe that I am so mind-numbingly stupid as to try to discredit the town cop

when everyone else had already believed them to be confirmed innocent

as scum than it is to believe that I just missed the bodyguard claim and have trouble with balance?

I really wish that you would pay attention to what I actually state. If you did, I think you'd understand where I'm coming from and maybe you'd see why I think you're misrepping me. I think if you are town, and you read what I've actually posted, you'll see that I'm trying to figure out the game. I may not have the same mindset or approach that you have, but just because I'm different than you or react differently to things doesn't mean I'm scum.

I've been ditch-digging for the past 3 days, so I haven't had the energy to re-read the game in full (just isoing to find the things that stuck out at me).

The thing is though. If you're town, you need to do more than claim misrepresentation. I very much like Occam's Razor and to an issue like Rainbowdash (for example), my version is simpler and thus more likely. The onus is one town-you to either prove your innocence or to present a stronger case on someone else.

I have done more. I've asked questions and given reads, but quite frankly I'm getting to the point where I almost don't care and that sucks because I always care. I feel like if you're town, we've lost because you're being so hard-headed when it comes to me that I don't know what else to say. And, if you're scum, you've won because I don't think you'll get the votes to be lynched. I just feel like we're in a lose-lose situation right now because almost no-one is working on any sense of common ground.

I don't have any sort of read on roflcopter either so it's frustrating.

[Tammy]

roflcopter - The problem with psyche is that he started out pretty strong early day one, but nearly all of day two did little more than active lurk and promise content that never came. Also Farside pointed out how he claimed not to have internet so he needed to replace out but is playing in other games and replacing into other games.

If he had kept up the level of play that pretty much got him a town read day one, you probably wouldn't be an empty spot, but because of how he dropped off day two, you are a hard read.

[Tammy]

So are the /dig things you see most likely?

Cause if so, I'm the common denominator in all of them, and you should feel like pretty bad about that one.

Meh. With Junpei saying he's isoing me, KK stuck on me for really hardheaded reasons and roflcopter putting me as a common denominator, I can see where this is going. KK's just going to sheep roflcopter anyway and if they're not the scum team, the remaining scum will hammer.

Whatever. I really can't be bothered to care at this point. I'll congratulate the scum team upon the flip.

/sitting the rest of this one out *town gave up*

[Tammy]

Sometimes; it's actually quite a towntell for me if you know how to read me. However, I'm not defending myself, and this is actually nothing. If I wanted to pile on AtE at the moment I actually could but I don't think it has a place in a mafia game.

I'm seeing a losing cause. KK has either willfully or unwillfully completely misinterpreted so many things I've said in this thread that it's not funny. You see me as the most likely of all partners in this thread. If you and KK aren't partners and you follow each other, which I expect from KK's attitude towards your predecessor and your arrival, then scum will very easily follow the two of you for the win. And, I don't believe the two of you are partners really, so it's seems a pretty likely conclusion.

There is no appeal to fear. It's a fact, you lynch me, town loses. I'll congratulate the scum team upon the flip. Simple as that. I'm just not going to keep on fighting when it's getting me nowhere. I've explained myself and my reads more than once; I've done what I can do. I just really don't see the benefit of me doing anything more when only one other person here has a town read on me. (I mean Junpei might but I don't really know.)

[Tammy]

Actually me giving up, if you know how to read me, is not a town tell at all. Me giving up is a scum tell usually, but I'm also learning that sometimes it doesn't pay to keep trying.

[Tammy]

Actually I don't mean to defend myself with appeal to buzzwords, but it's been categorized that way. I just tend to rattle off what I'm thinking rather quickly. *shrug*

[Tammy]

I never said I missed the mass claim. I missed the bodyguard claim, and didn't realize that the bodyguard wouldn't be the only pr. So, you're telling me that it's easier for you to believe that I am so mind-numbingly stupid as to try to discredit the town cop when everyone else had already believed them to be confirmed innocent as scum than it is to believe that I just missed the bodyguard claim and have trouble with balance?

That's the issue. If you missed the bodyguard claim completely, then you should have been MORE LIKELY to believe that the cop-claim is legit, not less.

I'm going to explain this to you one more time and then I'm not addressing it again. I've been as transparent as I could possibly be and the fact that you keep harping on this issue tells me you are not paying attention or reading thing that I have said.

In fact, I'll let my ISO spell it out for you:

This is just a real quick serious question to everyone. How certain are you that RD is really the cop? Something feels very very off to me. I realize that I suck at balance, but this doesn't feel right. Delta claimed at L-1. I thought that it was just a mass claim thing, but no he claimed when he was about to get lynched. Not very credible as he could have just been claiming cop to get out of a lynch or to draw out the real cop.

Why are we accepting RD as confirmed town basically? Why didn't he die last night if he's the town cop? Aren't town cops like the first to go? The scum would have to be some serious newbs not to kill the outed cop, right?

The point about me being scum for questioning RD. Awful. Absolutely awful AND speaks to him buddying confirmed town. Why is it ridiculous for me to question the confirmed town of someone who claimed cop at L-1? I dont' just take claims at face value. So, I'm scum because I didn't know there was a bodyguard until it was mentioned? I'm scum because I didn't know the balance of the game until Slaxx pointed out why it was most likely? How is it scummy to try to figure out if someone everyone is saying is confirmed is actually confirmed. Why is it scummy for me to try to determine if someone fake claimed? And then in his next post he mocks me for not reading the mod post. So I'm scum for not looking at the list of dead people and seeing what their roles are Kay.

So, he buddies on this point and then tries to make me look bad for asking a LEGITIMATE question in an attempt to make sense of the game.

How hard is it to grasp that I DIDN'T REALIZE THERE WAS A BODYGUARD UNTIL IT WAS POINTED OUT TO ME?????????

I understand now. In fact, I'll let you in on a little secret. I didn't give up my paranoia on this issue until yesterday. Why? Because I've been following this discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22615&p=4179085#p4179085 which has to do with the balance of the CN game. Yesterday is when I remembered that we had a bodyguard in that game to protect the tracker. That is when it clicked and all made sense that of course we would have a cop (or something) if we have a bodyguard, and it would make sense for there to be a roleblocker too.

I suck at issues of balance. Literally suck at it. I have to have things about roles and issues explained to me almost every game, and I've never played in a 9-player game before. I'm not dumb and I'm not playing dumb; I just don't know a whole lot about what to expect with roles. I'm learning but it's not my storng suit.

I have at least a littel bit of pride. I wouldn't fake ignorance over something that would make me look so stupid. I'm sick and tired of scum trying to make me feel stupid for not understanding things when I'm trying to understand how things work.

If you have not been able to get from that exchange that I don't have a firm grasp of issues of balance, then I don't know what to tell you. Sure, maybe it would make sense to YOU for there to be a cop without a bodyguard, but it didn't make sense to me. Maybe after I've been playing this game for five years, this will be something familiar to me. Right now I go off of what I have experience with, and this is a set up I have never played in.

Can we be done with this conversation now? You are reaching MoI levels of hardheadedness with this, and I'm not going to address it again.

Do you realize you've pretty much literally stopped scum hunting and spent an inordinate amount of time on this issue which should be pretty simple for you to understand if you had been actually reading my posts?

I don't have any sort of read on roflcopter either so it's frustrating.

Did you not read the paragraph were I cleared roflcopter? If so, what's wrong with it?

Yeah, I read it. Are you kidding me? You engage in a conversation with me about my not understanding balance in which you keep either trying to make me feel stupid for not understanding something I'm not familiar with or even stupider that I would ask those questions as scum. You've either misread or misrepped me on several points. You've brought up things to make someone look guilty that I don't think are indicative of guilt, and you're asking why I'm not just taking your read on roflcopter at face value?

You've done absolutely nothing to suggest to me that I should be following your instincts on roflcopter; therefore, I'm not going to.

[Tammy]

Yeah KK...Maybe because my comments make sense if you fucking read them while yours make lick none.

You know what. Fuck this. Don't care. If Slaxx is scum, good job and I'm happy to hand it to you.

VOTE: Kublai Khan

[Tammy]

But I'm going to say probably not. Junpei/KK/roflcopter. One of those. KK's done nothing, absolutely nothing, to show that he's actually interested in finding scum in this game. He's stretched and misrepped and harped on little tiny things that he can't possibly believe if he's thinking with a straight mind. I see no town motivation in anything he's done this game or any of the conclusions he's come to. It's hard to find scum when you're actually scum, so it's much easier to pull the crap he has, and if I'm wrong, well he's done absolutely nothing to prove me otherwise.

[Tammy]

actually

VOTE: roflcopter

better choice probably.

[Tammy]

KK - Funny you're accusing someone of being an idiot.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

If you both are so certain that I'm scum, you should just go ahead and vote me then. It can be over today. If we do hit scum today, and either of you are alive tomorrow and happen to be town, you're just going to vote me anyway without actually paying attention to anything because who cares about actually finding scum.

So, if you both are going to refuse to actually look at this game objectively, please vote me today so we end this. kthnxbai.

[Tammy]

Oh and this is not me playing against my wincon and I hate losing, but either KK and roflcopter are definitely scum or they are so uninterested in actually figuring out this game that it's pointless to do anything else.

[Tammy]

Okay.

VOTE: KK

[Tammy]

Please?

[Tammy]

Okay so either, roflcopter and KK are buddies or KK is scum but roflcopter is town or both are town but I don't believe that. That would make Junpei/Slaxx the scum team. And none of that would explain KK's behavior this game.

[Tammy]

Hey roflcopter, why don't you go ahead and start the trend. You vote for me.

[Tammy]

Thank you KK. This is about to be my first mislynch. I couldn't be happier that this game will be over soon.

You will find that everything I've said in this game has been the absolute truth. I suck at balance, don't understand roles, think Slaxx is innocent. You have absolutely stretched everything and so not cared about truly finding the mafia in this game, and that sucks.

But, thank you for helping to make a quick end of this. I'll congratulate the scum team when you end it, and congratulate KK for being so hardheaded and pompous so as to make it nearly impossible to actually find scum if he is in fact town.

[Tammy]

Oh and if Slaxx is indeed scum, then well played. I was absolutely fooled.

[Tammy]

But, oh yeah, thanks for continuing to try to make me feel stupid for not understanding something that I don't have experience with in the first place. You're just a real pleasant guy. /sarcasm

[Tammy]

Although KK, did it not cross your mind...just a little if you're town...why roflcopter asked you to switch

from

Slaxx

to me

without actually voting for me himself.

Did it? Just a little? A tiny little bit? Like a flicker?

Probably not, cause if you're town, you actually think you know something you're so completely wrong on it's laughable. But, sure I have untown reactions. At least I've been truthful in mine.

[Tammy]

Actually nevermind that was stupid. Roflcopter would have just hammered you if he and Slaxx were the scum team or if he and Junpei were the scum team.

Still, it's a bit weird.

So, scum team can only be:

KK/roflcopter
KK/Junpei
KK/Slaxx
Junpei/Slaxx

[Tammy]

Whatever KK your face is anti-town.

You have to be scum, because I literally can't believe you are this dense and pompous. You. just. can't. be.

You've declared there's only one route and one route only. Slaxx and Tammy is scum. Except that's false. So, from my point of view, take me today or tomorrow. It doesn't matter, town will lose either way, and I'm so fed up with you trying to make me feel stupid for something and your whole demeanor and attitude that I'd rather be done with it today.

That is far from anti-town. If you actually are town in this game, which I actually hardly doubt, you are have played this in such an anti-town manner that I don't want to hear one word from you. It's really quite ridiculous.

[Tammy]

Crap okay posting from home on my way homegrom funeral. Sorry if this doesn't make sense. 95% certain rofl is town. 95% certain team is km/junpei. 100% certain its kk. If rofl hell of a gambit. Scum rofl wouldn't make it 1v1 with me and his partner knowing town jumpsuit would hammer kk confirming junpei as town and ensuring his loss in lull. Too big a gamble totake unless I'm not making sense. Basically if you are town rofl leaving it up to jumpsuit guarantee town loss. Sorry for phone shit posting. Am I making sense?

[Tammy]

I just have to say that my reads were pretty spot on and came really really quickly. I'm pretty happy about that. Sucks that I was unable to convince others quick enough, wtf roflcopter wtf, and that I got driven so crazy irritated by KK that I ended up not being able to be convincing and quite frankly at the end just didn't care anymore.

Knowing that he was evil makes his annoyance a little more tolerable but fuck.

Sorry Slaxx that I wasn't able to hold it together to help us win it, but I'm really glad that other than a few moments of paranoia I stuck to my strong town read I got of you right after replacing in.

Congrats team evil and thanks for letting me replace in and running it Amrun.

Oh, and this was my first mislynch. (I'm going to count it as different from a mislynch when I start the game as myself though )

[Tammy]

RD TAmmy and Slaxx all boasting about their reads. Uh wat lol

gg though

Oh you're right Junpei, I didn't correctly identify you as scum immediately upon replacing in or the other potential scum soon after. Oh wait there's thread evidence for that one. I may not have been able to convince people of it, but yeah. My reads were pretty solid. My ability to get you lynched was not.

Although it was amusing reading about you whining that I got Slaxx to change his mind on you so wat wat lol.

Sore winners are sore winners.

[Tammy]

I get to say whatever I want. I said my reads were correct. Which they were. I wasn't able to get my scumreads lynched, but that in no way shape or form means that my reads weren't absolutely fucking correct.

I mean if your ego needs to downplay my accuracy because you feel inferior that I correctly identified you as scum within 20 minutes of replacing in, that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that my reads were spot on.

I also can't help that roflcopter cared so little about this game that he paid no attention whatsoever to actually reading anyone. Which is pretty apparent from him replacing in and immediately jumping onto farside. If there had been a replacement that actually cared and took the time to pay attention, and not acted as dumb as cooldog did in closed normal, things might have turned out differently.

This town worked against itself, and you benefited from that. That doesn't detract from our being accurate in our reads.

Finding scum and killing them are two separate things, but you can live in lalala land all you want.

This is actually the first time I haven't been able to get my scumreads lynched, and it's been a learning experience. I know that part of it is how frustrated I got dealing with KK, and if I wouldn't have gotten so frustrated things might have turned out differently.

That, Junpei, is being aware of one's own limitations and not discarding other people's accuracies because you feel the need to be superior. But, in time you'll learn when you grow up young padawan.

[Tammy]

OMG LOL. Your ego really knows no bounds does it. This is called sore winning. Like seriously, you fucking won. No one is taking that away from you.

We losers simply said that we were happy about some aspect of our play while accepting our faults that caused us to lose, and we in no way shape or form took that win away from you. AND YOU'RE TAUNTING US for it. You're saying "bullshit you don't have a right to look at one positive aspect of your play because you lost" and that is utterly ridiculous.

You really do have a terrible inferiority complex don't you? Did you ever play a team sport or anything like that? Because acknowledging what the losing side did well doesn't detract from your win, and if you had any social skills whatsoever you would know that.

Do you actually pay attention to yourself Junpei? Like do you? You have got to be one of the most unselfaware individuals in the world.

So, Junpei, I realize that you think you're like ubersmart and everything, but is your reading comprehension on the level of a 2nd grader or something. Because I'm quite certain that I accepted my fault in being unable to get my scumreads lynched. That is accepting my part in the loss. If I want to point out that roflcopter didn't put in effort in the game, that is well within my rights. All of us played a part in our loss and I didn't blame anyone solely for it. But, yeah, you just pull that out and say that.

[Tammy]

Because this is a community that plays together a lot, and I don't think that you're aware that you take this attitude a lot and it makes it unpleasant? I never said that the loss wasn't part my fault. I said I wasn't able to get you guys lynched, which is me accepting my part in the loss; I just felt good about my reads being accurate, and you immediately trashed that which was rather odd and rude.

[Tammy]

@Tammy - I'm really sorry I made the game unenjoyable for you. Please understand that I only did it because I was aiming to win. I've noticed that people with your stream-of-consciousness style tend to read really town, but they can be compromised if you upset and irritate them. Thus it makes any case they put up against me look like emotion-based reaction rather then a good case. And I think I pulled it off this game. I honestly thought that Slaxx was more lynchable because of the weird tracker worry. I was more trying to discredit you than lynch you but you refused to backoff your slaxx townread so eh..

Again I apologize for angering you, but strategy took precedence. No hard feelings?

You were evil, so you were doing what you had to do. Of course no hard feelings. I'd probably want to still punch you right now if you were town, but you weren't so it's all good.

It was a bit of a learning experience anyway. If I would have been able to stop my growing frustration with you, then I maybe would have been able to convince others. It's something for me to work on.