Mini 1501: We're On A Boat! (END?! results inside)

[Plum]

VOTE: CDL

Yo mister.

Not sure how to feel about miller claim.

Seen it legit before; seen it used as a scum gambit before.

Yup.

Miller claims are absolutely null and wifom.

The fuck they are.

Parrrdon?

Not super impressed by notscience. No, not good. Actually really bad scummy. UNVOTE: VOTE: notscience Whole we're at it:

So, reads thus far

CDB Town because he really did a nice job getting us out of RVS and he's been p transparent thus far, and I liked his miller reaction

Aero Scum for sheeping and running someone up to L-1 before everyone has even checked in, let alone on page 2.

Brian probs scum for reasons CDB has said, but by no means should get lynched before everyone's even checked in.

Aero scum for voting Brian L-1/Brian probs scum? Really? CDB/notscience doesn't look like buddies (notscience buddying though? Yea verily could be, as they say), not that that means much at this stage, but still. I initially read CDB's posts in the wake of the Miller claim as showily badgering people about their reactions, but whatever.

That said, everyone including YYR who reads this as a dichotomy between legit Miller/scum who got antsy at a Page 1 wagon . . . what? Seriously? SpyreX, what, no. Durrr. CDB is absolutely correct that if it's a scum gambit, it was planned as his entry post.

@aeronaut: The difference is that notscience made the vote after clearly participating in the discussion. You made your vote upon your entrance.

That's why I'm far more suspicious of notscience than Aero, to be honest.

Not at all, my last name is Smith, therefore the nickname Smudger, which is a general nick name given to Smiths in the British armed forces, and my wife's last name is Miller... Why so serious so early off the bat Channel?

As for a Miller in this game, well have never played in a game with one, question is it a miller or is it another PR with a win condition that means it must lynch?

...

I sincerely hope you're joking. The fact that you said that is pretty much the only thing keeping me from voting you, and I feel dirty saying that.

You do realize there is barely any pressure on you at all, right? Why are you defending so hard?

Finally, an emoticon for all my needs.

Three acceptances of he Miller claim as legit in a row. Huh. Personally am of the Llamafluff school of first-post Miller claims, and there are a good few I'd lynch before Brian on scumminess merit.

Smudger #95 is just badnews all around. The weakest stab at notscience followed by jumping onto notscience's Aero wagon followed by the weakest 'doubt your claim/am taking the opinions that it's legit into account/I literally have not said anything stronger about the Miller claim all game tralala' NOPE.

Vote: Kaze

I'm pretty sold on Brian Skies's claim at this point.

What exactly changed your mind here? Since you last responded to me, you still seemed unsure of your position on Brian. And he hasn't done anything as far as I can see that could possibly change your mind. The only thing I did see was two other townies solidify their read on Brian as town, and this looks like you're just following them along.

(Kaz's is by far the shadiest verbal expression of belief in Brian's Miller claim here).

I'm entertaining the idea of lynching Garmr for lols if anyone else is in

Because he's a bully and called me a VI

First thing I've seen that reads townish instead of scummish? But Garmr's Town regardless. VOTE: Kaz

[Plum]

SK - notscience leaning scum. Close third behind Kaz and Smudger.

Kaz - I see 'Miller claims aren't just null and WIFOM, even though I'm not sure about this one yet and I've seen this both from legit Town and gambiting scum'. Which fair enough? No bloody textual clue from as to why you believe the claim at the point you said you do, really.

Smudger - the initiation of "is it a miller or is it another PR with a win condition that means it must lynch?" as a legitimate question is something I'd be at least mildly surprised to see from scum, and the entrenching thereof is generally odd. Re weakness - unless I'm missing an implication here about notscience's need to

reiterate

his positions, I'm unimpressed. It's weak to say 'interesting that you state your reads early' and drop it, especially when you had no posts of substance to that point - and leapt onto the wagon notscience launched in your next breath.

[Plum]

CTD - re Brian as Town: I have a vague notion that %scum who claim Miller first post in a game/total scum vs. %Millers who claim Miller first post/total Millers comes out with a ratio that's at least similar to scum:Town ratio on its own. I might be totally off base, but it's enough that I'm inclined to try to read them as I would players in general. I might be unconsciously biased to find it more Townien than I'm laying out in the nice clear-cut theory of it, because I'm probably giving Brian more than he deserves - his play is meh at best. It's actually pretty reactive - focusing on deflecting things that aren't hugely important and doing stuff like commenting back to fferylt that he doesn't find Townread-gathering scummy. Is anyone even voting him currently that he's still inundated with minutinae of defense and clearing up stuff? Now's the time to do stuff.

Spy, though . . . I really don't know, and I'm always paranoid about Spy and paranoid about my paranoia in turn. I don't read him as defending Brian per se - I'd be pretty surprised if they're scumbuddies, honestly - but there's a very odd angle on it (or maybe I just don't have a mental schematic for scum claiming Miller in response to an RVS wagon and can't fathom why Spy would) and a willingness to spend time ruminating on it. For all he talks big about Aero/SK he doesn't try to affect the situation. He leaves himself a lot of wiggle room about a wagon I thought was complete crud and still am having trouble sorting out signal from noise on because it felt so bad. There's a posture of commitment and confidence but the wagon comes and goes. Uch.

You need to calm down.

The game is at a lull, I've contributed and scumhunted more that the majority of you.

If you ask me, my vote on him is not unfounded. I'd love to see him talk. Hell, I'd prefer it if he were L-1 so I could get some good reactions. Alas, all the reactions I'm getting are from you, and that's okay too.

But despite you flailing your arms around and crying at me for having my vote on a lurker, I suppose I have to agree my vote really does nothing right now since Maestro isn't responding.

Unvote

Wow what. So eager to tell us you've scumhunted so bloody much and . . . you don't pursue anything besides making your vote even MORE useless than it was? This looks like appeasement, and, er . . . sigh. Why am I not surprised that some of the SK/Kaze back-and-forth turned out to be chaff? Not a swipe at SK, just. Yeah.

At this point I wouldn't mind everyone not voting for anyone dying (need votecount - unless I'm missing something, that's Spy, Brian, Maestro. Passive in play not just in votes all, too, what a treat!). Preceded by Kaze, for preference. He and Smudge are still the dregs of the terribad Aero wagon.

[Plum]

Do people really even consider OMGUS a scumtell anymore (/again)?

[Plum]

Do people really even consider OMGUS a scumtell anymore (/again)?

Read some recent games and come to your own conclusions?

It was less a serious question than a way of asking what if any relevant information you can find based merely on the fact that Garmr voted you back. You seem to be saying that in itself is an important, relevant fact in your case/stance against Garmr. Uh, really?

I keep getting ninja'd, but still - really?

[Plum]

His vote was clearly influenced by my prior vote on him. He was practically inactive until I voted him. Not only did he get offended, he all of a sudden pegged me as his #1 scumread after I voted him. Convenient, no? How are you not seeing this yourself? Uh, really?

After you goaded him about his suspicions of you without a vote, did maintaining his suspicions and voting you make a difference? Do you think that was alignment indicative?

To be honest, both Chainsawing and OMGUS are things I think are terribad scumtells but they hold a grain of truth. Scum defending someone - not even necessarily a buddy - can look different than Town defending someone. Scum reacting to pressure/a vote by voting the person suspecting them can look different than reactive Town. In this case, Garmr's hypothetical Kaze/ns scumteam is not remotely something I'd bet on at this point. Don't think he felt threatened though, and the argument seems more shortsighted than bad because artificial because manipulative. Kaze's point seems to be more OMGUS is OMGUS and it's a scumtell guys, okay, it's a scumtell.

I'm so bipolar on CDB I can't even decide. I literally read it once and wanted to pull out a shiv then reread it less than an hour later and thought town. I'm HOPING it doesn't come down to that decision.

One thing from you I'm comfortable with - at least this was exactly how I felt when I first caught up. Otherwise: I hate hate hate that you get away with going all the way to SK is Town with such little scrutiny. Pretty much the only concrete scumhunting-related you'd said in the game to that point was

There Will Be Blood, Aero/SK

, and poof. I guess you gave your explanation for the read change but I'll put it this way: If it had been

you

explaining that the Maestro wagon was lazy and investigating those who were voting him and their motives, I'd have a

drastically

different opinion of you.

Garmr 3395 is super really Town. Fferylt's determined dissection of his Kaze vote is worthy of respect.

Lolwagons, you give me hope for humanity.

#335> All I see from spyrex is a list of townreads and opinions on lurkers who haven't done anything, in addition to joining the biggest wagon. I'm not sold.

G-d bless.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: SpyreX

I think this is a wagon that can and should go today.

[Plum]

After you goaded him about his suspicions of you without a vote, did maintaining his suspicions and voting you make a difference? Do you think that was alignment indicative?

Not the vote, necessarily. The fact that he started in on me after I voted him was clearly reactive. His vote was escalation.

Meh, duly noted.

- If Brian is scum, I don't think he came up with the miller strat all on his own as he seems to be a newer player. My guess is that, if he's scum, a more experienced player suggested the claim to him and coached him on how to do it ahead of time.

Brian: I don't like the presentation of the miller claim in #12 with the "look elsewhere" bit on a gut level mostly because it does feel like he's coming into the thread hoping that the ensuing attention on his claim goes away. The main thing that bothers me, though, is that it feels like he's laying the martyr act way to thick -- all throughout his ISO, there's plenty of mentions about how he's ok with being lynched / killed (notable examples include: #18, #43, end of #347). It almost feels like a WIFOMy dare to get him lynched.

And he was coached to that degree of detail, say you?

I'm assuming since you've been himmin and hawwin and finally voted I'm scum - but I actually did say Maestro was lazy way back in the before times as well. When Sk was starting but before he had truly committed to showing against Kaze's attitude about it.

Even better though - what's the scum Angle? Trading a 180 in a game where the wolves are salivating for any excuse for nonsense (see this power wagon) in order to...secure a D1 lynch on Kaze? Whom all your compatriots seem to think is my scum bro? Which, by the nature of 180'ing on wouldn't even give me that sweet town cred?

I'm rusty, I'm not pants-on-head stupid. I 180'd because it warranted a 180.

You mentioned purging Maestro by fire being a lazy thing 'for the moment'. In passing. While you didn't have a vote on anyone. That is not at all the same thing as instigating discussion about the Maestro wagon and the motives/utility of the votes on him. I gave that as an example of lack of scumhunting investment. Your mention of the Maestro option being lazy isn't, and such investment is all but completely absent from your initial play.

No, you didn't do a 180 for the purpose of saving Kaze; that thought never occurred to me and the notion is absurd. It will save you if anyone - you may be under scrutiny for the 180, but less, I suspect, than if you were currently supporting an SK lynch, with or without a vote. But I'll always dance the dance with you, Spy : Why didn't you vote Aero in the first place?

Plum- Probsscum. Why? "Man notscience is so scummy" and doesn't link to any reasonings why I was scum, but it's fine because he swapped his vote at the end of the post so it's un-VCA'able!

I guess I see why you might say this; it is a tendency I have when I have a largish block to catch up on to vote multiple times along the readthrough. I didn't fill out formally the full reasons for wanting to vote you at that point - if you had been my top votechoice by the end I expect I would have, and done a more thorough overall look at you as well. I did note my dissatisfaction and disbelief at your Aero vote, which was what mainly felt scumy from you at that point in the reread. To fill it out more fully: I didn't at all like the Aero wagon and your vote on him for putting Brian at L-1 seemed to bald and too easy. Perfunctory 'voted dude to L-1 on page 2 before everyone's even posted = votable, I can vote this dude for this reason' without considering or examining the relationship of the behavior to a scum mindset. Biased by my impression that it

wasn't

related to a scum mindset on Aero's part - too large risk of extreme attention for little enough reward, really. Coupled with the equally bland read post that followed shortly. But you didn't turn out to be the scummiest overall up to the point of me catching up.

[Plum]

EBWOP: Also, I'm a girl

[Plum]

Sorry, prodded, busy weekend. Catching up ASAP.

[Plum]

Spy - I rarely if ever like to make strong assumptions about buddies Day 1. I don't have a strong assumption on you/Kaze buddies or not. It's more than plausible enough to to make me feel like it's not worth not voting one of you because I think the other one is scum and you

can't

be buddies.

As for not voting Aero its almost like I said why back then. The wagon didn't need "steam" - it needed the opposite, in fact. It needed to not be in a position where a hero speedballed it out of control without other things happening or a teehee self hammer. And, of course, its kind of hard to hammer from on a wagon.

Uh huh. And in Post #183 when you reaffirm that you definitely want Aero/SK lynched, there was a grand total of

one vote on SK

.

Seriously. Seriously.

I can see why the neighborhood would make town-NotSci freaking paranoid.

Except he wasn't - until there was a wagon.

Meh, people questioning unearned (or seemingly unearned) townreads on themselves usually reads Townish to me, and in this scenario NS reads that way to me. And paranoia about your Neighbor buddying up to you is pretty valid, as that's probably the more likely scum approach by far. That said, not sure what this says about you. Town-town Neighborhoods probably are considerably more common, but not sure that it's to the point that someone being a Neighbor brings the chances of being Town above baseline. If you made your statement about that belief about the ratios to NS before Day 1 started, though, seems kinda null on you in and of itself.

But, the post is squiffy. With the phrase "entirely too coincidental", he suggests that Brian's miller claim is a direct result of the RVS lolwagon, but votes Aeronaut.

Hmm. Time to reevaluate. Initially I read his vote as the most innocuous on the Aero wagon because he seemed like the player most likely to legitimately miss the issue of the blatant, attention-grabbing vote being potentially super counterproductive for scum without enough benefit. And Post #145 seemed very good at the time. Just a quick ISO. Meh. Torn between the observation on Kaze not going after (+townreading) Spy being good thinking and him not having a vote or scumread or producing anything else of value. The one good

and

proactive bit to my mind was the Kaze vote.

[Plum]

Sorry for the sparse activity. I've been super busy and stressed with school. Going to do my best tonight.

Thats not what I'm getting at. If me changing my vote is suspect why would I do it as scum? If I'm scum, every interaction is for a reason. There isn't a good one there because I'm not.

Your previous strategy of sitting back and calling for a not-too-distant-future SK lynching was obviously less tenable than a 180. It doesn't make your tee-hee avoidance of voting SK or doing anything to progress the game to the point of your vote switch more acceptable, especially when your stated reason - that the wagon had too much steam as it was - wasn't relevant. The sort of position you took on the Aero/SK wagon was easily able to be abused according to gameflow. I thought the Aero wagon was bad and based on very shallow reasoning. That sort of early wagon with that sort of player could become a viable Day 1 lynch or become completely unviable as a target. Voting changes the way a wagon works and moves, and how you're held accountable for wagon flow and shift over time. You set up an opportunistic approach while avoiding scumhunting or progressing the game. That's a tactic. And that's scummy.

And your underlined... what? The 'baseline' is already in swing of a random player being town - I make reference to that being a general default. The 'baseline' of Neighborhoods is, by a margin, more likely to be town. Enough that I'm willing to roll with it until otherwise proven. Like this game.

Being in a Neighborhood correlates with being Town. Being in a mini Normal definitely correlates with being Town. I'm not so sure that the first is a significantly stronger correlation than the second. But:

Because I initially wanted to try and keep it a secret but then paranoia got the better of me.

Wait wait. I read the thing that tripped the switch given prior paranoia was the called Townread of you (along with a bunch of others). Am I reading right here?

Plum, any reads on someone not named Spyrex?

Ask and ye shall receive. Glad I have time for this tonight/no motivation to study for my molecular genetics exam.

Brian issues:

Also, I forgot to mention YYR. I could be hypocritical and say he's scummy for the reasoning you provided. Considering how I've been playing this game, I owe it to him to at least come in, defend himself, and make a case for himself being town. But by PoE, he's not looking too good at all right now.

First time he mentioned YYR. Whaaaaat. Does this even make any sense??? And he says he likes Empire's points against

@SK: That hurts my feelings a bit. But if town can find the scumteam off my death, then so be it. You already have my claim, so town can just lynch away.

Also, of the players not in my townpile, this is the one I'm most comfortable with voting right now:

VOTE: CDB

It pings the gut.

First sentence seems full of 'I don't care about being lynched! Really! That's how you know I'm really Town and you shouldn't lynch me!', especially since he's not done much if any scumhunting off his own wagon. The CDB vote is really weird. It's not a wagon likely to happen, so it almost looks like his first priority with it isn't self-preservation. But it's not only lazy, it's not something that's going to progress the game, not only because of where the lone vote is placed, but because 'pings the gut' won't make anyone say anything. Except this. Basically, what could he realistically expect it to achieve besides getting people off his back about not voting?

Speaking of, Empire came in with a whole bunch of reads but now he has no scumread he's even comfortable placing a vote on? Seriously? He's got a list of Townreads a mile long he's apparently wedded to, though. Oh yeah.

CDB himself has pretty much had no suspects outside of Brian and pretty limited contributions overall, muddling around with null reads and coasting on fairly low-risk, low-attention interactions.

[Plum]

In case it's not clear, I meant the called Townread

in the thread

and I know what you said in your qt. Just want to ask NS here.

[Plum]

I had a weird Townread on him to start. I felt his vote on the Aero wagon was perhaps less objectionable than most others (maybe this has too much to do with expectations of a player to see or not see that a wagon is shallow?) and his point and vote on Kaze were original, pithy, and relevant. All the rest was pretty meh and the fact that I didn't object was probably due to those expectations and early read as Town (and fferylt's point about how he called the initial Brian wagon 'too coincidental' when he voted Aero is good reason to reconsider that feeling as well). Hopefully having a new player in the slot will help me refocus.

[Plum]

Sorry for the inactivity. Didn't manage to get a post in Friday afternoon, Friday night/Saturdays always bad for me because Jewish Sabbath. Aaaaaanyway.

Plum, thoughts on Brian lynch?

Better than YYR/Grimgroove (have skimmed ahead); Brian is somewhat scummier to my reading (esp. given Grimgroove reads Townish to me). May be the best viable option, especially given that the chances of him looking much better and not being a constant is-he-or-isn't-he debate as the game goes on don't seem particularly high, either.

Pretty meh on Peabody, to be honest. Grimgroove feels great - high, but super proactive in a catchup read. His scumhunting drive feels pretty convincing. It's something that feels lacking in Peabody's. Peabody asks a few questions little conviction; he notes a lot of people, often in the form of questions, but I'm not sure what he thinks of anyone but the couple of people (fferylt and SK, surprise surprise) he thinks look at least a little Town.

You don't seem too upset the wagon youre on isnt taking off anymore. Has anything changed about your read?

Not particularly, though I don't feel extremely confident about this game overall. I certainly didn't have time or energy this past week to do a very hard push. I really don't like the notion that a strong player shouldn't be lynched early because his scumhunting could pay dividends. The longer a strong player stays alive the more he can do for his team, but that goes whether he's Town or not; a strong scum player alive Day 3 and 4 in a game like this can be a very very dangerous beast. I didn't say much against it at the time - somewhat demoralized, I guess, and a difference of opinion that was rooted in a theory disagreement seemed unlikely to sway fferylt, for instance. I thought the wagon might yet have something in it. That's certainly not the case now. Blah.

Going back over stuff, Peabody's second post of catching up is more of the same.

I don't want to waste our Day 1 lynch on a miller claim. It robs us of information for day 2. Scum can easily pass on "Yeah, this lynch should happen," instead of contributing in a meaningful way.

Also, also,

this

. Peabody, do you have a read on Brian? Have you tried to read him? At all? Your catchup notes list him once, and that's to say you're ignoring the Miller claim in reading him. Passing on trying to read him given the situation seems like even less meaningful contribution and much less accountability than the situation you describe.

I did some reminiscing about the good old days and realized that I actually replaced into a game with Spyrex and Plum once (the latter being part of a hydra) where they were both scum and I correctly read the former and was completely snowed by the latter. I'll try to find the time to reread it. Did a very cursory glance of the two games Empire linked and don't feel confident in forming a full meta yet.

I remember that game! I actually reread it around when I came back to the site shortly before this game because of the fond memories

Klaxons here - Blank 'explanation questions' on are the easiest to ask. Scum prefer them.

^5

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Peabody

[Plum]

o/ woo jewish

Supa Jewish yo.

Ugh, I just read a lot of information in a short amount of time. My reads require some isos, but I'm pretty confident in these town reads: Fferylt, SK, Plum, CTD.

People who are surprised, raise your hands.

I didn't say much against it at the time - somewhat demoralized, I guess, and a difference of opinion that was rooted in a theory disagreement seemed unlikely to sway fferylt, for instance.

You might be surprised. At any rate, should he getto day 3 with little in the way of results, it should be a red flag for whatever town players are in the game at that point.

I hope so. One of the things a strong player can in theory do better as scum is worm a way out of such things. I guess not much more will come of this specifically today, but noting it for the future greatly increases the chances this mindset is properly taken into account.

88 I just noticed a crumb here. I might be wrong, as I don't see scum trying to bait a CC to the neighbor role to pull that shit on a scumbuddy (but if I go into this more I'll wifom myself to death)

Confused what you mean by this - could you reword it or something?

CDB, - What's wrong with pushing things I think look weird? I will admit that I am pressured to push something but I personally think the SK coaching thing is good to push if I were to push anything at this point without my iso analysis.

Whut. You make long, neat, link-filled posts debating with one of your Townreads about something that doesn't have bearing on the scumreads you're purportedly working on. Yeah. Great.

Oh I should of mentioned those reads are in order. You moved down to scum number two.

... If there's one thing I loathe, it's reads lists with very slight changes that don't have bearing on the poster's approach to the game (e.g. votes, pressure) presented as content. Garmr, what are you doing/why does this matter?

Liking both SpyreX and fferyllt as obvious town, already after 6 pages. The 133 and 135 really made me sorry I wasn't there at the time. Would love to become part of their town-affair and form some kind of love-triangle. I had the EXACT same thoughts as fferyllt in 133 when reading that discussion, and had the EXACT same feelings as Spyrex in 135. Beautiful.

Are we even reading the same game? Cause every joke post of his made me want to lynch him a little more.

Plum, how is Grimgroove "super proactive in a catchup read"? Even 4 days in, his catchup read doesn't seem to have advanced past page 10. And what about his scumhunting drive feels convincing to you? At the time of your assessment, he had a grossly hyperbolic case against Kaze and a bit of OMGUS right out of DGB's book of scum. I saw a drive to put on a show rather than a drive to scumhunt.

His initial page or so - drugged up though it all sounded - felt like someone with no information enthusiastically reading and commenting on the game. The joke posts themselves didn't seem to me very indicative of alignment, but the posts against Kaze certainly felt like this. The more recent, formal stuff is a whole different kettle of worms. It lacks the brash, confident, non-appeasatory approach - in fact, it feels like the effort went into being appeasatory at the cost of being useful overall. It's very bogged down in is-it-or-isn't-it minutiae and covering every possible base and every possible page and making sure to update his readlist every time. In this it seems I agree with you - past the time I posted, Grimgroove's stuff has indeed looked considerably scummier.

Need to eat, try to clear my head, hopefully see what LolWagons and Empire have to say. Spy too, for that matter.

[Plum]

I don't see why scum wouldn't crumb per se (not sure what there is to lose, for one thing), but that does clarify what you meant, thanks.

[Plum]

Plum, what happened to you Kaze read in between your initial vote and the Peabody vote? Also what your current read on CDB and why?

I still generally felt like Kaze was scummy. SpyreX's vote on him - and his case, which to me didn't feel more Townish to me than the rest of his play - made me want to hold back from rehashing it for the time being, and the reads of players like fferylt and Empire - who took Kaze's play as abrasive and/or chaotic in a way less likely to come from scum - made me doubt my own take on it (that Kaze was opportunistic-scummy &c.) somewhat.

[Plum]

Screw this. Brian's not going to lurk through the end of the Day and live.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Brian Skies

[Plum]

Plum has a booboo cuz I don't townread him apparently Funny how you would say I'm appeasing when that's the exact thing I didn't do with you.

No, try again.

Is anyone even voting him currently that he's still inundated with minutinae of defense and clearing up stuff?

It's the second time I see you mention that, as you already used it against me.
What is your problem with minutinae? Why is it scummy to approach the game in such a way? You realize we're talking playstyle here, right?

My problem was that he was focusing entirely on defense and responses instead of proactive scumhunting and related activities at a time when he was under little enough pressure that I would have expected he had enough time/resources to do so. I felt that the things he was responding to were trivial enough to question why we were seeing almost only defense-response from him at all.

[Plum]

@Plum: You shouldn't discriminate against me based on lurking (which I'm not doing, but if you disagree then it's whatever) when other players are showing the same signs of inactivity.

Nice try. The only player remotely on your level in this respect is Garmr.

You're lurking and now active lurking right up until deadline where we don't have a strong wagon or strong consensus, but where you're the closest thing we have to a viable lynch. You are not trying to hunt, you are not trying to leave reads or information for posterity, you are just. Avoiding. Making it harder to get consensus or a lynch together at all, including on you.

[Plum]

Brian - The idea that you didn't understand what I was getting at - that lurking close to deadline, especially when there's lack of consensus and drive in the Town,

especially

when you're the potential lynch, is specifically scummy, and that, moreover, only Garmr's lurking was nearly as egregious as yours in regards to prod dodging and/or minimal posting like a champ as deadline approached.

I'm not sure what to make of Brian's latest posting, to be honest. I don't feel that the SK vote was particularly indicative; optimal play for Town or scum is likely to be voting Empire as of his big post o' reads; sorting it out either way is a barrel of WIFOM.

[Plum]

Whats your read on empire

Uch. Leaning Town a bit now actually.

Honestly, at this point, I'm getting increasingly paranoid that someone who's actually good at scum is just styling over my ability to read this game but I don't have the time to read more closely.

The combination of annoyance at personal and game stagnation leading to paranoia feels genuine here. Fferylt has a very meta-based read; I see what her perspective is but it doesn't do much for me.

[Plum]

Hell yes.

Let's see, quick look at Empire, plus votecounts and other stuff as necessary.

Spoiler: Empire on YYR/Grimgroove and Grimgroove/YYR on Maestro/Empire

Lists him under scum initially but never votes him.

YYR: Very weak read here, but I didn't like his cursory mention of the miller claim when he entered the thread in #57. Aside from that, the attacks he's given on Kaze just feels like he's hitting things that look bad on the surface but not aren't actually scummy. Still waiting on more content from him though.

ffery's case is probably a way more eloquent explanation of what pinged me about YYR but the dude's getting replaced so hopefully there will be more data from that slot.

Jesus christ, I just read through Grimgroove's posting on page 29 and what the actual fuck did I just read?

YYR was under potential pressure from the time Empire replaced in (pretty sure YYR replaced out only slightly afterwards. Checking, CTD had a vote on YYR at the time Empire posted his reads/catchup thing and voted, when I think the Spy had two votes).

Didn't get much out of the catchup. I'm still not getting where everyone is getting a town read on Brian. The SK/Smudger back and forth made me a bit more comfortable on SK, but I kind of just skimmed through Smudger's post. Still like my vote where it is.

What do you think about the Maestro wagon?

Lack of contribution is certainly anti-town, but it doesn't feel scummy unless the guy has a history of it as scum. Feels like a safe wagon especially when pressure didn't seem to work last time.

Do you feel that way about all of the votes?

Yes. None of them look like they're going to commit to that wagon for the long term simply because Maestro hasn't done anything. Someone who's on the wagon is free to correct me.

Maestro was neither, I was genuinely surprised when I saw his "waaaaat"-post. Felt like a post of some out-of-game-observer.

Empire (still no read at this point, so he still is an option)

I'll read up on Empire specifically now. Spyrex and fferyllt pulling it gives me faith.

@ferryllt: my lynchpool is SleepyKrew - Plum - Empire and given his behavior from last night, well, I can't say I'm liking Brian all that much anymore. But SleepyKrew is on his wagon, which gives me enormous pause, and somehow I would understand that a miller is demotivated at a stage like this.

I've just ISO'd Empire and I have to say: it's difficult not to be impressed.

I don't see what you mean by him not scumhunting or townhunting. 423 blew me off my socks in that regard. The level of analysis shown there is just how I would like to have done it.

And in 411 he provided a perspective on the miller claim I hadn't even considered before: pre-game scum QT-talk. It's true, scum could have devided this plan, and who better to perform it than Brian Skies, the newbie nobody will suspect of having thought of such a thing?

I can't see Empire-scum. I'm looking at Lolwagons' and Spyrex' ISO now to see what case he's got against him, but from what I've seen Empire did attack Spyrex, making the latter's vote suddenyl look quite opportunistic. This could be a blitzwagon, with a lack of town-consensus, that Spyrex is trying to force through on character rather than on argument.

It appears I inadvertently entered the Champions League by joining in this game. Slowly starting to feel this is all going over my head.

That said: I prefer a Brian-lynch over an Empire-lynch right now. 411 is an eye-opener and Brian's latest behavior fits that scenario perfectly.

[regarding the late wagon on Empire]

Empire, no, not feeling it, sorry, you'll have to look elsewhere for support for that one.

Spoiler: Empire on CDB and CDB on Maestro/Empire

Empire lists CDB under null initially.

CDB: Liked his entry into the game as that seems consistent with what I remember of his early game play as town, but the fade out really worries me as I know he has a tendency to get lurky / inactive as scum. Expecting more content to hopefully make the slot more readable.

There's a back-and-forth between them about scum taking a stance or avoiding it on hypothetical scumflipped-Brian.

I was kinda getting the urge to vote CDB because a lot of his reasoning for townreading / suspecting notscience and Peabody in particular seemed really fake but the self deprecation bits in posts like #689 sound genuine and I'm fairly sure I've seen him be apathetic like this as town before but I'd need to double check (also minor thing, but I liked that he felt the need to continue posting during his sleeping hours as I don't really think he'd give anywhere near as much of a shit as scum).

I had a good town bloc forming and started to hone in on some suspects but it's hard to do that when they're not even there for me to sort out.

YYR was in your scumlist, so that's excused
But suspect

S

?
Only other person that hasn't been here is Kazeslot
You had Kaze as town
So when did you try to hone in on him?

I'm not talking about replacements only, you know (it's been a while, but I was thinking of YYR / CDB / Brian when I posted way back when...the latter two definitely felt like they haven't been around much at any rate).

CDB on Empire:

Thoughts on the attempted Maestro wagons?

It helped show me that Kaze is town, which is nice, though I never would have joined it myself. I had Maestro down as firmly null while he was here; Empire seems promising so far.

Thoughts on the leading wagon (SpyreX)?

Chewing on it. This is either my first time playing with him or my first time in a long, long time. Empire's post was well argued but I saw enough in Spyrex's response not to jump on it yet. By reputation, I don't want us to mislynch Spyrex on Day 1 if we can avoid it so I'm probably more likely to see reasons to keep him alive than I am to lynch him, I suppose.

[the exchange noted above]

If Brian flips scum, we get to see how partners reacted to his miller claim. In that instance, I think Kaze broadly avoiding taking a stance on it, as observed by Spyrex a couple of pages ago, might be useful as a buddy indicator.

Do you really think that's a thing? I think buddies of a scummillerfakeclaim would be more inclined to at least say something about it rather than avoid it altogether (it's probably a bit of really pretentious half baked theory, but I'm thinking pregame deliberated actions like that would compel scum to say something because it gives them an easy way to enter the game).

Depends whether or not it was premeditated - I dunno if the scum got a chance to discuss it among themselves before gamestart. But, yes, I do think it's a thing.

Spoiler: Empire on CTD, CTD on Maestro/Empire

- Brian / CTD are unlikely to be scum together given the strong policy-type push from the latter in the early game (wouldn't make sense for CTDscum to agree to the claim only to strongly push a lynch on him early, especially given the site's general antipathy towards miller claims - he's be committing to a hardbus too early).

CTD: Reading him as town mostly because I think he's playing differently than from what I saw of his scum play in /in-vitational 12. In that game, his votes lacked conviction as he placed them on all of the major wagons of the time with weak / lazy reasoning and he seemed more concerned with following the crowd. The votes he's placed this game have a lot more meat to them and him being shocked early on that people are believing Brian's miller claim wholesale is something I don't really expect from his scum game -- I'd have expected him to drop the issue entirely and move onto something else, not continue to pressure Brian. Need to do a full-on meta check here too, though, as I know he plays a very strong game as scum and I don't remember having read his town games too deeply.

And CTD's stuff himself:

I also empathize with a desire to get Maestro to contribute, but I think those votes would be much better served on the people who are contributing without any noticeable intent of moving the game forward, namely Brian Skies and Smudger.

I still sincerely doubt that this budding Maestro wagon is a productive use of votes.

I still didn't move my vote. Even though Empire is probably scum, Kaze is still the better lynch.

Why is Empire scum?

He questions Kaze (I think voting Empire and the only one doing so for a good chunk of the Day) after disputing something Kaze said against Empire's stuff:

Secondly, is this the only issue you have with Empire's analysis?

Nope. I'm not playing speak and spell. If you dont see why I think he's scum from a post you are quoting you're either being willfully obtuse or *gasp* dont care enough to look. Its almost like its a trend.

Don't give me that crap. I hate it when people play "I see something that you don't see" in mafia. All you've had to say about Maestro is that he's lazy and needs to "step up or die". That's awfully thin reasoning to say that Empire is "probably scum", particularly when the "lazyness" in question on Maestro's part has resulted in dropping out.

In the one game I played with Empire, I found him to be very transparently town, and I'm gonna wait and see if that shines through in this game as well before I put much thought into reading him.

Did a very cursory glance of the two games Empire linked and don't feel confident in forming a full meta yet.

Don't have the energy right now to look through SK's ISO and ponder how likely it is that a Maestro buddy would criticized the early mini-wagon on him so vocally (among other potential issues that don't come to mind so readily), but. The above are roughly in the order I find them suspect based on how they related to Maestro and Empire and vice versa.

VOTE: Grimgroove

[Plum]

One thing that jumps to mind is Plum's response to my concerns about Empire and misgivings about the Brian wagon as mere meta cases or some such.

I don't recall responding specifically to any of your misgivings about the Brian wagon. The weight of your concerns about Empire towards the end of the Day seemed to focus on your previous experience of him in a game where you were scum and he was scary-to-you Town and much more proactive/aggressive than he'd been playing; the way you brought it up was both in line with similar lines of inquiry from you throughout the Day and naturally prompted in the course of analysis on your part. But the disagreement about what actually went down in the game you cited seemed natural on both sides; I felt that Town or scum, Empire genuinely remembered the game that way (and you also genuinely remembered the game that way) and furthermore that I had no strong feeling that either he was lying or that the example went exactly as you said rather than fall somewhere in the middle of the he-said-she-said.

Garmr's post looks like a 'congratulating the doctor' tell.

This was exactly my thought process

Meh, I've been tempted to post things that would trip that so-called tell as both Town and scum, and personally refrained as all alignments because of the way it's perceived. I feel it's reflective of Garmr's odd filter more than anything.

Empire on CDB and CDB on Maestro/Empire

What about this interaction makes you think they're scum buddies?

CDB was under mild potential pressure throughout the Day; Empire repeatedly expressed mild suspicion of him a couple of times and said that he'd check up on him to try to get a read on him, but never got around to it. CDB called Empire 'promising' but also didn't touch him and remained on Brian all Day (lurking through deadline didn't help my general opinion of him, either - his IRL busyness is plausible, but dude didn't even mention that he'd be missing deadline?).

I don't have much else to add at this point, apart from the fact that Plum's effort in 1031 rings town to me, though I'd like to hear more about her pre-selection process when lifiting out those three.

Working on the assumption that the Emp wagon was all Town; I think it's a worthwhile assumption. The Kaze/Peabody slot is obviously not scum with Empire if you read the interactions and votecounts. I'd guess that the chances that Empire put no scumbuddies outside of Town on his initial reads post is fairly low, leading to strong scrutiny of the YYR/Grimgroove slot (listed as scum, but never pursued) and CDB (listed as null and occasionally poked at thereafter but also never pursued; both could have been pushed yesterday but didn't end up wagoned, and Empire also refrained from pushing them. CTD stood out for being mildly antagonistic towards the Maestro wagon and trying to get votes off it. It was neither as prominent a position as SK's not as inquisitve; it was basically just 'don't vote Maestro; I empathize with you guys but you should vote somewhere else'. That seems a more likely scummy position to me than SK's, though I do mean to look at that more - maybe later tonight, maybe tomorrow. CTD was minimally discussed by Empire yesterday (though he also was minimally pressured); not indicative of very much, but doesn't give any pause to my feelings about how CTD related to the Maestro wagon.

Plum, then. Around this time, she seems to be largely ignoring Maestro but includes him in a pretty passive list of basically 'people who can die, I guess', which I think is more likely to come from a buddy than not. I find her vote on Grimgroove a bit weird, as he looks fairly solidly town due to sheer volume of input and heart, and there are also a couple of other posts which I noted down though are mostly seen through confirmation bias, I suspect. Of everything, she seems like the vote I can least argue with at the moment.

See above for my expanded feelings about Grimgroove; I see you have a read on him independent of his relationship with Empire; mine is rooted substantially in it. You yourself commented none on the Maestro wagon at all until after the fact and didn't do anything much to read Empire after he replaced in.

[Plum]

Bandwagon analysis and 0 last night doesn't help it much.

Wow. That wasn't what I expected at all.

No, but unlike you I wasn't there at the time - unless you're accusing me of strategically being busy sitewide - but I didn't ignore it when I got back, as Skrew and I discussed it in relation to Kaze at least.

I must've misremembered when your lack of activity was V/LA and when it wasn't and you begged pardon.

@CTD

- I hear what you're saying. May try to reread it again in better context at some point; it's not my first priority, not least because of the three players who initially struck me as plausible Emp buddies given interactions, you're the only one I consistently had a Townread on yesterday.

This response to empire makes me curious. This was obviously a

empire scum slip

which Everyone seemed to miss except CDB he corrected empire on it in a way that covers it up. Empire responds with this.

I reread this in context, and it seems like Empire's stated position was that scum Miller fakeclaims are premeditated and not done spur-of-the-moment, and that if Brian were scum he expected that to hold true, and that he found Brian scummy. Regardless I don't think that that interaction is scum-CDB covering up for Empire slipping.

So I'm just going to keep prod dodging until I reread yesterday (and do that damn Peabody meta), which might take a few real life days. I'll try to also keep up with the current happenings in the thread in case there's stuff for me to address.

Why? This is a stark contrast to your previous play and attitude.

The nature of the push doesn't sound sincere, and combined with this question, I think you only did it to instill the reaction that you clearly wanted: us thinking you're town for doing something that has no discernable scum motivation behind it.

That doesn't really sound like me. I should be able to find meta examples of me asking things like #1072 as town; I'll have a look.

CDB, as town, talking after the fact about things he did not having scum motivations:

SpyParty Mafia
Balto the Invitational
Gorilla Munch

I could go back further but I can't really be arsed; I think you can get the point that the behaviour is not out of character with my town game.

Nope. UNVOTE:
VOTE: CDB

NS, you've been rather quiet. Why so? You were rereading over Night; what were you looking for?

[Plum]

Nu?

[Plum]

Pre-Shabbat prod dodge

[Plum]

ChannelDelibird, Plum, Peabody, and Spyrex were all prodded.

Prodding is my raison d'etre

I got errors all last night trying to connect to the site. I tried.

I would love for every person in their next post to either vote for NS or explain to me why he's a bad vote - and, by that, I mean why he's town. If you've got another super awesome case on someone, lets do it. Lets quit belaboring and cause some action.

Far from sure he's Town, but pretty sure CDB is a better vote.

[Plum]

CTD - por que?

[Plum]

Is pitoli going to enforce deadline before we get an SK replacement?

[Plum]

ABR, bro of all bros.

Biggest scumreads on Peabody and Grimgroove. Empire is a treasure cove of information, and I'm trying to put all of it into context without reading every single page and post, so this may take a while. Why is CDB on trial, btw?

His relationship with Empire and Empire's predecessor Maestro are quite plausible buddy interactions, which I took a stab at dissecting especially re him, YYR/Grimgroove, and CTD here; with some relevant follow-up material:

Working on the assumption that the Emp wagon was all Town; I think it's a worthwhile assumption. The Kaze/Peabody slot is obviously not scum with Empire if you read the interactions and votecounts. I'd guess that the chances that Empire put no scumbuddies outside of Town on his initial reads post is fairly low, leading to strong scrutiny of the YYR/Grimgroove slot (listed as scum, but never pursued) and CDB (listed as null and occasionally poked at thereafter but also never pursued; both could have been pushed yesterday but didn't end up wagoned, and Empire also refrained from pushing them. CTD stood out for being mildly antagonistic towards the Maestro wagon and trying to get votes off it. It was neither as prominent a position as SK's not as inquisitve; it was basically just 'don't vote Maestro; I empathize with you guys but you should vote somewhere else'. That seems a more likely scummy position to me than SK's, though I do mean to look at that more - maybe later tonight, maybe tomorrow. CTD was minimally discussed by Empire yesterday (though he also was minimally pressured); not indicative of very much, but doesn't give any pause to my feelings about how CTD related to the Maestro wagon.

Then read Post #1072 through Post #1082.

[Plum]

She has a pretty dreadful voting record, the only vote of hers that looks half-way legit in context is the D1 Spyrex vote, and I think she held on to it too long for comfort (read: long past its expiration date), which gives me the impression that she lacks pro-activeness. This is well illustrated by what she did with her vote next, which was a very limp move onto Peabody that looked to be motivated more by a desire to change her vote for want of not looking stagnant rather than an actual act of scumhunting.

You're saying I held onto the SpyreX vote too long - even though notscience was on the wagon and we were anticipating two replacements who might well have voted him - and when I did switch it, it was only to look like I was doing anything? It was reasonably clear to me at the point I voted Peabody that the SpyreX wagon had truly died (notscience switched his vote and so forth), yes. Peabody's initial posting seemed like extensive posturing at substance and engagement trying to mask the fact that his points and questions didn't actually probe scumminess and didn't do anything else. I don't know what felt 'limp' to you about my vote on Peabody - that it was a sense of scumminess at his approach to the game that intensified throughout my post and was sprinkled into a catchup post as opposed to a big damn case? Yeah, I wanted to change my vote, in order not to

be

stagnant.

Her vote on Brian was perhaps the worst of the bunch, she spent a good amount of the early going defending his miller-claim and basically ended up voting him for lurking. She did set the groundwork for a turn-around, and it feels distinctively slimy to me:

Plum, thoughts on Brian lynch?

Better than YYR/Grimgroove (have skimmed ahead); Brian is somewhat scummier to my reading (esp. given Grimgroove reads Townish to me). May be the best viable option, especially given that the chances of him looking much better and not being a constant is-he-or-isn't-he debate as the game goes on don't seem particularly high, either.

Weak language ("somewhat scummier"), only discusses him in relation to Grimgroove, sets him up as "best viable option" for the weird reason of "he's not likely to improve his game".

The most recent votecount at the time of my vote had substantial wagons only on Brian and YYR/Dorcas (and a two-vote wagon on notscience, not someone I wanted lynched at all). My preferred lynch at the time of responding to that, SpyreX, was certainly going nowhere. From the perspective of looking at the most viable choices, the ones I might have to compromise on as deadline approached, Brian was the best of the lot by a small amount in terms of scumminess (I'd certainly never had the sort of town conviction on him like I had in relation to YYR's intial posting, and Grimgroove's initial round of posting looked good); the game utility of offing him was also relevant to me. I didn't think he was likely to be more generally readable, take up less discussion space hashing and rehashing as an issue, or contribute. This compounded with a read on him that was, in a word, mediocre.

I consider lurking through towards deadline scummy. Especially when a lot of the relevant discussion about options and sorting them out has extreme bearing on the person lurking. It is highly anti-Town and I've seen scum do it tactically. I had no desire to see Brian let off as we floundered

because

his inactivity when he clearly had site access kept us floundering. My vote, at that point, was based on conviction, not merely compromise.

Empire interactions look plausibly buddy-ish. Some snide remarks in his direction, but seemingly not a lot of interest in his slot. She ends up "leaning town a bit" on him.

I was wrong, but fair enough from an observational perspective.

Her pushes today simply don't look town motivated to me. I asked her earlier what about the CDB-Empire interaction she considered scummy, and I found her answer to be lacking. I get the impression that went into her day-opening analysis wanting to present 3 viable buddies, rather than having developed three legitimate suspicions. In this context, I find her vote switch to CDB opportunistic. I maintain that the CDB wagon is bad and she is the worst offender.

The three weren't my only possible suspicions, just people who stuck out as plausible enough buddies to focus on and certainly to note down as worthy of attention for that if nothing else. There are a couple I haven't had time to parse further.

CDB's reaction to fferylt and Grimgroove's questioning about his fferylt suspicions spiralled quickly into CDB almost desperately insisting that there was no benefit to him doing such a thing as scum and then further insisting that he'd asked similar questions (to the 'what's the scum motivation') as Town. That is obfuscating the matter and trying to furnish proof out of it that he's Town. Not interested.

[Plum]

Ehhhh, Grimgroove, have you actually looked at what ABR's most recent posts on site are?

[Plum]

All his most recent posts on the site have been in this game.

[Plum]

Not sure how you can say with much conviction that ABR's level of activity is deliberate.

[Plum]

Peabody, I'm fairly sure your slot isn't scum with Empire, but please explain how and why [url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5443135]Post #1283[/url[] isn't an unfathomably bad case? We have one flipped scum. I'm not sure who you suspect besides me, and it's really not indicative that I haven't voted or expressed suspicions of myself

VOTE: Plum

Garmr and Peabody are also good votes today, but my confidence in the Plum vote is highest.

Why? And if it makes you feel any better, I'd have gladly voted ABR at the end of the Day to avoid a no-Lynch, as I worried might be necessary when the school's Wifi refused to work that afternoon, though I still greatly preferred a lynch on your slot.

VOTE: Yates

[Plum]

Welp, that was something worth previewing

[Plum]

The last time I decided I like you, you were scum :/

What can I say? I'm a likeable guy regardless of alignment. Unless I'm hunting you. Right, Plum and Garmr?

So nu, why are you hunting me?

[Plum]

Yates seems pretty inadequate given the game state. Is this your way of asking me for a claim?

[Plum]

A defense against what, exactly? I've said all I think there is to say to CTD's points - if you disagree, kindly point out what, if anything, I should address about his case that you'd find relevant. Peabody is convinced that I'm scum because apparently all the people I've ever suspected in this game are ether flipped Town, people he's Townreading, himself, or 'easy targets'. He manages to make that basically the entire game, which seems to me like a noise/signal interpretation issue on his end. Yates suspects me because I was voting town-Brian at the end of Day 1 and him at the end of Day 2, and was off the ABR wagon, which was also on Town (and would gladly have joined it in the interests of not no-Lynching had my access been cooperative). I can't tell why he mentioned Garmr and Peabody along with me but not, say, Grimgroove or CTD (voting Town at the end of both Days). I am legitimately not sure what his case on me could possibly be, but he's acting like it's a whole lot and making a big deal about how he's hunting me.

[Plum]

Similar play as Town != he doesn't do what he did as scum as well.

Trying to say so

as a defense for what he was doing was itself an attempt to back up the idea that there was no scum motivation for what he was doing (pussyfooting around suspecting you given the way you're regarded by the game at large and the fact that he didn't actually vote you), and I saw sufficient scum motivation in that.

[Plum]

Who do you read as the scum I haven't suspected over the course of the entire game, is my question here.

[Plum]

Are you asking me who I think your possible partner is?

Well, considering that your problem with me is that I've suspected too may townies/your Townreads, maybe it boils down to the same thing. I'm not particularly impressed with your answer, but well.

[Plum]

Plum can you clarify what you were asking me if I didn't answer your question?

You answered it. I still don't find it a very salient line of thought, but if you're convinced that shifting reads in a game that's gone the way this has is a scumtell

and

that everyone I've suspected is Town (when we have a grand total of one scumflip). I don't think there's anything I can point at in my play that will make me not a potential target of your psudeo-POE, and I guess I'll have to accept that for what it is.

You're not scum with Maestro out of a combination of factors: the way Kaze held his vote on Maestro

and

voted Empire with a salient case long before anyone else thought to, trying to derail the SpyreX wagon (assume Spy's not scum with Empire because that's only sensible), and argued strongly against townreads on Empire in relation to his case and vote. Basically, your slot has earned the equivalent level in my mind of those who were on the Emp wagon at the end of Day 1 in terms of unlikeliness of being scum with Emp.

[Plum]

How long have you ignored everything I've asked, hm?

[Plum]

Odd-night Tracker, Tracked Grimgroove to nowhere Night 1.

[Plum]

I had a feeling you'd say that, my friend.

[Plum]

I found him moderately scummy at the time and prayed that if I was right they'd send him to do the kill.

[Plum]

Tre lame.

[Plum]

Check again - I expressed significant reservations about Grim after the initial rush and Peabody vote in a response to CTD after the post you quoted. The null Track didn't change

that

, as you may expect.

[Plum]

Dredged up the relevant material:

Are we even reading the same game? Cause every joke post of his made me want to lynch him a little more.

Plum, how is Grimgroove "super proactive in a catchup read"? Even 4 days in, his catchup read doesn't seem to have advanced past page 10. And what about his scumhunting drive feels convincing to you? At the time of your assessment, he had a grossly hyperbolic case against Kaze and a bit of OMGUS right out of DGB's book of scum. I saw a drive to put on a show rather than a drive to scumhunt.

His initial page or so - drugged up though it all sounded - felt like someone with no information enthusiastically reading and commenting on the game. The joke posts themselves didn't seem to me very indicative of alignment, but the posts against Kaze certainly felt like this. The more recent, formal stuff is a whole different kettle of worms. It lacks the brash, confident, non-appeasatory approach - in fact, it feels like the effort went into being appeasatory at the cost of being useful overall. It's very bogged down in is-it-or-isn't-it minutiae and covering every possible base and every possible page and making sure to update his readlist every time. In this it seems I agree with you - past the time I posted, Grimgroove's stuff has indeed looked considerably scummier.

[Plum]

Mmmmm, trajectory.

[Plum]

Nothing, I just saw you mention it somewhere in MD recently and thought the matter interesting. I wasn't meaning to be nasty or sarcastic about the concept.

[Plum]

Mazal tov.

[Plum]

Not shocked Spyrex was SK. Pretty shocked scum had only two members. I imagine they're not too happy about this game.

Well . . . I did feel distinctly overwhelmed by Day 3, I'll give it that. I didn't play particularly well, but I knew I couldn't bus my Roleblocker to death Day 1 in a 13 player game with a two-member scumteam. I was hoping I'd have Day 2 to work some damage control, try to milk another mislynch or at least get a good counterclaim if Empire were forced to claim. Buying a Day or two was, I thought, my only chance. Day 2 Empire being dead put me in a hole I was almost certain I couldn't come back from, and I didn't. Granted I was all but certain it was a Vig - I don't think I've ever seen SK claiming Vig go smoothly into endgame, and this game was an exception largely because Town expected scum to have been more powerful, it seems. I wish . Not only did my only scumbuddy and only source of Roleblock in a setup rapidly leaning towards having a Cop (and ultimately, for that matter, having a Cop and a Doc) get offed Night 1, but my kill Night 2 didn't even go through! The degree of control scum had on the game fell away in the Day play and also through the setup. Alas, good game all. Spy, well played; like I said, first time I can recall an SK claiming Vig went smoothly.

CTD, excellent case on me. I did my best with it, but you were right in saying that the response was no more than a competent scum could whip up, and it was basically correct for scumminess on many counts.

I was going to say I'm fine with Mafia QT being posted if Empire is, but it already has in the Role PMs, so enjoy, I guess. Hope to draw Town next time, what can I say.