Mini 1642: The Burning (GAME OVER FLAMES HAVE ENGULFED TOWN)

[pieguyn]

i haven't read yet. is there anything I should know that'll affect how I should read things?

[pieguyn]

Pieguhn (hope I spelled that right), have you had time to read into the thread? I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

I've been busy as hell recently so I haven't read yet. I have some free time now, so I'm gonna see how far I get before I pass out.

[pieguyn]

i'm on page 14

town: Formerfish, Cheetory6, MM576, maybe eektor

scum: acryon, TF

I'm seeing a lot of scumreads on MM576. while I 100% agree he's saying a lot of things that are logically incorrect, inconsistent, or deflections, I do not think this is scummy. why? I have one game of experience with him and he demonstrated basically all of these behaviors on a consistent basis, got lynched D1, and was town; so I don't think this kind of play is unusual for him. as for the rest of what he's done, I've seen some minor things I think are more likely to come from town than scum, so I don't feel particularly optimistic about him being scum.

will finish catching up and then fully elaborate on reads

[pieguyn]

can we please let me finish reading before we go lynching anyone

I don't particularly feel optimistic about the Elbirn wagon. I'm still at p24 but I've seen a few things I liked about her play and the way she's reacting to RC is at the very least giving me some additional pause about lynching her.

I think TF is scum. based on the other reads I have at this point, I think he's getting bussed here. I want a chance to fully form/post my reads before anyone gets lynched, since I'm currently feeling pretty good about this.

[pieguyn]

god. at the end of D1 and what the fuck is 647/651?

do not lynch anyone until I finish catching up. I'm fairly sure TF is scum here - that solidified the read for me, but there's a lot more and I don't want to have any risk of someone derphammering before I post it. also, I'm fairly sure the VDA/MM576 wagon split was TvT and scum were divided between the 2 wagons.

[pieguyn]

i am caught up

TOWN (S->W): Cheetory6, FF <gap> MM576 <gap> Boon, Elbirn
SCUM (W->S): acryon, eektor <gap> TF

Cheetory6/FF:

both obvtown; I do have some amount of paranoia about FF, but it's nothing worth pursuing. not really going to bother explaining this unless asked given most ppl seem to agree here.

MM576:

the tl;dr of the MM576 read is that I fully agree that his play isn't remotely helpful; however, overall I find his conviction at various points in the game town and I think some of the stances he took at various points look town once you look past how often he flip flops and contradicts himself (which, as I said before, isn't a scum tell for him). more on this:

Spoiler:

I hate the RVS so I'm not going to vote.

Don't wanna vote your scum buddy as a joke and have it come back to haunt you?

lol yep you got it.

What if this is just really cheeky scum telling the truth?

Is rvs something you always avoid participating in?

no, I'm not scum. No, I don't always avoid it, but it becomes more apparent it is useless every game I play in.

That sounds a lot like something scum would say.

Can you show what games you have avoided rvs?

If you're not going to play serious why play?

I hate the RVS so I'm not going to vote.

Don't wanna vote your scum buddy as a joke and have it come back to haunt you?

lol yep you got it.

What if this is just really cheeky scum telling the truth?

Is rvs something you always avoid participating in?

no, I'm not scum. No, I don't always avoid it, but it becomes more apparent it is useless every game I play in.

I'm confused by that last post of yours? Care to elaborate on what you mean?

Why the focus on me? Do you really find the RVS a necessity to finding scum?

Because I don't like your hop onto the acryon wagon, I don't like how cagey you are being with me. I don't like how I have to ask you the same question multiplettimes to get you to answer. I feel like scum has more to hide by not participating in rvs. Because I am trying to sort you and at the moment I am finding you wanting. Want to dance and be a good dance partner or do I have to start treating you like a hostile witness?

I'm not being cagey. I just think it's silly to make a mountain out of a molehill this early on day 1. If you really think I'm scum then vote away, we'll see if anyone agrees with you.

If you are going to ride Formerfish's coattails the whole game you guys are in trouble. At least when I get lynched and flip town lynch Formerfish next.

first off is that whole shitstorm re: FF. I really like the conviction here. while I can look at it and do think it was a bit of an overreaction, I think in this case it's more likely to come from indignated town whose playstyle is mostly centered around trying to outyell FF and make him look worse as opposed to presenting logic-based arguments. I also think that early game, making strong pushes is the best way to move the game forward and create new content, and I don't think scum would put themselves so far out there so quickly for (as far as I could tell) no reason. I look at this and think it's more likely to come from town who legitimately think they're onto something as opposed to scum pushing any kind of agenda. there are also some parallels here to the previous game I played with him; I can confirm MM tends to dislike when people push more strongly than what he perceives as necessary in RVS, and I can confirm that he does this regardless of how much of a reach his own reasons for pushing people are.

now, this isn't much of a tell on its own, but it is the first part of a long series of posts that I think are more likely to come from a town "I don't care what people think" POV, which makes me think his posts are coming from a consistently town mindset. IME it's generally pretty difficult for scum to fake that kind of attitude throughout the entire game, and I think he's hit a lot of genuine notes here.

Well, I thought it would be considered an OMGUS, but if you insist.

Vote: Formerfish

I really don't think anyone as scum would actually post this. like, I know it's almost too-dumb-to-be-scum, but I think this is another post that fits more with a town "I don't care what people think" mentality as opposed to having an agenda.

I invited the attention by my anti-RVS stance, it doesn't make me scum. A lot of people are exaggerating the link between RVS and lynching the bad guys.

this indicates that he knew he was inviting attention with his anti-RVS stance and didn't have a problem with it. again, I think this is more likely to come from a town mindset as opposed to scum pushing an agenda.

Nice that you're trying to discredit me. You seem nervous, the exact oposite of Elbirn.

more conviction I liked (re: copper). like, I don't think his accusation of discrediting/nervous was remotely correct, but it's another post I look at and I think it's more likely to come from a town player who comes out swinging at anyone who so much as pokes at him as opposed to scum pushing any kind of agenda. I would expect (again) that if he was scum trying to discredit copper here, he would at the very least be able to give more of a shit about his appearance; imo the way he's willing to go around antagonizing basically everyone in the game is more indicative of a town mindset

Mostly I am trying to get a feel for everyone because I haven't played with most of the people in the game afaik. It's not a quick process in this game unfortunately.

Elbirn and formerfish strike me as the type of people that like to pressure vote and reaction vote, so it doesn't really bother me. I know I'm town and I'm not the best lynch today.

I liked his thought process here, it came off very genuine to me; I can absolutely buy that he was having trouble finding his footing in the game and was focusing more on trying to get into the mindsets of other players. this is even more so the case when:

Town:

Monkeyman576
RadiantCowbells(innocent child)
Elbirn
Formerfish
Cheetory6
Boonskies

Null:

Futan
Toon Fighter
eektor
SiX
acryon

Scum

VictorDeAngelo
copper223

he decided one of his top scum reads (FF) was no longer scum. I absolutely buy that he didn't like the way FF was playing, but then realized FF's flip-over-all-the-tables-and-pressure-everyone attitude was normal for him and then had no idea where to go next so he sat back and observed for a while. plus, if you look at his copper vote (at the point where he moved off FF), it came I think 4 RL days before this switch, which is definitely enough time to make that kind of reevaluation. this whole thing came across pretty genuine, really

I admit I don't like his scum reads. however, as I said, I don't expect most of what he does to actually make any sense, so I'm willing to look past it.

I'm not sure what with Toon's emphasis on "if X is scum, Y is town" relational tells. To me it seems really weak reasoning and like he's grasping at straws.

I liked this. this basically mirrored my thoughts as I read through it, and he was (afaik? someone correct me if I'm wrong here, I might have missed some stuff) the first to point out how TF was abusing relational tells, which shows he's actually thinking about it and coming up with new opinions.

I don't have a thin skin at all.

Obviously your reading comprehension skills are lacking because you think I have only one reason for voting Toon, when I also blatantly said his relational reads were stretches. You are looking for confirmation bias when it comes to scum reading me, which is obvious on so many levels. Your original push on me early in day one for not liking RVS was crap too. In fact your overall play this game has been bad.

this is MM576 talking to someone they think is town (FF). I liked this more or less because if MM is scum here, he has had no problem bringing out the "discredit everyone pushing you" angle in the past. however, it's completely missing here. I think if he was scum, he would be more likely to revert back to that kind of attitude when FF makes another push on him; however, instead we get an attempt to call FF out on what he perceives as bad play. imo it shows he actually is forming and holding a consistent read here, as opposed to just doing whatever he can to get out of pressure.

Boon:

I don't particularly mind Boon's play. a good portion of the stances he took throughout the game mirrored mine as I was reading through it. now, again, obviously none of these are strong tells by themselves, but it's part of a overall body of work that suggests his play is coming from a consistently town mindset. ex:

Spoiler:

I'm scum reading Victor; Monkey's just that one guy who decided he didn't like RVS this game.

I don't like the big walls of fluff so early in the game, also he was leaning scum on monkey, the easiest person to wagon at the time, and now is on to Copper? Hmm...me no likey. No no no likey.

I liked the early town read on MM576. it's a moot point now because VDA was town, but I also liked his thought process re: VDA; I can see what he picked up on, I can see why he thought it was scummy (he essentially thought VDA was flow-going as opposed to doing anything original), and I buy that he believes it.

Victor's just doing easy responses. He's not really even analyzing or scum hunting.

IME it's generally hard to fake a "player x isn't *actually* doing anything" read as scum bc it generally involves criticizing a town player's entire body of work and saying it's all bad. it's hard to do that and not have it come off completely forced, because since you're criticizing an entire body of work as opposed to certain posts it will generally be obvious if it's out of place. this isn't that. again, I can see why he would have picked up on this; VDA's overall playstyle involved getting into a bunch of long debates with people that didn't actually lead anywhere, and I buy that he thought VDA was just scum smokescreening.

Hmm I actually think it's more likely both Victor and Copper are town and Cheeto (than Vic/Cheeto scum team) is just taking advantage of the interaction. Not really much basis for it, but if I were scum, I would work a town/town cross accusation like that.

Of course, this doesn't mean Cheeto is scum. In fact, I believe in Victor scum more than Cheeto scum, I'm just saying that we should look for cheeto if Vic doesn't pan out.

This isn't clear at all. AFICT you said you thought that Cheety was liklier scum than me and Copper and then said I was liklier scum than Cheety. Can you me give me a clear read on the three of us please, with order of towniest to scummiest?

I second this; it isn't clear AT ALL.

You think it's more likely for Victor to be town, and for Cheeto to be scum, but you believe Victor is more scum than Cheeto scum. WTF. Haha.

liked this; while his final assessment of the post wasn't correct (that post was scummy primarily because of how blatantly he was posturing), I can see why he picked up on that post and I 100% agree TF's post wasn't remotely clear. it's not as strong a tell as I would like bc he wasn't the first to point this out, but I still like the way he snap-called him out on it without much of a second thought.

@Eektor
MonkeyMan576 - 4 (acryon, Formerfish, Elbirn, RadiantCowbells)
MonkeyMan576 - 3 (eektor, Cheetory6, Futan)

If you think Victor and I are town, only Boon, SiX and Toon haven't joined his wagon yet, how does this fit with your scumteam?

Only reason I hadn't joined this wagon is because it seemed way too opportunistic as scum, specifically the first time he had the wagon. This second wagon is peculiar to me, though. I actually kind of find Monkey scummier now, yet Acryon/Fish/Elbirn didn't seem to anymore. There could be a case of an early bussing to show a certain kind of association between each other, but I can't really tell which one would be scum buddies with Monkey. I'm leaning more Fishy/Elbirn on that. This will be something we'll have to look more into as more information is revealed.

Anywhosies, it's just a theory. My top scum reads are Victor > Toon, with a little bit of Monkey.

this was a pretty good thing to pick up on and is an example of VCA that actually makes some amount of sense. although I disagree with the conclusion, I think this shows he's at least thinking about the game and the level of overall gamestate awareness he's showing here makes me think it comes more from a town POV

I scum read toon yesterDay, that's still there. I'm not really scum reading Elbirn. I don't get that one.

I liked this primarily because it mirrored my thoughts; plus, from a scum POV it would been easier to fake a vote on Elbirn as opposed to going to push a vanity wagon on MM.

Elbirn:

Spoiler:

mixed feelings here. he's provided a good amount of content/analysis, most of which has been reasonable, and I can generally follow what his thought processes were. I generally liked his proactivity early game; namely the way he questioned eektor and how then he attempted to sort the VDA/copper interaction. while I tend to bias towards people who correctly identified it as TvT and against those otherwise, and I thought VDA x copper was mostly white noise on both sides, I was inclined to agree VDA generally made more sense whereas copper didn't, and I liked the way he basically said he thought most of what copper was saying was crap - again, I can see why he thought that and I buy that he believed it.

Hey guys, I've been having trouble getting my head in this game, but I've been doing some reading and I'd like to bring up a few points.

Read posts 365 through and including 367, that little exchange there. The way Copper gets genuinely pissed at Cheeto. I feel like if they were scumbuddies, there'd be...Some kind of patience, or understanding there. I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say, what the right word is. But the point is, it feels like the interaction doesn't come from two scumbuddies. This would seem to imply that either one of them is scum but not the other, or they are both town.

Reading further back, same thing happens when he questions VDA who clearly gets frustrated. (Around 287)

Cheeto seems to question/suspect both of them to some extent, but also defends them, while having his vote on neither? It just seems weird. Like he's in a position to vote for either if he wants to. Acryon and Toon have done the same thing by declaring a willingness to vote for either, based on a belief that they may be double bussing scum.

Thoughts?

I also liked this mostly for how it fit with his read trajectory, as in he thought copper was scum and so it made sense that he'd look and see who he could clear of being scum with him; there's an internal consistency there that imo is indicative of a town-scumhunting mindset, plus he was (afaik, again correct me if I'm wrong) one of the first who really questioned if most of the players who had focus on them *actually* made sense with each other, which indicates he's legitimately trying to game solve.

Here's a question, Eektor followed me off the Monkey wagon onto the Victor wagon. He just did it a lot more quietly. Why isn't he getting shit for it?

this was again a pretty good thing to pick up on and shows he's aware of the overall gamestate. it also mirrors my thoughts that eektor is coasting-scum, which is a bonus.

...........are we sure innocent child means mod confirmed innocent/town? Seriously what

"If I'm not voting them then they're town"

is this a joke?

Look I wouldn't be opposed to a Toon lynch if it weren't for the fact that all of my scumreads are on it.

As it happens there's no way I'm compromising on Toon today, period, end of the line.

So if people, some of whom are town, want to go that direction, that's your prerogative, but you're doing it without the support of the IC, which would give scum good excuses for not joining the wagon, which would mean...
...that if you're voting scum the lynch isn't happening, but that if you're voting town it might.

Just something to keep in mind!

Okay I'm on a computer now, whee.

I retract 862, you didn't say that. But what you are doing is implying that we need to follow the wagons that you back, simply because you are the IC, which is bullshit. And again, it's especially frustrating because I did that Day 1 and you now are pushing my lynch as a result. Literally what the fuck.

Like the more I think about it the more frustrated I am with you.

So you don't want to lynch Toon because your scumreads are on his wagon. Here's the problem with that. For starters, you are not all knowing. You can in fact be wrong. In fact, you probably are. I already know you're wrong in your read of me for example. And while I agree on some of your other reads (Monkey and Acryon are on the wagon and I'm not a fan of them frankly), your refusing to "compromise" and vote Toon is based on 1. an absolute confidence that they are scum, instead of considering other possibilities and trying to puzzle this game out, and 2. not acknowledging the possibility of scum voting scum. If you think Toon is scum, if you interpret his actions and his words as scummy, then you need to be open to lynching him, who gives a fuck who's on his wagon. If you still think I'm more likely scum, then fine, hang me first, but don't hedge on your opinion on Toon because you scumread people voting him.

"Hi, I'm MonkeyMan576. I think someone might be scum but I'm going to argue with them until they admit they're scum instead of either voting them or convincing others."

This is also crap. He's already voting someone else he thinks is scum. Your statement is that basically you can't poke and prod at anyone but your vote. tl;dr, you can only have one scumread. No.

Because you seemed gung ho about the wagon before I joined but once I joined, you started getting nervous about it. Maybe you were planning on changing your vote(which you did once you voted me), but didn't feel like you could do it after the sheep. Like I said, weather or not you like someone on your wagon shouldn't matter that much, if you were that confident about the wagon in the first place.

Why would someone sheeping me mean I can't change my vote? I was confident about the wagon, you sheeping me and townreading me based on nothing was crappy play and I called you out on it. These are separate issues. You're basically saying that I shouldn't be critical of anyone who is doing what I am doing because I think that what I am doing is right, therefore what they are doing is right. This is false.

I retract 862, you didn't say that. But what you are doing is implying that we need to follow the wagons that you back, simply because you are the IC, which is bullshit. And again, it's especially frustrating because I did that Day 1 and you now are pushing my lynch as a result. Literally what the fuck.

I didn't ask to be IC. I hate being town power. Like, hate hate hate it.

But everything above is just facts. Like it or dislike it that's kinda just the way the story goes, so if you want a lynch that's not you find someone else and sell it to me.

And once again we get "All must follow my wagons", with an added dash of "I'm not going to change my mind or put effort in, you do the scum hunting" for taste.

I feel the fact Radiant didn't get killed last night means Radiants not targeting scum...

Or they've realized what it took me until today to figure out, that Radiant is a detriment to team town.

Elbirn, you can claim whatever you want. I know you're scum.

This is the point where if I wasn't IC I would be claiming cop with a guilty on you.

You're gonna feel like a real jackass when I flip.

And seriously, you got an idea in your head and you shut off all other possibilities. and youre smug about it? Also, you'd fake claim a guilty. I mean. Fuck. Does this site have a blacklist? I wanna make sure I don't wind up in a game with you again.

I should be mad only that you're pushing me, and not mad at you for pushing me for bad reasons.

I can see we're done here. You are beyond reason.

Bye Felicia

as I said before, I am inclined to agree RC's push here is rather shit. the way RC is pushing Elbirn right now is basically centered around semantics and tonal things that are more indicative of playstyle rather alignment. he was, imo, right to call RC out on it, and I do buy his frustration; usually when scum pull the ATE-all-over card in order to discredit someone, it feels out of place, but I can absolutely see where his frustration here is coming from.

the main thing I disliked was his end-of-D1 play. as others have said before me, it felt more like he was just coasting along and willing to lynch *whoever was about to get lynched* as opposed to pushing anyone specific, but that's about it, really

[pieguyn]

acryon/eektor:

these are mostly POE reads, but tl;dr here is that I don't see the town in their posts. it feels more like they're just attempting to coast and go with the flow, rather than making waves in the game. I don't remember anything either of them did particularly resonating or seeing anything that made me think they were legitimately trying to game solve.

in particular, I agree acryon's take on VDA v. copper was bad; it was basically textbook scum "at least one of xxx and yyy are scum but I don't know which"

with eektor, it's mostly that he's not doing anything that draws attention to himself; I remember basically nothing he's actually done that stood out as a town thought process, and most of the questions he's asked aren't particularly relevant. he's also been a huge non-presence this game in general.

[pieguyn]

TF:

Spoiler:

Now, actually reading the game:

from the first 2 pages: @Monkeyman, how do you prefer to start your games if not with RVS?

54: Some buddying and chainsaw defending between Formerfish and Acryon. Null at this point but worth revising when one of them flips

70, @RadiantCowbells: Why are you against policy Lynches? You don't believe in either LyAllLiars or LyAllLurkers? They can be a good idea until they're not, but I don't oppose them on principle

83, @eektor: Yeah I was a bit lazy, I didn't have much time to read the posts at the time and less than 24h into the game is still pretty RVS for me. Now is time for more serious post. But still, your vote was also a pretty lazy thing to do

@copper, no post in particular: why the gloating about your experience as scum? Don't like it, and makes me want to lynch you. Not particularly scummy though, just don't think gloating is ever useful.

104, @victor: That is a shitty reason for a vote and you know it. Don't like this post a single bit

116, @Monkeyman: Don't like this interaction. If you thought FF was scummy before, you should have voted him before. Voting after accusing and after being called on it looks bad.

Biggest scum reads: Victor and Monkey

Minor: Eektor and copper

Everyone else: Null

As Monkey's wagon is already quite big, and I don't want to put him at L-2 at this stage, I'll VOTE: Victor, but am willing to move to Monkey if needed.

it's been said, but this reads list is absolute ass. he basically lists every single major target as scum. I also don't like the way he follows the consensus reason for copper being scum and then proceeds to hedge on it - it basically just comes off as way too wishy washy

Hmm I actually think it's more likely both Victor and Copper are town and Cheeto (than Vic/Cheeto scum team) is just taking advantage of the interaction. Not really much basis for it, but if I were scum, I would work a town/town cross accusation like that.

Of course, this doesn't mean Cheeto is scum. In fact, I believe in Victor scum more than Cheeto scum, I'm just saying that we should look for cheeto if Vic doesn't pan out.

I hope that I made myself clear, since the though process is muddy even in my head

then he completely fucking forgets about the scum reads on MM576 and eektor. this is not a town thought process; there is no follow-up on either of those reads anywhere up to this point, nor after this until the end-of-D1 wagon clusterfuck. was that town legitimately scumhunting, or scum testing the waters to see which wagon would gain the most traction? my money is on the latter.

@mokey: As you are at L-2, and that you say vic is scum, and copp only has 1 vote, and vic is at L-2 like you... Why are you not voting Vic?

Didn't really like your reaction, Monkey man

unvote, vote: MonkeyMan

You are the one at L-1 now

god. what the fuck is this? like, why the fuck would anyone who is scumhunting actually have this thought process? there is no *real* attempt to extract information or divine alignments here, it's just "lol reaction".

I'm inclined to believe Vic's claim. Anyhow, I'll wait for the replacement to vote, and hope nobody hammers in the meantime

If there is a Vigilante, should definitely shoot Monkey.

agreed

Intent to hammer Vic, if he is still alive by tonight, I will hammer

After rereading these last couple of posts by vic, I am reluctant to hammer him. I think a monkey or even an Elbirn lynch could be better, if there is still time to build a wagon. I urge people to jump wagons

this just came off like scum who was afraid to draw too much attention to themselves by hammering. and I realize this is somewhat conf-biasy, but I think it makes even more sense in the context of him getting a shitton of heat for the way he flip flopped voes before this. also, given I think MM576 is town, I don't like his attempt at sheeping Boon's statement vig should shoot MM; it takes basically no effort to make as scum.

I changed my mind on Vic because his last few posts read as REALLY town. I didn't do it because I was 'afraid' of looking scum by hammering. I was just convinced of his claim and final statements (at L-1) and thought maybe we could lynch someone else, as a Vic lynch was a bad idea.

Admittedly, my monkey vote looks bad, and it was a bad play on my part. Think of it as a failed gambit, so to speak.

As for now, I'll return to my previous vote

Vote: MonkeyMan

if this was a legit thought process, he should have posted it when it actually happened; I think it looks more like scum coming up with an excuse postmortem to justify their behavior.

IF monkey is scum, I believe his team is in those players [Monkey-Cheetory-(Boon/acryon/eektor)]. I believed he could be scum based on his play and because we had 3 leading wagons yesterday (Vic, copp and Monkey) and I reasoned one of them should be scum. Going from there and looking at who voted whom, and that there SHOULD be scum on Vic's wagon, then I posited the scumteam.

If he is not scum (and, as RC said, the way the wagon moved from copp (town) to him could indicate that) then Elbirn is the best way to go. And, as there seemed to be more support for an Elbirn lynch today, I thought my vote could be better there.

I still believe Monkey can be scum, but RC made a fair point there.

absolutely hate this. this is not how VCA works. you don't say "one of these wagons was scum, and these 2 were town, hence xxx is scum". with VCA, you have to take into account probability when doing it; the correct logic here is that, since 2 of them were town, it increases the chance every D1 wagon was on town.

on top of all this, I don't remember a single town thought process anywhere in his ISO. there is a distinct lack of scumhunting, full stop - there's no attempts to extract information from players, and most of what he's posted has been surface level analysis and an overly large focus on associatives which comes across as forced given he's trying to link large amounts of players together with basically no information.

he is fucking scum. kill it with fucking fire

VOTE: TF

[pieguyn]

I think it makes sense for TF to be bussed here given he's basically entirely dead weight. there is no way in hell he would be able to make it more than 1 or 2 more game days past here. it makes sense that he would be bussed sooner than later.

So you don't approve of my search for statements that don't fit a persons mental state

and instead go for a safe lynch-all-lurkers pov?

lol

[pieguyn]

Pie, please unvote. We have 10 more days and I want to use them.

is TF being at L-2 really that much of a problem? I don't want to unvote.

[pieguyn]

After reading Pie's most recent walls I see that I might be under some confbias towards Monkey.

where do you stand on TF atm?

[pieguyn]

I mean shit, Monkey gets a pass for his rvs shit because he knew it would draw attention so therefore he can't be scum, but Toon "claims scum" with an obviously shitty reads list? They both seem like the same thing but we're treating the slots very different.

it's not really the same thing imo

MM didn't really make much sense, but he threw himself out there early and his pushes actually had conviction behind them. I agree what he was saying was bad, but I still think it comes from a similar town mindset.

that's a big difference from what TF did. there was no pointed questioning, no conviction, or nothing similar to that that I'd expect from town. and then there was no follow-up on half of his reads. there's nothing here that indicates he's doing anything that he thinks will game solve. do you disagree?

I didn't say this. I voted for Victor because I was quite certain he was scum. It was "I think Victor is scum and I think copper may also be scum." Very different from what you tried to put on me above.

How does this change your reads knowing you were incorrect on this?

I'm pretty sure this:

I don't think VictorvCopper is TvT. Just not sure which side is which.

is saying basically what I said. anyway, the point here is mainly that your stance looked opportunistic; it looked like a stance where scum could easily be on whichever of the {VDA, copper} wagons was more likely to go through.

[pieguyn]

Basically there appears to be a better probability that Elbirn is scum than Toon.

what are your thoughts on my reasons for townreading Elbirn?

is the Elbirn scum read based entirely off his end-of-D1 play? I'm looking through your ISO and that's all I can find. if not, why?

[pieguyn]

am I the only one who wants to lynch someone before RC gets back just to piss him off?

[pieguyn]

I'd like to hear what you think about FF.

is this referring to my paranoia or my reasons for thinking he's town?

my paranoia mostly came from 381. FF usually posts a lot of content, but it felt like there was a lack of effort there when he actually committed to a vote; gut told me it could be scum who was coasting through the VDA/copper shitstorm. that's really the only thing that pinged for me and the rest of his play has been consistently town, so I'm not interested in pursuing it

@FF:

still interested in your thoughts on this:

it's not really the same thing imo

MM didn't really make much sense, but he threw himself out there early and his pushes actually had conviction behind them. I agree what he was saying was bad, but I still think it comes from a similar town mindset.

that's a big difference from what TF did. there was no pointed questioning, no conviction, or nothing similar to that that I'd expect from town. and then there was no follow-up on half of his reads. there's nothing here that indicates he's doing anything that he thinks will game solve. do you disagree?

p-edit:

Actually from the beginning it looks like you have a pretty weak town read on him. Then you mentioned that you are biased toward reading Elbirn as town because he correctly identified the Victor vs copper as town vs town. What I see later on after he said that was he eventually voted for copper and then ended up voting for Victor. So that point holds no weight for me. Actions speak louder than words and in this case votes hold more weight than what people say in posts.

that's not what I meant. what I was saying was that I think his take on VDA v. copper looked town, despite the fact he didn't identify it as TvT.

RC's push on Elbirn and his reaction. I agree with you that RC's push was not very good, but I disagree with you on Elbirn's reaction. I didn't like Elbirn's reaction to RC's push.

why didn't you like it?

[pieguyn]

That was like one of the very first things I said on the topic. I very clearly drew lines after that. I'll give you a pass if you were just reading through and hadn't gotten there yet.

well yeah, but either way

1. if VDA got ran up, you could join the wagon.
2. if it looked like VDA wouldn't go through, but copper would, you could say "I think copper is VDA's buddy" and join the wagon anyway.

it's a stance that would allow you to join either wagon regardless of which was likely to go through. there's not much point in arguing over this given the only real explanations are you're either town who was wrong or scum taking advantage of the situation, without much room for argument; I happen to think it's the latter.

3. There's been twice I've seen people accuse you and you throw up a post of "who cares". That type of behavior I see as coming more from scum who feels like they got caught.

I agree with Cheetory here. can you either back this up, or otherwise explain *why* you think this behavior is scum motivated as opposed to town motivated? this is extremely vague.

I'm guessing one of them was his reaction to RC, but I also don't get much of a "who cares" vibe from that either. he was actively calling RC out, which feels like the opposite reaction (as opposed to just trying to write it off). walk me through this?

[pieguyn]

See bolded. Did I just catch you in a lie? Because I think I just caught you in a lie.

also I don't see how this is a lie, but I wanna see what Boon says first before explaining it

[pieguyn]

actually I'm looking through acryon's ISO

D1 happens and he pushes both VDA and copper. D2 happens and he pushes TF claiming he doesn't want to push 2 people at once, but he still has a pretty apparent soft-push going on Elbirn ("I still don't like Elbirn, but Toon needs to hang").

seems legit

My initial instincts are leaning toward Elbirn and ToonFighter. Going to look into some VCA, because with the way the wagons worked yesterday, it seems like it may be really valuable.

have you made any progress on this, btw? I'm also wondering if you think FF/Elbirn asking you supposedly terrible questions is an alignment tell or more based on playstyle.

[pieguyn]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I said Toon shouldn't be lynched. In fact, I specifically said that Toon Fighter is my #2 choice for a lynch. I believe you're slipping up, bro. I think you scum slipped with that. Making stuff up, rattling around, not checking facts before a case, and trying to pull attention from yourself onto someone else.

why do you think it's indicative of scum BS'ing?

it is more likely Elbirn just misread your post. although I suppose that could happen regardless of alignment, but it's still not a "scum slip"

[pieguyn]

I guess it's not a scum slip, but I feel it's scummy! I just don't feel like his push towards me is him actually doing anything rather than just forcibly looking for an argument. It's fluffy, and I don't necessarily understand it coming from town.

meh

I tend to misread/misinterpret posts all the time as town, so that's not what I'm getting from it at all.

[pieguyn]

Considering I explained right off the bat that I had no interest in repeating my mistakes yesterday, I figured that was clear. This post from you seems to indicate you would prefer me pushing two people day one who both ended up flipping town and then moving on and pushing another set of two people? Which is the very thing you are criticizing me for?

what I'm saying is, your stances this game have been the most opportunistic out of everyone in the game. you were open for both of the lynch targets D1, and I don't like the way you're soft-pushing the Elbirn wagon while claiming you don't want to push 2 people again today; pushing a wagon from the sideline while not getting too involved in it is a textbook scum play

why _do_ you have Elbirn as scum, anyway? I looked through your ISO and couldn't find it.

Formerfish,

eektor make very good points each

explain this. the last time you mentioned eektor was in 844, where you listed him as possible scum. what "good points" has he made since then? also, what happened to the Cheetory scum read?

I said IF. We are in the realm of possibilities. If I were to flip town, who would you think is scum? If I were scum, who would you think was my partner?

Come on guys. Let's lynch this.

mm, I think TF is scum, but this is not the reason he's scum. he's either asking this as town or asked this as scum bc he thought he would ask it as town. what do you think is scummy about this?

Jesus dude, what is the connection between acryon and monkey? Why do you think they are scum buddies?

Voting patterns and general interactions. I really don't have a big case on Acryon, that's why I have my been pushing him. Sure, I'm scum reading it, but i can't really explain it, and unless you want me to say if have a gut feeling, then there's nothing I'm going to say yet. Only reason I brought it up in the first place was because someone asked me about my reads. I had no intention of pushing Acryon, as I'm basing it off of my monkey read. After monkey flips scum, that's when I wanted to push Acryon. (This is considering there isn't a major change of play in Acryon.)

when did you start thinking this?

fwiw, I still don't think this is a slip, but I might as well ask.

[pieguyn]

I don't like most of TF's reads. it feels more like they're derived from the general impression of the gamestate at this point (FF, me town, Boon, Elbirn scum), and there's a bunch of flip flops from his previous reads with little/no explanation

I could see TF getting thrown under the bus here. I'd be up for acryon if TF doesn't happen.

[pieguyn]

pseudo vote Acryon

(with no colon)

i want acryon lynched but i do not want to see Boon in here quickhammering with 9 days left

[pieguyn]

@Elbirn:

what do you make of my recent thoughts re: TF?

cos the thing is, i don't disagree TF's wagon weirds me out, but TF has done basically nothing town and i have a lot of town reads elsewhere. and i think acryon's and TF's pushes on each other look fake; acryon for reasons already mentioned, and TF basically because there was no *actual* push until his recent posts and there was still hardly anything there. (iirc. correct me if i'm wrong, on phone so haven't checked this)

basically i still think TF being bussed here makes the most sense

[pieguyn]

What's with boon and the quickhammers? Would you hammer any player?

@pieguyn: I didn't mention eektor because he was contingent on MM being scum. Cheeto looks better than on D2 but is still worth a look

that still doesn't answer what "good points" you think eektor made recently. i also want to know *why* Cheetory looks better (and why he's still worth a look).

[pieguyn]

@Boon:

still want your response to this:

Jesus dude, what is the connection between acryon and monkey? Why do you think they are scum buddies?

Voting patterns and general interactions. I really don't have a big case on Acryon, that's why I have my been pushing him. Sure, I'm scum reading it, but i can't really explain it, and unless you want me to say if have a gut feeling, then there's nothing I'm going to say yet. Only reason I brought it up in the first place was because someone asked me about my reads. I had no intention of pushing Acryon, as I'm basing it off of my monkey read. After monkey flips scum, that's when I wanted to push Acryon. (This is considering there isn't a major change of play in Acryon.)

when did you start thinking this?

fwiw, I still don't think this is a slip, but I might as well ask.

[pieguyn]

This is the kind of shit that I knew I was going to have to deal with that was demotivating my reread q.q
This is, on the surface, one of the scummiest looking posts I've ever seen. Lol.
I think I'm an idiot because my reaction is kind of "this is too bad to be scum. There's no way scum would say something this ridiculous."
Stuff like this doesn't make me hate the idea of a Toon lynch and I can understand how anyone would want it, but it just feels kind of too easy.

Okay.

actually, hold the fuck on.

TF's whole reason for you being scum was that you were taking advantage of the VDA/copper shitstorm. but there was (*again*) absolutely no follow-through with it after both of them flipped town. like, he had you in his MM scumteam, but then after he started pushing MM as town he went straight to Elbirn and...... forgot all about it?

@TF, explain this.

[pieguyn]

this is my major problem with TF.

he fucking forgets about all of his reads. MM doesn't make sense, but his posting is at least internally consistent; TF's is not. there's no consistency anywhere and he's blatantly acting.

[pieguyn]

What exactly do you think doesn't make sense from me pie? Maybe I can clarify.

most of your play in general

as just one example, on a playstyle level, I dislike the way you react to pressure. it is good play to directly answer questions/cases against you instead of deflecting in the way that you do. the point is that I don't think most of what TF is doing this game can be easily explained via playstyle.

[pieguyn]

I am playing so bad this game. I had weird feelings about Elbirn following the flip, and didn't particularly like some of the way he handled questions and responses today, but now I think he's town. Most of my scum-read on him was related to that and gut, so I went back through his ISO to find what about it was actually pinging me, and I found some things, especially from D1 that make no sense as Elbirn-scum given Copper/Victor/Futan-town. The way he questions aspects of the wagons D1 seem very town. Even his reason for the compromise lynch of Victor in 728 makes a lot of sense.

. . .

I'm looking through this and the only time you addressed Elbirn D2 up to that point was.... when you called him out for asking you terrible questions. and you just told me you'd be reluctant to call that an alignment tell and that it was mostly play style. the only other thing I noticed is where you said his Boon post wasn't backed up by a Boon vote, but I'm guessing that itself wouldn't be a strong enough reason for a scum read.

is there more to this that I'm missing? if there is, elaborate.

But I quoted his follow-up because it wasn't a good answer for it. This question from Toon just makes zero sense as town. If Toon is town, then he is telling Elbirn to engage in a thought process that is absolutely a complete waste of time and energy. Why would you ask someone to give you associative tells based on an alignment-red that you

know

is incorrect? From a scum-perspective, this kind of question allows Toon/other scum to have extra information on where Toon's reads are at. There is literally zero town reason to ask this question.

disagree. the town reason for asking that is to make sure Elbirn is *actually* legitimately scum hunting and forming a complete picture of the game; while it would necessarily be wrong, cases usually say more about the person making the case than the person the case is about.

I'm assuming you meant Elbirn's reads. why would scum specifically focus on getting reads from Elbirn? usually "fishing out reads" isn't actually done often in practice, and when it is it's usually done to someone who's perceived as a large threat (and no offense but I don't exactly think Elbirn fits here).

I still don't follow your logic here.

[pieguyn]

@ToonFighter, redirecting this queston to you. You said yesterday that Cheety is likely scum with Vic-town and Copper-town. Why didn't you follow up on that? You haven't pushed Cheeto, voted him, asked him any questions, or anything today. Instead you started the day voting Monkey, and then me. Why?

oh lol, it seems I've reached the same conclusion as Elbirn.

Also, recently when he asked someone's opinion on who his partners would be if he flips scum. Why would town ever ask something like that?

again, I don't like this

I think a lot of people are using TF asking this as an easy thing to take a potshot at, without critically thinking about it. what do you think the scum motivation is in asking that question?

I'm also wondering who you think the scum lining TF up for lynch are, and why you'd get back onto the TF wagon at the request of someone you think is possible scum if you thought scum was lining TF up for lynch.

[pieguyn]

acryon is saying TF asked you that "if I'm scum who else is scum" question so that scum would get more information about your reads (that is, they'd get an idea for what you'd do after TF flipped scum)

which I'm not sure about cos it's not smth I usually see scum actually do. and even if they were interested in what your reads were, it wouldn't be hard to make a good enough guess based on what you had already posted in the game thread

usually the only time I ever see scum actually make an explicit attempt to learn more about someone's reads, it's done to someone who is extremely good at pushing the lynch they want, and mostly accurate, but doesn't elaborate on most of their reads outside of that. even if there was someone in this game who was that good at strong-arming lynches, no one fits since most of the people here are pretty open with reads anyway

[pieguyn]

pseudo vote Acryon

(with no colon)

i want acryon lynched but i do not want to see Boon in here quickhammering with 9 days left

Please don't do this and use FOS instead. If I see a vote without a colon I'll add one.

Spoiler:

[pieguyn]

. . . ok then

[pieguyn]

ftr

So...Thinking it over. We could lynch Toon, and he could flip whatever he flips, and then no matter what I'm going to want Acryon's blood D3. Or we could lynch Acryon who I'm confident will flip scum regardless. Acryon's death would also be more helpful in terms of information imo. If he's town, my proposed scumteam pretty much falls apart and I need to go rethink my life. If he's scum, odds of Boon scum go up, odds of Monkeyman scum go up.

Agree/Disagree?

I somewhat agree with this and this is one of the reasons I was somewhat open to an acryon lynch. it's somewhat difficult to tell in a vacuum if and who was bussing TF here; although I have some ideas based on my reads, if they end up being wrong (or if God forbid TF is actually town), meh

I haven't looked into acryon interactions much. given the way the wagons today ended up, a lot of it will depend on what TF flips.

[pieguyn]

imo

TF scum -> probably being bussed; based on my reads I would guess acryon + eektor

TF town -> today was likely a scum (acryon) wagon town-counter wagon scenario. given the timing of the votes Boon would be my immediate guess here.

[pieguyn]

also i will at least say that TF doing fuck all despite obviously being here when RC hammered is making me feel optimistic here

[pieguyn]

Where is the town motivation in that? You know you won't flip scum.

Who I think scum is on TF lynch depends greatly on whether TF flips scum or town. This post by you gives me the impression that you know TF will flip town, yet you are voting for him? Why is that?

er

I don't think TF will flip town. however, I think there's a good chance he was bussed here. the aim of this is to find out who. if I can find a hole in someone's thought process, then it's an indication that they push they were making was forced. in this case, I don't think TF's question is scummy because I think he'd ask the same thing as town (making it a null tell), so I'm trying to find out why people think it's scummy

what in that post gave you the impression I thought TF would flip town? I had outright said already I thought it was likely he was being bussed here.

also, re: 1st question, I previously explained it to acryon (second half of 1135). do you disagree with that?

Completely disagree. How does it ensure he is actually legitmately scumhunting? All he has to do is come up with a good story from there of who else is scum, which if he is town or scum, he will have.

that's the whole purpose of questioning. it is unlikely from a town POV he would have had anything specific in mind when first asking that, but if he found something contradictory, it would be telling.

besides that, meh. I don't particularly have a problem with your response here, although I don't agree.

[pieguyn]

. . .

i want to reread this entire game before doing anything. i don't think this affects acryon-scum, but i do not want to rush this without thinking critically about it.

[pieguyn]

On phone. K so I've read up on the "traitor" role. Would traitor know his team mates? Clearly main scum team didn't know the traitor as they derped And killed him. But I wanna know if former knew his teammates, that'll affect the way I read things when I go back and iso Him. But I'm guessing only mod knows that and cannot divulge?

iirc the "normal" implementation of traitor isn't in any way standardized; it can be recruitable/non-recruitable, know its teammates/not know, etc.

personally i think if you're going to run a traitor it should be they know the scum team, and the scum team knows them, but they can't interact with or recruit the traitor. that obviously wasn't the case here, though.

my initial thought is that FF had most of the scum in his scum reads, and that's why he died - it is usually normal traitor play (for a traitor who knows his team) to slightly bus your teammates so they can figure out who you are. this would (again) point to acryon.

[pieguyn]

also, i'd be somewhat interested in mass claiming today

it's currently 6-2; since we have another mislynch before MYLO, massclaim today ensures any claim/CC can be worked out before then.

[pieguyn]

WIFOM!

er..... yeah?

I haven't exactly thought about it much, but off the top of my head that's the first reason I can think of for him dying. do you have a better explanation?

986 and 1079 make me think Acryon is town. I'm not voting him today.

it's like you didn't even read my post.

one of the reasons I dislike traitor roles is that, in the case where scum do not know the traitor, it completely fucks with interaction analysis. it is possible that is the case here. besides, even if they did know each other, I don't see anything there that is impossible as scum x scum interaction (just a few questions in 986, and there wasn't really much of a hard scum read on him in 1079), so... yay?

[pieguyn]

in fact, in the case where scum did know the traitor, I think 1079 is slightly more indicative of acryon-scum than acryon-town, although it's not particularly telling either way.

there was no reason given for pushing FF as scum besides him being absent recently, and no real push on him. it is a textbook distancing play to put a scum partner as "lean scum" while not actually pushing them.

[pieguyn]

It's obvious that Fish was going for a quick mislynch day 1, then he was hard pushing Acryon Day 2. I know I am town and I'm guessing that he was trying to mislynch Acryon just like he was me. I don't think it's really helpful to worry about Fish's role that much. The important point is that he was scum and he likely knew who his teammates were.

er..... not really?

I don't remember much of a hard push on acryon from FF, and looking through his ISO his entire push was basically one post where he votes acryon and was primarily sheeping me (correct me if I'm wrong here). and as I literally just said, it is textbook traitor play to weakly bus your teammates

soooo yeah

[pieguyn]

vote: Acryon

[pieguyn]

Formerfish did not jump on the Elbirn wagon at any point yesterday. He essentially pretended it didn't exist.

this is the first decent thing I've heard from your slot this entire game. can you elaborate more on this?

granted, I still don't find it particularly compelling because I think it's likely FF would be laying down false interactions to throw people off and I still think it makes sense FF was bussing his teammates, but it's worth taking a look at

[pieguyn]

Pie, you're scum. go away.

thanks a lot for being fucking useless

[pieguyn]

also at this point I am ~99% sure Cheetory is town here.

[pieguyn]

Why are you 99% sure? FF easily could have done that to his scum buddy. I totally see that as something Formerfish would do.

not interested in elaborating on this yet. I will in a bit.

[pieguyn]

Are you scum Boon? Seriously though. This push is dumb and if you're town you should probably understand why.

^this

[pieguyn]

I'm clearly not on the same time zone as you guys. I go to sleep and wake up to 3 pages of posts.

Based on what the mod said I'm going to guess that the other mafia (it can't be just one so 2) wouldn't know that fish was one of them. It kind of makes sense because I couldn't see any connection for a 3 scum team.

Reading on Fish's ISO, I see a push on Monkey for the whole game (Monkey is most likely town now), voting acryon when there was a Toon wagon (leaning town on acryon), and a buddying with Cheetory. I think out of the 3 people voting acryon right now, 2 of them is scum.

VOTE: Cheetory

why do you think there are specifically 2 scum on the acryon wagon?

[pieguyn]

also, fwiw, FF almost definitely got killed for his crumb

[pieguyn]

o, so it's based on the reads you gave. I need sleep -.-

*why* does FF voting acryon when there was a TF wagon make acryon town, and *why* is FF buddying Cheetory more indicative of scum x scum as opposed to scum buddying up to town? I don't like how vague you're being (and I particularly want your answer to the 1st question)

p-edit: haven't got that far yet, but iirc Boon (off memory) and you (via POE) are both possibilities. I want to do some rereading before solidifying anything

[pieguyn]

. . . since when was that the reason you unvoted Cheetory?

On second thought that might be why Fish got killed and make Cheetory more town, although I'll say null because it still did seem that Fish was buddying up to him.

it looks like you said FF's crumb made Cheetory town and that your read at the end was null, which indicates you still think the buddying was indicative of scum. I don't see where in here you're considering FF might have been buddying Cheetory as town. I want to know *why* you're ruling this out.

Why would scum try to get a buddy lynched when there is an easy town lynch to go after? As far as I was thinking at the end of day 2 was we were probably going to be in lylo today. It just so happens we got lucky with what happened last night. Scum just needed an easy lynch and then try to set themselves up for a mislynch in lylo. I'm not saying that acryon is for sure town, but I'm saying it makes more sense to me that he is town than scum.

strongly disagree with this. there are a fuckton of reasons FF would vote acryon-scum here:

1. it is possible FF did this on purpose in order to mislead. this is even more so the case given he was a traitor and I think both of the other people on the acryon wagon were town
2. it is possible FF didn't think acryon would *actually* get lynched
3. FF might just like bussing in general. there might be no reason for it; some people bus no matter how little sense it makes
.
.
.

you're greatly oversimplifying the logic here. I want to hear your explanation for why you didn't stop to consider stuff like this before declaring acryon was prob town.

Now if acryon was town, what would be your thoughts on who is scum?

i have no interest in entertaining this hypothetical right now

it will be interesting to see you attempt to get out of this

[pieguyn]

I'm actually somewhat paranoid of FF's interactions with MM576. for the majority of D1, he had a huge scum read on MM576, but was willing to vote copper along with MM576.

not really interested in pursuing this until the acryon thing gets sorted out, plus I think the rest of his play looks town, but it is something I want to look into if it becomes relevant later. might look through some of MM's scum games later as well just to be sure

also think it makes Elbirn slightly more town. he also completely ignored eektor, save for posts where eektor was explicitly addressing him.

[pieguyn]

this series of posts:

You know what? Fuck it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Monkeyman576

And this makes it as viable as VDA.

Vote: Monkey

usually I don't see scum blatantly vote in a bloc like that. plus, with you/FF-scum, FF not voting would make more sense regardless of MM's alignment. he could more evenly split the wagons if both (copper/MM) were town, and hopefully delay or wait out the MM bus if MM was scum.

at the very least, it means you and MM aren't scum together

p-edit: @Elbirn

[pieguyn]

@pie

I unvoted Cheetory because of the crumb he mentioned plus the thought that Fish buddying up with him could actually be scum vs town. So let me see, you want me to bump Cheetory from a null to a town lean, then. Why are you defending Cheetory?

so you thought it might be scum v scum and then changed your mind?

it's difficult to follow what you're saying here, considering that's not what you originally said

Then you talk about all the ways why FF could vote acryon - scum and say I am oversimplifying things and of course you don't even want to think about the other option which includes all the possibilities in which acryon is town? If you want to show me why acryon scum makes more sense than acryon town, you better show me what you think about acryon - town and why that makes less sense than acryon - scum. Otherwise, I'm content with my vote right now.

it is not my goal to convince you. it is my goal to scum hunt your thought process

FF not doing any of the reasons I listed off are assumptions you would have to make in order to come to the conclusion you did, namely FF trying to mislynch acryon. I want to know *why* you didn't consider one of those possibilities, or any possibility similar to that, before coming to the conclusion that acryon had to be town as a result of that interaction; since there is a pretty big gap here and for some other reasons that will soon become apparent.

[pieguyn]

oh and @Elbirn:

what that means is that FF basically completely ignored eektor, except for points where he was basically forced to respond to him. usually when scum completely ignores another player, it is worth looking into. this isn't particularly a strong tell, since as I said it's possible FF could have done that on purpose in order to mislead, but meh.

[pieguyn]

I don't really see you scum hunting, I see you trying to set me up for a mislynch. Why I don't consider your other possibilities because I see acryon town making more sense than acryon - scum. Which you fail to want to address, so I don't see this going anywhere.

. . .

jesus fucking christ. *why* do you think acryon-town makes the most sense here? what possibilities were you considering and why did you arrive at that conclusion?

like, you explained you think acryon being set up for a mislynch makes the most sense. ok. I want to know *why* this is the case. just saying "it makes the most sense" without explaining the reason tells me fuck all about the thought process you actually had here. when I first asked this you said it was because you didn't think scum would bus with a mislynch on the table, and I provided a few counterarguments to that point, at which point you never answered (instead just saying again you thought acryon-town made more sense), so.... yay?

Ah okay, I was confused because it sounded like you were bringing up me being more town because of FF ignoring me, and then saying the opposite for Eektor. *Headscratch* But in that same train of thought.. Do you not feel that FF ignored me? You said 1223 was a good point. But now you're saying ignoring me could have been done to mislead. Buttt in the context of Eektor you...Seem to think it's more likely a reliable tell? Yeah I know, you pretty much discredited it in 1284, but then why bring it up in the first place?

no, I'm saying ignoring eektor could have been done to mislead

it's not really the same thing; RC was saying that FF ignored you _when you were a viable wagon_, whereas I'm saying FF didn't interact with eektor (as in, he didn't have any posts or conversation directed towards him except responding to posts where eektor was explicitly addressing him).

the former tell with you is generally more indicative because it is an action that can actually affect who gets lynched or not. however, I think the vote pattern pointing towards you being town is a stronger tell, and thus more relevant

the latter tell with eektor is a textbook tell - scum are more likely to outright ignore their partners - but it's fundamentally a weak tell because it's easy to manipulate, especially if you're a traitor where it would be more likely you'd lay down false interactions.

at the end of the day we can't really tell fuck all from most of this. interactions aren't useful by themselves a lot of the time; they're more useful when placed in context in order to get a better picture of the game. so I will still note them in case they become relevant later

My vote switch + FF's vote switch immediately after did in fact even out the wagons between Monkeyman and Victor. Does this mean MM is likely town, in your opinion?

not really. as I said to eektor, it is possible he didn't actually think MM would get lynched, or it is possible he did this on purpose to throw everyone off. do you disagree?

[pieguyn]

listen up fuckwit

i have been asking you about this since 1258. you gave a roundabout answer ("why would scum bus with a mislynch on the table"), i gave at least 3 counterpoints to that, and you still haven't argued counter to it.

*you* are the one who is blowing off my question here. your question that i blew off came after mine, and i actually had a reason for it; i blew off your question because, put simply, acryon isn't fucking town here, and you're a huge derp if you're town and can't see that by now.

Your continued questions at me tell me you want to convince me to vote acryon with you guys, yet you say you are scum hunting and you specifically mentioned you think I'm scum. Shouldn't you try to convince someone else then instead of me? Or do you know I'm town and you need my vote?

this, btw, is pretty fucking awful. you're essentially saying that i can't possibly be questioning a scum read. you're also saying this immediately after i said my intent was to question you as opposed to trying to convince you.

legitimately don't see how anyone can actually think this makes sense

[pieguyn]

[pieguyn]

. . .

vote: Eektor

[pieguyn]

initial thought is eektor + Boon, although I want to do some rereading before going anywhere

@Cheetory: can you confirm the "informed" bit isn't some sort of lolgambit?

[pieguyn]

actually nvm

dumb question

[pieguyn]

ftr

Your continued questions at me tell me you want to convince me to vote acryon with you guys, yet you say you are scum hunting and you specifically mentioned you think I'm scum. Shouldn't you try to convince someone else then instead of me? Or do you know I'm town and you need my vote?

this by itself is, imo, enough for a vote. for the people watching at home, his angle here is that I can't possibly be questioning him as a scum suspect.



@Cheetory, Elbirn, acryon: I'd like to hear your thoughts on the above post as well as if you're open for an eektor lynch in general; also curious to know your thoughts on Boon since it's..... somewhat difficult to form a standard read here and I'm POE'ing him atm.

p-edit: . . .

[pieguyn]

did you miss the part where Cheetory claimed there was no SK in the game and acryon claimed vig?

[pieguyn]

Actually come to think of it, I think Pie might be scum with Elbirn. If you look at Pie's ISO, she's been completely trying to move votes off of Elbirn while staying under the radar about it. When I had initially pushed Elbirn, Pie was the one trying to say it's "town vs town". And she completely tried derailing any of my pushes towards Elbirn. She's still staying away from the Elbirn wagon. She's trying to start a counter wagon off of her scum buddy.

After Elbirn flips, you're next Pie. GG.

VOTE: Elbirn

. . .

if you had a problem with my town read on Elbirn, you could have, you know, asked about it? what part of my reasoning for town reading Elbirn have you disagreed with and why?

also, i'd be somewhat interested in mass claiming today

it's currently 6-2; since we have another mislynch before MYLO, massclaim today ensures any claim/CC can be worked out before then.

role fishing.

are you fucking kidding me?

I suggested massclaim because in most cases, _massclaim at the round before xYLO is the theoretically correct play_. plus, I literally explained _why_ it was the theoretically correct play in the exact post you quoted. how is that role fishing?

I agree with this and the same thing happened on day 2.

same question to you. and do not dodge this like you did the last time.

[pieguyn]

@eektor:

sorry for confusion, I wanted to know about this:

if you had a problem with my town read on Elbirn, you could have, you know, asked about it? what part of my reasoning for town reading Elbirn have you disagreed with and why?

I'm asking this bc I don't like the way you seem to be weakly following Boon on why I'm scum.

[pieguyn]

also I want to do some rereading before anyone hammers

[pieguyn]

@Pie - I don't need to ask about it. You're scum.

fuck off, asshole

the whole point is that if you think I'm scum tactically defending a partner, you should be able to see something incorrect in my push that indicates I'm making it up. you seem to think this. so, what in my push do you disagree with that gave you the impression I was defending a partner?

you also didn't answer my question about role fishing. what makes you think I'm scum specifically role fishing when I explained why massclaim at round before xYLO is the theoretically sound play? the more obvious explanation is that I'm either town suggesting it or scum who suggested it bc I would as town; the way you call it "role fishing" looks like scum trying to find an easy way to paint someone else (me) as scum

you thinking I'm supposedly scum is not a fucking valid reason to not answer a question. if you legitimately think it is, then you're a derp and I don't give a shit if you think I'm scum. so, answer or I'll be on you until you die

@pie If you are talking about your post 929, Intro you talk about you are biased him being town for correctly labeling the Victor vs copper town vs town. He said that at first but then later on moved to copper being scum and then later on voted Victor even though he thought Victor was town. Not a good start for me to town read him.

then you talk about his post 592, yeah that's probably a good one to show he is scum hunting

Then you talk about him posting about me joining the Victor wagon with him. I disagree with that point as I joined the Victor wagon as I had been leaning scum on Victor whereas he joined the Victor wagon thinking Victor was town. Huge difference there.

Then you talked about RC pushing him, which I thought RC push wasn't a good one, but I did get a scum impression from his reaction whereas you thought town.

mm, first things first, I didn't say Elbirn identified it as TvT, I said I liked his stance despite him _not_ identifying it as TvT; it looked genuine even if it was wrong.

which of these points came off as disingenuous to you? also want to know if this affects your read on Elbirn at all since you said you agree 592 was town

[pieguyn]

So say you're town, and I vote for someone you townread. What do you do? You try to move my vote to someone you think is scum.

IAWTP and this is one of the reasons I don't like Boon's push on me.

he thinks I'm scum for defending a town read. and when I ask him what in my defense looked incorrect or disingenuous, he goes "nup, fuck off". fucking seriously?

But now I'm skeptical, because his initial "hammer" doesn't seem faked at all, and his attitude surrounding it conveys a certainty that it was the hammer even after I reacted to it. Then he...Claims he forgot it wasn't a hammer. Which would indicate he didn't actually have any kind of plan, and it just sounds like making up shit for towncred.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this one?

IAWTP as well. it looked like scum making shit up after the fact in order to gain town points.

Also I couldn't find this argument at all, and am still kinda hoping you'll point me to it. Fanks.

if I had to guess it's the stuff starting at 69, then the stuff starting from 452 (since Boon probably won't ever answer this)

I didn't find anything there compelling. the first one is all talk about his playstyle and how he's worth being policy lynched (which I'm quickly starting to agree with even though it was coming from scum, so I could actually see a scum partner coming up with this looking for an easy thing to say, really), and there's really not a strong push starting from the second post.

[pieguyn]

vote: Boon

don't see this going anywhere today, but meh

[pieguyn]

It's POE'ing with the impressions.

yes, but logically speaking, you should be able to demonstrate *why* my defense of Elbirn is bullshit if you supposedly think it is. and being a town player, it would be in your best interest to do so.

on the other hand, not going into detail makes at least some sense from scum because you don't risk being called out for faking a read, and no sense from town

so, if you think my defense of Elbirn is fake, elaborate

I think you're role fishing, because you are role fishing.

it's not "role fishing", it's suggesting a play that I think is theoretically correct. I want to know *why* you think my motive here was explicitly role fishing as opposed to simply trying to imitate my town game.

I've seen this happen before. Scum can't stand when they get caught by the illogical idiot of Boon that they completely try to discredit everything I say. Then they try to push for it and realize it's a lot harder to actually lynch me than they expected.

where am I trying to discredit anything you said?

the only thing I can really say I "discredited" was you not answering my question because you supposedly think I'm scum, because that's exactly what it was. if you think my argument is invalid, then argue the point instead of claiming I'm trying to "discredit" you.

[pieguyn]

Also, FF's RVS vote was on Pie's slot, just saying.

this tells me you either have no idea how to properly hunt interactions or are just scum looking for an easy angle to push

fwiw, FF's interactions with me actually make me pretty town

[pieguyn]

I disagree that they make you look town. If that's the case, then it makes Monkey scum from FF's interactions.

you don't even know what it is I'm referring to when I say FF's interactions with me make me town. why are you attempting to draw conclusions from it?

regardless, the point there was that "lol, voted in RVS" is fundamentally shit as an associative tell. and you pushing it indicates you either don't realize this or are just scum looking for an easy thing to comment on

and I don't get what you're going on about with the other point, but I do think you and eektor are most likely to be scum here

[pieguyn]

literally everything Boon is posting is giving me eye cancer

although part of this is because he's being a fuckwit who isn't answering questions; but regardless, his reaction to Elbirn didn't look town at all

[pieguyn]

@Cheetory:

can you walk me through your current thoughts on Boon?

cos I don't think anything he's doing at all right now looks town. most of his posting is fluff and there's no substantive scum hunting, but I imagine this is (frustratingly) more of a playstyle thing. the thing I think is most scummy is that I think his reaction to Elbirn looks really manufactured, and I think this is relevant regardless of his playstyle, so I wanna know what you think here

also, for the record,

@Boon:

, my frustration isn't really directed towards you as a player, it's directed towards you not answering questions. if you want it to stop, answer the fucking questions. but I don't mean any personal offense here

[pieguyn]

also I think scum would be slightly more likely to be entirely oblivious to the soft guilty, but I don't think this is a strong tell either way

[pieguyn]

Enjoyed this site while it lasted, but an overzealous mod combo'd with ambiguous rules and unequal application has soured it for me.

@Mod: Replace me please.

:/

stay, plz.

mod disagreements happen. sometimes it just can't be helped and I'd feel really sad if one thing ruined the entire site experience for you. I enjoyed playing with you

[pieguyn]

How does it look manufactured? At all? This is how I always post around this point in games.

mm, all of it, really, although it's partly gut

1375 doesn't strike me as the kind of thought process a town player would have when attempting to scum hunt someone pushing on them. I don't know what you were trying to get from that question or what your point there was; it felt more like it was coming from a scum-mudding-the-waters mindset. I'd like to know exactly what you thought Elbirn might answer here and what each possible answer would tell you about his alignment.

1377 struck me as unnaturally overdefensive for no reason; it felt more like scum trying to make the person pushing them look worse than them. I also think it's somewhat contradictory given you're using reasoning like "lol, FF voted pie in RVS, pie must be scum!" which is just about the easiest load of bullshit anyone can possibly come up with.

so, yeah. (and I'm guessing you're just going to ignore both of these again. if you want any hope of me backing off you, it won't happen until you actually argue counter to what I'm arguing)

[pieguyn]

@eektor: still want your response to this:

@pie If you are talking about your post 929, Intro you talk about you are biased him being town for correctly labeling the Victor vs copper town vs town. He said that at first but then later on moved to copper being scum and then later on voted Victor even though he thought Victor was town. Not a good start for me to town read him.

then you talk about his post 592, yeah that's probably a good one to show he is scum hunting

Then you talk about him posting about me joining the Victor wagon with him. I disagree with that point as I joined the Victor wagon as I had been leaning scum on Victor whereas he joined the Victor wagon thinking Victor was town. Huge difference there.

Then you talked about RC pushing him, which I thought RC push wasn't a good one, but I did get a scum impression from his reaction whereas you thought town.

mm, first things first, I didn't say Elbirn identified it as TvT, I said I liked his stance despite him _not_ identifying it as TvT; it looked genuine even if it was wrong.

which of these points came off as disingenuous to you? also want to know if this affects your read on Elbirn at all since you said you agree 592 was town

[pieguyn]

I have. Because you are doing the EXACT same thing. So I don't put it in a sense of emotion where you are just 'keeping calm' and using emotion be the gist of your scum reads.

... i don't even know what this means

We are doing the exact same thing to each other. Anything you are dissecting from my posts, you could do the exact same thing to yours.

er... no? if you think this, then actually argue the point for once instead of just throwing shit at the wall.

[pieguyn]

. . .

you're claiming I'm doing most of the shit I'm accusing you of doing. I ask you to elaborate on this. how the fuck is that discrediting? (and if you're referring to the last part, I'm saying this because you literally aren't answering any questions nor elaborating on any of your reads when asked; if you want to disprove it, then actually fucking elaborate on what you're saying for once.)

[pieguyn]

I'm looking at vote counts and I'm like 99% sure Elbirn is town here.

I'll post specifics later (along with maybe more conclusions), but the upshot of this is that FF didn't seem worried in the slightest about the Elbirn wagon happening. he had a huge chance on D2 to save him if he wanted to (even more so the case when you assume a FF-Elbirn team given Elbirn wasn't voting on TF at that point either), but instead sat around WK'ing the mislynch (TF) that would have been counter to the Elbirn wagon.

I'd like to know the reasons people are scum reading Elbirn that don't have anything to do with associatives/POE, cos most of the reasons ppl have put so far have been that he's apparently on a team with me (which even if this didn't have anything to do with me would be shit, but I know is shit regardless bc I'm town anyway).

[pieguyn]

Are you saying you don't believe that Elbirn identified the Victor vs copper as town vs town at the beginning? Just because one post sounds town, doesn't make that person town. Scum can make some good townie posts. The only point that seems disingenuous is you saying your impression of him based on the town vs town argument. I read the post seeing you were biased of him being town because he correctly identified the whole Victor vs copper as town vs town. Which is true because I saw him say the same thing at the beginning. Now you are saying you didn't think he correctly identified the whole Victor vs copper as town vs town. Which one is it?

. . .

mixed feelings here. he's provided a good amount of content/analysis, most of which has been reasonable, and I can generally follow what his thought processes were. I generally liked his proactivity early game; namely the way he questioned eektor and how then he attempted to sort the VDA/copper interaction.

while I tend to bias towards people who correctly identified it as TvT and against those otherwise, and I thought VDA x copper was mostly white noise on both sides, I was inclined to agree VDA generally made more sense whereas copper didn't, and I liked the way he basically said he thought most of what copper was saying was crap - again, I can see why he thought that and I buy that he believed it.

this has always been what I thought about Elbirn's reaction to VDA/copper D1. (in reference to his stance starting from 172).

and it's kind of funny that you think I'm scum defending Elbirn, but sans this there's nothing in my defense that you think is disingenuous. if there isn't anything disingenuous about it, why exactly do you think it's coming from me-scum defending a partner, again? as I said to Boon, if you think it's coming from the POV of scum defending a partner, there should be something that is indicative of this.

It's possible, of course. But the way Elbirn and pie are refusing to attack each other, despite the obvious questionable behavior to everyone else, just leads to a certain picture. Plus Elbirn/pie fits with Fish more than eektor.

funny that you say this, but when I ask about what "questionable behavior" is coming from Elbirn, you don't actually answer the question.

not to mention I don't believe anyone has actually pushed any of my behavior as questionable anywhere (sans Boon and none of what he's posted has made any sense) and most of the reason for scum reading me seems to be POE. I don't think you're scum, but you're being a massive derp.

I kind of think Eektor's town. Possibly for dumb reasons, but still.
I feel like the traitor mechanics this game are "if you shoot them, they join you" and I think mafia would be aware of that.
Eektor being like "I think mafia killed their scummate" feels vaguely like a townslip.

not a town slip i m o

it isn't difficult to come up with weird angles like that as scum

[pieguyn]

@Pie right I read that statement as you are biased toward Elbirn being town because he correctly identified Victor vs copper as town vs town. That is why I asked for clarification, did you actually mean that Elbirn didn't think it was town vs town at the beginning?

that's what I've been saying this whole time, yes. albeit he did say it "might be a town fight" right at the very start of the game, but that didn't matter cos when it actually got serious he decided copper was scum

Also, why would you be disingenuous about defending a scum buddy?

. . . because I would obviously be making it up, and ergo, that should come through in some way in my defense. so if you think it's me defending a partner, you should have an idea of what exactly it is I'm making up, and why it's made up.

The main problem with you is your reads are messed up. I understand your reads when you thought acryon was scum. Because most likely the scum buddy is not voting for acryon. It makes sense that you would think it was either me or Boon. But I wanted to know what your read was if you thought acryon was town, which you refused to give. Although now I know because now that you think acryon is town you still think me and boon are scum? Yet you don't even question Elbirn your hard town read that was voting for acryon who you think now is town? That makes no sense to me if you are town. Now that your acryon wagon fell apart you are trying hard to get any wagon trying to pull people off of Elbirn.

uh.... seriously?

I refused to give reads based on if acryon was town because _Cheetory was softing a fucking guilty on acryon_, and I picked up on that. (and, hint hint, when acryon claimed and it became obvious he wasn't scum I did give my updated reads.)

Elbirn voting acryon isn't scummy, again, because _Cheetory was softing a fucking guilty on acryon_. moreover, even if it was, that by itself would be an awful reason for reversing a town read. you're essentially saying I'm scum because I'm not thinking of someone else as scum for one minor point despite all the other evidence I'm seeing pointing to them being town. how the fuck does that make any sense?

and yes, I am trying to get a wagon off of my town read and onto my scum read

this is pretty fucking awful, really. I'd like to know exactly *why* you think everything you're pointing out here is actually scummy.

[pieguyn]

Why is it a town tell if someone says they have a 'town v town' on a 1v1? everytime I've been scum, one of my partners has said that on the day 1 1v1. I don't see how that makes anyone town at all.

........ were you even reading my post?

not only did I never say it was a particularly good tell, that isn't even why I claimed Elbirn was town (since he didn't actually do that). it just happens to be a personal bias of mine that scum are slightly more likely to take advantage of TvT 1v1s by picking a side and pushing there. I liked Elbirn's reaction _despite_ him doing this bc it came off genuine enough anyway and I could follow why he came to the conclusion that he did.

The fact that he rarely interacted with Fish

here's an exercise for you

open Boon + eektor in dual ISO and look at how much they interacted with each other.

and fwiw from the rereading I've done so far FF's interactions actually pretty much clear Elbirn (and to some extent myself too, but that's beside the point). will prob elaborate on this after I reread more

[pieguyn]

[pieguyn]

OK

so

Toon Fighter

- 4 (MonkeyMan576, eektor, Elbirn,

acryon

)
Elbirn - 3 (

Cheetory6

,

Toon Fighter

,

RadiantCowbells

)
MonkeyMan576 - 1 (Boonskiies)

Not Voting - 2 (

pieguyn

,

Formerfish

)

this is about the time the Elbirn wagon was rising. FF's behavior around this time, as well as some other factors which I'll explain after this, are a large part of why I think Elbirn is practically as conftown as an IC right now.

for purposes of this argument, I'm going to be assuming Elbirn is scum; the point here is to demonstrate why FF's actions really make no sense on the assumption Elbirn is actually scum here.

FF's first post was 869. the thing that is notable here is that he expresses uncertainty about TF here and asks for TF's current thoughts at that point, as well as elaboration on the "VCA" he did. this will become relevant later.

in 874 he votes MM576. in 944/945 he backs off MM in response to my entrance to the game and unvotes.

then in 950 he claims a null read and starts waffling to shit on TF. if anything, his reasoning there suggests he thinks TF is slightly town for being too bad to be scum. at this point, Elbirn and TF are both tied for the leading wagon with 4 votes. the next few posts are just him arguing with MM until he goes and sheeps me onto acryon in 1060. (for the record, when he voted acryon, Elbirn only had 2 votes at that point)

this is a large part of why I'm town reading Elbirn at this point. look back at FF's original read on TF. he was obviously trying to spread suspicion about TF, but then for whatever reason he didn't follow through with it; he just sat around and did nothing for a while until the acryon wagon happened. the conclusion here is that FF didn't feel like it was necessary to join the TF wagon to serve his agenda.

so, why would scum-FF deliberately avoid the counterwagon that would save his scum partner?

it doesn't make any sense. he had about 3 RL days where he could have came in, BSed some reasons for TF being scum, and voted him.

what does make sense? FF seeing 2 town wagons come up (along with acryon which would have been a _third_ town wagon) and deciding he didn't have to do anything to get a mislynch in, so he just sits around and does sweet fuckall for a bit until he finds someone to sheep (which btw is the reason FF's interactions with me make me town; he was pretty obviously attempting to buddy up to me here).

Elbirn - 4 (

RadiantCowbells

, eektor, MonkeyMan576, Boonskiies)
Boonskiies - 3 (

pieguyn

,

Cheetory6

, Elbirn)

Not Voting - 1 (

acryon

)

the other reason I think Elbirn is likely town is the composition of his wagon. if you accept that I'm town, then literally every single unknown besides Elbirn himself is on his wagon. where else have we seen those names?

VictorDeAngelo

- 7 (Boonskiies,

copper223

,

acryon

, MonkeyMan576, eektor, Ebirn,

RadiantCowbells

)
MonkeyMan576 - 3 (

Futan

,

Formerfish

,

Toon Fighter

)
Elbirn - 1 (

Cheetory6

)

Not Voting - 2 (

SiX

,

VictorDeAngelo

)

Toon Fighter

- 6 (MonkeyMan576,

acryon

,

pieguyn

, eektor, Boonskiies,

RadiantCowbells

)

acryon

- 4 (

Cheetory6

,

Toon Fighter

,

Formerfish

, Elbirn)

oh look. on both lynch wagons. voting town. derp derp

so.... yeah. I think it's pretty obvious Elbirn is town here, but I don't expect MM or RC to do fuck all about it because they're still thinking Elbirn is scum for *insert shit reason here* (like, really, MM's entire reason is that Elbirn and FF didn't interact much with each other, which is somewhat ok, but that's literally the only fucking reason he has so far besides him apparently being on a team with me. and I don't even know what the fuck RC is going on about at all with his push there, really). :/

[pieguyn]

also the main reason I think eektor is scum at this point is there's a bunch of gaps in his thought processes/pushes recently that don't make much sense from town (e.g. the part where he pushed me earlier saying that me questioning him directly implied me thinking he was town for whatever reason, as well as most of what he's done recently). speaking of that:

@EEKTOR:

I still want your response to 1490.

[pieguyn]

See, the logic would have made more sense on your part if we actually accepted you as town. We don't. Except Elbirn, but he doesn't count because he's protecting his scum buddy.

you only need to accept me as town for the second half, and even then, it's not a necessary condition, it just emphasizes my point. the fact that the composition of the wagon is literally the same fucking thing as the previous 2 wagons (both on town) should be a pretty telltale sign regardless.

This being said, there's a high possibility that the fact we are in a stalemate so big, means scum is likely trying to get a counter wagon on me. It makes more sense for scum to be on my wagon, than Elbirn's. Scum usually is the reasoning for the stale mate this late in game, and that pretty much states that at least one scum is on my wagon.

. . . then, again, argue *why* what I'm saying is wrong instead of just throwing shit at the wall. if you think I'm blatantly full of shit here, you should be able to explain *why*. this is fucking simple shit.

@Pie - if I was confirmed town, who would you think scum would be?

MM576 and eektor (entirely via POE). but I'm pretty fucking sure you're scum at this point and I don't know what your point here is, so I have no interest in entertaining this hypothetical any further

[pieguyn]

(((cheetory)))

[pieguyn]

Why would scum not jump on a soft cop claim that someone is guilty when they know they are town? So if you shift to acryon being town, it should cause you to doubt your Elbirn town read.

there isn't a reason scum wouldn't (save failing to notice). however, the point here is that _there isn't a reason town wouldn't, either_.

it is perfectly reasonable for town to jump on a soft guilty, hence the act of doing so is a null tell. the fact you didn't realize this is (to steal Cheetory's phrase) a shallow analysis of the situation.

You are too sure Elbirn is town. You are so sure of Elbirn being town, that if we lynch Boon and he flips town, you still wouldn't doubt Elbirn is town.

and I still want to know exactly *why* you seem to think this is scummy.

what part of my defense do you feel is unjustified? as I've said countless times, if you have a problem with the way I'm defending Elbirn, you should be able to explain *why* you think I'm making it up or why it's unjustified.

also

@Cheetory:

I realize this was directed at Elbirn, but I can give a quick rundown of my issues with Boon's play if you want. although it'll have to wait until later cos I'm busy p much all of today

[pieguyn]

Town I would think would be more suspicious than just jump in with any person claiming a guilty.

this is false, and that's all I'll say about that. I don't care to argue theory any further

Why do I think you being so sure of Elbirn is scummy? First of all, as far as I know you don't have a history of playing with him. You aren't saying guys listen this is Elbirn's town game, he isn't scum here. Second, your reasons listed does not warrant such a hard town read (you are acting like he is a confirmed town).

yes they do.

until someone can explain to me why

1. FF would act the way he did around the Elbirn wagon
2.

[pieguyn]

feck

until someone can explain to me why

1. FF would act the way he did around the Elbirn wagon
2. the exact same fucking scum who have been on the first 2 lynch wagons (in this case I think Boon/you, but this works even if I'm wrong as to exactly who it is) have popped up again on Elbirn's wagon (and don't try to bullshit around this by calling me scum. I know there necessarily has to be at least one on there at this point FMPOV)

there is literally no reason for me to think Elbirn could be scum here. both of these are indicators that basically clear him.

and saying I apparently need meta in order to have a strong town read on someone (as opposed to using my scum hunting ability to figure it out) is really really shallow

[pieguyn]

i already miss acryon :<

[pieguyn]

yo Cheetory

what do you think about my thoughts in 1536? fwiw, the second point there should actually be more compelling than it would be otherwise if you don't think Elbirn and I are partners, since the only way the Elbirn wagon could be town driven from an outside POV is if Elbirn/me is the scumteam.

[pieguyn]

interesting.

Actually, I WAS THE ONE WHO WAS PUSHING FORMERFISH!!! Sure, he acknowledged me first by discrediting something I said by saying I wasn't posting much, and then I PUSHED HIM!!!

where were you going with this, then?

(also full disclosure, don't really get how this fits at all with what you've been thinking this entire time up to this point, but as it looks like you're reevaluating reads, meh. it's still a contradiction regardless.)

[pieguyn]

oh, I'm a derp and misread -.-

still doesn't change my mind about you being scum, but I'll drop this specific point. (fwiw, I thought you were using it to argue you were town as a result of FF interactions, which would be bullshit because you clearly just demonstrated that you know pushing FF wouldn't actually be a town tell for you.)

[pieguyn]

This isn't necessarily true. I know a lot of people who play scum and don't join any of the town wagons. That is definitely not the only way it could be town driven.

. . .

from an outside POV, if Elbirn and I aren't both scum,

there necessarily has to be at least 1 scum on the Elbirn wagon, since there isn't anyone else left.

this is what I'm saying here. do you disagree?

[pieguyn]

See, the issue is that I haven't ruled out the idea of Pie/Boon scumteam.
If that was the case, the wagons still make sense because you can let Boon push Elbirn while stancing yourself opposite to him. Elbirn gets all the fire and if Boon flips then everyone thinks you and Elbirn are most likely town.
I don't really have any associative tells between the two of you, but it's the sort of situation that I would ideally want to be in at this point as scum and it makes me kind of wary. Your first point is compelling

@Pie

, but I don't trust you enough to want to sheep you on the second q.q

fair enough. as I said, I can explain my Boon read in depth if you think it'll help you sort through this.

What even does this mean

We should sheep town...And walk into our own graves like town wants. Instead of thinking for ourselves and not dying. I....Huh?

IAWTP

@MM, this really just makes no fucking sense and if you're town I hope you take this as a learning experience and reevaluate your play accordingly.

[pieguyn]

It seems to make sense to everyone else. You're forgetting I've played with you as scum in Guardians of the Galaxy II.

uh, what the fuck? we were both town there.

and yes, multiple people in this game thinking it magically makes sense is a large part of why Elbirn is being run up for such shit reasons

[pieguyn]

Hey pie, where would you reevaluate your thought process when Elbirn flipped scum, assuming you were town yourself?

I have a lot of trouble seeing anyone who fits specifically as an Elbirn partner. my initial guess would be Boon. mostly via general play without regard to interactions, and to some extent for him randomly flip flopping on Elbirn a few times throughout the duration of this game day (one of which was to suggest lynching me instead of either of them). I'd look more into it if it actually happens.

[pieguyn]

For mafia, it's "if you don't know who the scummiest player in the game is, it's you."

except in this case this is happening because the reasons you/RC are putting up (as well as the reasons Boon and eektor are pretending to put up) are collectively shit, and you all are too derp to realize how shit they are or how obvious it is that scum are capitalizing on it. (despite me clearly pointing out that, hey, what do you know, the same fucking people who have capitalized on the first 2 lynch wagons are capitalizing on this one. CLEARLY THIS TIME IT'S MAGICALLY GOING TO BE A SCUM LYNCH, AM I RITE?)

[pieguyn]

and yet no one has given any reasoning at all for me being scum besides "lolol he must be Elbirn's partner", save maybe eektor and his "reasoning" is questionable at best. (and no, before you try to claim this as a scum tell, because you're confbiasing so hard that I know you will here, read the next paragraph)

I've said this before. it's fucking simple shit. if you think someone is scum, you should be able to explain *why* you think this. but since you all are derps, you all are just continuing to back each other up with no logical explanation, without regard to how obvious it is nothing about what you're thinking actually makes any sense. and then when Elbirn called you on it, you went "nup, lol ur scum". it's typical group think. as I said, I hope you take this as a learning experience and reevaluate your play accordingly if you are town here.

[pieguyn]

[pieguyn]

ur a rly good player

[pieguyn]

:/

[pieguyn]

And I know that's a hard thing to get you two to agree on because Pie doesn't think Monkey is scum for god knows what reason, and you, cheeto, kinda townread Eektor at least a teeny bit.

fwiw, I was actually starting to consider this, although not because I think Boon is town at this point

eektor had said earlier that if you flipped town he wouldn't be interested in lynching me. this really doesn't make much sense from scum who needs 2 mislynches to navigate endgame, since he'd be locking himself out of the other probable mislynch.

on the other hand MM576 went full steam ahead tunneling you and me at the same time, which makes a lot more sense coming from scum in this position. if he continues with this tomorrow and doesn't actually attempt to game solve despite you flipping town, that would be pretty fucking obviously telling.

can you (or you

@Cheetory

) give me a more thorough run through of what to expect looking through Boon's meta? cos imo meta similar to what Cheetory did isn't very compelling "he's dramatic in his town games but not his scum games" isn't very compelling since it's easily faked.

[pieguyn]

that's actually pretty fucking awesome. my initial thoughts overnight were that I was wrong about eektor and that scum was indeed Boon + MM. I'll go through and case later, but I'm fine with a lynch on either.

[pieguyn]

and the obvious way to confirm Cheetory is to mass claim today, although I'm 100% Cheetory is town and massclaiming wouldn't change shit (especially bc if there was another PR they should have CC'ed yesterday). this setup would not be balanced if there are any more PRs out there; but gunsmith + 2-shot vig + IC makes a good amount of sense in terms of town power.

[pieguyn]

vote: MM576

don't see much of a reason to leave the vote off at this point. back in a bit, no one do anything drastic until I get back.

[pieguyn]

Don't like that pie is just accepting a admitted liar as town.

lol

[pieguyn]

the only way eektor can be scum here is if he's a mafia doctor, which would be >:C especially when there's already a roleblocker. additionally, I had already thought he was more likely town at this point via play after rereading D3

@Cheetory:

can you elaborate in detail on the meta behind your Boon read? I'm not particularly sure at this point how much it's playing into your current reads or what the exact argument there was. (I remember you said he was more dramatic in his town games, but the only thing I can really say without more elaboration is that smth like that is easily faked.)

[pieguyn]

also NL'ing here is essentially shit since it's always going to end with Cheetory dead and no additional info gained

[pieguyn]

With Elbirn flipping town, and this wagon seemingly filling up, I feel this clears me. There's no possible way that Formerfish would vote Monkey, if I was a scum buddy. There's no reason for me at all to even be on Monkey at this point if I was his scum buddy.

this doesn't "clear" you in any way. I can link at least 2 games where there was an entire 3p all-scum wagon, which in at least one of those cases was done for the express purpose of subverting VCA. having a 2p all-scum wagon on a scum partner is in no way unreasonable, especially with 2 competing town wagons that are both infinitely more likely to actually get lynched. in fact, I'd argue that it makes slightly *more* sense that scum would sit around doing fuck all with 2 town wagons already in play.

Also, a little after this, Pie convinces Formerfish to change his vote on to Acryon, who is the new wagon starting up.

er... no?

FF's jump on acryon was entirely him following me. there was no attempt to convince FF here, and even if there was, this would not be scummy if you assume scum didn't know the traitor. in fact, it's obvious he was trying to buddy up to and manipulate me there, so this actually makes me pretty town

so.... try again?

[pieguyn]

speaking of sitting around doing fuck all, this was every mention/interaction with MM576 since you actually made that vote up to the Elbirn vote.

Spoiler:

I'm thinking possibly Monkey/Acryon now.

VOTE: Monkey

I don't think they're connected, more do I think they are scum together. They're just my scum reads.

IC is too strong for 2 scum game, but much too weak to be the only PR in a 3 scum game.

IC isn't that strong, they are usually night kill bait.

In fact, I wouldn't call IC a power role myself.

They are 100% mod confirmed town. How is that not a power role? It directly and indirectly changes the way other PR's target and helps people read others.

Because more often than not they are killed on night 1 and a non factor for most of the game.

I mean if you are going to call any non-VT role a power role than yes. But not if you are going to compare the relative power of roles.

Okay, apparently wiki defines PR as any Non VT role. Personally I think some minor roles are not Power, but that is just semantics.

The IC tag is a given to protect from another town PR, if there is a protective role. If we can successfully get a NK, that's awesome. It's incredibly helpful and powerful. Also, if for some reason the IC doesn't die, we can also look into reasons why scum would choose to keep the IC alive, allowing us to analyze further. It may not be powerful directly, but indirectly it is most definitely a POWERful Role.

I think I'm just biased and nit picky towards you because you're scum.

Sticks and stones...

You don't think guessing as to why the IC is alive is WIFOM?

No. It's the same thing as figuring out why any confirmed town stays alive. It means they're not a threat to scum at all.

Then I guess it's not that powerful a role, if they are not a threat.

The player is not the threat. The role can be and is. A vigilante isn't a threat to scum if the player's reads are horrible. If the doctor has no idea who to protect, they are also not a threat. An inventor who doesn't know what to do with inventions is not a threat. PR's don't have to be threats. Doesn't mean they aren't PR's.

How do they contradict each other at all? There were 100 posts in between, and I also scum read Toon Fighter Day 1. I don't believe Toon Fighter is scum with Monkey, whereas I could see Acryon and Monkey scum together. I don't really have much reasoning for Acryon. Usually he tunnels me pretty hard as town, and he's playing kind of differently than I'm used to him playing. Also, his placing on the early day 1 wagon was odd to me, and I'd like to look into later, depending on the flips. I absolutely do not think Acryon should be today's lynch, as there's not enough scum reasoning behind my gut feeling, and I don't believe it'll give many reads. I'd much rather a Toon Fighter lynch than an Acryon.

What I meant is I'm thinking they are possible scum buddies for now. I don't mention all of my reads necessarily, as early on in the game, I'm not really sure how to word it with it making sense to other people. I also said for now...plot points, yo.

I don't see much conviction in any of your reads, Boon. Red flag, for sure.

Because I'm scum reading you and also the person you are voting for? LLL. Is that implying you know Toon Fighter's going to flip town since my scum read on that is bad?

No, I don't know where you got any of those assumptions from.

I said your reads lack conviction and I don't see any comprohensive reasoning.

Toon/Boon/eektor scumteam?

Also, you asked why Monkey and Toon couldn't be scum together. Monkey wouldn't be bussing Toon so hard. He wouldn't do that. There's no possible way. None at all. He might soft bus her, but he's had a hard on for lynching Toon, and he could easily have just voted you. Unless...

Have I nailed the whole scum team? Is it Monkey/Acryon/Elbirn? Ha!!! Inb4 Acryon/Monkey start sheeping Elbirn.

there really is no *actual* push here. you also pushed Elbirn way more strongly than you did MM576 at this point in the game.

it makes a lot of sense you would soft-push the Elbirn wagon (one of the 2 town wagons) while making a weak-ass push on a partner that would have no chance of actually getting him lynched. additionally, the reasoning here was generally weak as fuck. a lot of it was just arguing over why the IC would get left alive and there was no sort of pointed questioning/accusation anywhere in here. it's night and day to the push you made on Elbirn at this point, really

sooooo yeah. your interaction with MM doesn't in any way clear you 2 of being partners.

[pieguyn]

unvote:

i haven't fully read yet but i do not want any risk of a self hammer before discussion is over

[pieguyn]

@pie I assume you are fine with either a Monkey or Boon lynch today?

yes

Also, from Pie's perspective, she should be 100% aware that if she was town, monkey and I would HAVE to be scum. She's not playing that way. Monkey and Pie are confirmed scum.

fucking really?

where have I acted like anyone outside of {you, MM576} are scum? I outright said as much at day start and haven't pushed anyone else since.

this, btw, is what I find most scummy about your play in a vacuum. over the course of D3/today, it doesn't feel like you're *actually* trying to figure out anything about the game. most of the things you're accusing people of are really shallow and in some cases outright false; you're just making up whatever excuse you can to discredit people whenever they push you. this is the same thing you did to Elbirn yesterday.

To me, everyone else could be VT or Goon and the setup would be balanced. That being said, there my guess is there is a power role on each side. We can't just assume that there are no unclaimed power roles.

the obvious solution here is to fucking _massclaim today_, and I outright said this at day start. why aren't you taking any kind of interest in this?

Why would I ask you to unvote if I was going to self hammer, pie?

it is true that you did not self hammer previously; however I've seen scum who waited a bit after being placed at L-1 before self hammering, so that means fuck all to me.

[pieguyn]

Why would you care if he self hammers and he's scum?

. . .

I literally just posted the exact reason in the post where I unvoted. squirm much?

[pieguyn]

vanilla townie

[pieguyn]

o.o

[pieguyn]

assuming 2 goons for this:

full gunsmith
2x vig
IC
full bodyguard
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
------------------------------
goon
goon
traitor 2x roleblocker

legit don't know how this would ever pass the NRG balance review. only thing I can really think of is goon/scumdoc instead of goon/goon, or remove bodyguard which would imply eektor is scumdoc fake claiming bodyguard.

this might be a moot point, especially when I think eektor is prob town and eektor's partner if scum necessarily has to be MM576, but I need to do some rereading.

@eektor:

did you crumb it anywhere?

[pieguyn]

What's a full bodyguard? I just know that I can protect whoever and then if they are targeted to be killed that night, I die instead.

No I didn't crumb. I don't think I would ever crumb a protective role. And if scum figured out the protective role was a bodyguard, they only needed to target the IC once, kill me and then next night the IC died. Although I was trying to give the impression that there must be a doctor in play.

full = not limited in any way (e.g. not x-shot, not odd/even night, etc.)

re: the last sentence, can you link me to where you did that? I see 1338, but I wanna make sure I'm not missing any other posts. I don't particularly think you're scum at this point, I just want to know for completeness.

[pieguyn]

a Mafia doc protects mafia at night? Is that even a role for normal games? Also, you imply there are two goons, couldn't there be another power in the two mafia and them not being just goons?

scum doc is just a doctor whose alignment is mafia; it doesn't necessarily have to protect other mafia but there's no reason for it not to

it's a textbook role in setups with gunsmith/vig since it provides a convenient counter to both at the same time. it's also normal (since it's just the mafia variation of a doctor).

it's really the only way I can see this setup being balanced against gunsmith/bodyguard/2xvig/IC since otherwise it's too town sided, but it fits well enough that I don't see a need to further question the setup

[pieguyn]

I haven't read yet. sec

[pieguyn]

i was town. you trolling?

[pieguyn]

i had this song playing in my head throughout the entire game. i didn't wanna roll scum here, but i enjoyed it. GG

[pieguyn]

other thoughts: acryon kill happened on N3 because I was clueless as hell. I figured Cheetory's claim was probably a bluff, but thought we would be likely to win even if he guiltied one of us. unfortunately I derped and did not consider the possibility that he would get an inno _and_ that there would be another PR out there still.

sorry for being a dick to you eektor. I didn't mean it personally, it's just something I've wanted to try out as scum at one point.

sorry Elbirn if it makes you feel any better, everything I said about you was genuine and I would probably have been defending you _harder_ if I was town here.

sorry for trolling at the end, but after N3 I did not want to discount the possibility eektor was lying about his role and the game would continue.

sorry Cheetory, I thought you in particular played really well and I feel for you having sort through this huge mountain of VIs. I hope both of us roll town the next time we play with each other. RC and MM576, literally everything I said about your play style was 100% genuine and I hope you reevaluate your play accordingly. FF and Boon, you both were amazing and I loved playing with both of you <3

[pieguyn]

I think town deserved to lose more than scum deserved to win though.

also, this

this game made it really easy for me to just sit around and do nothing the whole game, and we really should not have won that MYLO after eektor got cleared. oh well!

Would definitely play with Eektor, Pie, Boon, Elbirn, Victor, Acryon or even Copper. Y'all were cool even if this game made me want to die a little on the inside.

<3

and yes, endgaming RC after he claimed his scum hunting ability was supposedly stellar was the high point of this game for me

[pieguyn]

also @Cheetory, I got scared as hell D3 because you called exactly what I was doing (defending Elbirn counter to Boon while hard bussing him). I'm glad you didn't follow through with that thought

[pieguyn]

speaking as a scum player, I can confirm that RC was one of my best friends this game

you had me as scum since what, D2? but rather than trying to get the rest of town to see what you saw, got frustrated that no one was following you. when you weren't explaining the reasoning behind any of your reads.

my comments on D3 to you were legitimate. the whole fucking point of reasoning out your scum reads is to convince the rest of town to see what you see, or in some cases to allow them to convince you your read on them is incorrect. now, obviously I was pretending like it would be the latter, but regardless, no one is going to listen to you if they have no idea *why* you actually have the reads you have.

and I won't even start with MM cos lololol

[pieguyn]

(((cheetory)))

[pieguyn]

Elbirnlynch was really dumb and if anyone had listened to me even a single time maybe I wouldn't have gotten to the point where I didn't give a fuck anymore. Because that honestly played more of a factor than anything else in me giving intent for Elbirn hammer at that point.

hey, I tried to tell you Elbirn was town, but you didn't trust me enough ;w;

[pieguyn]

The way you guys assign blame is truly perplexing. I'm not the one who's responsible for the mislynch in lylo.

yeah............ about that............

My sanity will be protected via blacklist.

ironically, probably this.

i didn't think i'd ever need to blacklist anyone as the result of a game where i was scum, but. guess there's a first for everything

[pieguyn]

MM, you have literally no reason to defend your play here.

_you_ are the one who flipped out and went insane in MYLO. _you_ are the one who loltunneled the fuck out of Cheetory, despite the fact that it was fairly obvious that Cheetory was not scum and that Cheetory-scum in this gamestate would have literally no reason to, nor would not even know how to, gambit in the way that he did on D3. and he told you this, and you ignored him and went "nup, LOL scum".

the fact that literally every townie besides you was on you at day end and I didn't even need to hammer is testimony to the fact that your play was scummy

it is one thing to admit you were wrong about something and move on. everyone is pissed off at you because not only were you wrong but you're so fucking arrogant about it and won't own up to it.

that's really the only thing I have to say about this topic. I don't care to continue this toxic discussion any further

[pieguyn]

Dat admission of guilt. ;_;

it wasn't an admission of guilt. and I know that cos I would have made the same post as town. it was intended to be me reacting to you getting hammered

Srsly though Guys, this was the play. This. Was. The. Play. If I weren't dead I would have jumped through all of your computer monitors and screamed it at you. I really thought one of you would have realized.

yeah, that's why I went and tried to spread paranoia of a scum doc as soon as eektor claimed bodyguard. which it looked like people started to buy at the end, but fortunately it ended up being a moot point!

[pieguyn]

thanks everyone :3 also btw

Boon/me bus wasn't Boon playing to his scum meta of always hard bussing. we needed something to avoid getting POE'd since there were too many unlynchable ppl, so we basically went LOL FULL BUSSING MODE on each other so that the other one could win after one of us got lynched, which I figured was almost certainly going to happen at some point. of course, that all became unnecessary after D4 happened (but hey, it led to people ruling me/Boon out on the last day, so I guess it was still beneficial?). ironically, if I knew Boon's bussing meta, I might have come up with something else entirely since I'd be worried about people figuring it out.