Mini 1698: MDCXCVIII [C'est fini!]

[Shazam]

Psyched for this game. Bummed that I have to leave now.

[Shazam]

VOTE: WoodyWoodpecker

VOTE: implosion for not giving a reason.

[Shazam]

why do you think that's vote worthy shazam?

Because it's rvs.

VOTE: shazam
Its rvs

Self-contradictory reasoning VOTE: Bulbazoor. If it was rvs, then my vote was also random and therefore there was nothing wrong with it.

even if it wasn't rvs it's not vote worthy

There are different reasons why something can be vote worthy. If it wasn't rvs, Player A voting without a reason might cause me to vote Player A simply to discourage their behavior, not because I actually thought they were scum.

[Shazam]

rvs is voting for a random reason, you voted for a game related reason which imo isn't rvs

want to try again?

imo

^ Key phrase here. I don't really care what you consider random, it was random.

VOTE: pk

For taking so long to confirm properly

This could also be considered a game related reason. I still think it's random.

So the answer to your question is no.

[Shazam]

Unvote

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx
I wanted to do this earlier but there was no one else voting him so it wasn't really worth it. Thank you, KK.

Yeah I
Dont like this. Town doesn't need cover for a vote.

VOTE: implosion

Agreed. I'm not going to vote him yet because he has a bunch of votes already, but FoS for sure.

[Shazam]

Yes, but 3 votes had already been placed on Implosion. I think he should have been trying to find another possible scum at that point.

Scummiest thing yet. Not only are you wrong about how many votes were on implosion, but what townie would suggest that we need to find two scum before putting pressure on one? Definitely seeing a Mario/Implosion team as a possibility.

[Shazam]

Yes, but 3 votes had already been placed on Implosion. I think he should have been trying to find another possible scum at that point.

Scummiest thing yet. Not only are you wrong about how many votes were on implosion, but what townie would suggest that we need to find two scum before putting pressure on one? Definitely seeing a Mario/Implosion team as a possibility.

If spawn was the 3rd vote, then I retract what I said
3 is not actually bad and we can keep this on Implosion.
And I was thinking that we already had 4 votes on Implosion. What's more, it is good to have pressure on more than one player, as otherwise if we're wrong we have nothing to fall on. And I don't like how you said that being wrong is scummy.

Being wrong in a way that diverts attention from someone else is scummy. But only if that someone else is scum themselves. Hence no vote on you.

I like Kublai's reasoning. VOTE: GrayFoxxxx

[Shazam]

If everyone agrees on one person, that's a bad sign, as that means mafia are content with the lynch.
We are better off with everyone grilling their scumread, like you are doing with me right now.

So you're admitting that town gains information if we all agree on one person. But you also don't want us to do it.

[Shazam]

I feel as if the recent action in this thread is consistent with a scum derailment of conversations about Mario and Foxxx that were actually going somewhere. It's hard to keep track now of exactly where we are in either of those conversations. Mario, don't think you can get away with not answering post 81 after all this nonsense. I won't be posting tomorrow, jsyk guys.

[Shazam]

If everyone agrees on one person, that's a bad sign, as that means mafia are content with the lynch.
We are better off with everyone grilling their scumread, like you are doing with me right now.

So you're admitting that town gains information if we all agree on one person. But you also don't want us to do it.

No, because in pure statements, mafia can bus.
I meant if the player was actually being lynched and everyone online was jumping aboard, because that would indicate scum were content with the lynch.
It is always best to have more than one suspect and it's the way it's always done.

Everyone can go check that in post 79 the context of what you were dealing with was not in fact an actual lynch of a player. The person you were quoting in post 79 was talking about SUSPECTS, who you yourself said we did not have to lynch. They made the point that it's better to have one suspect for increased pressure on that person, and then you said that we shouldn't agree on one person because mafia would be content with the lynch. Now you are waffling and saying that mafia can bus, so mafia being content with a particular suspect DOESN'T mean that suspect is town. In addition you are diverting attention away from your mistake by claiming that the context was about actually carrying through with a lynch, which it was not.

This is scummy not because you have a certain opinion about what everyone should and shouldn't do, but because when that opinion was challenged for being anti-town, you both waffled and deflected. You are far too defensive to be town imo. VOTE: MarioManiac4

[Shazam]

\

I still want to visit NE, but people are ignoring my points on him (particularly the bottom of 193). He's still acting scummy. He's essentially ignoring everything in the game except for Mario because he says he's waiting on Mario to see whether or not he answers the question, or what else he does, while he asks random questions towards people in the mean time. Waiting for days to give a better read on one person while ignoring forming reads on other players is not town play, it's scum trying to stay under the radar and create an excuse for not creating content. Three of his most recent four posts (134, 167, the first half of 238) are all basically just saying exactly this with different wording. He's talking a lot about the development of his mario read, but not much else.

If anyone could give any additional opinions on NE, it'd be appreciated.

While I agree that waiting for days to give a better read on one person while ignoring everything else is probably not good town play, there are a lot of other reasons it could happen besides NE being scum. Being short on time or just not being that good at the game would be two of those.

I actually like my RVS vote on Mario, and not only because I may hold a bias grudge. His few posts already seemed to come from his scum thought process from last game. Pointless fluff, targeting an easy target. He'll probably attempt an obvious bus soon, but not follow through with it at all.

Feels like coaching.

The mod said scum have daytalk. Why would they coach in-thread? Or are you saying that it feels like town coaching someone? In that case, why would you bother pointing it out?

[Shazam]

If everyone agrees on one person, that's a bad sign,

as that means mafia are content with the lynch.
We are better off with everyone grilling their scumread, like you are doing with me right now.

So you're admitting that town gains information if we all agree on one person.

LOL what?^^^

Everyone can go check that in post 79 the context of what you were dealing with was not in fact an actual lynch of a player. The person you were quoting in post 79 was talking about SUSPECTS, who you yourself said we did not have to lynch. They made the point that it's better to have one suspect for increased pressure on that person, and then you said that we shouldn't agree on one person because mafia would be content with the lynch. Now you are waffling and saying that mafia can bus, so mafia being content with a particular suspect DOESN'T mean that suspect is town. In addition you are diverting attention away from your mistake by claiming that the context was about actually carrying through with a lynch, which it was not.

This is scummy not because you have a certain opinion about what everyone should and shouldn't do, but because when that opinion was challenged for being anti-town, you both waffled and deflected. You are far too defensive to be town imo. VOTE: MarioManiac4

I don't see what he has deflected, he has defended his thoughts on the whole suspect/lynch thing (not going into semantics). Aside from not answering N.Es question, he just seems like a Newbie.

I can't tell if you are purposefully not following his train of thought.

I missed this the first time through.
I think the "LOL what" is yours, so I will go ahead and explain post 81 further. Other people seem to have understood it without explanation, but anyway...
He said if everyone agrees on one person, it's a bad sign, because scum would agree with that lynch. Now since the context was not an actual lynching of someone, but pressure put on that person with the intent to lynch, he was not (or should not have been) talking about an actual mislynch, but a potential one. If he really believed that everyone agreeing on one person meant that person was town, then he should have been all for an agreement on one person. Why? Because it would provide the information that said person was town. But he was against focusing on one person.

I don't see what he has deflected, he has defended his thoughts on the whole suspect/lynch thing (not going into semantics). Aside from not answering N.Es question, he just seems like a Newbie.

I can't tell if you are purposefully not following his train of thought.

I explained in the post what he deflected. He started trying to say that he was talking about an actual, carried-through mislynch that everyone agreed on. This was not in fact the context of his post, as an actual mislynch was not taking place at the time, just pressure put on one individual. Again, my reasoning for him being scum is not that he's wrong about what we should be trying to do, but rather that he prefers to waffle and deflect rather than simply admitting he was wrong.

[Shazam]

Looking for a replacement for MarioManiac4 unfortunately.

If he's not going to respond to the criticism, then we probably have to lynch him. His replacement is not going to be able to explain why he acted so scummy. I hope it's not too meta-gamey to say that this looks like scum whose team criticized him to the point of him giving up on the game.

[Shazam]

Mario is scum. I do not see play similar to his town game. I know its based mostly off of meta, but it is also a gutread. I do not see any point in the replaceout. Unless he had an issue in rl.

Shazam. Scumlean. Why did he react the way he did when I voted him for RVS? And then hes rushing the lynch before replacement even talks? I do not like that.

LOL. The irony of this juxtaposition.

If he really believed that everyone agreeing on one person meant that person was town

This is where we disagree, and it seems to be the foundation of your case.

I think he meant that if most of the town is comfortable with lynching someone, there is more often than not Scum on the wagon. Not EVERY time.

Also, when would every single person vote for one player on D1? You guys are debating an odd circumstance. I find it unreliable to find scum discussing hypotheticals such as this.

It is very much not the foundation of my case, and I have taken great pains to point out that it is not. Your continual defense of Mario/Dominator looks to be very misguided, since you (seemingly intentionally) miss the point of what I'm saying. His statement was absolute, but your attempt to soften it to a "more often than not" doesn't do him any favors. The point is this: to the degree that agreeing on someone is "a bad idea" because scum will be on the wagon, it is in fact a good idea, because scum being on a wagon gives the town information. Now let us get back through your smoke and mirrors to the heart of the issue. Mario waffled, deflected, and then left the game when I pressed him and voted him over this issue. Who was right and who was wrong is irrelevant.

Not really seeing an objection with lynching Mario. But id like to see more before any final decisions.

Mario is def a townlean. He's a relatively new player who I have played simultaneous games with by now.

Shazam's reads strike me as shallow and flowing with town sentiment.

Another hilarious juxtaposition. My reads are "shallow", but your reads are "oh I played with this guy so def townlean guys." I have the deepest and hardest to explain single read of anybody in this game thus far. This is evident from the fact that I've had to explain it at least three times.

[Shazam]

Being wrong in a way that diverts attention from someone else is scummy. But only if that someone else is scum themselves. Hence no vote on you.

I like Kublai's reasoning. VOTE: GrayFoxxxx

I don't like this. A bandwagon on kub. Scum points for you

You don't like this, so I'm scum? And do you mean a bandwagon on GrayFoxxxx? If I came up with my own reasoning for everything, there would be no use for the rest of the townies to speak. So I do indeed simply subscribe to others' reasoning when I find it good and town-sided.

Dom is continuing Mario's tradition of being town.

Saying it doesn't make it so. In addition I really have no idea how you could read Dom as town from the little he himself has posted thus far, no matter what he said.

[Shazam]

Oh and I forgot in post 133 shaman seems awful eager to vote Mario or foxx

Yes, I was. What is your point? I was already voting one of them, and later switched to the other. They're the two players whose posts I like the least so far in this game.

Ok I'm pretty much caught up. You guys want to interrogate me? Want me to RC?

I don't care if you roleclaim. I doubt very much whether it would change anything.

[Shazam]

Town
Kahn
Dragon
Pisskop
Faq
Gray
Stubbs
NE
Bulb
Boon
Implosion
Shazam
Scum

Hmmm, something seems fishy about this...

Shazam
Scum

I just can't quite put my finger on it...

Shazam
Scum

Oh yeah, that's what it is.

Seriously folks, the best he could do was "I don't like a vote this guy made about halfway through the game so he's scummy." And it just happens to be the guy that wants him dead and has given the most explanation for that position.

[Shazam]

Scum are often eager to vote up someone and it was pretty early in the game and you wanted to vote up me and foxx. It looked scummy IMO

I have literally no idea what this is supposed to mean. Having people I wanted to vote looks scummy?

[Shazam]

Oh and I forgot in post 133 shaman seems awful eager to vote Mario or foxx

Yes, I was. What is your point? I was already voting one of them, and later switched to the other. They're the two players whose posts I like the least so far in this game.

Ok I'm pretty much caught up. You guys want to interrogate me? Want me to RC?

I don't care if you roleclaim. I doubt very much whether it would change anything.

Reeks of antitown mindset.

This is not reasoning. This is stating that you think I'm antitown. It is not antitown to not care whether someone roleclaims. This is a normal game. Therefore, it is incredibly unlikely that a claim before the first night will lend any credence to a player.

[Shazam]

The Bulbazoor and FA_Q2 wagons are bad. Neither of them has said enough with actual content to demonstrate that they are scum. Note that I'm not saying I read them as town, just that people should stop voting for them and focus on someone they can make a good case for.

[Shazam]

What if he was a power role? Scum would want anyone to be hammered before a claim.

You act as if we could ever know he was a power role before he died. Why the heck does it matter if he claims a power role? I would hope that nobody who actually possessed that role would counter-claim him, because then his attempt at fishing (assuming he's scum like I think he is) would have been successful. I didn't say I wanted him dead before a claim, particularly. I just don't care if he claims, because I don't think any good can come out of it.

348 is also bad, making you seem worried because of one scumread on you. Post 77 also seems like you are willing to sheep. Playing a game of " I like his reasoning so I am going to vote C" is not a good play. Your votes make it seem to me like you are playing a game Of Pick A Wagon Any Wagon, and your most recent post is another evidence of that to me, tbh.

Despite the clearly non-serious tone, you think 348 makes me seem worried? About an OMGUS scumread? I've addressed post 77 already, but your claim that it represents my attitude to this game in general shows that you have been paying no attention whatsoever.

[Shazam]

The Bulbazoor and FA_Q2 wagons are bad. Neither of them has said enough with actual content to demonstrate that they are scum. Note that I'm not saying I read them as town, just that people should stop voting for them and focus on someone they can make a good case for.

Then we need more posts from them. Voting them will create pressure and make it more likely that they will talk. I think it's working of Bulbazoor right now, in fact.

I agree with the first sentence, but not the other two. Voting doesn't get people to talk in ways that add anything to the game if they're not already adding anything to the game. Bulbazoor has not said a single thing that involved thought and made any sense.

Shazam seems focused on pushing the game in a particular direction. Not sure if that means anything yet.

Yes, and that direction is people actually finding reasons to say someone is scum and lynching that person. 370 posts in, it's not time to use your vote as a token or a prod. It's time to use your vote as a weapon.

[Shazam]

Stop the implosion nonsense and vote Dominator. If you think they're a scum team, we can look at implosion tomorrow. And yes, I'm aware of this post...

My scum team rn is shazam and implosion

And I don't care in the least.

My scum team rn is shazam and implosion

Bus a buddy[Implosion]; vote a townie[Shazam]. CLASSIC.

True dat.

Lemme get this straight you guys wanted to lynch Mario because of activity meta and not answering questions? If that is the case you should give me a blank slate

PEdit: if you want me to vote implosion I'd be happy to

No, actually.

There were clear reasons given by myself and shizam for the scum read. Those have not gone away IMHO. At this time there is better though (hence my vote's location).

He's just flail defending his predecessor.

Truer dat.

Only thing I want to point out is that Dominator will clearly do just about anything to not be lynched. But would he really allow himself to be sheeped onto a wagon of his scumbuddy? Not so sure.

[Shazam]

I know I've been tunneling on Mario but I found him really scummy and I'm not to confident in my other reads. I wanted to focus attention on him to create pressure. I'm not sure about TheDominator37 yet.

I find Woody a bit scummy. His posting seems to be rather fluffy as Boonskiies pointed out, but he has are some town tells, too. I'm just not sure. I thought GrayFoxxx was scummy before but his recent posts look like town. I definitely see the case on Bulbazoor. I kind of see the case on pisskop, too, but I'm not sure.

The main problem right now is that we have a couple of players that haven't contributed much (FA_Q2 and StubbsKVM). It is easy for scum to sit back and watch townies lynch each other.

How does anyone else not see this guy as scummy? He's giving himself SO much explicit wiggle room here. He doesn't want to call a bunch of people null because then it won't sound like he's giving concrete reads, so he says Woody is scummy but has some towntells, Gray was scummy but has also towntold, that he can see the case for one growing wagon, and that he can kind of see another case. That is just so overtly waffley. He's building in room to go in whichever direction is most convenient in an extremely underhanded way.

He then proceeds to vote a lurker for an opportunistic vote. Which is pretty much the least risky possible way to vote if you're scum.

Idk. Only ONE person has said anything regarding NE in response to the points I've made (correct me if I'm wrong), and that's Shazam.

I think the most important word in your post is "overtly". He seems to be outright admitting that he's leaving himself wiggle room, because he's admitting that he doesn't know that much at this point. I don't see that as scummy, just useless.

The only salient point I see that makes me suspect the Dom slot is the possibility that Mario was just a bad new player under pressure as scum. Idk. I guess I should look at the game in question. I just don't know if, if it is the case that he replaced out because he's new/feeling pressure, if he would do that even if he was feeling pressure as town. Dom's play so far is very eh.

I disagree that he would cave so heavily to pressure even if he was town. If he really was town and therefore: a) had nothing to hide and b) had less to fear from his own lynch, he would not have reacted so poorly.

[Shazam]

Three people (Dom, Woodpecker, Bulb) have now voted me or supported those who do. None of them have raised a single salient point that would indicate why they think I'm scum. If you needed any further evidence besides my own gameplay to know that I am town, you have it now. Note: saying "this post is bad", "this post is scummy", or "should we lynch him?" do not count as salient points, if you were wondering.

my reads right now for scum are khan, shazam, and FaQ

One person who has posted very little content, another person who has given solid reasons for everything he's said and also hasn't provide a ton of content, and me. Needless to say, I don't get how you're scumreading any of those three. imo, the only people that even COULD be scumread are Mario/Dom, you (Woodpecker), implosion, Boonskiees, and GrayFoxxx. So I'll ask you this: which of those seems scummiest to you?

[Shazam]

I'm not answering that question cause those people aren't on my radar. Doesn't matter if you don't understand how I'm scum reading them, just know that I am.

Ill try to explain each when I get more time. My head needs a break from that reading plus I'm about to get in the car.

1. Yes
2. It doesn't bother me

The people who have posted the most with the most content are not on your radar. How very anti-town of you. You won't be able to convince anyone else that the two besides me that you're scumreading are scum. There simply is not enough evidence to present. As for me, you're welcome to take your best shot. I'm fairly confident you'll end up convincing people that I'm town if anything. Except for the people with a vested interest in killing me already. Which reminds me, why is Dom still alive? He exists only to try and OMGUS me to death because he knows that's the key to his survival.

[Shazam]

How is that anti-town exactly? Cause they post the most I should scum read them? :insert confused George Bush picture:

This has to be a deliberate misunderstanding. I explained very clearly what I meant. It's anti-town because if you're right about your other two suspects, you still won't lynch them because nobody will believe you. They will not believe you because those two haven't provided enough evidence to read them.

Number of posts does cause scumreads, it just makes them more possible. Thus my request that you give at least a scumlean on at least one other person who has posted significantly.

[Shazam]

The people who have posted the most with the most content are not on your radar. How very anti-town of you. You won't be able to convince anyone

Deliberate misunderstanding? No that's exactly what you said with this post.

It's not. The fact that you find none of those people who post the most scummy is anti-town. That is not the same thing as "you should scum read them because they post the most". The differences are twofold: 1) I'm not suggesting that you should find them scummy BECAUSE they post the most. 2) I'm not saying you should scum read all of them, just at least one.

[Shazam]

Just cause its really been the only real wagon doesn't make it good. Whats funny is in a round about way you guys have proven Mario's opinion correct. Focusing on 1 person is a bad idea and that's basically what has happened.

No. It is not. What has happened is that a few people picked up on the fact that he was scum, and a few other people put all of their effort into finding other people to look at and defending him. It has never appeared that a large number of players would be willing to lynch Mario/Dom.

Despite the clearly non-serious tone, you think 348 makes me seem worried? About an OMGUS scumread? I

Going back to this.

Yes your reaction to his vote on you was terrible. I also don't like how you immediately discredit his vote as omgus. If you were the only one voting him, maybe you can call it omgus but multiple people were voting him and he picked you for some reason.to call it omgus is actually scummy on your part.

It was too strong of a reaction for just 1 vote

Sentence 1: saying it doesn't make it true.
Sentences 2-3: I was the most vocal member of the wagon. I do not find this to be a coincidence. Do you?
Sentence 4: saying it doesn't make it true.

I do not consider that a strong reaction, and perhaps you ought to look at my other reactions to votes/scumreads on me.

[Shazam]

Sentence counts above do not take into account the "Going back to this" sentence.

[Shazam]

Sentence 1: saying it doesn't make it true.
Sentences 2-3: I was the most vocal member of the wagon. I do not find this to be a coincidence. Do you?
Sentence 4: saying it doesn't make it true.

1. No saying it doesn't make it true, but you denying it doesn't make it false. Typical scum response
2/3. It. You know it actually could just be coincidence right? If you were town I'd expect you to not react so strongly to your top scum read calling you scum
4. See my number 1.

You saying his vote on you was omgus doesn't mean it's true (see how that works?)

You know I'm entitled to my opinion right? My opinion doesn't mean it's true. Somebody disagreeing with my opinion doesn't mean mine is wrong or theirs is right.

Mario was attacked early on for wanting town to focus on more than 1 person. That's something that can easily be twisted into being scummy but the bottom line is that isn't.

I really don't have any interest in defending Mario cause I don't town read him that strongly, but when I see things being said that just aren't true I will call them out. That goes with anybody. That's why I made a point to call out the misconception that he was telling people what to do when he clearly wasn't.

Alao the replacement vote on you could certainly be omgus, but I don't feel it was and there's no real basis other than you saying it is.

This post is just to let you know that I'm not going to be responding to any of what you say here, because none of it is worth responding to. You don't understand how debate works, and I don't feel like educating you.

No. It is not. What has happened is that a few people picked up on the fact that he was scum, and a few other people put all of their effort into finding other people to look at and defending him. It has never appeared that a large number of players would be willing to lynch Mario/Dom

Get the fuck out of here. The reason people voted him to begin with wasn't enough to condemn anyone as scum.

This has nothing to do with my point. Whether you agree with the reasons some people voted him has nothing to do with whether the focus of a large number of people was ever truly on him.

I don't necessarily find Shazam scummy, so of course, I'm going to stick with my Mario case.

Why is shazam one of your scum reads when he claims he's the most vocal pushing Mario?

???

[Shazam]

Boon is being confusing.

Boon is the one you're confused by? Really? There are at least two other players more confusing: Bulb and Woody.

[Shazam]

Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they're scum. Woody seems to understand that. I'm not sure if boon does, given a couple of the things he's said. His current Woody fos just looks like him fossing Woody for disagreeing... which is honestly just stupid. This post gives the same impression.

I have ardently townread my biggest detractors for the way that they have disagreed with me. I'm honestly not sure if Boon is looking for intent in Woody's posts or if he's just blindly decided that it's him vs Woody.

This entire thing is kind of turning into us vs them (namely, those on the mario wagon refusing to find any common ground with those off it).

I think this is an important post.

It's true and very important that disagreement =/= scummy. But I don't think Woody understands that. I disagreed with him on the basis that he doesn't even know how to make an argument for what he thinks, and that made me scummier in his eyes. But I agree that boon DOESN'T seem to understand that, along with many of the other players who have been distracted from Mario/Dominator.

Us vs them is sorta happening, except that I don't believe that I have refused to find any common ground. I haven't found any common ground, but not because I'm simply refusing. It's because Bulb and Woody have not been using logic and reason. Rather, they have been misreading, misinterpreting, and using extremely poor debate form to cover up the fact that they haven't really made a case at all. If someone made a real case about someone other than Dominator or me, I might find myself agreeing with it. Now if YOU want me to show that Bulb and Woody have been doing this, I suppose I would oblige, painful as it is. I haven't proved it yet, because I don't feel like giving a lecture on debate tactics to people who just want me lynched anyway.

[Shazam]

Can I just point out that Dominator's post rate has dropped significantly since fewer people have been voting him? Could it be more painfully obvious that he is more interested in self-preservation than finding scum?

[Shazam]

Vote 4: Shazam
shazam votes mario after a discussion the two had. On the surface shazam looks to have valid reasoning but if you read the discussion shazam clearly distorts what mario is trying to say. post 79 mario says - town should grill their own scum reads instead of focusing on 1 player. post 81 shazam distorts that and says "so you say town gains info by focusing on 1 player but you want us to do something else" but NOWHERE in post 79 does mario say town gains info from focusing on 1 player. That is a blatant misrep in my opinion and his vote is just a continuation. It shows manipulation from shazam.

In post 249 he tries to explain why he's scum reading mario but it is very clumsy. The way I read it, he basically is still harping on the "focusing on 1 person" thing. Shazam is trying to argue that mario should actually be for people focusing on 1 person because it will ultimately give us info that the person is town or something. Again I don't really understand his logic and anyone who says they agree with him

Shazam claims he is also the most vocal person against mario, but his entire case is based on either a misunderstanding OR a misrep. I'm leaning towards misrep.



Shazam's entire basis of attacking mario was based off what I interpret as a blatant misrep so I am good with my vote. I have also moved NE up the scum list a little, nothing about his push on mario felt genuine.

p.edit - see that is another example of a manipulative post. Shazam has to be scum because no way town is this manipulative

Post 81 used the word "admitted". I have already explained at least once why he was admitting that town gained information by doing what he didn't want them to do. He claimed that we would know scum were ok with the lynch. That would be information. He did not have to actually say those words to admit that. My vote is very clearly not just a continuation of this point, as I have very clearly explained already at least twice. My reason for voting him would hold whether he was right or wrong. I will not be going over any of the above again in this game.

RE: post 249
The way you read it is to me, and should be to everyone, irrelevant. You manage, however, to miss the second part of post 249, which clearly explains away every point that you are trying to make. Of course you don't understand my logic. If you think that my vote had to do with whether he was right or wrong about what we should all be doing, you haven't been paying attention.

Even if you thought I misrepresented him to achieve my goals, why can't you see that he attempted to change the context of the conversation, waffled, and then left the game because of what I was saying? Don't you think that this kind of caving under pressure is scummier than misrepresentation (since you can't determine for sure if it was intentional)? Again, I didn't misrepresent him, but seriously....

Please explain how a post of mine was manipulative. Since the goal of this game is to persuade others to do things (for both town and mafia) I'm really not sure what you mean.

[Shazam]

I wasn't sheeping KK, I just didn't have enough of an inclination to vote for you before I saw that it would make a wagon. Obviously I could be lying about that if I'm scum but that would be a bit silly, no?

Sorry, but I'm not a dumb enough player to make a "mistake" like that... I'm more than anything annoyed at being repeatedly questioned on something so inane. It really is meaningless. I would much rather focus on scumhunting, or at least answering questions about things I've done that are actually meaningful. There's no reason that I would backtrack over something so simple as a the reasoning for a page two vote as either alignment.

I might "backtrack" in the sense that I need to (accurately) justify my past behavior if I'm bothered by the pressure regardless of alignment, because regardless of alignment I'd rather pressure be focused elsewhere.

These posts are very consistent in attitude, and thus seem genuine. They appear to come from a mindset of a townie explaining what he would do as scum (sometimes regardless of alignment). Thus I have a townread on implosion atm, Dominator.

[Shazam]

Can I just point out that Dominator's post rate has dropped significantly since fewer people have been voting him? Could it be more painfully obvious that he is more interested in self-preservation than finding scum?

this post is manipulative because you are implying that the only reason why his post rate has dropped is due to less people voting him and ignoring or not even considering other things like real life stuff.

No, I'm implying it is consistent with such behavior we have already seen anyway.

Post 81 used the word "admitted".

here is the quote.

If everyone agrees on one person, that's a bad sign, as that means mafia are content with the lynch.
We are better off with everyone grilling their scumread, like you are doing with me right now.

So you're admitting that town gains information if we all agree on one person. But you also don't want us to do it.

please bold the part where he admits that town gains info by agreeing on one person.

You clearly didn't read post 523. He can admit it without saying it word for word. When he says "that means mafia are content with the lynch", he is very clearly saying something from which (if it were true) we could draw the conclusion that town would gain information.

[Shazam]

why can't you see that he attempted to change the context of the conversation, waffled, and then left the game because of what I was saying?

1. he did try to change the context of the conversation by trying to get town to spread attention around instead of focusing on 1 person. That's a pro-town move imo.
2. I don't think he waffled at al.
3. We don't know why he left the game. Do you have more info than what is available in the thread? because as far as I can tell he did not provide a reason for replacing out and anything you think is the reason is just pure speculation and you are biased by your scum read.

1. He claimed that he wasn't talking about attention, but rather about literally mislynching someone, which he was not.
2. He did. From post 79 to post 152 he went from "it means mafia are content with the lynch" to "mafia can bus". Blatant reversal of the conclusions he was attempting to draw from the theoretical situation in view.
3. It's true that I don't know for a fact that this is why he left. But it has already been mentioned that this is consistent with scum Mario.

[Shazam]

imo, the only people that even COULD be scumread are Mario/Dom, you (Woodpecker), implosion, Boonskiees, and GrayFoxxx. So I'll ask you this: which of those seems scummiest to you?

Just saw this gem in Shazam's iso... apart from Mario, it reads like a who's-who of my strong townreads <_>. I guess his point is just that no one else had posted enough, but I think I just disagree with that in general. Also idk. There's just so much fucking black-and-white rhetoric going on. It's really starting to piss me off. This is a complex fucking game. Almost nothing is ever fucking black-and-white until it's over. Reads are a good thing. Saying "I don't think anyone could possibly read anyone else as scum outside of these five people" is just patently absurd. It's like trying to say that anyone who disagrees with you is

a priori

wrong, which is just not how productive debate occurs. Maybe I'm just seeing a couple instances of it and it feels like it's everywhere but idk.

We're not going to get anywhere productive like this... although i guess ultimately the problem right now with this game is that there's a large group of lurkers, and I think that a lot of the scum are in the lurkers (including NE, who I'm counting just because no one is in his slot right now so the slot can't post).

Note the "strong" that you apply to your townreads on those players. This is precisely my point. Only those people who post significant content can be strongly read. At that point in the game, and to some extent now, the people I listed were, besides myself, the only people with significant content. Thus I was not saying "people who disagree with me are automatically wrong", but "people who think they find scum outside of these people cannot show themselves to be right".

I agree that at least one lurker is probably scum. But it's easier to find them later.

[Shazam]

Shazam could you answer my question

And implosion what are your thoughts on shazam?

post 526 on this very page?

[Shazam]

You forgot that you scumread me.

If this is addressed to me:
Would you please stop lying and thinking you'll get away with it just because you don't provide backup for anything? This is actually the only post of yours I've found particularly scummy.

If not:
Who are you talking to?

[Shazam]

1. He claimed that he wasn't talking about attention, but rather about literally mislynching someone, which he was not.
2. He did. From post 79 to post 152 he went from "it means mafia are content with the lynch" to "mafia can bus". Blatant reversal of the conclusions he was attempting to draw from the theoretical situation in view.
3. It's true that I don't know for a fact that this is why he left. But it has already been mentioned that this is consistent with scum Mario.

1. I don't really see that as a big deal though. Certainly not enough to lynch somebody over.
2. I don't really see this as waffling because it's the truth. If town all band together and lynches a player and the player flips town, mafia can stay off the wagon to gain town cred. If the person being run up is mafia, mafia can bus for town cred. It's not an either/or type thing like you are making it out to be
3. meta so I will just ignore anything meta. meta is unreliable imo. Plus did you verify it for yourself that he replaces out as scum? did you look at the game(s) to see what the circumstances were? even than I would probably ignore it because meta is bad.


good night

2. HE made it out to be an either/or type thing in post 79. I was responding to HIS framing of the situation and HIS waffling on it.

I was talking to gray

Who hadn't posted since 510? What? VOTE: Bulbazoor
I intentionally gave you the opportunity to say you weren't talking to me even though you obviously were, because I wanted to see if you were lying town or lying scum. This is further clinched by the fact that it didn't make sense to say to Gray. If I'm wrong about this, give me the context of Gray's that you were responding to.

[Shazam]

Taking a look back at the votecount, he said Gray because Gray is the guy voting him and thus someone he knew gave a scumread on him without having to read the thread. Inexcusable. His post of "you forgot you scumread me" (536) is clearly to me, responding to my post about how we can't strongly scumread people with too few posts (535).

[Shazam]

wrote

So we all think each other is scum? What's your point? And what do you mean I'm not helping you with it?

Should have quoted it earlier.

No. "You forgot you scumread me" (536) does not make sense as a response to 508.

You are misunderstanding things. I was asking gray to comeon and tell me if he still scumreads me.

Am I in the Twilight Zone? I do not understand how you think 536 is a proper response to 508.

[Shazam]

LOL, every time I change my vote, there's a huge multi-page back and forth that doesn't mean anything. Can I get both of you to give an opinion on what Bulbazoor did three pages ago? Both of you seem to think the other is scum because they're being unreasonable and disagreeing with you. But Bulbazoor at the very least was far more unreasonable.

[Shazam]

p.edit - I lean town on bulbazor, although I do not like his original push on mario. It was basically "meta" but I don't feel he did enough to convince anyone he even knew mario's meta. But than again boon is the same way. Boon using meta from 1 game thinking he is now some sort of expert in mario meta....

This does not seem to me to deal with Bulbazoor's most recent posts, which is what I wanted you to speak on.

@Shazam - I think Bulbazor got legitimately confused to what was going on. I didn't really see it as scummy, but meh, I didn't pay attention to it much. But I think he forgot what his original comment was. I think he thought you scum read him, then you said you didn't, and he was trying to be a sass head.

So you do think he meant one thing, got caught on it not making sense, then said he meant something else (in other words you agree with me)? And this just means he's a "sass head", not scum? I don't understand. This seems like a double standard so massive that nothing could cause you to vote for Bulb.

[Shazam]

@Shazam - I don't see it as alignment indicative. I've done stuff like that as town. You get him to L-1, I'll hammer him. "Did someone say L-1?" is kind of my catchphrase around here. Day 1, if the game is past 25 pages, I'll hammer basically anyone that isn't in my lean town/town reads. Even then, sometimes I'll second guess my reads, and hammer. I like analyzing flips.

Can you please explain the town motivation in lying about what your post originally meant just because it's wrong? Why wouldn't a townie just say "oh, yeah, that post was wrong"? I left him any recourse besides the truth and he took it, because I told him even the truth would make him look somewhat scummy. You can go check my post after his "scumreading me" post. I said "if (truth), this is your first scummy post. if (lie), explain what you meant". He took lie, by your own admission. Again, why would a townie do this?

@ Woodpecker
Still waiting for your thoughts on this specific part of Bulb's play.

[Shazam]

I don't get the scum motivation in lying there really either, though.

Because, again, I had just told him that he would look scummy if he admitted to the truth of his post. I didn't tell him he would look even scummier if he lied about it. Town shouldn't care enough about looking scummy to lie about something like that.

[Shazam]

You forgot that you scumread me.

If this is addressed to me:
Would you please stop lying and thinking you'll get away with it just because you don't provide backup for anything? This is actually the only post of yours I've found particularly scummy.

If not:
Who are you talking to?

I was talking to gray

wrote

So we all think each other is scum? What's your point? And what do you mean I'm not helping you with it?

Bulb claimed (because I gave him the opportunity) that 536 was a response to 508. Gray, Boon, and I have all agreed that this makes no sense, and Bulb has not been able to explain this. 536 is clearly a response to 535 since the context was me saying people shouldn't scumread the players who haven't been posting much content (i.e. Bulbazoor). He was caught out saying something false in 536 and took an explicit opportunity to lie about his intent by saying it was directed at the only person who WAS scumreading him, Grayfoxxx. So please do one of the following: 1) Explain how 536 is a response to 508. 2) Explain how 541 and following could possibly come from town if 536 is a response to 535. 3) Vote Bulbazoor. Until someone does 1) or 2) to my satisfaction, I will be doing 3).

[Shazam]

I don't really feel he was talking to you about it either, though...it's weird. I don't understand why he would say he was talking to gray, though. It doesn't make sense.

So now you have used the words "confused", "sass head" and "weird" to describe something which you yourself admit is a blatant lie to cover for something that looked scummy. There another word you haven't used....

If I could somehow convince myself that shazam was town (which I am not able to do right now) than the points that bulb made earlier about shazam aren't that good and than that leaves me back to his original push on mario for "meta" but I don't feel like he has a good grasp of mario's meta. I don't think boon did either but at least boon was better able to articulate what about his meta, bulba didn't do as good imo

I can't do much about this. Both of you need to get over it and admit that what Bulb did is not just bad, confused, or weird. It's indicative of scum in such a glaring way that if you don't vote him for this, you are willing to let him get away with anything. In which case we lose if he is scum.

[Shazam]

Well, the last 10 pages of this thread were a waste of my life to read.

I do not like woody or boon at this point because f this exchange. I didn't like woody before either so he is near the top of my scum reads. Boon's meta is very off as he is usually VERY erratic and his reads day one are all over the place - a huge change from this game where they are solid and he is giving a lot more content than normal. I can see a scum boon.

Woodpecker has been arguing game theory and soft defending Mario the entire time without any real cases to be had anywhere. He attacks legitimate cases and misrepresents things that have been said (such as my vote on Mario that was a complete and total misrep in its entirety). I fond him the scummier of the two.

I don't think that he and boon can be scum together - that would be the worst scum team ever (particularly since the scum have day talk). A lynch here would also garner useful information (nailing a scum clears the other and gives insight on Mario)

VOTE: woodpecker

Woodpecker is the one of those two who has listened to reason about Bulbazoor, so I'm thinking he's town if Bulb is scum (which I obviously think is the case). Then again, since you haven't listened to reason about Bulbazoor, and simply said "the last 10 pages were a waste", I don't necessarily expect you to get this. Speaking of Bulb, do you not find the following sequence of events interesting at all?

a) Bulb lies.
b) I call bulb out on his lie, but give him the opportunity to say it wasn't a lie (and thereby appear less scummy) by lying again.
c) He does lie again to seem less scummy.
d) I call him out on his lie again, voting him, and saying that town would just admit that they lied.
e) He admits he lied.

Can you not see he's doing precisely what I tell him will seem more like town, and less like scum? He's incredibly concerned about his appearance, but he still says scummy things. Of course the counter-argument is if he's doing those things, how can I still say he's scum? And the answer is that I tricked him, because I don't actually think that those things make him seem less scummy, I just told him that I did. Also note that my "lying" (really deception) in this situation has a town motivation, while his doesn't.

[Shazam]

WAIT!!!!!!

YOU SAID YOU THOUGHT I WAS BUSING DOM YET YOU PUT HIM IN YOUR TOWN READ SLOT.

VOTE: Anarcchy

This might be the first truly good, original, and interesting point Boon has made. I'd be up for lynching Annarchy, Dom, or Bulb at the moment. FA, I still don't buy as scum.

[Shazam]

Shazam, why did you support this?

Mostly to see how you would react. Partly because you didn't change your vote when your opinion of Dom changed, and thus it seems that Boon's point was still legitimate.

[Shazam]

I want everyone to get caught up, but once that happens, we're beginning to run out of time. It would be good for everyone to think of a few people they'd be ok lynching and start zeroing in on some players that could actually be lynched.

[Shazam]

the last eight pages of my read only did two things:
1) reinforce my Woodpecker townread
2) make me start looking at Shazam as a scumread. I started thinking about this when I saw post 523, and while I could have make this observation earlier, I guess it finally clicked when I saw this: Shazam is pushing heavily on the Mario wagon for something that is essentially a weak-player-tell. it's not very appealing play no, but Mario's 10 posts could easily, EASILY be from a new, weak town player. I have ISO'd Shazam and seen his reasoning, and not only do I disagree that Mario's actions are telling, I also think Shazam is claiming far too much confidence in his read on the Mario slot.

So you think that I'm far too confident that Mario is scum from actions that you see as just incorrect, not scummy. And my incorrectness (from your PoV) makes you think I'm scum. Oh the irony. And don't try to pretend that this "far too much confidence" is anything more than you seeing me as incorrect. If you thought I was correct, the confidence would just seem natural to you.

I'm going to iso FA_Q2 now.

[Shazam]

After iso'ing FA_Q2, all I got was that I agree with virtually everything he's said. He has been very consistent in what he finds scummy, and has generally been a force for keeping the game on track. Now, I haven't seen enough to say that he's town for sure (because of the lack of posting), but I'm definitely leaning that direction.

[Shazam]

two separate ideas.

I think you're incorrect in your reasoning. you're pushing something I don't agree is scummy.
I also think you're scummy for putting up a facade of confidence in Mario/Dom scum. I don't believe that, from a town mindset, you could be truthfully confident in Mario/Dom being scum based on Mario's posts. especially someone like you, who seems intelligent and reasonable. you would be using reasoning far better than what little there is to take from Mario's posts.

This just doesn't make sense. You cannot simultaneously, from just this game, determine that I'm intelligent and reasonable, and that I haven't been using good enough reasoning. If I wasn't using sufficiently good reasoning, you wouldn't have determined that I was reasonable. This seems like you decided you wanted me dead, and then tried to come up with reasons for it.

It's easy to say something's a facade, so I don't have much of a response to that. I am genuinely pretty confident that slot is scum, though, and I think you're simply among those who doesn't quite get why, no matter how much I explain. That's ok with me.

The irony is that you think I voted Mario when I should have just disagreed with him (or perhaps said he was a bad player), while you're voting me when you should have just disagreed with me. Again, if you thought I had a really good reason for voting Mario, you would not be surprised by my confidence. It's because you disagree with me that you find my confidence scummy. The central point is that you disagree with me, you've just added the smoke-and-mirrors "confidence" thing to it.

[Shazam]

why is bulba town?

This is the right question to be asking. Many people seem to be rather confident that he is, considering he admitted to straight up lying to all of us about three times.

ugh

I have to agree with the first three sentences of Shazam's 861. I will at least concede that Shazam probably believes his reasoning is strong regardless of his alignment. furthermore, usually my reads aren't based on a large amount of content either - with Shazam giving himself as a prime example. sorry

UNVOTE:
can I see a case on Dom alone, Shazam? not considering Mario's play, does Dom's give you the same read on the slot?
I realize this question isn't completely fair as your read on the slot is mainly based on Mario's play, but it will help me agree and follow you should you be right, as I'm not convinced by your reasoning thus far

put Shazam right about where pisskop is in my reads

I don't have a case on Dom alone. Since nothing that he has said has stuck out to me as hugely scummy at first glance, looking through his iso for something along these lines seems like forcing the issue. I don't want to try and find reasons to back up a conclusion I've already reached. But since you've asked me, I guess I'll have a second look and see if something strikes me the second time. I'd like to point out that I'm not voting him, though, because I don't still think he's the best lynch for today.

[Shazam]

I don't like this. A bandwagon on kub. Scum points for you

Oh and I forgot in post 133 shaman seems awful eager to vote Mario or foxx

Scum are often eager to vote up someone and it was pretty early in the game and you wanted to vote up me and foxx. It looked scummy IMO

My scum team rn is shazam and implosion

VOTE: shazam

Readoning

Lemme get this straight you guys wanted to lynch Mario because of activity meta and not answering questions? If that is the case you should give me a blank slate

PEdit: if you want me to vote implosion I'd be happy to

These are the relevant quotes. The only things I find scummy about Dom's iso are contained in there. The first three quotes are the entirety of his case against me. Nowhere does he give further reasoning for his vote. So "I don't like this", "Seems eager", and "looked scummy" are the best he can do. And yet when Bulb votes me, he wants reasoning to be given for it. Further, in the last post above, he reveals inadvertently that he never attempted to understand the reasons why I voted Mario in the first place. He skipped over them and said "Shazam seems awful eager to vote Mario" and "Scum are often eager to vote someone".

All of this is to say that his scumread on me is ultra-bad and has been held onto and pushed by him in an ultra-bad fashion. Does that mean I would have a scumread on him if it weren't for Mario? Probably not.

[Shazam]

why is bulba town?

you're going to hate this, but it's mostly meta. I have three notes of posts that I read Bulba town in, and my explanation for all three of them is simply "meta." look at any game bulba has played and you will notice that his actions here totally line up with his town actions

more specifically, comparing his scum game to his town game, there are very distinct differences. I've found that he gives genuine, confident reads as town, while as scum, he plays a little more defensive with little thought given to reads.

I believe 213 is an example of town-bulba. so is 255 where he gives reads on everyone. in particular his read on Stubbs looks genuine to me -

as scum I think he would run with a scumread based on what he said there.

and then there are a bunch of little things that give me a gut townread on Bulba. little comments that he just wouldn't bother to make as scum.

is this an Anna scumslip?

No. That's clearly not what that means. You're trying too hard.

@Annarchy
Meta aside, what traditionally scummy things would Bulb have to do for him to be scum in your eyes? Don't you think that if he can get away with what he did already, he can get away with anything? There comes a point at which we must stop making excuses for someone because we think they're bad. Otherwise, bad players will always win as mafia.

[Shazam]

*bulba. Lol.

why is bulba town?

you're going to hate this, but it's mostly meta. I have three notes of posts that I read Bulba town in, and my explanation for all three of them is simply "meta." look at any game bulba has played and you will notice that his actions here totally line up with his town actions

more specifically, comparing his scum game to his town game, there are very distinct differences. I've found that he gives genuine, confident reads as town, while as scum, he plays a little more defensive with little thought given to reads.

I believe 213 is an example of town-bulba. so is 255 where he gives reads on everyone. in particular his read on Stubbs looks genuine to me - as scum I think he would run with a scumread based on what he said there.
and then there are a bunch of little things that give me a gut townread on Bulba. little comments that he just wouldn't bother to make as scum.

You're right. I do this to a lot of people, and hate when its done to me.

I've played with Mario in one game we can speak of. He was scum who slipped on D2.

*bulba. Lol.

So it's possible for bulba to scumslip? How was lying, being caught in the lie, lying again to try to get out of it, lying himself blue in the face, being caught again, and then admitting it not a scumslip?

[Shazam]

The above post is not for pisskop to answer, but everyone else.

[Shazam]

I'm seeing L-1 on bulb. Might as well claim on the off-chance that it will mean anything.

[Shazam]

Why would you out me!!!! Why the hell? I was the town watcher. That is why I specifcally said that I will be keeping eyes on FA.

Without quoting your role PM, what is it that you can do as the town watcher?

[Shazam]

Too close to the wiki, as Annarchy already pointed out. I wanted to gauge if you would have already known what a watcher was from your role PM, but now I think you went and looked up normal roles on the wiki and decided on claiming watcher. Now I must admit this is also consistent with the mod copying the wiki's statement of the watcher into your role PM. But add the fact that straight-up watchers are generally considered too powerful, and you have yourself a fishy claim. I'm ok with lynching someone else because this is a confirmable role to some extent. But I'd rather lynch bulb than a townread.

PEdit:

also, how common are full watchers in mini normals? I remember seeing somewhere that the general consensus was that they're OP. I'll probably look through recent mini normals to check that

I can watch one person every night and see who, if anyone visited them.

Yes.

And I am also one shot. Wo I am useless after that. Just checked.

And you neglected to say this until you were told it was too OP to believe?

[Shazam]

Sorry, the 956 quote was supposed to be at the top of the post.

[Shazam]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=59806
Here's a mini normal with a two shot town watcher, if anyone was curious. I couldn't find one with a full watcher. But anyway, scumslip is obvious, proceed with lynching.