Mini 1761: Red Neighborhood - Day 2

[Persivul]

On the other hand, SRMP hasn't really taken any hard stances and seems null to me.

I intended to read the entire game before making any comments but I couldn't pass this by. Not taking hard stances isn't null, it's scummy.

[Persivul]

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

Seems to me like he's realised he can no longer fluff his way through the game and has gone quiet.

I've been thinking that for some time now.

[Persivul]

Public Service Announcement:

Someone has recently asked me if crumbing counts as breaking the rules. This has never been the case (since people crumb roles in every game, and often unintentionally). However, I will explain it once and for all this game.

Crumbs are not cryptic messages. Crumbing is dropping hints about your role in the things you say. Not in the actual syntax of it.

e.g.

This is

crumbing

: "I'm 100% positive that ___ is mafia. One another note, I'll likely die tonight."

This is a

cryptic message

: "I wish that you All would stop Messing around. After how far we've Come, we could lose the game, On top of having lynched a Power role."

The capital letters spell out I AM A COP. That's a cryptic message.



tl;dr cryptic messages are "puzzles", more or less. Crumbing is merely letting people make implications.

You can say what you want in your game but IMO what you call a cryptic message is a crumb (and wiki agrees IIRC) and what you call a crumb is a soft claim.

[Persivul]

my role pm says otherwise

Literally my least favourite argument.

Agreed.

[Persivul]

Individual notes, order of least posts to most.

Number one: didn't like the start - 60 and 193 seemed like scum asking question to appear to be engaged, but 260, 290 and following are a lot better.

Hasta: seems like newbtown. 65 reads as genuine curiosity about the setup, which I also have and was a little surprised no one else got into it. I agree with 299. 324 reads OK in context of the entire ISO. Don't like that he's sitting on his initial vote.

Ricastle: town lean based on meta tells that I don't want to go into.

More tomorrow.

[Persivul]

@Garmr: do you have reads on insanity & lowell?

[Persivul]

Sorry Johnny, but I have images turned off.

Why are you responding to me without saying anything?

[Persivul]

Lowell:

36 is too early to call people town but he did that in our last game and he was town. 117 makes a really big deal about inasnity's first major post. 205 - don't like people naming a town block this early and especially putting themselves in it. 328 is better. 373 - when I read this the first time I was on insanity's side and I still am. I don't recall town lowell being this cocky. 385 - repeats he's in a town block. Seriously? Confidence now reading like false bravado. 467 switches to SRMP, an easy target.

I read his D1 play in Open 622 (he was town). In that game he moved his vote around for pressure at first and made no mention of a town block. This game he vote parked on insanity for almost a week and is proclaiming he's in a town block.

DrCirno:

WTF is 19 - double votes dwlee and says he's L-1 when he's L-3. The 148 - 149 - 231 reaction test was weird. How do you read Garmr? I know frogger likes to push a town read to see who jumps on, but I'm not a big fan of the tactic. The rest of the ISO is mostly questions and benign discussion. I don't see a single push.

[Persivul]

I of course put myself in a town block. What's the point of having a town block and not putting oneself in it? Is that supposed to be modesty or something? As for town blocks, I don't use them or not use them particularly, it's just how I read each game. Sometimes I find it easier to identify scum, other times I can identify town. This game I got townreads before I got scumreads. At any rate, I'm not sure the problem you have with "town blocks" generally. What's the difference between that and saying "I think these ppl are scum, while these ppl I think are town?"

In my experience and opinion saying that people are in a town block implies that you have very strong town reads on them that are unlikely to change. Merely saying

I think these people are town

is much weaker. Declaring a town block and putting yourself in it is a form of buddying.

[Persivul]

We need srmp votes

We have 4 days left.

What's your thoughts on Ari and Johnny voting together on Rica?

[Persivul]

@Johnny: what do you think of the SRMP wagon?
Same to Ari.

[Persivul]

Yeah dude,settle down. Also check the wiki:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Breadcrumb
Scroll down to the example. What you're calling prohibited encryption or whatever is in fact breadcrumbing.

Mod Note: I've never heard that being called crumbing. Crumbing from the agmes that I've played in has always been dropping subtle hints in the way you speak. Either way, don't bother relying on the lingo. Just use the examples as prohibited behavior.

In essence, obey the spirit of the law, not the letter, and I won't have any problems.

[Persivul]

Mod doesn't know a crumb from a soft claim, but it's his game so whatever.

[Persivul]

It's meh. As day one wagons go it's not the worst I've seen, it's either right on the money or we're lynching a newer townie who's full of confbias. I was the latter a lot when I first started playing so I'm hesitant.

I haven't studied SRMP's ISO yet but I've been in a scum team with him and in my read through the thread I wasn't seeing scum!SRMP. I think it's a wagon of convenience, and if it flips green it won't tell us much.

[Persivul]

you have been scum with me before?

I actually dont remember that.

Crap, I think I was mixing you up with xtoxm. Your honesty is appreciated but now the meta town read is off the table.

[Persivul]

insanity

: 22 - applying pressure early. Follows with several substantive posts. IIRC the only person to seriously look at Dwlee. Comes off good against Lowell. All looks townie, but in general I like insanity, so I don't fully trust myself to read her objectively.

Nosferatu

: Pressures Dwlee for proclaiming a town block. 156 - votes SRMP with almost no explanation, then fails to push further or try to interact - that's often a scum trait. 194 - not a fan of this. 223 switches vote to rica, then in 269 finally presents a case on SRMP. 390 is weird - quotes Lowell talking about insanity, but then unvotes rica?

BTW I'll do a reads list when I've looked at all the ISOs.

[Persivul]

Aristophanes

: 44 - making too much of a minor comment. overall tone is much more comfortable then I'm used to from him, although IIRC he often cites lack of time. 89 - says rica thing was for reaction, but then in 114 he says it was a legitimate point. Votes insanity and goes nowhere with it, moves back to rica. Several fluffy posts, but they come across natural, as someone genuinely having some fun as opposed to nervous scum padding the post count. On first read i recall 419 read well to me, as I've said almost exactly the same thing in the past.

SRMP

: 144 - indeedly doodly, obviously indubitably. This is a very awkward start. 255 reads like a prodge. 289 is an unneeded prodge, as he had posted 14 hours previously. 292 - quote a wall of other people talking, then basically a bare vote. I'm getting why he's the leading wagon. Most posts are 1 or 2 sentences. Eyes are glazing over in discussion w/ Dwlee. 367 admits he should be scum read for lack of stances. This all looks bad.

[Persivul]

I've been busy at work today. I can hammer later today if nothing more happens.

[Persivul]

Number if you are town you should feel bad.

No, if you're town you should feel bad, for discouraging continued discussion.

[Persivul]

If we end up no lynching because of you I'm voting you tommorow.

More discouraging of discussion. Personally I've never seen a NL due to lack of majority on this site.

[Persivul]

seems like trying to jump off a wagon that he knows will flip town. That logic is also flawed, if I was town I would be defending myself because I wouldent want a mislynch (in reality im just lazy, but you dident know that at this point.) Also hate the vote.

As for scumreads, Dwlee is one, will probably reread for the rest (havent been into this at all)

You get some breathing room, then make a post that makes me wish I could still hammer you.

[Persivul]

There is no further discussion to be had

, unless someone would care to prove otherwise. Let's just get SRMP lynched already.

Yeah, considering that's coming from the other guy being pushed, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree, mmkay? I thought from your tone and our last game that you were town, but this was bad. Why in such a rush?
VOTE: Rica

[Persivul]

to know everyone thinks your bad

Bad player, or scummy?

I'm not a fan of dwlee's play but I don't think he's scum.

[Persivul]

8 hours left, no movement overnight, and we already have a claim - I assume no one objects to a hammer.

VOTE: SRMP

[Persivul]

Aw I like insanity

Did anyone else find this post a little odd?

[Persivul]

Lol!
I'm totally gonna end up being the lynch for today.
That was a good kill, scum, if that was your goal

This too. I think most people view NKA as mostly useless wifom - why are you so concerned by it?

[Persivul]

what's bad about noncommittal?

So you think he would need to reposition knowing for a fact that Shrimp was town? Or you think he would need to be poised to jump to a counterwagon (which was him at the time)?

Remember that you might be playing at a higher/more subtle level than some of us. To beginners (and I think I'm just getting to the beginner level from the absolutely clueless level), yeah, fence-sitting comes across as scummy.

[Persivul]

Garmr, I think your reactions are a bit over the top.
But I'll trust Johnny on you.

IOW, you'll continue to ride Johnny's coattails without really contributing anything.

Pers, why are you criticizing Johnny for playing a fine tuned game rather ran taking it, working with it, and trying to get on his level? You almost seem to discredit him there for being

good

at mafia. Like wtf?

The WTF is that you read what I wrote and take it as criticism and discrediting - unless you're purposely misrepping it. I am watching his play, and after he flips I'll learn something from it.

Rica, care to expand upon how my play will get me killed, and whether or not it's scum indicative?

When you weren't on insanity yesterday, you were mostly on rica. Why now this softball question lobbed to him? This also goes to Johnny - as you were pushing rica late yesterday, I would have thought he'd be the initial focus today.

[Persivul]

2. I've clearly stated on multiple occasions I find Ari scummy just don't like the reasons people have for voting him

How about telling us why? I have a hard time believing you find him scummy after you made what feels like a knee-jerk defense to Garmr's charges. You were pushing rica late yesterday but don't seem interested in that. You say you find Ari scummy but you defend him. I really don't know what to think about you at this point.

[Persivul]

1.Your power role is what you wasted. It's obvious your shift from garmr looks suspicious to garmrs just stupid town has something to do with a power role and people don't want to say it because they are hoping scum is dumb enough not to picked it up which I doubt.

Seriously? Don't give up a possible PR to scum, they might be dumber than you think.

2. You have a great way of showing it your just getting in the way of ari and defending him as hard as possible you are basically killing his wagon. What do you find him scummy for btw?

^^ This.

VOTE: Ari

[Persivul]

There's 30 pages of content. I think you can work on sorting people without answers to those few questions.

[Persivul]

It already has.

[Persivul]

So I guess we're done discussing Ari then?

Some of us have asked you to explain why you find him scummy and you haven't obliged, so no, I don't think we're done discussing him.

[Persivul]

@NumberOne: Yesterday hasta was your preferred target, but now you seem to have dropped that to engage with Lowell. Did your hasta read change?

[Persivul]

His question was valid. I personally take a town block to be a group of people who are viewed as strongly town by most people. A town block isn't IMO just one or two people's town reads. So, I also take exception to people unilaterally proclaiming town blocks. A good town block arises naturally over time, and hopefully contains some objective conftowns. I've never seen scum get in a town block but it would obviously be a really bad situation, hence the concern.

[Persivul]

the lack of resistance on the aristo wagon is frightening.

So why aren't you resisting it?

[Persivul]

@hasta: Coming up on two days without a post. Whatcha doin? Got some reads? Need a vote for motivation?

[Persivul]

Yeah, part of me wants to poke around elsewhere and come back here later in phase if needed, but AristoFarrar (or perhaps Johnophanes?) are just giving me nothing reassuring at all.

[Persivul]

I can agree to this.

VOTE: aristo

He's being obnoxiously coy. I'm not sure why.

Why didn't you note that this was L-1?

[Persivul]

So Ari is scummy to me because of things y'all have no reason to follow, Persy.

I'll decide what I find worthy of following, thanks.

He's not usually as passive at the start of a game, but you don't know that. Usually he wouldn't lurk through a mislynch and then fail to mention it after the fact, but again you wouldn't know that. I haven't seen any reason for anyone who isn't me to lynch ari yet,

I can do meta to check such things. Or, if I read you as town (I did, now I'm not as sure) and a good player I might take your word on it.

so the fact that y'all are ready to lynch him as though yesterday never happened and we weren't short 2 townies is fucking baffling to me.

That's bullshit. Wagons don't always lead to a lynch and you know it. A wagon doesn't accomplish much if you say

oh, we're not really going to lynch you

. If Dwlee hadn't unvoted I would have. There's plenty of time and more than one scum to find.

I also don't like that I'm the only one stepping up to stop a criminally short and unproductive day 2 from happening.

I don't like that you defend someone while supposedly scum reading him, and that you needed pressure to explain your scum read. You could have simply said

Hey, here's why I scum read him, but let's not lynch this early in phase ,

you know.

[Persivul]

Why do you care about the day ending prematurely when you're admittedly in a state of apathy and aren't doing a shred of scum hunting anyway? Same goes to Johnny. Time alone doesn't generate better reads. You guys haven't done anything to advance the game today, so your protests about a shortened phase ring hollow.

[Persivul]

I'm good with a lynch. Even his main defender, Johnny, says he thinks Ari is scummy and thinks the flip will provide good information.

[Persivul]

I think Persivul brings up a good point. Ari, if you want your faction to win -- even beyond your death -- it would be pretty helpful if you could share your thoughts on other players.

On the other side of the coin, however, and as Nosferatu pointed out, it's a bit alarming that collectively we haven't really pursued anyone else today. What is this indicative of? Scum jumping on an easy kill or poor town play..? Not sure yet... but I think it's interesting to note the similarities between yesterday's wagon and today:

Some Random Mafia Player [7]: Dwlee, Garmr, insanity018, Lowell, Nosferatu, Persivul, Ricastle
Aristophanes [5]: Ricastle, Garmr, Persivul, Lowell, Dwlee99

The main thing to stick out is:
- Ricastle was the other big wagon at end of D1
- Ricastle hammered
- Ricastle was first vote on Ari today, and hasn't given much in the way of explanation IIRC.

BUT...I previously brought up to johnophanes that they were pushing rica yesterday and hadn't done so today, and they still didn't push him, or explain why their read had changed, or push anyone else.

[Persivul]

We're 4 days into phase now.

[Persivul]

I get that it's early in phase for a lynch, but Ari just rubs me the wrong way with every single post.

Garmr, are you still convinced on Ari?

[Persivul]

Apparently some people don't understand what intent means.

VOTE: Rica

For reasons from yesterday and bad play today - basically just a naked vote on Ari.

[Persivul]

Rica has said about 30 words this phase. Two of his four posts were literally one word each. I was going to spoiler it but on preview there's not even a need to, there's so little there.

Lol!
I'm totally gonna end up being the lynch for today.
That was a good kill, scum, if that was your goal

Your own play'll be doing that, son.

VOTE: Ari

the lack of resistance on the aristo wagon is frightening.

Johnny is defending him. Were you expecting the whole rest of the scumteam to come to Ari's aid, or something?

Hammer

Ricastle, did I catch you d1?

Pal.

[Persivul]

great point
i think im going to go through persuvil
and dwee

Why didn't you?

[Persivul]

Agreed. My view of Ari hasn't changed, but I'm tired of the L-1 stalemate. Of course maybe that's what johnophanes were counting on.

[Persivul]

Fe = iron, so irony. I'd rather Ari play the game than make weak jokes.

[Persivul]

Checked your ISO - it's pretty much short conversational posts that make you look busy but don't really pressure anyone.

[Persivul]

@Numberone: I agree with you on the townbloc issue, but looking at your ISO, you only have 15 posts and 7 of them, including the most recent, reference it. You're kinda building a career on it. What else is on your mind?

[Persivul]

the lack of resistance on the aristo wagon is frightening.

Johnny is defending him. Were you expecting the whole rest of the scumteam to come to Ari's aid, or something?

Usually wagons on scum have counter wagons, but there are none here.

This, plus ari's remark that if he were scum being bussed it would have happened by now, have me not liking that wagon much.

[Persivul]

@Nos: what's your take on rica? Looked like you were scum reading him yesterday, but you're not voting.

[Persivul]

What about his posting today? It's pretty crappy.

[Persivul]

So put a vote on him...

[Persivul]

Ricastle's ISO looks like shit, and he's announced that he isn't going to play the game, but neither is he going to replace. Someone just hammer him FFS.

[Persivul]

Yes, it was bad play, but it pretty much clears Garmr as town, so talking about it is pointless.

And speaking of bad play, if we have a doc they have some explaining to do. Johnny denied being cop but that's standard.

[Persivul]

And if garmr is a godfather I'll be pissed af.

Would you be scum reading him if not for the implied cop inno?

[Persivul]

cop guilty.

??

[Persivul]

Reviewing droog's ISO:

Pretends that he'll vote ari but doesn't:
830 - "i am willing to hammer ari...i want to develop a few other reads give everyone some time and hammer"
842 - "i think im going to go through persuvil"

Explains it in 863: "i think im losing mafia fever ftm" - in my experience apathy claims come from scum more than town

921 - "id be willing to lynch rica" - but doesn't; "but is there a reason we moved off ari?" yeah, no one would hammer

934 - Now you don't like the rica wagon and again ask about Ari, who you said you would hammer but didn't.

939 - more of the same

This looks like scum who wants to look like he's participating, but doesn't want his name actually showing up in lynch VCs.

VOTE: droog

[Persivul]

Yes, that was a factor in voting Ari before. He since seems more engaged, but that could be scum trying to town it up.

[Persivul]

I'm talking about D1, and he only voted you after it didn't mean anything. As he noted himself: "the

backoff

on the ari wagon has me really concerned."

[Persivul]

Pers, his posturing to vote me without voting was on D2, this vote, which he used as a defense of it, occurred on D1.

Just trying to avoid confusion, since your original points and his response are incongruent.

Now you are discussing D1, yes, but only because he brought it us as a defense of his D2 play.

I was going by ISO and not checking the full context, so I'll take your word for it. But I don't think droog has been pressured at all since he came in. What's your read on him?

[Persivul]

It's not difficult to see a case on Number1. There's al;most nothing to his ISO. I believe it's the lowest count of living players. He looked pretty good D1, but then he started lurking and backed off of Hasta, who had been his main scum read. He's a good lynch target. Scum could easily have been lying low while the (presumably TvT) Garmr v. Johnny battle was going on.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Number 1

[Persivul]

Persivul, what are you're thoughts on me?

Scummy. It wouldn't surprise me if you and Number 1 are both scum, and Number 1 was doing some distancing D1.

[Persivul]

Just lynch this slot.

[Persivul]

But it pings me to see people -- Lowell, Pers, Ari, Dwlee -- be okay with a vote on *either* me or him, without trying to zone in on one.

As I noted, #1's weak push on you D1, followed by a change of heart due to literally one post of yours, could very easily be distancing.

[Persivul]

NSS

[Persivul]

NSS = No Shit, Sherlock

[Persivul]

I'm tempted to vote ari just so if we're wrong I can blame garmr tbh.

I was more thinking that if he's right and we don't lynch ari after all his pushes, we're gonna feel pretty stupid. I'm not voting ari because whenever we get him to L-1 no one will hammer. If he gets another vote I'll consider hammering.

[Persivul]

VOTE: ari

[Persivul]

We gotz dis lowell.

So I think you and nos are town. So we just need to find the fourth town. Who you thinkin is the fourth town?

Between persivul and hasta for me.

I'll accept Dwlee and Nos as town, but at this point not Lowell.

[Persivul]

not quite, D

Mod, what's the deal with #1, are we getting a replace?

droog is also noticeable by his absence.

[Persivul]

Day 4 will end in

612

days, 5 hours, 43 minutes

[Persivul]

VOTE: Number One

It's now been 2.5 days since this was put up. Assuming this was a standard 10:3 setup, we're now in 4:3 lylo. If this is TvT, then:

- if scum have day talk they would definitely have quicklynched
- without daytalk, they still would likely have done a quicklynch by now, but it's less sure

So, one of Nos and #1 are likely scum.

Fos: Number One

[Persivul]

The temptation to vote numero uno is strong.

No, we shouldn't vote until we have 4 FoS's. I'm somewhat concerned that Nos voted right off, but overall I still like Nos a lot better than #1.

[Persivul]

Thanks - sorry to be a stickler about it.

VOTE: Number One

[Persivul]

If you three aren't scum I will eat my hat...

If we three were scum this would be over already.

[Persivul]

The temptation to vote numero uno is strong.

fos number one

there we have 4.

oh wait okay so I thought we were lynching hasta for some reason. So yea hasta hasn't quick hammered either. Either all of the scum team is on number right now or number is scum.

Or maybe you and #1 are scum. WTF, I find it hard to believe after typing out "numero uno" and "number one" that you didn't realize who we were talking about.

[Persivul]

GG!

[Persivul]

if nos was scum then I can be salty

[Persivul]

This game was also very town sided in role set up so scum did very well while the town power roles wasted them.

Yeah, as we had 2 1X abilities I'm a little surprised that town had 3 full-time abilities.