Mini 1758: Game Over

[tictac]

VOTE: Camn
Ya know why.

Who's Camn Newton?

[tictac]

Triple post is a no-no

Ya gonna hate me later in the game.

camns entry was a overdone, but I'm willing to wait until she has time to squirm properly.

UpLate grabbing for townpoints. 'pizzazz' was funny thou.

Rando should put on pants. Use this:
Also apparently forgot where his vote was in 26. Not a mistake I expect from a newb. Seems to be trying to stretch the RVS. Scummy.

RC scummy for inconsistent spell-check usage.

RC always lights up any game he's in, ckd is pretty cool and I expect big things now that he has a computer.

Buddy harder, why dontcha?

Why can't I vote for Y'all? There is a mistake in the world.

VOTE: Rando

[tictac]

camn has also refused to believe me.

but im always right so diescumdie

Saying this when your vote isn't on camn.

[tictac]

I appreciate it, and thinks for keeping it light hearted.

Ya telling me this isn't a case of auto-correct gone wrong?

[tictac]

What the fuck are you trying to do.

Should be obvious.

[tictac]

pushing a case on joke-post 26? Why would you do that?

Why wouldn't I?
Ya missing the point, but that's alright.

[tictac]

Because its just pushing a case that isent really a case.

Ya. Let's all sit around making jokes forever. I bet you'd like that.

[tictac]

I am aware of how RVS works. RVS leads to non-RVS. That is the entire point of RVS.
Your Elyse vote is real then?

It's not the joke. It's the mindset behind the joke. (forgetting the vote)
It's the wanting to keep on joking instead of getting the fuck out of RVS.

[tictac]

Oi, and my elyse vote wasent serious, we were in rvs until your decent-sized post. My vote was before that so it was a rvs vote.

UNVOTE:

Who is scum then?

[tictac]

I didn't know you were in this game...

that's why I invited him to join me in this game.

Yeah. That is weird.
But is it scum-weird or newb-weird?

And I'm assuming the scumread on RC for not using spellcheck is a joke

Eh. Let's say 90% joke.
I think he did spell-check that one post. Bit weird RC being who he is. I'd vote on that if I didn't have better.

[tictac]

no help me bus camn please.

Why are you still on that? There's no point until she can reply properly.
You aren't even voting for her.

[tictac]

I agree with RC +1

Ya give points for unnecessary defending? Interesting.

[tictac]

I'm expressing my thoughts on the absurdity of Zulfy's post by proposing an equally absurd alternative.

Why you FoSing me you biger.

Well. I'm not anymore, cause thought sync.

[tictac]

We lynch Random.

Flips green we lynch tictac.
Flips red we lynch me for setting up lynch trains

It's page 4. You think I must be scum if I go after town on page 4?
How much mafia exp do you have?

Sounds like chaining mislynches to me.
VOTE: Zulfy

[tictac]

Random lynch is random lynch

[tictac]

VOTE: tictac

Such an easy vote and such a bad vote as well.
Zulfy's post was derpy but not explicitly scummy :S

What is your read on him then?
Why is Zult vote worse than Rando vote?

[tictac]

RC:

I'm expressing my thoughts on the absurdity of Zulfy's post by proposing an equally absurd alternative.

Doesn't sound like RCs immediate thought about 87 was 'joke'.
Not sure it was a joke. Sure didn't sound like one to me.

Can we as a group can it with the "I'm doing a scummy thing for LOLs" type of jokes?
Makes it kinda hard to distinguish actual scummy things.

camn:
I do agree that she might well be scum. She knows I will be on guard against her buddying me again, so it makes sense her scum tactic would be to push me at the earliest opportunity.
It's not like what I was going for with the Rando push is that hard to get.
PC did pretty much the same thing in out previous game after all.
Really weird that she seems to think me having page 3 reasons on page 3 is scummy. I don't buy it.

Also keeping her options open with Rando.
I don't like 'not having an avatar is scummy'. One of of the townies in the last game didn't have one for a large part of day 1. I would like Rando to get an avatar, but calling not having one scummy? No.
I don't like 'this is squirming'. Randos reaction to my push was pretty towny actually, what with trying to figure out why I was pushing instead of jumping to OMGUS.

Zulfy:

no help me bus camn please.

Why are you still on that? There's no point until she can reply properly.
You aren't even voting for her.

Is the extension of RVS scummy here? Also follow your own advice.

Whut? You weren't VLA like camn was. Weird defense.

Random lynch is random lynch

If extending RVS is scummy so is this +1

Why? All jokes are scummy now?
There is a difference between joking occasionally and doing nothing

but

joking.

Not liking the +1 thing btw. I feel like your vote should already be on someone if you are forming suspicious. Feels too careful.

On balance, I am feeling this
VOTE: camn

[tictac]

I feel like the avatar argument was bordering absurd, but again, I wouldn't be the one to know. Can someone else please clarify whether camn's gripe was legitimate for me?

To clarify, I don't mean legitimate as in serious, I mean as in justified.

I don't think it is.

[tictac]

I mean it's only page 7 but somehow I get the impression that Tic and Camn are both scum and decided to double bus each other.

There's a reverse-tag? Neato.
You thought the same thing in the last game even with the crossvote proving you wrong.
That should tell you something.

[tictac]

Why?

[tictac]

Not by the hair on my chinny chin chin.

btw Ika is still voting for me can we power wagon him?

Why?
Do you think I'm scum or don't ya?

[tictac]

@farmer
You are way quieter here than ya were on 1380.
Why?

[tictac]

I do!

Ika is bugging me though :p

Why? He hasn't done anything.
Am I scummier than camn?

[tictac]

Every single post by Camn pings my gut

Then, why am I on that wagon all by my lonesome?

[tictac]

Some reads:

A reads-list in response to me pointing out that your play is different from 1380, where your early play was list heavy.
Looks more like you are correcting your play to match the earlier game, than an attempt to contribute.

Camn seems like a townie.

Why?

RC seems like a townie who's been told that if he's NK'ed he'd be killed in real life, too.

I agree.
Why do

you

think so? Being afraid of getting lynched is usually seen as a scum-tell.

Tictac is scummy because of the way his posts appear to stretch the facts to support the vote that would be most fashionable.
Everyone else is null (I'd say everyone else is a little scummy, but then they can't all be scum).

What facts am I stretching?
I can see the camn-vote as 'fashionable'. Rando & Zulf not so much. Your reasons to think so?

[tictac]

I gotta get back to bussing

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Tictac

I am assuming this is because Ika entering the game means the chance of pushing the mislynch through increased.
(Playstyle note in case someone is unaware: Ika is known for hammering anything that gets to L-1 as both alignments)

@camn Do give your reasoning here, if I'm wrong.

[tictac]

@tictac
Never heard of Ika, I don't think... But you feel different than our last game, and Id like to see you squirm.
Plus your heat on me is total crapcasery, so you suck.

Funny cause you are reading pretty much the same to me. The policies stated as scumreads, the surfacy reading, the exaggerated confidence, 'this is squrming'. Everything the same.
Only thing that is different is the buddying, and I already said why I think you'd reverse your behavior on that.

I can see why you'd think my play is different thou. Replacing in is different than starting form scratch.
I am also somewhat less motivated here. The other game had Plot & Rask in it who I really wanted to beat or win with. I've yet to find similar inspiration here. Attitudes like Ikas 'not gonna read the game' kinda eat at my will to win.

Why did you unvote me in 178 if you wanna see me squirm?

[tictac]

Please. The replacing is why you were glorious town then, and scum now?
I don't think so.

Did ya get tired in the middle of the post and stop reading?
Nice misrep of what I said.

[tictac]

I enjoyed playing with you and Cowbells last time, although I hated being scum against you. The deception kills me. So, coming into this game, I was hoping we would be in the same team. I still am! But this time around, being town, I totally am unsure if YOU guys are town, so you need to be tested.

Eh. 'Test' away then. Not sure what you expect to get from a vote with no reasoning to give it weight thou.
I do like you guys. Too bad you drew scum agayn.

Pretty sure bells is town thou.
His scumread on me is consistent with how he was reading me last game. I think he'd over-estimate his ability to read me if he was scum.

[tictac]

aand there he goes making me unsure again..

[tictac]

I still hate all of SirCakez's posts though and I implore people to look at his ISO.

Not sure about the "a cheap way for you to hop on the wagon." thing.
Why would he want to get on camn especially? Looks more like lazy reading to me.

I liked the Random vote but not that he stuck to it for as long as he did and the shifting reasons to get off.

I like 118 and 120, but not the lack of follow-up.

Don't like that UpTooLate needed to prod him to give a read on me despite voting for me.

Could well be scum, but not really seeing the scum in every post.
Do you want to make a more detailed case?

[tictac]

On phone.
Loki is readin incrediblt newbtown to me.
That said @loki yer tunneling on the Elyse thing. She's reading very town too.
Prev edit. Ok. Farmer town as well

[tictac]

Yeah that's fine. It's just the way the tictac scum push disappeared after she had been pushing it basically the whole game is what was odd.

True. She seems to be pushing ya way more enthusiastically than she ever did me. It's weird.
Her vote reflects well on ya, but eh day1 association.

Your own actions not so much.
Really not liking the way you only came alive once you had a wagon on ya.
Makes me think ya could have been contributing/pushing things all this time, but chose to not do so

Tictac ISO adventure

Why put this in a spoiler? Not feeling very confident about yer stuff are ya? I'm un-spoilering.

58 - Super off post, wanted to let camn squirm properly?

Why did ya sheep that post if ya felt it was off?
What is wrong with thinking early-day pressure is wasted on people who are VLA?

66 and 69 - Two waved questions, "should be obvious" and "you're missing the point" used to avoid answering questions

Ya. Answering with "I'm doing a reaction-test" would have been super productive

94 - Says his vote on RC for not using spellcheck is only 90% a joke?

I didn't vote RC for that. Not paying very much attention to how I vote as long as it isn't on you are ya? Explained the spellcheck thing in the post ya linked.

96 - This is basically the thing everyone started scumreading me for. Asks RC why he's still voting camn when it was pretty obvious RC wasn't going to explain at that point.

RC did answer in 97.

98 - Implies he doesn't think unneccesary defense is scummy.

1) No it doesn't
2) why would it be scummy if I did think that?

102 - Already dissected earlier why this was a terrible vote.

Meh. Didn't think 87 was a joke. Still not sure it was, though it does seem to be the prevailing opinion here that it was.

169 - Also already dissected why this vote was bad. Also jumps on Zulfy in the same post but never follows up.

quoting the relevant bit from earlier post

Uses the excuse of "she'll push me early as scum" and her thinking page 3 reasons is scummy to vote which are both bad reasons.

Why are these bad reasons?

The "not having an avatar is scummy" part is also bad because there's no scum motivation in that push

"I want to look like I have scumreads" is a scum motivation

since no one agreed with her and she was taking a ton of flak for it but kept her stance.

She didn't keep the stance. "Lets be real tho- pressure votes are pressure votes. "

213 - Asks a pointless rhetorical question to RC

RC was scumreading me, but wanting to wagon Ika. I thought it was weird so I asked why. How is this either pointless or rhetorical?

273 - Uses ika being in the game to say camn is pushing a mislynch, which is terrible reasoning.

Why?

278 - Admits that basically his entire scumread on camn is based on meta and nothing else.

"The policies stated as scumreads, the surfacy reading, the exaggerated confidence, 'this is squrming'."
'this is squirming' is the only part in that that isn't scummy even without meta.
And what exactly is scummy about having a meta read?

341 - Gives a bunch of unreasoned town reads, super fluffy

Ya. Trying to break up a TvT is clearly scum motivated
Farmer read is cause I noticed him trying to do the same thing when I first tried to post.

"Please please can't we Lynch anyone but me? Please!! ANYONE BUT ME!!". -cakez

These two posts screamed conf bias to me.

I'm trying to push my scumreads

and you turned it into "desperate to lynch anyone else".
And I asked where your tictac scumread went since I didn't see where it went earlier and you called it a distraction.

According to your readslist Loki is top-town, and Zulf is in the middle. How is pushing these people 'pushing for a scumread'?
Why not push Ika who ya said was your #2 scumread?
I'm thinking camn has a point about you just wanting to lynch anyone who isn't you.

Not gonna put ya on L-1

yet

cause that's as good as hammering with Ika in the game. We have time.

Can explain any of these reads if wanted.

Why did ya put RC as top-town?

[tictac]

422 reads very much like "I need reasons to scumread tictac, so I am going into his ISO to find some"

[tictac]

The same applies to you. This is your third wagon hop now and this scumread just conveniently developed when I became the counterwagon. You're joining any wagons you can to get pressure off yourself.

You'r not my counterwagon. I don't have a wagon on me.
I don't think I've been in much actual danger of getting lynched yet. I don't really count "I'm bussing" votes as real pressure.
The scumread "conveniently developed" when you did scummy things.

[tictac]

There was a wagon on you but it dissipated when the one on me started up. So yeah a counterwagon to a dead wagon.

You were saying that I'm scumreading you to get pressure off myself when there is no pressure on me.
I don't really care if the term 'counterwagon' technically applies.

[tictac]

ooo. Scary

[tictac]

Yes fear me rabbit, I am coming to hang you from a rope.

Spoiler: On Noes!!

prev-edit: Yeah. We shouldn't be rushing to hang right at this minute. Plenty of time left to probe.

[tictac]

@acryon What's your read on Cake?

[tictac]

Sorry that question didn't quite work out how you wanted it to Tictac.

Nah. Aside for the false dichotomy that's a good answer.
Didn't expect you to be scumreading him after 434.

What's your read on camn?

[tictac]

I don't think it was a false dichotomy. You acted like you weren't at all bothered by it, but then made a point to address every little thing he mentioned. For someone who didn't think there was any pressure on him, you sure respected it a lot enough to respond as you did.

Just showing how made-up his push on me was, but I can see how you might think that.

With false dichotomy, I meant that I am not the only person who pushed him, so framing your answer as tictac vs. Cakes was kinda weird.
It's ok to scumread me, but kinda un-related to your Cake-read, don't you think?

[tictac]

I promise.

I'll hold you to that
VOTE: Ika

[tictac]

Ika is very busy with IRL stuff atm so I wouldn't read too much into that.

He does have posts elsewhere.

[tictac]

What reasoning do you have to sheep Elyse here?

I townread her strongly, and I believe meta is a valid reason to suspect someone.

[tictac]

What reasoning do you have to sheep Elyse here?

I townread her strongly, and I believe meta is a valid reason to suspect someone.

You believe it's valid enough to have literally zero other reasoning?

Yeah. Pattern recognition is where humans are strong.
If you want more then it would be stupid of her to lie about this, because it's easily and un-ambiguously checked.

And why do you strongly townread her?

Early mindset had strong feeling of 'solve the game'.
Why would she push Cake when she could have joined my wagon?
Why would she now push Ika as scum? Even if Ika is town that's still a bad lynch for scum. They could have gotten an active townie instead.

[tictac]

Just because she's telling the truth doesn't mean it's a good reason.

Agree to disagree. As meta goes this is a really simple pattern. I think it's reliable.

While there is some validity to solving the game, without flips you can't really speculate on the other things. There are any number of reasons to do the things above as scum. Set up future lynches, stay off the main wagons, etc.

All kinds of things can be speculated on. Sure there isn't much good info on day 1, but there is much to be seen in what people do with the little they have. How they think in addition to how valid their thinking is.
If she just wanted to stay off the main wagon, she'd have pushed less.
I guess setting up future lynches might be valid on Cakes. I don't think it is on Ika. She'd be setting herself up for a fall in town-standing tomorrow for little reason to do so if Ika flips town.

[tictac]

I wasn't one of the ones Elyse was talking about, but, for example, you scum lurked to a large degree in Uncouth Mafia, Star Trek DS9, Spring Waltz, and Open 609 and semi-lurked in Inorganic Chemistry and Open 607.

You were active town in

Mini 1758

, NY 182, Micro 537, and Opens 606, 610, 611, 613, 614, and 618.

These were the first games of yours I came across when I went looking, so it's not like I cherrypicked them, and in none did I see you as lurker town.

Mini 1758 is what we are playing now. How did it come to be included in a list of games Ika was active town in?

I'd like you to describe your research in as much detail as possible, particularly the selection of games to include.
Because I am

kinda

doubting the sincerity of your research here.

VOTE: Farmer

[tictac]

Possibly.

[tictac]

I said the hammer sucked, not the wagon. As I said I still wanted to talk to Loki and Tictac more.
And I had been scumreading ika for forever so obviously I was going to jump on the wagon. Tictac made no mention of an ika scumread at all then was the second vote on the wagon? I don't buy it.

I took the existence of Ikas lurker-meta on faith.
I don't think I was wrong to do so. At least Ika himself seems to think the meta-tell is a good one here:
Subject: Micro 537: the Embodiment of Scarlet Devil (Game Over)

I thought ika was lurky as scum?

Lurking as scum is the easiest thing to break.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, thats rich, like you you think its jsut a snap of the finger thing i can break... AHAHAHAHAHAHHA thats funny

[tictac]

I agree tictac.. What do you think about Cakez immediately going after people on the wagon tho?
Not just yourself, but also Elyse, Farmer AND SRMP.

That's a lot of shit-slinging for a wagon on someone he allegedly was scumreading, no?

Well, the wagon

did

reach completion way too fast for my liking.
Elyse & Farmed did both take a dip for me too, and the Rando "I'm just pressuring, don't blame me if this goes to lynch" attitude was sketch as hell.
Can't really say I disagree with those points.

[tictac]

When did I attack SRMP, Elyse and Farmer?

I also don't like how Elyse pushed this early hammer on ika. Plain Farmer and Elyse both dropping in my reads.

I also dislike how SRMP just popped in to vote ika and failed to comment on anything in the thread from the past two days.

[tictac]

I began by clicking on the link to ika's threads in his profile to find games he was in.

You didn't include machina mafia, minis 1737 or 1734 (first 3 marked completed games on Ikas history. Possible some of those were only recently marked completed, but I doubt all of them were.)

There were a lot of threads that weren't game threads, so I changed the filter so that it organized posts by forum. However, I couldn't sort by date with this filter,

Blitz games come up first, but ok. I would have discarded those, if I was attempting what you say you tried.
You didn't include White Flag Mafia[TM2015](first actual game that comes up).. lots of threads that aren't main game threads come up first, I would have abandoned this approach too.
However it does seem to be sub-sorting by date by default. Weird that is your gripe with it.

and I was more interested in recent games, so I instead just looked in the game forums themselves for games ika was in.

But you apparently didn't look at completed games subforum of little italy.(didn't include minis 1707,1734,1737)
Which forums did you check? I'm trying to re-create your experience here, to see if it makes sense. As much detail as you can give will be useful.

Those are the games I found, and he seems to disproportionately prefer Opens. "Mini 1758" is apparently a malapropism for the Mini I found, I can't remember which.

Malaprotism does not sufficiently explain the inclusion of this game to me, since "1758" isn't a word.
I will confirm that the games you listed as having town-Ika did, and ones you listed as having a scum-Ika did.

[tictac]

Other than farmer's potential scumslip and the iffy hammer, I'm not seeing too much that's sticking out atm, but this is interesting:

Only played once with Elyse and she was scum and it was a long time ago, but in this game she seems to be bullying people into defending themselves, and then acts surprised that they aren't scumhunting. Scumhunting is good. But players with power and confidence can easily steamroll a town into burning down a townie through their tunneling, and it seem like this is what Elyse is doing.

Doing a reread and I think I missed this yesterday. I've had an off feeling about Elyse this whole game, and I was trying to figure out if it was a simple misread of her personality/playstyle or what. But this is exactly what she's doing. I also noticed that she completely ignored this, and switched her vote to Ika, a pretty easy lurker wagon. I'm going to look more into this.

I take objection to misrepping what dead people said.
Quoting the rest of that post.

This isn't alignment-indicative

, but I think the rest of the town needs to be careful of buying into the confidence as opposed to the case. It's Day 1 people; any person that has an incredible scum-case on a player is lying to you.

[tictac]

Not without intent.
pedit: crap

[tictac]

The intention wasn't to misrep, it was to highlight the specific part that I could identify with. I not once said this statement was scum-indicative
(snip)
450 Elyse starts the Ika wagon without acknowledging acryon's statements about her previous scumplay and

it being similar to her play in this game.

How is that not a misrep?
acryon never said Elyse was playing similarly to her scumgame.
He was really explicit about

not

thinking the behavior was alignment indicative.

[tictac]

Only played once with Elyse and she was scum and it was a long time ago, but

in this game

she seems to be bullying people into defending themselves, and then acts surprised that they aren't scumhunting. Scumhunting is good. But players with power and confidence can easily steamroll a town into burning down a townie through their tunneling,

and it seem like this is what Elyse is doing.

This isn't alignment-indicative, but I think the rest of the town needs to be careful of buying into the confidence as opposed to the case. It's Day 1 people; any person that has an incredible scum-case on a player is lying to you.

Do you just not want to see it?

Tell me where I directly said it was alignment indicative. I was pointing out observations he was making and the actions that followed them. I have not once said that acryon said that she was scummy because of it.

In 594 you didn't explicitly say it, but your edit on the post did imply acryon thinking Elyse was scum
Then you did explicitly say that acryon thought Elyse was scum for meta reasons.

her previous scumplay and

it being similar to her play in this game

.

which he didn't.

Does Elyse tunnel as scum a lot? I thought that was indicative of town but if she does it as scum I might be wrong.

Well

I don't know

for sure, and

it's not actually alignment-indicative either way

. It's more a warning to the town to not buy into something just because the louder person is saying it.

TicTac do you think that Elyse's destructive confidence is scum-indicative?

I don't think it's a strong tell but I do think it's scummy.
I think a townie would be more likely to lose confidence and would change behavior on day 2.

[tictac]

The speed of this cakez wagon is actually really disturbing.

Agreed.

[tictac]

I'm not seeing informed perspective nor softclaiming here.
Maybe on the rolefishing, but if that is the case he went about it like a bull in a china shop.
Looks more like anti-town behaviour than anything alignment indicative.

Karma-wagon reads like a policy lynch on someone who has played pretty decently so far and then made a single (albeit large) mistake.
He is far from confscum.

I'd be up for a camn wagon instead.
777 reads me as both town and scum. Waffling is one thing, holding two diametrically opposed views at the same time is another.
"likely probtown" reads like she is really reluctant to give a townread,on RC but feels like she has to.
Pushing for

another

stub of a day isn't helping either.

[tictac]

wtf is with people claiming all over the place.

[tictac]

I am the tracker. No one seemed to question why I didn't hammer Scakes today when I was so hot on lynching him yesterday. I tracked him last night and he did nothing.

I will say that this is a bad choice of a target, if you are being honest here.
Chances of Cakes being chosen to make a kill, were pretty much nil if he is mafia.

[tictac]

You saw in our newbie....a softclaiming is an obvious thing. Which CKD knows. He was setting up this 'claim'.

He was setting up from dusk yesterday then. How he reacted to RC calling him obvtown is not how a VT reacts.
I'll do a re-read on him tomorrow.

[tictac]

I am the tracker. No one seemed to question why I didn't hammer Scakes today when I was so hot on lynching him yesterday. I tracked him last night and he did nothing.

I will say that this is a bad choice of a target, if you are being honest here.
Chances of Cakes being chosen to make a kill, were pretty much nil if he is mafia.

I forgot Cakes claimed VT.
So. Makes sense as fakeclaimed target, doesn't make sense as actual target.
I'm no longer opposed to karma lynch.

camns angle to it is still nonsense thou.

Still opposed to short day, so don't expect a hammer any time soon.

[tictac]

Cakes:
The push on me day 1 was too convenient, specially since he didn't put energy into trying to push anything before he got heat on him.
Also the points he raised were largely about disagreeing with the things I said. Agree/disagree scumreading tends to be a scumtell.
Ika wagon was too fast and makes sense as scum trying to get heat off him.
On the other hand I like his read progression on day 2.
scumlean.

ckd:
770 actually can be read as a cop soft "I am town and I know he is town". This is not what camn meant, I don't think, or she would have said so.
"it's anti-town for me to explain" reads like "it would be anti-town to outright say I think you guys are masons". Not seeing a soft there.
Cakes target doesn't make sense from an experienced player. Targetting Cakes when there was practically no chance he would be chosen to make a nightkill. While it's true he could have gotten a scum PR with it, the chances of getting an usable result were higher for practically any other player. It's not like using tracking on scumreads makes much sense even if they aren't widely scumread. Info roles in general are better suited sorting players who can't be otherwise sorted (nulls). As an experienced player ckd should know this.
On the other hand a claimed VT is a safe target to fakeclaim as scum.
He was reading town to me before this whole hulabaloo thou, and that does count for something.
scumlean

camn:
dislike 'confscum', dislike pushing for early lynch, dislike the softing charge on ckd since the posts she points to do not at all look like a softs to me. She did look better to me on the latter end of day 1, but now she is back at her old scum-ways. Way too much certainty for someone who is actually town. Pushing more with personality than with actual reasons. I like Cakes point about PR speculation.
I did think the ultimatum was towny of her, but it's drowned out by being otherwise scummy.
scum

Plain farmer:
I need to do more research here. read pending.

lokiben:
Still looks clearly towny to me, but if cakes and Elyse are both town then loki is probably scum for "I strongly believe this to be TvS"
I did dislike him telling me what I can and can't find relevant in this game, but I have been told similar things by townies before.
town for now.

Random:
I'm gut reading him as scum, but I tend to do that with more casual newbs. He will have to wait until I can do POE or I get a strong signal either way.
null.

update: camn does make a good point in 843.
I do get the feeling from players who have commented on ckd, that he is prone to emotion.
@people who have played with ckd before: How likely would he be to act anti-town because he was angry?

[tictac]

actually can be read as a cop soft "I am town and I know he is town". This is not what camn meant, I don't think, or she would have said so.

No..this is exactly how I read the whole exchange.

Then, why not include 770 when you were listing softs in 840?
The stuff you posted doesn't look like softing.

[tictac]

I know I looked in either (maybe both) of Little Italy and Coney Island. The Mini 1758 is actually one of the games from those forums. I can't remember anything about it beyond what I've said so far.

Spoiler: Where those games can actually be found

Uncouth Mafia: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=6567302 (completed large theme)
DS9: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7095553 (completed large theme)
Spring Waltz http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=6703724 (completed large theme)
Open 609 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7229912 (central park)

Inorganic Chemistry http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7102443 (completed large theme)
Open 607.http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7260478 (central park)
NY 182 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=6693577 (completed large normal)
Micro 537 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7298292 (Mayfair club)

Opens:
606 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7368403 (Central park)
610 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7319113 (Central park)
611 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7224301 (Central park)
613 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7305435 (Central park)
614 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7325654 (Central Park)
618 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=64287 (Central Park)

No games from Little Italy nor Coney Island were included in the meta.

Since Farmer doesn't seem to know where the games in his meta come from, I'm gonna conclude that he didn't actually spend significant amount of time doing meta reading in Central Park or completed large themes forums. More likely to be someone elses work that he copy-pasted.
He's scum.

[tictac]

Plus...he has since HARDCLAIMED.
So any previous shenanigans were certainly him crumbing, and not any Mason nonsense.

This doesn't follow at all.

If you can find some way to turn that bit about farmer relevant, I'd be pleasantly surprised. Mostly surprised.

I see you didn't read 864.

Also, why didn't you hop on Elyse for going after ika with the same confidence?

I gave the reads RC asked for.

@tictac

Oh, I see, you were defending yourself, not scumreading farmer. I think.

What are you talking about here?

tl;dr this page

Now I'm tired again.

Yep. Because the most important thing to keep in mind when looking at another player's meta is the subforum the thread is in.

Would be valid defense if humans only stored mission critical info. That is not the case.
If you were digging for Ika games in Central Park like you described, you would remember. I asked you twice to be detailed and the only forum names you mentioned were ones that didn't have anything to do with the meta.
Inclusion of this game makes way more sense as a cut-paste error than as malaprotism.
Scum games were largely themed, while town games were not. That doesn't happen by accident. Nothing in your described process explains it.
Your meta-dive wasn't real. You are scum.

Here was my mindset when I read the thread that evening: people were saying that lurker-ika is consistently scum. I find the statement both credible (since he's a prolific player and I'd think others with more playing experience here would have easily been able to jump in and provide counterexamples were it false) and damning. However, if I was to express intent to hammer, I wanted to at least sample some of his games, since I would have been hesitant had I found a lurker-town game. So I find 15 games, and no lurker-town ikas, which makes the already plausible case moreso, and makes me more comfortable hammering.

Or

you (quite reasonably) thought an early hammer needed some padding so it wouldn't look quite so scummy.

I'm not dealing with this RC carpetbaggery

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

There's no way that will go anywhere today. It's too safe and entirely non-productive. You aren't even calling him scum.
You really don't want to be encouraging the idea of policy lynches because you'd be the first to go.

[tictac]

I was talking about 864. I really never bothered to verify the claims you and farmer were making off of ika's meta using other games, so I assumed you were just nitpicking farmer's case to fluff up the thread. Somehow in the moment I forgot that it was ika's ISO, and not yours.

Dunno how you could still be thinking my farmer thing is irrelevant in 866 then.
I was very clear I was scumreading him for it.
Also, I made no claims about the validity of the meta (that would have been non-constructive. Subjective 2 hand meta gives pretty random results)
My thing is that farmer isn't the person who wrote it, because his described process doesn't match the actual selection of games.

I was hesitant about a ckd lynch before, but RC's claim changes that. We have one confirmed scum between the two of them, so we can lynch one, and then the other tomorrow if need be. I feel that the same applies for Cakez and Elyse, but that route is slightly more fallible.

RC hasn't claimed a ckd target. He was even refusing to vote there before your post. Read the thread.
What are you basing the Cakez/Elyse TvS thing on?

(snip PR speculation)

(snip PR speculation)

(snip PR speculation)

Stop it.

[tictac]

I don't think it's Cakes/Farmer team.

- Nothing in this game is that easy.
- Both of them sheeped RC into my wagon (192,194), which scum tends to not do.

But that is really my scum group.
Cakez. Farmer. Tictac.

- kinda doubt this group is 2/3rds scum.

I need to read more before I vote.
I'd appreciate it if we could have something approaching an actual day today.

[tictac]

Phone.
@CKD your case is nk-analysis from acryon, who didn't even vote me + me having 2 scumreads yesterday. Really?
I'd prefer no hammer yet. I want to do proper associatives and won't have the time until the weekend.
I didn't sign up for a blitz game. If you guys hammer less thanhalfway to the day, thats on you.

[tictac]

I wouldn't be offended if tictac gave some half-assed associatives (or reads or whatever) prior to his proper ones this weekend, since he's at least going to have to prodge before then anyway.

Currently thinking Cakez is town based on him being one of few people camn actually pushed. (Cakez,Ika,CKD), but haven't gone over his own ISO yet.
Currently thinking UTL is scum, but might be because I started with the shortest ISO.
I'm making a huge thing and it will be misleading if I post it in parts.
Would appreciate it if I could do it before anything gets hammered. What is there to lose by waiting a bit?

[tictac]

Someone hammer already. This game is dead and needs a kick in the pants that my town flip should provide.

Sorry this is taking so long. I'm 4/7th of the way there.
Should be able to finish tomorrow, but also promised to babysit. Sunday at the latest.

[tictac]

It would take some stunning revelations for tictac's post to make me not want to go through with the SirCakez lynch.

@tictac
Since 1) you're unlikely to be the NK tonight and 2) the town seems set upon lynching SirCakez, you may want to consider keeping what you're writing in reserve for D4 if you feel it will help scum more than town on N3.

I'd be very surprised if my thing affected the NK with outed PRs about.
Might be value in keeping some reads in reserve, to make it harder to target mislynches thou.
Also,I still have you and CKD to do and my eyes are starting to go blind.
I'm posting the bits that I think are currently relevant.

Spoiler: Camn

19 awkward Rando vote.
129[/post] scumread Rando, vote me.
178 vote UTL for lurking
243 says UTL was just pressure, unreasoned vote on me. Gives reasons to vote Rando instead.
251 Scumreads Rando again, doesn't vote.
312 tictac associatives post. Rando&Cakes scumreads here are bus-like since it's all predicated on scum!tictac.
346 continues treating me as confscum, but votes Cakez. Cakez she actually pushes, but is also quick to change target when an opportunity presents itself(Ika & CKD).
490 vote Ika "post or perish"
548 vote Cakez (sheep Elyse)
727 vote CKD, push him

hard

, doesn't pay too much attention on being coherent.

258,718,820,985 "ITT Cowbells keeps repeating " camn might be scum", and all other players are forgotten."
Never votes RC.

So, clear buslike behaviour on Rando, me, UTL, Cakez, RC. That is way too much busses.

Spoiler: I think this is why

19 camn:"It probably was too soon to play with you guys."
145 camn:"tictac will be on you like white on rice if you nightkill me like you wanna."
577 camn:"Same townstrategy as always, RC....find the scumz...Lynch them if you can... But be sure to buddy one until he has bussed all his partners....then burn him down and ruin his plans."
803 RC:"I left Camn alive to see how she'd react to things but it clearly didn't work last game."
(Note camn describing RCs strategy before he did. Camn knew what he was doing.)

camn knew RC could read her, and that I would be less susceptible to her buddying from the start and would also likely recognize her scumgame.
Couldn't kill either of us because the other would be on her "like white on rice".
I think she expected getting lynched from her first post.

That explains the huge amount of bus-like behaviour from her. There's a decent chance she was trying to create false associatives.
The less bus-like pushes are slightly more likely to actually be busses, but could well be her actually wanting people lynched too.
I think camn generally pretty unlikely to bus.
Her associatives can still be read, but shouldn't be based solely on how

camn

acted.

Spoiler: Cakez

4: rvs RC
is silent during the 'lets QL camn' thing. Scared?
59 join me on Rando
79 answer zulf asking why.
112 push Rando vote
118 question zulf about camn vote (a scum would be less likely to do this since it's a no-weight RVS vote and would be reluctant to be seen as defending partner)
119 zulf:"why single me out?"
120 answer (thoughtsync here)
140 question RCs scumread on camn. "I don't see this at all". (It's a meta-read so he wouldn't)
164 "The no-avatar thing isn't my issue with SRMP." (This was unprompted and could be wanting to distance himself from camns avatar-push on Rando.)
"I have no idea what RC is doing."(Also an unprompted stance on RCs camn scumread)
166 acnowledge RCs mysteriousness
186 "Can someone explain the case on camn to me? I'm not seeing it."(me & Elyse did give reasons with the votes, so not seeing the point of this question)
188 emoticon in response to naked vote from Elyse.
194 sheep RC to me. (This is interesting, because RCs vote on me was no more reasoned than his vote on camn. Cakez did later say he had his own reasons, but still. Also 3rd on the wagon)
206 defend against CKD
218 defend against UTL
221 defend against UTL
222 UTL:"And your reason was sheeping because your other wagon was dead. Tell me, what are your thoughts on tictac?"
223 finally gives reason for being in my wagon. Feels pressured to do so. Not sure those reasons existed before this point.
243 camn joins him on me without givin reasons(Usually a point against him being her partner. Might not be if camn fakes standard associatives)
250 hard defend camn. defend his questions from Elyse. Questions for camns wagon become questions for RC.
258 defend against Rando. Give reason for getting off rando as "you are improving"
259 Rando points out different reason given earlier.
260 Says it's both (Not liking the shifting reasons here)
261 Elyse:"then why not ask RC specifically"
262 now it's an open question to camn wagon again.
295 question RC seeing him as a buddy with camn.
question Elyses vote on him
non-defend against me. (Scum would be more likely to regret not giving reasons with his vote)
(note that camn & cakes widely scumread at this point, but I'm not reading the panic here I'd expect to see if they were both scum)
314 defend against camn saying he would be likely tictac-partner.
319 answer CKD("it was an open question for the people wagoning camn but RC was leading the wagon."), scumread Ika.
326 answer acryon
328 defend Ika scumread
343 question farmer. possible attempt to direct attention to CKD (cakez+camn are 2/4 of farmers list there)
346 camn votes Cakez. Giver reasons when she didn't give any for the vote on me.
347 defend against camn
352 defend against camn
353 scumread Elyse for poor reasoning(despite not scumreading camn for hers)
354 question Elyse.
356 push me. Urge UTL and Ika to lurk less. scumread CKD.
359 push me
360 promise readslist
361 defend from farmer
362 question Rando
364 question Zulf, push me
365 reads. Camn as null.
367 non-defend from Elyse
369 Elyse vs Loki TvT. calling Loki logical may be buddying.
372 threaten RC with potential scumread
374 scumread RC
378 scumread Elyse
379 defend against RC
382 "I expect you to kill a tunnel on someone who's trying to defend himself" (He called it. Maybe that is why I'm not seeing nervousness)
384 question Elyse(theorize Elyse townread on me. More likely from scum since would know we are both town)
385 question Elyse
387 question Elyse
388 question/scumread Zulf(zulftown if Cakezscum?)
389 camn: puch Cakez
391 defend against camn
392 NULL
393 push/question camn
395 "confbiasing or scum" (softening a scumread)
397 camn could be confbiasing scum doesn't make sense. Smells like justifying a null-read on camn.
398 disengaging from camn
400 give reasoning to not talk to Loki
401 camn: pushes Cake
402 defend against camn
403 wikilink to confbias(may indicate genuinely thinking camn is tunneling?)
405 says he wants people to look at the wagon.
407 says camn isn't bussing
410 camn: push Cakez
411 accse camn of confbias
camn:pushpush
419 defend
422 cakez does an ISO on me to push me.
423 push me
425 ask for input
431 defend/scumread me
432 push me
433 push Ika
436 defend against me
438 push me
440 joke
441 question about Elyse-meta
467 Ika vote
473 defend/question against me
474 push CKD
477 push Ika
488 defend against Ika
496 defend against camn
499 scumread Rando
501 push Ika
503,504 camn:push Cakez
540 scumread farmer from the hammer

day2
541 question CKD
542 scumread Elyse
547 vote me
548 camn:vote Cake
549 null
551 NK analysis scumread RC
553 camn:push cake.
554 defend against camn
556 "There's no night results here Loki."(not scum with Loki?)
558 camn: tries to urge me to go after Cakez (I think this is strongish toint in favour of town!Cakez)
559 defend against camn
562 null
563 scumread Ika wagon
566 defend
567 defend
568 "where is Zulf"
578 scumread Elyse
579 defend
581 push Elyse
585 nullread RC
586 reads. camn as town, Elyse as scumlean. Interesting because playstyles are so similar.
588 question RC
590,592 question RC
597 question Rando about reads
601 frustration
602 null
603 scumread me, Rando townread UTL
607 "Elyse, SRMP, RC scumteam maybe. (Two conftown here. If Cakez is scum this is an indicator that Rando is his partner)
608 push Elyse
610 scumread Rando
612 push Rando(Pushing rando when things look like they are headed for a cakez-lynch makes it more likely to be a bus)
614 offers to claim without intent.
616 claims.(way too eager to claim if he's actually a VT, but CKD was likewise)
618 Rando: defends against Cakez, unvotes.
620 defend claim. question Elyse
621 scumread Elyse
622 Rando: wants to avoid an early hammer.
623 Votes Elyse
626 push Elyse
629 give reasons for townread on camn.
631 RC: question Cakez about changed read on camn
638 scumread Elyse
648 scumreading me less. Theorize RC,Rando,Elyse team
651 question Rando
652 defend against Rando
655 null
658 defend against RC
659 defend against Rando
661 question Rando
663 scumread Rando
665 null
666 camn:Ultimatum
667 question camn
669 camn:gives reasons (I think camn is actually feeling the need to explain herself here. Point against cakes being scum with camn)
672 scumread Elyse
678 defend against CKD
680 disengage from Rando
682 defend against Rando
687 defend against CKD
689 diasengage from Rando
693 disengage from Rando
695 defend against CKD
708 camn: pushes Cakes
723 question camn, RC
726 question Elyse

740 confusion, accuse camn of rolefish
745 question camn
748 confusion
751 question CKD
761 vote CKD
782 push CKD
788 confusion
793 scumread Elyse
794 question Elyse about Zulf. nullread zulf
809 joke
838 question camn
842 "So you're basically scumreading him for crumbing cop?"
844 promise reads
849 scumread CKD for anti-townness.
865 reads "Camn - My iffiest read. Had her as scum day one, then town earlier today and now she's slipping back to scum. Really don't like the stuff with looking for who might be a cop, for example 833 at the end. As others have said she's rushing the lynch through and hard tunneling in a bad way. But I do like her earlier scumhunting and content so she's null leaning scum for me right now." (Null-scum swingy read is pretty classic partner-read)
871 buys RCs cop-claim?
873 push farmer
883 defend RC scumread Zulf
892 "Yeah I'm townreading tictac now. His posts have vastly improved today and I really like 886.
I also like UTL's case for Camn scum, I was already iffy on her. But CKD is still scummier."
Townreads me for siding with CKD, but CKD is his top scum. Looks like reluctance to go for camn.
898 question Zulf
908 joke
911 joke
915 joke
917 joke
921 prefer CKD lynch to camn
926 question RC
930 question/defend from RC
932 gneral defend
934 promise camn ISO
939 defend
941 question cop!RC
943 null
944 promise camn ISO
951 promise reads. "game needs my flip to progress"
953 promise reads
955 null
957 joke
960 facepalm at RCs camn vote
963 "I can lynch camn".Not voting.
964 "If I did get "all over it" people would call me opportunistic scum" Worried about how people see him, but I can see whoa town in his position might be"
966 vote camn, still wants to lynch CKD
968 "not bussing"
970 explain smileys
972 defend smileys
974 question RC about Elyse
976 Point out Elyses behaviour matches RCs theories. (Trying to confirm masons? Not seeing the point otherwise.)
977 RC gives a cakes associative as an answer.
978 defend
980 joke
982 eager for own flip
997 "We are lynching inside {Camn, SirCakez, CKD}" (I get nothing from this)
1001 answer Bells question
1007 confusion.

Day1:
-defending camn, while null-reading her.
-Defending against camn. I don't think camn is likely to bus like that, but Cakez insistance of tunneling!camn rather than scum!camn does make it iffy.
-says he was scumreading camn on day 1, but I'm not really seeing it.

Day2:
-camn continues Cakez push
-Cakez townreads camn until CKD thing.
-CKD: initially takes no stance and questions camns push, but changes tune pretty quickly
-camn becomes null-scum. Cakes continues to push CKD, but does vote camn when it's him or her and RC prompts him.

There's a mild/decent associtiative here, I think.
This is why I'm still hesitant: 558 is camn urging me to go after Cakez. Compare with 792. It's a thing she does as scum, and a strong point in favour of town!Cakez and a mild point against farmer(who I was then going after)

Spoiler: Zulf

17 RVS camn "for the quicklynch"
23 question Rando for lack of avatar.
31 joke about quicklynch
34 push quicklynch
78 question farmer,cakez
80 +1 me
86 joke
87 joke(apparently)
113 explain plusses.
114 defend
116 +1 me
117 +1 Rando
119 defend against/question Cakez
125 defend against Cakez
138 question camn("what's the right thing" It was really obvious from context, so might be asking just to be seen interacting)
183 "?"(no idea what this is referring to and nobody answered. Zulf didn't seem to mind)
203 "It also does but shes gonna wait. Can't imagine why."(ref Elyses naked vote on Cakez)
338 prodge

Day2:
628 defend lokiben+fluff
632 questions for farmer
633 correct his quoting (questions were never answered, and Zulf never addressed farmed before scumreading him in 1015)
634 "what's going on?"
636 "what is the point" on argument between me and UTL
637 @Cakes who was backtracking?(Elyse)
640 @me Is Elyses destructive confidence alignment indicative?
641 vote Elyse(sheep Cakez)
642 offer to answer questions
774 defend
780 CKD wagon 'shit', slight push for Elyse.
781 push Elyse
878 vote RC (chainsaw?)
880 meme
882 defend vote
897 question Cakes ("how")
898 Cakez:"How what?"(10 minutes later. This question never answered by Zulf. Doesn't look like he cared much about getting his question answered)
919 push RC
1000 push RC
1003 push RC
1008 hammer camn
1015 defend hammer, scumread farmer,RC,cakez
1032 'See?' (might refer to RCs 'copclaim'?)

Zulf pushes for RVS quicklynch on camn and later hammers her.
Other than that the only mention of her he makes is 138 "What is the right thing?". The answer to that question was really obvious from context, so doesn't really make sense for him to ask her that.
Day 2 RC push could be chainsawing for camn.

I'm thinking quicklynching/lolhammering your buddy would be a good way to get towncred if one is a really low effort player who would otherwise be prone to getting policy-lynched. I think it's suspicious that he tried both of those on camn.(as previously detailed, I think camn expected death anyway so would be cheaper than usual for scum)
Also somewhat noteworthy is that zulf

didn't

lolhammer Ika, but plausible that it's because he was absent.

Spoiler: Since camn references were so sparse I looked at camns zulf refs

126 camn agrees with zulfs ping
312 camn lists zulf as "propably not my partner" (listing all the players in this and 346)
389 very slight defend.
777 camn lists all players. zulfy weirdly as top town.

That is

everything

.
Having as little to do with her partners as possible jives way more with how I'd expect camn to behave, than pushing Cakez

tl;dr: I wanna lynch Zulfy instead.
VOTE: Zulf

[tictac]

Ok, then. I think that's the hammer.
@Cakez What's the flip?

[tictac]

hmmmm....if i was a betting man, I would put money on tictac showing up and voting Zulfy too.

You'd win that bet.
VOTE: Zulfy

[tictac]

so why the fuck was I blocked last night but not the night before?

Seeing a few possibilities here.
1. Didn't actually happen and you are making it up to have fewer verifiable datapoints.
2. lurkerscum wasn't present during the night to submit the action.(rare, but it does happen)
3. Scum bought RCs "copclaim" and wasted a block on him just in case he was doc-saved. (would prob mean both remaining scum are newbs)
4. odd-night blocker. (unlikely since this is supposed to be a simple setup. @Zulf where did Performer say that?)

As for your theory:
-Why would I fail to block you night 2?
- Using tracking on your scumreads doesn't make sense. I told you so and explained why. Why would I think you were more likely to track me because you were scumreading me after that?

[tictac]

egad

Why is it surprising to you? I was pretty explicit about scumreading you yesterday.

[tictac]

@farmer I'm thinking Rando is town.
-155 mistakes camn with another player. I don't think this can happen if he is scum with her. I think it's a real mistake because it's consistent with his play otherwise. (@Rando Who were you thinking of there?)
- I don't think the avatar-thing would have been so big a deal if they were both scum. camn would have waited for the night and then asked him to get one. As it was she was unnecessarily drawing heat from it.

[tictac]

forgot to link
155

[tictac]

@CKD
addressing the case (again)
acryon: Didn't even vote for me. Most extreme stance he made about me was 'scummier than cakez'. Would make no sense for scum!me to kill him for that.
Ika vote: Lots of people voted for same exact reasoning I did. You are just scumreading disagreement there.
786 and850: I was more interested in farmer at the time. I was scumreading camn

as well

, but there was pressure on camn from others and none on farmer. My vote was thus more constructive on farmer. The day wasn't ending and I have no interest in quicklynches so saw no need to consolidate. Also, why are you scumreading me for speaking out against your lynch?

Now, go do something productive instead.

[tictac]

CKD brings up a good point regarding his results, and if he's going to claim his Night 2 results today regardless, then he should probably just go ahead and reveal them.

Agreed.

also:
@CKD: What is your theory on why scum seems to be prioritizing killing conftown over an investigative kill?

[tictac]

confirm vote tictac.

I show you the holes in your case and your response is to scumread me harder?

You are reaching hard here.
"Why would I fail to block you night 2?" == "If I was scum I could have suggested blocking you in scum-thread or blocked you myself if I was a roleblocker. Either way I would have had the power to cause you to be blocked. Why would I have not done that?"
I was being concise.

I've been thinking you are town from how hard camn pushed ya, but maybe I was wrong there.

It doesn't seem to be bothering you at all that your view of events is logically inconsistent.

VOTE: CKD
I asked you questions.
Answer them.

@CKD: What is your theory on why scum seems to be prioritizing killing conftown over an investigative kill?

you tell me.

So the answer doesn't interest you enough to have formed theories?

In your history of playing this game. As scum, have you ever defended town just to get town cred. When did you actually "defend" me? How many votes did I have?

Never played as actual scum. Had a pseudo-SK once, but pretty much played it as town since I still wanted mafia dead.
Defended ya on 786. Ya linked it, so I don't see how you could have failed to read it.

[tictac]

LOL that is what I thought. I call you out on

your scum slip

and you immediately vote me without even acknowledging them.

-Why would I fail to block you night 2?

scum slip.

If by "scumslip" you mean something other than what you quoted, do quote the correct thing(s?) now.
Otherwise I'm gonna assume you are just speaking words without even attempting to base anything to reality.

yeah I got theories, but I am not going to tell you how to play the game. One theory is obvious though (and I have said as much). I wasnt a threat to you that night and by defending me, you thought I wouldnt track you.

Again you fail to answer: Why would you not be blocked on night 2?

THE DAY I START TO PUSH A CASE YOU BLOCK ME.

now you are OMGUS voting me

No. I voted you for because you ignored a valid defense, and refused to defend your position by answering my questions. Tells me that you aren't interested in if your push is valid. You just want to push me.

When did you actually "defend" me?

786. Ya linked it, so I don't see how you could have failed to read it.

also you completely ignore the point. I DONT CARE that you defended me.

I ignored a point you never made.
Why did you ask the question if you don't care about the answer?

The only reason you defended me is because you wanted to look town when I flipped town.

Ya said I defended you so you wouldn't track me. Make up your mind.

I guess you think as scum, I would just attack the only person that defended me? HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE?

people who defended ya: zulf, me, farmer, Rando.
I changed my stance on ya in 811, until I did the associative reading yesterday.
I don't believe you are this bad at reading. You are deliberately distorting the facts.

my god your squirming is horrible and you are grasping at straws.

I saw someone else do this in this game...it was camn.

One of us sure is sounding a lot like camn, and it ain't me.

Look up what it means. He is only voting me because I am voting him. If I had removed my vote you think he would still be voting me?

No I wouldn't, because it would mean you are reacting to new evidence. Something you are currently very obviously

not doing

.
Townies care about voting correctly, so when someone gives a valid defense, they change their mind.

Coming into today he said " he thought I was town" but once I again attacked him I am now scum.

A lie. I said that in the same post I vote for ya. My 8th post of the day.

Ask yourself this.

Why as scum would I attack the only person who defended me day 2

This point entirely based on fiction.

Why as scum (with a tracker claim) would I not come in today and fake claim that I got a guilty on someone...anyone? To kill one more person before I get lynched.

That is actually a valid point. It wouldn't be

impossible

for you to squirm out of getting lynched tomorrow, but it would be pretty hard.

There was a clear wagon on Zulf. I could jumped on it (as scum) and no one would have said anything. If he flipped town or scum no one would have looked at me. Instead? I am looking for scum.

Another valid point. Why didn't you start with these?

Look what he has done in this game. Look at what he is doing today?

This guy is a scum bag.

Specifics please. If you don't make actual charges I can't defend. If you care about lynching correctly you want me to defend.

TL;DR: He does have a few valid points, even if he is largely incoherent and doesn't seem to care about facts very much. It's possible this is his playstyle, but I was under the impression that he was supposed to not be horrible at this game. Does anybody still living have experience with him? Is it possible he acts this way as town?
Still scummier than Zulf, but not by a huge margin.

[tictac]

Dont remember defending him, unless you mean im defending him with my vote on you. If so thats wrong jsyk

835
Ya called bs on (part of) camns attack on CKD and then voted for her. I'd call that defending.

[tictac]

if logic is flawed, logic is flawed and im gonna call it out.

Ya. Pointing out flawed logic in a push is a form of defense.
There's nothing wrong with defending someone, so why are you sounding defensive all of a sudden?

[tictac]

Ya, notice how I'm not voting for him.
He was acting a bit weird so I pointed it out. That's enough for you to vote for me here?

[tictac]

heh.
And what actions are those?

[tictac]

?

[tictac]

UNVOTE:
I think he's genuinely pissed :/

VOTE: UTL If ckd is town this is scum.
Extreme lurking explains the lack of block night 2.

Also: @ckd chill.

[tictac]

Heyah pisskop.

Spoiler: Updated UTL ISO

11 rvs farmer
29 join camn Rando has no avatar thing.
33 "Would page 2 quicklynch be a record?"
51 guess at movie.
189 defend against camns lurker pressure
217 like tictac over RC. False dichtomy. There was never RC vs tictac. RC was after me while I never seriously attacked RC. Push Cakez for wagoning. Push Rando for avatar+ blah content.
220 continue cakez push (wagon hopping)
222 ask Cakes about me. (justified)
297 "Why is camn scummier than tictac"
300 defend against lokiben (questions)
325 vote RC for changing his vote from me to camn. (chainsaw?)
363 defend against Cakez accusation(non productive RC vote) //Where did Cakez wagonhop idea originate?
accuse Cakes of waginhopping, ill defined reasons to scumread me.
scumread Elyse (sheep lokis reasoning), townread loki push him towards Cakez.
scumread Zulfy for prod dodging.
Ika not interested in doing anything.
Agree with Farmers POW on Elyse/loki (in conflict with agreeing with loki on his Elyse read). Sheep me on town!farmer.
369 clarify question.(was intended for loki)
371 null
409 null
413 Cakez: camn scumreading tictac but pushing cakez.
420 defend camn from cakez. Push Cakez(defensive,not pressuring reads).
462 Ika vote. (same reasoning as mine)
527 null (post-mortem push on Ika)

Day 2:
570 defend against cakez(Ika wagon too fast). sheep camn on cakez being scummy for thinking fastwagons probably have scum in them. "look at farmer now" (justified prob prompted by 550)
594 "Other than farmer's potential scumslip and the iffy hammer, I'm not seeing too much that's sticking out atm"
points to acryons Elyse thing, scumreads Elyse.
598 tictac: Don't misrep acryon.
604 defend against me.
acryon thing becomes tictac-Elyse pre-flip associative. Misrep of acryons Elyse-read becomes explicit.
620 tictac: Ye'r still misrepping.
630 Defend against me.
636 Zulfy: What's the point of this?
639 accuse me of misrepping him, saying he wasn't misrepping acryon.(totally was. See 644)
643 "speed of cakez wagon is disturbing."
720 null (express confusion about CKD thing)
776 vote CKD for outing masons (L-1 for anti-town behaviour)
861 unvote (until has a chance to read)(response to CKD pointing out the lack of scum motivation in what he did?)
889 rehash of the CKD thing.
I don't like how UTL seems to be taking everybody at their word, especially about camn saying CKD softed investigative. (Those posts did

not

look like investigative softs. It's possible UTL is sheeping me here.)
891 camn not lying, tunneling, but pushing too fast and giving bad vibes. votes camn. (I feel like this scumread is really weak, but might be playstyle?)
894 @camn "why didn't you lay it all out at the very beginning?"

Day 3:
1098 NULL. (confusion about Elyse wagon)
1187 "from what I've skimmed, and the first 2 Days, pretty sure I'll be going with cakez."(sheep general town opinion)
1194 like tictac case. Interesting that didn't comment on one of the points being Ika vote(UTL was on that wagon for the same exact reasons I was)
Cakez flailing and grasping at straws. Intent to hammer.
Lokis voting throwing her off.
1223 waiting for me. Question about Elyse(non-scumhunt since Elyse conftown)
1240 hammer cakez quoting Elyse.(Shift responsibility, not interested in reactions to my post apparently)

Day 4:
1289 NULL
1336 re-appers when under pressure, evidence that was in fact following the thread while not posting.
1338,1340 defense, push me.

day1: Some defense of camn. camns vote on UTL pure lurker-pressure+ unmotivated shift back to me.
day2: put CKD at L-1 for anti-town behaviour. Uncharasteristic because otherwise thoughtful. Did vote camn, but repped her more as tunneling than as scum.
day3: sheeped town on Cakez, but so did many people. Agreed with CKDs tictac case despite being on Ika for the same reasons I did. No scumhunting and an early hammer while shifting responsibility.


On CKD:
Cheked some of his earlier tracker games(President maker & Mini 589). It's really old meta, but he does in fact use tracking on his scumreads.(@CKD you should re-consider that. Makes no sense. Specially when you are out as a tracker.)

His 'tictac blocked me cause I pushed him' thing makes no sense, but people are agreeing with it. I think it's a brain-fart from town that is supported by scum. I buy Loki buying in cause he's new. Kinda buy it from Zulf cause he doesn't seem to be thinking much, just pattern-matching standard scum.tells. I don't buy it from UTL.

Reason I thought CKDs outburst was towny: He threw a hissy-fit cause he was getting resistance to getting to lynch the person he wanted to lynch. Scum!CKD would have been more likely to be happy to fail to lynch me, cause he could just NK me instead and not get heat from pushing a town-lynch tomorrow.

[tictac]

it seemed (to me, at least) that her wagon would soon disband in favor of SirCakez.

Why do ya think that?

[tictac]

VOTE: Camn

bussing.

I appreciate it, and thinks for keeping it light hearted.

I buy it.

3rd letter of 'thinks' is mis-spelled. Looks like it really wasn't a spellcheck error.
No wonder RC was pissed that I kept drawing attention to it

First game modded by Performer, so he may well be throwing an oddball at us.

[tictac]

He dipped into Rando, then re-voted you.
The re-vote needs reasons thou, since the previous vote was lurker.pressure and you don't lurk.

[tictac]

I was thinking about it (I probably shouldent have been) but the chances of 3 masons and a tracker with no scum power roles is basically

We don't really know scum has no power-roles.
The combination does feel..off thou.
Need to re-eval when I'm less tired.

[tictac]

@zulf Where did Performer say this game was simple?

[tictac]

Can you show me where *I* defended him?

Sure.

Looks like another shit wagon to me.

[tictac]

tictac hasn't claimed anything, correct?

Correct.

[tictac]

pisskop:
scummy slot as detailed in 1349
I'm less confident about the "explains the blocking" point.
(less confident about the existence of a blocker. We only have CKDs word on that. I'd expect an extra large masonry to be countered by a rolecop on the scum-side. Supposed to be a simple setup, so doubt they have both. I don't think it's a JOAT, it's a complex role.)
However his actions have been scummy since the replace. Hard buddying Zulf, disgredit apfs play focuses on 'bad' rather than 'scummy'. More 'lessen this persons ability to influence the game', less 'let's get this guy lynched'
Response to Rando wasn't scummy thou. Rando really was pushing nonsense.
Over-all feeling good about the vote.

I don't see the 'farmer excessively sheeping' thing.

Spoiler: compare sheeps

voter(vote) ------ (people already on the wagon)

Pisskop(11)(farmer) ------ ()
Pisskop(29)(Rando) ------ (

camn

)
Pisskop(325)(

RC

) ------ (

acryon

,

Ika

)
Pisskop(462)(

Ika

) ------ (

Elyse

,

tictac

)
Pisskop(776)(CKD) ------ (

Elyse

,

Cakez

,

camn

,

RC

)
Pisskop(891)(

camn

) ------ (CKD,Rando,

RC

)
Pisskop(1240)(

Cakez

) ------ (Rando,

Elyse

,Zulfy,farmer)
Pisskop(1365)(farmer) ------ ()

farmer(7)(

camn

) ------ ()
farmer(36)(Zulfy) ------ ()
farmer(192)(

tictac

) ------ (

RC

)
farmer(358)(

Cakez

) ------ (CKD,

Elyse

)
farmer(565)(

Cakez

) ------ (

Elyse

,

camn

)
farmer(818)(Pisskop) ------ ()
farmer(1050)(Rando) ------ ()
farmer(1189)(

Cakez

) ------ (Rando,

Elyse

)
farmer(1245)(Rando) ------ ()
farmer(1327)(Pisskop) ------ (

tictac

)
farmer(1405)(Rando) ------ ()
farmer(1418)(Pisskop) ------ (

tictac

)

I'm seeing more sheep from pisskop-slot.

btw. Leader in original direction is Loki, who has never agreed with anyone ever, save once with me on zulf.
The position of leader in sheeping is tied with Rando @ Zulf with 2 original votes each.(pisskop not counted here since he has less overall votes)

(disclaimer: vote counter in beta. Weird formatting may screw with results.)

[tictac]

Hard buddying Zulf

wat?

Putting him on top of your 'tiers' list, 'King of one-liners'.

[tictac]

Tctac should quantify what is otherwise nonesense in a spoiler.

Quantify how? It's all votes from both slots.(UTL never voted for anything that hadn't already been voted on outside RVS. That objective enough for ya?)
Maybe demonstrate quatification with your votecounts-post? I'm open to being persuaded, if you can be more clear.

[tictac]

no fucking way you can be that socially deprived as to not recognize sarcasm and snark.

k. Not impossible that some flavours of sarcasm escape me. At least zulf seems to think so.

pedit: Well ya don't need to, but it would help ya win.
pe2: condescending?

[tictac]

What part of what I have said is confusing and needing of explaination?

Well 1366 would be ay easier to read if you put in post numbers.
I recognize the Ika-hammer, and I'm not a huge fan of it myself.

And yes, if youre going to try to put it on me to convince you, and apply pressure form a superior ground, it is condescending.

That is not the intention. I'm scumreading ya so I vote ya. Doesn't mean I'm not giving what you say consideration.

[tictac]

So in 13xx youve laid out an iso of utl, but I failed to see any vlaue judgements from you that werent implicit.

What is your case on this slot?

1349 was intended as an analysis of the slot. Not everything is scummy, but I do believe I made the camn associative explicit.
Putting someone on L-1 for anti-town behaviour is very scummy, since it's going for a lynch for something that isn't alignment indicative. UTL is experienced enough to know it wasn't a good reason for a lynch.
As was encouraging CKDs push on me when he

had

to have been in disagreement with at least a part of it. He couldn't have thought the point about my reasons to be on Ika lych was a good one since he had the same reasons.
Really didn't like how his analysis of CKD debacle took everyone at their word. Doesn't look like town mentality to me. Looks like someone who wants to be liked above all else.

[tictac]

Prodge.
Should have time for this tomorrow.

[tictac]

Right then.I'm up to speed again.
Kinda like kops recent interaction with farmer.
Zulf is back as the scummiest.

Still thinking CKD is town. He's blatantly playing against wincon(whatever his wincon is) I think town-him would be more likely to do so, having more reason to be frustrated with the general incompetence of town in this game.

If I was scum, I would keep me alive just so people will hang me the following day.

This is true thou. Been avoiding mentioning it cause CKD-kill would have been a positive proof of a full-newb team. It's worthless now that it's been said out loud.
If he wants to pull a Cakez,I'm not inclined to fight him. It's bad for town, but I'm finding it difficult to care at this point.

Don't expect me to help thou.
VOTE: Zulf

[tictac]

it seemed (to me, at least) that her wagon would soon disband in favor of SirCakez.

Why do ya think that?

Did you answer this?

[tictac]

Opposite of sheeping

then why did you join it?

nvm, I know why.

I don't.
@Zulf: Care to explain?

[tictac]

I thought RC was gonna try and wiggle his way out of a camn lynch and hammered before he could get away with it

Doesn't make sense. That hammer would have done nothing to help ya get RC lynched, had camn flipped town. Don't see how you would have thought it would help more than harm.
A scum-you hammering camn for towncred, now that I can see.

[tictac]

Prior to Zulfy's hammer, SRMP had just abandoned ship and RC was waffling. Elyse hadn't expressed suspicion of camn and only said when voting her that it was because the claim was bad (and she had also recently something to the effect of not wanting to lynch camn). Of those remaining who weren't already on camn's wagon, only tictac had scumread camn, but he hadn't seemed interested in joining the camn wagon up to that point. Cakez's move to the camn wagon was sketchy and I expected heat to be brought on him for it.

Thanks.
I can see how you might think that, but I disagree.
RC didn't look very waffly in 1006. Mafia would know I'm town and would expect me to vote a scumread. I don't think that wagon looked wobbly to scum.

I havent read the rest of camn, but camn seems the type to hardbus and directly interact with a buddy.

That wasn't the case in our previous game. She did bus a bit, but was pretty soft about it, and only did it if there was a reason.

This was her attitude:
Subject: Newbie 1671 Mafia Topic

First things first- during the game, never defend me. I'm going to do some aggressive stuff that will catch me some heat...DINT DEFEND ME.
Try and ignore me if you can... But if you are pressed, just go with the prevailing opinion.

I wont go after you if I can help it. I will try and push this Sarg/You thing.... but if we flip him first, you come out looking like a rose.

[tictac]

That wasn't the case in our previous game. She did bus a bit, but was pretty soft about it, and only did it if there was a reason.

So . . .

Ya. Looks like she changed her MO.

I'm tempted to hammer CKD.
Not going to.
Will really take a deep deep look at all this

Wasnt l-1 when you posted this.

You didnt think about anything.

Ya he was. He did make a similar mistake in 1335, but not here.
Also didn't see evidence of thinking.

Farmers sure as hell not scum,

Agreed

I hammered two scum,

Ya. Your accuracy is downright eerie. You passed the chance to hammer pisskop, so you aren't just hammering anything that gets to L-1.
Ya pushed Elyse when she was conftown, ya said you were putting me at L-1 when yours was the only vote on me.
You are simultaneously unaware of things in the thread and 100% accurate with your hammers. It doesn't make sense at all.
Smells like informed perspective to me.

its either you or Loki. Probs Loki.

Why Loki? Why not me?

I'm thinking pisskop or Zulf. Probably Zulf.

VOTE: Zulf
L-1

[tictac]

VOTE: No Lynch

[tictac]

OK, so what's the plan?

Also blatantly obvious.
We NL for the chance that scum hits a VT, cause 2 conftown at 3p LYLO is an instant win.
Get on board.

[tictac]

Can we not go into any weird discussion today?

Seconded.

Everybody, vote for No Lynch.

[tictac]

Well, yesterday I was sure pisskop had to be a doc(I'm a VT, both of ya said you didn't cause the no-kill and a BP would have claimed)
I figure pisskop thought the same about me, and that is why he didn't want to discuss things too much.
(from my perspective Loki looked like a conf-scum, and I couldn't speak about it. I wouldn't have that info if I was a doc who protected farmer, so it would have VT-outed me)

Looks like it has to be a no-kill by scum.
Loki was scumreading me hard at the end of day 5. All scum!farmer had to do was kill pisskop, and he would have very likely won.
By same token scum!loki could have killed farmer and either me or pisskop would have very likely voted for the other.

So, no it doesn't make sense at all.
That said out of you two farmer is the one I'd more expect sensible play from, so I currently think it implicates Loki.

[tictac]

I'm not sure why you think it qualifies as insensible if here we are, objectively just as we would be if there had been a kill that night. I think pisskop was right when he said there was WIFOM to it, so I think that means it shouldn't be analyzed.

What kind of WIFOM do you see in it?

And why would pisskop have voted you, tictac? I would have been his pick, he said.

Huh. I think ye'r right. He said you were his backup choice and spoke of binary choice between us. I read that as him scumreading me more, but I think his primary was farmer in 1667.
Why are you arguing in favour of scum!Loki thou?

P-edit: If the mafia have an odd-night goon or something, does that qualify as simple?

No. I don't think that would qualify as normal even.

tictac, if you could put the kill out of mind, who would be your top scumread? I find it oddly convenient (or decidedly inconvenient, really) that your entire analysis is based upon the kill.

Farmer asked about the no-kill, and those were my thoughts. It's not intended to be a complete analysis.
If I exclude that I would still be scumreading you.from 1630. (Getting on board CKD only when it was clear he was going to get lynched, and preparing to lynch me in the same post. It sounds like you were trying to do damage-control.I think a townie would have been more focused on the matter at hand.)
Also,yer voting history:

Spoiler: votes

(10)(

Cakez

)(

Lokiben

)
(56)(

CKD

)(

Lokiben

)
(124)(---)(Lokiben)
(298)(

Elyse

)(

Lokiben

)
DAY END:1
DAY END:2
(1065)(

Elyse

)(

Lokiben

)
(1087)(---)(Lokiben)
(1099)(

Zulfy

)(

Lokiben

)
(1199)(---)(Lokiben)
DAY END:3
(1247)(

Zulfy

)(

Lokiben

)
(1630)(

CKD

)(farmer,

Rando

,

Lokiben

)
DAY END:4
(1643)(

Zulfy

)(

Lokiben

)
DAY END:5

The CKD vote was the first time ya voted with anyone at all, which tells me that yer motivation for that was different. I still need to doublecheck that, cause I remember getting a different result before(you agreeing with me on zulf)

That said, I haven't decided on a vote yet. I wanna do wagon analysis and take a closer look at farmers CKD push, it's gonna take a while.

[tictac]

no hammer.

[tictac]

I'll get to it. I still have a lot of reading to do and it's 1 am.

[tictac]

Will say that going for Loki was

really

towny of you. Would have been really, really easy for ya to lynch me if ya were scum.
Still, due diligence compels.

[tictac]

Oh, could ya make a case on Loki, please?

@Loki: could ya make a case on farmer?

[tictac]

@Loki
No reaction to recent events?

[tictac]

@Loki
If I was scum I would have won already.
How are you still thinking it's a possibility?

[tictac]

Spoiler: votes+comments

(4)(

RC

)(

Cakez

)
(5)(

RC

)(

Cakez

,

acryon

)
(6)(

tictac

)(

RC

)
(7)(

camn

)(

farmer

)
(8)(

camn

)(farmer,

RC

)
(9)(

camn

)(farmer,

RC

,

tictac

)
(10)(

Cakez

)(

Lokiben

)
(11)(farmer)(

Pisskop

)
(12)(

camn

)(farmer,

RC

,

tictac

,

Rando

)
(14)(farmer)(

Pisskop

,

Rando

)
(15)(

tictac

)(

CKD

)
(17)(

camn

)(farmer,

RC

,

tictac

,

Zulfy

)
(19)(

Rando

)(

camn

)
(28)(

RC

)(

Cakez

,

acryon

,

Rando

)
(29)(

Rando

)(

camn

,

Pisskop

)
(36)(

Zulfy

)(

farmer

)
(39)(Lokiben)(

Elyse

)
(46)(

Zulfy

)(farmer,

Elyse

)
(48)(

RC

)(

Cakez

,

acryon

,

Rando

,

Ika

)
(52)(

Elyse

)(

Rando

)
(56)(

CKD

)(

Lokiben

)
(58)(

Rando

)(

camn

,

Pisskop

,

tictac

)
(59)(

Rando

)(

camn

,

Pisskop

,

tictac

,

Cakez

)
(62)(

tictac

)(

CKD

,

RC

)
(76)(---)(

Rando

)
(90)(Lokiben)(

Elyse

)
(102)(

Zulfy

)(farmer,

tictac

)
(103)(

tictac

)(

CKD

,

RC

)
(106)(

Zulfy

)(farmer,

tictac

,

Rando

)
(119)(---)(

Zulfy

)
(123)(

Pisskop

)(

CKD

)
(124)(---)(Lokiben)
(126)(

tictac

)(

RC

,

camn

)
(147)(

camn

)(

RC

)
(152)(

camn

)(

RC

,

Elyse

)
(169)(

camn

)(

RC

,

Elyse

,

tictac

)
(178)(

Pisskop

)(

CKD

,

camn

)
Camn & CKD voting together is unusual. Driving a counterwagon to camns? Possibly something they talked about beforehand? Reaction to Cakez saying he likes to analyze wagons?
Camn wasn't very pushy about it thou
(179)(---)(

CKD

)
And CKD unvotes immediately. Evidence against this being a strategy they set up beforehand.
(187)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

)
(190)(

tictac

)(

RC

)
(192)(

tictac

)(

RC

,

farmer

)
(194)(

tictac

)(

RC

,farmer,

Cakez

)
(195)(

Rando

)(

Pisskop

,

acryon

)
(209)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

CKD

)
(224)(

RC

)(

Ika

,

acryon

)
(230)(---)(

Ika

)
(243)(

tictac

)(

RC

,farmer,

Cakez

,

camn

)
camn voted with CKD multiple times, so not counting her voting on top of farmer here as a townpoint.
(263)(

RC

)(

acryon

,

Ika

)
(271)(---)(

Rando

)
(284)(

camn

)(

tictac

,

RC

)
(298)(

Elyse

)(

Lokiben

)
(325)(

RC

)(

acryon

,

Ika

,

Pisskop

)
(329)(

Pisskop

)(

Elyse

)
(346)(

Cakez

)(

CKD

,

camn

)
(350)(

Cakez

)(

CKD

,

camn

,

Elyse

)
(358)(

Cakez

)(

CKD

,

camn

,

Elyse

,

farmer

)
I'll be very surprised if this wagon is 3/4th scum. Evidence of town!farmer.
(373)(

Cakez

)(

CKD

,

camn

,

Elyse

,farmer,

RC

)
(450)(

Ika

)(

Elyse

)
(453)(

Ika

)(

Elyse

,

tictac

)
(462)(

Ika

)(

Elyse

,

tictac

,

Pisskop

)
(464)(

Ika

)(

Elyse

,

tictac

,

Pisskop

,

Rando

)
(467)(

Ika

)(

Elyse

,

tictac

,

Pisskop

,

Rando

,

Cakez

)
(490)(

Ika

)(

Elyse

,

tictac

,

Pisskop

,

Rando

,

Cakez

,

camn

)
(522)(

Ika

)(

Elyse

,

tictac

,

Pisskop

,

Rando

,

Cakez

,

camn

,

farmer

)
This looks bad on farmer. Ika was a quick town-wagon, that stalled for 13 posts, before camn voted. Rando said he was just pressuring, and would have unvoted if he had the time to return to the thread. It's possible scum decided to drive it home. On the other hand I would think that scum!farmer would be more hurried about it.

DAY END:1
(546)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

)
(547)(

tictac

)(

Cakez

)
(548)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

camn

)
(550)(farmer)(

tictac

)
(565)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

camn

,

farmer

)
Camn and farmer together in a wagon again. Farmer did scumread Cakez on day 1, so it's not unnatural. Townpoint.
(584)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

camn

,farmer,

RC

)
(600)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

camn

,farmer,

RC

,

Rando

)
(618)(---)(

Rando

)
(623)(

Elyse

)(

Cakez

)
(641)(

Elyse

)(

Cakez

,

Zulfy

)
(719)(

CKD

)(

RC

)
(725)(

CKD

)(

RC

,

Elyse

)
(727)(

CKD

)(

RC

,

Elyse

,

camn

)
(730)(

Cakez

)(farmer,

Elyse

)
(744)(

CKD

)(

RC

,

camn

,

Elyse

)
(761)(

CKD

)(

RC

,

camn

,

Elyse

,

Cakez

)
(771)(---)(farmer)
Farmer expresses desire to lynch CKD, but only unvotes Cakez instead. Why?
(776)(

CKD

)(

RC

,

camn

,

Elyse

,

Cakez

,

Pisskop

)
(796)(

camn

)(

CKD

)
(802)(

camn

)(

CKD

,

RC

)
(818)(

Pisskop

)(

farmer

)
Farmer votes pisskop instead of taking a side in camn vs CKD. Did not go back to Cakez.(viewed that as a dead wagon? Seeking for something valid to push that isn't CKD or camn?)
(836)(

camn

)(

CKD

,

RC

,

Rando

)
(861)(---)(

Pisskop

)
(878)(

RC

)(

Zulfy

)
(891)(

camn

)(

CKD

,

RC

,

Rando

,

Pisskop

)
(922)(

Cakez

)(

RC

)
(949)(

Cakez

)(

RC

,

Elyse

)
(950)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

RC

)
(958)(

camn

)(

CKD

,

Rando

,

Pisskop

,

RC

)
(966)(

camn

)(

CKD

,

Rando

,

Pisskop

,

RC

,

Cakez

)
(997)(---)(

Rando

)
(1004)(

camn

)(

CKD

,

Pisskop

,

RC

,

Cakez

,

Elyse

)
(1008)(

camn

)(

CKD

,

Pisskop

,

RC

,

Cakez

,

Elyse

,

Zulfy

)
No votes at all from Loki during day 2, when camn-CKD crossbus was going on is scummy. Things were not going well for scum, so they would be more nervous.

DAY END:2
(1037)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

)
(1039)(farmer)(

Cakez

)
(1050)(

Rando

)(

farmer

)
(1055)(farmer)(

Cakez

,

Elyse

)
(1065)(

Elyse

)(

Lokiben

)
(1067)(

Elyse

)(Lokiben,

Zulfy

)
Loki doesn't know Elyse is conftown. CKD says this proves Loki & zulf town. I agree that it looks pre-arranged, but maybe CKD thought it would be caught anyways and wanted to WIFOM it.
(1078)(

tictac

)(

CKD

)
(1087)(---)(Lokiben)
(1088)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

)
(1093)(---)(

Zulfy

)
(1096)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

Rando

)
(1099)(

Zulfy

)(

Lokiben

)
Loki outs himself as not-mason. No desire to protect PRs, but might be newbness. Avoids Cakez wagon.
(1107)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

Rando

,

Zulfy

)
(1174)(---)(farmer)
(1182)(

tictac

)(

CKD

,

Zulfy

)
(1189)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

Rando

,

farmer

)
(1190)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

Rando

,farmer,

Zulfy

)
(1199)(---)(Lokiben)
(1238)(

Zulfy

)(

tictac

)
(1240)(

Cakez

)(

Elyse

,

Rando

,farmer,

Zulfy

,

Pisskop

)
If farmer is town Cakez was lynched entirely without scum help. That's actually plausible, in my opinion. Cakez was pretty widely and strongly scumread. I think scum would want to stay out of that wagon.

DAY END:3
(1245)(

Rando

)(

farmer

)
(1246)(

tictac

)(

CKD

)
(1247)(

Zulfy

)(

Lokiben

)
(1259)(

Zulfy

)(Lokiben,

tictac

)
(1271)(

CKD

)(

tictac

)
(1283)(

tictac

)(

CKD

,

Rando

)
(1296)(

tictac

)(

CKD

,

Rando

,

Zulfy

)
(1304)(---)(

Rando

) "Out of L-1"
(1320)(---)(

Zulfy

) Unvotes me cause CKD looks scummy.
(1325)(

CKD

)(

tictac

,

CKD

)First selfvote by CKD.
I don't think we would see this behaviour from CKD if he hadn't resigned himself to being lynched on day 4 or 5. (Increased likelihood of busses on day 4)
(1326)(

Pisskop

)(

tictac

)
(1327)(

Pisskop

)(

tictac

,

farmer

)
Farmer scumreads CKD for AtE, but lurker-pressure-votes UTL instead.
(1335)(

tictac

)(

Zulfy

)
(1353)(---)(

CKD

)
(1365)(farmer)(

Pisskop

)
(1405)(

Rando

)(

farmer

)
Farmer votes Rando, cause doesn't believe the mason-claim. Scum would know it to be true, so would be less likely to react like that.
(1418)(

Pisskop

)(

tictac

,

farmer

)
Farmer goes back to UTL.
(1420)(

CKD

)(

Rando

)
(1421)(---)(

Rando

)

1426

non-vote, but farmer gives reasoning for pisskop vote. refers to post 818

That read kinda disappeared for a good long while; farmer even spending time not voting despite allegedly having these reasons. Evidence for it does exist in 1064 thou.
(1497)(

Pisskop

)(

tictac

,farmer,

CKD

)
CKD was reluctant to vote with camn earlier, so him voting with farmer is a point for town!farmer.
(1553)(---)(farmer)
Farmer unvotes(prompted by zulf), but they did wagon for a good while, so point applies.
(1586)(

CKD

)(

farmer

)
Farmer votes CKD. Could be because pisskop said CKD looks a lot like a bus? Pisskop was scumreading farmer, would be good to direct attention to partner who was already damaged goods.
(1590)(---)(

CKD

)
CKD defends against farmer, unvotes pisskop.
(1593)(farmer)(

Pisskop

,

CKD

)
CKD votes farmer.
(1594)(---)(

CKD

)
(1597)(

CKD

)(farmer,

Rando

)
(1605)(

CKD

)(farmer,

Rando

,

CKD

)
Second self-vote by CKD. Not very interested in pushing farmer, may indicate that it's not a bus? Maybe doesn't want to repeat what he did with camn, since pisskop read it as bussing?
(1608)(

Zulfy

)(Lokiben,

tictac

)
(1626)(farmer)(

Pisskop

,

CKD

)
(1630)(

CKD

)(farmer,

Rando

,

Lokiben

)
(1631)(

CKD

)(farmer,

Rando

,Lokiben,

Zulfy

)
DAY END:4
(1643)(

Zulfy

)(

Lokiben

)
(1652)(

Zulfy

)(Lokiben,

tictac

)
(1657)(

Zulfy

)(Lokiben,

tictac

,

Pisskop

)
DAY END:5
(1675)(***No Lynch***)(

tictac

)
(1682)(***No Lynch***)(

tictac

,

farmer

)
(1683)(***No lynch***)(

Lokiben

)

@farmer Why no vote for CKD in 771, 1327 and 1418? If ya had a scumread on UTL from 818, why not push it before 1327?

@Loki

I have six or eight completed FM games under my belt from elsewhere on the web.

Can I see these?
I'm worried that you may be acting more new than you are.

[tictac]

I hear a tiger-rabbit wants a case on Loki. Sink your teeth into this one:

Exhibit A:

333

The first part of this post is a case against Elyse, his primary "scumread". Then there's a part where he defends UTL's lurking. Finally he calls out a possible "slip" by camn and FoSes CKD.

In the first part, Loki makes it look like he's pushing a primary scumread so that he can be seen to be doing something. In the third part, he scumreads his partners for the distancing, but not in a way that really draws heat on either.

Well he hasn't really drawn heat on anyone this game. He could just be bad at convincing people.
Both of them as secondary scumreads this early in the game does strech my suspension of disbelief a bit.

Also of note is that the "slip" he points out would actually exonerate camn if you had flipped town, which he may have been preparing for since your wagon was tied for the largest at the time.

valid

Exhibit B:

866

This one I admit may just be me finding it scummy because I now know he's scum. But at the time of this post, the elephant in the room was the furor over CKD's mason uncovering. Loki gives CKD a slap on the wrist for something CKD said back on Day 1, but then seems hesitant to give his opinion on the big topic of the day. He manages to get plenty of hedging into this post, saying "I don't think the case against ckd is really all that concrete" but then "If there's one post that ultimately changes my mind, it might be this one." (meaning "I don't scumread CKD now, but I'm just leaving this here as an excuse in case it becomes in my interests to do so later.")

I'll give ya avoiding the issue of mason-digging. Not sure about the hedging.

Exhibit C:

1065 through 1075

This was at the beginning of Day 3. Note the sequence of events: Loki comes in and votes Elyse. Then Zulfy votes Elyse. Then CKD comes in and chastises Loki exclusively in 1070 and 1071, and only brings in Zulfy when he butts himself in. Then in 1075 he turns to everyone and declares them obvtown because the real scum would've known about the masons.

Here's what I think happened: CKD and Loki planned to open Day 3 like this, since the result ended up giving Loki a bunch of towncred without any overt buddying. The whole sequence between the two of them was scripted, but, despite Zulfy having been the more recent voter of Elyse when CKD posted, CKD initially only mentions Loki. Why? Because Zulfy wasn't in the script.

This I agree with.
Could be that CKD thought it would be caught anyway, and wanted to wifom the issue of two players looking too town thou.

Exhibit D:

1696 and 1703

These are the two weird posts he made today. It could be because he's never been in 3p Lylo before (but then again, neither have I) but his posts here seem to come from an informed perspective.

In 1696, his reaction to my vote on him is to vote me. His prior posts (specifically, 1655, 1676, and 1694) suggest that he thought you were scum. So why then is his reaction to vote me instead of beseeching me to come to my senses and remove the vote?

Ya. The vote would make sense if he thought ya were declaring scum by voting, but doesn't really fit with him continuing to scumread me.

1703 is the one where he indicated that it hadn't occurred to him that you were conftown. Again, it might be because of inexperience, but this mistake is certainly easier to make if you already know that both of the other two guys are town.

Agreed

Exhibit E:

For what it's worth, the opinions of our peers shortly before they died:

Spoiler: RC (and, implicitly, Elyse as well)

I meant to add, did RC ever give any reasons for scumread me, Elyse? Because he didn't in the thread. -_-

He said that your case on me was storytelling instead of scumhunting and you pointed out scummy things camn did but never followed up.

That's a misrep.
1101 1121, 1122
RC and Elyse were scumreading ya both. I'd say Elyse was leaning towards you a bit more.

Spoiler: pisskop

Im fine killing zulf.

But who tomorrow if he is town? An dont say me because I would have no reason to even bring up ckd.

loki is my backup choice.

If its a binary descision between tictac and loki guess where Id go?

It is potentially ambiguous if "loki" in 1667 is being used as pk's answer to his own question from 1654, but that's the interpretation I hold.

It's pretty ambiguous, what he meant, so I'm gonna disregard it. 1658 was more clear.

I agree on apf

That has weight. Pisskop is pretty experienced.

Farmers sure as hell not scum, I hammered two scum, its either you or Loki. Probs Loki.

But just so I don't misrep him, he did say this:

Pk or tictac. Probs tictac

Getting two of the three of us right isn't bad.

Zulf did hammer two scum, but he did spend enough time pushing me & Elyse that I'm not giving his reads a huge amount of weight.

So there you have it. In addition to this, I'll note about Loki a pattern of low-visibility, especially on the vote counts. It could possibly be a playstyle thing, but if so it'd be a convenient playstyle to skirt by without attracting suspicion.

Well it isn't really. He's gotten heat from it before.
It does make him hard to analyse late-game thou.

[tictac]

I'm sorry to have to do this, but I'm still swamped, and will likely be tomorrow too. Nothing screamed scum!apf to me until he was confirmed just now, so I plan to do some serious research to support my case. Luckily, we're not pressed for time.

No worries. We got time.
I'm busy this weekend too, and the time I do have goes to reading.

@farmer Here's a theory about the no-kill, please poke holes in it:
You were widely townread and would have been a likely doc-target if there was a doc. If you are scum and think there might be a doc, it makes sense for you to no-kill to get conftowned by doc-save.

[tictac]

In order for this to have happened, I'd have had to think there might be a doc, and prior to the no-kill, I wouldn't have had any reason to think that there were.

“Step aside everyone, step aside everyone! I’m a doctor, this man is bleeding profusely, let me help him.” said a voice. It was too late.

I'm thinking you might have thought there was a doc.
The point about it being a risky strategy is a good one.
Why would Loki no-kill as scum? What is scum-loki like? I'm having trouble forming any kind of coherent picture.

Frankly, the first statement is pingy in its own right ("I just want to let everyone know in advance that I'm town in case I do something scummy."),

Pre-emptive defense is a standard scumtell, but it's not unusual for relatively new players to do it as town.
It's an example of the kind of low-hanging fruit scum likes to go for to build their scumreads.

but it's worse in context. apf's explanation for scumreading camn is barely an explanation. He's asked why he likes camn, and he says he likes her votes, as if that settles it. He doesn't explain why he likes the votes, which was obviously what you were digging for, tictac, when you posed him that question.

I think we have established that town isn't always better at answering questions exhaustively than scum. Remember Elyse?

Then almost immediately, camn shoves him away for the same post in which he townreads camn. I propose apf was buddying with camn, and maybe did it a bit too blatantly or clumsily for camn's liking, and she subtly rejected him in that post.

Why would scum buddy a partner? The purpose of buddying is to make the other person like you and not vote for you.

Please don't lynch camn. This is the scummiest wagon of the game so far.

And here's where I lept in front of her wagon. Scum would not say this. Scum would not expend any of their political capital in this thread on such a minimalistic plea. Scum would either stay silent, or maybe try to build up a case in camn's favor.

Self-meta, again.

Meh. I don't think it's self-meta. It's an general observation about the things scum is likely to do, not describing his own playstyle specifically.

This time, it's a terrible abuse of WIFOM. "I did something that scum wouldn't want to do because it's scummy." I guess he'd argue that he meant to say that his presented opinions were independent of his alignment, because scum would actually care about how their opinions reflected on them, but the confidence with which he likes to assert that he is town is overdone.

If farmer is town he is 100% confident he is town. It's impossible for him to be too confident of it.
I will admit that I am uncomfortable with how conscious he is of the towny things he does.

On the prospect of Zulfy scum, my gut tells me that camn would be more inclined to put her partners in the scum or null section of her reads.

Funny, because that's where apf and ckd both were.

What is the scum motivation in that post?

Exhibit C: farmer waffling on ckd

apf on ckd through the ages:


So apf has been all over the place with ckd throughout the game, always finding some new angle that overrides everything prior.
Again, I find his earlier assertion that waffling is something that he does as town a hard sell.

Why? Almost everyone waffles as town.

My interpretation is that apf figured the best way to avoid implication by association was neither to explicitly bus nor buddy ckd.

Well there's no question that he did bus him, if he's scum. How did ya miss that?

Miscelaneous:

It's a little worrying how the energy in the thread has died down after I slowed the momentum of the pisskop wagon. I understand we're still waiting on responses.

This feels like a towncred grab.

It does a bit.
"feels like".. You are still talking like farmer is a

potential

scum, and I'm finding it weird.

apf is good. His scumplay towards the end reminds me of the player that I idolize the most (someone from another forum), in that he really will stop at nothing to build his own towncred in MYLO.
There was the ckd lynch,

That's valid. There was no point in CKD self-destructing like he did if no partners would gain towncred from it, and the person who gained cred was farmer.

and there was the hesitance he demonstrated today with voting you, tictac. You could argue that it would have been easier for him to pile on my one man wagon of you, but that would have been riskier, since you could have plead your case and changed my mind.

1. I kinda doubt I could have.
2. He didn't need to vote early at all. That way either one of us could have voted for the other and he just needed to hammer. He discarded the possibility of mislynching me for no good reason.

The fact is that apf is in no hurry to force a mislynch,

He voted ya really early in the day. It's a risky play since early LYLO votes are generally considered scummy. I doubt he anticipated me townreading him for it.

because he knows that as long as he's being townread, there's no way he can lose. So what he's done, rather than gamble by rushing a lynch, is take his sweet time and ensure his longterm survival, since that's all he needs to win for his entire faction.

Wouldn't it make more sense for him to keep his options open, if he's playing long term?

[tictac]

I know you have a lot on your plate already, but here's one of his more recent scum games: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65168

Ya got me excited there for a sec.

Anyway, I don't know how you handle big decisions, but I know I don't handle them well. I was wracked by meaningless loops of self-questioning last week, until I finally had to come to terms with the fact that some questions don't have good answers. Everyone is going to have done something that looks very town, and everyone is going to have done something that looks very scummy. If you, too, struggle with these things, and feel you've done enough reading and thinking, then consider stepping up to the precipice and jumping. If you don't struggle with these things, carry on reading and thinking.

I wonder if ya'd be saying that if I wasn't liable to vote Loki currently.
I'll probably take the leap soonish, but not yet.

[tictac]

Yeah, ok.
I'm not gonna get any more certain than this.
VOTE: Loki

[tictac]

What's the flip?

[tictac]

Nobody here to tell me if I fucked up or not? :/

[tictac]

I was really close to voting differently too. Still don't get why Loki would no-kill.

[tictac]

If Loki was aware of me not posting elsewhere I've been seriously misreading him.

@Loki Why did ya?

[tictac]

It's alright since we cant read it yet.

[tictac]

As stupid as this sounds, this was not fake. I was rereading the thread, stumbled upon this, and thought I had previously missed an opportunity to hammer the vote.

Yeah. Didn't sound fake to me.
Almost convinced me that you can't be devious enough to no kill as a strategy. Didn't think your actual reason was very likely.
It was the post where ya told me to lynch you that tipped the balance. Perspective of someone who doesn't have teammates left.

[tictac]

Yeah, I got the joke (that time). Just wasn't a joke I could see town making.
I'd have at least spent more time agonizing over it. It's possible that I would have gone for farmer.

@Zulf posting here before the official flip is frowned upon. (at least in newbies)
Let's hope Performer gets online soon.

[tictac]

Ah, ok.
I did think ya were thinking about getting lyched.

[tictac]

Yeah, thanks for modding Performer. The setup was really neat.

I was starting to get worried near the end that I had gone too far into propaganda-mode and that tictac would think I was being a used-car salesman. But I was getting antsy.

Nah. I've been in the situation of having to convince the conftown at LYLO.
The difference between town and scum kinda disappears when a townie joins the informed majority. Kinda sucks having to change tracks like that.
I'm definitely in favour of pulling out everything and the kitchen sink in order to get the other guy lynched.

As side note, I was impressed by the way you argued against my various pushes throughout the game, to the point that I was worried you could probably talk me into anything you liked if you were scum.

I fell hard for camn in the first two days. Looking at the Mason PT it's astonishing how incriminating my associations with her looked.

It happens. I actually counted 992 as a townpoint for you.
It was the suddenness and strength of your switch to CKD after kinda ignoring the case on him that I found suspicious about you.