Mini 1800 - Game Over

[MathBlade]

Reading now. Any important posts please @Mathblade me.

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VOTE: Unvote while reading

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Just caught up and here are my thoughts:
1) Karnos and Wingback are likely aligned scum or have the same alignment. (Reasoning below)
2) If Karnos and Wingback are aligned, likely the third is in the inactive pile based upon how a lack of a counter wagon has emerged. I want to see how the species slot responds in when replaced but the lack of a counterwagon concerns me. This game feels very odd.
3) I think mostly Persivul v Sick was TvT.


487 to 516 by Wingback is a very odd switch to suddenly town reading Karnos. Karnos's ISO is littered with things I cannot simply imagine a town player doing. For example I have not been in a forum mafia game in a very long time where a player intentionally forgets a read, has a confession time, seemingly multiple times, and has such a defeatist attitude. Town fights. It comes back from being slapped in the face and forces people to make reads and take stances. Karnos feels like a lukewarm player faking passion rather than an actual passionate player to find scum.

Let's break this down further. In 499 he has his confession time which is super scummy. Not only that he says he has given up on "this play" town do not have plays they lynch scum. 504 he then says he is going to withhold reads. Even if you suspect you are going to be lynched as a townie you drop reads, bombshells, something.

517 -- Is almost a backhanded insult/compliment/something. They imply that Karnos is not skilled enough to do it. However there were 0 suggestions that he had done anything of the sort. This makes me think that Wingback knows that Karnos is scum and looking for any reason to save Karnos.


This play is just too weird to be anything but the same alignment IMHO.


Dierfire - I really like Dierfire's 558 and reasoning. It seems spot on. Looks like they are trying to figure out the game and analyze things. Town lean.
The Bulge (replaces Chumba) -- Scum lean -- see more below
Mathblade (replaces Snork) -- Me -- The towniest town to ever town
species -- Scum lean -- see more below
qubixes -- Strong Town lean -- Post 175 -- I think qubixes is spot on with the Persuval v Sick discussion. That feels like TvT ripping each other apart. I don't really understand how that got started anyway. I plan on rereading this tonight and seeing how that got started. The first person on the Karnos list according to VC.
Saru -- Strong Town lean -- Post 326 -- This post screams town to me. They read the argument presented, logically break it down, and reiterate their point in such a way that is clear concise and to the point. Side note: 330 made me laugh like hell. Thank you As the McDonald's theme song goes...ba ba ba ba ba I'm lovin' it.
MechaGoomba -- Null read -- I like how he was towards the front of the Karnos lynch but at the same time this is what scares me. Mecha's posts in an ISO isolated seem fine but when I put them together in context I get the heebie jeebies. If I'm wrong about both Wingback and Karnos being scum together I'll be poking here. Hard. 388 specifically gives me a weird vibe.
JohnnyFarrar (replaces ShadyHood) - Town lean - At first I was reading their posts and like WTF -- They seem really arrogant and brutish at first. Almost something I saw with new scum but then there was a well thought out post that made me go, hey this guy is experienced...Which I looked at my notes and then went waaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Their play throws me for a loop. So I started looking for other posts to try to get an idea and short and choppy and brash seems to be their thing.
Kappy -- Null read --With how the wagon formed on Karnos and not Kappy benefit of the doubt here and they are a null read. I really don't like how they voted Karnos in 192 then hopped back on the wagon later though. 484 with you're welcome rubs me as almost sarcastic like a potential thank you for bussing?
Persivul - Very slight town lean -- Seems like newb town -- I don't like the sheep of Johnny but I do like the short and sweet statement on 406. I get similar mixed vibes from the Persivul v Sick drama but the vote pattern says probably town.
Masquerade (replaces Mizzytastic) -- Town derp -- Masquerade is probably either town derp or scum. I do not see what they are getting at in 542. 510 is one of the scummiest posts in Karnos's list. It is very defeatist. Of course town doesn't want to be lynched but if they are they want to make sure the scum are easy to find. But then Karnos is actively not pushing valid reads, not poking people or asking questions. It's all defense. How Masquerade gets town of of that I do not know AT ALL.
karnos - Very likely scum
Wingback (replaces Sickofit1138) -- I think they are probably scum with Karnos for the reasons above.

I know there's a lot of scum leans up there but they are conditional. Species is a scum read because of limited posts then are now being replaced. 121 seems off. They seemed like they wanted to throw shade on people for their RVS vote. This slot seems very scummy to me and will do so unless they suddenly popup with town play and with town tattooed on their ass for extra insurance.

Masquerade falls into that category of not much to go on. 51 and 20 feel like forced interaction between the two. Something feels off of it and unnatural. Furthermore the Mizzy slot votes Karnos early but that slot vote disappears. 146 furthermore feels wrong. JohnnyFarrar's predecessor made an argument about it and Mizzy was really weird in that. I don't see their logic on it at all. 177 also feels like a coach of Karnos. Coupled with Masquerade not voting what is obv scum in Karnos, they'd be the one I'd pick to fill out the likely third scum.

So overall I think the scum is {Karnos, Wingback, and one of Masquerade and Species} leaning Masquerade because of the Karnos not voting pushes it over. I don't think both could really be it as that'd be 4 scum in a 13P game which seems horribly unbalanced.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Karnos

WARNING KARNOS IS AT L-1

[MathBlade]

Have to go to work now so this is a quick phone post. Back late this evening.

@quibixes -- Thanks for pointing out the error. Was reading a lot of pages and I see where I crisscrossed one of the replacements. Will need to reread the Sick/Persivul discussion again because Wingback's response sketches me out and feels like OMGUS. But at the same time that fight felt so TvT.

@Saru -- Really? How the hell do you explain some of Karnos's posts coming from a townie? The defenses seem like stretches to say the least. I am going to reread after work and see if the Wingback part was sleep deprivation but Karnos's post. Explain to me how a townie has some of the posts I have cited. Pretty much anyone not voting Karnos I want an explanation from because that shit doesn't fly. It is the entire context of Karnos's posts that are bad.

If you have questions for me to respond when I get back please @Mathblade me.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: karnos

Still reading at work no time to do a decent reply will get to it later tonight.

[MathBlade]

Still rereading long day at work and have to work weekend. Will find time over it though.

[MathBlade]

I'm not going to keep banging my head into the wall to make a point, if you want to lynch me go ahead. As long as the scum who started this wagon on me get lynch in the following days, I'll consider it a fair trade.

Still rereading the thread but the more I thing about it Wingback is almost certainly derp town. Still don't like Masquerade and don't like Dierfire either now or the species/Magnos slot.

Karnos isn't even consistent in his defeatist statements.
He voted a fucking town read who the hell does that as town? Like what?
586 actual town player was this a slip? This made me re-evaluate my Wingback read into derp town. No town says actual town. 586 IMHO comes from a place of knowledge.

I also don't like Dierfire's pedal back after that post. That is sketchy as hell. Who retreats after someone says "actual town"? Not ready for claims/lynches on your top scum read is bullshit. If they aren't your top scumread anymore say so and who is. If you are unsure of who your top scumread is say that. But this is fucking sketch.

Combining that with the prior defeatist posts puts a big FoS on Dierfire especially the one quoted.

I believe we have caught scum in Karnos and now scum are scrambling to find any sort of lynch and revitalize it. Do not let that happen. We should be lynching Karnos today.

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@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?

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Wtf Karnos!

1) This is scum and needs to die.
2) Mecha may or may not be a mason I don't know but you sure as hell don't give any ideas to scum.
3) No matter what you claim I don't believe you and you're just making shit up to save your own ass.
4) Today has been OMGUS weekly. Scum are trying to start a counter wagon on me. Don't let them.
5) Karnos would not be a NK target because he is scummy as fuck.
6) "Actual town" This means Karnos thinks there is such a thing as "fake town".
7) I will post my arguments whenever I damn well please. I don't give a shit what day of the week it is. I play when I want and others play when they want. I want scum lynched today and you are not sneaking out of this.

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@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?

Did you see this Mecha?

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@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?

I know this question isn't for me, but I feel that if karnos is scum, he has done a good job avoiding implicating his scum partner. I have no idea who it might be.

Garcia'ing bad. Trying to get a read so I can look back at a certain spot I found odd.
When I @Name someone I want them to answer.

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@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?

I have the entire nightphase to figure such things out and so really don't want to waste time with preflip associatives, but if I absolutely had to pick someone, I'd go with either Kappy or maybe Dierfire.

Also, I find it really strange that karnos has been going "you're scummy and terrible and we should lynch you for all these blatant contradictions" and such, and then as soon as MathBlade shows up and starts 1) voting for him and 2) not looking super town, karnos suddenly hypertownreads me with a flimsy mason explanation and then tries to get me to jump onto MathBlade. Not really seeing the read progression there.

I just chalked it down to Karnos being scum and trying to get a lynch where he can. I FoS Wingback and Masquerade and then they both vote me while maintaining Karnos is town which IMO is stupid. Thanks for answering the question. Gotta go back and find a certain post that rubs me wrong just a sec.

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Chumba, I'm confused. What is the difference between stating your opinion about something people don't like to explain why you don't think it is scummy and defending them?

This post here feels wrong during your Chumba reaction test. I was wondering if you noticed it to. I don't know how to explain why but it feels like eww...Like a wishy washy soft question. I was wanting to see if that was on your radar during the reaction test. It was something I caught during my reread.

[MathBlade]

VLA til Monday evening for Father's Day and work

@mod

I do not believe Karnos's claim in the slightest. That claim is so sketch. He literally claims a PR that should not give town results, yet everyone is like "Okay let's not lynch the scummiest player because they claimed a weird variant of cop." And worse a cop that has very little protown reason to state their results.

Furthermore look at Masquerade's first post after the claim. They try to enshrine the Karnos claim as gospel. And I completely disagree with their argument. I would have expected a town player to claim the first time they were at L-1. A town player does not mason hunt and out. Just no. I can think of a couple ways this went down

1) Karnos is a Neopolitan but is scum so Masquerade doesn't like when they say they believe the claim, but at the same time throws shade on Johnny.
2) Karnos is a Neopolitan but is scum so Masquerade is throwing themselves into the limelight here in order to do scum PR preservation.
3) Karnos is not a Neopolitan and is scum and this is a last ditch effort to mislynch town.

We should be lynching Karnos today. See y'all on Monday

[MathBlade]

Oh and not counter claiming FYI

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Doesn't lie* phone post

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Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(4): Persivul, MechaGoomba, Wingback, Masquerade

Wingback

(2): Mathblade, The Bulge

Mathblade

(1): karnos

karnos

(1): qubixes

Kappy

(1): Saru

Not Voting

(4): Dierfire, MagnaofIllusion, Kappy, JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:10)

TheBulge has been prodded.

VOTE: Unvote
VOTE: Karnos

Haven't caught up on the rest of the thread will do so next break.

Think automated tool is busted

[MathBlade]

rning: Mathblade is listed in the "Living Players" area, but does not seem to have posted in this game. If they have, please check the spelling of their username.


Can you please fix the capitalization in the first post so votes work?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: karnos

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Checking tool then asking your question.

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is there some hidden ratio here that makes Neapolitan >80% town or something?

I imagine that when making the role list for this game GreyICE didn't flip a coin for every role that could potentially help either scum or town to determine which alignment it would be.
Later in the game, when we have more flips, we can look at the setup and figure out which it would need more: a town Neapolitan or a scum Neapolitan.
We have 0 flips, are incapable of doing that today, and so shouldn't lynch the claimed cop.

@Masquerade: Okay, so you have a bunch of links to games. Are you planning to analyze them at some point?

From my limited look at his games, I'm willing to write Johnny's behavior off as being playstyle for now. Might come back later.

VOTE: MathBlade
Assume we no lynched, karnos died in the night and flipped town Neapolitan. What would be your reads and why?

@MathBlade: GreyICE did miscapitalize your name, but you also capitalized "karnos" when it should be lowercased.

Dierfire scum for that weird bit at L-1
Species because they are non existent and the slot before them was even more so.
Then I would have to look at the champions of the Karnos wagon. Someone would have had to been pushing that pretty hard.

Gotta go back to work now.

[MathBlade]

Town reads would be Mecha and Wingback.

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Also: 562 : LAMIST.

Okay, if it was warning L-3 or L-2, I could see that. If it was warning L-1 soon after a vote count, maybe. But marking L-1 when vote counts are sparse and multiple people are rereading rather than following along? Really?

Of course, by saying this I might just push him to quickhammer me. I honestly hope I am wrong, I hope an actual town player is on my side here, but knowing I might get lynched in the near future I'd rather out this theory now rather than wait.

Even when about to be lynched, when you have your last chance to contribute to town, you're still so cautious!
You're not saying "These people are the scum, lynch them tomorrow." You're saying "OK, you asked for reads? Here are reads."
Above all, that's what I really don't like. When you have a chance to contribute, you equivocate, but you are willing to reiterate your flimsy defences as much as you need to.

Scum rarely push back against one of the only people defending them when almost everyone else is against them. They'd be ecstatic about having an ally.

Do you believe Karnos would expect that your defense would be able to get the lynch off of him? If yes, why? If no, then why would he care whether you defended him or not?

@GreyICE: Apparently the votecounter registered Mathblade's vote for karnos as for Wingback because they capitalized the first letter?

You will notice in the post you quoted that I had a town read on you. Still do. However I play a lot of games with Titus and your meta reminds me of hers. Get in front, lead, and demonstrate to the thread where your wishes are. Titus does this brilliantly as scum or town. However on D1 she usually cracks under the least bit of suspicion. When you responded to the flow and kept going that was one indication you were town. I also was scum reading Karnos at the time. By putting that there I realized I could try to figure you out early.

Now for the post I quoted. It is the Wingback paragraph that really sold me you were town. It wasn't that you were asking questions it was the how you asked them. Instead of asking what Wingback thought they would get out of it (which is what I would have expected if you were scum trying to rile Wingback up) you seem to be trying to get Wingback to think in a different way and demonstrate where you think their logic is off.

Finally, for me it is a matter of principle. You never let anyone who is that scummy avoid lynch. No matter what they claim. I have won games in face to face where I claim cop and people sneeze at it. When you find scum you kill it. No matter what it begs otherwise.

Now let's get to Dierfire's Unvote and revote -- Either way is fishy.
Let's assume Karnos is scum -- Then the Unvote and revote lets Karnos have a second bite at the apple where their claim magically comes in that the majority of people seem to just let go.
Let's assume Karnos is town -- Then the Unvote revote business looks like someone who is scared of the flip and what it would mean to be there.
Very rarely on a D1 lynch would I find that anyone has a reason to waffle like that and to not even state a reason other than they understand.

@Mecha @Dierfire Should cover both y'all phone posting

[MathBlade]

FYI greyICE fixed the counter Thanks

Unoffical Vote Count

MathBlade

(3): karnos, MechaGoomba, Masquerade

karnos

(2): qubixes, MathBlade

JohnnyFarrar

(2): Persivul, Wingback

Kappy

(2): Saru, Dierfire

Wingback

(1): The Bulge

Not Voting

(3): MagnaofIllusion, Kappy, JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:01:53)

[MathBlade]

Now for the post I quoted. It is the Wingback paragraph that really sold me you were town.

So you were sold that I was town in 601. Makes sense, that explains the shift between 561 and 722. However, that still doesn't explain anything related to the quoted part of 721. Did you not consider me to be a "champion of the karnos wagon"?


On reread, Dierfire is starting to look a bit off to me. One thing I've noticed is that he over-explains everything. Lots of his posts seem to be packed full of information in order to hide the fact that his actual reads are extremely uncontroversial.
Take 228 & 229: He townreads Persivul but doesn't actually engage with the arguments of the people suspecting him, puts a lot of effort into a townread on Chumba despite the fact that she wasn't being scumread or doing anything super important at the time, ambivalently doubtcasts on Sick with a side of preflip associative, and then uses a ton of IIOA to say essentially "I don't get Kappy's Sick reads progression".
Nothing risky, nothing that needs to be explained that much, and yet it's a full screenlength of text. I haven't seen any past game where he did this; has anyone played with him enough to say for certain?

Champions of the wagon means two things to me:
1) Who were the first voters and pushers (and how loud/quiet they continue that push throughout)
2) The loudest players on the lynch.

For example,
If Karnos would flip town then I would want to find the person who originally implied Karnos did something scummy. Then do the same for the first three voters. More than likely of this grouping there is at least one scum. I find it very rare that 4 players in a 13 player game would all be town in that scenario.

In case of the other option I would look at someone trying to promote the train as it was going. This case would be the one you would have fallen into except for where I town read you. Because I was in a hurry for that post for work reasons I just dropped the town reads rather than explaining they would be excluded from the scum options before.

I also take a look at VCA (similar to Titus) but I do it differently. Rather than who was on what spot it is usually telling to me to see major shifts in voting pattern or if someone enters and exits a wagon. I would look at the time around Dierfire really hard to see what reasoning they could have had. So this third case of Champion would be someone who made the lynch happen with strategic votes.

[MathBlade]

Three *
3) Strategic vote placers
God damn it I hate when my phone fucks up

[MathBlade]

So back from V/LA …

I’ll be starting my read in earnest today but have kept a soft eye on the thread via phone since replacing in.

First issue that needs to be clearly stated (and this is mostly for the benefit of Qui and Math) –

Rule Number 1 of Mafia – in a closed set-up you do NOT lynch a claimed investigation role that is un-CCed Day 1. You just don’t. If the claim is countered? Sure it is possible. We will get more information (from Karnos’s potential claimed results, future interactions and Nightkills) to sort him.

Specifically on Karnos’s claim – Neopolitan is actually stronger than some other Non-Alignment Cop roles as it provides 100% clearance with Vanilla Town results. It isn’t as strong for catching scum outside of incorrect VT claims but vetting VTs is huge from a standpoint of putting scum in a bad position as to whether to choose to kill suspected Power-roles or kill VTs who are 100% clear. Any time you handcuff the scum in some way you are benefitting Town.

Fuck your rules. Rule 1 lynch scum. Rule 2 don't mislynch. Everything else is suggestion.

This does not benefit town in any way for this specific PR. If Karnos is scum and targets a scummy player and then Karnos flips scum, we in essence gain nothing except to put any players that Karnos claims were VT under a microscope. However if Karnos flips town then we'd know that those people were townfirms. I would advise caution if we aren't going to do the smart thing and lynch them.

[MathBlade]

Karnos should out all "VT" results, but no "Not VT" results unless they contradict claims. The town should not attempt to direct karnos.

Spoiler: Reasoning

Outing a "VT" result gives a confirmed vanilla townie, which is pretty dang great for giving scum headaches over who to kill.
However, outing a "Not VT" result is essentially useless for town and makes it possible for scum to find PRs easily.
Therefore, karnos should be outing "VT" results but not "Not VT" results.
If we tell karnos who to target, then if he doesn't out his result, it'll be obvious that it was "Not VT."
Therefore, we can't tell karnos who to target.

I will say that I consider a lot of this "but how do we deal with karnos" speculation a waste of time. We're close enough to deadline that getting a decent lynch together should be a priority.

UNVOTE: MathBlade
VOTE: JohnnyFarrar
You've made more posts than any other player that replaced in near the same time as you, and yet you have far less actual content than anyone else.
I could write it off as playstyle, but my meta analysis makes it look pretty clear: you do usually have this style of many short posts, but usually you're moving towards something constructive with them. I can't see that here.


PE, @karnos: Don't assume that scummy players can't be power roles. That said, I personally would recommend you target scummier players, because you can townfirm much more easily than scumfirming, and a townfirm is worth more if it's on a widely suspected player (though preferably someone active enough that they'll be able to make use of conftown status). As stated above, please don't say anything about who you're going to target; not only does it potentially out PRs, it opens the door to a whole new world of WIFOM.

He has no reason to out a "Not VT" result unless they claim VT, and even if he outs every VT result the scum will still have to choose between killing PRs and conftown.

So with all this suspicion on him we're going to leave it up to him who to investigate AND whether or not he states the results?

I like this post here. I think my gut read on Johnny being town is right. I am going to start looking at some of the people who started this wagon and moved it off of Karnos. Probably scum there.

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For the record, I'm willing to go either way. If you think scum might kill my target just to waste the investigation, I could just investigate the scummiest players, and if they aren't killed that is a bit of a tell on it's own. I could at least verify that they are or are not VTs. Of course, if I am investigating by direction then it becomes obvious what the result is if I don't find a VT.

I do have a target in mind currently, if I don't get any other suggestions.

OTOH, I think scum would most likely just kill me outright, and I'd rather be jailed and miss using my power than get killed, so there is that.

What makes you think there is a jail in this setup?

[MathBlade]

I'm inclined to believe Karnos' claim. He's hinted at being PR during his pressure and I think scum would love to claim if they can come up with a good one and since scum have daytalk, if Karnos is scum his buddies could have helped him. I would have expected a claim to happen sooner if he was scum, so to say.
Also, the lack of a counterwagon being pushed tells me scum aren't interested in moving the attention away from Karnos.
I'm not sure about mathblade yet, he should be experienced enough to not assume scum hard-defend each other? If Wingback and I are Karnos' buddies, why would we want to endanger ourselves? For a long time it looked like Karnos was getting lynched no matter what. I'd rather lynch someone who hasn't given an opinion yet. I'll start with Johnny because he suggested it.

VOTE: Johnny
What are your reads on Wingback, Mecha and mathblade atm? Do you believe Karnos' claim?

@Qubixes: My first instinct was 'well that kinda cop is more useful to scum than to town' but that was before I checked the wiki and still thought it was just a fancy name for a vanilla cop. Best case scenario Karnos (if his claim is true and town-aligned) lives until lylo and cleared enough players, or identified scum, to get us a win. But that depends on other factors. I think 2 town cops will make town very strong and I have never seen it happen (tracker/watcher with cop sometimes ye, but not 2 kinds of cops) If there is another cop, I think they should decide for themselves whether to cc or not. I'm not cc'ing Karnos' claim, but if I had a cop-role I wouldn't cc for reasons I don't want to explain rn.

Low and behold what do we have here. Masquerade was actually the first person to drop a vote on Johnny but because of when GreyICE did vote counts it looks like Persival. Then when the wagon starts to pick up steam Masquerade votes me. They also do not explain why they are voting me either or try to explain why they are voting me. Instead it is what they "want". This looks like trying to split the bridges more so than any case they can provide. If they thought Johnny was scum but I was scummiest I would have expected them to at least explain a reason of some kind as to why me over Johnny. This would get people to look more closely at me and try to analyze me, which is what you want people to do to your top scum read. To help gain understanding of if you are right or wrong and why.

Then for Dierfire there is that vote/Unvote/vote to Karnos. When Karnos claimed then Dierfire posted they would look at Johnny and Kappy. They posted one thing where they said they want Johnny to place a vote but then votes Kappy with weak reasoning. I get sick vibes from that.

If we aren't lynching Karnos today, I would pick Dierfire.

VOTE: Dierfire

[MathBlade]

For the record, I'm willing to go either way. If you think scum might kill my target just to waste the investigation, I could just investigate the scummiest players, and if they aren't killed that is a bit of a tell on it's own. I could at least verify that they are or are not VTs. Of course, if I am investigating by direction then it becomes obvious what the result is if I don't find a VT.

I do have a target in mind currently, if I don't get any other suggestions.

OTOH, I think scum would most likely just kill me outright, and I'd rather be jailed and miss using my power than get killed, so there is that.

What makes you think there is a jail in this setup?

And furthermore why call it out here? God I wish we would lynch you right now as this is very bad PR hunting IMHO.

[MathBlade]

I don't think it would result in the jail keeper (if one exists) outing themselves at night. Generally if a role is suggested I have seen conversations go on about it during the day. It is more about then potentially someone reacting to the idea of jailing Karnos or that type of discussion I want to avoid. It also implants ideas in people's heads without evidence to back them up. Then people if setup spec continues accidentally drop crumbs to if they are a PR or not. We don't have enough information to even suggest this. Which is why, respectfully I asked that question to Karnos. I also wanted to see what prompted him to think that specific way. While I believe Karnos is scum, I think most people subscribe IMHO incorrectly to Magnos's mantra. I only commented on it to prevent town derp which I have seen in the past.

I also understand anyone could be lying as well. However my town reads are earned through good posts and if you do bad ones you get increased scrutiny.

Yes I "did that thing" where you were in the group. However there are 13 players in the game and looking at all those categories results in a narrowing down of scope. Then you analyze those people and see what happens. It seems like the majority of people are favoring the information Karnos would in theory give over the analyzation they did of the slot. Some players are likely to be town within that scope. The scope becomes more focus when there are lynches to guide it further.

I do plan on doing a reread when things get a little less hectic at work anyway. It wouldn't be because you are in the net. Obviously there are three kinds of champions I look at. Not every case will have scum all the time. Usually at least one of those cases are right though.

[MathBlade]

Low and behold what do we have here. Masquerade was actually the first person to drop a vote on Johnny but because of when GreyICE did vote counts it looks like Persival. Then when the wagon starts to pick up steam Masquerade votes me. They also do not explain why they are voting me either or try to explain why they are voting me. Instead it is what they "want". This looks like trying to split the bridges more so than any case they can provide. If they thought Johnny was scum but I was scummiest I would have expected them to at least explain a reason of some kind as to why me over Johnny. This would get people to look more closely at me and try to analyze me, which is what you want people to do to your top scum read. To help gain understanding of if you are right or wrong and why.

I was indeed first to vote Johnny. Then I voted Qubixes when Johnny's wagon built up, then I revoted Johnny, then I voted you. If you had issues with my votes, why didn't you address it when I made them?
And since you seem to really want to know why I'm voting you: Snork wasn't impressive at all. You so far have focussed most on Karnos, you also kept your vote there very long and in one of my previous posts I explained why I think that's scummy (683). You keep throwing shade my way but you don't engage with me and you ignored what I said about you in 593 and 669.

Fine. From now on every time I talk with you I will use the damn quote button even though what I post after answers your question. When I am phone posting this is atrociously bad and annoying and makes it very hard to type anything but so you can tell when your posts are responded to.

Whoever since you seem to rehash the same damn points I will outline the answers for them previously.

The main argument in 593 was that my reads don't make sense. I took that feedback to heart and said I was rereading the thread in 585. To just recycle an argument that was already pointed out is sketchy as hell. The point in 593 was already addressed. People noticed flaws in what was clearly a sleep deprived reread which I then corrected.

However since you bring it up again I have seen scum hard defend a lot. Especially during a math tunnel. Anyone who knows me knows I fucking bring it. I will pressure my scum reads until they do something that makes me think they are townie. This causes things that other people may not be used to and forces people to take hard stances. In games that I am in I force my scum reads to take firm stances and show why they believe things.

Now in 669 -- Again a recycled argument. Addressed above though for your convenience.

You have been lynch shopping ever since Karnos's claims. Give us a read list. Towniest to scummiest towniest on top. Go.

[MathBlade]

This does not benefit town in any way for this specific PR. If Karnos is scum and targets a scummy player and then Karnos flips scum, we in essence gain nothing except to put any players that Karnos claims were VT under a microscope. However if Karnos flips town then we'd know that those people were townfirms. I would advise caution if we aren't going to do the smart thing and lynch them.

See this is the sort of argument that I’m not sure comes from someone actually assessing the situation.

1. Making karnos claim his results leaves him open to being caught in a lie (someone counter-claiming his result as inaccurate). This covers both the case that he isn’t actually a Neopolitan or that he is scum and tries to fudge his results.
2. Making karnos claim also leaves him open to being busted by other roles (like Watcher / Tracker / Rolestopper / Jailkeeper / Etc).
3. Of course you take a claim by karnos with a grain of salt until he flips Town. That’s common sense 101. However lynching him and being wrong is absolutely worse than lynching another scum player Day 1 and karnos getting killed at Night as Town.

Low and behold what do we have here. Masquerade was actually the first person to drop a vote on Johnny but because of when GreyICE did vote counts it looks like Persival. Then when the wagon starts to pick up steam Masquerade votes me. They also do not explain why they are voting me either or try to explain why they are voting me. Instead it is what they "want". This looks like trying to split the bridges more so than any case they can provide. If they thought Johnny was scum but I was scummiest I would have expected them to at least explain a reason of some kind as to why me over Johnny. This would get people to look more closely at me and try to analyze me, which is what you want people to do to your top scum read. To help gain understanding of if you are right or wrong and why.

Then for Dierfire there is that vote/Unvote/vote to Karnos. When Karnos claimed then Dierfire posted they would look at Johnny and Kappy. They posted one thing where they said they want Johnny to place a vote but then votes Kappy with weak reasoning. I get sick vibes from that.

If we aren't lynching Karnos today, I would pick Dierfire.

VOTE: Dierfire

This whole post I find really questionable. You specifically went looking for the scum who “moved the wagon off of karnos” despite the fact the karnos’s claim moved the wagon off himself. And you devote a large paragraph to showing why you suspect Masq for both voting for Johnny and not properly explaining his vote for you. The Dierfire analysis is exactly the opposite – there is little in the way of explanation of scummy play and in fact Dier didn’t vote Johnny. But you vote Dier instead for voting away from your gut Town read onto another player instead. This vote does not make any sense in context of your posts hunting scum pushing the Johnny wagon.

Why did you not vote Masq in that spot?

Why do you think Mathblade was misguided in calling me and Karnos partners when that seems to be your stance as well (or at least, that's what I'm gathering from the daytalk comments)?

I don’t think it makes any sense pre-claim for you to karnos to call him Town if you are partners. Scum you has little to gain pushing against the wagon when karnos had been very scummy to that point. It would only tie them neatly in a package to be lynched in succession if karnos flips scum. In fact that only way it makes sense at all is if you were a Goon and karnos is indeed a Neopolitan (or some other important PR) and even then that is only a delaying action. And you didn’t do it in a way that drew significant attention and votes to yourself.

Now if karnos is Town – your positioning makes sense as scum trying to position themselves for Town cred in the case that karnos is lynched. But in that case my Johnny read would require rethining given how strongly Shadyhood defended your slot early on.

I'm also not sure how Post 567 made solid sense from your perspective as you seem pro-Mathblade, anti-Wingback & Karnos.

It makes sense as a post I can see coming from Town. You express several concerns about Mathblade’s stances which I agree with – primarily that you don’t make sense as a karnos partner. The thoughts I have about your potential as a karnos partner are well reflected in the first paragraph. You also address Quib and defend your position on karnos in a pretty clear and cogent manner which reads as Town oriented to me.

Keep in mind – Town can be wrong. I think you wrong about karnos but your method of getting there at the end of the day appears well reasoned.

What do you think of my reasoning for townreading Karnos? Do you think it is implausible for a town player to townread Karnos? If Karnos were to flip town, how would that affect your reads on the people that attacked and defended Karnos and why?

You haven't said anything about Dierfire. What's your opinion on him?

As stated above – I think you are wrong. I think you are putting too much credence in very detailed explanation about how a single string of events only makes sense from Town when others have pointed out why they are at best NAI. But again – you being wrong doesn’t inherently mean you are scum.

That said if karnos is Town my opinion would absolutely change for the reasons I said in my prior section – Town you defending scum karnos is feasible. I don’t see scum you defending scum karnos. But I certainly could see scum you defending a Town karnos who was strongly under fire and a strong possibility for the day’s lynch.

You haven't said anything about Dierfire. What's your opinion on him?

Null. On my first read-through his impact was minimal. I didn’t see anything that stuck out to me as scum posting but I didn’t see thinks that looked Town either. Since I have several stronger candidates I haven’t felt the need to dig into his ISO at this stage.

What is your read on Dier?

Magna, it is already demonstrated that I do not subscribe to the game theory that you do. From my POV especially since scum have daychat this claim just feels wrong. Like all kinds of ewwwwwww. No one has provided a decent reason why Karnos is town. In a face to face Mafia game in Chicago there was a werewolf cop (Cheetory6) who claimed cop and no one CC'd and so everyone assumed he was town and then coasted to a victory. So yes. If I do not believe cop claims I want them lynched because they can and will fuck with you if you let them.

Second post let me stop you right there before you spew more nonsense. The Karnos claim is what contributed to this clusterfuck but that is what Dierfire's L-1 actions need investigating. They have not came online since my vote and I want an explanation. Do I think Masquerade is scum? Yes I do. At this point do I think they are more scummy than Dierfire? No. I want Dierfire to fucking explain.

Gotta run to work now.

[MathBlade]

I think karnos is scum but I’m not voting for him because it is stupid to do so given his claim and the game-state.

I don't do that sort of thing. If someone's likely to be scum, vote them. Claims shift people into the "not likely scum" category when they're not CCed, and into the "definitely scum" category when they are.

Johnny acquired 4 votes in a fairly short period of time after karnos’s claim. If Johnny is Town then there is little chance scum are just going to let that wagon fall by the wayside – especially if karnos is scum. Establishing a strong alternate wagon would be important given the pushes by Math and Quib to lynch karnos even with the claim. Yet the wagon which could have been propelled forward by scum instead was allowed to fizzle.

1) Couldn't you have said that before I badgered you about it? The thing where you're as vague as you can possibly be until called on it is really annoying.
2) That statement assumes that a counterwagon would be needed. If karnos was town, mafia would be gleeful Math and Quib were trying to do their work for them. Given that you said your Johnny read is unaffected by whether or not karnos is scum, that doesn't really make sense.
3) This close to deadline, a fizzling wagon is a benefit for scum. If town ends up scrambling to not No Lynch, mafia can direct it as they please.
4) Insulting the intelligence of those that disagree with you is an easy way to ensure you'll never convince them to agree.


Right now I'm gut-reading Magna as scum, but I'm worried I'm confbiasing and/or blinded by frustration, so I'm not willing to vote him yet.
I'm planning to reread his ISO to find what it is that bugs me; if someone else could look as well to make sure it's not just me, that would be great.

PE:

No one has provided a decent reason why Karnos is town. In a face to face Mafia game in Chicago there was a werewolf cop (Cheetory6) who claimed cop and no one CC'd and so everyone assumed he was town and then coasted to a victory. So yes. If I do not believe cop claims I want them lynched because they can and will fuck with you if you let them.

Just because a bad thing happened once doesn't mean you have to be paranoid about it in every single future case.
How many times have you played in a game where an unCCed cop was town and provided useful results? I'd assume more than one.

I absolutely should be paranoid. Paranoia is an excellent thing. It is about when to apply that paranoia that you are disagreeing with. Yes the number of games where an unCC'd cop provided useful evidence is more than 1, but those unCC'd cops didn't crumb other roles and didn't do even a quarter of those things here. In the games where the cop was unCC'd and was scum (face to face games), we traded a townie for the sake of that information when we did it. Now I'm going to ask you: Is your site theory worth potentially a different townie being lynched? For me, I always evaluate the claim based upon how the rest of their play has been. If there is any shred of redeeming qualities I back off. However no one points to anything but the claim which infuriates me.

The other thing is I really don't like Dierfire's voting pattern further after their response to me asking. It looks like on post 510 that he crumbs vengeful. However, that is not the claim they ended up doing. The most likely result is that since the Karnos wagon was picking up steam that scum said to start dropping off power role crumbs.If he was really evaluating Karnos for role claims, why would he not be more suspicious when Karnos claims? They then link to 657 in the following post as a post they agree with.

657 is an absolutely horrible post. Horrible. Masquerade says if they were scum they would have claimed sooner. More like if they were town they would have claimed the first time they were at L-1. Secondly, the lack of a counterwagon is a shitty argument here for two reasons. A) There were a fuck ton of replacements into the game. Arguing that there wasn't a counterwagon is ridiculous. Hell, if Masquerade really suspected me of being scum, the argument can be made that I was forced to bus Karnos(more on this later regarding Magna). If Masquerade really suspected me at that time I don't think Masquerade would have brought up the lack of a counterwagon followed up with lynched no matter what in the same post. Lynched no matter what would mean you'd look for scum bussers not a counter wagon.

This brings me back to Masquerade's posts:

Their biggest gripe was why I didn't bring it up when it happened. I only had minutes in order to get my posts out to try to understand because I was on VLA. I didn't have time to go into a wall into every little instance Masq was scummy. In general I pointed to their lack of passion and how they aren't pushing me. Then they come back and say they are okay to move back to Johnny if they have to for time. Again -- I did not ignore your posts. I either addressed them in another person's answer or they were no longer relevant. Their next post is about how they want my lynch. Apathetic again no reasons. There's no push. They aren't poking at what they find bad about my posts and trying to explain themselves to everyone. They are just "I want this" (paraphrase).

Magna then also tries to suggest that I could be bussing Karnos. This along with Wingback's 782 is sketchy as well as Masq's argument of a lack of a counterwagon is sketchy. I already FoS'd these two as a potential combo. This looks like a way to support having a read without actually having one. They also ask why I did not vote Masq in that slot. This is really telling as it looks like Magna is trying to get buy in from a player that seems mostly town read rather than actually having stances. That second paragraph is also bullshit. Claims do not move votes. People vote/unvote based on what they read. Secondly a gut town read when I was reading was just that. Gut. If something changes to give my gut indigestion, I poke at that thing til it no longer gives me indigestion or confirms itself as eternal bullshit spewer deserving of lynch. That town lean was before Dierfire started doing crazy vote shit.

Johnny Farrar is a town read based upon meta I have read and the current events in the thread. This lynch looks strongly like something weird is going on. IMHO Mecha's warning bells about the Johnny lynch are probably accurate. Furthermore, I don't like how when I suggested Masquerade and Magna's slot as scum and now they are both dropping shade on my slot while actively pushing other agendas or none at all.

If we don't lynch Karnos, we should lynch within these three IMHO.

VOTE: Masquerade

I'm changing my vote to Masquerade because Dierfire looks to be making an effort while Masquerade is doing the exact same shit I called them out for in 784 and they have had 24 hours to give a reads list with actual stances in it.

Manga/Dierfire -- You should give a reads list as well. If Karnos is scum, then it is highly probable that I am wrong on at least one of you three. Do something other than respond. Breathe. Live. Right now for all three of your slots I'm having a hard time finding what you believe. (I was including Dierfire in this but they already said they were going to when I pressed preview for this post.)

[MathBlade]

I'm here just really quick before having to go, and the bits my eyes caught in mathblade's post made me not even want to read it because it's a big collection of misreps.
Mathblade or me today. Lets go.

Which is it? Did you read it and think it was misreps? Or did you read a small bit of it and decide it is a misrep and not read further?

[MathBlade]

Too many the huge wall posts lately. Can't anyone write a concise short point anymore?

We should be lynching Mathblade.

Mechagoomba, you asked me what my reads are when I was about to by lynched, but now nothing is being done with them. Look at Mathblade's iso, there is no slow logical progression. Two reading posts, and then a massive wall of text demanding my lynch followed by immediate vote to L-1 561 562 You can see how hastily the post was crafted because he calls Persivul vs Sickofit "TvT" while at the same time calling Wingback "probably scum" - this sloppy mistake shows he didn't really do the work, but rather was just desperate to get out a hit piece on me ASAP before the wagon lost momentum.

666 also strikes me as scum motivated, pushing for a lynch on Father's day when some players won't be able to check in.

His posts since my claim have just been focused on getting any other player lynched while keeping the idea that I am scum on top of everyone's mind. I get a sense that I'm being setup, like scum have a blocker or something, so they can push for my lynch tomorrow when I don't get a result.


A few updated reads:

Persivul: I still have a town sense from him, but it seems like he is posting less than in other games, that could be NAI though. prob town

MagnaofIllusion: My read of species was based largely on inactivity, and I am seeing a totally different side from the slot with a more active player in it. It almost feels like he is saying "karnos is scum but we can't lynch him due to the claim", setting things up to lynch me later, but to be fair that is probably just personal bias. null

Masquerade: Was mostly a null read, but the recent interactions with Mathblade moves him to a solid town read. My sense is that masq and mathblade couldn't be same alignment.

Mathblade: See above. I am in the minority here though, and I am will to switch votes to prevent a no-lynch, but would much prefer to just lynch mathblade. scum

JohnnyFarrar: I really don't see the scum read here, but maybe I'm being bias because he defended me to a degree. He can't keep using the "busy" excuse forever, especially as we approach the end of the game day. null/town

Wingback: I don't know anymore. If he was scum looking for towncred by stopping my wagon, he must have been tempted to actually hammer after my claim and he didn't, so that tempers my previous scum read. He could be scum playing the long con, but I'm finding it less likely at this point. null (not due to lack of indication, but due to conflicting indicators)

Rinse. Wash. Repeat. You going to say something new here? You made these points eons ago. Are you going to actually put effort into what you think?

[MathBlade]

You can see how hastily the post was crafted because he calls Persivul vs Sickofit "TvT" while at the same time calling Wingback "probably scum" - this sloppy mistake shows he didn't really do the work, but rather was just desperate to get out a hit piece on me ASAP before the wagon lost momentum.

This.

@Qubixes: Here it is very, very concise:

Snork wasn't impressive at all. You so far have focussed most on Karnos, you also kept your vote there very long and in one of my previous posts I explained why I think that's scummy (683). You keep throwing shade my way but you don't engage with me and you ignored what I said about you in 593 and 669.

And math keeps on ignoring or miss-reading everything I say. Do you agree with his observations of me in his 803? To me it feels like he went through my iso and looked for keywords he could use against me, but he got a lot of stuff so wrong I'm not even going to dignify it with a response.
And why is he starting a new wagon on Dierfire, which picks up a little bit of steam, then switches to another new wagon with now even less time left?
My flip won't prove mathblade's alignment in any way or form, I mostly hope that everyone sees math's case on me blows. I offer myself into a 1v1 because of how certain I am that he's scum.

Again you quote the post I responded to. Once indirectly once directy. If you feel there is something I have not addressed tell me. Stop respamming the same post and calling it an argument. Still waiting on your read wall to take a stance on something.

[MathBlade]

I didn't have time to go into a wall into every little instance Masq was scummy.

No. No. Absolutely not.
I know for a fact you are capable of posting without drowning the thread in walls. Even an extremely quick skim of your past games proves that.
Stop complaining that you can't bludgeon people into agreeing with you by throwing words at them until they assume you're right.
Start making arguments that people will be able to read and understand.

That town lean was before Dierfire started doing crazy vote shit.

Explain to me, without walling, without assuming anything is obvious, why moving from L-2 to L-1 could possibly be scum-motivated, as well as why the explanation Dierfire has given is inadequate.

Examine your assumptions. Your argument is built on false premises.

this sloppy mistake shows they didn't really do the work, but rather was just desperate to get out a hit piece on me ASAP before the wagon lost momentum.

I feel that the wagon was losing momentum already. It had stalled hard at L-2 when we were doing the long back-and-forths; the masonspec was what got people voting for you seriously.
I would say that MathBlade's read does look rushed, but that sort of thing is relatively common when people are just replacing in; if I had to guess, I'd say they were doing a really quick reread so they could get caught up and contributing quickly.

I mostly hope that everyone sees math's case on me blows. I offer myself into a 1v1 because of how certain I am that they're scum.

You have 0 votes on you; I think everyone already sees how bad Math's case is. However, I'm not convinced they're scum; it's easy for town to go super tunnely, super wally, and end up hurting the town by burying everything in giant TvT 1v1s. Bad case =/= scum; rushed case =/= scum; stupid case =/= scum, even.

Dierfire's post makes no sense. If at first he thought that Karnos was a role and then unvoted. Why did he all of a sudden revote? It's not like the post that caused Dierfire to think this disappeared. The fact you "partially" explain it and then say that it is a chronological order would be understood. In that case, why are you not worried about the fact that 510 that Karnos crumbed vengeful. This isn't that he'd like a scum to be lynched after he dies...That is with me. That's a pretty blatant vengeful crumb. I also agree that it is a partial explanation. It feels like you put that explanation together because I got suspicious of it (e.g. you asked why it was funny) instead of just explaining your reasons. If someone asks me why I do something I answer. I don't ask them why they think I am weird. I know I am and own my shit.

Motivation is simple: He wanted a claim. They said so themselves. Karnos was already at l-1 and didn't claim the first time.

[MathBlade]

Lastly, the wagon was not dying down in how I read it. Most of the people not on the wagon were inactive. What makes you say it was dying down Mecha?

[MathBlade]

I absolutely should be paranoid. Paranoia is an excellent thing. It is about when to apply that paranoia that you are disagreeing with. Yes the number of games where an unCC'd cop provided useful evidence is more than 1, but those unCC'd cops didn't crumb other roles and didn't do even a quarter of those things here. In the games where the cop was unCC'd and was scum (face to face games), we traded a townie for the sake of that information when we did it.

Now I'm going to ask you: Is your site theory worth potentially a different townie being lynched?

For me, I always evaluate the claim based upon how the rest of their play has been. If there is any shred of redeeming qualities I back off. However no one points to anything but the claim which infuriates me.

1. Where is said other crumb you are claiming as a basis for your paranoia?
2. Before you said the UnCCed cop cruised to victory which ostensibly means there were more Town lynched than just one. Why is it, in your theory, as now or never situation? That’s not the case at all.
3. The bolded looks like a slip to me – you specifically say talk about the risk of a “different Townie being lynched” when you are talking about lynching karnos? Ooops a little bit of unconscious knowledge came leaking out right there didn’ t it.

The second the Johnny wagon becomes less viable than Math’s I am moving there.

It almost feels like he is saying "karnos is scum but we can't lynch him due to the claim", setting things up to lynch me later,

JohnnyFarrar: I really don't see the scum read here, but maybe I'm being bias because he defended me to a degree. He can't keep using the "busy" excuse forever, especially as we approach the end of the game day.

So karnos – let’s talk about setting up positions to make it easy to justify later lynches and why this isn’t what you are doing with Johnny here …

See prior post for the vengeful crumb.
Now or never is a blatant misrep. As I said, most of the times if you don't lynch the person who comes under pressure and go into a D1 lynch, we're more than likely going to end up lynching a townie d1. Not only are the majority of lynches on d1 town, but add in the fact of pressure for time after forcing someone to claim, it adds to the difficulty of lynching scum.
Also any time you wish to start scum hunting would be good instead of fabricating scum slips where none exist. I was making a point about lynching someone who could be town instead of your scum read is stupid. I am town. However that is a claim I have to prove to everyone through my posts.

[MathBlade]

Personally I don't feel like going back through 33 pages until we have a flip.

Then post something useful on what you have read. Lurk sac is suck sac.

[MathBlade]

Mafia is a forums game based on READING. Reading isn’t a hardship.


So karnos – let’s talk about setting up positions to make it easy to justify later lynches and why this isn’t what you are doing with Johnny here …

Okay, lets be clear. I want to lynch mathblade, I think he is the most obvious scum.

However, I will vote Johnny if the need arises. This is a team game. While I like to think I have it all figured out, truthfully it's all a lot of guesswork and hunches. If the majority, including my main town reads, decide to lynch someone, I'll move my vote to help it happen. I'm not going to be stubborn and cause a no-lynch.

As to your first point above, the game is very much a writing game as much as it is a reading game. Sometimes a point that could be made in a couple sentences becomes a meandering page of text. Say more with less! I'm honestly not expecting any real change in this regard, it was mostly just an expression to share my feeling on the matter.

...You mean you really want my mislynch but you'll go ahead and probably mislynch Johnny if begged? No lynch is bad yes. But so is blindly sheeping because the majority says so. It was pointed out earlier in the day at you that you vote your scum reads. Like what the everloving fuck?

[MathBlade]

I just really feel like Mathblade is looking for a viable wagon that isn't Johnny. I think Mathblade hoped Johnny would get lynched sooner and then that didn't happen and now he has to maintain his stance on Johnny as a townlean so try to start another wagon, but someone not too viable so finally we'll end up with either a Johnny-lynch anyway, or a no-lynch. Johnny is more likely town than scum in this scenario. I don't have a strong read on Johnny currently, I wish I had. I'm not opposed to lynching him but I'd rather keep fighting for a stronger scumread a little while longer.

@Mathblade: Why is Johnny a townlean again?

Johnny is a townlean due to their ISO. When their replace in was so blatantly choppy at first that sent warning bells in my head. Surely no player is this obstinate.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=18774
I took a look at a recent game and they are doing a lot of the same things here. Short choppy posts. Doesn't reread a thread and does quippy one liners. That seems to continue here. When he does post he makes it short and (usually) sweet.

[MathBlade]

Please do. I looked in a hurry as I am getting ready for work at Magna's ISO by searching for the word "meta" in their ISO and none of those posts came up with a post about Johnny's meta.

Also are you going to answer 826? I find it completely hypocritical that you scum read me for "ignoring" posts I addressed and then ignore my numerous requests for your reads and now direct questions to you.

[MathBlade]

Anyway, for bloodthirsty players like Mecha and qubixes, why not use this time to be productive? If I am scum, who are my scum partners?

I'm really curious to see what you think, seeing what you think prior to my flip is much more valuable from a town perspective. If I'm going down, I'd like to take at least one scum with me.

510 was mentioned in the prior post. For complaining about people not wanting to read you sure don't either.

Taking scum with you is a vengeful crumb. He doesn't say that he'd like to catch scum or point them out. No. He says take them with me. The only way that happens is if Karnos is vengeful. Hence this post is a vengeful crumb.


@Masquerade -- Magna says the post doesn't exist. My read of Johnny says that he is town especially with how the wagon moved off of Karnos. The Johnny wagon eeks of desperation by scum to not lynch Karnos.

[MathBlade]

Dude shut up and lynch me. I want to see you try to blame it on me being bad as a player when you're really just confbiasing out your ass.

This is a straight up Appeal To Fear - "Lynch me and you are going to look terrible".

Furthermore since it is established you aren't actually reading my posts. It clearly follows that the rest of your response is clear misrepresentation/frame up. It feels like you are trying to do the same thing to Mecha.

In fact your entire last post is nothing but shade. You gonna ask questions of people to determine their alignment? Or do you just want to admit you're scum?

[MathBlade]

Anyway, for bloodthirsty players like Mecha and qubixes, why not use this time to be productive? If I am scum, who are my scum partners?

I'm really curious to see what you think, seeing what you think prior to my flip is much more valuable from a town perspective. If I'm going down, I'd like to take at least one scum with me.

510 was mentioned in the prior post. For complaining about people not wanting to read you sure don't either.

Taking scum with you is a vengeful crumb. He doesn't say that he'd like to catch scum or point them out. No. He says take them with me. The only way that happens is if Karnos is vengeful. Hence this post is a vengeful crumb.


@Masquerade -- Magna says the post doesn't exist. My read of Johnny says that he is town especially with how the wagon moved off of Karnos. The Johnny wagon eeks of desperation by scum to not lynch Karnos.

Already did. Determined not to read aren't you?

VOTE: MagnaOfIllusions

[MathBlade]

People.
We have a single day left. Replacements will not cause an extension; we had something like 5 replacements and deadline only got extended 2 days. 1 replacement won't make a difference to the deadline.
Right now, we've got a couple of players that are getting into giant wall vs. wall slapfights that do nothing to convince anyone of anything. These people need to recalibrate their priorities, because right now they're playing to look smart at the expense of actually helping town.
We then have the players who up to now have been productive, who have good ideas, but aren't posting, quite possibly because of the impenetrable walls.

If the day continues as it has been going, there is almost certainly going to be a no lynch.
Even if a lynch does materialize, I have no confidence it will hit scum. I think Johnny is the most likely to be scum, but I'm not super confident that he is.
If day 2 ends up going down this same road of arrogant posturing and meaningless back-and-forth, we might as well call the game for scum there.

Please try to make this a game where it's worth trying to scumhunt. Don't force people to enter the wall wars if they want to be heard.

This. So this. I am trying to keep my posts more brief but I feel like we are derping so damn hard right now. I am pushing my top scum reads because I really think Johnny is town. It is really hard to elaborate why but the way votes happened screams Johnny is town.

[MathBlade]

Okay, lets be clear. I want to lynch mathblade, I think he is the most obvious scum.

However, I will vote Johnny if the need arises. This is a team game. While I like to think I have it all figured out, truthfully it's all a lot of guesswork and hunches. If the majority, including my main town reads, decide to lynch someone, I'll move my vote to help it happen. I'm not going to be stubborn and cause a no-lynch.

Well then – why again is it something you intimate to be scummy behavior for me to have a reason not to pursue your lynch today (your claim) but still scum reading you and potentially looking to lynch you in future days but when you take a similar stance it is reasonable Town play. Seems to me to be a case of Cognitive Dissonance …

The two shouldn't be equated. My thought was that if you were scum trying to get me lynched, maybe scum have a roleblocker, or some other role to mess with my ability to investigate. I get a nagging feeling that the talk about lynching me tomorrow comes from knowing that I won't have investigation results because you already know I will be blocked somehow. Or, maybe it's because you know I will be nightkilled and it's a misdirect. It just feels off to me. I don't have a strong scum read otherwise, but it is what it is.

I was not trying to imply that simply having a FOS on me while voting someone else is a terrible thing. I just get this feeling while reading that maybe there is some detail to be read between the lines.

As far as my willingness to switch my vote, that isn't something that could be manipulated by some power-role or nightkill. If the mathblade lynch doesn't happen, my vote isn't going to help anything by sitting on him. I can either move it to a viable lynch, or I can be part of the problem and potentially leave us with a no-lynch. It's essentially out of my control.

Bad post is bad. This looks like an attempt to escape the Neo claim early. So much bad here.

[MathBlade]

First of all, I had no time to check at the time but I distinctly remember someone saying something about Johnny's meta. I thought it was magna (I still do actually..) but he says it's not so it might take me a bit to find.

Please do. I looked in a hurry as I am getting ready for work at Magna's ISO by searching for the word "meta" in their ISO and none of those posts came up with a post about Johnny's meta.

Also are you going to answer 826? I find it completely hypocritical that you scum read me for "ignoring" posts I addressed and then ignore my numerous requests for your reads and now direct questions to you.

I skimmed over your wall and saw some misreps. You can try to read my iso again properly and then try again.
For one, I did not say I would have claimed sooner if I was scum, I said I expected scum to claim sooner than Karnos did. This is just one example of stuff you have misinterpreted, and I'm stuck on a scumread on you and there is nothing anyone can do this dayphase to change that. I will reevaluate after we've had flips.
Please go and worry about getting a lynch at all today, it's obvious that I'm not able to get a wagon going on you.

Now off to find that thing..

Oh, one more thing, I never took 510 as a crumb, but I suck at those. Why did you wait so long to bring it up?

I didn't bring it up directly. However I did bring it up when I said I wouldn't be believing Karnos if they claimed. If you are vengeful and crumbing the proper strategy is if you are ever scumread hard is claim VT and fall on your sword and take out a scum. I also hinted at it with the Dierfire questioning / prodding of their votes. If I notice something I either stay very very silent about it or give a quick brief poke. I wouldn't immediately out a vengeful. That nukes their viability. Claiming Neopolitan and crumbing vengeful makes Karnos confirmed scum to me.

[MathBlade]

@Mathblade (and Magna):

You've made more posts than any other player that replaced in near the same time as you, and yet you have far less actual content than anyone else.
I could write it off as playstyle, but my meta analysis makes it look pretty clear: you do usually have this style of many short posts, but usually you're moving towards something constructive with them. I can't see that here.

Sorry guysm I confused your names!

IMHO Mecha is biased here. 469 is content. Granted they haven't been posting as much content but they are moving towards constructive things.

[MathBlade]

If I brought it up directly before Dierfire explained then I wouldn't have been able to get an accurate read on Dierfire's vote shift.

We have a day. I have to get back to work but let's lynch scum. To me that is not Johnny.

[MathBlade]

Hey Firebringer! Thanks for replacing in. You're going to want to read Chumba and Bulge at minimum as they replaced into the same slot. Responses coming to rest now. A

[MathBlade]

Claiming Neopolitan and crumbing vengeful makes Karnos confirmed scum to me.

It would make him confscum to me

if karnos crumbed vengeful.

I don't believe that, because Occam's Razor suggests that a hypothetical scum!karnos didn't actually crumb a role that would get him instalynched, using wording that is so unspecific I wouldn't accept it as a crumb if he did claim vengeful, only to claim a completely different role later, in a game where scum have daytalk.

469 is content. [...] they are moving towards constructive things.

469 was one of the earliest posts Johnny made. If anything, he's moving away from being constructive.
Regardless of that, I don't think 469 actually was content. It was long, sure, but almost all of it was extremely inoffensive. He townreads Mizzy, Persy, and me while scumreading Chumba, karnos, and kappy; he thinks sick's play is bad, but also that he shouldn't be lynched. Oh, and all of this is based on posts over 10 pages back.
Can you honestly say that anything in that post moved the game forward? Did anyone argue with it? Question it? Use it to back their own theories? No. It stood alone, contributing nothing but words.

It would make sense if Karnos is newb scum who didn't talk about it to anyone. But yeah that is a pretty big assumption :/ I will have to ruminate on that one.

About Johnny - No one interacting with Johnny is not anyone's fault but our own. You're saying the post didn't move anything forward but very few of these posts actually are. Trying to get reads out of people has been extremely painful (like Masq). A post's worth is not measured by how many interactions but how people react to it. The fact very few people poked at it, town or scum, probably means that the majority of the scum reads are not scum but the majority of the town reads are probably town. A player is not measured by how many posts they make or how many words but by the actions evoked.

[MathBlade]

Okay, not much really in that quick go through of iso.
The things I could see being him scum were his actions regarding other players which seemed kind of buddy/extremely friendly attitude, at least in the beginning, it kind of drops off a little with some apathetic attitute later in the day.

That oculd just be player/mood at the time, but it kind of seems actually scummy. I could hammer this.
Anyone else want to go into that?

@Mod do we get anymore extensions or is the deadline correct in vc

Because here? I thought you were doing your slot's ISO or did you mean Johnny?

[MathBlade]

I miss context sometimes. I am working on it though.

Speaking of working on things where are your reads?

[MathBlade]

Gather them up into a post for me as reads change Masq. Thought it was obvious about that.

Because it is standard SOP for me to read the posts of the slot I replace into at least. The entire game if it is short enough.

Read mine and Karnos's please. Karnos's play is critical to reads IMO.

[MathBlade]

Driving home be back in an hour or so.

[MathBlade]

Why do you want Fire to read you? If you're town, why do you want him to waste his time getting a townread on you when he should be figuring out whether to hammer Johnny or fire up a new wagon?
I'm not putting my reads into one post. Why did you stop voting me btw? Why is Magna a better wagon for you?

I want Fire to read me so he can determine I am town and where I am coming from. I have nothing to be afraid of from it and I would want him to read the whole game but I think mine and Karnos provide the most light into today.

So I take it you are dodging the question then? Don't make me CP the first post and then ask who you think is town and who you think is scum for each one. Because then if you don't answer it would be ignoring the question. Let's make life easier and you take concrete stances on people. I haven't heard your opinion on 90% (maybe a slight exaggeration) of players recently? Have your reads changed? I want everyone's reads to be clear. Why are you scared of putting them down?

Are you reading my posts? Magna wasn't reading mine and just grasping at straws to try to say things were scummy. That is why they got the vote. So much lack of reading....

We are screwed if people do not read the fucking thread. Seriously. Like Claudia in Warehouse 13 (RTFM or RTFT in this case)

Magna is a better wagon for all of us. 1) Because not on a town read of mine 2) Because he isn't reading with intent to understand. He is cherry picking. 3) Because Johnny seems to be a counter wagon to Karnos and a policy lynch.

[MathBlade]

Jesus Christ Meccha wtf is your deal? Why the hell are you so pissed that I am reading Karnos as scum? I did as you asked and assumed Karnos is town for that hypothetical but that was all it was. If you expect me to change my play because of your hissy fit you are surely mistaken.

You get pissed at me for thinking Karnos is scum, yet doing the townie thing in trying to get my scum reads lynched. I don't see anyway Karnos is town. I just don't. The thread decided to worship the allmighty site meta that says "Don't lynch an UnCC'd PR day one". I don't subscribe to that. So since Karnos hasn't done anything to merit a town read they don't get one. Therefore since the thread will not lynch my top scum read I must poke and prod for the remaining scum.

If Karnos became a valid wagon my vote would be on them in a heartbeat. Magna is not a vanity vote. Classifying it as such is misrep. They are blatantly not read posts. They are making no efforts and scum hunting and just throwing up words. Misrepresenting people's posts and just overall bad play. The fact they are probably aligned with Karnos is icing on the cake. Magna's posts are fucking terrible.

My focus is removed from Karnos. I am not screaming for Karnos's lynch every ten seconds. I am, however, allowed to respectfully disagree with how everyone is in essence ignoring 3/4s of the day for a fucking policy lynch. If you think Johnny is town, post a better case than OMG lurker. Because lurking is not alignment indicative. The fact they were on and tried to open themselves up but no one was here probably speaks to a timezone difference. If you are wanting to lynch them as your top scumread when we have had multiple extensions then I would question whether we are reading the same thread.

You can think I am a stuck up asshole who has a pole up her ass but I am entitled to my reads. And I do not change them based on someone having a temper tantrum. As I said earlier until Karnos earns a town read from me, I will read him as scum. Period. They can claim their shit don't stink but that is all it is. A claim. This site meta is so fucked up it is ridiculous.

[MathBlade]

@MechaGoomba

There's enough here that I need to ask whether there's a good reason for MathBlade, as Mafia, to keep such focus on karnos and avoid the wagon on JohnnyFarrar.

Hmm. Well, MathBlade started making giant posts once the Johnny wagon was picking up speed; before that, their posting was reasonably restrained. Could be a sign of panic?
On the other hand, having the only two players who are under serious suspicion as scumbuddies seems far too convenient.

I agree. To clarify: having already noted that JohnnyFarrar would make a good partner for karnos, I'm disturbed by the way that MathBlade treats them differently--if all three are Mafia, I don't see a reason for MathBlade to be on the karnos wagon and not on the JohnnyFarrar wagon.

@MathBlade

I have a question about your approach to JohnnyFarrar. You seem to be making many reads based on associations with karnos on the presumption that karnos is Mafia. Given this assumption, why are you not suspicious of JohnnyFarrar, who vocalized support for lynching karnos but failed to cast a vote there (or anywhere else)?

Because that is not Johnny's style. We use votes as tools to help pressure and poke and figure out alignment. His vote is like an atom bomb. The world listens when he does. Go look at Johnny's ISO. It is brief quips and quads the entire time. I see nothing different than his town meta except laziness. And laziness while super annoying is not alignment indicative. If Karnos is scum I don't see a second wagon popping up on another scum in 16 posts. I don't see that happening.

[MathBlade]

....I swear this was dumb Johnny has clearly demonstrated they are on a different timezone. That hammer is all kinds of bad.

Still getting ready for work and the amount of walls posted was staggering.

[MathBlade]

Mecha. I mean not reading. Both him and Masq have asked the same question and repeated the same talking points I have already addressed. For example the vengeful crumb question after I answered it. Masq kept pushing I ignored things after indirect and direct answer once and still won't provide reads. Then Karnos does L-1 and then Masq immediately hammers.

This shit. This is what I am talking about about Champion of the wagon. Masq just pulled a perfect example of it. I plan on poking the shit out of Masquerade tomorrow because with how that hammer went down from my POV I don't think Johnny flips scum.

[MathBlade]

Dierfire is a bad pick. Definitely could be scum to me if one of Magna/Masq isn't.

And for posterity purposes I know who I would pick but I think the endeavor is fruitless as mentioned before.

Symbolic vote change Masq

<< If day was still going I would vote here but don't want to mess with automated vote counter.

[MathBlade]

Running late now reading backwards will catch up later. Left off before Masq's posts.

[MathBlade]

@Mathblade, why would a hypothetical scum-Masquerade quickhammer Johnny if all the other lynch options (Dierfire, Mathblade) are town? You say Dierfire is a bad pick and I'm assuming you think you are town.

Masquerade's hammer makes the most sense if he's scum with one of Mathblade or Dierfire, and Johnny is town. I'm guessing he saw the case on Dierfire and qubixes agreeing and panicked at the possibility of a last minute switch. I don't buy for a second that there would be "apathy and no flip" when there are more than two days left to deadline. Also think if Masquerade was town, he'd at least give Johnny time to claim after hammer intent was stated. There was a four minute gap between his intent and hammer.

I need to thoroughly re-read Saru as well. In my notes I had him as town for his angry/genuine response to Persivul and his breakdown of Kappy's logic in Post 237. But his later posting has been a cause for concern.

I am of the opinion if Karnos is a Neopolitan which I doubt they have to townfirm here. That is how we caged in the role. Forcing them to do NKs after confirming town. If they hit scummy targets and then claim PR then we are back in the same dilemma as today. Do we trust Karnos or the the person they claim is a PR? If you are going to rely on this "site meta" bullshit at this point it has to be followed through. Otherwise the cage is simply not effective. We make scum townfirm.

I don't quite get how you get it makes sense for it to me be and Masquerade or Masq and Dierfire. Care to explain?

[MathBlade]

I think wingback means that the most likely counter-wagons to Johnny's were your wagon and Dierfire's wagon. If Masq is scum panick hammering, he is most likely to be panicking because there is a competing scum wagon that he wants to prevent from taking off.

Why are you Garcia'ing a question to Wingback?
People stop with Garcia'ing unless the person gives you permission.
Sometimes questions to that person are for a reason.

[MathBlade]

@Mecha: Wouldn't a scum Johnny flip not implicate me more? Also, obviously wasn't the reason I hopped off.

...Why the hell are you thinking in terms of implicate me more? Why are you not thinking in terms of If I was scum wouldn't I have stayed on the wagon?

[MathBlade]

Why? And what are your reads since replacing in?

What do you think about end of the day?

[MathBlade]

@Mathblade: Will answer your question after Mecha answered mine.

VOTE: Saru

Or you can answer mine now as your answer to a question should not depend upon what Mecha says.

VOTE: quibixes

@Karnos -- Results. Now.

[MathBlade]

@Mathblade: I don't want to influence Mecha's answer by explaining my question. If he's not around today, I'll get to it tonight/tomorrow.

@Saru: I don't feel your questions are honest, so I don't feel compelled to answer them in an elaborate way. At least not right now.

....That....is......stupid. How would explaining your choice of words influence Mecha's answer?

[MathBlade]

Why? And what are your reads since replacing in?

What do you think about end of the day?

I didn't really examine much mathblade. I checked immediately seeing the flip of wingback who they massively scumread and voted that person. Seems like a good direction for the day.

What is up with replacements not reading/examining things. This is bad. This must stop.
A vote without reasons makes me suspect Dierfire might be being set up. You can post something resembling an argument right?

[MathBlade]

I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.

You sure you aren't just full of shit? Did some reading overnight to try to find Neopolitan games and I found http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7751207

Do you want to make things easy and rescind your Neopolitan claim so you don't have to lie about no results anymore? Hell you even said this would happen before it did. This looks like a preplanned claim to get you out of what was decided by the thread.

@Mecha -- This. This is why you fucking lynch scummy players if their claim doesn't match what they are selling.

VOTE: karnos

If we, as a thread, continue to use traditional site meta I think scum will fuck with us.

[MathBlade]

What is up with replacements not reading/examining things. This is bad. This must stop.
A vote without reasons makes me suspect Dierfire might be being set up. You can post something resembling an argument right?

You could only suspect a setup if I am scum here Math....
Think for a minute. Why are people killed....
Seriously, doesn't take a genius to tell you that scum kill threats to them.

Also, I am in too many games to read everything I miss when I sub in. I can approach it three ways honestly. I can say I will read everything and then don't do it (I kind of did that already), I can not read it and just be proactive and interact with players to analyze them now (Which I do much better at I think), or replace out and someone else who likely won't read it or be active enough can take my place.

I like the players want more involvement, but seriously from my perspective its annoying to read hundreds of wall posts when I am in 10+ games.

I have been scum before. They do not always kill threats to them but they kill to potentially steer mislynches. To blanketly say scum kill threats to them without considering the fact scum kill to steer conversation or even a null kill if not suspected is bad.

Again is traditional site meta that scum only kill threats to them? Dear Lord :/ Why do you think this was scum killing a threat? And if you are right who would be scum with Dierfire?

[MathBlade]

I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.

You sure you aren't just full of shit? Did some reading overnight to try to find Neopolitan games and I found http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7751207

Do you want to make things easy and rescind your Neopolitan claim so you don't have to lie about no results anymore? Hell you even said this would happen before it did. This looks like a preplanned claim to get you out of what was decided by the thread.

@Mecha -- This. This is why you fucking lynch scummy players if their claim doesn't match what they are selling.

VOTE: karnos

If we, as a thread, continue to use traditional site meta I think scum will fuck with us.

You realize there easily can be a mafia roleblocker right?

You realize if they did it would be stupid as the thread was split about announcing if a slot was a PR or not so it would have been utterly stupid for scum to roleblock Karnos. Then again I am assuming scum are intelligent. This also assumes scum have a roleblocker which there is no evidence of.

Why do people assume Karnos is telling the truth?

*finds wall...Bangs head against*

[MathBlade]

I have been scum before. They do not always kill threats to them but they kill to potentially steer mislynches. To blanketly say scum kill threats to them without considering the fact scum kill to steer conversation or even a null kill if not suspected is bad.

Again is traditional site meta that scum only kill threats to them? Dear Lord :/ Why do you think this was scum killing a threat? And if you are right who would be scum with Dierfire?

I have tried using kills to steer mislynches by "framing" people as scum. It doesn't work, id say the 4/4 times I have done it the town didn't really NK analyze so they didn't see who I was trying to frame and the threats remained and they lynched me.

So no, it might have been past meta but speaking as a perosn who has played over 100 games in the past year. Kills rarely happen to frame players. Its 80% of the time to kill a player perceived to be a pr or a threat.

Well scum better be afraid because I do NK analysis. I do vote count analysis (differently than Titus). Did I not say Johnny was town? Did I not say that how that wagon formed by Masquerade and hammered by Masquerade was bad?

I don't care about your made up statistics. I care about what is happening now and I want Masquerade/Dierfire to react to this flip and that Karnos, shockingly (sarcasm), has no results. Once everyone has seen the flip that analysis can begin.

Pedit: Why? Why does your gut say that? What stands out to you from today if you aren't reading the fucking thread?

[MathBlade]

You realize if they did it would be stupid as the thread was split about announcing if a slot was a PR or not so it would have been utterly stupid for scum to roleblock Karnos. Then again I am assuming scum are intelligent. This also assumes scum have a roleblocker which there is no evidence of.

Why do people assume Karnos is telling the truth?

*finds wall...Bangs head against*

I feel like we are speaking two different languages cause 90% of this post was moon logic.

If you would RTFT (read the fucking thread) it wouldn't be moon logic. Some players said they should only out VT results others said all of it. Either way if Karnos is town (which I really really doubt) followed the latter it doesn't implicate anyone and only helps scum to make their play more believable and give scum a proper target to kill if Karnos targets town. So I assume (maybe incorrectly) that scum have some intelligence :/

[MathBlade]

I think Qubixes is scum with Kappy. I'm having huge issues concentrating and having a really hard time explaining but just look at his iso in his first 400 posts. I can't remember what pinged me when I first read Qubixes' iso maybe it will come to me later, maybe not.

VOTE: Qubixes

Math: What do you want me to say about the flips? I didn't believe Johnny was scum when I hammered him and I had Wingback as a strong townread. They both flipped town which means my reads there were accurate. I agree with Fire that scum will likely kill pr-suspects or threats, not for framing. Why would scum kill Karnos' biggest defender? Because they really want Karnos mislynched. At least, that's my humble opinion.

...I have to go to work. I need a break from stupidity.
1) NEVER EVER vote your town reads....EVER.
2) There were two days left. If you actually believed Johnny was town you would have been happy people moved off his wagon and considered other sources.
3) That isn't agreeing with Fire. Fire said they kill threats. I suggested steer conversation which would imply Karnos is town. If Karnos was scum Wingback is not a threat.

I want the truth. What is up with players trying to give others what they want to hear instead of the truth? The only reason I am not voting you right now after that contradictory pile of bullshit is that I want Karnos to feel some goddamn pressure so people will see if he is telling the truth or not.

[MathBlade]

Hint: I don't think he is.

[MathBlade]

Will be online later tonight work running late.

[MathBlade]

You sure you aren't just full of shit? Did some reading overnight to try to find Neopolitan games and I found viewtopic.php?p=7751207#p7751207

What exactly did you learn about this game from a game which had a scum neapolitan who was lynched D1?

Look at the specific post I quoted. There is a major paragraph there that freakin states site meta is you let someone off the damn hook for claiming Neopolitan because it is so damn rare because site meta.

This is a prime example of why "because we always do it is bad". Scum adjust and learn to those tactics. For example I am willing to bet we are going to start seeing a major shift of doomed as fuck scum on the site claim some kind of investigative and role blocked because of "site meta". Where I came from on DLP you had the person claim to see if the claim matched the specific style of scumminess they were called out for. If it didn't you lynched them. If they were town and didn't live up to what town wanted too bad. And the scary thing is most of the time on DLP they were right.

What I learned was if I haven't taught people that "site meta" is not the holy grail then I haven't done my job in making sure I help everyone see all the possibilities. If you have reasons why besides "the claim" you believe Karnos is town then you have those. Let's debate those. But D1 everyone moved onto a townread of mine and I went absolutely powerless to stop it because of some bullshit "site meta". Town does not do the things Karnos did day one. The main reason I am so pissed is people seem to be building this "OMG Town always does this list when Y happens" such a list spells absolute doom.

It is always analysis over information. Every fucking time. Iioa is almost always bad.

[MathBlade]

...I have to go to work. I need a break from stupidity.
1) NEVER EVER vote your town reads....EVER.
2) There were two days left. If you actually believed Johnny was town you would have been happy people moved off his wagon and considered other sources.
3) That isn't agreeing with Fire. Fire said they kill threats. I suggested steer conversation which would imply Karnos is town. If Karnos was scum Wingback is not a threat.

I want the truth. What is up with players trying to give others what they want to hear instead of the truth? The only reason I am not voting you right now after that contradictory pile of bullshit is that I want Karnos to feel some goddamn pressure so people will see if he is telling the truth or not.

1) Depends on how strong you town read someone.
2) It could be a compromise because some people are not extremely stubborn and willing to admit they could be wrong.
3) Masq said that they kill pr suspects and threats. Your last sentence doesn't make sense. Why do you keep using "steer conversation" IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE USE DIFFERENT WORDS CAUSE I DONT UNERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY

1) No. It doesn't. You always vote a null read or a scum read never a town one.
2) Town doesn't compromise with two days left. You poke push prod explain. Someone then pokes holes at what you say. If someone can convince me Karnos is town and actually has an argument that is not "the claim" then I will listen to said argument. Similarly if someone has an argument as to why someone is scum and they are a town read of mine I will pressure that. It is how Mafia works. Never compromise with scum.
3) Exactly that. On other sites, a kill can be one of three things
a) Perceived threat
B) Misdirection
C) a null kill
The latter two steer conversation away from the original suspicion. All three are valid strategies. In this case I find it likely that this is a hard thing to tell. I haven't had a chance to do NK analysis since I was at work til late but hopefully that will shed light on which of the three (or multiples) it is. To assume it is always choice A is idiotic.

[MathBlade]

Also, when I'm scum I kill the players I can't mislynch. Wingback would fall into that category for me.

Math, everyone plays this game differently. We can speculate why scum killed someone, but as long as we don't have a scumflip it's going to be REALLY hard to figure it out for sure.

Generally yes, it is technically speculation but there are generally hard facts to base that speculation off of.

Instead of just looking at who the person suspected, also look at who they town read. Especially in the later game. In the late game looking back on earlier kills a pattern can begin to emerge there in who could be that one vote that will never happen.

I could ramble on about the things you look at but there are a lot of factors. Like a CSI investigation.
On top of that there are the reactions when you do post it. Do you get buy in? Are you immediately labeled as crazy? The more memorable you are when you are NK'd/mislynched the more likely someone looks at your posts again and then sees what you were saying. It also depends on who believes you and who says you are crazy.

NK analysis is a very useful tool for finding scum and to brush it off like that is ridiculous and scummy.

[MathBlade]

I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.

Mathblade, if Karnos was scum he would have talked about his result with his buddies. There are more reasons for Karnos' action to fail, yet he can only come up with 2 of the most common roles that mess with investigation. If Karnos had talked to scumbuddies, I'm sure more option would have come up, like commuter or hider or roles like that. But he didn't mention them. It also makes a lot of sense to me that Karnos picked Persivul to investigate.
And that's why I still think Karnos is town.

Johnny wasn't a townread. I just didn't believe he was scum. If Johnny was an actual townread, I would have tried harder to stop the lynch. Ffs just read my goddamn posts from when I first voted him to where I finally hammered him.
I wanted a flip. I was selfish. I assumed we would have a frantic last hour where we had to hastily put a wagon together. I have meta but sadly it's an ongoing game so I can't explain rn. Hopefully soon.

I already said I think Wingback was killed because scum want Karnos misslynched.

That is not an argument as to why Karnos is town. He could have easily been coached before posting that. You are saying because he limited options it sounds authentic.....I need more walls to bang my head against. This morning did not help enough.

[MathBlade]

Can we literally stop talking about actions?
Like, read the content of his posts and tell me what his motivation is. I am not going to town or scum read someone on bs claims.

Someone with a brain. Please ISO Karnos and explain how town tries to mason hunt in thread. Thank you for at least keeping a goddamn open mind that you analyze over claims.

[MathBlade]

@Mecha: Wouldn't a scum Johnny flip not implicate me more?

No. If you were bussing, you'd have no reason to jump off the wagon right as the lynch became inevitable. It would waste the towncred gained from bussing.
Hopping on to push the wagon, then having misgivings when it was inevitable so you could get towncred for predicting it?
Also, I really like how you said this before Johnny flipped town. Smacks of foreknowledge; I know I'd never defend myself based on the flip of someone I don't know the alignment of.

How do you go from this –
To this –
In nine whopping posts?

My initial thought was "well that was really anti-town but there are obvious motives for town!Masq to do such a thing." Then I realized a lot of people didn't see the motives until Masq explained them, so it wasn't actually obvious, so I figured "let Masq explain/people push Masq into explaining, then I can analyze and see if the stated motives make sense." Because, well, Masq knows his motives better than I do.

I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.

I get a sense that I'm being setup, like scum have a blocker or something, so they can push for my lynch tomorrow when I don't get a result.

Wow karnos! You successfully predicted that scum had a blocker day 1! How unlikely!

If Karnos had talked to scumbuddies, I'm sure more option would have come up, like commuter or hider or roles like that.

"If karnos was scum he'd have played better because scum have daytalk."
Good lord this is such a WIFOMy defense I'm tempted to just say you're both scum and be done with it.

@karnos: Why did you investigate Persivul rather than Masquerade? Masq had claimed VT; you'd have been able to confirm him either as town or as scum by checking.

Why does everyone fucking like that Karnos claimed roleblocked? /sigh
As I explained earlier if Karnos is town (which I doubt) scum have 0 reason to block him. If they claim not VT then that person would be claiming a PR at that point which only helps scum. Especially because of the worshipped "almighty" "holy" site meta that is practically a religion. Atheism this way.

Someone actually asking a question to karnos!! Hooray!

[MathBlade]

I’m whelmed by karnos’s results.

@karnos

– please elaborate on why you chose Pers as your claimed target because re-reading you ISO I’m not seeing much to leads me to think that choice makes sense.

Reading back through end of Day I really don’t like either Math or Quib’s reaction to the hammer pre-flip. And wanted to highlight the following Wingback post –

@Mathblade, why would a hypothetical scum-Masquerade quickhammer Johnny if all the other lynch options (Dierfire, Mathblade) are town? You say Dierfire is a bad pick and I'm assuming you think you are town.

Masquerade's hammer makes the most sense if he's scum with one of Mathblade or Dierfire, and Johnny is town. I'm guessing he saw the case on Dierfire and qubixes agreeing and panicked at the possibility of a last minute switch. I don't buy for a second that there would be "apathy and no flip" when there are more than two days left to deadline. Also think if Masquerade was town, he'd at least give Johnny time to claim after hammer intent was stated. There was a four minute gap between his intent and hammer.

I need to thoroughly re-read Saru as well. In my notes I had him as town for his angry/genuine response to Persivul and his breakdown of Kappy's logic in Post 237. But his later posting has been a cause for concern.

That’s a pretty strong impression of the following as his parting thoughts.

@Firebringer

– why based on looking at Wing did you choose Dier for today’s vote?

A vote without reasons makes me suspect Dierfire might be being set up.

So who are your scum-reads again? Because I don’t recall you looking sideways at Chumba / Bulge / Firebringer yesterday when you were howling for karnos / Masq / my heads. But the only person who could be scum capitalizing on setting up Dier would be Firebringer and that doesn’t seem to fit your paradigm from Day 1. And you started the day voting Quib.

Well scum better be afraid because I do NK analysis. I do vote count analysis (differently than Titus). Did I not say Johnny was town? Did I not say that how that wagon formed by Masquerade and hammered by Masquerade was bad?

So despite Quib’s position of agreeing with you that the Johnny wagon was bad and Masq being the end-all-be-all of scum according to this you didn’t start the day voting him and instead voted Quib?

...Are you really pressuring me because I had the balls to ask questions and try to read the slot that interacted. Reads evolve. I was suspecting Quibixes for the end of day shift as evidenced by the posts at the end of the day. I thought more pressure needed to be applied while the conversation was going. Then with Karnos's results coming out I wanted to call attention to what I think is absolute bullshit. If I claimed Flying Spaghetti Monster with the ability to wrap all scum in a post restriction that every post they must end with I am scum and said "OMG I am so important please jailkeep/roleblock/protect me" and then it would be suspicious if no one had such a post restriction. Replace Flying Spaghetti Monster with "Neopolitan" and post restriction with results.

I do not have enough votes for all of my scum reads. Therefore I poke and push and prod. I attempt to read people.

[MathBlade]

My thoughts on karnos claim and results:

1. I doubt it's a fake claim, because it's so unusual. I think scum making something up would choose something seen more frequently. This is the first I've heard of neapolitan.

2. If he's genuinely neapolitan and scum, I think he would have wanted to give a result in order to get towncred. It's bad for scum to make conftowns, but they can be killed as created, and a no result could be claimed on a later night.

3. I make sense as a target. I started off good and some people are town reading me, but my game went downhill and some are scum reading me. Also, I'm good at defending when pressed. I.e. I'm kind of scummy, but won't be easy to lynch. That's a good target for an investigation.

1. Did you not read the post I gave you that is practically "Scum's guide to get out of lynched for newbies"?
2. Or he could have just wanted to not give any results either. See it is called WiFoM. That is not a reason to like it.
3. Did you really say you are a good target for investigation because you are a good player? Then why was such a good player such as yourself wagoned on D1? Don't get me wrong I am town reading you right now but I think ego is not a valid argument.

[MathBlade]

It's clear to me that I need to think seriously about rescinding one of my Town reads; I'm not so confident in my abilities as to think that all of the Mafia players are outside that group (that would be a team of karnos, MathBlade, and Kappy), although I'd be disappointed in myself if there are no Mafia players there.

As MechaGoomba and MagnaofIllusion are the stronger reads (and as they write a lot), they are low priority for reconsideration.
Persivul, Firebringer, and Saru are the most dated reads; they would be good places to start.
Masquerade and qubixes will be in the intermediate tier.

I still don't think that I want to lynch karnos today (in fact, having two VT flips should slightly improve his chances of being Town). His results (or lack thereof) are, to my mind, less important as a way of reading him than are his reasons for choosing targets (reasons for targeting Persivul in 994 are fine on their surface, I may eventually get around to evaluating the game state at the time to make sure) and, most importantly, the composition of the rest of the game as it is revealed over time (meaning the roles of the other players to flip).

...A town read isn't something you "rescind". It is not a gift. It is something you have or you don't. I am not begging to be a recipient of your town read. Writing a lot is not an indication of town else everyone would plainly see I am the towniest town to ever fucking town. No. Instead is how you play the game that should give people pause and reread. Furthermore assuming you aren't right about your reads? What changes?

Does Karnos become town? Kappy? Me? This looks like a big attempt to get out of jail free card of any accountability:

[MathBlade]

This is a prime example of why "because we always do it is bad". Scum adjust and learn to those tactics. For example I am willing to bet we are going to start seeing a major shift of doomed as fuck scum on the site claim some kind of investigative and role blocked because of "site meta". Where I came from on DLP you had the person claim to see if the claim matched the specific style of scumminess they were called out for. If it didn't you lynched them. If they were town and didn't live up to what town wanted too bad. And the scary thing is most of the time on DLP they were right.

So you're saying that at DLP there was a site meta, but scum did NOT adjust to that meta (i.e. they could have learned which claims matched which styles of scumminess and made those claims). Yet, here, you assume - against your prior experience - that scum DO adjust to site meta.

On the contrary. What I am saying is that at DLP analysis was more important than information. Scum did and would change meta constantly. Just there wasn't a "guideline" as to what was townie. You either were or weren't. I am saying on DLP you were forced to be townie regardless of your role claim.

[MathBlade]

As I explained earlier if Karnos is town (which I doubt) scum have 0 reason to block him.

As a claimed PR karnos could be doc protected, so scum are wary of targeting him for NK.

If left to investigate, he can create potential conftowns.

So, yes, scum have reason to block him. It's standard scum play - block an investigative until you hit a protective with the NK. Site meta if you will.

BTW, what did your old site think of someone who tunneled another player for two days?

Omg standard scum play *cries* Just stawp.

Depended on the situation about the tunnel. On DLP because I was breaking into a new site you have to tunnel to get any sort of credibility in the game or when you flip. Here, even if I don't get traction I can hopefully at least explain why *standard scum play* is so damn stupid. The question should be why would a team of your scum reads roleblock, if one exists?

[MathBlade]

NK analysis is a very useful tool for finding scum and to brush it off like that is ridiculous and scummy.

So if Karnos is scum, why are you still alive?

Because of site meta no one will listen to me so I am handicapped and have to X - 1 scum where X is the number of scum in the game.

[MathBlade]

Have to hunt*

@Mod

I need to go on V/LA for a week because I'm co-modding this game and coming week it's all me and it needs 2 extensive updates a day. If this is an issue, replace me.

@Mathblade: Read my posts again. We are disagreeing. I will not give you the satisfaction of changing my opinion because you give yourself brain damage from hitting your head into walls. All the points you keep bringing up about Karnos I have already refuted. Stop it. WE ARE NOT LYNCHING KARNOS.

:/ *dies a little inside*

Damn it. This is a repeat of day fucking one all over again.

You were responsible for the clusterfuck at the end of day one. You and Quibixes with that weird vote shit. I figure if we can't lynch obvious scum who isn't even giving goddamn reads I might as well start poking the beasts defending those reads, that started what was clearly a counter wagon, had a really bad hammer, and by their own admission can't keep their story straight.

Masquerade may be bussing Quibixes. When they were "pressuring" me they repeated the same damn point 10 (not an exact count) times. Here it looks like they are actually putting in a god damn effort. Furthermore you haven't refuted my points, you have dismissed them. How about instead of saying we are not lynching Karnos explain why someone who just OMGUS's me and doesn't post reads, mason hunts, PR hunts, votes town reads, is contradictory the shit out of day one doesn't lie.

Look at how little Masquerade and Quibixes interact D1. It is like they don't have to figure out each other.

Spiritual vote Masquerade

Spiritual vote Quibixes

^^This is where I would look besides Karnos but I want someone besides a scumread to say we aren't going there.

[MathBlade]

Mathblade, I want you to go over my posts and explain to me every single point I made in Karnos' defense how that was based on site meta.

Fine.

[MathBlade]

What is your stance on this? Do you believe Karnos as scum would have thought to do this the same way? Do you believe Karnos would have gotten paranoid feelings from Pers flipping scum if he knew in this game what alignment he has (if Karnos is scum he knows Pers' alignment, unless this is multiball or we have a SK, but the single kill points to singleball rn)

What does this have to do with Persivul alignment? You suggesting multiball of Pers flipping different team? Huh?

If Karnos is scum, he knows whether Pers is town or scum, no? Unless this is multiball or if there is a SK. So there was no reason for Karnos as scum to be paranoid of Persivul. You answered the question anyway:

I don't know if he would or wouldn't, all I could do is put myself in his shoes and say what I would do, and its likely not claim a PR unless my ass was really on the line. My first thoughts wouldn't be Neopolitian cause I have seen town get lynched with that claim and I don't think its even a good role. I can't say what Kranos would do though cause I don't know how he operates as far as play style. His posts seem simplistic in style and in tone. Maybe its a facade but he doesn't seem like some master planner, unless his hypothetical teammates are, even so its some weird lies.

Meh, I don't think mathblade is on the target with it. I can tell by logic used by math its forced and its just self serving the bias had before with a previous read.
I would like to hear more about it, but that's my thoughts so far without doing ISO of Kranos.

I don't take Karnos as a master planner either, I don't think Karnos would have come up with using his other game that just ended like that if he didn't feel real paranoia. But I also don't see him as a bad player. Only experience I have with him is a multiball where we were on opposing scumteams. My buddy was lynched D1, I killed Karnos' buddy N1, town lynched me D2, and then I think they lynched Karnos D4. So I wouldn't call him a bad player, but I don't think he'll be making very complex plans.

Don't take Karnos to be a master planner. Okay that is a read. However this point is fundamentally flawed as Karnos wouldn't have to be. Scum have daychat as was pointed out in the thread. So this point is a non point. Unless you are arguing that scum are ignoring daychat.

[MathBlade]

How about you make your own reads instead of depending on others?

This account isn't made to do work.
I have karnos at null because all thats literally happened with him so far is talk about actions (at least today i think).

Yeah no I misinterpreted your post I think. I like you're being sort of critical and I think you're town rn.
The reason I'm townreading Karnos, and defended him yesterday, is because everything he explained checked out.
Karnos was townreading Persivul, then Pers flipped scum in another game, at which point Karnos got paranoid and voted Pers (and was awkward with explaining that calling it a fake vote) and I checked that other game and the timing checks out. And you of all people should understand, because you have been paranoid about me in the past after you townread me when I was scum.
What is your stance on this? Do you believe Karnos as scum would have thought to do this the same way? Do you believe Karnos would have gotten paranoid feelings from Pers flipping scum if he knew in this game what alignment he has (if Karnos is scum he knows Pers' alignment, unless this is multiball or we have a SK, but the single kill points to singleball rn)

"Everything checks out" is site meta. The Persuvial day one bullshit was nothing more than scum lying. You are literally warping what Karnos did to fit town rather than what they actually did. Everything checks out is "I am too lazy to analyze so are the obviously lying" if not move on.

[MathBlade]

That is what you did there and it is lazy.

[MathBlade]

Actually, I want to

VOTE: Magna

If Wingback was a threat to anyone, it was Magna.

Off topic -- What happened to this huh? Ever gonna fucking explain? I can understand misplaced shade on me based on Wingback's post but where do you get Magna?

[MathBlade]

I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.

Mathblade, if Karnos was scum he would have talked about his result with his buddies. There are more reasons for Karnos' action to fail, yet he can only come up with 2 of the most common roles that mess with investigation. If Karnos had talked to scumbuddies, I'm sure more option would have come up, like commuter or hider or roles like that. But he didn't mention them. It also makes a lot of sense to me that Karnos picked Persivul to investigate.
And that's why I still think Karnos is town.

Johnny wasn't a townread. I just didn't believe he was scum. If Johnny was an actual townread, I would have tried harder to stop the lynch. Ffs just read my goddamn posts from when I first voted him to where I finally hammered him.
I wanted a flip. I was selfish. I assumed we would have a frantic last hour where we had to hastily put a wagon together. I have meta but sadly it's an ongoing game so I can't explain rn. Hopefully soon.

I already said I think Wingback was killed because scum want Karnos misslynched.

You contradict yourself here in your posts. One of your arguments is that Karnos is not a master planner. Yet here if he talked with his scum buddies that would make him able to talk with them and find out what is most probable. Your own argument defeats itself. It is literally nauseating to try to figure it out.

And with that I believe I am fucking done because everything else to me is site meta.

[MathBlade]

The purpose of claiming was a last fail safe. A last ditch effort to see if the scumminess seen matches the role claimed.For example if it was a lurker lynch or someone just dropping a vote on a person they would have to claim a cop or a tracker or something with an investigative role.

However if you were loud and tunnely and scum read and you didn't claim VT or BP then you got lynched.

The claim should support their play. That isn't site meta. That is analysis.

@Quibixes ---OMG dead horse. That has been beaten soooo many times. Moving off that Johnny wagon without supporting your own is bad. Misrep on the Karnos thing -- I said Masq defended Karnos. Masq was pressuring me but was really lazy d1. Now it seems like they care to put in actual effort. This feels like you are trying to go "noooo not bussing" These are not the droids you are looking for.

[MathBlade]

Actually, I want to

VOTE: Magna

If Wingback was a threat to anyone, it was Magna.

Off topic -- What happened to this huh? Ever gonna fucking explain? I can understand misplaced shade on me based on Wingback's post but where do you get Magna?

Why, thanks for asking! Wingbacks iso. Check it.

Or you can make words that form arguments instead of dropping a vote on someone for reasons I did not see in Wingback's ISO. This looks like an attempt to steer me onto my D1 Magna read instead of believing it.

[MathBlade]

The purpose of claiming was a last fail safe. A last ditch effort to see if the scumminess seen matches the role claimed.For example if it was a lurker lynch or someone just dropping a vote on a person they would have to claim a cop or a tracker or something with an investigative role.

Why didn't lurker scum adapt and start claiming an investigative role to avoid lynch?

However if you were loud and tunnely and scum read and you didn't claim VT or BP then you got lynched.

Why didn't loud tunnely scum adapt and start claiming VT or BP to avoid lynch?

Because it required a certain "hootspah" that could not be faked. You would have to know it to see it. DLP is deadly.

/sigh

But in terms of logic that is site meta but it is not because I can't explain without giving games no one will read due to their length. I can't even get people to read one damn post.

Fuck it. I am going to work. Clearing my head. Maybe a reread is in order because maybe I am a stubborn asshole.

[MathBlade]

The purpose of claiming was a last fail safe. A last ditch effort to see if the scumminess seen matches the role claimed.For example if it was a lurker lynch or someone just dropping a vote on a person they would have to claim a cop or a tracker or something with an investigative role.

Why didn't lurker scum adapt and start claiming an investigative role to avoid lynch?

However if you were loud and tunnely and scum read and you didn't claim VT or BP then you got lynched.

Why didn't loud tunnely scum adapt and start claiming VT or BP to avoid lynch?

About this.. Mathblade, what if a player has a general scummy playstyle?

They fix it.

[MathBlade]

See. That. That is what I wanted. Actual goddamn thought instead of just "Karnos is town" blanket statements.

I have to go to work but I am rereading the thread afterwards.

Do I think we are going to win if I do? Maybe. Hell it already got people to admit they are going to analyze Karnos instead of just going "Karnos is town because role blocked claim". So yeah sometimes calling people stupid and where they rely on site meta instead of analysis forces people to analyze everything. Just like how you are pointing things out to me in a logical manner and I adjust to mine. That is how Mafia works and we all come together and lynch scum.

[MathBlade]

@Quibixes ---OMG dead horse. That has been beaten soooo many times. Moving off that Johnny wagon without supporting your own is bad. Misrep on the Karnos thing -- I said Masq defended Karnos. Masq was pressuring me but was really lazy d1. Now it seems like they care to put in actual effort. This feels like you are trying to go "noooo not bussing" These are not the droids you are looking for.

I wasn't sure what "they" included there. I supported the Dierfire wagon, which Wingback just made a big case on. What's bad about that? And yeah I think your suggestion of bussing here is really weird, with basically no evidence to back it up. Other than that we interacted very little D1, which wasn't actually the case.

They = Masquerade

I call everyone "they" most of the time instead of he/she pronouns.

[MathBlade]

At work will be home in an hour or two. Then will begin reread as promised.

[MathBlade]

Still rereading it is a bit of a slog with all the walls to get through. Going to respond to recent posts and then get back to that tomorrow after work.

[MathBlade]

@Mecha. --

Actually, I want to

VOTE: Magna

If Wingback was a threat to anyone, it was Magna.

Off topic -- What happened to this huh? Ever gonna fucking explain? I can understand misplaced shade on me based on Wingback's post but where do you get Magna?

Why, thanks for asking! Wingbacks iso. Check it.

If I had to pick one post Mecha this would be it. I have reread Wingback's ISO more times than I can count trying to find where and why Masquerade votes Magna here. The biggest thing they left was Dierfire was scum. Yes, they provided cases but why would Masquerade say just check Wingback's ISO. Something seems fishy that they are lazy when they vote me but then never give an argument. They did the same thing with Magna. Yet they give reasons on Quibixes?

Something seems horribly off there. Why are they only making efforts on explaining reads about certain players?

For Quibixes it would be 175 -- It feels fake. Especially the words "now that I think about it". It invalidates everything they said in the prior part of the post as they were not thinking about it. The juxtaposition/word choice feels like some strategic move here. If Karnos is town (which is a really difficult pill to swallow) then I would go over their entire ISO again looking for things that give that same strategic vibe.

At the same time I don't see them as scum together. Masquerade v Quibixes (for the short time it was) felt wrong and I never understood why Masquerade moved their vote. Gut read would be you're probably right on the apathetic town read.

Furthermore I can see a Masquerade Magna team more so than Quibixes Magna. I think Magna is doing a delayed OMGUS here. Maybe Firebringer's slot in the mix. I really don't like how Firebringer is coasting here. Their recent post is they could vote Magna for voting their town read. Why aren't they posting something resembling an argument?

I still think Dierfire is sketchy but nowhere near as sketchy as Wingback's ISO makes them out to be. I also think Karnos is scum but you asked me not to mention Karnos.

My would lynch pool is {Magna, Masquerade, Firebringer, Quibixes, Titus/Kappy slot (for inactivity depending upon Titus's play this may change)}
Sketchy and needs lots of pokes but bigger fish to poke {Dierfire}
Town reads are {Mecha, Saru, Persivul}

My shut the fuck up about pile is {Karnos}

VOTE: MagnaOfIllusions

More on this in a bit.

[MathBlade]

For example I am willing to bet we are going to start seeing a major shift of doomed as fuck scum on the site claim some kind of investigative and role blocked because of "site meta".

Do you think doomed scum don’t claim Investigative roles looking to draw counter-claims already? Frankly this argument is pretty moronic when it is a very common practice.

1) No. It doesn't. You always vote a null read or a scum read never a town one.

Bad argument. Town can certainly be wrong about their Town reads. Happens all the damn time. Situationally voting a Town-read who is not Mod Confirmed in some way to prevent a No Lynch is Pro-Town play regardless of the result. Yet you are peddling that it should never be done.

...Are you really pressuring me because I had the balls to ask questions and try to read the slot that interacted. Reads evolve. I was suspecting Quibixes for the end of day shift as evidenced by the posts at the end of the day. I thought more pressure needed to be applied while the conversation was going. Then with Karnos's results coming out I wanted to call attention to what I think is absolute bullshit. If I claimed Flying Spaghetti Monster with the ability to wrap all scum in a post restriction that every post they must end with I am scum and said "OMG I am so important please jailkeep/roleblock/protect me" and then it would be suspicious if no one had such a post restriction. Replace Flying Spaghetti Monster with "Neopolitan" and post restriction with results.

I do not have enough votes for all of my scum reads. Therefore I poke and push and prod. I attempt to read people.

Of course reads evolve. Where did I say they didn’t? I asked you to express what your scum-reads were today. Instead of actually answering the question we get this mini rant about the FSM and other non-sensical points that doesn’t actually answer the question.

I’ve looked back on your posts today. You’ve had 36. The only ones that address Quib directly (aka in a scum-hunting manner) are 942, 954, 1069, and 1080. And a read over those posts doesn’t show someone digging into a potential scum read with probing questions. Those are light, cursory posts.

I encourage everyone to read Math’s Day 2 ISO and decide if you believe Math is “poking, pushing and prodding” Quib. I don’t see sign of scum-hunting there.

VOTE: Math

Why is someone being Jailed a part of this reasoning? Jailkeepers don’t prevent investigation roles from working on their targets. A Rolestopper? Sure that makes sense. But Jailkeeper doesn’t.

Huh. Apparently I was playing the role in a nonstandard way at the previous site I played on, I never realized before now that you can still investigate someone "in jail".

My job was killing me today, haven't had any time to post. I did try to read the thread throughout the day when I had breaks, but I didn't see much to comment on at first glance. MathBlade is still making a lot of noise, nothing new there.

Kappy's been MIA for the last two days, due for a prod I think?

I have a 2-year-old asking me questions about paw patrol every 5 minutes so I can't really focus enough to re-read thoroughly now, I'll try to make some more notable contribution later tonight.

1089 is what really rubs me the wrong way. Jail keepers are a roleblock + kill protect anyone inside them. Anyone outside them is fair game. Supposing a town Karnos world like I have been asked to do (sigh) then it is quite possible a town jail keeper who scum read Karnos could have done that as a test to see if Karnos made something up. In fact if Karnos is town this is what I would bank on having happened. I don't know why such a seemingly experienced player would assume that jail keeper is impossible.

[MathBlade]

*skips wall*

*sees reads list at the end*

But I wanna talk about him? He had a wagon on him.

Then let's talk about whoever "him" is. I am guessing you mean Magna?

[MathBlade]

The short version is Karnos is a claimed Neopolitan D1. They did lots of scummy shit that preclaim then everyone hopped off of the Karnos wagon and a lurker got lynched. They claimed no results today and have posted nothing useful. Yet this makes them town/not lynching today for almost everyone. It is so damn frustrating that people are picking information over the analysis of the slot. And I am trying not to reopen this can of worms. Karnos as much as I think they should be won't be lynched today.

Pedit: Karnos didn't claim jailed. They claimed no results.

[MathBlade]

And you're asking me why Karnos did something? How the fuck would I know?

[MathBlade]

Then we are back in I shut up about my Karnos read for the good of the thread.

I am going to bed as I have work in the morning.

[MathBlade]

Will be on late tonight and catch up then.

[MathBlade]

1089 is what really rubs me the wrong way. Jail keepers are a roleblock + kill protect anyone inside them. Anyone outside them is fair game. Supposing a town Karnos world like I have been asked to do (sigh) then it is quite possible a town jail keeper who scum read Karnos could have done that as a test to see if Karnos made something up. In fact if Karnos is town this is what I would bank on having happened. I don't know why such a seemingly experienced player would assume that jail keeper is impossible.

This is the second time you have ignored my posts Magna. Why are you so determined to paint me as scum yet you do not read my posts. When you do quote my posts you completely misrepresent them. You are experienced. I can tell. So why are you obviously lying about mechanics to Karnos?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Chumba
For not realizing I changed my vote.

There were two people that didn't realize your vote

before

that. Why change your vote now?

This is town.

You usually don't read upon replace in. What made you do it here?

[MathBlade]

Its the moon sisters!! (new nickname I thought up for both of you).
This is going to be fun.

*grabs the popcorn*

Happy Birthday!

Save me some popcorn and give some reads please

That helps things be even more fun.

Oh and you said you could vote. Why are you not voting/asking questions?

Birthday posts without scum hunting makes them less fun.

[MathBlade]

I actually read that as he was ok with a wagon happening.

What, are you saying that he didn't really think a wagon was happening, but just had the thought that,

hey, if a wagon

were

happening, I'd be OK with that...

?

If this semantics are the level of discourse, I see why mass sub out

Come in, look down your nose, and blame me for the replacements. Got it. If the Great and Powerful Titus thinks I'm a problem, I must be.

mod, please replace me.

Titus ignore him.

Also you didn't say hi and I am insulted.
Just so you know I am going to buddy you and your sister all game.

....I don't want people to buddy me. I want them to think and vote on their own. *glares harder*

[MathBlade]

Never mind, mod. I will give myself another 24 hours to cool down. I came home from an appointment that has me in shambles.

I'll be back later.

/me hugs Masquerade

I am sorry RL/appointment/whatever to call it scum claimed.

[MathBlade]

Pers slot, mecha, math?

Any objections to that scumteam?

...Yes because it is stupid.
Persivul obv town along with Mecha.

Are you just like throwing names on a board and seeing what sticks? Because this reeks of derp badly.

Good news Titus doesn't make sense so she is probably town. Blah...:/

[MathBlade]

Who said i wasn't going to think on my own?
I was just going to be overtly friendly to you two....highly suspicious indeed!

Ill provide reads later, lets just say. Not much has changed or developed:

You and Masquerade are strongest town, and I am really hoping that Titus is town, because I like town titus.

Oh friendly is dandy! I like friends who help me lynch scum. I like town Titus usually. I think this is her town game just not sure why her change in meta happened. Or why she is voting one of the most townie players in the game.

[MathBlade]

Dierfire is looking really strange to me. I've sort of been dismissing that as playstyle issues for a while, but at this point I have to look back at it.

Originally he was going into a lot of depth, with tons of links in every post, but now he's only doing that sort of thing in a few places. I think it's rather telling what those are; lengthy thing on Mizzy (who is now Masq) in 494, karnos in 558, justification of motion to karnos in 608, and then you end up having remarkably little of that sort of explanation for relatively important things.

In his 804/823 readwall, I find it rather strange that he states all of his townreads explicitly, with relatively little reasoning, but then Math and Johnny (who appear to be his two scumreads at the time) have lengthy complicated explanations that don't ever directly say "this person is scum and why".

Not only that but he puts me and Karnos as mafia together. I think you had a post somewhere explaining how dumb that is. His ongoing project feels more like who can I frame vs what they believe. They are also doing read walls and assigning a person as Mafia without having read them. Isn't that by definition null? How does that list make any sense.

Combined with my strong Saru town read I would suspect that Dierfire is mislynch hunting.

[MathBlade]

You say that every game sis :/ Are you going to answer my question to you or ignore it?

Wtf is up with the trend of ignoring/not responding my posts? It fucking sucks. If you aren't going to answer a question at least have the balls to acknowledge it was asked and that you aren't going to answer it.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Chumba
For not realizing I changed my vote.

There were two people that didn't realize your vote

before

that. Why change your vote now?

This is town.

You usually don't read upon replace in. What made you do it here?

Do you and Masq both suffer from being scum together?

[MathBlade]

Magna* fuck auto correct

[MathBlade]

That isn't spam. I fucking phone post and if I don't quote like that it is nigh on impossible to have context understood.

What sticks out to you in your reread so far?

[MathBlade]

Magna and Dierfire scum together with one of my willing to lynch as the third.
Not alarmed because Mecha and Persivul (well the slot now... )are town reads. I trust them.

[MathBlade]

Work again. Be on later.

@Masquerade -- ...Got some reasons with that shade or are you doing the same thing I mentioned earlier...again?

@Karnos -- It will be clear to everyone else that you have a scum role PM one of these days. There is no reason to egg me on like this if you are town. I am hunting for your likely partners in the interest of group cohesion. You seem to have no interest in doing so and are not even trying to figure out the game.

*repeat after me*
Math will not get sucked into the Karnos hole.
Math will not get sucked into the Karnos hole.
Math....

[MathBlade]

Will read Magna's post after work

[MathBlade]

@Karnos -- I am bigender/gender fluid. That means I am literally both genders. I respond to both so it is really no big deal.

@Masquerade -- It was in day one. If you don't think I am scum why am I your focus?
Normally I would say no. But I haven't heard an argument around Karnos as to why he is town without the claim. Therefore it is almost impossible for me to get out of that mindset. When I can Magna and Dierfire ping me as scumspects.
(As an aside sometimes I will sound female when I write posts other times male. It is just a thing. Assign whatever voice you want.)

[MathBlade]

@Magna -- It isn't buddying. It is how I find Titus town. If I follow her immediately she is probably scum. It is just a thing. Otherwise I would be betraying my meta read of her.
And about the jail keepers fine MS has different meta. But why did you not respond then.
If ignoring posts without acknowledging ignoring is a thing I don't like that about MS meta.

[MathBlade]

@MathBlade

Combined with my strong Saru town read I would suspect that Dierfire is mislynch hunting.

I went looking for your reasoning and I found only this:

Saru -- Strong Town lean -- Post 326 -- This post screams town to me. They read the argument presented, logically break it down, and reiterate their point in such a way that is clear concise and to the point. Side note: 330 made me laugh like hell. Thank you As the McDonald's theme song goes...ba ba ba ba ba I'm lovin' it.

Is that still the basis for your read?

---
Also, while reading I found this--my apologies for the delayed response.

It's clear to me that I need to think seriously about rescinding one of my Town reads; I'm not so confident in my abilities as to think that all of the Mafia players are outside that group (that would be a team of karnos, MathBlade, and Kappy), although I'd be disappointed in myself if there are no Mafia players there.

As MechaGoomba and MagnaofIllusion are the stronger reads (and as they write a lot), they are low priority for reconsideration.
Persivul, Firebringer, and Saru are the most dated reads; they would be good places to start.
Masquerade and qubixes will be in the intermediate tier.

I still don't think that I want to lynch karnos today (in fact, having two VT flips should slightly improve his chances of being Town). His results (or lack thereof) are, to my mind, less important as a way of reading him than are his reasons for choosing targets (reasons for targeting Persivul in 994 are fine on their surface, I may eventually get around to evaluating the game state at the time to make sure) and, most importantly, the composition of the rest of the game as it is revealed over time (meaning the roles of the other players to flip).

...A town read isn't something you "rescind". It is not a gift. It is something you have or you don't. I am not begging to be a recipient of your town read. Writing a lot is not an indication of town else everyone would plainly see I am the towniest town to ever fucking town. No. Instead is how you play the game that should give people pause and reread. Furthermore assuming you aren't right about your reads? What changes?

Does Karnos become town? Kappy? Me? This looks like a big attempt to get out of jail free card of any accountability:

I think that you're getting at the "each correct, some incorrect" idea here, which is where I was going as well.
If the state of the game provides me with some reason to think that I'm likely to be reading a Mafia player as Town, my first thought is to check my Town reads again to see whether they need updating. I agree that this wouldn't necessarily tell me whether any specific Mafia read is incorrect, but it couldn't hurt.

No. I was getting at calling you a wishy washy flake not standing up for anything definitively. You are still doing that as MechaGoomba said in 1199.

Furthermore my Saru read is based upon the sheer amount of effort and consistency they are putting into their posts. I have rarely ever seen anyone make walls that long except for one person I haven't played with in years. For their sheer brazenness they are a town read. It is like their townieness smacks me in the face.

[MathBlade]

Turns out I missed 585 several times. Probably scrolled through too fast, this time I took more care. I understand what Math is trying to say regarding Karnos and I'm starting to lean towards lynching him. I mean, the reason he gave for voting me was really strange. Why would anyone lie about something that's so easy to check? And looking back at his 1136 it's atrocious. He is simultaneously giving a reason for his votes not matching his reads (having me as townread because Math is a scumread but then voting me oh I'll just quote it

You aren't wrong about one thing, I did think Masq was likely town based on Mathblade being scum, and I do still think MathBlade is scum. But I try to be realistic, my scum reads aren't actually going to flip scum 100% of the time, and my scum reads aren't going anywhere without support from other town. I'm trying to avoid tunneling, and this particular comment from Masq really stuck out to me.

I disagree on your summary, this is about the opposite of confirmation bias. Confirmation bias would be ignoring anything that doesn't support my preexisting "MathBlade is scum" argument.

So he's now scumreading both Math and me while Math just had this push on me and not a word about that. What was it Karnos? Was Math bussing me there? Was I bussing Math yesterday? It just really looks like he isn't trying, I can't not agree with Math about this anymore.

Yeah, I'm going there.
VOTE: Karnos

More rereads to come soon. Kinda tired now, might try another one before bed but it's already pretty late so not likely.

I am soooo conflicted here. If Karnos is town then you and Titus gotta be scum together for reopening the Karnos question when everyone else in the thread shut it down. Yet if you are town and I already have a townread on Titus so it is more likely that I am right. Gah. I wish I knew if you were town and I somehow convinced you or scum and fucking with me.

Excuse me while I go over into a corner, scream Karnos is scum, have the wall do nothing in response then come back here. Hopefully removing my want to scream Karnos is scum.

[MathBlade]

Nope because it is a different hootspah...Stream of consciousness of you will. Your posts feel like they were edited before they were posted.

[MathBlade]

More scummy points for begging for town read too.

VOTE: Dierfire

[MathBlade]

Do not poke the Karnos train
*breathe*
Do not poke the Karnos train
*breathe*
Do not poke the Karnos train
*breathe*

[MathBlade]

Nope because it is a different hootspah...Stream of consciousness of you will. Your posts feel like they were edited before they were posted.

Phone post but this is a shitty and scummy discrediting attack. There is absolutely nothing Not Town about posting in a polished fashion.

Very very happy with my vote. More of the rest of you need to join me on this wagon on scum.

Yes there is when scum have daychat. When someone posts something it is whether it feels like it came from the same hand the same logic. As MechaGoomba pointed out Dierfire's reads are all over the place.

There is no consistency no "good" communication about them. He is a lot like Karnos. Not explaining their scum reads.

[MathBlade]

And FYI I am obvtown and stop protecting Dierfire by attacking me.

Tell me now what do YOU think about Dierfire? Who are your scum reads besides me?

[MathBlade]

And FYI I am obvtown and stop protecting Dierfire by attacking me.

LOL. The only obv thing you are is scum.

Your optometrist is on the phone. Apparently they are saying something about a vision problem you have with your reading ability. Apparently your words town and scum get reversed.

They call the problem receiving a scum PM. The suggested cure is self lynching. Please administer first aid.

[MathBlade]

The proper answer is "I didn't collaborate because I am town mother fucker" or some variety there of. You should be lynched now for scum claiming.

VOTE: Dierfire

With a vengeance.

[MathBlade]

....It is daychat. People can easily leave pointers when you aren't around! Again you do not deny it and instead only say "It's hard". You aren't saying it is impossible because you can't because you aren't town!

[MathBlade]

That logic seems off to me. Are you saying that a Mafia player would be unable to lie about this?

In that case, do I fix the problem by saying:

I'm writing my posts by myself, without collaboration, because I am Town.

I am saying it would have been a townie's first reaction. I know I am not collaborating with anyone on my posts. So when someone suggests it I go "talk to the hand because your bullshit in my ears gives me a headache".

Mafia can lie, yes. But it is much harder for them to do so, so they generally edge case. The fact you did not have a townie reaction makes you scum.

[MathBlade]

@Dierfire Don't ask me to fix your role PM. I am doing my part by voting you. Please contribute to the solution of removing scum from the thread aka you and Magna.

[MathBlade]

Then what are your reads right now considering what you will read?

[MathBlade]

Saru, your vote is bad.

Dierfire, the aliens must have jacked my criticism of your townread of me.

Masq/, karnos is a bad vote.

Quibxes, you too. Saru town.

Disagree. 5 sentences or less.

Dierfire doesn't townread you.
Why are you voting a slot that doesn't have a human behind it?

@Firebringer -- I have not played a game on Mafia universe. Because reasons.

[MathBlade]

@Titus - Who are good votes? Why?

[MathBlade]

To work to work. It is off to work I go.
Gotta write some lines of code and earn the dough.

Titus I love you, let's not betray that sister groove.
I have faith in you sis so please make yourself understood.

Then everyone can get a ready on the old slot of Kappy.
And you can make this all super snappy.

When you are town you usually figure things out.
I look forward to hopefully you and scum get in a bout.

Because scum will never win that fight.
I have faith you will turn around and read me right.

This is me trying to reach across the post aisle.
Doing everything I can to make you smile.

Please bring it sis and use more than 5 sentences,
Because there is no limit when you swing for the fences.

[MathBlade]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 5pm EDT until Tuesday morning for family and holiday activites.

Math is a great vote and needs more of them. That she’s can’t actually push people on facts and has reverted to just saying “Yo, youz Scumz” and “Imma baller Town” should reinforce this for people.

Mathblade and Mecha have priority for me rn. I'm still a bit bothered by how he responded when I said scum have daytalk, like he was testing the waters to see if anyone else wanted to wagon me for knowing that

Masq this is an absolute salient point.

Let me ask – what did you like about Mecha’s hammer reaction? Personally I think the way he shifted from “Understandable but unfortunate hammer” to “Lynch worthy bad hammer” in 9 posts was scum indicative. His response when I questioned him was basically “Um, I was waiting to see Masq motivations” which doesn’t hold up to me.

Is part of your Mecha read involved in him dropping his suspicion of you today?

So yesterday I read you as scum for trying to get a new wagon going when Johnny was wagoned, and when Johnny flipped town that kind of countered that theory.

So who do you think is in best position to call a wagon on Town bad? That’s classic scum 101 “Claw for Towncred on a Mislynch” play.

I've spent too long being unproductive.
VOTE: Dierfire

I think this is the launching point of Mecha attempting to generate a counter-wagon to his partner’s.

@Magna -- It isn't buddying. It is how I find Titus town. If I follow her immediately she is probably scum. It is just a thing. Otherwise I would be betraying my meta read of her.
And about the jail keepers fine MS has different meta. But why did you not respond then.
If ignoring posts without acknowledging ignoring is a thing I don't like that about MS meta.

Oh so buddying is yoru super sekrit read technique. Gotcha.

And the second part of this is scum to a tee. You called me out on lying, got smacked down hard with facts, and then go moving the goalposts attempting to keep your read by insinuating that my not responding is scummy.

Fact – I don’t make it a habit of answering most of my top scum-read’s questions to me. I don’t do busywork for scum.

You need rope BADLY …

More scummy points for begging for town read too.

VOTE: Dierfire

Scum seeing hope in a counter-wagon and grasping at it like a life preserver in the Ocean as their ship is going down.

First paragraph misrep. I have been staring my points in many different ways. Hell people get annoyed by it but I have never once used my majority read town status to say sheep me. I try to bring people aboard.

Second paragraph -- It is called town reads. And fighting for my belief. I don't know if I am right but I suspect derp I try to stop derp. It is my thing.

Third paragraph -- Fuck that. I am just trying to get reads and get people to do shit. If everyone thinks I am scum (which would be derp) I will take my lynch like a boss and try to point people in the right direction while going down swinging. It is called explaining myself and admitting mistakes. It is a thing. Too bad you are such so far in conf!bias you can't see it.

Well too bad because not interacting with players is scummy. And since IMHO you are scum you don't want to be lynched do you?

Yes I need rope to hang you with. Got any?

[MathBlade]

To work to work. It is off to work I go.
Gotta write some lines of code and earn the dough.

Titus I love you, let's not betray that sister groove.
I have faith in you sis so please make yourself understood.

Then everyone can get a ready on the old slot of Kappy.
And you can make this all super snappy.

When you are town you usually figure things out.
I look forward to hopefully you and scum get in a bout.

Because scum will never win that fight.
I have faith you will turn around and read me right.

This is me trying to reach across the post aisle.
Doing everything I can to make you smile.

Please bring it sis and use more than 5 sentences,
Because there is no limit when you swing for the fences.

I am not reading wall posts.

Shit I need 3 more sentences. Meh, no.

Are you under a post restriction or a laziness restriction?

[MathBlade]

Okay talk with me. I gave you concise thoughts you did not respond. What are your thoughts about my reads?

[MathBlade]

/me hugs Masquerade

The Karnos train based on everyone else's "site meta" won't go anywhere I believe he is scum I think you see the light but there are staunch people who just say no. Hence me buddy hunting to try to figure out how to be somewhat productive in the thread.

Assume Karnos is scum: Who do you think is scum with him?

[MathBlade]

And the other question is are you bussing now or just trying to get me to start up on Karnos again.

Ugh Going to Shadowrun will think about this afterwards.

[MathBlade]

Masquerade to answer your thoughts, I am conflicted about you.

My gut is screaming to me that you are town. Like ever since your apology post I see a radical shift. I like this shift and it feels town. But at the same time my logical side then screams "look at how neat their argument is". Look at how they are pushing exactly what you want now that Dierfire is getting ran up.

See the scary thing is I suggested Karnos you and potentially Dierfire on D1. Like I literally want to be wrong. But it is like a back and forth in my mind. After I hit submit I realized I did not accurately portray my thoughts and followed it up.

About the Mecha wagon I have a very strong suspicion they are town. It is very unlikely to be multiball. Still possible but unlikely.

If it were multiball I would have expected more dissent on D1. The voting pattern strongly suggests a single pattern team. Not only that but if a second team were to have existed they would have had to either A) shot at Wingback B) had no kill or C) Shot at a person who was doctored/jailkept

I guess maybe it is possible but that is way too many coincidences for me.

However 3 v 13 even with daychat seems underpowered for scum, especially if Karnos is town like majority seems to think.

[MathBlade]

@Titus --Be useful and setup spec this while I am driving home. Be home in an hour or two.

[MathBlade]

@Titus --
I think that I must dumb because I don't see what you and Masquerade hopped onto?
Most everyone has been suggesting three person scum teams and I find that most likely too. But why is Mecha scum for thinking that?

Their play to me has been so obvtown to me and this looks more like Masquerade reaching and lynch shopping more than Mecha scum.

Why did you feel the case was strong enough to vote and push even after 1259?
Can you explain your Mecha scum read?

I don't really see Mecha and Karnos as scum together and I scum read Karnos a lot.

[MathBlade]

@Titus -- You seem to be reaching only to insanity and really trying my patience. Sure you call Mecha scummy and think Mecha and Persivul are scum together but I just don't see it. I don't see Persivul scum making me drag my head out of my ass where I had lodged it. Of course Math always has it backwards and Titus always has it right.

I know one thing is for certain if I had to pick between someone who gives a damn right now to present an actual argument when asked and you I know who I'd pick.

[MathBlade]

@Masq I am not sure whether you mean I don't tell you my opinion or you mean that you don't want to lynch me. I can't tell if you are town genuinely frustrated or that you don't care because you are scum fucking with me.

If you want my opinion I will gladly give it.

[MathBlade]

Excuse me there are not enough walls for me to bang my head on here.

1) You can't read Dierfire so you do nothing with the slot. You don't poke them don't ask them questions or anything.
2) You then vote Karnos because you want "clarity on the slot".

I can understand being confused, hell I can understand wanting pressure on Karnos as that is the same thing I want too.
What I cannot for the life of me understand what you would do is when you have equal clarity around the slot you vote for the claimed Neopolitan instead of shoring up your Dierfire read. What I don't buy is that you in that position would vote a claimed Neopolitan who is a null read over Dierfire who is a null read.

In fact in 683 you said you didn't want to vote Karnos unless there was mod confirmable evidence they were scum or a CC. A CC hasn't been done and if anything the majority opinion is that Karnos is telling the truth.

Explain your reads. Now.

[MathBlade]

Math just obvtowned with that comment about lynching those who don't care.

Why unvote Mecha?

I don't want Magna. Don't think they are scum.

Person and Mecha = Great Lynches
Dierfire = Acceptable

Masq any reason you're townreading Dier? If you cannot read him and cannot trust others to, well...that's permanent nullstate. That doesn't work for me.

So much derp ugh.

Masq said they can't read Dierfire which means null read.
Person is anyone I am guessing you mean Persivul? Why?

Like Mecha and Persivul are obv townie to me. If I am wrong prove it. Don't just fucking spam.

[MathBlade]

I am seriously debating Titus/Masquerade/Dierfire here as the scum team.

Masquerade pumps the words I want to hear after Titus comes in the game and probably tells her to do it. Then they think Dierfire is an acceptable bus casualty.

[MathBlade]

Yeah Dierfire has Masquerade as a null read too as a part of their ongoing "reads project" and they never vote each other once. Like how the hell are you going to ever move the other person if you don't do anything with it?

VOTE: Dierfire

This needs more pokes.

[MathBlade]

Going to get my car looked at.

[MathBlade]

That brings be back to my D1 suspicion of Karnos/Masq/Dierfire and would explain why Masq wasn't checked. Or it could be Titus scum and that masquerade's claim was a gambit and Masq thought they could use bravado to get out of the shitty hammer.

[MathBlade]

Either way Masq and Dierfire seem content to not red each other at all.

[MathBlade]

Yeah sure this can be scum

VOTE: Dierfire

Why? Why do you think Dierfire can be scum?

[MathBlade]

Will get to this game at some point I hope. At least it seems not much has happened the last couple of days...

Well I skimmed most of his iso but what stood out is that he was scumreading Mizzy when she wasn't posting anymore but before I replaced her, and after I came in Dier hasn't been able to commit to a read on me anymore. Other than that he's mostly been picking at inactive players and today he scumreads Saru but votes the bigger wagon. In a nutshell.
I also still think Magna could be scum, but I should reread him again because I forget what he said about Dierfire.
So I checked and there is no read.

Magna, what's your read on Dierfire?

Okay then why did you have him as couldn't read before if you saw all the scummy reasons you are voting him for now?

[MathBlade]

Grrrr bad phone
@Quibixes
We playing the same game?
Titus replaced Kappy
Masquerade looks to be lynch shopping
Found a duo that refuses to read each other (Masq and Dierfire)
And potential scum teams are emerging
So yeah I think a lot has happened.

Unless you don't think this counts as a lot?

[MathBlade]

Why not?

[MathBlade]

When why not ever talk to Dierfire? Focus I understand. But never asking a single question except one you don't follow on and not taking a stand needs more explanation.

[MathBlade]

I think the scum are Dierfire, Karnos and Magna currently.
I don't do tiered readslists like ever.

I agree with 2 of those 3. Why are you reading Magna as scum again? I would look back at your ISO for reasons, but I honestly can't follow most of it. So if you could lay them out for me all at once, that'd be great.

I feel manipulated by him.
He hasn't posted any kind of read on Dierfire, but I did see a little bit of defending him in the form of attacking his accuser (Math)
He had a whole read progression on Karnos which was entirely dropped when Karnos claimed (Magna replaced in after the claim happened) and refuses to consider lynching him because we shouldn't lynch a uncc'ed pr. IIoA.
He pushed Johnny's lynch p hard, even while Dierfire came up as possible scum end of Day 1 and kept pushing Johnny and never gave any kind of opinion on Dierfire, as if he just wanted that misslynch to happen.

....I need more walls.

Magna cannot have an attacker in me and be townread without question.

I love it when scum flail.

Dierfire claim.

[MathBlade]

Grrrr bad phone
@Quibixes
We playing the same game?
Titus replaced Kappy
Masquerade looks to be lynch shopping
Found a duo that refuses to read each other (Masq and Dierfire)
And potential scum teams are emerging
So yeah I think a lot has happened.

Unless you don't think this counts as a lot?

Most of that happened (already) before I was gone. Dierfire did read mizzy (masq slot) in 494. It seems unlikely to me that he would go out of his way to cast shade on a teammate that is widely town read. Do you disagree? Which scum teams are you referring to?

qubixes -- Strong Town lean -- Post

175

-- I think qubixes is spot on with the Persuval v Sick discussion. [...]

For Quibixes it would be

175

-- It feels fake. [...]

Why the change of heart?

As I said earlier I was rereading the thread. During that reread I ended up feeling that post was fake when before I thought it was genuine. When Mecha asked me the question of specific posts without the voting bits I took a hard look at your ISOs and then realized I didn't like it when I did before.

I absolutely disagree. Throwing shade early when no one gives two shits and then not doing a damn thing about it is a scum tactic. Furthermore 494 isn't a read it is a collection of things that are good and bad without a final opinion either way. Even if it was that is 1000 posts ago.

I am referring to Masq/Dierfire/Titus or Masq/Dierfire/Karnos as scum teams.

[MathBlade]

@Saru -- I don't understand how you townread Magna.

Right now because Masquerade and Dierfire are so likely scum together that forces Magna to be town by PoE but his posts are super shitty. Like Terribad.

[MathBlade]

Magna

Here for starters.
Constantly misrepping my posts.
Attempting to classify a good read as a scummy action because I didn't follow along with their reads.
Then without having ever posted a read on Dierfire calls it a counter wagon of me gasping for life.

[MathBlade]

Magna

Constantly misrepping my posts.

I looked back at the misrep that you point to, and it seems Magna is referring to you calling Dierfire's 1218 a scum slip. I agree, that it was scummy, but not a definite scum slip. Magna seems to have a problem with you calling Dierfire outright scum for 1218, and that is what I'm assuming Magna is talking about when Magna says that you seem to have "reverted to just saying Yo, you scumz" to people you think are scummy. I can see why Magna might have a problem with that, but I just think it's just part of your aggressive play-style.

Attempting to classify a good read as a scummy action because I didn't follow along with their reads.

I do think that Magna has a point when he says that your read on Titus comes off as buddying. I don't think it's scummy buddying, but it is buddying nonetheless. Maybe post an actual read on Titus, besides meta? I'm not sure what you mean by "didn't follow along with their reads."

Then without having ever posted a read on Dierfire calls it a counter wagon of me gasping for life.

As I said to Masq(1309), he did post a read on Dierfire, calling him a null read. And he obviously scum reads you. That's why he calls it a "counter-wagon." Once again, I see where he is coming from. At the same time, I feel he's not understanding your aggressiveness. And so, once again, I feel this is TvT butting heads.

Responses in

bold.

I'm not really interested in the fight between you and Magna right now. My focus at the moment is on my scum reads. Depending on what they flip, I might revisit this whole thing between you two. But I'm confident it's just TvT.

@Saru -- Titus is genuinely puzzling me. I know you said not a meta read but with Titus being my RL sister and all it is really hard to do that. Titus just puzzles me to no end and loves to fuck with me if scum. It is one of the reasons it is very hard for me to ever town read her. If I had to with a gut read I guess she would be town since she is actually trying to read me and not instantly tunnelling me within two seconds of posting, or that she is actually caring to try to read me. She is null with a sliver of a town lean.

[MathBlade]

Hi Dwlee!

Pleasure to play with you again!

Happy 4th everyone if you celebrate!

[MathBlade]

I return.

I see that I'm at L-1 with hammer intent from Titus.
I claim VT.

I'm working on catching up now.

Lol. I highly doubt Dierfire is a VT. If they were a VT they'd say they were a VT rather than say "I claim VT."

@Dwlee99 - What do you think about Dierfire?

[MathBlade]

I look forward to your reads.

I gotta go to work but I will check during lunch if I can.

[MathBlade]

Prod dodge since MS was down Miss you guys Let's lynch some scum in celebration of the site being back up.

[MathBlade]

@Dwelee Dierfire is scum and is at L-1. There are four days left so let's take the time for you to get reads Dwlee

[MathBlade]

Alright. You made it sound like Dierfire flipping town would make it more likely that MathBlade flips scum, but apparently that is not the case?

What do you think Dierfire will flip?

Karnos provided no reason why it would be more likely I would be scum except his POV I am scum. Of course that is his POV I have been screaming Karnos is scum the entire game and he wants me discredited. Duh.

The main thing is he wants to save Dierfire. It is so obvious to me it is ridiculous.
Seriously it has to be Dierfire/Masquerade/Karnos.

I force Masquerade to take a stand on Dierfire so they vote them in a pinch.
Then Karnos comes in and says "ooooh look at this shiny. Don't you want it more?"

So blatantly bad it makes my skin crawl.

[MathBlade]

Can't risk it.

VOTE: Dierfire

I hope this is a bus.

This is an atrocious hammer.

The majority of people hadn't responded yet from the site outage. WTF.

I have to go to work now but Karnos tomorrow people. He is probably bussing but if not that was opportunistic as fuck.

[MathBlade]

The site was down. How the hell do you hold that against him?

[MathBlade]

Ugh I am soooo pissed glad I have a 9 am meeting so I don't have to think about this.

[MathBlade]

Wow didn't realize today had started will check late tonight at a friend's place.

[MathBlade]

Wtf is this nonsense?

Karnos and company remembers that oh yeah this is either the lynch before lylo or lylo and decides to vote me start of the day for what is clearly fabricated bullshit. Furthermore no one even bothers to look at the goddamn night kill.

Let's assume for a second that Karnos is town (which is fucking stupid) then why are they still alive? They did not claim roleblocked so that eliminates the jailkeeper. I am assuming no SK/second party since no two NKs since the start of the game. This means that A scum team without Karnos in it would be not killing Karnos. Why would such a team be interested in this? And look who he "confirms" Masquerade. After I FoS Masquerade hard yesterday.

The thread used "site meta" has decided repeatedly to not lynch Karnos. Well guess what. Everyone in the thread said Karnos would not be alive at fucking LyLo well this is where we are headed if you let scum!Karnos lead this day and lynch me.

You know what the sad thing is? The thread will probably say "No...Don't vote for fucking Karnos...They are UNCC'D we will get them before lylo. Well my math says if there are three scum and if we fucking mislynch that is it. We are then in lylo. Right now we have 9 alive with 3 scum most likely. Lynch me and an NK you have 7 alive with likely 3 scum. Welcome to Lylo."

Nearly every goddamn Mafiascum website says lynch the goddamn cop at the lynch before lylo because more often than not if they live that long they are fucking with you.

So now I am forced to fucking partner hunt AGAIN with the fucking dilemma of whether Karnos under pressure decided to "confirm town their buddy" and it would be Karnos Masquerade and Magna or if Masquerade is actually town and Karnos is trying to do that for town cred.

The one thing that annoys the shit out of me is why Quibixes was shot instead of Karnos or someone who was leading anything.

Whoever is voting me or Mecha better have a goddamn explanation because I would bet my life Mecha is town.

Now excuse me while I ISO Quibixes and try to figure out wtf is going on here. When y'all want to scum hunt let me know.

VOTE: Karnos

I know everyone will probably say fuck off we aren't lynching Karnos but right now that is the only scumread I feel confident enough voting right now.

[MathBlade]

Karnos provided no reason why it would be more likely I would be scum except his POV I am scum. Of course that is his POV I have been screaming Karnos is scum the entire game and he wants me discredited. Duh.

The main thing is he wants to save Dierfire. It is so obvious to me it is ridiculous.
Seriously it has to be Dierfire/Masquerade/Karnos.

I force Masquerade to take a stand on Dierfire so they vote them in a pinch.
Then Karnos comes in and says "ooooh look at this shiny. Don't you want it more?"

So blatantly bad it makes my skin crawl.

I agree it looks like a good possibility from the actions so far in the game. I feel like scum would try to be a little less blatant about it though, so I'd think at least one of the names is wrong (and yes I thought Saru could be the less obvious part of the team). Maybe I'm wrong though. In that case scum kind of panicked.

@Karnos: What will your hammer prove?

This. This is why I think Quibixes was killed. Because site meta knew we should be looking at Karnos today. Karnos was openly suspected by Quibixes and me, but because I was pushing the wagon, I think the scum team believes I am a viable mislynch instead of Quibixes.

[MathBlade]

Math, your reads are utter shit. A Jailkeeper is not eliminated. If the Jailkeeper townread Karnos, then jailing him is dumb. Karnos doesn't clear anyone as a scum Neopolitan or fakeclaimer. Magna didn't object so Magna is determined to be a VT or scum. Your rigid read is picking you up scumreads left and right. It's likely inaccurate as well.

You need to step back and suppose you are wrong for a second. For the sake of town and the game. You screamed Dunn/Infinity in Gunslingers, and you were wrong there. Just step back darling.

Context. Eliminates them from visiting Karnos, should one exist.

The assumption was Karnos didn't get results because they were visited by a scum roleblocker.
However assuming it was a scum roleblocker on D1 why not repeat or kill Karnos?

Like wtf is going on here. I don't give two shits about if I am scumread because people think I have a stick up my ass about my reads. What I do give two shits about is when it is so blatantly obvious that it is a frame up and you instead are trying to tell me what to do to have likely scum not "scumread" me.

My head hurts trying to understand Titusese

[MathBlade]

Lovingly Titus that would be you. You do not just pull a "oh look here is a prior game you were wrong so you much be wrong here" card. Mecha already explained your reads are shit. So until you address Mecha's concerns about your reads you have no standing to call my reads shit especially when you are attempting to change mine instead of pushing and interacting with yours.

Karnos Titus perhaps?

[MathBlade]

Can't risk it.

VOTE: Dierfire

I hope this is a bus.

This is an atrocious hammer.

The majority of people hadn't responded yet from the site outage. WTF.

I have to go to work now but Karnos tomorrow people. He is probably bussing but if not that was opportunistic as fuck.

Masquerade if you mean this post it is called being a decent player. People hadn't come on since the outage. This hammer was scummy as fuck. You give people a chance to fucking see things and play. The fact this hammer didn't allow that makes it terribad.

[MathBlade]

Responding in line

The fact that Titus suspects Mecha but not Math for pretty much doing the same thing is scummy, to say the least.

Agreed but I think it is Titus buddying me because we are always at each other's throats and we both want a game where we are not screaming at each other.

Last time I checked, both Mecha and Math have been very similar in pushing certain targets hard as fuck, usually the same target(i.e. Karnos, Dierfire, etc.), and have just generally shown a pattern of buddying. I personally don't think that both of them can be scum in this scenario. The buddying is way too obvious and I feel, at this point in the game, scum would want to start distancing themselves from one another. I feel like Mecha has a bigger chance to be the town in this scenario because his reasoning for voting who he has, hasn't been all that weak. It seems like he puts some thought into it. Math, OTOH, has been pretty abysmal when it comes to giving legit reasons for voting people. Her reasons for voting Dierfire and suspecting him were weak as fuck(as Magna has pointed out), and I feel like a fucking idiot for buying into them. She just seems to yell out "SCUM!" onto people when they put a sliver of suspicion onto her, or try to counter her.

Your memory sucks. I have been explaining it pretty damn well and you fucking quote me on a lot of the posts. It looks like more you are trying to pick between me and Mecha and making up reasons rather than Mecha and I are both obv town. There is a reason I have been protecting Mecha so long. THINK!

The fact that Math said in 1308 that "Magna [is] town by PoE but his posts are super shitty" just looks like an attempt to plant seeds of doubt when Dierfire flips town. Her reaction to Karnos hammering Dierfire was even worse, as Magna pointed out in 1384. It seemed like an attempt to set the stage for a D3 Karnos mislynch when Dierfire flips town. Her crazy push onto Karnos, even after his claim, is a bit strange, and was really the only reason I was feeling she could be town, as scum pushing that hard would look suspect. Too risky. But, honestly, I feel like maybe that push wasn't such a big deal after all. She might have tried hard to plant the seed of doubt in town's mind about Karnos, but when she saw it was hard to do so, chose Dierfire as a target. She seems to be the kind of person willing to take that risk.

Just no. I have been scum reading Karnos since day fucking one. Yes it has been hard to explain but for the love of all that is holy I have had to partner hunt all damn game. It is either great or shitty depending upon how you do it. Since people refuse to even consider Karnos scum it is like I am on my own banging my head against the damn wall. It just pisses me off. Magna's posts are shitty. Karnos's hammer was bad. These things are objective facts.

This is where my scum read of Titus comes in. The fact that Titus doesn't really think Math is scum is annoying. She says "maybe Math", which feels like skirting the wagon of her scum buddy pretty damn hard. What exactly is the difference between Mecha and Math here? I don't really see what makes Mecha more scummier than Math in Titus' eyes. I feel like Titus might give a shitty meta excuse, but I wouldn't buy that for my life. Until Titus specifically points out posts from Mecha that seem like absolute scum, I'm not buying it. Actually, I even point out why one of her big reasons for suspecting Mecha is terrible in my read of her in 1301.

I agree Titus is probably scum buddying up to me with Karnos.

Also, as a side note, Titus felt that Dierfire was an "acceptable"(1275) lynch, but never really explains why. She might point to 1163, but that is absolute garbage in terms of reasoning.

Also, as another side note, for most of the start when Titus replaces in, she sees Math as scum but refuses to vote her(1175) for no particular reason and then just says that Math "just obvtowned with that comment about lynching those who don't care" which is a terrible way of putting it. Math actually says that she'd more willing to lynch those who didn't present an actual argument versus those who do(1269) which isn't "obvious town" at all. It just sounds like Math was advocating for a policy lynch, more than anything else. Which, if you look at it, is scummy given that Math had actual scum reads that she was pushing, so to all of sudden say that policy lynching would be ok with her, is scummy. Not obvious town. This seemed like a subtle way for Titus to get rid of her fake scum read of Math.

At this point, it looks like Math and Titus are good choices for a scum team. Math, more so. If Math flips scum, then Titus is definitely my next target. As for a third partner, I'm not entirely sure. I'm looking at Dwlee only because I read the slot as scummy, and not much more. That might change based on flips and whatnot.

VOTE: MathBlade

I would be okay with a Titus lynch but I think Karnos is better because then you can get rid of scum. Scum that no one wants to lynch because of a fake made up bullshit claim.

This entire day feels like people looking for a reason to call me scum rather than actually believing I am scum. These posts look so damn reachy.

[MathBlade]

Now, if I told you that Karnos said your reads were shit, and you had to convince Karnos about your reads, you'd laugh at me. I am not convincing mecha they are scum. If you cannot get my reads, I will talk to you.

What I need from you is to consider the possibility of Karnos town, even if you immediately say you disagree with it. Suspend disbelief please.

No. I have been "considering the possibility" all fucking game. At this point "considering the possibility" means we conf!town Karnos in practicality. There is a reason you always lynch the cop before lylo is the site meta.

The entire thread said and I paraphrase "We will evaluate Karnos later." That later is here. If you don't then you have to admit that you are a hypocritical bastard proclaiming site meta when not lynching a day one UnCC'd and then not lynching Karnos now. If you are going to use site meta use it properly or we will be tilling the fields of a game gone wrong, thinking "Man I wish I had a fruitful harvest but all I have are these dead crops"

Let's not be that town. But again I anticipate being overruled

again

by derp and being told "Karnos is a bad lynch today."

[MathBlade]

Your memory sucks. I have been explaining it pretty damn well and you fucking quote me on a lot of the posts. It looks like more you are trying to pick between me and Mecha and making up reasons rather than Mecha and I are both obv town. There is a reason I have been protecting Mecha so long. THINK!

My memory sucks? Really? So, please, refresh it, why don't you? Point me to your posts where you scum read Dierfire for legitimate reasons. Most of what I see is you just nit-picking Dierfire for the dumbest things(1219). Your 1279 is equally terrible. If I understand it correctly, you seemed to hate that Dierfire was reading Masq as null but never interacted with him enough, and so that's scummy because he didn't put effort into moving Masq into a town or scum read? Let me know if that's it, because if it is, I don't see what the scummy thing really is. Dierfire had other people he felt like voting/scum read, and so I'm not sure why he'd choose to comment on Masq since he claims that he was still reading up on him. It only makes sense to actively push your scum reads while you're still reading up on your null reads.

Just no. I have been scum reading Karnos since day fucking one. Yes it has been hard to explain but for the love of all that is holy I have had to partner hunt all damn game. It is either great or shitty depending upon how you do it. Since people refuse to even consider Karnos scum it is like I am on my own banging my head against the damn wall. It just pisses me off. Magna's posts are shitty. Karnos's hammer was bad. These things are objective facts.

Stop. I've already pointed out how Magna's posts aren't shitty. You've yet to counter me on that. Calling things "objective facts" is only making me scum read you more. You're coming off as desperate.

I agree Titus is probably scum buddying up to me with Karnos.

Titus is buddying up to you because she's scum but also because you both want a game where you guys aren't screaming at each other? What. The. Fuck. How do I even respond to this? I don't give a flying fuck about the history between you and Titus when it comes to how you guys interact with each other, nor am I going to take the time to check. Please stop using that as a reason for anything.

I would be okay with a Titus lynch but I think Karnos is better because then you can get rid of scum. Scum that no one wants to lynch because of a fake made up bullshit claim.

This entire day feels like people looking for a reason to call me scum rather than actually believing I am scum. These posts look so damn reachy.

You mean like how you've been looking for reasons to call Karnos scum? You've reached on Karnos pretty fucking hard. Don't act like you're the victim here.

Responses in

bold.

I pick apart people's posts it is what I do. What you call "dumb" I call scummy. It is a difference in how we read people. I believed Dierfire and Masquerade were in collusion because neither ever read the other. In my experience that is usually a pretty big scum tell so I pushed them together. With the flip I know now I was mistaken. Sure you can look back with 20/20 hindsight and know Dierfire is town now. But that is all it is hindsight. He had reads on everyone else. At this point in the game "null" and yesterday "null" is bull.

No. You have been explaining how you want to believe Magna's posts aren't a steaming pile of dog poo. That doesn't mean you are correct and your logic is flawed.

Too bad. When you know a player you use everything you can to read them. The fact Titus is trying now is either buddying scum trying to push me to a mislynch or town.

I seriously am the victim. Look at this goddamn flash wagon. Scum want me fucking gone so Karnos can coast.

[MathBlade]

There's no reason for scum Karnos to confirm me. Maybe if we were scum together but I know my role pm and I'm not scum so Karnos and I aren;t scum together so Karnos is town.
Math could have jumped on Karnos yesterday, I'm not doing it today. Too late. Too obvious. Scum.

Fuck this logic. I have been at the top of my goddamn lungs asking for Karnos's head on a fucking platter and served raw. Gawd this logic is terribad. Like this looks again like a reach.

Seriously the thread was town reading me at the end of the day and while I am at work I get pushed to L-1? Have we already demonstrated two shitty hammers this game and set up for a third. This should scream something is wrong!

[MathBlade]

Prepare yourselves people...I am about to post a colored vote count for for y'all and then everyone can see where the chips lie.

I will even do two shiny lists.
1) For the people who read me correctly
And I will even include a two for people who may need to go find their Wheaties to fix their reads.

[MathBlade]

Nice shiny color coded GreyICE vote counts for everyone to use to help find/explain their scum teams or in case of those of you scumreading me to course correct.

Spoiler: Math is town AKA not derping

Official Vote Count

Kappy

(3): Sickofit1138, Mizzytastic, Chumba

Sickofit1138

(1): qubixes

Chumba

(1): Kappy

Mizzytastic

(1): Persivul

Not Voting

(7):

ShadyHood

, karnos, Snork,

Dierfire

, MechaGoomba,

MathBlade

, Saru

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:51)

Official Vote Count

Persivul

(2): Kappy, Sickofit1138

Sickofit1138

(2): qubixes, Persivul

Chumba

(1): MechaGoomba

karnos

(1): Mizzytastic

Kappy

(1): Chumba

Not Voting

(6):

ShadyHood

, karnos, Snork,

Dierfire

,

MathBlade

, Saru

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:07)

Official Vote Count

Persivul

(4): Sickofit1138,

ShadyHood

, Saru, karnos

Kappy

(4): Chumba, Persivul,

Dierfire

, MechaGoomba

Sickofit1138

(3): Snork,

MathBlade

, Kappy

karnos

(2): Mizzytastic, qubixes

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:49)

Chumba is being replaced

Sorry for the lack of vote counts, work has been kicking my ass. Hopefully fixed.

Official Vote Count

Sickofit1138

(3): Snork,

MathBlade

, The Bulge

karnos

(3): Mizzytastic, qubixes, MechaGoomba

Persivul

(2): Sickofit1138,

JohnnyFarrar

Kappy

(2):

Dierfire

, Saru

The Bulge

(1): Persivul

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Not Voting

(1): Kappy

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:51)

Official Vote Count

Wingback

(3): Snork,

MathBlade

, The Bulge

karnos

(3): Mizzytastic, qubixes, MechaGoomba

Persivul

(2): Wingback,

JohnnyFarrar

Kappy

(2):

Dierfire

, Saru

The Bulge

(1): Persivul

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Not Voting

(1): Kappy

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:15)

No prods required

Official Vote Count

karnos

(5): Mizzytastic, qubixes, MechaGoomba, Persivul, Kappy

Wingback

(3): Snork,

MathBlade

, The Bulge

Persivul

(2): Wingback,

JohnnyFarrar

Kappy

(2):

Dierfire

, Saru

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:27)

Official Vote Count

karnos

(4): qubixes, MechaGoomba, Persivul, Kappy

Wingback

(3):

MathBlade

,

MathBlade

, The Bulge

Kappy

(2):

Dierfire

, Saru

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Persivul

(1): Wingback

Not Voting

(2): Masquerade,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:11)

Official Vote Count

karnos

(5): qubixes, MechaGoomba, Persivul, Kappy,

Dierfire

Wingback

(3):

MathBlade

, MagnaofIllusion, The Bulge

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

MathBlade

(1): Wingback

Kappy

(1): Saru

Not Voting

(2): Masquerade,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:48)

Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(4): Persivul, MechaGoomba, Wingback, Masquerade

Wingback

(2):

MathBlade

, The Bulge

MathBlade

(1): karnos

karnos

(1): qubixes

Kappy

(1): Saru

Not Voting

(4):

Dierfire

, MagnaofIllusion, Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:10)

TheBulge has been prodded.

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(3): karnos, MechaGoomba, Masquerade

JohnnyFarrar

(3): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion

Kappy

(2): Saru,

Dierfire

Wingback

(1): The Bulge

karnos

(1):

MathBlade

Not Voting

(3): qubixes, Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-24 16:02:39)

The Bulge is being replaced. In light of the high number of replacements, I'm arbitrarily extending the deadline two days. I hope no players or factions feel hurt by this, I feel it's simply fair to give everyone time to catch up and discuss. I really didn't plan to have seven replacements on day 1.

Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(5): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion, qubixes, MechaGoomba

MathBlade

(2): karnos, Masquerade

Kappy

(2): Saru,

Dierfire

Wingback

(1): The Bulge

Dierfire

(1):

MathBlade

Not Voting

(2): Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-24 16:01:27)

I'm still looking for a replacement for Bulge.

Kappy is on VLA

Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(5): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion, qubixes, MechaGoomba

MathBlade

(2): karnos, Masquerade

Kappy

(2): Saru,

Dierfire

MagnaofIllusion

(1):

MathBlade

Wingback

(1): The Bulge

Not Voting

(2): Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-26 15:59:55)

Wingback and Saru have been prodded

Kappy is on VLA

Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(7): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion, MechaGoomba, Saru, karnos, Masquerade

MagnaofIllusion

(1):

MathBlade

Dierfire

(1): qubixes

Kappy

(1):

Dierfire

Not Voting

(2): Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

JohnnyFarrar

has been lynched! He was...

Townie.

Night action submission deadline: (expired on 2016-06-26 14:00:00). At that time all night actions will be locked and resolved based on last targets received (see rules in post #1 for details if you wish more)

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(3): karnos, Persivul, MagnaofIllusion

MagnaofIllusion

(2): Masquerade, MechaGoomba

qubixes

(1): Saru

Dierfire

(1): Firebringer

karnos

(1):

MathBlade

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(2):

Dierfire

, Kappy

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 15:59:52)

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(4): Persivul, MagnaofIllusion,

Dierfire

, karnos

Dierfire

(2): Firebringer, MechaGoomba

qubixes

(1): Saru

MagnaofIllusion

(1):

MathBlade

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(2): Masquerade, Kappy

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 16:00:09)

Searching for a replacement for Persivul

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(4): Persivul, MagnaofIllusion,

Dierfire

, karnos

Dierfire

(3): Firebringer, MechaGoomba,

MathBlade

qubixes

(1): Saru

Persivul

(1): Titus

karnos

(1): Masquerade

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 15:59:41)

Official Vote Count

Dierfire

(5): Firebringer, MechaGoomba,

MathBlade

, Masquerade, Saru

MathBlade

(4): Dwlee99, MagnaofIllusion,

Dierfire

, karnos

MechaGoomba

(1): Titus

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 16:00:20)

Official Vote Count

Dierfire

(6): Firebringer, MechaGoomba,

MathBlade

, Masquerade, Saru, karnos

MathBlade

(2): MagnaofIllusion,

Dierfire

Masquerade

(1): Dwlee99

MechaGoomba

(1): Titus

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Dierfire

was lynched. He was a

Townie

.

If you have not yet posted after the downtime please confirm by PM that you are on site. Night deadline will be extended until I have confirmation that all players have returned after the outage.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-09 10:33:00)

Spoiler: Math is a scum read aka derp fest

Official Vote Count

Kappy

(3): Sickofit1138, Mizzytastic, Chumba

Sickofit1138

(1): qubixes

Chumba

(1): Kappy

Mizzytastic

(1): Persivul

Not Voting

(7):

ShadyHood

, karnos, Snork,

Dierfire

, MechaGoomba,

MathBlade

, Saru

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:51)

Official Vote Count

Persivul

(2): Kappy, Sickofit1138

Sickofit1138

(2): qubixes, Persivul

Chumba

(1): MechaGoomba

karnos

(1): Mizzytastic

Kappy

(1): Chumba

Not Voting

(6):

ShadyHood

, karnos, Snork,

Dierfire

,

MathBlade

, Saru

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:07)

Official Vote Count

Persivul

(4): Sickofit1138,

ShadyHood

, Saru, karnos

Kappy

(4): Chumba, Persivul,

Dierfire

, MechaGoomba

Sickofit1138

(3): Snork,

MathBlade

, Kappy

karnos

(2): Mizzytastic, qubixes

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:49)

Chumba is being replaced

Sorry for the lack of vote counts, work has been kicking my ass. Hopefully fixed.

Official Vote Count

Sickofit1138

(3): Snork,

MathBlade

, The Bulge

karnos

(3): Mizzytastic, qubixes, MechaGoomba

Persivul

(2): Sickofit1138,

JohnnyFarrar

Kappy

(2):

Dierfire

, Saru

The Bulge

(1): Persivul

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Not Voting

(1): Kappy

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:51)

Official Vote Count

Wingback

(3): Snork,

MathBlade

, The Bulge

karnos

(3): Mizzytastic, qubixes, MechaGoomba

Persivul

(2): Wingback,

JohnnyFarrar

Kappy

(2):

Dierfire

, Saru

The Bulge

(1): Persivul

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Not Voting

(1): Kappy

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:15)

No prods required

Official Vote Count

karnos

(5): Mizzytastic, qubixes, MechaGoomba, Persivul, Kappy

Wingback

(3): Snork,

MathBlade

, The Bulge

Persivul

(2): Wingback,

JohnnyFarrar

Kappy

(2):

Dierfire

, Saru

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:27)

Official Vote Count

karnos

(4): qubixes, MechaGoomba, Persivul, Kappy

Wingback

(3):

MathBlade

,

MathBlade

, The Bulge

Kappy

(2):

Dierfire

, Saru

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Persivul

(1): Wingback

Not Voting

(2): Masquerade,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:11)

Official Vote Count

karnos

(5): qubixes, MechaGoomba, Persivul, Kappy,

Dierfire

Wingback

(3):

MathBlade

, MagnaofIllusion, The Bulge

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

MathBlade

(1): Wingback

Kappy

(1): Saru

Not Voting

(2): Masquerade,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:48)

Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(4): Persivul, MechaGoomba, Wingback, Masquerade

Wingback

(2):

MathBlade

, The Bulge

MathBlade

(1): karnos

karnos

(1): qubixes

Kappy

(1): Saru

Not Voting

(4):

Dierfire

, MagnaofIllusion, Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:10)

TheBulge has been prodded.

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(3): karnos, MechaGoomba, Masquerade

JohnnyFarrar

(3): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion

Kappy

(2): Saru,

Dierfire

Wingback

(1): The Bulge

karnos

(1):

MathBlade

Not Voting

(3): qubixes, Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-24 16:02:39)

The Bulge is being replaced. In light of the high number of replacements, I'm arbitrarily extending the deadline two days. I hope no players or factions feel hurt by this, I feel it's simply fair to give everyone time to catch up and discuss. I really didn't plan to have seven replacements on day 1.

Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(5): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion, qubixes, MechaGoomba

MathBlade

(2): karnos, Masquerade

Kappy

(2): Saru,

Dierfire

Wingback

(1): The Bulge

Dierfire

(1):

MathBlade

Not Voting

(2): Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-24 16:01:27)

I'm still looking for a replacement for Bulge.

Kappy is on VLA

Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(5): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion, qubixes, MechaGoomba

MathBlade

(2): karnos, Masquerade

Kappy

(2): Saru,

Dierfire

MagnaofIllusion

(1):

MathBlade

Wingback

(1): The Bulge

Not Voting

(2): Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-26 15:59:55)

Wingback and Saru have been prodded

Kappy is on VLA

Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(7): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion, MechaGoomba, Saru, karnos, Masquerade

MagnaofIllusion

(1):

MathBlade

Dierfire

(1): qubixes

Kappy

(1):

Dierfire

Not Voting

(2): Kappy,

JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

JohnnyFarrar

has been lynched! He was...

Townie.

Night action submission deadline: (expired on 2016-06-26 14:00:00). At that time all night actions will be locked and resolved based on last targets received (see rules in post #1 for details if you wish more)

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(3): karnos, Persivul, MagnaofIllusion

MagnaofIllusion

(2): Masquerade, MechaGoomba

qubixes

(1): Saru

Dierfire

(1): Firebringer

karnos

(1):

MathBlade

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(2):

Dierfire

, Kappy

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 15:59:52)

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(4): Persivul, MagnaofIllusion,

Dierfire

, karnos

Dierfire

(2): Firebringer, MechaGoomba

qubixes

(1): Saru

MagnaofIllusion

(1):

MathBlade

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(2): Masquerade, Kappy

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 16:00:09)

Searching for a replacement for Persivul

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(4): Persivul, MagnaofIllusion,

Dierfire

, karnos

Dierfire

(3): Firebringer, MechaGoomba,

MathBlade

qubixes

(1): Saru

Persivul

(1): Titus

karnos

(1): Masquerade

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 15:59:41)

Official Vote Count

Dierfire

(5): Firebringer, MechaGoomba,

MathBlade

, Masquerade, Saru

MathBlade

(4): Dwlee99, MagnaofIllusion,

Dierfire

, karnos

MechaGoomba

(1): Titus

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 16:00:20)

Official Vote Count

Dierfire

(6): Firebringer, MechaGoomba,

MathBlade

, Masquerade, Saru, karnos

MathBlade

(2): MagnaofIllusion,

Dierfire

Masquerade

(1): Dwlee99

MechaGoomba

(1): Titus

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Dierfire

was lynched. He was a

Townie

.

If you have not yet posted after the downtime please confirm by PM that you are on site. Night deadline will be extended until I have confirmation that all players have returned after the outage.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-09 10:33:00)

[MathBlade]

I pick apart people's posts it is what I do. What you call "dumb" I call scummy. It is a difference in how we read people. I believed Dierfire and Masquerade were in collusion because neither ever read the other. In my experience that is usually a pretty big scum tell so I pushed them together. With the flip I know now I was mistaken. Sure you can look back with 20/20 hindsight and know Dierfire is town now. But that is all it is hindsight. He had reads on everyone else. At this point in the game "null" and yesterday "null" is bull.

Well the hindsight argument doesn't work because I didn't EVER think that Dierfire was scum for choosing not to read Masq. I never saw that as scum even in my read of him. I'm not arguing hindsight. Also, Dierfire had promised to read up on Masquerade and give an opinion. Regardless of his flip/alignment, how could you say for a fact that he was lying? He said he was going to read me on D1 and he did on D2. He went through with what he promised. Why couldn't he have done that with Masq? This is something that could be seen even without hindsight.

No. You have been explaining how you want to believe Magna's posts aren't a steaming pile of dog poo. That doesn't mean you are correct and your logic is flawed.

Oh really? So then what do you call 1312? Notice how in your response in 1315, you never address it? Seriously, if you're town, you need to take off your conf-bias glasses and get a clean pair. You're so knee-deep in your own bullshit that you can't see through it. If you're scum, I guess that only makes sense.

Responses in

bold.

I did address your concern. Your concern was that I did not have a Titus read. 1315 addresses that read. Being a decent person to my sister is really NAI. They are my sister. The main thing here is everyone is reading Karnos as town. It is like as soon as the Karnos claim of Neopolitan happened everyone went "nope" they can't be scum. It is ridiculous and horribad site meta. A PR claim does NOT MEAN TOWN. So yes, I may have a conf bias pole up my ass so far it is coming up my head. But at least it's a consistent one and one where I am trying to figure out why everyone "conf towns" Karnos, because that is exactly what we are doing and NO ONE is acknowledging it except Dwlee a smidge.

If everyone is going to insist that we are not lynching Karnos today I want them to physically goddamn acknowledge why Karnos is town and why this is the proper course of action. Not just "oh he said a person was confirmed town". That could be their buddy. No, we said Karnos was going to be forced to do that in our walls and then scum would have to kill them. I am trying desperately to stop town derp here but I cannot do it alone because scum will mislynch me.

[MathBlade]

That's great for VCA.

Have you considered Karnos as town yet Sis?

Have you considered Karnos as scum Sis?

I have been trying to piece together those worlds all fucking game and partner hunting trying to cooperate but no one has stated a single reason why Karnos is town. Tell me why besides their actions.

[MathBlade]

JohnnyFarrar (7): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion, MechaGoomba, Saru, karnos, Masquerade

Look at vote count 931. Look at it. Look who is at the tail end again. Karnos and Masquerade.

Look at the end of the Dierfire wagon. Karnos and Masquerade.

Look who both apologize for "bad" hammers. Karnos and Masquerade.

Look who both put votes on me right out of the gate. Karnos and Masquerade.

I am literally balling because Karnos scum is so damn obvious to me but everyone wants to keep blinders on and remain in this idyllic world where Karnos is town.