Mini 1800 - Game Over
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Just caught up and here are my thoughts:
1) Karnos and Wingback are likely aligned scum or have the same alignment. (Reasoning below)
2) If Karnos and Wingback are aligned, likely the third is in the inactive pile based upon how a lack of a counter wagon has emerged. I want to see how the species slot responds in when replaced but the lack of a counterwagon concerns me. This game feels very odd.
3) I think mostly Persivul v Sick was TvT.
487 to 516 by Wingback is a very odd switch to suddenly town reading Karnos. Karnos's ISO is littered with things I cannot simply imagine a town player doing. For example I have not been in a forum mafia game in a very long time where a player intentionally forgets a read, has a confession time, seemingly multiple times, and has such a defeatist attitude. Town fights. It comes back from being slapped in the face and forces people to make reads and take stances. Karnos feels like a lukewarm player faking passion rather than an actual passionate player to find scum.
Let's break this down further. In 499 he has his confession time which is super scummy. Not only that he says he has given up on "this play" town do not have plays they lynch scum. 504 he then says he is going to withhold reads. Even if you suspect you are going to be lynched as a townie you drop reads, bombshells, something.
517 -- Is almost a backhanded insult/compliment/something. They imply that Karnos is not skilled enough to do it. However there were 0 suggestions that he had done anything of the sort. This makes me think that Wingback knows that Karnos is scum and looking for any reason to save Karnos.
This play is just too weird to be anything but the same alignment IMHO.
Dierfire - I really like Dierfire's 558 and reasoning. It seems spot on. Looks like they are trying to figure out the game and analyze things. Town lean.
The Bulge (replaces Chumba) -- Scum lean -- see more below
Mathblade (replaces Snork) -- Me -- The towniest town to ever town
species -- Scum lean -- see more below
qubixes -- Strong Town lean -- Post 175 -- I think qubixes is spot on with the Persuval v Sick discussion. That feels like TvT ripping each other apart. I don't really understand how that got started anyway. I plan on rereading this tonight and seeing how that got started. The first person on the Karnos list according to VC.
Saru -- Strong Town lean -- Post 326 -- This post screams town to me. They read the argument presented, logically break it down, and reiterate their point in such a way that is clear concise and to the point. Side note: 330 made me laugh like hell. Thank you As the McDonald's theme song goes...ba ba ba ba ba I'm lovin' it.
MechaGoomba -- Null read -- I like how he was towards the front of the Karnos lynch but at the same time this is what scares me. Mecha's posts in an ISO isolated seem fine but when I put them together in context I get the heebie jeebies. If I'm wrong about both Wingback and Karnos being scum together I'll be poking here. Hard. 388 specifically gives me a weird vibe.
JohnnyFarrar (replaces ShadyHood) - Town lean - At first I was reading their posts and like WTF -- They seem really arrogant and brutish at first. Almost something I saw with new scum but then there was a well thought out post that made me go, hey this guy is experienced...Which I looked at my notes and then went waaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Their play throws me for a loop. So I started looking for other posts to try to get an idea and short and choppy and brash seems to be their thing.
Kappy -- Null read --With how the wagon formed on Karnos and not Kappy benefit of the doubt here and they are a null read. I really don't like how they voted Karnos in 192 then hopped back on the wagon later though. 484 with you're welcome rubs me as almost sarcastic like a potential thank you for bussing?
Persivul - Very slight town lean -- Seems like newb town -- I don't like the sheep of Johnny but I do like the short and sweet statement on 406. I get similar mixed vibes from the Persivul v Sick drama but the vote pattern says probably town.
Masquerade (replaces Mizzytastic) -- Town derp -- Masquerade is probably either town derp or scum. I do not see what they are getting at in 542. 510 is one of the scummiest posts in Karnos's list. It is very defeatist. Of course town doesn't want to be lynched but if they are they want to make sure the scum are easy to find. But then Karnos is actively not pushing valid reads, not poking people or asking questions. It's all defense. How Masquerade gets town of of that I do not know AT ALL.
karnos - Very likely scum
Wingback (replaces Sickofit1138) -- I think they are probably scum with Karnos for the reasons above.
I know there's a lot of scum leans up there but they are conditional. Species is a scum read because of limited posts then are now being replaced. 121 seems off. They seemed like they wanted to throw shade on people for their RVS vote. This slot seems very scummy to me and will do so unless they suddenly popup with town play and with town tattooed on their ass for extra insurance.
Masquerade falls into that category of not much to go on. 51 and 20 feel like forced interaction between the two. Something feels off of it and unnatural. Furthermore the Mizzy slot votes Karnos early but that slot vote disappears. 146 furthermore feels wrong. JohnnyFarrar's predecessor made an argument about it and Mizzy was really weird in that. I don't see their logic on it at all. 177 also feels like a coach of Karnos. Coupled with Masquerade not voting what is obv scum in Karnos, they'd be the one I'd pick to fill out the likely third scum.
So overall I think the scum is {Karnos, Wingback, and one of Masquerade and Species} leaning Masquerade because of the Karnos not voting pushes it over. I don't think both could really be it as that'd be 4 scum in a 13P game which seems horribly unbalanced.-
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Have to go to work now so this is a quick phone post. Back late this evening.
@quibixes -- Thanks for pointing out the error. Was reading a lot of pages and I see where I crisscrossed one of the replacements. Will need to reread the Sick/Persivul discussion again because Wingback's response sketches me out and feels like OMGUS. But at the same time that fight felt so TvT.
@Saru -- Really? How the hell do you explain some of Karnos's posts coming from a townie? The defenses seem like stretches to say the least. I am going to reread after work and see if the Wingback part was sleep deprivation but Karnos's post. Explain to me how a townie has some of the posts I have cited. Pretty much anyone not voting Karnos I want an explanation from because that shit doesn't fly. It is the entire context of Karnos's posts that are bad.
If you have questions for me to respond when I get back please @Mathblade me.-
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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Still rereading the thread but the more I thing about it Wingback is almost certainly derp town. Still don't like Masquerade and don't like Dierfire either now or the species/Magnos slot.In post 475, karnos wrote:I'm not going to keep banging my head into the wall to make a point, if you want to lynch me go ahead. As long as the scum who started this wagon on me get lynch in the following days, I'll consider it a fair trade.
Karnos isn't even consistent in his defeatist statements.
He voted a fucking town read who the hell does that as town? Like what?
586 actual town player was this a slip? This made me re-evaluate my Wingback read into derp town. No town says actual town. 586 IMHO comes from a place of knowledge.
I also don't like Dierfire's pedal back after that post. That is sketchy as hell. Who retreats after someone says "actual town"? Not ready for claims/lynches on your top scum read is bullshit. If they aren't your top scumread anymore say so and who is. If you are unsure of who your top scumread is say that. But this is fucking sketch.
Combining that with the prior defeatist posts puts a big FoS on Dierfire especially the one quoted.
I believe we have caught scum in Karnos and now scum are scrambling to find any sort of lynch and revitalize it. Do not let that happen. We should be lynching Karnos today.-
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Wtf Karnos!
1) This is scum and needs to die.
2) Mecha may or may not be a mason I don't know but you sure as hell don't give any ideas to scum.
3) No matter what you claim I don't believe you and you're just making shit up to save your own ass.
4) Today has been OMGUS weekly. Scum are trying to start a counter wagon on me. Don't let them.
5) Karnos would not be a NK target because he is scummy as fuck.
6) "Actual town" This means Karnos thinks there is such a thing as "fake town".
7) I will post my arguments whenever I damn well please. I don't give a shit what day of the week it is. I play when I want and others play when they want. I want scum lynched today and you are not sneaking out of this.-
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Did you see this Mecha?In post 614, MathBlade wrote:@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?-
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Garcia'ing bad. Trying to get a read so I can look back at a certain spot I found odd.In post 615, Kappy wrote:
I know this question isn't for me, but I feel that if karnos is scum, he has done a good job avoiding implicating his scum partner. I have no idea who it might be.In post 614, MathBlade wrote:@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?
When I @Name someone I want them to answer.-
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In post 624, MechaGoomba wrote:
I have the entire nightphase to figure such things out and so really don't want to waste time with preflip associatives, but if I absolutely had to pick someone, I'd go with either Kappy or maybe Dierfire.In post 614, MathBlade wrote:@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?
Also, I find it really strange that karnos has been going "you're scummy and terrible and we should lynch you for all these blatant contradictions" and such, and then as soon as MathBlade shows up and starts 1) voting for him and 2) not looking super town, karnos suddenly hypertownreads me with a flimsy mason explanation and then tries to get me to jump onto MathBlade. Not really seeing the read progression there.
I just chalked it down to Karnos being scum and trying to get a lynch where he can. I FoS Wingback and Masquerade and then they both vote me while maintaining Karnos is town which IMO is stupid. Thanks for answering the question. Gotta go back and find a certain post that rubs me wrong just a sec.-
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This post here feels wrong during your Chumba reaction test. I was wondering if you noticed it to. I don't know how to explain why but it feels like eww...Like a wishy washy soft question. I was wanting to see if that was on your radar during the reaction test. It was something I caught during my reread.In post 79, Mizzytastic wrote:Chumba, I'm confused. What is the difference between stating your opinion about something people don't like to explain why you don't think it is scummy and defending them?-
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VLA til Monday evening for Father's Day and work
@mod
I do not believe Karnos's claim in the slightest. That claim is so sketch. He literally claims a PR that should not give town results, yet everyone is like "Okay let's not lynch the scummiest player because they claimed a weird variant of cop." And worse a cop that has very little protown reason to state their results.
Furthermore look at Masquerade's first post after the claim. They try to enshrine the Karnos claim as gospel. And I completely disagree with their argument. I would have expected a town player to claim the first time they were at L-1. A town player does not mason hunt and out. Just no. I can think of a couple ways this went down
1) Karnos is a Neopolitan but is scum so Masquerade doesn't like when they say they believe the claim, but at the same time throws shade on Johnny.
2) Karnos is a Neopolitan but is scum so Masquerade is throwing themselves into the limelight here in order to do scum PR preservation.
3) Karnos is not a Neopolitan and is scum and this is a last ditch effort to mislynch town.
We should be lynching Karnos today. See y'all on Monday-
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In post 705, GreyICE wrote:Official Vote Count
JohnnyFarrar(4): Persivul, MechaGoomba, Wingback, Masquerade
Wingback(2): Mathblade, The Bulge
Mathblade(1): karnos
karnos(1): qubixes
Kappy(1): Saru
Not Voting(4): Dierfire, MagnaofIllusion, Kappy, JohnnyFarrar
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:10)
TheBulge has been prodded.
VOTE: Unvote
VOTE: Karnos
Haven't caught up on the rest of the thread will do so next break.
Think automated tool is busted-
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Dierfire scum for that weird bit at L-1In post 716, MechaGoomba wrote:
I imagine that when making the role list for this game GreyICE didn't flip a coin for every role that could potentially help either scum or town to determine which alignment it would be.In post 695, qubixes wrote:is there some hidden ratio here that makes Neapolitan >80% town or something?
Later in the game, when we have more flips, we can look at the setup and figure out which it would need more: a town Neapolitan or a scum Neapolitan.
We have 0 flips, are incapable of doing that today, and so shouldn't lynch the claimed cop.
@Masquerade: Okay, so you have a bunch of links to games. Are you planning to analyze them at some point?
From my limited look at his games, I'm willing to write Johnny's behavior off as being playstyle for now. Might come back later.
VOTE: MathBlade
Assume we no lynched, karnos died in the night and flipped town Neapolitan. What would be your reads and why?
@MathBlade: GreyICE did miscapitalize your name, but you also capitalized "karnos" when it should be lowercased.
Species because they are non existent and the slot before them was even more so.
Then I would have to look at the champions of the Karnos wagon. Someone would have had to been pushing that pretty hard.
Gotta go back to work now.-
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In post 601, MechaGoomba wrote:Okay, if it was warning L-3 or L-2, I could see that. If it was warning L-1 soon after a vote count, maybe. But marking L-1 when vote counts are sparse and multiple people are rereading rather than following along? Really?
Even when about to be lynched, when you have your last chance to contribute to town, you're still so cautious!In post 586, karnos wrote:Of course, by saying this I might just push him to quickhammer me. I honestly hope I am wrong, I hope an actual town player is on my side here, but knowing I might get lynched in the near future I'd rather out this theory now rather than wait.
You're not saying "These people are the scum, lynch them tomorrow." You're saying "OK, you asked for reads? Here are reads."
Above all, that's what I really don't like. When you have a chance to contribute, you equivocate, but you are willing to reiterate your flimsy defences as much as you need to.
Do you believe Karnos would expect that your defense would be able to get the lynch off of him? If yes, why? If no, then why would he care whether you defended him or not?In post 597, Wingback wrote: Scum rarely push back against one of the only people defending them when almost everyone else is against them. They'd be ecstatic about having an ally.
@GreyICE: Apparently the votecounter registered Mathblade's vote for karnos as for Wingback because they capitalized the first letter?
You will notice in the post you quoted that I had a town read on you. Still do. However I play a lot of games with Titus and your meta reminds me of hers. Get in front, lead, and demonstrate to the thread where your wishes are. Titus does this brilliantly as scum or town. However on D1 she usually cracks under the least bit of suspicion. When you responded to the flow and kept going that was one indication you were town. I also was scum reading Karnos at the time. By putting that there I realized I could try to figure you out early.
Now for the post I quoted. It is the Wingback paragraph that really sold me you were town. It wasn't that you were asking questions it was the how you asked them. Instead of asking what Wingback thought they would get out of it (which is what I would have expected if you were scum trying to rile Wingback up) you seem to be trying to get Wingback to think in a different way and demonstrate where you think their logic is off.
Finally, for me it is a matter of principle. You never let anyone who is that scummy avoid lynch. No matter what they claim. I have won games in face to face where I claim cop and people sneeze at it. When you find scum you kill it. No matter what it begs otherwise.
Now let's get to Dierfire's Unvote and revote -- Either way is fishy.
Let's assume Karnos is scum -- Then the Unvote and revote lets Karnos have a second bite at the apple where their claim magically comes in that the majority of people seem to just let go.
Let's assume Karnos is town -- Then the Unvote revote business looks like someone who is scared of the flip and what it would mean to be there.
Very rarely on a D1 lynch would I find that anyone has a reason to waffle like that and to not even state a reason other than they understand.
@Mecha @Dierfire Should cover both y'all phone posting-
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FYI greyICE fixed the counter Thanks
Unoffical Vote Count
MathBlade(3): karnos, MechaGoomba, Masquerade
karnos(2): qubixes, MathBlade
JohnnyFarrar(2): Persivul, Wingback
Kappy(2): Saru, Dierfire
Wingback(1): The Bulge
Not Voting(3): MagnaofIllusion, Kappy, JohnnyFarrar
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:01:53)-
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Champions of the wagon means two things to me:In post 736, MechaGoomba wrote:
So you were sold that I was town in 601. Makes sense, that explains the shift between 561 and 722. However, that still doesn't explain anything related to the quoted part of 721. Did you not consider me to be a "champion of the karnos wagon"?In post 728, MathBlade wrote: Now for the post I quoted. It is the Wingback paragraph that really sold me you were town.
On reread, Dierfire is starting to look a bit off to me. One thing I've noticed is that he over-explains everything. Lots of his posts seem to be packed full of information in order to hide the fact that his actual reads are extremely uncontroversial.
Take 228 & 229: He townreads Persivul but doesn't actually engage with the arguments of the people suspecting him, puts a lot of effort into a townread on Chumba despite the fact that she wasn't being scumread or doing anything super important at the time, ambivalently doubtcasts on Sick with a side of preflip associative, and then uses a ton of IIOA to say essentially "I don't get Kappy's Sick reads progression".
Nothing risky, nothing that needs to be explained that much, and yet it's a full screenlength of text. I haven't seen any past game where he did this; has anyone played with him enough to say for certain?
1) Who were the first voters and pushers (and how loud/quiet they continue that push throughout)
2) The loudest players on the lynch.
For example,
If Karnos would flip town then I would want to find the person who originally implied Karnos did something scummy. Then do the same for the first three voters. More than likely of this grouping there is at least one scum. I find it very rare that 4 players in a 13 player game would all be town in that scenario.
In case of the other option I would look at someone trying to promote the train as it was going. This case would be the one you would have fallen into except for where I town read you. Because I was in a hurry for that post for work reasons I just dropped the town reads rather than explaining they would be excluded from the scum options before.
I also take a look at VCA (similar to Titus) but I do it differently. Rather than who was on what spot it is usually telling to me to see major shifts in voting pattern or if someone enters and exits a wagon. I would look at the time around Dierfire really hard to see what reasoning they could have had. So this third case of Champion would be someone who made the lynch happen with strategic votes.-
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Fuck your rules. Rule 1 lynch scum. Rule 2 don't mislynch. Everything else is suggestion.In post 732, MagnaofIllusion wrote:So back from V/LA …
I’ll be starting my read in earnest today but have kept a soft eye on the thread via phone since replacing in.
First issue that needs to be clearly stated (and this is mostly for the benefit of Qui and Math) –
Rule Number 1 of Mafia – in a closed set-up you do NOT lynch a claimed investigation role that is un-CCed Day 1. You just don’t. If the claim is countered? Sure it is possible. We will get more information (from Karnos’s potential claimed results, future interactions and Nightkills) to sort him.
Specifically on Karnos’s claim – Neopolitan is actually stronger than some other Non-Alignment Cop roles as it provides 100% clearance with Vanilla Town results. It isn’t as strong for catching scum outside of incorrect VT claims but vetting VTs is huge from a standpoint of putting scum in a bad position as to whether to choose to kill suspected Power-roles or kill VTs who are 100% clear. Any time you handcuff the scum in some way you are benefitting Town.
This does not benefit town in any way for this specific PR. If Karnos is scum and targets a scummy player and then Karnos flips scum, we in essence gain nothing except to put any players that Karnos claims were VT under a microscope. However if Karnos flips town then we'd know that those people were townfirms. I would advise caution if we aren't going to do the smart thing and lynch them.-
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In post 769, MechaGoomba wrote:Karnos should out all "VT" results, but no "Not VT" results unless they contradict claims. The town should not attempt to direct karnos.
Spoiler: Reasoning
I will say that I consider a lot of this "but how do we deal with karnos" speculation a waste of time. We're close enough to deadline that getting a decent lynch together should be a priority.
UNVOTE: MathBlade
VOTE: JohnnyFarrar
You've made more posts than any other player that replaced in near the same time as you, and yet you have far less actual content than anyone else.
I could write it off as playstyle, but my meta analysis makes it look pretty clear: you do usually have this style of many short posts, but usually you're moving towards something constructive with them. I can't see that here.
PE, @karnos: Don't assume that scummy players can't be power roles. That said, I personally would recommend you target scummier players, because you can townfirm much more easily than scumfirming, and a townfirm is worth more if it's on a widely suspected player (though preferably someone active enough that they'll be able to make use of conftown status). As stated above, please don't say anything about who you're going to target; not only does it potentially out PRs, it opens the door to a whole new world of WIFOM.
I like this post here. I think my gut read on Johnny being town is right. I am going to start looking at some of the people who started this wagon and moved it off of Karnos. Probably scum there.In post 767, JohnnyFarrar wrote:
So with all this suspicion on him we're going to leave it up to him who to investigate AND whether or not he states the results?In post 763, MechaGoomba wrote:He has no reason to out a "Not VT" result unless they claim VT, and even if he outs every VT result the scum will still have to choose between killing PRs and conftown.-
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What makes you think there is a jail in this setup?In post 768, karnos wrote:For the record, I'm willing to go either way. If you think scum might kill my target just to waste the investigation, I could just investigate the scummiest players, and if they aren't killed that is a bit of a tell on it's own. I could at least verify that they are or are not VTs. Of course, if I am investigating by direction then it becomes obvious what the result is if I don't find a VT.
I do have a target in mind currently, if I don't get any other suggestions.
OTOH, I think scum would most likely just kill me outright, and I'd rather be jailed and miss using my power than get killed, so there is that.-
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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Low and behold what do we have here. Masquerade was actually the first person to drop a vote on Johnny but because of when GreyICE did vote counts it looks like Persival. Then when the wagon starts to pick up steam Masquerade votes me. They also do not explain why they are voting me either or try to explain why they are voting me. Instead it is what they "want". This looks like trying to split the bridges more so than any case they can provide. If they thought Johnny was scum but I was scummiest I would have expected them to at least explain a reason of some kind as to why me over Johnny. This would get people to look more closely at me and try to analyze me, which is what you want people to do to your top scum read. To help gain understanding of if you are right or wrong and why.In post 657, Masquerade wrote:I'm inclined to believe Karnos' claim. He's hinted at being PR during his pressure and I think scum would love to claim if they can come up with a good one and since scum have daytalk, if Karnos is scum his buddies could have helped him. I would have expected a claim to happen sooner if he was scum, so to say.
Also, the lack of a counterwagon being pushed tells me scum aren't interested in moving the attention away from Karnos.
I'm not sure about mathblade yet, he should be experienced enough to not assume scum hard-defend each other? If Wingback and I are Karnos' buddies, why would we want to endanger ourselves? For a long time it looked like Karnos was getting lynched no matter what. I'd rather lynch someone who hasn't given an opinion yet. I'll start with Johnny because he suggested it.
VOTE: Johnny
What are your reads on Wingback, Mecha and mathblade atm? Do you believe Karnos' claim?
@Qubixes: My first instinct was 'well that kinda cop is more useful to scum than to town' but that was before I checked the wiki and still thought it was just a fancy name for a vanilla cop. Best case scenario Karnos (if his claim is true and town-aligned) lives until lylo and cleared enough players, or identified scum, to get us a win. But that depends on other factors. I think 2 town cops will make town very strong and I have never seen it happen (tracker/watcher with cop sometimes ye, but not 2 kinds of cops) If there is another cop, I think they should decide for themselves whether to cc or not. I'm not cc'ing Karnos' claim, but if I had a cop-role I wouldn't cc for reasons I don't want to explain rn.
Then for Dierfire there is that vote/Unvote/vote to Karnos. When Karnos claimed then Dierfire posted they would look at Johnny and Kappy. They posted one thing where they said they want Johnny to place a vote but then votes Kappy with weak reasoning. I get sick vibes from that.
If we aren't lynching Karnos today, I would pick Dierfire.
VOTE: Dierfire-
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And furthermore why call it out here? God I wish we would lynch you right now as this is very bad PR hunting IMHO.In post 775, MathBlade wrote:
What makes you think there is a jail in this setup?In post 768, karnos wrote:For the record, I'm willing to go either way. If you think scum might kill my target just to waste the investigation, I could just investigate the scummiest players, and if they aren't killed that is a bit of a tell on it's own. I could at least verify that they are or are not VTs. Of course, if I am investigating by direction then it becomes obvious what the result is if I don't find a VT.
I do have a target in mind currently, if I don't get any other suggestions.
OTOH, I think scum would most likely just kill me outright, and I'd rather be jailed and miss using my power than get killed, so there is that.-
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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I don't think it would result in the jail keeper (if one exists) outing themselves at night. Generally if a role is suggested I have seen conversations go on about it during the day. It is more about then potentially someone reacting to the idea of jailing Karnos or that type of discussion I want to avoid. It also implants ideas in people's heads without evidence to back them up. Then people if setup spec continues accidentally drop crumbs to if they are a PR or not. We don't have enough information to even suggest this. Which is why, respectfully I asked that question to Karnos. I also wanted to see what prompted him to think that specific way. While I believe Karnos is scum, I think most people subscribe IMHO incorrectly to Magnos's mantra. I only commented on it to prevent town derp which I have seen in the past.
I also understand anyone could be lying as well. However my town reads are earned through good posts and if you do bad ones you get increased scrutiny.
Yes I "did that thing" where you were in the group. However there are 13 players in the game and looking at all those categories results in a narrowing down of scope. Then you analyze those people and see what happens. It seems like the majority of people are favoring the information Karnos would in theory give over the analyzation they did of the slot. Some players are likely to be town within that scope. The scope becomes more focus when there are lynches to guide it further.
I do plan on doing a reread when things get a little less hectic at work anyway. It wouldn't be because you are in the net. Obviously there are three kinds of champions I look at. Not every case will have scum all the time. Usually at least one of those cases are right though.-
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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Fine. From now on every time I talk with you I will use the damn quote button even though what I post after answers your question. When I am phone posting this is atrociously bad and annoying and makes it very hard to type anything but so you can tell when your posts are responded to.In post 781, Masquerade wrote:
I was indeed first to vote Johnny. Then I voted Qubixes when Johnny's wagon built up, then I revoted Johnny, then I voted you. If you had issues with my votes, why didn't you address it when I made them?In post 776, MathBlade wrote:Low and behold what do we have here. Masquerade was actually the first person to drop a vote on Johnny but because of when GreyICE did vote counts it looks like Persival. Then when the wagon starts to pick up steam Masquerade votes me. They also do not explain why they are voting me either or try to explain why they are voting me. Instead it is what they "want". This looks like trying to split the bridges more so than any case they can provide. If they thought Johnny was scum but I was scummiest I would have expected them to at least explain a reason of some kind as to why me over Johnny. This would get people to look more closely at me and try to analyze me, which is what you want people to do to your top scum read. To help gain understanding of if you are right or wrong and why.
And since you seem to really want to know why I'm voting you: Snork wasn't impressive at all. You so far have focussed most on Karnos, you also kept your vote there very long and in one of my previous posts I explained why I think that's scummy (683). You keep throwing shade my way but you don't engage with me and you ignored what I said about you in 593 and 669.
Whoever since you seem to rehash the same damn points I will outline the answers for them previously.
The main argument in 593 was that my reads don't make sense. I took that feedback to heart and said I was rereading the thread in 585. To just recycle an argument that was already pointed out is sketchy as hell. The point in 593 was already addressed. People noticed flaws in what was clearly a sleep deprived reread which I then corrected.
However since you bring it up again I have seen scum hard defend a lot. Especially during a math tunnel. Anyone who knows me knows I fucking bring it. I will pressure my scum reads until they do something that makes me think they are townie. This causes things that other people may not be used to and forces people to take hard stances. In games that I am in I force my scum reads to take firm stances and show why they believe things.
Now in 669 -- Again a recycled argument. Addressed above though for your convenience.
You have been lynch shopping ever since Karnos's claims. Give us a read list. Towniest to scummiest towniest on top. Go.-
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Magna, it is already demonstrated that I do not subscribe to the game theory that you do. From my POV especially since scum have daychat this claim just feels wrong. Like all kinds of ewwwwwww. No one has provided a decent reason why Karnos is town. In a face to face Mafia game in Chicago there was a werewolf cop (Cheetory6) who claimed cop and no one CC'd and so everyone assumed he was town and then coasted to a victory. So yes. If I do not believe cop claims I want them lynched because they can and will fuck with you if you let them.In post 787, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
See this is the sort of argument that I’m not sure comes from someone actually assessing the situation.In post 773, MathBlade wrote:This does not benefit town in any way for this specific PR. If Karnos is scum and targets a scummy player and then Karnos flips scum, we in essence gain nothing except to put any players that Karnos claims were VT under a microscope. However if Karnos flips town then we'd know that those people were townfirms. I would advise caution if we aren't going to do the smart thing and lynch them.
1. Making karnos claim his results leaves him open to being caught in a lie (someone counter-claiming his result as inaccurate). This covers both the case that he isn’t actually a Neopolitan or that he is scum and tries to fudge his results.
2. Making karnos claim also leaves him open to being busted by other roles (like Watcher / Tracker / Rolestopper / Jailkeeper / Etc).
3. Of course you take a claim by karnos with a grain of salt until he flips Town. That’s common sense 101. However lynching him and being wrong is absolutely worse than lynching another scum player Day 1 and karnos getting killed at Night as Town.
This whole post I find really questionable. You specifically went looking for the scum who “moved the wagon off of karnos” despite the fact the karnos’s claim moved the wagon off himself. And you devote a large paragraph to showing why you suspect Masq for both voting for Johnny and not properly explaining his vote for you. The Dierfire analysis is exactly the opposite – there is little in the way of explanation of scummy play and in fact Dier didn’t vote Johnny. But you vote Dier instead for voting away from your gut Town read onto another player instead. This vote does not make any sense in context of your posts hunting scum pushing the Johnny wagon.In post 776, MathBlade wrote:Low and behold what do we have here. Masquerade was actually the first person to drop a vote on Johnny but because of when GreyICE did vote counts it looks like Persival. Then when the wagon starts to pick up steam Masquerade votes me. They also do not explain why they are voting me either or try to explain why they are voting me. Instead it is what they "want". This looks like trying to split the bridges more so than any case they can provide. If they thought Johnny was scum but I was scummiest I would have expected them to at least explain a reason of some kind as to why me over Johnny. This would get people to look more closely at me and try to analyze me, which is what you want people to do to your top scum read. To help gain understanding of if you are right or wrong and why.
Then for Dierfire there is that vote/Unvote/vote to Karnos. When Karnos claimed then Dierfire posted they would look at Johnny and Kappy. They posted one thing where they said they want Johnny to place a vote but then votes Kappy with weak reasoning. I get sick vibes from that.
If we aren't lynching Karnos today, I would pick Dierfire.
VOTE: Dierfire
Why did you not vote Masq in that spot?
I don’t think it makes any sense pre-claim for you to karnos to call him Town if you are partners. Scum you has little to gain pushing against the wagon when karnos had been very scummy to that point. It would only tie them neatly in a package to be lynched in succession if karnos flips scum. In fact that only way it makes sense at all is if you were a Goon and karnos is indeed a Neopolitan (or some other important PR) and even then that is only a delaying action. And you didn’t do it in a way that drew significant attention and votes to yourself.In post 782, Wingback wrote:Why do you think Mathblade was misguided in calling me and Karnos partners when that seems to be your stance as well (or at least, that's what I'm gathering from the daytalk comments)?
Now if karnos is Town – your positioning makes sense as scum trying to position themselves for Town cred in the case that karnos is lynched. But in that case my Johnny read would require rethining given how strongly Shadyhood defended your slot early on.
It makes sense as a post I can see coming from Town. You express several concerns about Mathblade’s stances which I agree with – primarily that you don’t make sense as a karnos partner. The thoughts I have about your potential as a karnos partner are well reflected in the first paragraph. You also address Quib and defend your position on karnos in a pretty clear and cogent manner which reads as Town oriented to me.In post 782, Wingback wrote:I'm also not sure how Post 567 made solid sense from your perspective as you seem pro-Mathblade, anti-Wingback & Karnos.
Keep in mind – Town can be wrong. I think you wrong about karnos but your method of getting there at the end of the day appears well reasoned.
As stated above – I think you are wrong. I think you are putting too much credence in very detailed explanation about how a single string of events only makes sense from Town when others have pointed out why they are at best NAI. But again – you being wrong doesn’t inherently mean you are scum.In post 782, Wingback wrote:What do you think of my reasoning for townreading Karnos? Do you think it is implausible for a town player to townread Karnos? If Karnos were to flip town, how would that affect your reads on the people that attacked and defended Karnos and why?
You haven't said anything about Dierfire. What's your opinion on him?
That said if karnos is Town my opinion would absolutely change for the reasons I said in my prior section – Town you defending scum karnos is feasible. I don’t see scum you defending scum karnos. But I certainly could see scum you defending a Town karnos who was strongly under fire and a strong possibility for the day’s lynch.
Null. On my first read-through his impact was minimal. I didn’t see anything that stuck out to me as scum posting but I didn’t see thinks that looked Town either. Since I have several stronger candidates I haven’t felt the need to dig into his ISO at this stage.In post 782, Wingback wrote:You haven't said anything about Dierfire. What's your opinion on him?
What is your read on Dier?
Second post let me stop you right there before you spew more nonsense. The Karnos claim is what contributed to this clusterfuck but that is what Dierfire's L-1 actions need investigating. They have not came online since my vote and I want an explanation. Do I think Masquerade is scum? Yes I do. At this point do I think they are more scummy than Dierfire? No. I want Dierfire to fucking explain.
Gotta run to work now.-
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I absolutely should be paranoid. Paranoia is an excellent thing. It is about when to apply that paranoia that you are disagreeing with. Yes the number of games where an unCC'd cop provided useful evidence is more than 1, but those unCC'd cops didn't crumb other roles and didn't do even a quarter of those things here. In the games where the cop was unCC'd and was scum (face to face games), we traded a townie for the sake of that information when we did it. Now I'm going to ask you: Is your site theory worth potentially a different townie being lynched? For me, I always evaluate the claim based upon how the rest of their play has been. If there is any shred of redeeming qualities I back off. However no one points to anything but the claim which infuriates me.In post 790, MechaGoomba wrote:
I don't do that sort of thing. If someone's likely to be scum, vote them. Claims shift people into the "not likely scum" category when they're not CCed, and into the "definitely scum" category when they are.MagnaofIllusion wrote: I think karnos is scum but I’m not voting for him because it is stupid to do so given his claim and the game-state.
1) Couldn't you have said that before I badgered you about it? The thing where you're as vague as you can possibly be until called on it is really annoying.MagnaofIllusion wrote:Johnny acquired 4 votes in a fairly short period of time after karnos’s claim. If Johnny is Town then there is little chance scum are just going to let that wagon fall by the wayside – especially if karnos is scum. Establishing a strong alternate wagon would be important given the pushes by Math and Quib to lynch karnos even with the claim. Yet the wagon which could have been propelled forward by scum instead was allowed to fizzle.
2) That statement assumes that a counterwagon would be needed. If karnos was town, mafia would be gleeful Math and Quib were trying to do their work for them. Given that you said your Johnny read is unaffected by whether or not karnos is scum, that doesn't really make sense.
3) This close to deadline, a fizzling wagon is a benefit for scum. If town ends up scrambling to not No Lynch, mafia can direct it as they please.
4) Insulting the intelligence of those that disagree with you is an easy way to ensure you'll never convince them to agree.
Right now I'm gut-reading Magna as scum, but I'm worried I'm confbiasing and/or blinded by frustration, so I'm not willing to vote him yet.
I'm planning to reread his ISO to find what it is that bugs me; if someone else could look as well to make sure it's not just me, that would be great.
PE:
Just because a bad thing happened once doesn't mean you have to be paranoid about it in every single future case.MathBlade wrote:No one has provided a decent reason why Karnos is town. In a face to face Mafia game in Chicago there was a werewolf cop (Cheetory6) who claimed cop and no one CC'd and so everyone assumed he was town and then coasted to a victory. So yes. If I do not believe cop claims I want them lynched because they can and will fuck with you if you let them.
How many times have you played in a game where an unCCed cop was town and provided useful results? I'd assume more than one.
The other thing is I really don't like Dierfire's voting pattern further after their response to me asking. It looks like on post 510 that he crumbs vengeful. However, that is not the claim they ended up doing. The most likely result is that since the Karnos wagon was picking up steam that scum said to start dropping off power role crumbs.If he was really evaluating Karnos for role claims, why would he not be more suspicious when Karnos claims? They then link to 657 in the following post as a post they agree with.
657 is an absolutely horrible post. Horrible. Masquerade says if they were scum they would have claimed sooner. More like if they were town they would have claimed the first time they were at L-1. Secondly, the lack of a counterwagon is a shitty argument here for two reasons. A) There were a fuck ton of replacements into the game. Arguing that there wasn't a counterwagon is ridiculous. Hell, if Masquerade really suspected me of being scum, the argument can be made that I was forced to bus Karnos(more on this later regarding Magna). If Masquerade really suspected me at that time I don't think Masquerade would have brought up the lack of a counterwagon followed up with lynched no matter what in the same post. Lynched no matter what would mean you'd look for scum bussers not a counter wagon.
This brings me back to Masquerade's posts:
Their biggest gripe was why I didn't bring it up when it happened. I only had minutes in order to get my posts out to try to understand because I was on VLA. I didn't have time to go into a wall into every little instance Masq was scummy. In general I pointed to their lack of passion and how they aren't pushing me. Then they come back and say they are okay to move back to Johnny if they have to for time. Again -- I did not ignore your posts. I either addressed them in another person's answer or they were no longer relevant. Their next post is about how they want my lynch. Apathetic again no reasons. There's no push. They aren't poking at what they find bad about my posts and trying to explain themselves to everyone. They are just "I want this" (paraphrase).
Magna then also tries to suggest that I could be bussing Karnos. This along with Wingback's 782 is sketchy as well as Masq's argument of a lack of a counterwagon is sketchy. I already FoS'd these two as a potential combo. This looks like a way to support having a read without actually having one. They also ask why I did not vote Masq in that slot. This is really telling as it looks like Magna is trying to get buy in from a player that seems mostly town read rather than actually having stances. That second paragraph is also bullshit. Claims do not move votes. People vote/unvote based on what they read. Secondly a gut town read when I was reading was just that. Gut. If something changes to give my gut indigestion, I poke at that thing til it no longer gives me indigestion or confirms itself as eternal bullshit spewer deserving of lynch. That town lean was before Dierfire started doing crazy vote shit.
Johnny Farrar is a town read based upon meta I have read and the current events in the thread. This lynch looks strongly like something weird is going on. IMHO Mecha's warning bells about the Johnny lynch are probably accurate. Furthermore, I don't like how when I suggested Masquerade and Magna's slot as scum and now they are both dropping shade on my slot while actively pushing other agendas or none at all.
If we don't lynch Karnos, we should lynch within these three IMHO.
VOTE: Masquerade
I'm changing my vote to Masquerade because Dierfire looks to be making an effort while Masquerade is doing the exact same shit I called them out for in 784 and they have had 24 hours to give a reads list with actual stances in it.
Manga/Dierfire -- You should give a reads list as well. If Karnos is scum, then it is highly probable that I am wrong on at least one of you three. Do something other than respond. Breathe. Live. Right now for all three of your slots I'm having a hard time finding what you believe. (I was including Dierfire in this but they already said they were going to when I pressed preview for this post.)-
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Which is it? Did you read it and think it was misreps? Or did you read a small bit of it and decide it is a misrep and not read further?In post 805, Masquerade wrote:I'm here just really quick before having to go, and the bits my eyes caught in mathblade's post made me not even want to read it because it's a big collection of misreps.
Mathblade or me today. Lets go.-
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In post 809, karnos wrote:Too many the huge wall posts lately. Can't anyone write a concise short point anymore?
We should be lynching Mathblade.
Mechagoomba, you asked me what my reads are when I was about to by lynched, but now nothing is being done with them. Look at Mathblade's iso, there is no slow logical progression. Two reading posts, and then a massive wall of text demanding my lynch followed by immediate vote to L-1 561 562 You can see how hastily the post was crafted because he calls Persivul vs Sickofit "TvT" while at the same time calling Wingback "probably scum" - this sloppy mistake shows he didn't really do the work, but rather was just desperate to get out a hit piece on me ASAP before the wagon lost momentum.
666 also strikes me as scum motivated, pushing for a lynch on Father's day when some players won't be able to check in.
His posts since my claim have just been focused on getting any other player lynched while keeping the idea that I am scum on top of everyone's mind. I get a sense that I'm being setup, like scum have a blocker or something, so they can push for my lynch tomorrow when I don't get a result.
A few updated reads:
Persivul: I still have a town sense from him, but it seems like he is posting less than in other games, that could be NAI though. prob town
MagnaofIllusion: My read of species was based largely on inactivity, and I am seeing a totally different side from the slot with a more active player in it. It almost feels like he is saying "karnos is scum but we can't lynch him due to the claim", setting things up to lynch me later, but to be fair that is probably just personal bias. null
Masquerade: Was mostly a null read, but the recent interactions with Mathblade moves him to a solid town read. My sense is that masq and mathblade couldn't be same alignment.
Mathblade: See above. I am in the minority here though, and I am will to switch votes to prevent a no-lynch, but would much prefer to just lynch mathblade. scum
JohnnyFarrar: I really don't see the scum read here, but maybe I'm being bias because he defended me to a degree. He can't keep using the "busy" excuse forever, especially as we approach the end of the game day. null/town
Wingback: I don't know anymore. If he was scum looking for towncred by stopping my wagon, he must have been tempted to actually hammer after my claim and he didn't, so that tempers my previous scum read. He could be scum playing the long con, but I'm finding it less likely at this point. null (not due to lack of indication, but due to conflicting indicators)
Rinse. Wash. Repeat. You going to say something new here? You made these points eons ago. Are you going to actually put effort into what you think?-
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Again you quote the post I responded to. Once indirectly once directy. If you feel there is something I have not addressed tell me. Stop respamming the same post and calling it an argument. Still waiting on your read wall to take a stance on something.In post 812, Masquerade wrote:
This.In post 809, karnos wrote:You can see how hastily the post was crafted because he calls Persivul vs Sickofit "TvT" while at the same time calling Wingback "probably scum" - this sloppy mistake shows he didn't really do the work, but rather was just desperate to get out a hit piece on me ASAP before the wagon lost momentum.
@Qubixes: Here it is very, very concise:
And math keeps on ignoring or miss-reading everything I say. Do you agree with his observations of me in his 803? To me it feels like he went through my iso and looked for keywords he could use against me, but he got a lot of stuff so wrong I'm not even going to dignify it with a response.In post 781, Masquerade wrote:Snork wasn't impressive at all. You so far have focussed most on Karnos, you also kept your vote there very long and in one of my previous posts I explained why I think that's scummy (683). You keep throwing shade my way but you don't engage with me and you ignored what I said about you in 593 and 669.
And why is he starting a new wagon on Dierfire, which picks up a little bit of steam, then switches to another new wagon with now even less time left?
My flip won't prove mathblade's alignment in any way or form, I mostly hope that everyone sees math's case on me blows. I offer myself into a 1v1 because of how certain I am that he's scum.-
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Dierfire's post makes no sense. If at first he thought that Karnos was a role and then unvoted. Why did he all of a sudden revote? It's not like the post that caused Dierfire to think this disappeared. The fact you "partially" explain it and then say that it is a chronological order would be understood. In that case, why are you not worried about the fact that 510 that Karnos crumbed vengeful. This isn't that he'd like a scum to be lynched after he dies...That is with me. That's a pretty blatant vengeful crumb. I also agree that it is a partial explanation. It feels like you put that explanation together because I got suspicious of it (e.g. you asked why it was funny) instead of just explaining your reasons. If someone asks me why I do something I answer. I don't ask them why they think I am weird. I know I am and own my shit.In post 813, MechaGoomba wrote:
No. No. Absolutely not.In post 803, MathBlade wrote:I didn't have time to go into a wall into every little instance Masq was scummy.
I know for a fact you are capable of posting without drowning the thread in walls. Even an extremely quick skim of your past games proves that.
Stop complaining that you can't bludgeon people into agreeing with you by throwing words at them until they assume you're right.
Start making arguments that people will be able to read and understand.
In post 803, MathBlade wrote:That town lean was before Dierfire started doing crazy vote shit.Explain to me, without walling, without assuming anything is obvious, why moving from L-2 to L-1 could possibly be scum-motivated, as well as why the explanation Dierfire has given is inadequate.
Examine your assumptions. Your argument is built on false premises.
I feel that the wagon was losing momentum already. It had stalled hard at L-2 when we were doing the long back-and-forths; the masonspec was what got people voting for you seriously.In post 809, karnos wrote:this sloppy mistake shows they didn't really do the work, but rather was just desperate to get out a hit piece on me ASAP before the wagon lost momentum.
I would say that MathBlade's read does look rushed, but that sort of thing is relatively common when people are just replacing in; if I had to guess, I'd say they were doing a really quick reread so they could get caught up and contributing quickly.
You have 0 votes on you; I think everyone already sees how bad Math's case is. However, I'm not convinced they're scum; it's easy for town to go super tunnely, super wally, and end up hurting the town by burying everything in giant TvT 1v1s. Bad case =/= scum; rushed case =/= scum; stupid case =/= scum, even.Masquerade wrote:I mostly hope that everyone sees math's case on me blows. I offer myself into a 1v1 because of how certain I am that they're scum.
Motivation is simple: He wanted a claim. They said so themselves. Karnos was already at l-1 and didn't claim the first time.-
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See prior post for the vengeful crumb.In post 814, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
1. Where is said other crumb you are claiming as a basis for your paranoia?In post 803, MathBlade wrote:I absolutely should be paranoid. Paranoia is an excellent thing. It is about when to apply that paranoia that you are disagreeing with. Yes the number of games where an unCC'd cop provided useful evidence is more than 1, but those unCC'd cops didn't crumb other roles and didn't do even a quarter of those things here. In the games where the cop was unCC'd and was scum (face to face games), we traded a townie for the sake of that information when we did it.Now I'm going to ask you: Is your site theory worth potentially a different townie being lynched?For me, I always evaluate the claim based upon how the rest of their play has been. If there is any shred of redeeming qualities I back off. However no one points to anything but the claim which infuriates me.
2. Before you said the UnCCed cop cruised to victory which ostensibly means there were more Town lynched than just one. Why is it, in your theory, as now or never situation? That’s not the case at all.
3. The bolded looks like a slip to me – you specifically say talk about the risk of a “different Townie being lynched” when you are talking about lynching karnos? Ooops a little bit of unconscious knowledge came leaking out right there didn’ t it.
The second the Johnny wagon becomes less viable than Math’s I am moving there.
In post 809, karnos wrote:It almost feels like he is saying "karnos is scum but we can't lynch him due to the claim", setting things up to lynch me later,
So karnos – let’s talk about setting up positions to make it easy to justify later lynches and why this isn’t what you are doing with Johnny here …In post 809, karnos wrote:JohnnyFarrar: I really don't see the scum read here, but maybe I'm being bias because he defended me to a degree. He can't keep using the "busy" excuse forever, especially as we approach the end of the game day.
Now or never is a blatant misrep. As I said, most of the times if you don't lynch the person who comes under pressure and go into a D1 lynch, we're more than likely going to end up lynching a townie d1. Not only are the majority of lynches on d1 town, but add in the fact of pressure for time after forcing someone to claim, it adds to the difficulty of lynching scum.
Also any time you wish to start scum hunting would be good instead of fabricating scum slips where none exist. I was making a point about lynching someone who could be town instead of your scum read is stupid. I am town. However that is a claim I have to prove to everyone through my posts.-
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Then post something useful on what you have read. Lurk sac is suck sac.In post 810, Persivul wrote:Personally I don't feel like going back through 33 pages until we have a flip.-
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...You mean you really want my mislynch but you'll go ahead and probably mislynch Johnny if begged? No lynch is bad yes. But so is blindly sheeping because the majority says so. It was pointed out earlier in the day at you that you vote your scum reads. Like what the everloving fuck?In post 817, karnos wrote:
Okay, lets be clear. I want to lynch mathblade, I think he is the most obvious scum.In post 814, MagnaofIllusion wrote: Mafia is a forums game based on READING. Reading isn’t a hardship.
So karnos – let’s talk about setting up positions to make it easy to justify later lynches and why this isn’t what you are doing with Johnny here …
However, I will vote Johnny if the need arises. This is a team game. While I like to think I have it all figured out, truthfully it's all a lot of guesswork and hunches. If the majority, including my main town reads, decide to lynch someone, I'll move my vote to help it happen. I'm not going to be stubborn and cause a no-lynch.
As to your first point above, the game is very much a writing game as much as it is a reading game. Sometimes a point that could be made in a couple sentences becomes a meandering page of text. Say more with less! I'm honestly not expecting any real change in this regard, it was mostly just an expression to share my feeling on the matter.-
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In post 825, Masquerade wrote:I just really feel like Mathblade is looking for a viable wagon that isn't Johnny. I think Mathblade hoped Johnny would get lynched sooner and then that didn't happen and now he has to maintain his stance on Johnny as a townlean so try to start another wagon, but someone not too viable so finally we'll end up with either a Johnny-lynch anyway, or a no-lynch. Johnny is more likely town than scum in this scenario. I don't have a strong read on Johnny currently, I wish I had. I'm not opposed to lynching him but I'd rather keep fighting for a stronger scumread a little while longer.
@Mathblade: Why is Johnny a townlean again?
Johnny is a townlean due to their ISO. When their replace in was so blatantly choppy at first that sent warning bells in my head. Surely no player is this obstinate.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=18774
I took a look at a recent game and they are doing a lot of the same things here. Short choppy posts. Doesn't reread a thread and does quippy one liners. That seems to continue here. When he does post he makes it short and (usually) sweet.-
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Please do. I looked in a hurry as I am getting ready for work at Magna's ISO by searching for the word "meta" in their ISO and none of those posts came up with a post about Johnny's meta.
Also are you going to answer 826? I find it completely hypocritical that you scum read me for "ignoring" posts I addressed and then ignore my numerous requests for your reads and now direct questions to you.-
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510 was mentioned in the prior post. For complaining about people not wanting to read you sure don't either.In post 510, karnos wrote:Anyway, for bloodthirsty players like Mecha and qubixes, why not use this time to be productive? If I am scum, who are my scum partners?
I'm really curious to see what you think, seeing what you think prior to my flip is much more valuable from a town perspective. If I'm going down, I'd like to take at least one scum with me.
Taking scum with you is a vengeful crumb. He doesn't say that he'd like to catch scum or point them out. No. He says take them with me. The only way that happens is if Karnos is vengeful. Hence this post is a vengeful crumb.
@Masquerade -- Magna says the post doesn't exist. My read of Johnny says that he is town especially with how the wagon moved off of Karnos. The Johnny wagon eeks of desperation by scum to not lynch Karnos.-
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Furthermore since it is established you aren't actually reading my posts. It clearly follows that the rest of your response is clear misrepresentation/frame up. It feels like you are trying to do the same thing to Mecha.In post 840, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
This is a straight up Appeal To Fear - "Lynch me and you are going to look terrible".In post 835, JohnnyFarrar wrote:Dude shut up and lynch me. I want to see you try to blame it on me being bad as a player when you're really just confbiasing out your ass.
In fact your entire last post is nothing but shade. You gonna ask questions of people to determine their alignment? Or do you just want to admit you're scum?-
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Already did. Determined not to read aren't you?In post 841, MathBlade wrote:
510 was mentioned in the prior post. For complaining about people not wanting to read you sure don't either.In post 510, karnos wrote:Anyway, for bloodthirsty players like Mecha and qubixes, why not use this time to be productive? If I am scum, who are my scum partners?
I'm really curious to see what you think, seeing what you think prior to my flip is much more valuable from a town perspective. If I'm going down, I'd like to take at least one scum with me.
Taking scum with you is a vengeful crumb. He doesn't say that he'd like to catch scum or point them out. No. He says take them with me. The only way that happens is if Karnos is vengeful. Hence this post is a vengeful crumb.
@Masquerade -- Magna says the post doesn't exist. My read of Johnny says that he is town especially with how the wagon moved off of Karnos. The Johnny wagon eeks of desperation by scum to not lynch Karnos.
VOTE: MagnaOfIllusions-
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This. So this. I am trying to keep my posts more brief but I feel like we are derping so damn hard right now. I am pushing my top scum reads because I really think Johnny is town. It is really hard to elaborate why but the way votes happened screams Johnny is town.In post 849, MechaGoomba wrote:People.
We have a single day left. Replacements will not cause an extension; we had something like 5 replacements and deadline only got extended 2 days. 1 replacement won't make a difference to the deadline.
Right now, we've got a couple of players that are getting into giant wall vs. wall slapfights that do nothing to convince anyone of anything. These people need to recalibrate their priorities, because right now they're playing to look smart at the expense of actually helping town.
We then have the players who up to now have been productive, who have good ideas, but aren't posting, quite possibly because of the impenetrable walls.
If the day continues as it has been going, there is almost certainly going to be a no lynch.
Even if a lynch does materialize, I have no confidence it will hit scum. I think Johnny is the most likely to be scum, but I'm not super confident that he is.
If day 2 ends up going down this same road of arrogant posturing and meaningless back-and-forth, we might as well call the game for scum there.
Please try to make this a game where it's worth trying to scumhunt. Don't force people to enter the wall wars if they want to be heard.-
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Bad post is bad. This looks like an attempt to escape the Neo claim early. So much bad here.In post 850, karnos wrote:
The two shouldn't be equated. My thought was that if you were scum trying to get me lynched, maybe scum have a roleblocker, or some other role to mess with my ability to investigate. I get a nagging feeling that the talk about lynching me tomorrow comes from knowing that I won't have investigation results because you already know I will be blocked somehow. Or, maybe it's because you know I will be nightkilled and it's a misdirect. It just feels off to me. I don't have a strong scum read otherwise, but it is what it is.In post 839, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Well then – why again is it something you intimate to be scummy behavior for me to have a reason not to pursue your lynch today (your claim) but still scum reading you and potentially looking to lynch you in future days but when you take a similar stance it is reasonable Town play. Seems to me to be a case of Cognitive Dissonance …In post 817, karnos wrote:Okay, lets be clear. I want to lynch mathblade, I think he is the most obvious scum.
However, I will vote Johnny if the need arises. This is a team game. While I like to think I have it all figured out, truthfully it's all a lot of guesswork and hunches. If the majority, including my main town reads, decide to lynch someone, I'll move my vote to help it happen. I'm not going to be stubborn and cause a no-lynch.
I was not trying to imply that simply having a FOS on me while voting someone else is a terrible thing. I just get this feeling while reading that maybe there is some detail to be read between the lines.
As far as my willingness to switch my vote, that isn't something that could be manipulated by some power-role or nightkill. If the mathblade lynch doesn't happen, my vote isn't going to help anything by sitting on him. I can either move it to a viable lynch, or I can be part of the problem and potentially leave us with a no-lynch. It's essentially out of my control.-
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I didn't bring it up directly. However I did bring it up when I said I wouldn't be believing Karnos if they claimed. If you are vengeful and crumbing the proper strategy is if you are ever scumread hard is claim VT and fall on your sword and take out a scum. I also hinted at it with the Dierfire questioning / prodding of their votes. If I notice something I either stay very very silent about it or give a quick brief poke. I wouldn't immediately out a vengeful. That nukes their viability. Claiming Neopolitan and crumbing vengeful makes Karnos confirmed scum to me.In post 851, Masquerade wrote:First of all, I had no time to check at the time but I distinctly remember someone saying something about Johnny's meta. I thought it was magna (I still do actually..) but he says it's not so it might take me a bit to find.
I skimmed over your wall and saw some misreps. You can try to read my iso again properly and then try again.In post 838, MathBlade wrote:Please do. I looked in a hurry as I am getting ready for work at Magna's ISO by searching for the word "meta" in their ISO and none of those posts came up with a post about Johnny's meta.
Also are you going to answer 826? I find it completely hypocritical that you scum read me for "ignoring" posts I addressed and then ignore my numerous requests for your reads and now direct questions to you.
For one, I did not say I would have claimed sooner if I was scum, I said I expected scum to claim sooner than Karnos did. This is just one example of stuff you have misinterpreted, and I'm stuck on a scumread on you and there is nothing anyone can do this dayphase to change that. I will reevaluate after we've had flips.
Please go and worry about getting a lynch at all today, it's obvious that I'm not able to get a wagon going on you.
Now off to find that thing..
Oh, one more thing, I never took 510 as a crumb, but I suck at those. Why did you wait so long to bring it up?-
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IMHO Mecha is biased here. 469 is content. Granted they haven't been posting as much content but they are moving towards constructive things.In post 853, Masquerade wrote:@Mathblade (and Magna):
Sorry guysm I confused your names!In post 769, MechaGoomba wrote:You've made more posts than any other player that replaced in near the same time as you, and yet you have far less actual content than anyone else.
I could write it off as playstyle, but my meta analysis makes it look pretty clear: you do usually have this style of many short posts, but usually you're moving towards something constructive with them. I can't see that here.-
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It would make sense if Karnos is newb scum who didn't talk about it to anyone. But yeah that is a pretty big assumption :/ I will have to ruminate on that one.In post 864, MechaGoomba wrote:
It would make him confscum to meIn post 860, MathBlade wrote:Claiming Neopolitan and crumbing vengeful makes Karnos confirmed scum to me.if karnos crumbed vengeful.I don't believe that, because Occam's Razor suggests that a hypothetical scum!karnos didn't actually crumb a role that would get him instalynched, using wording that is so unspecific I wouldn't accept it as a crumb if he did claim vengeful, only to claim a completely different role later, in a game where scum have daytalk.
469 was one of the earliest posts Johnny made. If anything, he's moving away from being constructive.In post 861, MathBlade wrote: 469 is content. [...] they are moving towards constructive things.
Regardless of that, I don't think 469 actually was content. It was long, sure, but almost all of it was extremely inoffensive. He townreads Mizzy, Persy, and me while scumreading Chumba, karnos, and kappy; he thinks sick's play is bad, but also that he shouldn't be lynched. Oh, and all of this is based on posts over 10 pages back.
Can you honestly say that anything in that post moved the game forward? Did anyone argue with it? Question it? Use it to back their own theories? No. It stood alone, contributing nothing but words.
About Johnny - No one interacting with Johnny is not anyone's fault but our own. You're saying the post didn't move anything forward but very few of these posts actually are. Trying to get reads out of people has been extremely painful (like Masq). A post's worth is not measured by how many interactions but how people react to it. The fact very few people poked at it, town or scum, probably means that the majority of the scum reads are not scum but the majority of the town reads are probably town. A player is not measured by how many posts they make or how many words but by the actions evoked.-
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In post 872, Firebringer wrote:Okay, not much really in that quick go through of iso.
The things I could see being him scum were his actions regarding other players which seemed kind of buddy/extremely friendly attitude, at least in the beginning, it kind of drops off a little with some apathetic attitute later in the day.
That oculd just be player/mood at the time, but it kind of seems actually scummy. I could hammer this.
Anyone else want to go into that?
@Mod do we get anymore extensions or is the deadline correct in vc
Because here? I thought you were doing your slot's ISO or did you mean Johnny?-
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