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[Jaack]

VOTE: BigYoshiFan


You can't win without making a few sacrifices.

[Jaack]

VOTE: Gear

Seems like a good place to start.

His vote on rask feels like the scummiest and his question in 59 isnt exactly a useful one.

His explaination implies he's done a bit of meta diving, at least in regards to light and/or rask. But if he has meta dived, then why bother with the question.

All in all, it looks like someone trying to look busy.

[Jaack]

I have done no meta diving. Light told us that she's played with Rask before.

Shows my reading comprehension skills need some refinement.

That being said, I still don't see the value in 59. What were you hoping to gain from that question?

[Jaack]

I'm not sure I like what Maria's been doing all that much, but I don't think it's coming from scum.

Still like my gear vote. Think Jake might be on to something with gerry.

[Jaack]

You don't know how she plays. This could very well come from scum MariaR.

So I can't make judgements on players I've never played with before?

I don't see the scum motivation from what Maria had posted. If you disagree, then explain away.

[Jaack]

As I said before, I think gerry is a pretty good scum candidate, but right now I'm leaning yoshi as the scummiest.

I really don't like 154-he didn't even ask why I was leaning town on maria, just that I shouldn't be townreading her. 174 is another scummy looking thing. He claims neither to have seen anything noteworthy, and he doesn't show any interest in changing that. Everything from yoshi so far has either been meaningless fluff or more oriented towards shutting down discussion as opposed to promoting it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BigYoshiFan

[Jaack]

@yoshi - We're obviously not going to get anything aside from troll comments from psyche right now. I don't think its worthwhile to flood the thread with questions that are never going to get answered. If he continues this garbage much further, it probably be best to lynch him and move on, but for now I'd rather put my efforts in on players that are going to respond.

@gear - Could you explain why my response to yoshi are 'overblown'. You just quoted two comments of mine, voted me without further discussion and have been pushing anyone who's posted, well basically anything about me to vote for me.

@ganski - What are your thoughts on yoshi and gear?

[Jaack]

Gear hasn't said an awful lot really, though I'd like to know why he was interested in mine and Rask's history. Town side of null, not much else to say yet really.

As for yoshi, I didn't notice until I ISO'd him but I'd like him to elaborate on 154, why he thinks Maria looks scummy. As I've said Ive got a reasonable townread on Maria so I'd like to know what he sees as scummy in her. 171, 231 and 232 seem to be him complaining about how it's difficult to read people this early on, and whilst I understand that sentiment he must of picked up on something worth commenting on further than 'that could've come from scum Maria'. He's asked a couple of okay questions after that but overall, a weak scumread, but would need to see more to solidify that.

Now that gear has done more recently could you expand a little there?

Jaack, your comment to Yoshi "So I can't make judgements on players I've never played with before?" seems over the top to me. Yoshi telling you that Maria's play could be from scum-Maria, is just him warning you to be cautious with your read on her. What do you think was scum!Yoshi's motivation here? You also attacked Yoshi for not being interested in why you are town reading Maria, well, it seems to me that it would make more sense for you to explain why you are town-reading her, and see what Yoshi has to say, but that's just me. I'd also like to see where you think that Yoshi has been trying to shut down discussion.

I thought that yoshi's comment showed very little interest into why I was townreading Maria. He wasn't making any effort to show me where I was wrong or anything. His later explination in 231 shows no indication why he thought my town read in particular was worth commenting on. It wasn't a particularly strong read, and its not until 281 that yoshi can come up with a reason why my slight-townread on maria was worth singling out, which is an explination that contradicts 231. First it was because he didn't like early reads at all, but then it's because Maria's a good player.

It feels more like yoshi wanted to comment on Maria (who was the topic at hand) but wanted to avoid much fanfare.

Now look at yoshi's play since then. 173 simple reaffirms 154 without further explination. 174 is worthless and pretty blatantly anti-discussion. 231 is completely conciliatory to me after I started pushing him further. Note here that 173 is similarly backing away from confrontation with Maria.

In general, it feels like yoshi was trying to avoid making waves. That's why he basically conceded everything to me in 231 when I initially voted for him, and it's why he spent a good amount of time focusing on psyche recently.

But let's look at how yoshi approached the whole psyche-thing. He says psyche is 'shitposting-town" in 234, asks like 4 different people about psyche, votes for him, but never once asks psyche any questions directly. All in all, it looks like he's trying to draw attention to psyche's lack of content - which is obvious - but he's not trying to do anything about it. And then 295. I can understand trying to keep your reads close to your vest (although I don't endorse it) but the way he does it is scummy. It looks to me like he want to follow someone else's reads and logic.

All in all, yoshi looks like someone who's trying to avoid making waves. He concedes basically everything to someone else.

you actually never said gerry was a good scum candidate and your reasons for yoshi loop like you are reaching for something. So can you go back to gerry for a second. Tell me why you think gerry could be scum.

I'm not sure I like what Maria's been doing all that much, but I don't think it's coming from scum.

Still like my gear vote.

Think Jake might be on to something with gerry.

While I may not have come right out and said it, I did pretty heavily imply I thought gerry was reasonably scummy, just I liked gear less at the time. I liked your initial questioning of gerry (141) in regards to his reaction to Maria's vote.

As for gerry now, I didn't like his reasoning in 280 all that much in regards to you (jake). His reasoning is vague, aside from the part about you focusing on him, which still fails to explain his initial scumread/vote on you, since it came afterwords.

----

I'm becoming more and more convinced that yoshi is scum. Gerry is probably my number 2 now.

Gear's recent stuff with regards to me looks ok to me, so he's out of my scumpile for now.

[Jaack]

Lots to respond to.... here is the non-yoshi half:

that's a huge wall that I don't have time to read on my phone atm. I did skim the part that you posted after you quoted my post and I don't think you even heavily implied anything about gerry. The only post I saw was where you said you liked where I was headed with regards to me questioning him but I wasn't scum reading gerry at the time so agreeing with my questioning doesn't mean you are scum reading somebody.

so did I miss a post somewhere? can you link or quote the post where you heavily imply it?

That is where I implied I was leaning scum-gerry, but reading my own post, I can understand if you didn't read it that way.

@Jaack how certain are you of BYF scum over gerryoat?

I'm pretty convinced that yoshi is scum and it would take a lot to convince me otherwise. Gerry, on the other hand, is merely more likely to be scum than not.
After this set of respnses, I'll work on a full reads list so I don't just tunnel in further on this yoshi mess.

Gear's posts still feel really flat to me, and I struggled to get my head round 298 - when he's made detailed posts they seem a little obfuscating. Slight scum read for now.

So you are scumreading all of yoshi, gear, and gerry? Since you're voting gerry, I assume that is your strongest read, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jaack]

And the yoshi half.

At the moment, Jaack's reaction to 302 seems it but over-the-top to me. I don't feel like going into deep detail on a phone, but because of Jaack's post I have scumreads on both him and Gerry now. By the way, my initial scumread was Jake, but I am putting that aside now because I have a stronger read.

If you're initial scum read was Jake, then why did you ask him this:

I'm getting a scumread on someone, not sure if I feel comfortable revealing yet. Are you comfortable enough to share? Perhaps if it's the same person I'll feel more comfortable sharing.

If you were scumreading Jake, why would you ask

him

this, as opposed to

literally any other player

. And you're also going to need to explain why you were scumreading Jake, even if you are walking it back now.

1. Gear's stuff seems okay even though Gear is defending me, AND Gear voted Jaack.
2. His whole reasoning is from one encounter between himself and me.
3. I really don't care why you are townreading Maria, but I think it's inaccurate to make one of her this early.
4. What are you trying to say about Maria and me?
5. Regarding Psyche, I am trying to get him to contribute. I would post when I have tried, but there are too many (and too obvious) to be honest.
6. So you're willing to completely ignore Psyche even though he has made absolutely no contribution.
7. What did I concede to you? You said I was being inactive, and I became more active.

1. That question wasn't intended for you, but okay.
2. I don't know what this has to do with anything.
3:

Overall, I don't like reads being made this early in the game. Of course, you can make them, but I won't see them as very accurate. You're though, I should have asked why you had townread her. I'm sorry I have not made an effort to promote discussion within this game, I'll try to do that now. I'm busy weekends. :/

Sure you don't care.

4. I'm trying to say that I think you're scum because your initial post regarding Maria (154) was scummy. Maria has little to do with that.
5. No, but you are trying to make it look like that. You've asked four different players

about

psyche, but you have yet to ask psyche anything. You did vote for him in 257, but you had previously called him town in 234, so it's not like that vote was going to accomplish something.
6. I see no point in wasting my time with a player I'm not going to get any worthwhile response out of. I'd rather spend my time on more fruitful endeavors.
7:

Overall, I don't like reads being made this early in the game. Of course, you can make them, but I won't see them as very accurate. You're though, I should have asked why you had townread her. I'm sorry I have not made an effort to promote discussion within this game, I'll try to do that now. I'm busy weekends. :/

Like every single line of this post is conceding to what I had said earlier.

[Jaack]

Jaack, could you explain your town read on Maria?

My initial townread on Maria was because I was getting a feeling of defiance that I think is more common from town than scum, particularly in the early part of the game (stuff like 148). It's not the type of game I like necessarily, but I think it comes from town more often.

It's not enough to toss her into my town pile for good, but its enough to write her off for now.

As for players I haven't talked much about yet --

I think ecane is reasonably townish. Mostly this is due to her actions regarding gamma. Gamma isn't a vote target that makes much sense for scum-ecane. Gamma isn't a player that's been high on people's radars either way, but he's been here and not a pushover. Seems like an odd fight to pick for scum early in the game.

Speaking of gamma, he's seemed a bit opportunistic and has seemingly been around the scum-flavor of the day a lot. It's not enough for me to scum read him - both psyche and yoshi were perfectly acceptable votes for him - but its something to remember for later. Other than that, nothing is really swinging me either way.

I think I already expressed a growing townread on gear, but if I didn't, its there. I've liked his approach so far, even if we disagree on things. Looks like someone trying to figure things out as opposed to pushing a mislynch or avoiding pressure.

Jake looks like town. He's come to a lot of the same conclusions as me about yoshi, and I like 378 in particular.

I have literally no opinion on light ganski. She has enough content where I feel bad for not having an opinion but her posts tend to leave no impact on me whatsoever.

Rask has looked pretty townie to me, which is apparently a popular opinion. Probably the strongest townread I have.

[Jaack]

Who cares if it was directed to someone else? I found it contradictory to his posts so you're damn right I'm gonna say it! He didn't even elaborate on why I could be wrong, just ignored it because it was from me.

I don't see how anything I said is a contradiction. I didn't ask you for your read on gear. You offered it up anyway, and I saw nothing of note there. Well at least until now, because there is a (admittedly very small) contradiction

1. Gear's stuff seems okay even though Gear is defending me, AND Gear voted Jaack.

Can you share your townreads then?

Maria and Rask. You know why? Because despite my epic grills they are still defending me, looking into the motive behind what we post and not being afraid to post everything they think about the game. My mafia game sucks, and I think scum is trying to take advantage of that.

You said you were townreading (or at the very least not scumreading) gear, in spite of him defending you, but later town read Maria and Rask for the same thing.

I admittedly might be badly englishing with the first quote on gear, but is someone defending you scummy or townie? Or if it depends on the situation, why would gear's defense of you be different from rask's or maria's?

---

In other news, I do not like the unexplained unvote from gamma there. It looks like a knee jerk reaction to Maria's preceding post (402) that he felt the yoshi wagon was cooling off and he decided to jump. This continues a pattern of opportunistic play from gamma.

[Jaack]

Well that was a lot of posts....

I still think Jake is town and this wagon is dumb.

In fact, my reads have remained largely unaffected from all that junk, aside from maybe prefering Gamma as a lynch candidate over yoshi.

[Jaack]

I am town watcher, saw light_ganski targeting rask last night.

VOTE: light_ganski

A quick iso of ganski doesn't leave me with any good feels as to a partner, but my guess it would be someone on the Jake wagon. Probably Gamma or Yoshi.

[Jaack]

And the gamma/yoshi thing isn't just me holding over reads from D1. Jake and I (two townies) were both voting yoshi when gamma leapt onto the wagon. I highly doubt that three townies voting a fourth townie would not draw interest from scum.

[Jaack]

I am town watcher, saw light_ganski targeting rask last night.

VOTE: light_ganski

A quick iso of ganski doesn't leave me with any good feels as to a partner, but my guess it would be someone on the Jake wagon. Probably Gamma or Yoshi.

Why did you target light_ganski?

I targeted Rask. Watcher sees who else targets my target. Rask was the obvious nk choice since everyone but ira was hard townreading him.

[Jaack]

UNVOTE:

We aren't lynching ganski until everyone checks in and I say so.

Just looking at how everyone else acted toward ganski d1.

Yoshi:
Only mentioned ganski once, in passing D1, in 234. It's hard to blame him too much for this since no one was paying attention to ganski at all, but its something. (Edit-this applies to like half the player list....)

ecane/iraonavp:
ecane had a couple of passing conversations with ganski. 76 feels like a genuine interaction as opposed to scum distancing, but that's about it there. Ira did not mention ganski D1.

gamma:
Only mentions ganski in 160 asking a fluff question, in every sense. This works I guess

gear:
Hey, someone with some level of interest in ganski. Initially scumreads ganski before turning into a slight townread. On the one hand, I can totally see scum talking more about their partner than other people, but at the same time nothing looks super forced.

gerry:
A couple of meaningless interactions with ganski (188 and 189). It's kind of sad how ignored ganski was D1.

maria:
Hey look, another person who paid a bit of attention to ganski! Seemed like maria was occasionally trying to get ganski into the loop, but I'm hesitant to give her too much in terms of townreads because of it. Said she would tunnel ganski, psyche, and gerry; which looks townish at first glance, but on further mental discussion, it's hard to give her too much credit for this, since gerry and psyche were more lynchable at the end of the day.

psyche:
Gave her a slight townread in his ketchup post. I'm pretty inclined to call this town at this point.

So yeah, lynch gamma D3. If he flips town, lynch yoshi D4 on the basis of wagon analysis.

[Jaack]

Hey Jaack, what do you think of Gerryoat?

Well he looks a lot worse after 721 and 722...

Uff gerry is hard. I was scum reading him yesterday and he was on the mislynch, but at the same time, I doubt ganski's scum partner would buy ganski's defense so easily.

Yep, I targeted rask last night. I'm a tracker, and my result was that she did nothing. I wanted to check her out because it would have been good to definitively clear a townread and I've been fooled by rask before.

I'm not really buying this. The set-up would be too weird. If there are two scum, then scum is incredibly wrecked if the ninja gets lynched D1 - two investigatives, and a larger town than usual for a two scum game. On the other hand, if there are three scum with even a one shot ninja, they are incredibly powerful, as they can essentially invalidate two of the town prs night one with the ninja, with the chance of there being a false positive (either if the tracker and watcher target the same person, like you are claiming, or if the tracker targets the watcher). That's just too strong for 8v3, considering we have just two mislynches.

I also don't really buy your reason for tracking rask - even a negative result like you claim to have gotten wouldn't clear rask and you had to be aware that he was probably going to be nked if he was town.

We're still waiting on maria and gear to check in, so have a bit of time to scumtroll, but we aren't lynching gamma today when we have a clear guilty.

[Jaack]

Is a two-scum team with two PRs possible in a normal game? Because imho that would be the answer to that problem. And in any case I feel like the presence of a watcher, whether or not you believe my claim, should imply a scum PR such as a ninja because the watcher is so powerful. I would say it rules out a three scum team though.

It would be possible in a vacuum, but the set up you're claiming would be ridiculously swingy. Tracker isn't a particularly strong investigative with three or more scum, but its very powerful with two, since it becomes basically a full cop with one dead. Adding in the watcher, it makes it virtually impossible for the lone partner to win if the ninja gets lynched D1.

Ugh, I tracked rask because I've been suffering from terrible paranoia about her as a result of our last game . Maybe it was a bad choice and an emotionally driven one but I would have thought you or Maria would have been just as good NKs as her, were I scum looking to NK someone.

While I might be able to accept your explination in a vacuum, it's still far too convinient. The assumptions I have to make for you to be town are far too great while I hardly have to assume anything for you to be scum.

[Jaack]

We're not lynching gamma today, we are lynching ganski.

While I think that gamma is pretty scummy there is at least a small chance that he is town, and some sort of PR shenanigans could illucidate that further.

We're going to have gear and maria check in, offer their opinions and commentary, and then we're going to lynch ganski.

That being said, gerry's play here is somehow making me lean town there as I highly doubt that one scum would so blatantly try to protect his scum partner.

[Jaack]

As I stated, a ninja could exist in a setup with tracker and watcher.

And as I stated, that would be a dumb set up.

We're lynching ganski. Get over it.

[Jaack]

ok, lynch gamma tomorrow. promise?

That's probably the best move, but I'm almost certainly not going to be around for that so I can't guarentee anything.

Do take it slow on D3 though. It looks like everyone from the jake wagon is going to be around tomorrow. Don't make the same mistake again, please.

[Jaack]

I'm going to give gear 12 hours to get in here and post things. And other people can post things I guess. Barring any developments, I'll hammer at that time.