Mini Normal 1848 — Game Over!

[MortFeld]

Re: Wobbu being Green bc he didn't play the newbie card
Seems NAI at best? As in, by Toto's argument, Wobbu did not respond in a way that was a Red! tell, but the reason for voting TF in the first place did not come from a reasonable Green! motivation. Seems to cancel each other out at best, though I do not think that his response was particularly Green! either. NAI response + Red! motivated vote = Red.

I really want to see what Wobbu thinks about other players beyond his dislike of TF's play. There's a reason I asked for a reads list specifically.

Pedit: Naomi, what do you think about HS and Wobbu respectively? With the disclaimer that my reason for Red! reading Wobbu is

not

simply that he voted TF, it's the way he did it.

[MortFeld]

oook I guess I'll take that? I am feeling the HS train lose traction and I'm wondering why. They've been on L-2 forever.

[MortFeld]

Ah ok, that's fair.

One replacement has explicitly said that HS is town, supporting this with an argument that shows only that HS' Creeps push might be NAI (and I disagree), so there's that.

[MortFeld]

Be forewarned that, at least in my opinion, TwoFace is exaggerating the extent to which Wobbu has misrepped certain things, but he has misrepped others for sure.

[MortFeld]

So Red is Creeps, HS, and TB. Who's Green?

[MortFeld]

Wobbu aint scum, id say.

Why not? You don't find the case compelling?

Pedit dude he didn't call HS scum

Well then he only has 2 scum reads. I'm trying to be charitable.

[MortFeld]

How did you get that he was scumreading HS from that post anyway?? his conclusion is that theres no need to think him scum

That was literally not his conclusion. His conclusion was that only the PR fishing was Red! motivated and therefore he wasn't voting yet.

Why are you being charitable to your scumread

I'm being charitable because I think doing so is more conducive to having a discussion than yelling "RED! RED! YOU'RE RED!" I shouldn't have to explain why.

Why are you speaking for him in saying that he doesn't read HS as Red?

[MortFeld]

Well then he only has 2 scum reads. I'm trying to be charitable.

No supposedly I'm scum for the same reason he was previously town reading me

The more relevant point of info then would be that he's flip flopped regarding your alignment (he TRd you, then either threw shade or started to SR you, and now suddenly you're no longer suspicious/he refuses to talk about you for some reason?).

[MortFeld]

I asked you for a reads list. Where did I ask you to exclude TF?

[MortFeld]

Naomi's interaction with Twoface doesn't read scummy to me.

I agree. What do you think about her vote on and interaction with me?

[MortFeld]

Oh ok. In case Wobbu is actually confused I said that because until he posted his SRs, all he had said about the game was that he disliked your play.

[MortFeld]

@Wobbu

So Red is Creeps, HS, and TB. Who's Green?

@HS

Naomi's interaction with Twoface doesn't read scummy to me.

I agree. What do you think about her vote on and interaction with me?

[MortFeld]

Hi ArcAngel! I think your slot has looked pretty objectively Red but I at least am very open minded and mindful of TB's noobness affecting his play. See 779 for a summary of my thoughts at that point - they've changed somewhat since then. Looking forward to you catching up tomorrow.

[MortFeld]

I'm actually impressed that TwoFace didn't understand what Naomi was saying.

you put the word post in brackets, then the post number, then /post in brackets.

[MortFeld]

Yeah I saw. As I said earlier I don't see her push as Red! motivated so I agree with your conclusion, even if some of the things you said are wrong. Thanks.

I might press Naomi on some parts of it but I'd much, much rather see her push another lynch than defend her push of mine.

[MortFeld]

I notice you haven't voted, HS. Why not? And if you were to vote, who would it be for?

[MortFeld]

@Mort
I know this goes against what I said just then, but I'm waiting for the V/LA wave to end and I'm waiting for replacements to catch up. Also, voting for people who just replaced in makes me feel bad.

If it weren't for that, I'd probably park my vote on TB's (ArcAngel) slot.

Let it be known that if a wagon picks up for any of these slots, I'd be on board for a lynch;
Kamelot, ArcAngel, Creeps
I could probably be convinced over on Wobbs and Nero, but I'm not entirely sure. It'd have to be a good case.

Wobbs - the only thing making you think he's Green is the post where he acknowledges his reasoning was bad? And for the slot, you keep saying Copper looked Green, can you go into that more? His methodology for suspecting me and TF looked off to me.

Nero - I mean, zero content, apparently getting modkilled.

Creeps - I'd rather worry about him tomorrow.

I would be very happy with a Road lynch. They're V/LA, I'm not sure for how long. They've misrepped multiple times and their only content is saying they don't think certain wagons are good. I don't think they've read the thread save for maybe ISOing one or two people.

[MortFeld]

To clarify - Road being V/LA is not a reason I suspect them, it's one of the reasons I haven't voted them for refusing to interact with me.

[MortFeld]

I can't be sick in bed and be sitting on the computer at the same time.

Completely understand but deadline is in 5 days so I'm pretty much assuming you won't have contributed much by then.

[MortFeld]

Wobbs isn't a green read. All of my green read comes from Copper. Wobbs looks like a fool to be honest, his misrepping is horrible. This is why I'd need a case.
The copper greenread is mostly because of the effort he put into gamesolving.
He acted consistently within himself, as in he never had a contradiction of motive or otherwise. His opinions logically changed when he found reason to (see post 159) and in his argument with you and TwoFace, he picked his side and stuck with it.
His analysis of scum likely opportunistically jumping on his wagon is very credible, and my read of his argument with you and TF screams TvTT to me.
Posts like 429 and [post]463] just don't come from scum in my eyes, especially the latter which is filled with logically consistent reads that coincide with what he's expressed recently.

Thanks for this assessment. I really don't see Red playing the way you are, especially when you've been at L-2 for such a long time. Earlier I said that I don't see Green!HS as likely, I do think that you've done certain things that logically should not come from town.

Drone, your vote of HS is basically because of this. What do you think of the idea that, judging from HS' more recent posts, they are actually VT and were fumbling with theory with all that PR hunting?

Pedit: it's not important, but it seems like you're saying you won't be able to catch up and post until Monday.

[MortFeld]

Sorry, I misread your post. That's my bad, looking forward to your contribution.

[MortFeld]

Yeah I would normally categorically oppose an extension but we've had 4 players replace out, 1 with chronic inactivity, and 1 who's been V/LA for most of the DP, which adds up to nearly half of the playerbase causing some sort of delay.

[MortFeld]

@TF - You think no lynch benefits town here? Why?

[MortFeld]

Ok. What he was trying to say is unclear, I guessed.

[MortFeld]

Yeah of course. Isn't that true of every DP?

[MortFeld]

Ah I see.

Wobbu, why aren't you giving me your Green reads?

[MortFeld]

If there were questions for me pls restate

I felt like we had a good back and forth with my 1039 and 1042 but you went missing after 1042. So some specific questions:
Why did you, in 1040, misrep Wobbu's conclusion about HS from 1035?

Explain your Green! read of Nero please.

Mort still gives me the heeby jeebies but w/e

I'm not particularly happy just leaving this here. Is that a Red! read? What about my play gives you the heeby jeebies?

Why is your vote still on Creeps when you basically said it was a failed reaction test?

[MortFeld]

Do you want me to yell about you not reading? If you don't think reading is important, you're probably Red. If you're Green, I assume you'll get to it soon if you're no longer V/LA.

you give me the heebies and plenty of the jeebies due to your way of things

I still do not know what this means and it looks like you're just throwing shade.

For one calling me in 1040 misrepping when it was me misreading. thats kind of a negative spin there yknow. youre right in he had HS as a scumlean so my b

Cool, so you misread and did not misrep. That's an answer to my question.

Nero is town bc i just read his catchups
He doesnt give a shit bout looking town

Nero has commented on RVS and the very early stages of actual gameplay, focusing exclusively on 2 players. Do you think it would be difficult for a Red player to appear gamesolvey with this sample size?

VOTE: Toto
Who wants to play guess why

We could also play explain your vote because 'guess why' is a game reserved for people who have read the thread.

[MortFeld]

Hmm, your read of Nero isn't even that they look Green, it's that they don't care about looking Green. My question stands, corrected: Do you think it would be difficult for a Red player to appear carefree with this sample size?

[MortFeld]

Pedit not caring about looking town is a towntell friendo

This doesn't answer my question. Let's accept that not caring about looking town is a towntell. Scum know this and will try to imitate this behavior when possible. As the game goes on, this becomes more difficult as information grows.

Now, Nero has commented on a very small portion of the game timewise and has exclusively focused on 2/13 of the game's players. The question was: is not caring about looking town really such a strong town tell when the sample size is so small? What I'm asking, more generally, is - how can Nero's attitude throughout these posts, whatever it is, possibly be cause for a Green! read?

I also DID NOT call Nero carefree

This also looks like avoiding my question. I used carefree as a stand-in for 'not caring about looking town,' which seemed reasonable but I will be more precise with you in the future.

I havent read the thread but i read Totos ISO so why do you think i voted him

Nope.

When did i say nero was appearing gamesolvey i just said he didnt give a shit abt looking town
Do you think hes scum or town
This post feels very wait and see and not very scumhunty

I am completely null on Nero because his slot has like, 3 posts with content and it's basically all regarding RVS.

This comment feels very throw shadey and not very scumhunty.

Do you have an opinion on whether im red or green based on my attitude abt reading?? do i sound as though im overly concerned with reading the whole game to you y/n

You do not sound overly concerned with reading the whole game. Is this supposed to be a Green! tell?
Your side of this interaction with me feels defensive and skittish. You are making these weird digs at me and have been since you replaced in and voted Creeps because you "wanted to test what Mort said" 846 which by the way looks literally like a reaction test, contrary to what you said in 1133. I felt you were avoiding my questions earlier with complete lack of answer but you were V/LA so I kept an open mind; now I feel you skirting my questions in a Red! way by presenting as answers words that are not answers. I think you are Red.

One of the few things I agree with you on is that HS has been obvtown posting.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Road

[MortFeld]

Road needs rope. Give their interactions with me an honest read and tell me they aren't Red.

[MortFeld]

Oh I misread a part of what you said about red/green read based on your attitude toward reading.

But I mean, are you kidding me?
You said: aren't you gonna get mad that I'm not reading?
I said: If you're Green, you'll read soon. If you don't, you're probably Red.
You said: Well which is it? Am I Red because I don't want to read, or Green?

I literally said, if you actually don't read I think you're Red. Am I supposed to be metaing you or something to figure out your attitude toward reading?

[MortFeld]

Wow, that's your response?

Where did I say that I didn't think HS was obvtown posting before you said so? Before you answer, peek at 1101 where I breadcrumb this idea.

[MortFeld]

It seems like you think I had Red! motivation to keep my vote on HS while exploring what others thought of the slot. Is this accurate? If so, could you explain why?

[MortFeld]

Or is it that you think keeping my vote on HS while having second thoughts is Red! motivated? If this is the case, consider that I had been having second thoughts way earlier than the post I linked, essentially boiled down to - head says Red, gut says Green. This specifically is what I was trying to work out, am I still Red for not unvoting?

[MortFeld]

Awesome, at least you're not voting Creeps. Now, would be awesome if you could read the rest of the game and participate in a way that makes sense.

[MortFeld]

So either you had the obvtown read earlier or it just showed up
If you had it earlier then letting someone be close to a lynch w a townread on them while on their wagon is bad.
VOTE: Mort

Going to indulge this once more. If by bad you mean Red! motivated, is it still Red! motivated if HS had been at L-2 for a very long time with no foreshadowing of movement?

For an idea of where my head was really at, I did see HS' more recent posts as obvtown. This I had to weigh against the facts that HS 1. was on the bad TF wagon after TRing TF 2. tried a weird Creeps push with awful reasoning during the TF wagon after Creeps softclaimed and 3. Has made numerous references to PRs that look like PR hunting. Your push on me is so bad it's a joke, at least Naomi's came from a place of reading the game.

Pedit: I am definitely SRing you. You are Red and everybody should vote you immediately.

[MortFeld]

Missed a logical conclusion above. With those two competing ideas (which I had summarized as gut = Green vs head = Red), I see my not unvoting HS as completely reasonable. I'm wondering why you don't.

[MortFeld]

Wow. So here's what I said.

I did see HS' more recent posts as obvtown.

One of the few things I agree with you on is that HS has been obvtown posting.

And here's what you said.

Keep saying thatHS was obvtown but logically scummy bc its making a whole lot of sense

Tell me this isn't a misrep. It is completely consistent to say that HS has been obvtown posting, and also that HS' prior actions look Red. The conclusion if HS is green would be: HS made mistakes and has rebounded.

You are misrepping this and saying that I thought HS was obvtown the whole time. Even now I am struggling with the slot, but yours I am certain of.

[MortFeld]

You think Road vs me is TvT...

Let it be known that if a wagon picks up for any of these slots, I'd be on board for a lynch;
Kamelot, ArcAngel, Creeps

Can you explain why you think Road's part is town? To change from then to now I feel that Road must have done something real Green! motivated. Were Road, ArcAngel, and Creeps your Red! reads?

[MortFeld]

@Mort, Where did I say I was done catching up? Though I will say that RK town reading me so early is ??? Scum that knows I'm town? Maybe but then HS calling this a TvT could also be scum that knows you and RK are scum but then I see plenty of players that just call any long winded arguments TvT.

I didn't imply that you're done catching up! I assumed you were doing a readthrough and pointing out things that stood out.

Yeah, Road's saying you're town with such little information pinged me as Road maybe having prior information. If Road was Green they'd be willing to examine their logic for the read with me; instead, they accused me of misrepping and didn't answer my questions.

HS also called me vs Copper TvT, so the idea that they might just always say arguments are TvT is reasonable. What Copper and I had was an argument. What Road and I had was not - I questioned Road on certain things, and Road acted extremely defensive, answered what they could, avoided what they could not, and then attacked me. Arguments require reasoning aimed at a conclusion, traits that Road's posts lack unless their reasoning is 'heebie jeebys' and their conclusion is 'Mort is Red'. HS, if you're Green please reread the interaction, and if you still think Road is Green please explain.

[MortFeld]

I'd agree except Road is Red which means Naomi is either bussing or Green.

[MortFeld]

So either way I take no issue. Bring on the Road votes.

[MortFeld]

Road was who again?

Misa.

[MortFeld]

You're reluctant why? Because you want to lynch Wobbu instead?

[MortFeld]

What is a vanity wagon?

[MortFeld]

If I were in my computer I'd give you a more helpful guide nero. TF has an aversion to quoting.

[MortFeld]

Will be home in 30m

[MortFeld]

This reads TvT to me. Road could be scum but I don't see any way Mort could be scum.

I'm sorry, but saying a conversation looks TvT is meaningless if your read on one of the players is null-Red. Actually, saying a conversation is TvT makes other people want to disregard it as a pointless argument, which this is not. What is your actual read on Road beyond 'could be scum'? Do they look Green motivated to you?

One of the few things I agree with you on is that HS has been obvtown posting.

Read this from the perspective of another player. I understand that you were confused and torn on the vote, and still trying to sort my slot out. I saw that. Kamelot didn't. In her eyes, it's just you being on a wagon you read as obvtown. This is where the conversation slipped into argumentative accusations.

I had come up with a big argument to show why this is always a misreading from Road, it only makes ANY sense because Road hasn't read the thread, and that Road's trying to make this into a case is extremely forced - but then I realized that you are being purposefully obtuse here and I don't feel like engaging with it. The conversation did not slip into anything. Read the words without prejudging where each player is coming from. Hint - what type of faction would do this?

I'm still on board for a road lynch if it picks up steam.

So many levels of no. If you want a lynch, you have to vote for it. You are not in a position to sit back and say 'hmmm, which lynch do I like? Is it Road? Or is it ___?' Just that sentence should show why holding your vote until there's a wagon is Red! motivated.

Post 1153 isn't a misrep, because you've said that exact thing before many times. I'm assuming she read your iso and picked that up at this point, because she was strongly sring you.
It makes perfect sense that Kamelot wouldn't understand your mind and gut having two differing opinions-- Just read her sig. That should explain everything for you.

This one's especially good.

HS' first point

: 1153 isn't a misrep because I've said exactly that many times. Road

actually read my ISO

and discovered it.

HS, are you serious? It is a misrep. Road - Mort has been saying that HS is obvtown. Mort - HS has been making posts that look obvtown. You see the difference? And you see how one is a read, and the other is an observation about recent post content? And you see how Road is absolutely either wrong or misrepping? And you see how one leads to a vote and one leads to questions (such as - Mort, how do you actually feel about HS. Too bad Road didn't ask this and didn't believe/even read my answer)? And you see why a Red player would pick up on little town inconsistencies and disguise them in theory as actual Red behavior? Why on Earth would a Green player refuse to read the thread and decide to vote for me over this, instead of any of the other actual Red candidates? Don't forget they voted Toto and then asked us all to tell THEM why they voted Toto...

HS' second point

: Road's sig should show why they don't believe in a Green gut read and Red head read.

1. that head/gut stuff was a simplification of reasoning I actually explained 2. Road's sig has nothing to do with this situation. In the heat of passion I voted you and Red! read you. In the cold eye of logic, I Red! read you. The more recent struggle I am having was from your pre-Road posts and, while I said it was gut, it's actually logic. More accurate is that you did things that I think would more likely come from Green than Red. But post-Road I am quickly losing faith. It's also hilarious to say 'Of course Green! Road wouldn't understand your thing you said - even their sig explains why!' Why are you defending Road, who should be defending themselves, with reasoning that doesn't even come from the game?

Giving HS this last chance before I start looking at the game through a HS + Road = Red team lens.

Giving Road a chance to read the thread and come back with something that makes sense - if this happens I'll reconsider.

[MortFeld]

Long post because I want to believe there is any chance HS is Green, and if they are I need to convince them of Road.

[MortFeld]

I'm not being purposefully obtuse. I meant exactly what I said. You are voting somebody you've recently read as obvtown. I know why because I was here the whole time, and Kamelot wasn't. Ergo, she has a different perspective which paints you in a scum light. We agree, it only makes sense if Kamelot hadn't read the thread. That's kinda the point I was trying to make there. It's not a forced case, that's a pretty good scumread. Voting somebody you read as obvtown.
How is that purposefully obtuse?

I didn't read you as obvtown. Saying your recent posts look obvtown is not saying you're obvtown - it is very possible for Red to fake this.

I do see how this looks semantic, and how it resembles the Copper argument. But even if I drop everything relating to obvtown (and I disagree that we're arguing over the definition of a word), there's still a litany of Red action from Road -

• Voted Creeps explicitly as a reaction test, then later said it was not a reaction test
  Said my case against HS makes them town, when their argument was actually that the case is NAI
  Misrepped/misread Wobbu's conclusion, speaking for him in the process, about HS, while I was trying to dialogue with Wobbu and not with Road
  Green! read Nero with almost zero information
  Before Road had concrete stuff to justify a vote, they said I gave them the 'heeby jeebies' and declined to explain what this meant
  Voted Toto and said 'Guess why!' When I said, no, I'd rather see your reasons, they said 'no u tell me'

That being said, all of this is based on Road having limited information so I am hoping they will act pro-Green after they read. Also, HS is voting Road now so this is more for anyone else who thinks my entire case has to do with HS and obvtown stuff.

[MortFeld]

Or is it that you think keeping my vote on HS while having second thoughts is Red! motivated? If this is the case, consider that I had been having second thoughts way earlier than the post I linked, essentially boiled down to - head says Red, gut says Green. This specifically is what I was trying to work out, am I still Red for not unvoting?

Yeah tbh bc you just now said that HS was obvtown posting and unvoted
So either you had the obvtown read earlier or it just showed up
If you had it earlier then letting someone be close to a lynch w a townread on them while on their wagon is bad. And im not going to explain the scum motive there bc i should not have to lol
And if you just decided on the obvtown while it was wavering b4 then it comes back to deciding to solidify your HS townread after talking to your scumread

Its one thing to keep your vote on someone while pressuring them to read them better but thats not the situation youve described
VOTE: Mort

I don't quite understand what you're voting him here for. Is it for changing his mind about HS?

Road's argument:
-Either Mort believed that HS was obvtown while voting HS, or Mort suddenly changed his mind when Road said HS is obvtown.

• If Mort believed that HS was obvtown while voting HS, Mort voted a strong town read which is scum behavior
  If Mort suddenly changed his mind when Road said HS is obvtown, it means Mort took cues from one of his own scum reads, which makes it clear it's a fake read - scum behavior

-So, either way, Mort is scum

Issue is that neither of the two sides of the either/or are true.

[MortFeld]

That stuff only applies once it's day 2, right?

[MortFeld]

Doesn't that also mean that town can't really glean much from PRs while they're alive? Since scum can claim stuff too, and VTs will be "lying" without actual information.

And ok, I'm down to try that. It will basically just be the first post everyone makes on Day 2?

[MortFeld]

One issue I'm foreseeing, since I'm struggling to wrap my head around this and I consider myself pretty quick, is that there are (or were but still some) a lot of newer players in this game who might struggle with this idea.

I also don't see certain people doing this even if they're town but we'll see what they say.

[MortFeld]

Btw HS I didn't ask you to defend Road, I asked you to explain Green! reading them. There's a difference - giving an obscure Green motivation for Road's not believing I can have my read on you is speaking for Road. Had Road given a good reason, this might be cause for Green! reading them. Unless you consider that sig sufficient; I don't. What Road is doing is misrepping my read altogether (saying HS is obvtown but logically scum is not what I'm doing), and you're saying that is somehow explained by Road's sig.

[MortFeld]

You're not understanding. You said the argument was TvT. I asked you how Road's part looked town. Your explanation of that bit was not something that Road said. It cannot be a basis for saying Road's part looked town, because it was not part of what Road said. On top of this, you were supplying reasoning for Road - which, if Road is Red, is very convenient. You are justifying this by saying that I prompted you to explain your Green read, but because this reasoning may or may not be accurate, it cannot explain your Green read.

[MortFeld]

Sorry, I gave 2 reasons that Road's sig cannot be a basis for your Green read of Road. Er, I guess you don't have a Green read, you just think Road looks town in the argument? Gee, who knew that someone could say another player looks town in one place but still is scum.

[MortFeld]

I don't really know site meta relating to role claims. But what Shadow is trying to do is not a mass roleclaim, right? He's trying to get everyone to claim roles and targets, these claims not mattering until the people who make them die. So while PRs are going to claim what they actually did, they're also going to fakeclaim things they didn't do, and everyone else will do the same. Obviously only works if everyone agrees to do it.

[MortFeld]

Ok, I'll cede that then. If Road maintains the accusation after catching up, then I'll know it's Red! motivated. But I agree that there could be a Green! motivation therefore it's NAI.

[MortFeld]

It's not a sin if you have reasoning that makes sense. Which points exactly, btw?

[MortFeld]

Well yeah. Would have to be a pretty original reason.

[MortFeld]

Yeah, he wants everyone to basically claim 3 roles and 3 night actions, and when someone dies and is telling the truth we can see what they did, so they don't have to breadcrumb.

[MortFeld]

It's not a sin if you have reasoning that makes sense. Which points exactly, btw?

The part when you maintained your votes on HS even though you started doubting theory scuminess, after all L-2 ain't a random wagon, especially when it was held for this long.

How is believing there is a very good Red case on someone inconsistent with believing their more recent posts look Green?

[MortFeld]

For you to think that Road's case holds water, you must think that I was saying something more than "HS has been saying things that look town"

[MortFeld]

I already ceded that Road is not scummy for their accusation alone. It's all the other stuff.

Voted Creeps explicitly as a reaction test, then later said it was not a reaction test
Said my case against HS makes them town, when their argument was actually that the case is NAI
Misrepped/misread Wobbu's conclusion, speaking for him in the process, about HS, while I was trying to dialogue with Wobbu and not with Road
Green! read Nero with almost zero information
Before Road had concrete stuff to justify a vote, they said I gave them the 'heeby jeebies' and declined to explain what this meant
Voted Toto and said 'Guess why!' When I said, no, I'd rather see your reasons, they said 'no u tell me'

[MortFeld]

This combined with the fact that Misa looked Reddish and replaced out when pressure started mounting. What do you think?

[MortFeld]

It's just Green/Red applied to an element of gameplay. I'm getting used to the nomenclature and testing stuff. It feels weird to say things like "Green read" and "Red motivation." I am certain that capitalization is correct though.

I'll try to stop doing that if it's confusing.

[MortFeld]

The one place where I'll have to do it is with Green!Player I think, to discuss alignment hypotheticals.

[MortFeld]

That's L-2 btw.

[MortFeld]

Wobbu you've posted but I still don't know who you think is Green. I don't understand why this, of all things, should be like pulling teeth.

Have your Red reads changed from 1035? What do you think about Road?

[MortFeld]

I'm voting RK because I am way more sure they are Red than I am of HS.

@LUV - HS' reaction to my RK push makes me think they are both Red. But doesn't this mean we should flip RK first? If HS is Green, they might still react like that. I actually agree with HS that RK's reasons for the push on me are NAI, since there exists a plausible Green reason for them to misread. I don't like how HS called the argument TvT though, or the way HS seems to approach voting. But I feel these are things we should talk about tomorrow, after we kill RK.

@Toto - explain why so many wagons are bad for town? If I didn't push on RK we wouldn't have gotten 1. RK's awful response and 2. HS to react to RK. HS push has been much of the game's content. Result of the Creeps push is a lot of the reason I read him/Shadow Green.

I don't like the massclaim idea either.

It's not a massclaim. Everyone claims 3 roles and actions, one of which is your real role if you have one.

[MortFeld]

Are TB's actions inconsistent with what a very new and overwhelmed Green player might do? I think he is definitely very new and overwhelmed, and I know he was in 2 games at the time he requested a replacement. I'm not familiar with how newbscum act vs newbtown.

[MortFeld]

But the wagons so far have only forced one claim, and it's not a PR and that slot is probably Red. Too many wagons are bad if they force claims - if they just help sort alignment, many wagons are good, no?

[MortFeld]

This is more me just trying to work on my own playstyle, since this game I'm trying something I may or may not repeat in later games.

[MortFeld]

Given that Misa and Copper's replacements/slots are two of my top Red reads, I like that Nero focused on their interactions during RVS/early game.

Still waiting on more from Nero though.

The reason to "murderball" Arc, if this is something that should happen, would be the actions of her predecessor.

Pedit: made the same observation. HS, why did you vote Road? I didn't notice at the time of your vote because Road is Red, but you don't include a reason in 1205.

Pedit2: Nero, how far along are you in catching up?

[MortFeld]

On mobile, will give game - related response when I get home. This question is 50% for me in future games and 50% so I can get a better idea of what you meant by hereby newbies - in what ways does my play differ from the MS norm?

[MortFeld]

Heeby jeebies* lol

[MortFeld]

Road, what do you think about HS' vote on you? Read 1205. They spend the entire post justifying your play for you and then at the end they vote you.

[MortFeld]

Want to post but also want to wait.

UNVOTE: to prevent hammer.

[MortFeld]

Eh I can just post the vast majority of what I was going to now.

Re: Creeps reaction test,

@

Kamelot:

Why did you vote for Creeps after admitting that you haven't really read the thread? Why did you feel your reads were crap after attempting to reread?

I havent reread yet i was saying that i dont usually get good reads from rereading i need to talk to people not read after the fact
I voted for creeps bc i wanted to test what Mort said
was disappointed

After the third reread I realized I misread this as you trying to test my reaction, rather than trying to test that Creeps SRs people who vote him. Which frankly was thick-skulled on my part. Sorry for that.

Re: my playstyle,
This is only my second game on the site so I'm trying stuff out. I already learned a lot from this day but I think I'll continue playing this way for the rest of the game and see how it goes. I think it is yielding good results already. For a reference point, before I joined this game I read 3 of Thor's games and his wiki page. Not that I think I'm playing anything like Thor.

in my thoughts im including the possibility of HS making a mistake there

You've said that I don't seem to acknowledge that Green players can make mistakes, but HS has made so many mistakes that it's nearly unbelievable that they are Green. Here's a list:

Spoiler:

Asked Drone what he thought about something when Drone hadn't posted yet
Asked a large number of PR-related questions that looked like PR hunting
Explicitly TRd TwoFace but then voted them 'when the lynch looked inevitable'
During the TF policy lynch push, tried to make a weird push on Creeps instead after Creeps had softclaimed, saying 'he's a better policy lynch'
Voted you after saying that our argument looked TvT

Some of these have been explained and others are NAI, but they are all mistakes. I understand how you could read HS Green just looking at the tone of their recent posts, but can you understand why other Green players might read HS Red?

I don't like this wagon right now. Road isn't doing the 'I didn't read so I'm going to accuse someone for an immediate nitpicky reason' thing anymore, and looks to be trying to solve the game. We also have a lot of time.

[MortFeld]

Chaos is probably getting replaced.

[MortFeld]

Before you all jump on my for buddying Chaos like you did for Drone and is happening for Toto, I have faith because he pulled through in our last game and he's on the normal game review group.

Weird comment. Are you buddying Chaos?

[MortFeld]

I mean, obviously the answer is no. Why did you feel the need to make a pre-response like that?

[MortFeld]

I am wondering whether Wobbu's bad reads are because Wobbu is Red, because Wobbu is new, or because Wobbu isn't reading. Which is it, Wobbu?

[MortFeld]

Your reads are bad, Wobbu.

You seem pretty green to me. Everyone else, except for the ones I mentioned in my SRs post I'm not too sure about. Mostly because a lot of them haven't been too active.

People not mentioned with enough posts for you to form a read, in no particular order: LUV, Naomi, Toto, TwoFace, Drone. So your thoughts on them would be a start.

Yeah, they have changed since then. I feel that HS is more likely town now. Their scumhunting when they were at L-2 feels green motivated to me.

What scumhunting?

Also, the TB slot seems even more scummy. The fact that their replacement has been mostly lurking hasn't helped.

You had X read of TB. TB's replacement has made a few posts but has been absent the last two days. 1. is this lurking? 2. what do you think about Road saying Arcangel always lurks?

So the question is, why does this change your read of TB's slot to become more Red?

I don't particularly like Road Kamelot's reasons for lynching Mort. I feel like they were deliberately trying to for a lynch on him. I'm not going to decide on whether or not I'll vote them until we have a claim though.

Are you aware that Road is not at L-1 anymore? Why not vote now and put them at L-1? And have you read the posts where Road retracts their vote and explains why they played the way they did?

[MortFeld]

Ok, you'd be putting Road at L-2 now. Sort of wish HS had kept their vote on Road, but it's not a big deal.

[MortFeld]

Question stands with "Why not vote now and put them at L-2?"

[MortFeld]

I want to see Drone's response to 1276.

[MortFeld]

As in, a real response to the question asked, instead of a platitude.

[MortFeld]

TB's play was awful but I'm not sure it came from a Red place, for reasons.

[MortFeld]

Drone - you're on the wagon because wagoning day 1 is crucial for investigation and reading? Or did you have another reason?

[MortFeld]

That plus other reasons.

[MortFeld]

Finally a wagon I can completely get behind.

VOTE: ArcAngel

Why not start the wagon?

[MortFeld]

Ok. I think this wagon is dumb when the predecessor's actions are NAI and the replacement is explicitly catching up - though I will say that their reads are odd after 20 pages (town: Naomi, Creeps; scum: TF null: everyone else). I'll hold out with the assumption that they are still reading and plan to participate.

[MortFeld]

And yes, I know I said that TB's actions were Reddish before. Especially after the replacement and for other reasons I've changed my mind.

[MortFeld]

Besides being new what are these other reasons?

TB has demonstrated this game that they do not know what constitutes a read, and the majority of suspicion on them surrounds the way they approach their reads. While this could be indicative of Red play it could also be indicative of very misguided Green play, and I believe the chances of each are roughly equal, so I believe the current case to be NAI.

Why do you think we shouldn't vote Angel while she catches up?

If the case against TB is NAI, and Angel is catching up, I don't see a reason to vote Angel.

Pedit: maybe I'm completely mired in the WIFOM here. Help me get to where you are.

[MortFeld]

I am increasingly getting the feeling that Wobbu wants to completely avoid talking to me. This feels like the umpteenth time they disappear in the middle of a dialogue. Last time this happened I had to bring my question up 3 times while they were active for them to respond.

[MortFeld]

Sorry, that was stream of consciousness because it's 1:00 a.m. I was thinking about who's Red if not Road or HS, and it's probably Wobbu. Well it's probably Drone, but I want to talk with Drone first.

[MortFeld]

Why is the fact that wagoning day 1 is crucial for investigation and reading a reason to wagon Road in particular?

What didn't you like about the Creeps vote?

[MortFeld]

Ok, I'm glad I aware of all those points. Tomorrow I'll paint the picture of Green!TB and see how much sense it makes. Right now I'm going to sleep.

[MortFeld]

Why didn't I like the vote on Creeps? Do we need to return to my reads on Creeps which turns out I had people agreeing with me on them?
The core on Creeps was utterly unnecessary, and I don't see town motivation behind it.

So we have some background facts that both of us can agree on:
-Creeps is probably town
-Road did not read the thread
-Road's reason for voting Creeps was for fun and to see if Creeps would then OMGUS Road, as I said he's prone to
So it's not intent to lynch, or even desire to start a wagon.
Red!Road - is parking vote on person who isn't active and giving dumb reason for it
Green!Road - is having fun and starting conversation. Presumably, Drone might have said, 'I strongly TR Creeps so why are you voting for them?' Which would have helped Road get a feel for the game, almost like reading would.

So tell me: how is her Creeps vote alignment indicative?

That all being said, I don't know why Road is still voting me.

[MortFeld]

It's not necessary for me to give a picture Green!TB. We'll just say that Green!TB is possible and that as Red or Green, TB was in over their head this game.

I'm definitely stuck in this nebulous world where the game looks very different after various flips but I'm not sure who is more likely to be Red.

Sure, let's do this. VOTE: Arcangel. Why HS?

[MortFeld]

Nah, this is the wrong place to look. It's either HS/Road or Drone. Pretty sure of it.

UNVOTE:

[MortFeld]

I am annoyed that when accused of going with the flow, Drone said

But I am going with the flow, wagoning on day 1 is crucial for investigation and reading.

This doesn't make sense. You're a useless Green player if you're just going to let other people make cases and hop on a wagon when it's big enough. But this is something Red players are more likely to do. I asked

Why is the fact that wagoning day 1 is crucial for investigation and reading a reason to wagon Road in particular?

tongue in cheek because it should be quite clear that it's not a reason to wagon Road in particular. You were justifying your vote on Road with general theory that applies to all votes.

Drone, what do you think about the Arc wagon? Answers not accepted: "Road/HS are better lynches."

[MortFeld]

Case on Drone is limited to interactions regarding Road atm. If Road is Green, I think Drone is Red. I am not sure that Road is Green.

I didn't deflect the question, Kamelot.

You did deflect. Road asked what you realized you missed between when you said you thought Road had a point, and when you voted Road. You answered only a part of that post in 1300, saying that Road's lynch is not inevitable. You ignored the more important question.

Then we have

All I got from that one is "I'm suspicious of Drone's vote".
Which is fine, but I said why I'm on the wagon.

Where you say you gave a reason for being on the wagon, but your reason supports you being on

a

wagon, not Road's specifically.

Now you're backtracking and saying that Road isn't a good lynch.

Something something, seems to me like Mort's looking for something to kill.

Something something, Red players have vested interest in discrediting Green players.

[MortFeld]

Everyone should do a search of Drone's ISO for TB.

[MortFeld]

What I was saying is a little more nuanced than that, but it's not super important. What I'm seeing against TB is bad reasoning, sheeping, and inactivity, which look like newbie behaviors as much as Red behaviors.

I do think Drone + TB is a possibility but I'd want to flip Drone first.

HS, if you want I can give you my writeup for how TB could be Green.

Spoiler: a look into the Green!TB possibility.

The way TB posts early in the game reads manufactured to me. Dishonest. This is a gut feel, but it's definitely enforcing my reasoning.

TB has joined their first non-newbie game and wants to make a good impression on the experienced players

169 echoes what Uzi had already said and gotten away with, without actually adding anything to the table. The scum motivation is that this is an easy way for her to look like she's contributing information and scumhunting without actually doing either of those. She then makes an empty jab at Creeps, which I've already talked about. Creeps' posting was obviously a mess. Poking holes in it is what town had already been doing the entire time, again, TB knows that this won't draw suspicion because it's already been done before. This is an easy way for her to look like she's scumhunting, again, when really she's just poking holes in swiss cheese.

TB says the same thing as Uzi in agreement, not realizing he can just say "I agree with that thing Uzi said." Asking why Creeps was afraid of posting is not an empty jab, it is an honest question aimed at understanding why Creeps plays the way he does.

In 180 TB does similar. They reflect upon to town something that is obviously correct and cannot be argued (Mislynches are bad) and mirrors the perspective Naomi took in 134, for which Naomi caught no flak. They then make an empty jab at Mort's preceding post, despite him explaining his reasoning in that very post. Something important here-- one of TB's reasonings for voting Misa is post 77, on which she comments. But this post came from eons ago, from before TB was even in the game. They only decided to comment on it when they were asked to explain their vote, which came later. Translation: TB only formulated an opinion on why she votes Misa after she was asked to, and when she does, she mirrors the 'safe' perspective Naomi already mentioned. The scum motivation for voting Misa in the first place was that town viewed the slot as generally scummy, and it was a very safe vote to make, along with Creeps, who was her other target at the time.

Brand newbie TB believes a misrep of theory might be Red motivated, doesn't understand that neither Green nor Red will tend to misrep theory. Asking why I voted Copper is not an empty jab if TB doesn't think I gave a reason, so he must have not understood that I had given a reason already. When I said I already gave my reasoning, he asked for a reference post, showing he literally didn't understand what I said when I voted Copper. The Reddish parts of the Misa vote are 1. that it's safe and 2. that part of TB's reasoning was something that TB didn't comment on at the time it happened. 1. if TB is incapable of understanding what makes someone Red or Green, as TB professed to, TB cannot do anything but make safe plays by sheeping reasoning. 2. TB wanted their vote to look good so they came up with a reason after the fact. TB's in-game personality is wanting to please.

207
Notice that TB townreads the two people whose perspective they pilfered before.
Beyond that, she mirrors the perspective of TwoFace and Mort before her, wondering about the Drone question. Again, a perspective that has shown to be non-combative in the thread. Then she calls for activity of people who have been inactive. Really safe play, nobody can argue that we want those people to post more.

Already explained why Green!TB will mirror perspectives and play safe. Not having consistent internal reads is bad play but does TB really read like someone who is blasé toward solving the game? Sounds more like TB feels bad they can't help. The only reason TB's reads list would be Red play is if it indicated that TB was not trying to game solve. Lack of knowledge how =/= lack of trying.

They jumped on the Copper wagon without explaining why, only explaining later when they were asked to. As Copper has pointed out, one of the three people who opportunistically jumped on his wagon is very likely scum, and I'm willing to put a lot of faith int hat claim. Mort and TF both read obvtown to me, which leaves TB, whose vote is the least well justified anyway.

As I explained in post 845, TB agreed with Copper on the lynchbait discussion, and then later decided to vote Copper for his part in the lynchbait discussion. Furthermore, as Mort has pointed out, their reasoning to vote Copper came about 15 posts after they voted Copper. Translation: TB only had to decide on why they thought Copper was scum after they were asked to.

Why should Copper's OMGUSing people on his wagon be reason for you to suspect TB? Is this really reasonable POE?
And Green!TB might have jumped on the wagon for the same reason as usual (it's a wagon that exists and other people vote in this game) and when pressed for a reason, gave one that made sense to him when asked, not the one he had when he voted, for the reason that other people give reasons in this game. He's trying to learn how to play.

The final point is that, like I said in post 845, newbies replace out of scum slots more often because they get overwhelmed and don't know what to do. What does it look like happened to TB?

It looks like he got overwhelmed and didn't know what to do, yes. Red players lynch Green players more often than the reverse. Does that mean that any time someone lynches a Green player, they are Red? This is the same form as your logic. There is another plausible explanation for TB replacing out, which is that he has no idea how to play the game and believed his continuing was casting a bad light on his slot, a town slot.

This is my logic laid bare. If you can't agree with me, help me understand why not.

If you ignore everything else, two questions: Why should Copper's OMGUSing people on his wagon be reason for you to suspect TB? Is TF's and my townieness really reasonable POE? and: Not having consistent internal reads is bad play but does TB really read like someone who is blasé toward solving the game? Sounds more like TB feels bad they can't help. The only reason TB's reads list would be Red play is if it indicated that TB was not trying to game solve. Lack of knowledge how =/= lack of trying.

[MortFeld]

Oh, I cut out where you mention the Red slip. It could just as well be a Green slip - saying TB remaining is unfair for the game players, and also for town implies that TB is town. I don't think this means he is definitely town, but it proves the comment was NAI.

[MortFeld]

Well let's make believe then. Say we lynch Arc and they flip Green. What happens then? Are we moving forward or are we in the same place as today?

[MortFeld]

My SRs are conditional on flips and I'm struggling to figure out which of them I think are more Red. This is part of that process.

[MortFeld]

I think TB is an easy target, is settling, and I voice my dissent. I wasn't saying that Arc flipping Green isn't useful at all, just that it's less useful than you or Road flipping Green. You're saying that it's basically the baseline utility of any Green lynch - some people on it are probably Red. This implies that this is the best utility you think we can possibly get from a lynch, since you're on this wagon.

Until Drone or Wobbu come back I will probably be taking a backseat and seeing what other people do. One of the bad aspects of my play so far is clutter, evidenced by 55 pages this DP.

Pedit: but I've laid it out clearly. We lynch Drone if you and Road are Green.

[MortFeld]

Not that it will take both of you flipping, if one is Green the other is most likely also Green, though I'm more sure of Green!HS -> Green!Road than I am of Green!Road -> Green!HS.

[MortFeld]

Interjecting to say that posts like that are just TF. Thought he was toning it down after he almost got PLd but I guess not.

[MortFeld]

Why doesnt it make sense to judge Arcs alignment by thinkbigs play?? what am i missing here uzi

He never said this.

[MortFeld]

Why doesnt it make sense to judge Arcs alignment by thinkbigs play?? what am i missing here uzi

He never said this.

I guess I stand corrected, he is saying this. I agree that it's silly to press Arc on things TB did, and equally silly for Arc to defend against these things. But when we're trying to sort the slot, shouldn't TB's actions matter? Though I personally think TB's actions are NAI, others have a different interpretation.

[MortFeld]

@Nero have you read the TF policy lynch stuff yet?

@LUV Ok fair enough.

I'm probably not going to vote or even think about a vote until tomorrow. Some things I've read have pinged me but I want to see how this conversation plays out.

[MortFeld]

When Wobbu gets a chance I'd also like to continue the conversation from 1294.

[MortFeld]

Going to use town/scum for the remainder of this game until I can research Red/Green more.

Chaos didn't lurk in 1833, as a very good townie.

People reading Shadow town - this is dumb. So far catching up and reading ISOs I've only seen HS do this, but this is bad. Shadow should be null-null scum, Creeps himself should be null town. If you still read Shadow town, separate from his slot, you need to explain.

Drone explained his Road vote with "I don't like that she voted Creeps" and then said she should have unvoted when I told her Creeps softclaimed. Why didn't he point this out when I asked originally? Makes me think he went digging for reasoning when pressed.

Uh, hello? Drone voted HS because of the whole PR hunting thing, one section of which was where TF softclaimed. How could he use that as justification to vote HS, but not know TF softclaimed?

Ok, so Drone actually didn't know. Which means he voted HS on the mere suggestion from Toto that HS was PR hunting and didn't fact check. This is scummy. Or, he forgot, which means he's as useless as any other useless player.

Wobbu is scummy because he voted TF for an actual reason (an awful one) during the TF PL train. He also misreps often, with a litany of weird comments about TF and the one about Naomi. He also continuously avoids discussion and doesn't have reasonable reads. Don't know if I forgot other stuff, not going to do that work right now.

I thought the TF PL train was opportunistic. Now Drone is saying 'We lynch TF or I'm done.' Uh, dude, we're not lynching TF today. Pick someone else. In the absence of anyone else, doesn't this look like scum sitting out?

Chaos, why are you against an HS lynch?

Chaos, Road's bad pushes are a direct result of her not being able to catch up, if that helps at all.

HAHAHA this Chaos push. Angry circlejerk into vote an inactive guy. I don't even know what to make of this and there's probably exactly one scum among HS, Arc, and TF. I'm not voting Chaos right now.

VOTE: Drone

Also fine with the HS wagon if that's where we end up.

[MortFeld]

Reason I'm pretty sure TF is town is that I agree with him on like, almost everything.

[MortFeld]

I read shadow town because there's no way scum would replace in and suggest his hypoplay idea.

Really really really good point on Drone.
I know this looks scummy but I'm jumping straight on this.
VOTE: Drone

Dude.

That

convinced you to go from null to top scumread? How?

[MortFeld]

I read shadow town because there's no way scum would replace in and suggest his hypoplay idea.

Of course scum might suggest the hypoplay idea. We have no idea whether it's actually good for town or not. He wants to use this game as an experiment and his hypothesis is that it's good for town. Why wouldn't scum suggest this, especially in the absence of real gameplay? That's a bad reason to TR Shadow.

[MortFeld]

it's really really bad on Drone's part.

This is an exaggeration. It's bad play and scummy but it's not terrible.

I didn't have any other scumreads

This is bad. This should not be the case. I understand that the game is very long and how this makes it easy for scum to hide, but you have so many TRs that PoE should definitely get you somewhere close to SRs.

Pedit: you're wrong. Toto and I wanted to unvote after your claim, Drone stayed on because of the PR hunting stuff as you can see in 868 and 870.

All it took for you to unvote was that? And why are you even voting Chaos? That wagon is like, megadumb.

Good lord, you're not sure whether to press me for the 'misrep.' Why not? If it's actually a misrep, isn't that scummy?

Lynch this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: HS

[MortFeld]

I'm not taking a stance regarding Shadow's hypoplay. I already said I'm willing to try it. The point I was making is that you TRd Shadow, and justified it by saying that scum would have no reason to introduce the hypoplay idea, which is just not true.

Plus, suggesting something like this, creating something, trying to move the game forward isn't scum motivated. I think scumShadow would have just slipped into the game being as inconspicuous as possible. Instead he put all this effort in to try and get everybody onboard with his theorycraft.

How does suggesting something that only matters day 2 push the game forward? I actually see Shadow as stalling the game right now, by posting only things that have nothing to do with the current game state.

I'd read Chaos null to very slight town if he contributed more. Because of severe lack of information (he's not commented on most things that have happened) I'm null on Chaos. His early game ISO looks good. Aside from Road, his current lynch pool looks reasonable, if a little... weak? A lot of how I view Chaos will come from why he doesn't want to lynch you.

[MortFeld]

At the time of your question Chaos I view Arc similarly to how I view TF, in that they are distracting and their posts are confusing, except I disagree with a lot of the content Arc does have. Let me do a more detailed chronological analysis. Wall spoilered.

Spoiler: PBPA of Arc

1330 is weird.

Scum found. Good job trying to divert your wagon on me?

VOTE: Human Sequencer

Is this a reaction test? It definitely just looks like Arc votes HS because HS votes Arc.

1333 acknowledges that they are supporting a wagon started by their one scum read. Possibly a little self-conscious.

1384 is all kinds of weird. This is where Arc brings in the idea that HS is scum because HS has no case on Arc. Arc doesn't understand that the case is based on TB? Also misreads HS' post about what happens if Arc flips town, I think.

And how sure are you to indicate those who support my wagon seems least scummiest it to you? So you know for sure mafia dont want to push my wagon if i am town? See that's very contradicting of yourself

HS was saying that in the even that Arc is lynched and flips town, HS will see who on the Arc wagon was scummiest. I don't even know what Arc thought HS meant. Super aggressive comment.

1385 throwing shade at TF again. Seems to be a pattern of saying TF is scummy without providing reasoning.

1389 another weird misreading of a post. Even if Arc thought Nero said "

Why

do you want to lynch Angel, twoface?" instead of "Who," why would Arc even engage with a question directed at TF? And Nero hasn't even scumread TF. Such a headscratch post from Arc.

1398 Nero clarifies what he asked, which was clear to begin with, and Arc still doesn't understand and still doesn't answer. Though I will admit that it's an odd question from Nero, since Arc obviously wants to lynch HS.

Also, this whole misrep thing with TF. This is hard to read because they are both bad at representing their respective viewpoints. So it's objectively true that Arc misrepped TF jumping on wagons willy nilly, since TF didn't do that. Arc calling TF defensive in 1398 for asking Arc to explain is a bad look.

1416 wtf, why is Arc trying to defend TB? I already gave a very plausible reading of TB as town, and even if Arc missed that, what's the point? You don't become town by convincing people your predecessor's actions were NAI. Arc also says that productivity isn't indicative of alignment which just isn't true. Post count isn't indicative, content/productivity is.

1481 oh.

I like Arc more than I liked TB to be honest. But maybe that's just because they don't like HS.

Arc, can you summarize your case for TwoFace? Why are you scum reading him? do you have any townreads?

Did you try ISO me? I have been pointing my finger at him since my initial catch up post. Although my initial reads were not strong but the way he has created options to hop into my wagon seems suspicious. I could be wrong but the way he wanted to dominate the argument verbally seems unfair but am glad it has happened because i do see his aggression genuine but at this moment, I am two minds about his slot.

This looks like Arc's SR of TF might have been planned. They never gave a reason for SRing TF while catching up, and now the reason for SRing TF is that TF is pushing Arc? It's weird. Honestly, if I put myself in the mind of town!Arc, the main reason I SR TF is that he's a dick. That+OMGUS is not a reason to SR someone.

VOTE: Unvote

What? Why? What changed regarding HS?

1485 is hilarious. Arc asks TF to be clearer, when Arc's comment is one of the most unclear things I've seen this game. This is part of a pattern of Arc not understanding what I see as fairly clear posts.

1510 calls the case on HS wrong. Why? Wrong because... HS is town? Or wrong because it is a poorly reasoned case? Also, TF is suddenly town along with HS. Why?

1511 through 1523 are all fluff. Nothingness. Bad questions in a pointless conversation.

1526 starts this weird suspicion of Chaos.

1535 continues the Chaos question, to HS of all people who was Arc's SR but who is suddenly not a SR for whatever reason.

1539 shows an utter lack of understanding of why HS is scum for the policy lynch stuff.

1542 dumb. Vote Chaos to convince him to answer your question? Wtf is that

1558 ok this is just bad. You jumped into the game by accusing HS. Before then the wagon was stalled anyway.

1555 just noticed this. Why are you comparing Copper/Wobbu to Chaos? Their parts in the game are completely different.

This actually might be scum. Seems to plan TF suspicion, originally based on nothing, then later based on OMGUS and TF's arrogance, so still nothing. Does misrep/lie that TF has been hopping on wagons. Then suddenly, TF is angry town. Accuses HS, then slowly comes to believe that HS is town, yet doesn't even understand why the wagon on HS exists. Also has no reason to believe HS is town from the HS+TF+Arc discussion. Chaos push is bad and based on nothing.

So there's no justification for any of Arc's reads. The whole discussion with TF and HS somehow started with both being scum and ended with both being town, and HS+Arc voting Chaos. Makes me think HS+Arc is pretty reasonable, despite HS' weird push of Arc on grounds of TB's actions.

[MortFeld]

Why is Arc town?

[MortFeld]

Did you read my PBPA or at least my summary of it?

[MortFeld]

Arc seems like she was genuinely mediating between two people and trying to move the game forward which is a town attitude.

Huh? This isn't right. Arc was the one who thought TF was scum, not HS. Who was Arc mediating between? The dumb argument was between Arc and TF.

[MortFeld]

Toto why did you vote Chaos to begin with?

[MortFeld]

Mort. Thoughts on the 180 by chaos and the vote by uzi.

180 by Chaos: could actually be a reaction test? Two thoughts I had were: HS really did seem to be buddying Chaos, and Chaos might have seen this

A lot of how I view Chaos will come from why he doesn't want to lynch you.

and made up the reaction test justification, but I buy that he was trying to see if HS would buddy him again because 1. that's what HS actually did and 2. his reaction to HS in general mirrors mine.

Vote by LUV: not really sure where he's coming from. It actually looks like 838 where he just says he's fine with the HS wagon and votes HS. Why not vote HS earlier, like, why did it take me starting up the wagon again? Weird.

[MortFeld]

After hearing from Chaos I'm going to UNVOTE: Chaos for now.

You were voting him just to get him to talk??? Do you see how ridiculous that is? If he's town, he's going to talk anyway, voting him is pointless. If he's scum, why would his talking make you unvote? The things he says will be scum things. I'm going crazy over this awful wagon.

[MortFeld]

Yes I voted Chaos to get him to talk and move the game forward.

Ok I want to work this out because I see people say this on other forums and I think it is very dumb.

The only reason that being voted serves as incentive for a quiet person to talk is if they are lurking on purpose.

If they're town, they would not be lurking on purpose, so you voting them doesn't do anything. They'll post when they can.
If they're scum, then what do you learn from them talking? How does the thing that scum says help move the game forward? Unless the things they say are scummy, but you unvoted Chaos.

Anyway, this isn't as important as you responding to 1594. You said that you saw Arc as mediating between two people, which is a town thing to do. Who was Arc mediating between.?

[MortFeld]

Cool, thanks. I didn't go back far enough in your ISO.

[MortFeld]

Anyway, this isn't as important as you responding to 1594.

You said that you saw Arc as mediating between two people, which is a town thing to do. Who was Arc mediating between.?

They were mediating between 2F and HS earlier. Also the way they are talking to 2F seems pro-town to me. The mediation between HS and TF could have been a ploy to get votes of HS, but HS really wanted to kill TB/Arc earlier, again I think it would be too early to bus so aggressively. If HS is partner with Chaos or Arc then they would be playing very badly.

This is wrong. You did not read the interaction. Arc and TF were arguing, HS was not arguing with TF. Your town read on Toto is based on what?

[MortFeld]

Your town read on Arc is based on what?*

[MortFeld]

Explain how the way Arc talked to TF is pro-town, please. Specifically where Arc said that TF was jumping on wagons willy-nilly when that is not a thing that TF did.

[MortFeld]

Dude, no. Read the argument from start to finish and tell me that you still think that's genuine. That entire post was part of Arc trying to sidetrack the HS wagon by showing why one reason for it (which was misinterpreted) was not accurate. Also, Arc had been SRing both TF and HS for most of the discussion, that post was part of where they suddenly let go of it. Seeing Arc as a mediator is you taking one post completely out of context.

[MortFeld]

Is there a reason you're holding your vote btw?

[MortFeld]

Like holy crap in light of the fact that this was in the middle of the switch to Chaos, "be smarter and better and shift your focus to someone else for a change and see if it changes the way game is moving on" is so manipulative.

Also, the game looked the way it did because of Arc, not because of TF and HS. Toto, after you reread please tell me you agree.

[MortFeld]

Your town read on Toto is based on what?

Did you mean 2F?

Your town read on Arc is based on what?*

Can you answer 1606 please and also reread the discussion so you stop acting on premises that aren't true.

[MortFeld]

That's literally a point I made in my PBPA that you didn't read

[MortFeld]

Jesus, it's not even a point, it is a recounting of events that happened.

[MortFeld]

I mean to be fair, it gets hard when the DP is 65 pages so far but that is probably 50% a result of people not reading.

[MortFeld]

It's mostly because how easily she can get caught at night if she is scum.
If she is seen moving at night we know she was lying and we can lynch her.
So basically if she is scum, she won't do the kill or use a PR is she has one.

This is assuming that we even have a tracking PR? If we had another significant scum case I might consider this but as this game stands I'd rather just lynch the person I think most likely to be scum.

And I don't have any significant scum reads, I have what I feel though. And I feel like Mort's becoming more and more aggressive, not in a towny way.

Can you explain what you mean by this? In what way am I becoming

more

aggressive? It is also annoying to see this plus

Misa and Mort both feel scum to me, the worst part is that they are on the same level.

VOTE: Mort

Mort is town and I'm becoming more and more certain of it,

Btw, is it a sin if I find Kamelot's points on Mort pretty legit?

Something something, seems to me like Mort's looking for something to kill.

Your read on me has fluctuated a lot. I don't think I've actually become more aggressive than usual, unless your reference point is yourself, so I don't know why you're throwing shade again.

[MortFeld]

If I'm looking more aggressive it's because I just want this day to be over.

[MortFeld]

If HS is town, then Drone and Road are likely town.

Does the reading of Arc+HS+TF only make sense if Arc is protecting HS? Like, I think scum!Arc could still have been trying to work on two townies.

I don't see why Chaos looks so bad from 1582. Like, you did react pretty much the way he described and it looks bad. Obviously if you're lynched and flip town that's a place we can look.

I don't really feel like seeing HS hammered here when Arc and Nero are still absent.

UNVOTE:

[MortFeld]

Actually I don't know about Drone. I don't take his opposition to the wagon as towniness even if HS is town. I retract that.

[MortFeld]

Can someone explain why I'm at a loss if HS is town? My scum pool is like 7 people. Is this just because of the replacements or is there another reason this game feels so bad?

Pedit: you literally were absent, at the time HS was at L-1 you hadn't posted in a while/responded to Toto's condensed question. The word absent does not have negative connotations, unlike the word lurking which I didn't use.

[MortFeld]

Can someone explain why I'm at a loss if HS is town? My scum pool is like 7 people. Is this just because of the replacements or is there another reason this game feels so bad?

Pedit: you literally were absent, at the time HS was at L-1 you hadn't posted in a while/responded to Toto's condensed question. The word absent does not have negative connotations, unlike the word lurking which I didn't use.

Didn't you read my previous post. I am busy. I wasn't around when HS was at L1 and even he is at L1 now, I wont hammer it because I no longer feel he is scum. Follow my conversations with HS & TF. I see things differently after long talk with them.

I don't dispute that you were busy, nor did I ask why you didn't hammer. What are you responding to? Here's the quote

I don't really feel like seeing HS hammered here when Arc and Nero are still absent.

I see literally no reason why you'd feel the need to defend. This isn't even directly about you, the point was that I think there's reason for the day to continue (i.e. for me to unvote HS) because you and Nero have more to say. Also because HS is probably town.

[MortFeld]

HS is not at L-1 right now btw.

[MortFeld]

Follow my conversations with HS & TF. I see things differently after long talk with them.

How exactly did this happen? What changed from the time you SRd both of them to the time you TRd both of them?

[MortFeld]

@Mort-Whats your read on Choas?

Not sure about Chaos. 1479 as a reaction test is plausible, but what I've been wondering is this - there's already enough stuff on HS, why would you need to manufacture more with that kind of reaction test? Almost like Chaos felt like he needed a super original reason to vote HS, so he set up a trap. Looks overly self-aware, that kind of reasoning isn't necessary to justify an HS vote. This is assuming HS is town obviously, I have a hard time seeing Chaos as scum if HS is scum.

Also Chaos is not playing anything like he did in 1833 where he was good town nighkilled night 1, and apparently is playing like he did as scum in the newbie with HS.

Issue with the scum!Chaos theory is the awful wagon on Chaos starting from 1526, then 1542 1544 and 1561. It's so gross that I struggle to see how it couldn't be scum motivated, and why would scum bring attention to a scum buddy like that? Obviously doesn't rule out scum!Chaos by any means but it makes me second guess.

VOTE: Arc

I like my vote here until I'm satisfied with how Arc explains both the breadcrumbed suspicion into wagon on Chaos and how she magically went from scumreading HS and TF to townreading them. Interesting how having inconsistent reads is a trait shared by both Arc and TB.

[MortFeld]

You said that you saw Arc as mediating between two people, which is a town thing to do.

Not really. Its alot like scum knowing its a TvT fight and calling it TvT.

I'm not making a judgment here until I hear Arc's explanation. The quote from me is out of context though, I don't think mediating is an especially townie thing to do but I was trying to explore Toto's townread of Arc, which itself was out of context. Mediating between two former (former as of like, 100 posts) scum reads is especially odd behavior from a townie.

[MortFeld]

Have you read the Arc/HS/TF discussion, Road?

[MortFeld]

Uzi's content has been pretty consistant imo and definately looks like game solving which is very much a townie trait.

Actually, I think that scum try way hard to stay consistent while town just scum hunt

I've had a theory resulting in some combination of Shadow, rb/Wobbu, Nero, LUV, Naomi, and Chaos scum. The fact that this is viable, since none of these people have taken a particularly active role in the game, is so frustrating. For LUV's part though his posts just sound town and have since the beginning, so he is a very good actor if scum.

vote: RK

discuss!

Not going to object. Vote on me was bad, 1238 gives some additional reasons. Town!RK didn't read the thread and found the first suspicious thing they could from their interactions. Scum!RK didn't read the thread and used that as an excuse to make a bad push. 1266 reads town-ish but I also just realized they didn't really respond to anything specifically in my 1238, they just said "i often use hyperbole to underline my points" which doesn't really relate to anything I said.

It's worth noting that had we lynched RK, we wouldn't have gotten Arc's contribution which I think will be a good reference point in the future.

But yeah, we need a lynch. I really am not feeling HS. I had a game on a different forum where I was town and played super poorly, and HS' posts after both wagons read so much like mine.

[MortFeld]

People on the Chaos wagon: Shadow, HS - join me on Arc? Arc flip flopped completely on HS and TF, and took this weird mediating role with them at the end saying 'you are both mad townies! Let's just move on.' As LUV pointed out, looks like prior knowledge. Arc also started the terribad Chaos push. I'm still waiting for Arc to engage these points.

Can someone explain the Chaos wagon's origins? How does it make any sense at all to say "TALK OR YOU DIE"? Like aaaaaaa it's driving me completely crazy. It's such a dumb reason for a wagon and now look! 3 votes on Chaos still, one of whom is Arc who started the wagon. Not saying that there aren't good reasons to vote Chaos but mayyyybe only HS has them, the others are bad reasons. It's a really good wagon for scum to sit on and stall out the day, if Chaos is town.

Forgot to mention in post above - scum!RK is probably more likely, to sort out the WIFOM.

[MortFeld]

so buffet flakes out of the game but is still active on site... interesting

Reminds me somewhat of Malachite in 1833.

[MortFeld]

As I said, I only have issues with the Chaos wagon's origins, not with the wagon's existence.

Fine, it already has a base. VOTE: Chaos

Vote with me TF and end this awful DP. Nero and Chaos, if they are town, are probably struggling because we're nearing 2k posts in one DP.

[MortFeld]

People randomly jumping on the chaos wagon is giving me the heeby jeebies, even if I townread most of them.

It really shouldn't. Dude. Chaos is the current alternative to your lynch. Like, we have 3 days and I highly highly doubt we'll reach a real consensus. If we do? Great! I'm just not there right now. I really think it's not even scum's doing, it's the fact that we have 6 replacements. Perhaps there's some leeway between Chaos, Arc, and Road, I chose Chaos because we need

a

lynch and his wagon already has a backbone. Very open to discussing, i.e. would like to see how Chaos responds to you and how Arc responds to me.

What does the blacked out part say?

why do we always end up fighting -_-

[MortFeld]

Mort, I feel you're compromising here because you don't think Arc will get back to you in time with an answer and/or won't answer you.

Accurate. I mean, the question itself is a little silly, like, 'explain this scummy thing you did in a way that isn't scummy.' I'm probably going to get poor reasoning and WIFOM back regardless of alignment.

[MortFeld]

I also don't buy that he was setting a trap. Now if he has a history of doing that in other games, i'll reconsider but setting a trap to catch scum seems like bullshit to me. Besides I highly doubt that is an effective way of catching scum because reaction tests almost never seem to work out as planned in my experience.

When I suggested he was setting a trap, I suggested he was doing this as scum. I just don't see why town!Chaos would

suspect

HS of being scum but need more info. Like, the info is already there. I was suggesting that scum!Chaos might feel the need to come up with original information so his vote isn't looked at once HS flips green, and with that motivation he'd set up a trap.

[MortFeld]

Hence, I was trying to help HS and TF to see each other in a different perspective as TF was stuck in believing that HS reaction over his soft claim is not legitimate. HS reaction over TF claim is reasonable, i would have reacted in the same way or the other.

You would have voted to lynch TF after he soft claimed?

[MortFeld]

Arc, are you aware that the case on HS is not at all limited to what people saw as PR hunting?

[MortFeld]

Hence, I was trying to help HS and TF to see each other in a different perspective as TF was stuck in believing that HS reaction over his soft claim is not legitimate. HS reaction over TF claim is reasonable, i would have reacted in the same way or the other.

You would have voted to lynch TF after he soft claimed?

remember she said she didn't believe my soft claim

Isn't changing her opinion on this (i.e. believing you are town and telling the truth) inconsistent with believing that HS' reaction is legitimate?

Pedit: Toto isn't that just boxed WIFOM?

[MortFeld]

No, you're not reading this my perspective. I said HS reaction is normal to think he is may scum for soft-claim but TF motive was different and HS couldn't see it and I was pitching in both to see that whole argument in a different perspective. And with the way HS read TF as scum makes me more to believe that HS reaction was genuine and only a townie and can question such claims as strongly as he did.

Didn't HS explicitly read TF as town though? If you actually look at HS' posts during the whole PL discussion, their vote on TF had nothing to do with the vig claim. They voted TF

despite

thinking TF was town. Don't take my word for it, read starting at 614. This is why I'm struggling with your explanation, the idea that HS questioned TF's claim just isn't true. I should read the discussion again to see if HS explains this since my PBPA was just your posts.

If you don't read, assume it's true that HS read TF as town the whole time. Does this change your read of HS?

[MortFeld]

Reading back on it, HS definitely never questioned whether or not TF was vig. HS questioned whether or not TF was even claiming vig. That looks like PR hunting, not town-motivated skepticism.

Not that I think HS is scum. What I'm trying to work out is that I feel like Arc's townread of HS magically appeared out of nowhere so I'm trying to assess Arc's reasoning.

[MortFeld]

Arc you're not understanding re: the vig claim.

Curious town!HS

Wow, TF just softclaimed some role. We're about to lynch TF! I wonder what this means. Maybe TF is lying scum trying to save his skin. Ok, I support this lynch. Vote: TF.

Devious scum!HS

Wow, TF just softclaimed some role. TF, is it vig!? Are you softclaiming vig!? Are you a vigilante power role? By the way, I think TF is town. Vote: TF.

Arc, are you telling me that the first one is what happened?

[MortFeld]

Yeah I don't like Chaos' lynch pool.

[MortFeld]

Hm I remember the lynch pool differently. You're right, it's pretty reasonable. Makes me not like Arc even more.

[MortFeld]

Arc, have you even read the original discussion this is all referencing? Starting at 614.

[MortFeld]

I am definitely stuck in a black hole, it's the black hole of 70 pages of nonsense + 6 replacements out of 13 players.

[MortFeld]

Here is why it is confusing to me.

You are saying you townread HS because HS had a specific type of reaction to TF's claim.

This reaction is not what happened.

Therefore, your townread is either not real, is misguided, or is based on something else.

[MortFeld]

One (probably) Vig claim, one Cop claim.

Either someone's lying or town is very strong, no?

[MortFeld]

I'm not scum. Why is it a shitty point?

[MortFeld]

I was asking a question about game balance. "Because cop and vig together isn't overpowered" is an answer to that question. In 1833 there was like, 1 town PR, and this is the first non-newbie I've played, so I was curious.

[MortFeld]

The circle jerk is only happening because you didn't read the actual interaction you're talking about, Arc.

[MortFeld]

No, there were 3 (masons are PRs). And your question seemed to be more an implication that one of us is likely lying, and not an actual question on game balance. It doesn't matter for now, I guess, you're not the lynch today.

Well you're right, nested in the question was my own opinion that that setup was unlikely. You're telling me it's not, I was looking for more of a census.

[MortFeld]

Chaos, do you still think HS is scum?

[MortFeld]

I don't understand why Arc is so sure of her read... I lean toward lying but I'm not seeing anything conclusive.

Pedit: where did Chaos say he wants town to lynch or shoot you?

[MortFeld]

Guys, if you don't lynch me today, you also get rid of ArcAngel. Sounds like a great deal to me!

@mort, maybe arc is talking about this?

idk what this actually means

this game is giving me a headache

Oh, I'm pretty sure Chaos just meant that he's going to flip town, meaning that Arc is going to quit.

[MortFeld]

I don't see why I should want to avoid lynching Chaos. If we had a good alternative it would make sense to not lynch the cop claim day 1, but I don't see one.

[MortFeld]

Pretty sure this situation is not even close to Titus. That type of situation will probably never happen again.

Pedit: looking forward to who you think we should lynch then rb.

Pedit2: Actually you're right, Arc is an alternative, it's just that if Arc flips town we're in the same situation as we are now. If you flip town Arc is probably scum, meaning that the EV of your lynch is higher. Isn't trading one scum for cop worth it?

[MortFeld]

I mean, rb is an alternative, Road is an alternative, even Drone and Shadow. It was inaccurate to say there are no alternatives, I just think your lynch has the highest EV.

[MortFeld]

Pretty sure this situation is not even close to Titus. That type of situation will probably never happen again.

Pedit: looking forward to who you think we should lynch then rb.

Pedit2: Actually you're right, Arc is an alternative, it's just that if Arc flips town we're in the same situation as we are now. If you flip town Arc is probably scum, meaning that the EV of your lynch is higher. Isn't trading one scum for cop worth it?

Mort - Forget that he even claimed COP. Did he do anything in the game that looked town to you? Answer this please. and please put yourself into his role. If you cop, would play like the way he played? especially someone who know to be awarded as best town performance in Mafiascum.net scummies awards?

This is the reason I don't believe his claim, but you're trying to say that it's beyond doubt that he's telling the truth which is just not true.

And now you're trying to set up lynches to push into Arc D2, Mort. Why are mine and Arc's reads connected in that way?

Arc pushed you 'to get you to talk' earlier which I think was a terrible push, and is now certain to an alarming extent that you are lying. For you to disagree that Arc is 90% scum means that you probably are not town...

[MortFeld]

Ha, someone else did the vote instead of post thing!

[MortFeld]

FWIW I am way more sure that he's lying now that he isn't going after you. How could he think you're town if he's town?

[MortFeld]

You referring to Arc.

[MortFeld]

Everyone gives reads on TF please: just say scum or town.

Town.

I don't remember why people townread Copper, but I didn't scumread him after our discussion. Wobbu was very scummy though.

[MortFeld]

Shadow, what r u doing?

[MortFeld]

I'm having trouble actually believing that people are bad enough to make day1 claims of strong power roles like that though, sadly :/

Don't understand what this means. TF was about to get PLd when he claimed, and Chaos (apparently?) was afraid he'd be away and get lynched when he claimed.

[MortFeld]

Huh? If you're certain rb is scum wouldn't you just shoot rb tonight and lynch someone else today?

[MortFeld]

Is "don't lynch power roles regardless of how unreasonable the claim is" like a hard rule on MS? I am not seeing Chaos telling the truth.

Pedit: HS/buffet/drone doesn't include Chaos.

[MortFeld]

Is "don't lynch power roles regardless of how unreasonable the claim is" like a hard rule on MS? I am not seeing Chaos telling the truth.

Pedit: HS/buffet/drone doesn't include Chaos.

i could lynch chaos based on ISO, i hated it. i'm just wary of it because i think arc could be scum here - which would be even worse than letting mort live because we would lynch Cop and then our vig is gonna shoot me (town) and get NK'd. so that's 2 town PR + VT dead in 1 phase.

yer i know the claim is weird af (L-3) but the reasoning kinda makes sense and I'm first to admit that i get my reads via interaction and re-reading isn't aomething i'm good at getting reads from

ISO + the fact that Chaos isn't even scumreading Arc, when I suggested that Chaos town means Arc scum Chaos said 'why are you linking us like that huh!?' Like why would a townie react this way.

Lynch Chaos today. If he's town we lynch Arc tomorrow.

[MortFeld]

TF it is annoying for you to say we're not lynching Chaos and to have your replacement be rb.

Uzi: town.

TF your case on Copper was this:

1. I felt like his reaction to creepy being L-2 didn't make sense. If he was genuinely concerned he would have unvoted, not say he is keeping his vote but will unvote at L-1
2. He attempted to misrep me by saying my posts about him said 2 different things when they clearly didn't. Even when I point them out and show they say the exact same thing, he refuses to admit his mistake. I may be naive but I am of the belief that scum is less likely to admit their mistakes, town should have no problems admitting theirs.
3. The fact that he jumped on TB after TB voted him and went and lied about his activity. There is no evidence that supports Copper's claim and evidence that proves his claim was not true.

1. Is reasonable but was explained.
2. Is semantic. You had one thing in mind not conveyed clearly by your words, he read your words.
3. Is this just because Copper said TB was game avoiding? I don't think this misconception is scummy. TB barely added anything to the game and did appear to directly avoid questions.

So forgive me for not being completely on your side regarding rb. Wobbu was awful and scummy but so was HS and HS is probably town.

Did someone say that Wobbu was active elsewhere on the site before getting replaced? Isn't this against site rules?

[MortFeld]

Mort: how sure are you that Chaos is scum and arc is town? I need to just sheep some townread here because these replaces make catchup more like a chore than parsing a mafia game

Not incredibly sure, I just think it makes no sense for Chaos to try to cast suspicion on me for saying Chaos town -> Arc scum. This is something only scum!Chaos would do since town!Chaos would be scumreading the heck out of Arc.

For anyone confused here's what I'm referencing

And now you're trying to set up lynches to push into Arc D2, Mort. Why are mine and Arc's reads connected in that way?

If I claimed cop and someone was yelling about how in 50 games of mafia they were always right and I had to be scum, I'd be the first to say that's scummy. Why would town!Chaos find these associations objectionable:
Chaos town -> Arc scum
Chaos scum -> Arc town

Maybe it's my inexperience but that seems like the only way to look at it.

If you don't want to lynch Chaos today then we should lynch Arc today, but I think Arc town + Chaos scum is more likely.

[MortFeld]

TF it is annoying for you to say we're not lynching Chaos and to have your replacement be rb.

Well we aren't lynching a cop claim day 1, so who do you suggest we lynch?

If you don't want to lynch Chaos today then we should lynch Arc today, but I think Arc town + Chaos scum is more likely.

[MortFeld]

RB looks to be sorting and helping direct town right now. Arc has been incredibly distracting, and don't forget Arc's slot was originally TB.

I also think there literally has to be 1 scum between Arc and Chaos.

Pedit: no I'm not joking without getting perjorative I think there is literally nothing to be gleaned from that entire discussion wherein you, Copper and I insulted other people got mad and went down a dumb logic rabbit hole. In case I am wrong I am going to read it once again and I suspect all I will gain is moderate feelings of resentment and futility.

[MortFeld]

"I'm not confbiasing guys, i'm playing good!"

This literally has nothing to do with you. I confirmed copper was scum before he replaced out. You can't confbias confirmed scum.

What the fluck are you talking about, you have an argument for scum!Copper that almost nobody agrees with.

[MortFeld]

Pretty sure TB was fake, whether that's because he is town but unable to read the game beyond surface level as he professed and therefore sheeps, or whether that's because he's scum without real reads is the question.

[MortFeld]

Did you see my list of scummy things RK did?

I already ceded that Road is not scummy for their accusation alone. It's all the other stuff.

Voted Creeps explicitly as a reaction test, then later said it was not a reaction test
Said my case against HS makes them town, when their argument was actually that the case is NAI
Misrepped/misread Wobbu's conclusion, speaking for him in the process, about HS, while I was trying to dialogue with Wobbu and not with Road
Green! read Nero with almost zero information
Before Road had concrete stuff to justify a vote, they said I gave them the 'heeby jeebies' and declined to explain what this meant
Voted Toto and said 'Guess why!' When I said, no, I'd rather see your reasons, they said 'no u tell me'

I'm undecided on the slot atm.