Mini Normal 1890 - Endgame

[massive]

This looks open so ego.

This is the first game where BBT and I are GUARANTEED to be the same alignment and he's missing it!

VOTE: Grey

[massive]

Hey you claimed scum on THIS PAGE!

[massive]

That's a bad tact to take. Here I thought we were having fun.

[massive]

I liked it better when you were a slick entrapping cunning weasel.

[massive]

I'm not using it as an excuse for my vote. If you wanted a reason for my vote, I could tell you.

[massive]

Are y'all so focused and hardcore aggressive that there is no humor, no fun in these games any more? Hoo geez.

[massive]

In all honesty, what made me want to vote Grey was the way he pushed Barleycorn v. Cooperative on page three. It's like he wants to push them to fight, but to no real end, seeing as he abandons it once Twoface gets in his grill.

[massive]

Undetermined. I'm still reading through D1 (although I guess I should start at page 41)

[massive]

Lessee. Shade on reasoning behind vote: check. Shade on individual: check. Shade on whole game: check. You've hit for the scumbag trifecta.

[massive]

I feel like 1889 broke Grey.

[massive]

What's wrong with me saying that? How is that indicative of anything?

[massive]

I was informed the first 40 pages were a shitshow. And I'm OK with being "current."

[massive]

I still think Grey. Magna, no offense but you aren't impressing here today either, since normally I see town-you with all these fingers in all these pies but you seem oddly focused today. I think Sheep could be town. Boon's one post today is Boon-y. Titus is town but I always think Titus is town and it's really more important what Titus thinks of me, and it doesn't hurt that Twoface was obvtown in the bit of D1 I read. Keyenpeydee needs a closer look, and I probably should at least go back and look at the lynch.

[massive]

I'm reading the shitstorm. This is stupid. All I get is "oh this person is town, I like the way he is asking questions and trying to focus someone, ANYONE during this ridiculous Boon meltdown" and then because of all the subs I go and look who mattblackguy is now AND HE'S A DEAD MASON THIS IS NOT HELPFUL

[massive]

I think people were invested in calling Twoface's contributions bad despite it being pretty 100% town Twoface.

[massive]

Well at least that's a little more town-Magna.

ZZZX: I'll bite, why am I scum?

[massive]

Grey should not be getting a let up because of his playstyle. He can do better than this; I've witnessed it. This is not tryhard twon Grey.

VOTE: Grey

[massive]

@MOD Neeb to sub out due to girl reasons

Looks like scum flailing

And ew.

[massive]

Sheep, talk to me about key. I could vote him but that's just because his posting in D2 and 3 has an ick factor, not because he's done anything super scummy. Was there something outstanding D1 I should go back and focus on?

[massive]

I would say that overall he has posted nothing, which is a scum factor in and of itself - also if you look at where his votes have been it really doesn't look good to me. If it looks good to you, let me know.

You could say at least half of this about me. Maybe even the second part depending on your opinion of Grey. Where am I on the scum-town meter?

[massive]

Holy cats Boon's Curse-Word-O-Meter is pegged to eleven. Unfortunately I actually meta'ed this earlier when I replaced in and it's sadly NAI. But I think it's town-Boon in this case.

Come join me on Grey.

[massive]

Instead let's lynch Grey.

[massive]

I don't like that there's no counter wagon to CK and I don't think I would like much of my company if I were to join it. Will be interested in Papa's take on Grey after the read.

Also should probably be noted that that vote count has 4 votes on CK and that puts him at L-1.

[massive]

Prodge and catching up while on VLA.

[massive]

I don't hate the idea of punching me because I'm going to be rubbish in LYLO because I can't shake this Grey read, but make me work for it. I'm back in office on Wednesday.

[massive]

Also lynching me. Punching me haha.

[massive]

Also "make them" geez.

[massive]

I need to reread both of these and will do so first thing in the morning. My gut instinct is keyenpeedee.

[massive]

I need to reread both of these and will do so first thing in the morning. My gut instinct is keyenpeedee.

How do I make sense as scum with key?

Well I'm sure I can figure out some way, but I'm at least going to try and be objective. But this is WIFOM at best and you know asking it has no good answer.

[massive]

First things first:

Votecount 2.4

momo

: keyenpeydee, -Grey-,

Elena Fisher

Votecount 2.5

momo

: keyenpeydee, -Grey-,

Elena Fisher

, MagnaofIllusion

Votecount 2.6

momo

: keyenpeydee,

Elena Fisher

, MagnaofIllusion, Cooperative Sheep,

Titus

, -Grey-

1595 and 1598 don't sound like what scum would say when directly following their partner onto a town wagon. And I don't think that would be lost on MOI-scum.

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Votecount 3.4

CloudKicker

: Boonskiies, Cooperative Sheep, -Grey-, Keyenpeydee,

CloudKicker

I feel like this has another scum on it. Otherwise I don't see the benefit of CK self-hammering.

[massive]

I need to reread both of these and will do so first thing in the morning. My gut instinct is keyenpeedee.

How do I make sense as scum with key?

Well I'm sure I can figure out some way, but I'm at least going to try and be objective. But this is WIFOM at best and you know asking it has no good answer.

So be objective and give him an answer. That was a pure dodge.

I'm trying to figure out why you want to be involved in this. I don't feel like you have an investment in me being scum or in Grey being scum so -- why is this important to you specifically?

[massive]

I'm re-reading keyenpeydee and got to the point where Twoface outs the masons and the immediate reaction. This is just another example of Grey pushing a non-town agenda (following Boon catching the "scum slip" on 1042, begging MOI to walk him out of reasonable explanation of masons in 1048), and another reaction from Magna that doesn't seem scum-fueled (1050)

Is that confirmation bias? Can someone else re-read that segment?

[massive]

seems like MOI was setting up a fake claim to me.

You think his "well there could be an X-Shot whatever" was setting up a fake claim for himself? Is there any other spot he does this?

[massive]

Because to me it all sort of flows together from Twoface's outbursts, which were the main focus there. It seems more about, on the whole, how badly Twoface handled the situation, and a general reaction to that.

[massive]

Votecount 2.6

momo

: keyenpeydee, Elena Fisher, MagnaofIllusion, Cooperative Sheep, Titus,

-Grey-

I'm really really sure that momo will flip scum.

You're really really wrong.

Noted.

Still re-reading keyenpeydee and found this gem. How did this not get followed up the next day? More specifically, maybe, keyenpeydee, why did you abandon this and hop on Elena?

[massive]

So who is scum, then, PZ? Me and who?

[massive]

Also I'm dumb. Back to re-reading keyenpeydee.

[massive]

This is what I got from my keyenpeydee review. Talk to me. Will do MOI / PZ after lunch.

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516, 518: "Twoface / Matt is town, Magna is scum" but never follows that up; in fact, he has no idea where his vote is or what he wants to do with it other than eventually unvoting Sheep at 644.

(just for my later notes : Key references 126 (Twoface's post about how MOI won't self-vote and is thus scum) and 217 (mattblack's interpretation of early MOI behavior).)


776: Magna is doing something scummy but keyenpeydee STILL won't use that vote

836: Avoids MOI v Twoface completely and votes away to start the Lycanfire wagon. The Boon wagon has ended and Magna, literally the ONLY person keyenpeydee has expressed scummy feelings about, is the top wagon. Why? I guess one possibility is scum-key is more worried about a third-party killer (since that seems to be the complete focus of his issues with Lycanfire there).

1041: FINALLY votes Magna. Key replaces Grey on the Magna wagon, keeping Magna at L-2.

1122: Actually might play back to 516-518. Consistency points?

1157: I actually like and don't think this comes from an Elena-partner.

1768, 1770: Is this what bussing keyenpeydee looks like? Elena is town in 1071 but by 1679 is in the scumpile, without much information on why. 1157 is the only post where he mentions her between those two. But then it seems like he needs to be reminded about something scummy about Elena by 1768, which makes me think he just threw out that scumread just so he'd have someone to put in that pile. The question is going to be, did he do that because classic scum "one townie, one buddy" scumlist, or is he just clueless to his own reads and is putting ANYTHING out there just to appear like he's doing work?

1789: Is still ew, and I don't know that this is anywhere near what I think keyenpeydee bussing looks like.

1813: "No reads on Elena" despite listing her in his own readslist as scum independently of Boon's case against her. I don't know maybe he is just really bad at bussing.

2172: Why, after going on D3 about how he wants to lynch Sheep after Elena, does he start D4 with voting ZZZX? Why does he comply with Boon telling him to vote PZ? Also how did I get into the scumteam?

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FINAL VERDICT : I think just bad at being town. Any connection between him and Elena would be flaily at best, and while we know he flails when under pressure himself, it seems like he wouldn't need to feel that way about a scum partner. There's no consistency, he's all over the place with his reads, and he's not really pushing any scum read EXCEPT for Elena on D3. And that wasn't even his own read!

[massive]

Now Imma go back and read what Boon said about him in his wall.

[massive]

It was what it was. I thought it interesting, going back and reading your wall, that you thought Key's read progression was natural and understandable, and it was a complete mystery to me.

[massive]

Let me look at that.

[massive]

I don't know that I'm going to be of much use talking about that until I go back and look at the conversations between them myself. When I was reading keyenpeydee initially I did start to think "hm maybe MOI + Key" but the Key-side of it just looks like he wants to stand up to MOI who is bullying him a bit, but just can't figure out how to do it. He scum-reads him for it but it's a throwaway read, and obviously rooted in MOI's behavior, and the fact that he never pursues it until other people are doing it too is more sheepy than bussy.

[massive]

This is going to sound like I have a huge wealth of Magna meta experience and I don't. But I think of Magna as being an aggressive player but more in the vein of "figuring the game out" and not just attacking people, which seems like his early game here. He asks a lot of very pointed questions, which has been missing. My experience is (I believe) completely with town-Magna.

207: His question to Elena is the best example of this, and is the most Magna thing he does in his first 20 posts. Some of this COULD be due to the wagon on him, I imagine.

234: Is a good example of how he's not trying to sort anyone. Mostly just shade.

521: If Magna is scum, scum don't have daytalk, since this post is where Magna figures out the masons, and feels the urge to put a hint in the thread.

If Magna is town, what's worse for town, hinting they're masons in-thread or changing his reads without any explanation?

823: Hedges the mason read. Up to here, I haven't been able to figure out why Magna would continue to argue with Twoface, other than just to argue. He's not pushing them as scum, but he's also not in any danger (his wagon evaporated and Boon became the wagon). Granted Twoface is giving him plenty of ammunition, though. So why hedge the mason read at this point? Because this is where the momentum swings back to him -- Twoface and ThinkBig move back to him in 803 & 804.

988: Normally I'd expect Magna to work to elicit that content rather than offhand mention players who are lurking. He hasn't made any effort to actively sort those players (or probably ZZZX or Sheep) by this point.

1050: Or Lycanfire (despite saying here he might still have a scumread on him).
... reading this out of context might be weird? Like, it's 1000 posts on D1, obviously there was a LOT being said, so maybe the scumread on Lycanfire is supportable? But still not the stuff in 988.

1125: Not Magna, but Aristo, who seemed to say he would be able to read Magna -- never came up with a conclusion, but did participate in Magna's chosen wagon on momo at some point.

1556: Man I don't know that this is a post to a scumbuddy. Or 1444 for that matter.

1609: Needles me about opening reads. Fine. I can appreciate that he wants more from me. I can apprreciate that he wants me comment on the thing he is currently leading -- the momo wagon. Why, if partners with Elena, does he want to direct my attention to Elena?

1618: Why would scum-Magna push Titus away from townreading Elena?

2062: Zito now. I imagine it could be fabricated but this doesn't feel like buddy response.

... like, I can see why Cloud would want to potentially cut off Zito here if they're buddies. 2023, 2059 both look like someone trying to help Cloud out of the hole. But 2062 definitely doesn't feel like Zito has an idea which way this is going to go.

... oh hey look Boon says this and interprets it the other way.

2087: I don't hate Zito's reasons for voting ZZZX here.

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I'm not sold yet on Papa Zito. It's probably 1444 - 1556 - 1609 - 1618 that moves me away from possible Elena partner more than anything. Enough so I'll go read ZZZX at least.

[massive]

If you say "vote Grey" I vote Grey.

[massive]

I find it interesting you colored BBT (my slot) green in at least two of those VCs.

[massive]

Grey, where did your Sheep scumread go?

[massive]

I've listed out most of Key's posting already. There was no flailing, just a tunnel on a scum slot.

It was not about the action

Its fake.

He was faking the tunnel on elena

He wants you to believe he is hitting scum. Did you seriously read that as a real tunnel?

I could also probably vote ZZZX.

[massive]

Well, I was hoping you'd have a better explanation than "I did it right previously" since one of them was 1.2 (the first one) but I have another question about it : How do the vote counts you quoted from Day 1 point to "massive or Grey but not both"?

[massive]

Why is it scummy? Because scum would have additional knowledge and not remember that BBT was replaced by me, and assume they were dead and town.

[massive]

Why is it scummy? Because scum would have additional knowledge and not remember that BBT was replaced by me, and assume they were dead and town.

So you're saying I was scum who knew you were town but forgot you were alive twice, but remembered at other times that you were alive?
I don't get it.

Yeah, I don't get it either, which is why I asked about it. But I will say I find it less likely to come from town, simply because town would have zero reason to color me green even once on accident. Ultimately I'm trying not to get hung up on it because I know dumb stuff happens when you start coloring in stuff, but I wanted it out there.

[massive]

Zito, any reason you're taking Sheep's greening of himself at face value? Or is there just nothing interesting about Sheep on that wagon?

[massive]

VOTE: -Grey-

I'm on either Grey or ZZZX at this point.

[massive]

So. Zito is because of Boon. Sheep you scumread. Why me?

[massive]

I'm not unvoting Sheep until it's dead. Period.

MoI and Boon both did shit that is mind-bendingly bad, and that kind of behavior comes from bad town more than scum an inordinate amount of time.

The reason I'm so dead set on voting Sheep is because they fucked up in a far more subtle manner, overestimating a prod dodge post that had no real heart in it as being a legitimate push and overreacting to it.

This doesn't look "meh" and

Grey, where did your Sheep scumread go?

My own reads are on a back burner until I give Boon his revenge.

This answer doesn't feel like you got to "meh" anywhere around when I asked it.

And cat, I've voted you since D2.

[massive]

Is that true? I don't remember that but now I guess I will go look.

1861 was Musical and I think the first time I played with you. We were both town. 1861 is what I base what I expect your town game to be.
1889 was Greatest and we were both town.

Ah, WWE, you were scum. That's an interesting ISO in retrospect knowing you were scum now. Junk push on MariaR, junk push on Kain -- it's like you purposefully avoid interacting with anyone that might be able to read you AND follow it up with a cogent reasonable statement on why. DiamondSentinel on D2. That was tough (even now) though because all of the sensible people beyond YT and maybe IAI were scum. Avoided your partners like the plague pretty much, not Titus so much as zefiend though (or Leon when he got drafted), but Titus was mostly to call them town.

So I guess I oughta go back and see what you did here.

[massive]

Yeah I'm gonna be happy where I am. I get to stuff like

Good guess that I am scum. However, I'd like to see my partner momo to be lynched first so town could win this game. Thank you.

VOTE: keyenpeydee

See scum claim, vote scum claim.

after you telling me about how you claim scum as town all the time and only superficial players would fall for it.

I'm good.

[massive]

So what, you think it's confbias? Or do you think I'm hoping to convince Sheep to vote you?

[massive]

Actually, I didn't vote. Mod only accepts vote tags. I purposefully just bolted it hoping to snag a biter before mod posted the official count. Have to go back and read what happened after I left yesterday.

[massive]

Neither Sheep nor ZZZX bit. If Grey was town then one of them would have bit, right?

[massive]

I'm trying to think who it happened to earlier in the game but not having much luck. On the phone so my search skillz are a bit lacking.

[massive]

Revote me.

[massive]

VOTE: Grey

Zito could have flipped and won. Sheep could have voted me and won. It's Zzzx / Grey.

[massive]

Sorry. I thought it aaa obvious. Zito could have flipped TO ME and won.

[massive]

That's a loss.

[massive]

Well I'm still town so ... us?

[massive]

Thanks for hammering me instead? Haha