Mini 1895: Shaziro Mafia - GAME OVER
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Is there a reason you decided to leave the wagon on scum before even looking at their scummy reaction? It's somewhat moot since you switched to voting for different scum but.
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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#throwbackthursday to when people actually subscribed to LaLIn post 60, CooLDoG wrote:https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _All_Liars
then.
Because I'm not a degenerate who claims lover on page 3 even out of a joke.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I am quite curious about this question because it shouldn't have been necessary to ask.In post 72, Superhans wrote:
Is this RVS or serious? From what I've read so far it is a joky wag wag.In post 50, Shaziro wrote:IAlwaysWinSometimes(3)- implosion, DeathRowKitty, horrordude0215
He's literally the one person I called town.Boon wrote:Seems fabricated. It would obviously be Eddie at this point...-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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alright let's just go ahead and quotestripe everything about page 5. Going to try to avoid getting into any long theory discussions unless I wind up being in the mood for them later but etc.
His immediate aggressive posturing towards the lovers claim was imo less likely to come from scum.Twoface wrote:Cool dog likely town? Please explain
85 and 87 read as a genuine early attempt to make sense of things.And explain desully also
Lots.Desully wrote:Why do people insist on making town lists ?? What value is in it??
-It helps me keep track of my reads so that I can reference what I was feeling at various points of the game later.
-It makes my thought process more transparent, which makes me more readable.
-It helps to limit the pool of people that I feel the need to examine more closely, at least in early days.
-It allows me to see peoples' own takes on those reads, and see them question those that they disagree with so that I can disavow myself of them if others have legitimate counterarguments that I agree with.
Etc, etc.
1 disagree but 2 my post is not really classifiable as a reads list. I listed four townreads and left everyone else unspecified. It was more intended to be my current take on the game rather than a reads list, even if it is essentially an abridged one.Twoface wrote:no clue, read lists are stupid and should never be done
Well that depends on what you mean by serious.Superhans wrote:If this wasn't RVS this would be such a shockingly poor reason to join a wagon.
Still don't like it.
@Implosion is this vote serious?
If by serious you mean that it's a vote with intent to lynch, then no. If by serious you mean a vote with intent to display that he's the person I currently find scummiest, then no. If by serious you mean a non-arbitrary vote with purpose behind it, then yes.
Incidentally, Superhans, you didn't answer my query in 95 - care to? Just to make it explicit, why did you feel the need to question the seriousness of a wagon that was clearly not serious (given that the person being voted literally hadn't posted)?
Did you know that the mafia canCoolDog wrote:there isn't any. It just gives scum good nk targets.also read the game and figure out who looks town?And that by saying who you think is scum, you're implicitly saying who you think is town? And that they already have good nk targets by just looking at people who no one is suspicious of/who have good reads?
I'm tired of refuting this argument, as a player who finds it often easier to townhunt than scumhunt.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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...sometimes people miss things?In post 139, TwoFace wrote:Somebody who makes jokes should have totally seen that claim as a joke
in particular i feel like cooldog is the kind of person who'd possibly take something like that literally. This isn't from scanning random games, this is from having seen him post on ms for years in discussion forums. And i certainly don't think he'd lie as scum about thinking that it was legitimate when he knew it was a joke. it's mostly moot anyway. it's not a strong read.
Do you think he's scum lying about having thought it was serious? What is the scum motivation for lying about something so arbitrary when everyone else would obviously know it's a joke?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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and making jokes is different from the context of how he said he doesn't have a sense of humor. like
this is such a weird thing to say... it like doesn't reflect reality at all at least not the reality i'm familiar withSomebody who makes jokes should have totally seen that claim as a joke
maybe drk was right :V-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I thought it was implicit in my not thinking he was scum. Early wagons are often a matter of seeing what happens with them/how the person being wagoned reacts/how others react to generate information. The second of these obviously flubbed because cmm hasn't been here and now there are no real wagons.Superhans wrote:@Implosion ur vote on ConMan was super poor. Even poorer to take it back by saying you now scum read him.
If you don't want him lynched, why vote? You're not being transparent.
...then he genuinely thought it wasn't a joke by default, because if he's town then I'm assuming he wasn't lying about something like that and it doesn't really make sense to even consider the possibility of it imo.In post 154, havingfitz wrote:
What if Cool Dog is town?In post 144, implosion wrote:if cooldog is scum i am quite confident that he genuinely thought it wasn't a joke.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Superhans wrote:The difference in you and Implosion, is that your cases are different, and I've read them differently.
When you are asked "what is the difference between x and y," saying "the difference is that they're different" is not helpful in communicating your point. DRK is pretty clear about what was similar, and some of the reasoning you cited certainly applies to both of us, in particular:Superhans wrote:there is a significant difference in your play and Implosions play, and it is within that difference that i draw different reads.
you specifically accused me of (originally) not being transparent, and DRK was pretty explicitly being very transparent (she literally said "i'm going to sheep the first person who does this" and then sheeped the first person who did it, while saying "i'm following through on my having said that i'm going to sheep the first person who does this"...)In post 173, Superhans wrote:Implosion straight up said he was sheeping, you were far less transparent.
I'd argue that I was significantly less transparent; i said I was sheeping when I was asked about it, DRK said she was sheeping before she even made her vote.
I object less to the reasoning within your post where you voted her (i still disagree with it) but post 173 is very strange.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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horrordude's post is good, but probably not especially telling for his alignment. I agree with him that these past few pages have been not super productive. It's mostly just material to read hans with and I'm not sure how to interpret it yet. For lack of more tactful phrasing he seems fairly full of himself (calling me lynchbait when I have 0 non-RVS votes on me and 0 people calling me scum, his general attitude interacting towards DRK, etc) but i'm not sure how to interpret it strongly. Gut says town but not strongly at all.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i don't think it's worth really arguing this further unless i get a stronger townread on cooldog and he's under more pressure. I simply disagree that it's likely scum-motivated. It's certainly possible; I think it's extremely unlikely.
i hope you aren't serious.Boon wrote: I agree with this. In fact, I think there's actual pro town aspect to joke claiming. Wifom's the scum team wondering about if they should shoot said jokers or not. Drawing a NK is good work if you aren't a strong PR.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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you continue to come off as mostly town, and he comes off fairly neutrally. I disagree with the angle of attacking the lovers claim because it has no motivation, but I can understand it as being reasonable enough for that early into the game if you think that the claim is serious. I still don't agree with the attack even assuming that he did think it was a serious claim but I don't find it particularly scummy.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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This is a questionable-at-best use of that term. 231 is strictly a clarification, 233 is part of a conversation and 235 is me answering an explicit question. None of them are me talking about myself. I can sort of see what you're referring to with 231 if you're accusing me of just trying to look transparent? which is still inaccurate.Superhans wrote:Implosions last posts all scream LAMIST.
Yep, just me, the noob who's been on this site for >6 yearsSuperhans wrote:Rly.
I think LAMIST can be pretty good with players who are noob. (Not excluding myself).
(you are really stretching my ability to not be condescending)
What are you referring to? I feel like I've spent most of the past x pages trying (and failing) to explain why the case on you is bad, which is more like making a mole-hill out of a mountain.Cooldog wrote:ALso, obviously imp is making a mountain out of a mole-hill, but I'm not sure that it is scummy.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Wheme is probably town.
I've been known to be facetious at times.Fitz wrote:Not a fan of Imp's Post 47. IAWS has done virtually nothing (i.e. most of his wagon at this point is RVS I assume) and yet Imp is giving CMM some shit for moving off IAWS.
@ Imp...Why are IAWS and Boon scum?
Believe me I have been tempted to shine quite a bit more.Imp shines a little shade (IMO) on Hans...
I don't actually think boon is scum (nor did I then). He's null for me atm.OK...so imp is probably calling Boon scum for OMGUS (yes?)...but decides to get off his scum!IAWS wagon and hop on the wagon scum!Boon just exited. Also happens to be the largest wagon.
This is frankly accurate. I feel like I've accomplished relatively little with my posting overall.implosion makes nice well-reasoned posts but I'm not sure that they are getting anywhere. Kind of like a butterfly just flittering around looking for a good spot to land.
I hope to change that in the near future.
This is a misinterpretation. I said the opposite.why does having nothing to do with your vote make you happy?
What a coincedence! I asked you two literally immediately after calling you opaque... did you like, not notice that those were questions? ?????If I'm being "opaque" ask me a question.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Unvote
VOTE: Twoface
DRK said it was the next wagon
His push on cooldog in particular (compared to other peoples') feels really one-dimensional. It feels like scum who has latched on to what they believe is an easy-to-justify tunnel. It seems like essentially every single thing that cooldog posts, he finds some scum motivation for. That doesn't look to me like a townie who is objectively trying to evaluate individual posts for which alignment they're indicative of; it looks like scum who thinks that they have found someone that they can list good logical reasons for voting, and so has decided to latch onto the read and push it because they know that they'll be able to look accurately logical in pushing it.
It conceivably could be town tunneling really badly but cooldog in particular in this game is, IMO, the kind of "easy mislynch" that is very attractive to scum (assuming that I'm right that he's town, which is of course not a given, but bear with me). Cooldog has posted a lot of very at-face-value jarring things, like calling out the claim early and criticizing the cmm wagon that he was on. These things are, IMO, really not alignment-indicative when you look past the surface of them (in the former case, as I've argued, scum empirically don't lie about things like thinking that a claim like that is a real claim, and this is further supported by fitz's thinking that it might have been real; in the latter case, his cmm vote was purely rvs while at least mine wasn't).
It's also not alignment-indicative but I absolutely despise this attitude:
Saying that everyone you vote for deserved it is a surefire way to never improving your ability to read people. A mislynch is everyone's fault in different proportions that can never really be objectively evaluated. If you think someone is scummy and other people think they're towntelling and you were wrong it's your own damn fault for being wrong and not seeing the towntells for what they were, not that person's fault for being scummy.Twoface wrote:everyone says that, yet I never have a crazy reaction when people I think are scum flip. most of the time I am right and when I am wrong, i don't really care because it was them that played like scum, so they deserved it.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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IAWS is also a good candidate for scum right now; the trepidation in 239 feels a bit off to me. If you feel like other people are going off flimsy evidence, you should be able to cite cases where you think that they're going off of evidence that is so flimsy that they probably don't believe what they're saying. It feels a little bit more like scum-out-of-their-element than the other way around. Not drastically though. I don't make a ton of their wheme vote.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Unfortunately this is not how you win games as town!In post 369, Eddie Cane wrote:sometimes people deserve being mislynched. take momo or even wheme honestly. if you're going to play a trolly low effort game and you get lynched that's on you.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Wow, not a leading question at all!In post 377, TwoFace wrote:@imp - if a player intentionally lied in a manor to deceive everyone in the game. Is that AI to you? Answer and explain your reasoning
First, no, I would not say that this is a specific enough action to be alignment-indicative on its own. That's an extremely general action. There are tons of different ways to lie.
To answer the question that you're obviously intending to ask, I don't think cooldog has lied. If i'm reading correctly the lies are:
1) the thinking the claim was real, which I've argued about extensively and pointed out that havingfitzalso thought it was real.Did fitz lie too? Are they both scum for that?
2) the "premeditated" thing, where he says to wait for the vote-prodded response, then accuses wheme of only posting when prodded by votes. This is a much better point than point 1 actually, I'd say it's worth some amount of scumpoints for cooldog, but over my years on this site I have discovered and accounted for what was probably my largest bias: thinking that logic is indicative of town. It isn't, and the reverse holds as well: incorrect logic is not indicative of scum.
It's possible that cooldog set that up to try to make wheme look facetiously scummy, but (a) that's not a particularly strong way of getting others to agree with you because we'll obviously see through it and (b)it doesn't exactly take a lot to paint wheme as scummy. Wheme is a player who naturally obscures his opinions and it's very easy to push a case on him; there's no need for scum-cooldog to go out of his way like this. It's still possible and so he gets some amount of scum points for that, but it's perfectly possible as well that he is simply perceiving the game through a different lens that we are. Maybe he didn't realize that wheme had been posting earlier, maybe he has some other explanation; he hasn't commented since it.
To be completely honest, it's actually grating on my nerves to defend his point. I agree with you that cooldog's point here is absolutely terrible. But I see it more strongly as bad play than as scummy play. I completely see the train of thought and I don't fault you for scumreading him for it even if you are wrong. I've just seen too many players saying stupid things as town to think that it's as heavily scum-indicative as you're saying you think it is.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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You act as though this is established fact when like 3 people are telling you that it's not.TwoFace wrote:It's not a leading question. Cooldog has done this multiple times (at least twice).
It's a leading question because the question makes assumptions implicit that other people are not accepting.
Hang on a minute. What exactly do you mean here? You think we should lynch cooldog simply for playing terribly? Do you think that I should be happy to vote for cooldog because I agree that he's playing terribly, even though I think he's town? When you see someone who's playing terribly but you think that they're town, do you vote for them?TwoFace wrote:If you end up being town, I know to basically never play with you again cause you're one of the people who's enabling terrible play on this site.
And (apart from the fact that you're tunnelvisioning yourself into assuming that he is lying without considering the alternative at all), here is the heart of the matter: shouldn't. I agree. Don't. I disagree. They do. Townies do play badly. Lynching players for playing badly is not how you win games as town! I agree that general quality of play as a whole is lower than ideal but the way to solve that isn't by policy lynching, it's by teaching people to play better and learning to see things from others' perspectives (the latter of which you are very clearly indicating an inability to do).TwoFace wrote:Townies don't do those things, or at least they shouldn't
You might not think that it's a policy lynch but from what I can tell you're implying that the rest of us should treat it like one even if we disagree with your reasoning on why it's scummy.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I frankly think the cooldog discussion is bogging the game down and distracting from being able to read other slots as effectively because the arguments are sort of lost in themselves and i think both sides have seen each others arguments and made up their mind. I'm going to try to avoid talking about it from here on out unless new arguments are made.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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These have been some much more useful pages. Tempted to townlean on boon but I have a lot of trepidation in doing that so I'm not actually going to, iaws is i think no longer scummy because of 535 which I think looks genuine. He's probably town.
I'm quite a fan of horrordude's posting in general but I still have yet to get an inkling of his alignment.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Wheme is more or less locktown to me; I cannot imagine myself scumreading him at any point pretty much.
I agree with boon that 448 from superhans is quite sketchy. I honestly think the way wheme claimed is really really obviously town and that post looks like it's trying to obfuscate the claim and make it so less information is gleaned from it. Essentially I'm put off by his initial reaction to focus entirely on the literal role that was claimed without paying any heed whatsoever to the way in which it was claimed.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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But we're convinced for entirely disparate reasons:
at first you threw doubt on the claim, and then shifted discourse towards saying the fact of claiming fruit vendor meant that he was town.In post 533, Superhans wrote:because i wasnt convinced on the claim at first, but fruit vendor is literally the worst role for scum to try and claim, unless he actually is scum fruitseller, but i think the nature of that role makes it unlikely.
My problem isn't that shift, it's the fact that when you first considered the claim, you essentially looked it as "someone is claiming fruit vendor in a vacuum: are they town or scum" rather than actually looking at Wheme's posts where he claimed and evaluating those specific posts, which is the part that I thought was very transparently obvious as town.
Different people will see different things etc so it's not super strong but I think trying to evaluate the claim as a claim in a vacuum rather than a claim that was made by this player in this way is a scummy instinct. It lets you as scum evaluate things in what feels like a more objective way, essentially it lets you if you're scum make arguments about things that you actually believe.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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ironically i started looking at iaws more and a certain part of his post jumped out at me as the part that i viscerally gut townread, and then i looked at drk's post and it's the specific part that she called out as scummy.
It's certainly odd to ask someone else to make a case on someone to justify your continued voting of them; i think if he's town it's sort of his acknowledging his own cognitive dissonance on the matter, and when i read those sentences they just don't sound like something that make sense for scum to type out, look at, say "huh, this sounds like a good idea to say" and then click the submit button. Which is an awful argument in general, but is also bad because i don't know anything of iaws's play and they're new on the site.
This doesn't stop me from still having a visceral reaction to it of "scum wouldn't say this", though.-
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- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
- Polymath
- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
- Polymath
- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
- Polymath
- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
- Polymath
- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar
I actually finally have a townread on horror assuming cd townflip. I don't think he has any reason to waffle to iaws and back as scum when I already said I'd deadline hammer cd. Not sure what to think of him if cd flips scum, will take more thought then but if cd flips scum we should have a trove of info to look at in general so etc-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
- Polymath
- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
- Polymath
- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
- Polymath
- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
- Polymath
- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar
Alright. Here's my current view of the game:
horrordude is town because his play late yesterday doesn't make very much sense as scum, his entrance today is very consistent with town-who-didn't-have-time-yesterday moreso than scum, the way he's interacting with twoface looks really genuine and the reasons for voting him are crap. Yes, he didn't do very much yesterday; yes, he didn't persuade you to hop of cooldog well; these are not alignment indicative.
IAWS is probably town. I agree with eddie about the way he talked about claiming sounding more town than scum.
TwoFace is town. I don't remember my specific reason for this at the moment but i had a reason when i was looking at things at work and iirc it was pretty good.
DeathRowKitty is probably town. This is more of a gut feel thing than anything in particular; her play feels much more like what I remember of her town play. Or at least, the way she's interacting with the game is more reminiscent of how she plays as town.
Wheme is still locktown.
Desully is still likely town, though this read needs some work.
Eddie also needs re-evaluation but i still think most of what he's saying pings me as town.
That leaves Kop, fitz, and hans. Of these, Kop is a great scum candidate right now because i had vague scummy vibes from cmm that i always wanted to investigate more but never got the chance to and the one thing he talked significantly about yesterday was the prospect of leading the fruit vendor which is a very easy thing for scum to make noise about in either direction and is kind of a crappy reason to scumread someone imo. fitz effectively made one post yesterday, called wheme scum and cooldog town, hasn't had any meaningful interactions really, needs to engage more. Hans is also a great scum candidate both because of lingering things from yesterday and because the boon kill points in his direction.
I'd like to engage more directly with fitz and kop and hans and hear what their take on the current game state is seeing as none have posted yet today.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
- Polymath
- Posts: 14724
- Joined: September 9, 2010
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: zoraster's wine cellar