Mini Normal 1909: Girls ♥ Girls 1 ~ Endgame

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic because I don't drink.

[Hikari Link]

Guys, is this seriously 24 pages already?! How even...?

~ Y'know, there's a reason girls like to go slow. ~

[Hikari Link]

Still catching up. Just wanted to ask a question and make a comment.

What is shading? I keep seeing that term. Is that just like "throwing shade" or does it have some meaning I don't know?

i can see i'm gonna find this game really unenjoyable

If you're willing to talk about why you're frustrated then I'll do what I can to make sure I stop whatever's bothering you, but, again, the chance of you being scum faking frustration is still there and so I'd much rather talk through it instead of you just having a bad time here.

i don't care, the game is now readable and parse-able by people outside of the few of you who know each other

mission accomplished

I'm not going to lie, up until this point, I thought rb was just shitposting, but he legitimately got the game on track. I'm sorry, but the first 6 pages were almost unintelligible for me. I really tried, but I have almost no idea what was going on between all of you guys. rb, I sincerely thank you for that.

[Hikari Link]

Thanks, Boonskiies.

[Hikari Link]

Another question I just thought of regarding the early pages where everybody was saying that everyone else was towntelling for meta reasons. Have any of you ever misdiagnosed that? Have you thought one of the people you knew towntold for meta reasons, only for them to flip scum? It doesn't even have to be one of the people in this game.

[Hikari Link]

Why does this game feel so incomprehensible to me?! I've never felt like this playing Mafia before. I'm 12 pages in and I don't understand these interactions in the slightest. I'm not trying to ruin your fun or anything, guys, honestly. But if I can't start figuring out what's going on soon, it might be better if I just replace out and let somebody who is more familiar with you guys take the slot. I don't want to be a detriment to the game. I'm gonna go to bed and pick up tomorrow with a pair of fresh eyes.

P-edit:

dont worry keyser, nothing useful happened betweeen pages 1 and 24

Is this true?

[Hikari Link]

Typing up responses to things that I missed yesterday - let me know if there's anything that you want my commentary on.

Hikari Link, I understand that it can be hard to parse these early pages since a lot of it is bantering and referencing to past games; I don't think that the whole game will be like that and would be happy if you stayed on. If you don't mind reading longer posts, I plan on making a post that details all of the reads that I have so far which could possibly help but even if it doesn't I think you would be okay skipping the past 24 pages and just playing normally from here; as rb noted, it's not a dense 24 pages (entirely generated over one night of posting), so it's not like not knowing what they contain will kill your ability to play the game.

Thanks. I am really uncomfortable leaving 12 pages unread, so I'll probably go back and read them at some point, on the off chance I can actually get some information. I'll Try to catch up from 24 for now and post tonight. I have class right now and a fairly easy paper to write by midnight, but once all of that is done, I promise I'll catch up and become a contributing member of this game.

For now, I am removing my RVS vote.
UNVOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic

[Hikari Link]

Alright, guys, I'm finally going to start catching up. Hopefully it shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 hours for me to post.

[Hikari Link]

the quote is 50% and i actually didn't even remember that until after making that post!!!!!

i am very excited for this game!!!!!!!

LOOK AT ME! I CAN BE HAPPY TOO!
I CAN LOOK SUPER EXCITED AND STUFF!
OMGAWD, LOOK AT ME!
I'M SO EXCITED!

Yeah the emotion here seems really out of place here...

I like this!
But I'm wary of Alisae Caps since that Newbie game...

Also, I'm sad FB never responded to my page 1 response to him

Could you please explain your comment about Alisae Caps in that Newbie game? I'm trying to get a read on Alisae and I want to know if he has a history of using caps and exaggerating or feigning emotions to appear town.

[Hikari Link]

perhaps in Boys ♥ Boys's?

Wait, is that gonna be a thing? If so, can I request Traps ♥ Traps?

[Hikari Link]

FYI, I'm still working, guys. I'm barely on Nacho's first post directed at me back on 26. Luckily, I'm wide awake, so I'll keep on going. Just gonna be longer than initially expected.

[Hikari Link]

Titus, could you please explain to me the entirety of your current case against implosion? Trying to parse out your reasoning and that would be super helpful.

[Hikari Link]

Since Keyser Söze is already caught up (presumably through some sort of voodoo magic), I feel the need to reiterate that I'm still here and still working. Short of falling asleep at the keyboard, I won't be going to bed tonight (today, now, I guess) until I am caught up.

Just finished Nacho's third post for me. I keep going down various rabbit holes, as one post he links to leads to another that I need for context, then I need to read the posts *around* those posts. Then I need to ISO somebody to get a good feel for them. Point is, don't think I'm coasting here or ignoring the game just because I had earlier concerns. You guys are stuck with me until this game is over or I die.

[Hikari Link]

Alisae, do you still scumread Fro66er and Boonskiies or did that kerfuffle get resolved?

[Hikari Link]

Alisae, do you still scumread Fro66er and Boonskiies or did that kerfuffle get resolved?

It got resolved.

Thanks for letting me know. My question here still stands though.

[Hikari Link]

Alisae, looking at the Newbie game, I think I'm seeing what Aristophanes was talking about. But I am also seeing you get "loud" in town games, so I guess your statement that it's NAI is probably fair. I also saw you make the claim in that Newbie game that buddying is normal for you, regardless of alignment. Is that true?

[Hikari Link]

Hey, I've got very little experience with Neighbors. How often do they claim on Day 1? I just got to the claim and it feels highly unorthodox.

[Hikari Link]

Sorry, I think I'm going to have to go to sleep. I've been up for 22 hours and at this for about the last 10 (with breaks and distractions, mind you). This is my number one priority when I wake up though.

~ Me? 23 hours. And over the past 3 days: 8 hours of sleep total. It's barely past 5 in the afternoon and my body clock is having some real fucking nightmares right now. But I'm not complaining. I

could

be taking a nap right now. I

could've

slept more than I did. Y'know, like other people. And I'll probably go down at some point in the next hour or so. But first of all these papers need a little more grading, and second of all these other papers need just a touch more translating. So no reprieve yet. ~

[Hikari Link]

Holy shit Hikari go get some sleep, you're a fucking hero if you stayed up 10 hours just to approach this game, but you shouldn't let it take over your life.

Nah, it's cool. I had today off from school anyway. Also, I'm the definition of a fucking tryhard at everything I choose to do. It can't be helped. Fair warning: never consider the amount of effort I put in a game to be a downfall. I'll always give 115%.

Good night, guys.

[Hikari Link]

I'm awake. I'm back at it as soon as I've eaten something. Couple things first.

Titus, could you please explain to me the entirety of your current case against implosion? Trying to parse out your reasoning and that would be super helpful.

It's basically I cannot follow his Nacho read. The Nacho Implosion Tammy interactions don't make sense to me.

Yet, Alisae Ari interactions don't make sense either.

What parts of implosion's read do not make sense to you?

What about Nacho/Tammy/implosion's interactions don't make sense? Is it based on your experience with them or is it something more?

Same question for Alisae/Aristophanes.

Can you clarify these things further based on your

current

perspective though? I can't understand the reasons for your perspective if you don't explain them. Even if you feel you've explained them in the past, could you please reiterate them? I want to know if anything has changed. There's a couple things from you that bothered me so far and I want to see if any of them have changed.

Hey, I've got very little experience with Neighbors. How often do they claim on Day 1? I just got to the claim and it feels highly unorthodox.

This question is still relevant to my interests (this is not a soft claim, FYI).

[Hikari Link]

Again, I'm so sorry that this is taking so long. I'm really not trying to make excuses. Something unexpectedly important came up that I felt I needed to deal with, but I'm now 100% committed to catching up to this game. I'm currently at the beginning Fro66er's big wall.

[Hikari Link]

Why am I the only one here!?

I'm drinking a bad semester away

Sorry to hear that, man. Bad semesters are the worst.

[Hikari Link]

Why am I the only one here!?

I'm drinking a bad semester away

Sorry to hear that, man. Bad semesters are the worst.

Hey! Listen!

Spoiler: Navi

You need to post more content because other than you posting to aknowledge this fact I have seen nothing form you this game!

Like, the nullest of null!
And that No Es Bueno!

{Whoops, I broke the "Speak in English" rule...}

*hugs nancy again*

Yes, I'm aware of that. Like you, I'm still catching up to the game. Unlike you though, I'm consolidating everything into one large post that will show how I read the game when everything is all said and done. I've done so much skipping around at this point that I can't give an accurate read of a specific section like you and Keyser can. So you let me do my thing and I'll let you do yours.

I fully acknowledge that my catchup post is going to give everyone a null read of me, since I could easily just retroactively sheep the town. But once I'm caught up, I plan to become an active and productive player, so I will be much easier to read.

In the meantime, I want to socialize with people where possible. Playing well isn't my only goal here though. I'm genuinely hoping that I can make some friends in this game, since this seems like a group of cool people. In addition, I don't want to be perceived as a flake, because it hurts my chances of making friends, so I'm letting people know that I'm putting effort towards this game and I legitimately care. I feel it's especially important after earlier where I almost replaced out.

And please, nobody read into this paragraph as indication of my alignment one way or the other. I want to be clear that these are my genuine feelings. I'm not great at expressing my inner feelings in subtle or nuanced ways, so I'm just speaking out.

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler:

Why am I the only one here!?

I'm drinking a bad semester away

Sorry to hear that, man. Bad semesters are the worst.

Hey! Listen!

You need to post more content because other than you posting to aknowledge this fact I have seen nothing form you this game!

Like, the nullest of null!
And that No Es Bueno!

{Whoops, I broke the "Speak in English" rule...}

*hugs nancy again*

Yes, I'm aware of that. Like you, I'm still catching up to the game. Unlike you though, I'm consolidating everything into one large post that will show how I read the game when everything is all said and done. I've done so much skipping around at this point that I can't give an accurate read of a specific section like you and Keyser can. So you let me do my thing and I'll let you do yours.

I fully acknowledge that my catchup post is going to give everyone a null read of me, since I could easily just retroactively sheep the town. But once I'm caught up, I plan to become an active and productive player, so I will be much easier to read.

In the meantime, I want to socialize with people where possible. Playing well isn't my only goal here though. I'm genuinely hoping that I can make some friends in this game, since this seems like a group of cool people. In addition, I don't want to be perceived as a flake, because it hurts my chances of making friends, so I'm letting people know that I'm putting effort towards this game and I legitimately care. I feel it's especially important after earlier where I almost replaced out.

And please, nobody read into this paragraph as indication of my alignment one way or the other. I want to be clear that these are my genuine feelings. I'm not great at expressing my inner feelings in subtle or nuanced ways, so I'm just speaking out.

<3
I like you! We should indeed be friends! I still feel like calling you out was kosher, but I totally respect making a wallpost! I used to do that too!

I don't see you as a flake, I just wanted to poke you

If I were a dick I'd say you have four...five seconds to answer, but I'm not , so I won't

Spoiler:

[/quote]
Yay! I look forward to getting to know you.

Yeah, you had every right to call me out. Honestly, I feel like I might have come off a bit snippy there. I'm kind of frustrated because I feel like I'm going to be the last one caught up, even though I started trying to before you and Keyser. I'm gonna keep going at my own pace though. I've got to stay true to myself.

BTW, that's a really nice song. Anyway, back to it. Almost done with Fro99er's wall.

~ Removed Navi. ~

[Hikari Link]

You make me smile so Imma back off for now! catch up as you like

We can start our own obvtown catchup group and show these guys how it's done!!!

Also, you'll prolly be caught up before me at this rate, so I wouldn't worry about it! I'm hella slow!

I don't know, I did just spend 3 hours reading and analyzing a single post...

And just to let you know, I don't usually use emoticons, but that doesn't mean I'm not smiling too. I'm just kinda OCD about maintaining my writing abilities by sticking to strict spelling and grammar. And I don't know how emoticons should interact with words syntactically. Also, I never know when to use them. When I use them, they feel disingenuous. Not that I think other people are when they use them. I'm just so bad at being emotionally expressive.

Jesus fucking Christ... That was the most dorky paragraph I've ever said. I really am a socially awkward person in a lot of ways. I don't think I'm autistic, mind you. Just... odd?

Anyway, back to work.

~ Please be careful with stereotyping minorities. ~

[Hikari Link]

~ Please be careful with stereotyping minorities. ~

I'm very sorry if it seemed that way, it was definitely not my intent. I know autism is used as an insult on the internet and I didn't mean it in a disparaging way. I have nothing but respect for all people. I'm a Psych major (though developmental disorders aren't my field of expertise) and my understanding is that autism is typically characterized by difficulty with social interactivity. I was just saying that I, personally, I'm not on the autism spectrum (to my knowledge), I'm just an awkward person. Again, sorry if anyone felt offended.

Uhh...this didn't have an explicit ingame purpose except interaction, which can lead to reads, so Imma call this a post with a purpose and hope nancy agrees

Yeah, this post could be construed as unrelated too, so I'll just say that this was so people don't have a negative bias towards me because they think I am someone who is insensitive towards those with developmental disorders.

~ ♥ ~

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler:

You make me smile so Imma back off for now! catch up as you like

We can start our own obvtown catchup group and show these guys how it's done!!!

Also, you'll prolly be caught up before me at this rate, so I wouldn't worry about it! I'm hella slow!

I don't know, I did just spend 3 hours reading and analyzing a single post...

And just to let you know, I don't usually use emoticons, but that doesn't mean I'm not smiling too. I'm just kinda OCD about maintaining my writing abilities by sticking to strict spelling and grammar. And I don't know how emoticons should interact with words syntactically. Also, I never know when to use them. When I use them, they feel disingenuous. Not that I think other people are when they use them. I'm just so bad at being emotionally expressive.

Jesus fucking Christ... That was the most dorky paragraph I've ever said. I really am a socially awkward person in a lot of ways. I don't think I'm autistic, mind you. Just... odd?

Anyway, back to work.

~ Please be careful with stereotyping minorities. ~

Hi. I'm actually on the spectrum. Aspergers. May I hope to change your opinion of people like us.

Just want to make it clear that I don't have anything against people on the spectrum. I wasn't suggesting that all autistic people lack social skills or are odd. I know that it's possible for autistic people to be sociable, expressive people. I was just saying that I don't believe my lack of social skills is a result of autism or any other developmental disorder, but rather a result of either my innate temperament or the environment I was raised in. I was speaking about it from an entirely clinical perspective. Again, I'm very sorry if it sounded otherwise or if you or anybody else was offended.

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler:

You make me smile so Imma back off for now! catch up as you like

We can start our own obvtown catchup group and show these guys how it's done!!!

Also, you'll prolly be caught up before me at this rate, so I wouldn't worry about it! I'm hella slow!

I don't know, I did just spend 3 hours reading and analyzing a single post...

And just to let you know, I don't usually use emoticons, but that doesn't mean I'm not smiling too. I'm just kinda OCD about maintaining my writing abilities by sticking to strict spelling and grammar. And I don't know how emoticons should interact with words syntactically. Also, I never know when to use them. When I use them, they feel disingenuous. Not that I think other people are when they use them. I'm just so bad at being emotionally expressive.

Jesus fucking Christ... That was the most dorky paragraph I've ever said. I really am a socially awkward person in a lot of ways. I don't think I'm autistic, mind you. Just... odd?

Anyway, back to work.

~ Please be careful with stereotyping minorities. ~

Hi. I'm actually on the spectrum. Aspergers. May I hope to change your opinion of people like us.

Just want to make it clear that I don't have anything against people on the spectrum. I wasn't suggesting that all autistic people lack social skills or are odd. I know that it's possible for autistic people to be sociable, expressive people. I was just saying that I don't believe my lack of social skills is a result of autism or any other developmental disorder, but rather a result of either my innate temperament or the environment I was raised in. I was speaking about it from an entirely clinical perspective. Again, I'm very sorry if it sounded otherwise or if you or anybody else was offended.

Not offended. Hell, anyone in this thread, knows how I get when offended.

Let's get back to playing mafia. k?

Yeah, I'm fine with that. How about you answer my questions in #1,026 then?

[Hikari Link]

@Titus: What do you mean that you don't see Nacho and implosion melding? What do you make of Nacho's post where he breaks down his reads to me?

Also, can you reiterate who you read as scum and who you think is town? I know you're still sorting, but give me the best you've got, please.

[Hikari Link]

@Titus: He starts doing it here.

[Hikari Link]

I see that this will probably be a game where we fight a lot

Do I get it? Yes. Is this a good attitude to have? Not at all.

How so?

[Hikari Link]

I'm assuming you're looking for my alignment here and I don't know where it's to be found in that question. Nobody wants to fight and argue and consistently completely disagree with another town in a game that revolves around cooperation and consensus.

1. Where I'm currently at, I scumread your slot. Your vote on Boonskiies did nothing to help this.

2. I wanted to know why

you

felt this way and whether or not you were trying to use it to shade Nacho, if it was a legitimate concern, or if it was something I hadn't considered.

I agree that excessive strife among town is bad, but differing opinions among townies still has value. If everybody agrees on everything all the time, then scum is likely to win. And I'm not really convinced you are town yet anyway.

[Hikari Link]

840 - Why did you have your RVS vote on Gin for so long?

Just came upon this question. The answer is that because the last time I was around before unvoting, the game was 24 pages in, I was told nothing of value had happened yet, and I was so frazzled by the game that I was considering replacing out, so my RVS vote wasn't even on my mind. I went to sleep, woke up, decided to stay in the game, and unrealized my vote was still on from RVS.

[Hikari Link]

Also their 738 is just horridly wrong and completely misrepresenting events.

Hey, which post did you actually mean? Because that's a Tammy posy, not a Keyser post.

[Hikari Link]

@Alisae: What's your current stance on implosion? Who are your current scum and town reads? I don't imagine I'll hear from you before I post, but if I do, it might clarify some things for me.

[Hikari Link]

Can someone please clarify who is in which neighborhood?

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic mentioned "neighborhoods".]

Anyone?

I cannot see an all-scum neighborhood being in the game, but would suspect scum presence in one of them.

Names please.

So there is only 1 neighborhood in our game: [implosion-TheRealGin-N-Tonic]?
I'll likely rule them both out as a

scum-scum

for now.

@nancy - do scum have day-chat?

If it was a scum-scum "neighborhood," couldn't it just be scum falsely claiming neighbors at that point? Not that I think that's what is happening. I townread both of them.

[Hikari Link]

@Hikari - Neighbors generally claim Day 1, I feel. Neighbors are always suspicious of each other...too much noise keeping them up at night.

Thanks for letting me know. I've been pretty curious for a while and I don't think anyone else ever answered.

[Hikari Link]

@Keyser: You're fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying scum-scum would be stupid. But with that said, scum could just claim that they are neighbors, regardless of whether or not they actually are. We'd have no way of knowing until one flips. Granted, when they do flip, the other one is SOL.

[Hikari Link]

@Keyser: Could you link me to some of your recent scum games? I want to see if you ever fake confirmation bias.

[Hikari Link]

I'm caught up! Please don't do major shit before I post, or I'll be annoyed. Need to finish collecting my thoughts.

[Hikari Link]

Fucking done! Now, if you'll excuse me, I have class in an hour and I'm supposed to take an exam.

@Nacho: Thanks for the help. I don't mind meta and past games being used. I think there is some value to it, even though it's not foolproof. In case you thought otherwise, that wasn't my issue early on. Rather, the problem was that

I

couldn't follow the interactions between all of these people I don't know who know each other. It was fast-paced and seemed to revolve around so much prior knowledge that I didn't have. I'm used to playing in Mafia games where most people are relative strangers to each other.

My current reads, based on what I've read so far. tl;dr available for those who don't believe in reading wallposts.

Spoiler: Alisae = Town and Fro99er = Town

I had to put these two together because they are so strongly linked.

Alisae:

Nacho's argument from 602 and rb's from #04 are completely completely negated for me now that I've seen Ali's meta and know that he'll get angry regardless of alignment.

He

seems

quick to jump to conclusions. 244, 394, 651, and 889 are examples where he'll turn his vote on somebody in an instant, then proceed to tunnel them until a new target is acquired, at which point the old one is apparently discarded.

I think there's more to him though. His vote fell off Frog about the time that Frog was asking about vote counts and said that he was up to something. After that, he dialed back significantly. His imp vote was allegedly the result of nobody thinking Boon was scum, which is a fair reason to switch votes. Honestly not sure where he stands on imp right now, but he let Gin go as soon as Gin fully engaged him and explained the interaction between him and Frog. Nonetheless, he's definitely getting tunnel vision on a regular basis. This leads me to believe that while he isn't entirely irrational, he lets his emotions carry him away far too frequently.

Frog makes a somewhat compelling case for town Ali in his 673 wall too. His "expert" analysis on the subject shouldn't be discounted lightly. I don't think the issue is that he just

really

wants Ali to be town, because his actions so far show he's willing to take Ali on if he needs to. Frog seems like the more level-headed of the two, so Ali would probably have a hard time tricking him.

Fro99er:

His response to Nacho's scumread in 673 felt really off to me. Like, dude, I get that you're saying your intent wasn't scum-motivated, but when you literally never stated your reasons up until that point, how the hell could Nacho have possibly known them? It's not even scummy, it's just an ill-conceived statement. This is important, because it means that while Frog is allegedly playing analytically, he may not always fully think things through completely.

678 is interesting, because he actually has legitimate reason to think Gin would know his intent, even though Gin claims to have forgotten. As Gin points out later though, Frog doesn't even consider that Gin may have forgotten. If scum-motivated, I could see it. If town-motivated, it supports my theory of not thinking things through fully.

The whole interaction from Page 28 onward seemed like town vs. scum until it deescalated. I now think it's just two townies misunderstanding each other.

1. Alisae is scum and townFro99er is being hoodwinked.
2. Alisae is town and scumFro99er knows it, but is clearing him to gain towncred and manipulate Ali.
3. Both are town and just misunderstood each other at first, but are (more or less) on the same page now.
4. Both are scum and have planned this spat and makeup in order to get towncred.

Scenario 1 seems unlikely, because it requires really calculating play (not insulting Ali, that just that it feels like he plays based on his emotions).

Scenario 2 seems plausible, thought unlikely. Ali is self-admittedly emotional and prone to buddying. Frog has every chance to exploit that. But I feel he would've made an obvious mistake by now if that was the case, due to a lack of planning.

Scenario 3 seems likely, since nancy's request to not spam apparently changed Frog's playstyle from usual, leading to Ali feeling ignored.

Scenario 4 seems the least likely to me, but I don't want to discount it out-of-hand, lest I look foolish when it turns out that's exactly what happened. If they are both scum though, I feel like this would have to be pre-planned, rather than organic. Yet some of the stuff along the way feels very organic. Mostly Ali jumping on Boon for "chainsawing" and the exchange with Gin. And, as I've said, I don't think Frog's an expert gambiteer (yes, I just made that a word).

tl;dr: Alisae is probably town because Frog's argument was pretty good and there seems to be some thought behind who he's accusing.
Fro99er is probably town because I don't think he's an evil genius.

Spoiler: Aristophanes = Null

569 strikes me as a way to have the best of both worlds. He can buddy Titus, while maintaining the option to flip on her for competent play late game. On top of that, I don't even agree with the statement that Titus was on the ball. Maybe it's because I missed or didn't understand much of the early game, but nothing I've seen from Titus this game stands out as extraordinary or notable (no offense, Titus).

Other than that, his catch up posts haven't done a lot for me. They aren't scummy, but I don't really feel they are townie either. I think I need to see him catch up fully before I can get a proper read on him. Seems like his scumreads are pretty shaky (though I can get behind rb as scum).

tl;dr: Aristophales is null until he gives more content, but there's a hint of scuminess due to opportunistic buddying.

Spoiler: Boonskiies = Town

His early interactions with Ali are pretty good. At the time, I was reading Ali as scum too. He's held onto it for a long time past the point where I think it's reasonable to think Alisae's scum though, so that's slightly troubling.

I like his push in 849. Seems like he's trying to get things done. Don't agree with most of the reads he seems to have, based on 1030. Want to push him more on them once he's caught up.

I honestly don't get the hype. Feel like everybody townreads him so hard and I'm not sure why.

tl;dr: Boonskiies is probably town, but I don't get the hype.

Spoiler: Firebringer = Scum

Honestly, he doesn't add anything to the game early on. At least, as near as I can tell. His 854 doesn't feel genuine to me. Boon had to ask him 3 times before he got a response. And if he really did miss it, that implies to me a lack of attention being paid. Considering his lack of activity, it could be indicative of scum coasting. 977 is more of the same. That said, it's not a strong scum read. Coasting

can

occur in town, but I'd say it's generally anti-town, which is different from being scummy.

tl;dr: Firebringer is slightly scummy because I think he tried to dodge Boon's questions and he just seems to want to coast.

Spoiler: implosion = Town

I honestly believe imp's 635. I've been in his shoes before, making that kind of statement out of self-knowledge. When you make a bad play as scum, I feel like you'd typically either want to deescalate the situation by making up excuses that at least sound legitimate or by distracting from it in some way. Instead, he chose to make an argument that, by all rights, shouldn't convince anyone. It's plausible enough to be true, but so unverifiable that it would be almost useless for scum to make.

On top of that, his 78 reads town as fuck to me. I don't see a spy, even a clever one, faking a false memory, only to then pretend to realize that the thing he remembered never happened. Granted, he could have legitimately just have had a false memory as a spy, but I feel lie it would be harder to trigger that. And taken with 635 and the Neighbor claim, I feel really good about him as town.

tl;dr: implosion is probably town because some of his moves likely wouldn't reasonably come from scum.

Spoiler: Keyser Söze = Town

I can see where Nacho is coming from in 1022, and others have echoed that sentiment, I am inclined to disagree. While I don't agree with any of his conclusions, save for townBoon, I will say that his catchup seems like a genuine and at least seems to have a clear flow. Though I disagree with the conclusions, I feel like I can understand his thought process. Keyser basically seemed have tunnel vision on his current scumreads from the start. And there's blatant confirmation bias going on in the last paragraph of 945, particularly the last sentence. That feels genuine to me. Legitimate confirmation bias is pretty much only possible from town, since scum know when they are wrong and don't have any investment in their reads. And confirmation bias really isn't a good look on somebody, so I can't see scum wanting to blatantly fake it.

tl;dr: Keyser Söze's confirmation bias seems like it's coming from the perspective of somebody who doesn't know who scum is.

Spoiler: Nachomamma8 = Town

I like his mediation for Ali/Boon and Titus/imp. It'd be in his interest as scum to let them continue to squabble or jump on one of the two, rather than trying to make both sides see each other more clearly. It's interesting what Frog said about Nacho misrepresenting his sign-up post, but that seems so easy to contradict, so I feel that's an honest mistake, not a scum move. On a side note, now I'm terrified of a metagame where scum purposely misrepresent easily-verified past events in an effort to look town. Thanks, Nacho!

His interaction with Keyser right now is pretty good. He's pushing Keyser on all the right stuff and seems to be trying to overcome Keyser's confirmation bias.

While I deeply appreciate him being helpful to me, if he were scum, it would technically be within his best interest to keep me around. I'm the fish-out-of-water in this game and my early disorientation gives him an easy target to take advantage of. Granted, that's the most dickish move possible and I don't think Nacho is a dick. Still, I might get paranoid about that in the future, because I am occasionally inclined towards paranoia against people who I trust in these sorts of games. I almost always end up thinking I'm getting hoodwinked by cunning scum. So if I turn on Nacho (or any of my solid townreads) late in the game, everyone should probably disregard my accusations, unless they are grounded in solid evidence.

The first time we played together, if I recall correctly, he was a spy and tried to buddy me. Granted, that was 6 years ago, his playstyle may have changed, and I believe didn't fall for it that time, so I don't see why he'd think I'd fall for it this time (unless he forgot). Granted, that's exactly what he could hope I'm thinking. But I'm gonna WIFOM myself if I go down that rabbit hole, so let's just say it's unlikely for now.

tl;dr: Nachomamma8 seems like town because he mediates problems, sorts, and works with people who scumread him.

Spoiler: rb/prism = Scum

rb early game helped try to get things on track, it seemed. I personally appreciated that, but I kind of feel like his reasons might have had more to do with personal issues with the game itself.

Once the game started moving, he didn't really bring anything of value though, despite being a pretty active poster. His conflict with Gin didn't seem to come from a place of trying to understand Gin or be understood by him or anyone else. It felt like he was honestly just trying to get him riled up. And 845 is just such am anti-town mindset. It feels like he's basically saying "I'm fine with mislynching if I think a player is bad." And yet, three posts later in 848, he says that Fire's deliberate glibness is a reason nobody scumreads him. The inconsistency doesn't feel right.

Prism's vote on Boon seems scummy to me too. Without even catching up to the game, they're ready to lay down a vote. I don't think there is anything wrong with a little taunting about a pretty naked gambit.

Prism knowing they may not have internet access for the next couple days and still purposely leaving their vote on Boon, rather than just unvoting seems sketchy to me.

tl;dr: Prism appears to be scum because rb was active without providing much real content and Prism parked his vote on Boon without catching up, knowing he'd have limited access.

Spoiler: Tammy = Null

She's such a non-entity during the early periods that I read that it's frustrating. I'm getting a good feeling about her now that she's posting more regularly and actually seems to be trying to solve the game. Need more out of her to be sure though.

tl;dr: Tammy is starting to seem Town, but I need more useful content from her before I can make a full judgment.

Spoiler: TheRealGin-N-Tonic = Town

My favorite post from him is easily 876, which is a perfect condensation of his interaction with Frog and Ali. I already townread Gin before the exchange and felt frog and/or Ali had a good chance of being scum at the beginning of the exchange. But rather than taking advantage and making them look worse, Gin tried to work with them so that they could understand each other. He not only solidified my read on him, but made two other people look good in the process, when he could've just engaged it petty squabbling where he would've probably come out looking better. I know he enjoys getting fired up, but I actually think that calmGin is best Gin. He's on-point and pro-town as fuck. I'd say he's easily my strongest townread right now.

tl;dr: TheRealGin-N-Tonic is my strongest townread. He made himself look town while also working with others to make them look town.

Spoiler: Titus = Scum

The implosion tunnel is pretty suspect to me. Her reasoning seems to be based solely on 528. Problem is imp explained that sticking point in 573 and it's been referenced multiple times throughout this game (or maybe I've just read it a million times while researching for this post), with her being asked about it directly, and she still ignores it completely.

Other than that, her activity is actually pretty negligible and she's dodged many other questions throughout the game, which you can see if you ISO her.

tl;dr: Titus is my strongest scum read. She's had negligible activity, seems to dodge questions, and is still tunneling implosion, despite her primary claim against him being long disproved.
VOTE: Titus

[Hikari Link]

@Titus: What do you mean that you don't see Nacho and implosion melding? What do you make of Nacho's post where he breaks down his reads to me?

Also, can you reiterate who you read as scum and who you think is town? I know you're still sorting, but give me the best you've got, please.

@Titus: He starts doing it here.

Hmph. Not liking the vote on me while you know I am sorting.

Second, I mean those agreements Implosion talks about. I don't see two players in sync at all. I see Nacho retreating the moment after Implosion stops pushing Tammy.

I don't see much in Nacho's wall, particularly his Tammy read. He basically says town by meta and has nuance. It rings hollow given Tammy's basic state is nuance. There's nothing someone who isn't a meta hunter can engage with.

You've been "sorting" for an awful long time (pot calling the kettle black, admittedly). And in that time, you've dodged questions and basically been a non-entity.

Now, Gun to my head Implosion and Ari are my SRs. Could do Ali as well but I have two competing theories.

Are you taking the position townNacho's not competent enough to be able to tell between scumTammy and townTammy at this point? I just want to be clear where you stand on him, because it kinda sounds like you're shading him without reading him as scum.

[Hikari Link]

Now that a game is finally over, I'm pretty sure the Rb slot is scum. He replaces out more often as scum than town; he likes playing town more than he likes playing scum.

immmmmmmm no?

You realize he's likely talking about another game that just ended, right?

[Hikari Link]

Hikari can be town. Holy fuck.

Could you elaborate what you mean by this? Because I'm not clear what your intent is.

Do you mean I have the potential to be town? Are you saying you read me as town? Something else? And what is the "holy fuck" of it?

[Hikari Link]

You realize he's likely talking about another game that just ended, right?

I did not at the time of posting that, no. Your statement was sufficiently vague that I misunderstood your intent.

[Hikari Link]

yeah, one that came afterwards. Scum. get ready for the Boon wrath. Oi, did not expect to have to do this toDay. This is going to take a few hours now.

Whats your point? Yeah, I missed a post, its not that "ignored part of your post and misrepresent you", I literally skipped the post.

But w/e. I am going to continue voting you.

So what is your reasoning for voting Boon then?

[Hikari Link]

I'm feeling a lot of anger on both sides here. Can we all relax for a second and talk about this rationally instead of posting 5 times a minute?

[Hikari Link]

Please stop. This bickering isn't making me want to take either of you seriously and it's happening so fast that it's hard to keep up.

[Hikari Link]

I'm gonna need some time to process this Boon/Fire fight to see if it seems there are any scum motivations or if it's town vs. town. The whole exchange has me questioning my reads on both of them.

Hikari can be town. Holy fuck.

Could you elaborate what you mean by this? Because I'm not clear what your intent is.

Do you mean I have the potential to be town? Are you saying you read me as town? Something else? And what is the "holy fuck" of it?

Your post 1131 was towny as fuck

Could you elaborate on why you feel that?

[Hikari Link]

1086 - @Hikari I hope you don't mind me getting back to you on this. I want implosion to address some of my own concerns first.

Sure, that's fine. But what about your reads on other people? Ignore this if you posted them already.

[Hikari Link]

That's actually a pretty good post.

Can you elaborate on why you think it's good?

[Hikari Link]

@Boon: How often do you claim to be conftown when you are playing town? How about when you are playing scum?

[Hikari Link]

Alright. I'm willing to call Ari town for 1414-15.

Unvote

VOTE: Titus

idk how much longer i'll be awake if other people are here. somewhere between 0-75 minutes.

What about those posts made you willing to label Ari town? Also, can you briefly explain your Titus vote?

[Hikari Link]

Alright. I'm willing to call Ari town for 1414-15.

Unvote

VOTE: Titus

idk how much longer i'll be awake if other people are here. somewhere between 0-75 minutes.

What about those posts made you willing to label Ari town? Also, can you briefly explain your Titus vote?

I'm not sure if scum-aristophanes is capable of talking in that brazen of a way about his meta in a game like this in a way that sounds that genuine. The last line of 1414 sounds much more like at-ease town aristophanes than what I think i'd expect from him as scum. I think I'd expect a more curt answer from scum-aris. Him saying "I can't think of a single other that breaks this meta" is something that I find somewhat unlikely from him as scum who is breaking that meta in this game.

Titus is one of the people I'm not yet townreading, and nacho's voting her and i'm content to sheep him with nowhere that excites me to put my vote.

I just realized that genuineness is a funny thing in Mafia. Everybody has their own idea of what it is, they all know it when they see it, and they are less likely to put stock in somebody's idea of it. I can see your argument though, based on what I've heard about him in this thread.

So what do your reads look like right now? If you could list and explain them a bit, I'd appreciate it.

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler: @nancy

The thing with getting crushes on other lesbians is.. you're always pretty much terrified of it breaking you.

Because unlike with other dynamics, there's this connection between lesbians that's.. kind of impossible to articulate.

And yet it makes perfect sense. Because it's something that lives inside you. It's always been there.

It's a connection that in many ways makes you know who you are.

And you're giving all of that to another person.

And if you're friends with the person you're crushing on? Close friends?

Not only are you putting yourself on the line.. you risk losing the intimacy of that friendship.

Because reciprocation is far from guaranteed. And when it isn't.. it can get ugly.
It can make you feel that you've lost parts of yourself.

And there so often seem to be no reasons at all why this would find you.

This: the connection.

You're so used to feeling alone, that intimacy seems alien.

Something you maybe doubt you've ever seen.
Something of which you're only allowed glimpses.
Something that has broken you in the past.

And confronting that is terrifying.

But god.. when you do.
When it's reciprocated.
When you give yourself to another lesbian, and they give themselves back..

There's nothing in the world that comes close.

Do you write these yourself? Because they're nice.

~ Yup. It's a subject I deeply care about. Hence the overall theme of this series (this game is part 1). PM if you'd like to say more. ~

[Hikari Link]

I just had a sudden revelation about myself and the way I handle games and my life, so my playstyle is probably about to change drastically. I don't even know how it'll change yet, because I'm still processing it, but I'll catch up and do what I can as soon as I can.

[Hikari Link]

My biggest SR is HL. They are in a bus position and feel radically different from the game we just finished. Then again, the game was pretty solved at the point they came in.

What do you mean? I'm in a position to bus who?

[Hikari Link]

Okay, should be good to post tomorrow. Have some homework to work on, but I'll try to find the time for this game. Don't want to fall too far behind again.

[Hikari Link]

Did someone replace?

[Hikari Link]

Alright, so I'm just going to go through and respond to things in the order I read them. Hopefully it doesn't lead to too much redundancy.

[Hikari Link]

Boon seems like he misrepped the fuck out of Firebringer. A lot. And he kept saying Firebringer was scum with such confidence so many times. Plus, his constant referring to himself as confirmed town bothers me. That absolutism doesn't sit well with me.

As for Firebringer, his relative uselessness for the whole time and his willingness to permavote Boon, even when he admitted Boon was probably town, is super suspect.

Though it did get heated. Like, really heated, regardless of what either party said, there was some heat there. It honestly didn't help me read either and it killed my motivation to read the game for several days. Boon definitely looked the worse of the two, but that's probably because I have much lower expectations of Firebringer at this point, based on his current contributions. I hear he picks up after Day 1 though, so I'll be expecting more from him if he sticks around before I make any further judgments on his usefulness.

Ultimately, I'm unsure on both, but Boon looks scummier. Somebody present a case why he's not scummy, because I don't see how he's the towniest town that ever towned.

@Firebringer:

After this game is over, there's something I want to ask you about your playstyle. I'll try to remember, but please try too, cause I'm forgetful. Hopefully, one of us will remember.

Now I really should do my homework. Get back to it later. Maybe nit until tomorrow, because there is a lot of ground to cover.

[Hikari Link]

Firebringer: After this game is over, there's something I want to ask you about your playstyle. I'll try to remember, but please try too, cause I'm forgetful. Hopefully, one of us will remember.

we can go over this now anyways,

I am scumreading you anyways so it's not like I'll be offended

No, it's not about offense. It's something I'd rather wait for though.

And as for the scumread, what's your reasoning?

[Hikari Link]

QUESTION TIME FOR THOSE EXCEPT FIRE:

Do you think Boon could have faked that bravado during the arguments?

It's all text. I think anybody can fake anything.

[Hikari Link]

QUESTION TIME FOR THOSE EXCEPT FIRE:

Do you think Boon could have faked that bravado during the arguments?

It's all text. I think anybody can fake anything.

Well, not

anything

. But in terms of emotions.

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler: @Firebringer

Firebringer: After this game is over, there's something I want to ask you about your playstyle. I'll try to remember, but please try too, cause I'm forgetful. Hopefully, one of us will remember.

we can go over this now anyways,

I am scumreading you anyways so it's not like I'll be offended

No, it's not about offense. It's something I'd rather wait for though.

And as for the scumread, what's your reasoning?

I've explained it, I didn't like you being middle person between boon and me and your reaction to it all.

Okay. Not sure if that came later or if I just skimmed it while rereading you bicker. Either way, both of you seemed to be getting into a spammy, emotional battle that really seemed to have more to do with a disagreement about rb's motivations for replacing, rather than the game itself. I don't mind too people arguing, but when it gets bitter and repetitive like that, it makes other people bitter and makes the game less fun.

Spoiler: @Alisae

QUESTION TIME FOR THOSE EXCEPT FIRE:

Do you think Boon could have faked that bravado during the arguments?

It's all text. I think anybody can fake anything.

I hate this response. I know it's probably true in the end, but I just hate it lmao. Seems like Hikari is trying to dodge the question here for no real reason.

It's not meant to dodge the question. It's legitimately what I think. The reason I like forum-based Mafia is because I can compose myself and pick my words carefully. When I talk in real life, I have a hard time gathering my thoughts and feel rushed. The reason I hate it though is because everybody else can do that and it makes it harder to tell what's real and what's fabricated.

Spoiler: @Tammy

Can you elaborate? Both in terms of why the reasoning is why and why it is indicative of experience or alignment, please.

QUESTION TIME FOR THOSE EXCEPT FIRE:

Do you think Boon could have faked that bravado during the arguments?

It's all text. I think anybody can fake anything.

Well, not

anything

. But in terms of emotions.

there's a lot of things that people can and do fake, but there are some behaviors that people don't and won't due to alignment. His scum game shows him being far more in control than the town games I've seen of him.

But, I'm pretty good at reading Arthur, so boon skies shouldn't matter too much to my read there.

What are some of these things that people don't and won't do? Because the only stuff I can't see being faked is stuff that'd be really elaborate to fake, in terms of emotions.

Seriously, guys, my homework awaits. I won't be able to engage with your response until I fully catch up, because I'm imagining it's going to get lost in the shuffle again.

[Hikari Link]

School time. I'll try to continue where I left off and poke my head in when I can, but I keep falling behind the game and may need to replace out because it's such an active game. I'd rather avoid that though, since we've already had a couple replacements and I feel like that creates chaos and makes the game harder to read for everybody involved, much like my recent game that ended with imp and Titus.

[Hikari Link]

God, how am I already 41 pages behind? I legitimately don't know how to effectively scumhunt in a game that moves this quickly. Just from my random check-ins on recent posts throughout the last couple days, I can see that there are various responses to my questions and questions to me, but I feel like just skimming everything else is going to affect my ability to sort people.

What strategies do you guys implement to keep up with games that move at this pace? I don't want to replace out (I'm actually really liking the players here), but I'd rather not drag everyone down because I keep falling behind. I imagine if I survive until later in the game, it'll be easier, since we'll have some flips to deal with and hopefully some useful PR results. But what can I do right now to be a quicker, more efficient asset?

[Hikari Link]

Erm that is something I've been trying to work out for the really quick games I play.

Look at the wagons and iso the top wagon getters? ISO your strongest scum reads?

I sometimes skim and pay attention to what my strong town reads are doing and what their reading and try to balance out myself with their thoughts and reads.

ISOing is really useful for certain things, but sometimes it can be really harmful to do that and deprive the person of context. Granted, you can click on certain posts and look at the posts around it, but without the natural flow of the game, I feel like it still degrades the reads. Might be that I'm just too much of a perfectionist though (which I am), so it kills me not to absorb all info and consider every angle. But maybe that's good practive for me to become better at relinquishing control and taking things less seriously.

I was thinking something along the lines of putting faith in my stronger townreads and trusting their judgment. The thing I dislike about that is just because I townread somebody doesn't mean they are town or correct. I've always been naturally more inclined to lead than follow, but after my personal revelation, I wonder if it might not be a good idea to take the backseat more often. Or to find a way to strike a balance between the two.

By the way, that revelation was in the recently finished game with implosion and Titus, for those interested. This is the specific post where I had my epiphany, though there was a fair amount of buildup to it.

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler:

My general method for keeping up with games is to read everything (and not be worried about actually keeping up with it) and then reading things if they catch my interest later, but I usually end up behind in "what I intend to post" as opposed to "what I intend to read".

Yeah, that's what I feel like I've been doing so far and what my general strategy is. I just worry that it isn't helpful because people can't get a read on me, I can't get a full read on everyone else, and I can't help people get a read on everyone else. But this might go back to my own arrogance and need for control. I feel like what I have to add to games is so valuable that I must get it out there as quickly as possible, otherwise people could make bad choices without my input or I could die and my input would be forever lost.

But that's part of me that I dislike so much and made me come to that realization, so I have the knee jerk reaction of wanting to discard that attitude. At the same time, it's so ingrained into me that it feels wrong to just get rid of that part of me. And I worry that by overcompensating, I'll still be a bigger detriment than I would've been if I just stayed the way I am. On one hand, winning is fun and I feel like people enjoy winning. On the other hand, I feel like I can suck the fun out of a game and that's not something I ever find acceptable, regardless of my alignment. I don't personally believe in fun at the undue expense of others (i.e. emotional manipulation, inducing anger, attempts to hurt feelings, etc.)

All of that is fair!

Isoing does deprive context and makes it suboptimal.

Just following town reads also *can* be suboptimal because yes just because they're town doesn't mean they're right.

They're definitely imperfect solutions to trying to catchup in a game moving faster than you can dedicate to every post, but for day one at least it can be a stop-gap measure.

Some people take the view that as long as their town reads aren't lynched day one, they don't really care who is lynched since it's almost always a mislynch anyway, that's an imperfect view to have also, but it's one some players take.

And suboptimal play is what I typically try to avoid in pretty much every type of game I play. But sometimes maybe sometimes suboptimal play is the most optimal play under the right (or, more aptly, wrong) conditions. I suppose time constraints, lack of experience, lack of information, and things of that nature can make it so that your best bet is not to make the best move.

Disclaimer:

As I've said with a couple of my previous posts where I've attempted to give you guys a transparent view of my thought process, please don't loo st this as alignment indicative. I have no desire to appeal to anyone's emotions or create a specific image of me. This is just self-disclosure that I feel is necessary.

My intent is helping you guys understand me better as a player, both in this game and in future games, as well as to discuss these sorts of things so I can grow as a player and be of greater use. I simply discuss them in-game, rather than elsewhere because I feel they are intrinsically tied to the events of this game and as such, should not be discussed elsewhere. On top of that, I feel there is inherent game value in being able to understand the mind of your fellow players.

That said, feel free to believe or disbelieve anything I've said here if you think it is for the purposes of manipulating you. It's something we can discuss later. I won't make some sort of claim here on my honor as a player or a person. I recall once having to be force-replaced (nearly modkilled) for something similar once back when I used to play here and I'd rather not risk it now.

[Hikari Link]

Okay, what I'm going to try to do in the next couple days then is respond to anything that was directed to me in the past 40 pages, see where my townreads stand on things, try to stay at least semi-engaged, look at Keyser's meta that I asked for previously and never got around too, and analyze the current wagons.

@implosion: Definitely don't let that part of yourself control your read. I fully believe that you should never trust me fully. This benefits me as both roles. As town, by telling people not to fully trust me, I'm less likely to be night killed. As scum, I'm less likely to be lynched (and seemingly counter-intuitively, I feel I'm generally less likely to be investigated with PRs). There're other facts at play too, but suffice it to say, it's fairly win-win for me.

And I'll tell you right now that integrity is my meta. Feel free not to believe my self-meta, though if you look at my old games, I would always espouse my self-meta truthly. That's because my primary meta goal used to be consistency in behavior regardless of my role. Consistency through quality work and truthfulness is still important to me, but the most important thing to me is respect towards other players and playing the game with integrity. I used to be a real piece of shit to deal with because I was extremely arrogant, overly opinionated, and at times abusive (and I still can be all of those things at times, despite my best efforts). But I want to grow as a person and a player, so if anybody isn't having fun because I'm being disrespectful or doing something that lacks integrity, then I am failing as both.

Off Topic:

Spoiler:

I love you all

~ Awwww I wubs you too <3 ~

I hope this includes me.

Also, I notice Ali has a cute, new avatar.

[Hikari Link]

Yeah, you're probably right, Nacho. But one can still have too much arrogance in this game. I've definitely seen it out of players that I have very little respect for. It's especially bad when arrogance completely overrides open-mindedness. One reason I want to understand that is to be able to tell when arrogance seems to be genuinely town-motivated, rather than calculated by scum.

[Hikari Link]

I hope this includes me.

If you're asking me? Yes!! I love everyone here to bits! (Except Aristophanes, obviously.)

* Wow, mean!! *

I meant Firebringer. But I'll take your love too. You can never have too much love.

[Hikari Link]

As I said before, I'm gonna try to to respond to all of the posts directed at me while I was gone. I'll try to at least skim every post, but 40+ pages is a fuckton. Please let me know if I miss anything.

For now, I have a few questions so I can be up to speed while I catch up.

1. What was the crux of the argument for the Keyser lynch?

2. How did the Titus wagon deteriorate?

3. Prism, what was your reasoning behind voting Gin?

4. Ari, what was your reasoning behind voting SAD?

[Hikari Link]

Do cat massage videos exist as well?

Does this count?

[Hikari Link]

The amount of votes on Titus is really sad, we need more

That's why I asked why the wagon deteriorated. What changed that turned the tide from Titus to Keyser?

[Hikari Link]

Also hoping hikari link starts working on thread stuff and being an active sorter of the game and not just talking so many theory-ish points, what he's going to do, etc.

Also hoping prism makes some actual game strides today.

Well, I was gonna work on that stuff yesterday, until a damn lynch materialized behind my back. Still, that's a fair request from me. Expect content from me today (Day 2, not May 11th) or I'll replace out. I don't do lurking. It'll have to come tomorrow/Saturday though. My schedule during the week is generally pretty busy, so I don't have big blocks of time to read everything that's happened (and as I've said, this is an abnormally active game, so keeping up is hard), but my weekends are much freer and this game will be top priority during this weekend.

[Hikari Link]

I'm not saying you should replace out! You are just a question mark, and I need to clear that one up to see if there are scum in my town reads.

I understand I've been a question mark in this game, which is extremely unusual for me as a player (regardless of alignment, I usually get townreads to hell and back) and why I've had a general feeling of frustration with myself all game. I'm not saying you are saying I should replace out. I'm saying that if I can't add anything of value to the game, I feel that I should replace out. I don't believe in lurking as a strategy and I refuse to drag a game down. But I also don't believe in being a flake or imposing unnecessary burden on others, that's why I have no desire to replace out (aside from also just liking the players and mod here).

[Hikari Link]

Hikari, my vote was on SAD because I never moved it off of Boon

But why? Was he still your top scumread? Was he ever? I'm sorry, I can't remember off the top of my head why you voted Boon, but I thought it happened around his fight with Fire.

[Hikari Link]

I'm about to start catching up, but I had to comment because I'm fucking incredulous here. I refuse to believe that somebody named Desperado was randomly assigned the role of Desperado in that game, Ali.

[Hikari Link]

So um...
What's my incetive for doing this as scum besides wasting time when we have 14 days to decide on a lynch, so it's not really wasting time.

You're full of shit.

If you were a desperado, you making the statement you quoted would have counted already. Now you're mechanics before bullshitting everyone.

Novice can't activate Day 1.

[Hikari Link]

I have no idea what is going on in this game right now

The unfortunate thing is that these replacements really make me want to replace as well. It's killing my desire to continue when it feels like every other day, somebody new is getting shuffled into the mix. I won't do that to nancy though, especially not after this. Apologies if my play suffers, but this game is emotionally draining.

@Ali & Frog:

I'll miss you guys! Hope to see you around.

[Hikari Link]

I would rather both of you didn't replace out.

[Hikari Link]

Just FYI, SAD, I'm a dude.

[Hikari Link]

Just FYI, SAD, I'm a dude.

Oops I'm sorry

In my defense I will use the Creature quote "if I misgender you it's probably because you have a girly avatar".

No worries. No excuses necessary. I just thought I'd let you know, because I've seen you call me a girl a few times.

Also, the avatar is a light Link (Hikari means light in Japanese) riding my favorite character from MLP (I'm a brony). That's that solved.

[Hikari Link]

(I'm a brony).

CALLED IT

*Brohoof*

Spoiler: ♥

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler: Off Topic Brony Stuff

I know some cool bronies, do you dress up?

I do not. I mostly just enjoy the show, though I've dabbled in some of the fan media. Like some music, played the card game for a couple months, have played multiple tabletop RPGs (and even tried to make my own), and went to a convention once.

So what if we lynched desperado before he showed up?
Who is down for that besides me

Why would anybody be in favor of this?

[Hikari Link]

Is this what shitposting is? Because if so, I've misjudged it. I'm not gonna lie, it's actually really lightening up the mood for me.

~ How

dare

your mood be lightened. This is mafia. This is serious business. ~

[Hikari Link]

I kind of think he is town too.
I am just not dealing with his attitude and I am not replacing out.

There's no ignore button for this game.


Alisae is probably scum.
Implosion feels more townie now than before.
Hikari is now in my scum pile.

I don't get the thing with Titus but I don't think I will.

Why am/was I in your scum pile?

[Hikari Link]

Never mind. You got asked that later.

[Hikari Link]

Actually fire can you explain the scum Hikari thing?

When me and boon we're going at it, he felt like the awkward scum that didn't know what to do in situation.
The scum who hate watching TvT but don't really want to stop it because they are scum but still make a half attempt to be peacekeeper.

I wasn't the only person that asked you guys to stop. It was obnoxious, spammy, and clearly heated. Cooler heads needed to prevail and an actual dialogue needed to occur. You guys were talking past each other, not to each other. It doesn't matter what I alignment I play (I have no meta to back this up), I don't like arguments to take a personal turn in a game. I feel like it kills the motivation of everyone in the game.

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler: Titus

@Titus: What do you mean that you don't see Nacho and implosion melding? What do you make of Nacho's post where he breaks down his reads to me?

Also, can you reiterate who you read as scum and who you think is town? I know you're still sorting, but give me the best you've got, please.

@Titus: He starts doing it here.

Hmph. Not liking the vote on me while you know I am sorting.

Second, I mean those agreements Implosion talks about. I don't see two players in sync at all. I see Nacho retreating the moment after Implosion stops pushing Tammy.

I don't see much in Nacho's wall, particularly his Tammy read. He basically says town by meta and has nuance. It rings hollow given Tammy's basic state is nuance. There's nothing someone who isn't a meta hunter can engage with.

Why do you have to be done sorting for her to put a vote on you? I'd say we're all still in the process of sorting, so should nobody be voting? Why can't he just scum read you?

I feel like in the second paragraph you're doing that thing you do where you ignore people's explanations and push a narrative of something that didn't happen and is not happening without assessing what is actually going on.

You do not have to agree on every single thing to be "in sync", and you keep pushing that bit which is not a big part of the read anyway. Nacho was joking with his vote on implosion in the first place; this is exactly what he did in Gay Mafia when Hiplop was voting me. He wasn't scum reading hiplop at the time, he was making a point about hiplop's bad scum read on me. Same thing here with implosion.

If you are town, you are misreading/misunderstanding and are ignoring the posts people have made setting that straight. If implosion is scum, it's not because of that because his early game interaction with me is very similar to the last game we played together. Here is his iso from that game. You can see him interacting with me in a very similar way as town in his first few posts: viewtopic.php?t=62686&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

If he's scum, he's just trying to mimic that interaction. (I'm leaning town at the moment; I'm just trying to point out that the interaction is null as far as I'm concerned.)

I am worried that you saw the beginning of a town group forming and are trying to break that up, which is something that I normally think is stupid, but it's something I am concerned about here.

I don't understand your problem with town read on me from nacho. And I don't understand why you're acting like it's something you can't touch or prod. You can still ask him questions. You can still ask me questions. It feels wrong that if it's something you don't trust or can't understand that you're not poking at it or trying to understand.

pedit: Not gonna lie, I know that's a fake, but still my heart dropped with sadness for a split second before I chuckled.

First, if HL knows I am sorting, it implies they know I am town, as scum don't have to sort anyone.

You can say I am misreading things but when reality conflicts with players literal text to me, I am going to have a scumread. To me, it looks like Nacho scumread implosion and backed off the moment Implosion TRed you.

It also feels Nacho decided you were town before you set foot in the thread.

It's D1 and I am open to being wrong, but replies like yours that essentially say plug your nose to our circle jerk are not helpful. I am curious about your other reads.

Wow, that's a bit of a misrepresentation of what I said. Would you have preferred the more skeptical "I know you claim you are still sorting..."? Also, scum can attempt to create a facsimile of sorting, even if they already know everything.

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler: Titus 2: The Streets

@Titus: What do you mean that you don't see Nacho and implosion melding? What do you make of Nacho's post where he breaks down his reads to me?

Also, can you reiterate who you read as scum and who you think is town? I know you're still sorting, but give me the best you've got, please.

@Titus: He starts doing it here.

Hmph. Not liking the vote on me while you know I am sorting.

Second, I mean those agreements Implosion talks about. I don't see two players in sync at all. I see Nacho retreating the moment after Implosion stops pushing Tammy.

I don't see much in Nacho's wall, particularly his Tammy read. He basically says town by meta and has nuance. It rings hollow given Tammy's basic state is nuance. There's nothing someone who isn't a meta hunter can engage with.

You've been "sorting" for an awful long time (pot calling the kettle black, admittedly). And in that time, you've dodged questions and basically been a non-entity.

Now, Gun to my head Implosion and Ari are my SRs. Could do Ali as well but I have two competing theories.

Are you taking the position townNacho's not competent enough to be able to tell between scumTammy and townTammy at this point? I just want to be clear where you stand on him, because it kinda sounds like you're shading him without reading him as scum.

VOTE: HL

Holy fuck this post is terrible.

Calling me a non-entity and dodging questions is a load of horse manure. I have been driving and sorting and asking questions. I sort based on group dynamics and how players treat each other.

The total misrepresentation of my read as Nacho isn't comptent enough to read Tammy is just terrible. He IS competent enough to read Tammy. He is also better at describing things and communicating why slots are the way they are and appearing genuine.

Can we just talk about terrible posts for a minute?

I mean, first, you certainly felt like a non-entity to me. And I don't recall you ever once answering for the misrepresentation on implosion where he said "it started with gut, then..." I mean, that seemed to be your case for quite some time, even several people pointed out that your argument didn't make sense.

Also, I never misrepresented your Nacho read. I asked you whether you were taking a position. Based on what I read, that seemed like the position you were taking. I never once said "you're scum because you don't think Tammy is competent enough to read Nacho." or anything of the sort. If I'm unclear on what a statement means, I'll repeat it back in my own words to make sure that I understand the meaning. It's a technique called mirroring and is an important component of listening.

[Hikari Link]

Ok, I am at the bottom of 55.

Pretty sure HL is scum based on the lack of substantive interaction they have with Fire/Boon but calling it T v T.

You have to have substantive interaction with people to call an argument T v T? I saw what looked like a pretty genuine fight between two people.

On one hand, Boonskiies was misrepresenting the hell out of Fire and asserting repeatedly that he was town and Fire was scum, both of which are actions I tend to think are pretty scummy. But the venom was so real there that I could believe it coming from town.

On the other hand, Firebringer seemed truly offended that Boon would imply that rb would ever replace out for impure reasons and absolutely refused to take his vote off Boon as long as Boon remained in the game, even though he acknowledged Boon was probably town. Parking your vote permanently on somebody for non-game reasons is anti-town as hell. But it's such a blatant move, that it's entirely conceivable (and probable) that it came from angry town.

Of the two, Boon looked worse, since he was the one turning a clearly non-alignment fight into something about alignment. Made me worry that he might have been scum faking his anger to push a lynch, look like angry town, or throw Firebringer off balance. But after looking at the Happenings on the first page after the lynch, I saw that Boon was actually force-replaced. After so many warnings for his conduct, I feel like if he was scum faking it, he would've just reigned it in and stopped poking at it. It's only through true anger that I could see Boon losing his cool so thoroughly. And I don't see why he would be that angry as scum.

[Hikari Link]

Hmm. Okay I actually like that answer even though I still got the feel frogger was role fishing for the vig earlier.

Anyway, it's prob for the best I claim now - I vigged implosion last night.

(I do also have a modifier that I have no interest in claiming right now)

Why was he your target?

[Hikari Link]

Because I thought he was scum...

implosion was your strongest scumread? Remember, I'm behind on this game, so I don't think I've seen the majority of your posts. Just want to make sure I understand your claim here.

[Hikari Link]

Damn! I'm on 65 and just realized I've fallen into the habit of thoroughly reading every post again. I wish people could consistently spell my name right, then I could just search for instances where I'm mentioned. I'll just do what I can then.

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler:

Hikari can be town. Holy fuck.

Could you elaborate what you mean by this? Because I'm not clear what your intent is.

Do you mean I have the potential to be town? Are you saying you read me as town? Something else? And what is the "holy fuck" of it?

Your post 1131 was towny as fuck

You can go back to the newbie queue or scum PT. That post was horrible.

There are two things I have to say about this post (and because I skimmed while out I saw the conversation after).

This is why rb's treatment of nacho wigged me so much. Now I don't know what rb's experience with Titus is, but fire bringer seemed like he was suggesting that they always argue. And Titus, you know I love you so this is not an insult, but I know very few people at this site more arrogant than Titus. So him talking about nacho like nobody could deal with him because he was so arrogant and rude and insulting but playing lovey-dovey with Titus feels all kinds of wrong.

Oh there are three. This is an insult by the way. And this is the type of thing that feels so damn posturey from you. And considering that people often dismiss things you say because moonlogic, you should know what this is.

This type of thing does absolutely nothing to further the game state or develop reads. People do not agree on the same things for what makes people look like town or scum, and you know this. Why couldn't you just say why the post was bad from your point of view. It doesn't look like a misrep to me. You haven't been driving the game, and asking questions doesn't make you an entity. You might be sorting behind the scenes, but that doesn't come across through the thread.

My main problems with you are lack of engagement with the game. You don't seem like you're trying to solve it. Sure you do ask questions here and there or pop in to make some remarks, but the majority of your reads still seem focused on the first three pages of the game. (Maybe you do work off thread, I do too so I get it that not every thought is going to be posted in the thread, but there's no evidence of that.) How would Hiraki know that you scum hunt based on group dynamics? How would he know you're sorting? That is not evident.

You don't know my experience but I have to argue with rb? I don't think so.

Nobody suggested I argued Nacho was arrogant Tammy. I said he's better at explaining things more than I know Tammy, she's town. It makes me feel odd that you'd say that.

Third, I have been solving and very engaged with this game. I just had real life yesterday and reaching out to people who'll help me. Rb for me is on that list. You know why? Because when he picks up something different about me, I don't shade him for it. I still sort him.

The last part is what I highlighted. How does Hiraki know that I am sorting and yet shade me as if I am not?

@Frogger, I literally just did a post on why Hiraki's post was bad today. Please don't pretend that I am not engaging and ignore my posts. K thanks?

Bolded for emphasis (Tammy was saying she likes context, so I'll leave the rest in):

That's a different accusation than before, isn't it? When did I claim you weren't sorting when you claimed you were? And what reason should I have to believe you when you could be lying?

[Hikari Link]

I have called you hiraki almost every single time. Sorry, I know what it is, but there is another player named hiraki and I think I just mix up the names :/

Yeah, I know about him. I've played with him. People usually mix up our names.

@nancy:Would it be possible for me to replace in with my alt? I wanted to start using it as my main soon anyway.

[Hikari Link]

I just skimmed over inception and fuck titus if you don't feel similar to there in some ways. Like if you're town please show it toute de suite.

Spoiler: ♥

Sorry, I lack the obvtown and give a fuck gene at the moment. I feel that you are more bothered by me not being able to call you locktown. I hate d1 and I try to avoid tunnelling right now or dealing with players that annoy me.

My biggest TR is Firebringer.

My biggest SR is HL. They are in a bus position and feel radically different from the game we just finished. Then again, the game was pretty solved at the point they came in.

Frogger is probably town. I don't see Frogger reacting the way he did as scum. Still annoyed that what I said to him sent a different message. Too attached to his reads, but that happens a lot on ms lately so I basically try to tune out until I solve it unless I can't.

Alisae might be scum. I dunno. I wish our hydra had been town.

Bold for emphasis:
Not sure if you answered my bus position question earlier (though based on the last theory I saw from you, I'm assuming you mean Boon). Can you elaborate on how I was "radically different"? And I realize you said that the game was pretty much solved and that may have been a factor, but I assume there was some meaning behind my radical difference in play or you wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler: Titus 3: Third Strike (I realized I didn't number a bunch of these)

I've stated reads on literally everything in this game.

Yes. But those reads are filtered through Fire scum. Your reflexive impulse to just murder me for knowing Fire is town also isn't townie.

I literally just wrote a guide on this. No one reads shit fests that go on past two pages. You're at 10. If you refuse to even consider an alternative viewpoint, then you are acting against town, and you can die.

Say, Alisae/Gin/Hiraki, pick one as scum in a fire town universe.

P-edit - Whining for 3 posts in a row convinces no one and just has players tune out.

Bold for emphasis:
Seriously, how is this acceptable, but when I said pretty much the same thing, I'm scum and also bussing Boon?

[Hikari Link]

p, someone help

Help you sleep?

[Hikari Link]

And to me FIRE IS OBVIOUSLY SCUM SO INSTEAD OF SAYING THE OPPOSITE, EXPLAIN!!!!!!! It's that simple.

You've had this explained. I am not arrogant enough to think my explanations are enough to persuade you.

We're probably looking at Hiraki Ari and Alisae though.

Bold for emphasis (I'm going to stop saying that, because you really should get it by now):
How and when did this become your leading theory?

[Hikari Link]

Hikari is giving me the wiggins and my implosion read is now mud.

Do you recall why I was giving you the wig? Or was it just a general lack of being around?

[Hikari Link]

Spoiler: Requiem for an Alisae

As for Firebringer, his relative uselessness for the whole time and his willingness to permavote Boon, even when he admitted Boon was probably town, is super suspect.

Okay, yeah sure, but is this really something you would see scum doing?

I know Ali is gone (*cry*), but I still feel like this should be responded to. At this point, I don't think Fire is scum; the exchange just seemed too genuine. But I could totally conceive of such a world. "Too scummy to be scum" is a strategy that so rarely sees play and almost always gets dismissed. Somehow, being ridiculously anti-town (not scummy, there's a difference) is considered some manner of towntell (admittedly, even I typically go for it), but that's part of what I think would make it a viable strategy for ballsy scum. Again, I fully believe that is not what's happening here, I just think it's something to think about in the future. I'd honestly be a little impressed if somebody pulled it off.