Mini Normal 1917: :X Mafia (Game over!)

[Accountant]

Considering it's the start of the game, anything anyone does now can be interpreted in any way and is just WIFOM.

W R O N G

One of the best ways to catch scum is through a shitty entrance.

[Accountant]

There are a lot of VIs in this game.

[Accountant]

Here random questions is uncommon to the point that I have a decent chance of tripping inexperienced scum, and identifying some town.

Can you outline a situation in which an inexperienced scum slips up due to RQS and gets caught?

[Accountant]

Considering it's the start of the game, anything anyone does now can be interpreted in any way and is just WIFOM.

W R O N G

One of the best ways to catch scum is through a shitty entrance.

Agreed, but you're talking what I said out of context. How people start off is WIFOM, but how they proceed can being telling on how they started. blah blah, you know what I mean damit.

Please read my post carefully. How people start off is AI. Something_Smart got caught in his very first post in DEFCON Mafia.

[Accountant]

I think NotTheRealPaul is probably scum. The selfvote + questionnaire answering felt like a really bad attempt to fit in/insert self into game and their post was more or less an isolated island that didn't touch on what was being discussed around them. This is scummy because mafia find it way easier to put themselves into a game through easy to fake stuff like selfvote jokes or answering NAI questions rather than put themselves in the midst of real discussion.

VOTE: NotTheRealPaul

[Accountant]

Accountant what is your actual position on doing the RQS?

Its only purpose should be to jumpstart a game if it's dead and literally nobody is posting.

[Accountant]

What do you think of Mutten's OP. It read as super detached from the games state. More like checking a box for required partipation then genuine content imo

I disagree. Mutton's OP was perfectly fine. You probably mixed it up with Paul's OP.

[Accountant]

Grendel, do you think personality is important in obtaining reads?

What are you trying to gain by posting this?

[Accountant]

Weird summary post with weird snipes at weird people.

Yeah but I don't think it's scummy weird.

[Accountant]

I'll think about this over lunch. Do me a favor and tell me what you think about Paul?

[Accountant]

VOTE: grendel

Hi you just made my thinking about 10x easier

[Accountant]

A re-read of MCM's first post confuses me slightly actually.

They characterize Cheetory as "just another egoistical player" and then talk about how DRK is pretending to scumhunt but not doing anything... but end up voting Cheet? MCM can you please clarify this? Preferably in a non rhyming manner?

[Accountant]

Mutton why have you been trying to peddle to me the idea that DRK is scum so hard when your vote has not been on them?

[Accountant]

I'll think about this over lunch. Do me a favor and tell me what you think about Paul?

I think his choice to answer the questions and his choice to self-vote were both sub-optimal there, but I think both are well within the range of things a lot of newer players would do as either alignment and I don't find the combination of the two to be any greater than the sum of its parts. Null to me

Paul has clearly read the thread if he's seen the RQS and self vote joke but he chose not to comment on the discussion. Your thoughts on this?

[Accountant]

>paul's entrance is bad because no effort made to engage with discussion
>response is to make a joke then complain I am looking too much into his opening without addressing topics of discussion that don't involve people voting him

My vote stays

[Accountant]

Well I guess he talked about notsure and drk

[Accountant]

My mind is telling me no but my bodys telling me yes

[Accountant]

TripleC is probably my strongest townread atm ftr.

Why? He's said nothing AI

[Accountant]

I actually think notsure's actions aren't objectively that bad and a lot of the reads wrt him are clouded by dislike

[Accountant]

I'm actually the opposite and have him as a scum lean
his attitude isn't very clean

hIs aTtItUdE iSn'T vErY cLeAn

[Accountant]

Just explain why you scumread CCC

[Accountant]

UNVOTE:

[Accountant]

I wish we lived in a world where that kind of behavior is in fact a scum tell but we do not

[Accountant]

Name names?

No

[Accountant]

Did not like Accountant's calling out of VIs--those first few pages weren't that bad, and it seems like a way to set up discrediting people's opinions later.

If that was what I wanted to do it sure seems dumb that I'd also engage with them and try to understand their reads and thought process

And those few pages were bad, don't lie to yourself

PEdit: idk what to make of it

[Accountant]

The point about me calling VIs VIs is grasping at straws.

Backhand: Didn't most of the people voting Cheet give reasons, thus making it not random? They might not have been good reasons, but certainly they had non-random scumreads on him

[Accountant]

Why are you so insistent on inserting maybes in your entire exchange with Cheet gamma

"May" not be a thing he would do

[Accountant]

I dont like this answer

[Accountant]

The point about me calling VIs VIs is grasping at straws.

Backhand: Didn't most of the people voting Cheet give reasons, thus making it not random? They might not have been good reasons, but certainly they had non-random scumreads on him

Query: is the grasping at straws scummy?

No

[Accountant]

I really don't have the patience to engage with notsure's ignorance right now. Cheet, you have been drafted for mafia-explaining duty as the experienced player. Plz do your job.

[Accountant]

Then why point it out?

To discredit the case against me

[Accountant]

MCM is starting to grow on me

[Accountant]

I think notsure is town because he has this air of "I'm right fools and if you disagree you're just bad at mafia" that is both unnatural to a scum (who knows for sure that they are wrong and fake) and also very hard to fake.

[Accountant]

Uhhhh TL;DR since your case is completely incomprehensible to me

DRK

what is your thought on this response

[Accountant]

My thoughts on gamma's response is that he probably legitimately doesn't know what I meant.

I had the thought of "scum Gamma would care more about making themselves look good and would therefore read it until they understood it so they can form a better response" but im very unsure of how legitimate this is as a tell which is why I didn't bring it up

[Accountant]

Eh, I tend to just completely write off "I don't think scum would do this" towntells when the person in question is angry.

IMO they've had this air the entire game

[Accountant]

It's become a pattern for Gamma in this game to lob out softball and just kinda go "Mmkay, they caught it, everything seems fine." It almost kinda sorta seems productive at first glance, but it's really just white noise. I guess I'm just describing active lurking, aren't I?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[Accountant]

it does seem consistent with what I know of their town game however

[Accountant]

grendel quick qn why didn't you RQS during making friends & enemies? because you were scum there?

[Accountant]

More importantly, I was scared of using RQS around players like RC, Frogger, and JayReed.

???

[Accountant]

Oh so a VI is pretty much me got it

also after looking back at it, my little scum read on accountant was just me being stupid. Agree with cheetory that he was being pretty tryhard so id say he is prob town rn.

This seems a bit sudden. Could be Town rethinking a read, could be Mafia realising a fake read isn't going to fly and backing off...

Why did you make this post?

[Accountant]

MCM is like Kain or RC or kuribo or anyone else with a weird shtick

Put the effort into understanding them and focus on the actual content

[Accountant]

Grendel, let's talk about your strong tr of Gamma.

[Accountant]

Grendel, let's talk about your strong tr of Gamma.

Whats on your mind?

Why the tr?

[Accountant]

Who is masian

Masian is a legendary poster on this site. It was once said that she once caught the entire scum team on page 1. She has never not been protected at night and when she replaces into games, it's standard operating procedure for the scum to just claim and let themselves get lynched to save everyone time. She quit mafia after the FBI offered her a lucrative contract to put her skills to work sniffing out Russian spies.

[Accountant]

K, I can get onboard with the Backhand wagon.

[Accountant]

What are your thoughts on Gamma currently Accountant?

town

[Accountant]

@all: plz post your opinions on this post and this phrase in general within the next 24 hours before i use my ability 'nothin personnel' to kill you, ty

It's heavily AI for anyone but notsure

[Accountant]

VOTE: Backhand

[Accountant]

NotTheRealPaul (1): NotTheRealPaul

Why does this still exist?

[Accountant]

yup obviously I voted myself because I know Im scum and I want towncred since I led the wagon on myself.

So when I flip scum, then obviously im like conftown because I led the wagon so then I dont need to worry about being mislynched

This sarcastic response feels forced.

[Accountant]

A majorty of the scum reads around him seem to do with his posting gimmick and him being scummy for that vs reasons I think are creditable?

This is one of the things I find particularly worrying about the calls against MuttonChopMagic. Calls to lynch someone for a posting gimmick just feel a lot like Mafia trying to push through a lynch on a Townie - and then get away with minimal suspicion when he does, in fact, flip Town.

Practically speaking policy lynches never go through

[Accountant]

I won't hold my breath, but... do you think you could at least let us know your current reads?

You shouldn't have such lofty expectations of N_M.

[Accountant]

I keep wanting to post but not posting.

[Accountant]

Spoiler: drk posts

Hi Raya do you think I'm scum?

No... it's only page two of D1. Why are you asking me that?

(If you mean because you're against RQS than still no. I see where both sides are coming from around that.)

How about the way I'm going about it? Does the fact that I'm being all abrupt to Gamma Emerald about it give you bad feelings about me? Does the fact that I have a tiny townread on Gamma Emerald weird you out?

Considering it's the start of the game, anything anyone does now can be interpreted in any way and is just WIFOM.

BUT if people start talking now, it gives a lot of interaction and behaviors that can be compared to later in the game. This is good for town. So DeathRowKitty, I don't see the value in not answering some simple RQS questions. Just as mafia could use your answers against you, so can town use it as a basis to judge you as Town and have a higher chance of finding mafia as the game progresses.

so whatever I guess.

Everything you just said is incredibly silly. Do you have any reads?

You talk a lot about finding mafia and yet you seem to find find more value in answering non-game-specific questions than you do in discussing reads. Is interesting. Would you say that this utterly bizarre valuation is relevant to your alignment or is it a part of your views on mafia theory?

What about me seems scummy to you?

You talk a lot about finding mafia and yet you seem to find find more value in answering non-game-specific questions than you do in discussing reads. Is interesting. Would you say that this utterly bizarre valuation is relevant to your alignment or is it a part of your views on mafia theory?

What about me seems scummy to you?

The more people talk, the more content TOwn has to work with in identifying potential mafia. What about that don't you understand?

Mmkay, you don't seem to have understood what I was saying, so let me try again.

Not all posting is created equal. e.g. we could talk about ice cream and unicorns all day and it would be fun but we would get nowhere. I doubt you disagree with this concept.

Your posting seems to indicate that you found the random questions and the answering thereof to be a positive thing. Presumably, this means that you consider them to in some way advance the game, which you seem to understand is something that happens through reading people. Would you therefore say that it is your belief that these questions in some way help to read anyone? If so, what reads have you gained from it and what about it gave you those reads?

When I asked you about your reads, you seemed to believe that this made me likely scum. Now, scummy and anti-town aren't the same thing, but it seems likely in this case that you found it scummy at least partly because you did think it was anti-town. Is this correct?

Now, if the contentions in the previous two paragraph thingies are correct (i.e. that you found answering the questions to be a positive and that you found asking for reads to be anti-town), it would seem reasonable to conclude that you find more value in non-game-specific questions than you do in discussing reads. If so... .... ... why???



p-edit wow a lot of posts happened while i was typing this i am long-winded sry

What do you think of Mutten's OP. It read as super detached from the games state. More like checking a box for required partipation then genuine content imo

Was a truly terrible post. Weird summary post with weird snipes at weird people. I considered following your vote onto him, but I don't expect him to be particularly active in the near future (he made that post and then didn't respond to anything said after it + i've had a rhyming alt and it's a tiny bit frustrating to ever post content while posting in rhyme tbh) and that would make a wagon on him a bit meh unless we plan on quicklynching

Not liking Gamma so much anymore. Doing the opposite of liking him. Where "liking" is a synonym for "townreading" and not a personal opinion of the person because otherwise I would be very much not liking Cheetory, as always. Gamma's posts haven't been reading to me as someone looking critically at anyone and I'm pretty sure (i didn't read the things since my last post very thoroughly sry) there were multiple instances of him defending people in ways that I would expect to induce far more paranoia in town than seems to be the case for him. At the very least, his defense of CCC against Cheetory seemed that way to me and I think there was another thing too.

Unvote: Cheetory

Vote: Gamma Emerald

I feel like I should be saying something about notsure and my opinion is that he's just a distraction here. I made one particularly leading post at notsure to see what he would do with it and somehow it seems to have sent him off the deep end, so I suppose it's my fault or something. Being logic-averse and having a victim complex are both not alignment-indicative, unfortunately.

Will consider the possibility that notsure's play is likely town a bit later



Hopefully slightly clearer explanation of what I find scummy about Gamma:

There's two parts to what I don't like about Gamma's play here. The first is that I see no indication that he's expended any mental effort on trying to figure out anyone's alignment. He's poked at people a few times, but not in ways that seem to probe at alignment at all.

If you're going to read these quotes as examples, please also look at his follow-ups to them (not quoted here) - even the things that might seem like they're plausibly trying to probe for alignment no longer seem that way when you read how he follows up on them.

Wut
Is it DRK

it is

Vote: Cheetory

I'm not going to answer Grendel's questions and it would be best if no one else did either

Why are the questions bad? The one time I scumread an RQS the player was Town.

Accountant what is your actual position on doing the RQS?

I did some homework!

One of TripleC's recent games was an 11 player game in which there was 3 scum.

Newbie games have nine players, two of whom are Mafia. Here we have eleven players.

Three mafia sounds about right to me.

Given that this is something they've been interested in trying to figure out as town before, the # of games they've played in general and the different numbering in said game, I'm leaning towards believing that the # of players line of questioning is genuine.
His tone as scum is a little more forced from what I saw in the one game I skimmed and I feel like he genuinely believes his reading for his scumread on Klick.
So, town for now.

Eh it could be fake though
What other things do you find Town about CCC?

The point about me calling VIs VIs is grasping at straws.

Backhand: Didn't most of the people voting Cheet give reasons, thus making it not random? They might not have been good reasons, but certainly they had non-random scumreads on him

Query: is the grasping at straws scummy?

Then why point it out?

It's become a pattern for Gamma in this game to lob out softball and just kinda go "Mmkay, they caught it, everything seems fine." It almost kinda sorta seems productive at first glance, but it's really just white noise. I guess I'm just describing active lurking, aren't I?


The other thing that was making me uncomfortable with Gamma's play is something that I partly misremembered from my initial read, I think and I'm not sure how much I agree with it now. Will ponder it more eventually.

I checked Gamma's iso to make this post and he looks even worse that way. Which I usually try not to give weight to, but I think in this case it's the lack of other posts rather than the lack of context that makes me like it less, which I do think makes it a useful observation.

I really like the way drk engaged with raya and gamma in these posts, mcm. So I'd take him out of your pool, if I were you.

If we all think and/or know not_mafia plans on being unreadable and useless through the whole game, I'd as soon be rid of him now.

I'm uncomfortable with how you've moved from MCM policy lynch to N_M policy lynch rather than ~ actual scum lynches ~

[Accountant]

Once I feel I have a solid preliminary readslist Ill put it here
I have a solid chunk of townreads rn and one scumread

I'd certainly like to see your list, once it's ready.

Might be soon
Once I have reads on 75% of the playerlist and am caught up I'll post it

Post it now.

[Accountant]

You've been delaying this promised list for quite a while.

[Accountant]

This indicates you aren't paying attention to things. It's a proven fact that scum don't have to read the Game as closely as they know everyone's alignment.

whoever told you this was wrong and bad at the game

[Accountant]

scum needs to read the game closely because they're trying to trick down and need to know what town is saying so they can manipulate the course of events or just stay informed in general

they also need to keep a watchout for pr tells and see who is a threat so they can NK them

it's a total and gross lie to say mafia doesn't pay attention to the game

on the human side of things people usually play mafia because they enjoy the game and humans pay attention to things they enjoy

[Accountant]

I remember who taught me that one.

It was Human Sequencer in Autumn Masquerade.
I'll go back and see where I applied it and whether it worked that time.

I've never lurked as scum, I've lurked plenty of times as town.

[Accountant]

lurk/apathy, whatever

my point is that HS lied to you

[Accountant]

I think the scumtell on Paul for not paying attention is really, really bad and I refuse to enable a wagon based on it. Feel free to talk to me if it's any other reason why Paul is scum.

[Accountant]

DRK and Cheet are both more experienced than me.

More votes on Backhand for his latest active lurk post would be nice.

[Accountant]

I mean notsure actually said what I was trying to say there Accountant

And both of you are wrong.

[Accountant]

His characterization of town is sketchy. You are an experienced player and I'm sure you know enough to know that town is not in fact hyperattentive machines at all times. Furthermore, mafia can skim and wagon who they like but whether they do so is dependent on their personality and not their alignment. They have to read up anyway to justify their wagons.

[Accountant]

What NTRP is doing is characteristic of newbs in general who are overwhelmed by the text walls

[Accountant]

K I was wrong that wasn't backhands post, he still needs votes though.

Cheetory what are your thoughts on backhand

[Accountant]

Between paul and notsure I think paul is more likely to be scum but I also dont think it cant be tvt and I'd like to hear why cheet thinks its not

[Accountant]

@Accountant - can you tell how Post 318 pinged you?

It didn't. My Backhand vote was long overdue.

[Accountant]

Well, I was going to do a PBPA on NTRP, but I only got two posts in and I realized he's either town or is playing a deeper game that his other posts don't really back up (no offense, I hope)

I think NotTheRealPaul is probably scum. The selfvote + questionnaire answering felt like a really bad attempt to fit in/insert self into game and their post was more or less an isolated island that didn't touch on what was being discussed around them. This is scummy because mafia find it way easier to put themselves into a game through easy to fake stuff like selfvote jokes or answering NAI questions rather than put themselves in the midst of real discussion.

VOTE: NotTheRealPaul

oh crap you caught me

Let me just hop onto the maf thread and ask cheetory what to do.

This is a townslip. Could be fake, but like CCC, I doubt it.

How is it a townslip?

[Accountant]

Backhand I think if you really townread me and saw I was scumreading you, you'd make more of an effort to engage with me

[Accountant]

Hiraki, notsure called you a detached observer.

[Accountant]

notsure can we make a pact to have you not discuss mafia theory any more because you give me headaches and tiredness every time you do so

[Accountant]

Don't be a dick.

[Accountant]

Where have I been a dick?

[Accountant]

I really don't have the patience to engage with notsure's ignorance right now. Cheet, you have been drafted for mafia-explaining duty as the experienced player. Plz do your job.

Where have I been a dick?

suck my left nut. Why participate, if you're just going to be condescending? Dealing with me is part of the game snowflake. You know, you could actually address my post without being a douche. Your characterization of town skimming and not engaging is pretty dumb too. But feel free to gloss over it like you're special.

I straight up told you the unembellished utter absolute truth and you rationalized it away because you suck at mafia

[Accountant]

If I wanted to teach you mafia I'd have stuck to the newbie queue, if you're going to say wrong shit like town always pays attention I'm going to correct you and if you're going to vote people based on wrong shit I'm going to not support your wagon and neither wil anyone else

[Accountant]

Thanks for giving me ammo next time I make a post in GD explaining why democracy sucks though!