Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

[massive]

VOTE: nancy

Ego.

[massive]

Welp I'm all for an early wagon.

VOTE: PersephoneSidekick

I'll save my "Vorts: Korts" joke for later.

[massive]

VOTE: Robbnva

Well there's no need to be condescending.

[massive]

So monkey says Percy has been "faking" it then throws shade at korts for believing he's game solving then monkey votes me... And he does this all in the same post?

I also don't like the sheep and Tchill's shade-throwing game needs as much work as his choice in basketball teams.

Am presuming you don't actually think that condescension is a scumtell; why do you scumread Robbnva?

I was reminded that Robb's original reason for voting Persephone was pretty bad, and the need for a wagon to put pressure on Persephone had passed.

Also going to vote Tchill so let's have one of them vote counts.

[massive]

I was ok with 42-44.

[massive]

VOTE: Robbnva

Well there's no need to be condescending.

Why do you think being condescending is alignment indicative? How is this a valid case to make? This was your third post in the game and third different vote. Did you have a reason to quit liking the Perse wagon for this?

I've already said I was content with 42-44, AND I've already said why I voted Robb, so I assume you'll get to it since you appear to be catching up on oh 4 pages one post at a time. And who said I needed to make a valid case? And who said being condescending is alignment-indicative?

Huh, nope, you didn't follow up your own questions with the answers, just left it to look like I didn't answer them already, and then made a scumread based off of it.

VOTE: Kaboose

Ginngie come actually play this game.

[massive]

If you feel like I'm scum then vote me. It's gonna take some bad scum exposure to get me lynched and that's worthwhile for the town.

[massive]

well I have only 1 vote and it is in use atm. don't worry you will get lynched eventually. Now if I am wrong about you and you are town, do better please cause I hate mislynching bad players who look like scum

And I hate when players feel like they can call other players "bad." Don't make excuses, put your money where your mouth is.

What about 42 to 44 are you okay with? What do you think about my arguments about how Persephone is making shit up just to appease town and now sounding like she's pandering?

My vote was just a bandwagon vote and I didn't need much to move. If she's making stuff up to pander to town, then I fell for it, but I think it's more likely you're just a wee bit cynical. I've never played with either of you so I have no idea what part of that is right.

Did you think Robb was scum? If not, why did you vote him? Do you think Kaboose is scum? If not, why did you vote him?

Voting for someone doesn't have to be because you think they're scum. I was happy to run up the other side of Robb v Persephone and see what fell out, and Robb's reason for voting Persephone to start with was pretty bad, I think even you would have to admit that. My company on that wagon got really sketchy though. i do think Kaboose is scum, his light attack on me was all show and no follow-through. If you want to lynch me I'd even be ok with you saying "It's the type of top-level scum-scum interaction that makes it look like they're doing work." But let's lynch Kaboose first.

Am I the only one who thinks this is LAMIST as fuck?

Any thoughts on Robbnva's response?

[massive]

Umm... Who pointed out my scummy habits?

Here, I can do this. It's all of them. You easily have all the scummy habits. Amazingly, this is not exaggeration.

[massive]

I don't think it's that you're concerned or not about how you're perceived. I think it's that you can't figure out HOW to change how you're perceived from your gameplay, so you've just decided that your natural gameplay is fine, maybe you're going to get mislynched as town a bit, but it'll make your scum game a bit easier. This is ultimately what got you lynched in Mini 1920 D1. Every attempt you make to get our of your own way is just another scummy action, so just embrace it, right?

The problem is, it works to some extent. I'm already like "yeah but that's just Tchill, honestly these 'textbook scummy actions' are just him getting in his own way, it's NAI at best."

[massive]

It feels like Tchill is going after every single low hanging fruit and is seeing what works

Right but that's totally Mini 1920 Tchill! I don't know, now I'm sticking up for him even. I must be the easiest pocket ever. I bet there's a thread about how to pocket massive in the General Discussion forum. But like it feels like he just can't help but target the easy targets because he just doesn't get the layered play yet.

[massive]

Dark Horse can be town for now.

Nancy, don't you think Aristo is someone that will eventually sort himself? You seem to have a good amount of experience with him.

[massive]

See when you do that Tchill it just reminds me that sometimes scummy is just scummy.

[massive]

So why not take that look yourself? Why just suggest it to the rest of us?

[massive]

Why would it be wasted time? That's not saying his results would be bad, but that he shouldn't even bother doing it. You don't even know what his output would be, so why attack his effort instead of his results?

[massive]

I feel like scum!DarkHorse would have followed you onto Aristo.

And I just played a game with town!Aristo where he threw shade and faffed about like this, so I'm trying to understand why your meta read on him is strong enough to vote but doesn't line up with (a) what I just experienced and (b) what I understand the "accepted meta read" of Aristo to encompass.

Do you have thoughts on anyone else?

[massive]

@massive could you articulate your Tchill townread a little more clearly?

No, and that's the problem with it. His gameplay is like a sine wave -- the further you go, the more often you fluctuate between "oh come on I can't just give him a pass on that scummy play" and "yeah but that's just Tchill, he can't help himself." I truly believe that he has no idea what townies SHOULD look like. Like, he hasn't seen an example of pure town gameplay, and on this site in its current meta, that shouldn't be hard to believe. But that just ends up playing into the sine wave, and I've never seen his scum game to compare.

Robbnva: Some day you're going to have to vote me for more than a weekend or this shade you throw at me just isn't gonna stick.

[massive]

I was reminded that Robb's original reason for voting Persephone was pretty bad

That wasn't why you voted me.... Why did you change now? btw, my reason for my vote wasn't bad at all actually.

I do find it highly suspicious that you are criticizing my reasons, when all of your votes this game have actually been for terrible reasons. I do not see this kind of play coming from town. I hate pre-flip associations, but i am feeling confident that you and PS are probably scum together.

It was absolute rubbish and more than one person has told you it was. But you have a consistency problem here; either both of us are scummy for voting for rubbish reasons, or neither of us are. You can't have your "this is AI for only one of us" and eat it too.

your "I am all for an early wagon" was clearly garbage since you removed your vote 6 posts later and your follow up vote was a chainsaw vote. Now you vote somebody else because they are questioning you.

Of course it was garbage. You do garbage things in RVS to get the game moving. Calling the vote on you "chainsaw" is a poor attempt to downplay any validity (since chainsaw is based on intent to defend Persephone and I don't think you could really paint that picture in detail) and you misrepresent the third, which wasn't because Kaboose was asking me questions but because he wasn't following up on them or being influenced by answers to those questions that were already in the thread when he asked them. He was asking questions just to appear to be asking questions and trying to legitimize his vote. You'll maybe notice he never came back to them, even after this was pointed out to him.

Also to answer your question about condescending being alignment indicative, YOU were the one who implied it was AI when you gave that for your reason for voting me, you know, before you backpedaled and changed your reasons later.

I will always happily vote for someone being a jackass or just plain unnecessarily mean. I don't want to play with those people. There needs to be consequences for them treating people like shit. I may be the only person on site who feels that way. And you know perfectly well that there are reasons to vote for people other than them being scum, but you continue to play this like "massive blatantly said being condescending was scummy." AND your initial case for Persephone was trash. So stop acting like you had some pristine gameplay that didn't precipitate that vote.

[massive]

I don't use meta so take your meta defense. Shine it up real nice. Turn that somebitch sideways and stick it straight up
Your roody poo candy ass

Well I wasn't expecting a The Rock Defense in 2017 of all places.

What game with Ari did you play where he looked like he does here?

I was in 1920 as well but, well, let's see.

1890 he replaced in midgame and was a mason, both things I think could alter his play. But 1137 in that game is a good example.

1818 he's the SK so that SHOULD look something like his town game one would think; 607. Shit is definitely his favorite swearword.

I got one more that's him in a hydra. That's what I got. But by all means, chase him down.

---

So far I townlean on Korts and Sunset Diamond, I like their effort and even when I don't agree necessarily I can at least see where they're coming from. Dark Horse I mentioned earlier, I think is OK for now. Maaaaaaaybe Ginngie but that's pure gut and nothin' but. Looking forward to more monkeyketchuping.

Vecna have you ever played with Tchill before?

[massive]

We're getting derailed trying to give Robb advice and we aren't actually hunting scum.

After reading Vecna's posts this page, maybe nancy was right about Aristo after all.

[massive]

Yeah, see in the original Civilization game a guy used that exact same line....and he was scum. It does happen, and if you bring it up in the game, it affects the game and is going to be discussed.

Not saying that you are scum, or making it up, or anything - but that is just the way it is. AtE is a used strategy in this game

Mostly it was the "not saying you are scum" right here. Gave me the heebies.

[massive]

I'll be curious what Eddie thinks of Grendel backing him up on voting Sunlit Diamond.

[massive]

Vecna do you have anything about me specifically that you find scummy, or is it all associative?

[massive]

I need to go back and re-read that last weekend.

[massive]

I got one note before being torn away by work -- Nancy is probably town for 583; I can't see picking "Vecna is a flat-out liar" as a hill you want to die on if you're scum and he's just claimed jailkeeper.

[massive]

Grendel, Vecna and massive's votes confuse me looking at the vote count. At least with Vecna his revote on me after I claimed was good enough reason to vote him. Those other votes just seem like a place to put it without bringing up any concern.

What about my vote is confusing?

Also, what's up with your hard-on about the no-lynch? Why didn't you make up for it by shooting Assembler yourself?

[massive]

VOTE: Tchill

[massive]

Enough fooling around with other wagons, guys. For anyone who needs a reminder, go reread Vecna from Tchill's claim onward. How is the PR claim believable after all that implosion?

Scum could easily claim jailkeeper to try and accuse me of a false claim after a night phase. I'm not buying the vecna claim. Mainly because of his reaction to my claim.

If you had said "I also shot Vecna last night" based on this post, I might have bought it.

[massive]

"even if I'm town it's not sure I'd be killed at this point" lol. Yeah scums gonna leave the pr alive that can kill them. That's laughable. If you don't believe I'm a vig then you should believe I'm scum. It's as simple as that.

None of us believe you're a vig. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T VIG ANYONE. Jeezus.

[massive]

Like, honestly, why would Mafia kill you if you actually ARE town? You're too terrified to actually shoot. You're just a named townie.

[massive]

I don't understand how you can say I'm not a vig but I might be town.

This is nowhere near what I said. Your argument is that you should be ignored by the town because Mafia would obviously not want to leave you alive at night, since you're a role that can kill them. The counter argument is that you aren't killing anyone. You've made it clear that you're afraid to kill anyone. So why would you believe that Mafia would kill you overnight? It doesn't compute.

Like, honestly, why would Mafia kill you if you actually ARE town? You're too terrified to actually shoot. You're just a named townie.

This feels ridiuculously forced. Sounds a lot like trying to preemptiveley justify scum leaving tchill alive for reasons other than "mislynch bait"

Your argument appears to be "Tchill more likely bad town than scum." What have you seen from Tchill to make you think that my statement could be untrue?

Jeez I pasted these together and evidently I say "your argument" a lot.

[massive]

Well, let's start with : who would you NOT lynch?

[massive]

Man I wanna vote Robb but this

And like massive said at the time, this last sentence is incredibly condescending, as if your own play has been so impeccable.

is just like POCKET WARNING DANGER WILL ROBINSON POCKET WARNING POCKET WARNING

[massive]

My personality is condescending! I can't imagine why I can't convince anyone of my opinion! Huh.

[massive]

Robb. Why is the Eddie slot scum and Tchill just bad town?

[massive]

Grendel is Kaboose and I was happy voting Kaboose yesterday. Maybe a little dig into Grendel is in order.

[massive]

Massive?

How is condescending a grounds for voting?

I will always happily vote for someone being a jackass or just plain unnecessarily mean. I don't want to play with those people. There needs to be consequences for them treating people like shit. I may be the only person on site who feels that way. And you know perfectly well that there are reasons to vote for people other than them being scum, but you continue to play this like "massive blatantly said being condescending was scummy." AND your initial case for Persephone was trash. So stop acting like you had some pristine gameplay that didn't precipitate that vote.

I dunno, looks like you wanted me to answer and then found it so OK. Why do you think my reason for voting Kaboose was something that I should have considered NAI?

Gamma I will give you a temporary benefit of the doubt on Grendel.

[massive]

It's immaterial if he jailed him or not, since Tchill didn't shoot and it didn't factor into his decision.

[massive]

Still haven't answered why Eddie's slot is scum and Tchill is just bad town. Other than "I'm still stuck in my tunnel."

[massive]

Still haven't answered why Eddie's slot is scum and Tchill is just bad town. Other than "I'm still stuck in my tunnel."

Uh yes I did.

No, you did not. You said

I was already scum the slot. Eddie replaced in and proceeded to do nothing but troll.

That's not a town mindset and anyone who says or thinks otherwise is wrong imo.

which is (a) I'm just tunnelling Eddie and (b) says nothing about Tchill or how you can tell a difference between the two.

[massive]

So flip it. What has Eddie done that's town and tchill that's scum

This isn't about me. I don't think you could have been following this game and NOT thought Tchill was scummy. This is about you saying (paraphrasing) "I don't care if Eddie is scum or bad town, I want them gone" and trying to determine what your criteria is for bad town to want them gone. You clearly don't have any problem with Tchill who (if town) has not exactly played a scintillating game. And your argument against Persephone originally wasn't "he's trolled all game." There's a disconnect and you are not doing a good job of providing a realistic answer. Calling it me "discrediting you and your argument" is horseshit when all I'm trying to get is a straight answer and you can't or aren't giving one.

You claim that you voted for him because he asked these questions just to ask questions. How is that a valid scumread? And you can't say that "it's because he was just asking questions that doesn't influence his reads" because your vote post was your first reply to him. He couldn't have made any progress with that before you made your conclusion about it.

I don't see why that wouldn't be a valid scumread, that's absolutely something scum do -- ask questions without caring what the answers are, or making it obvious that the answers don't matter to them. But you know what's weird, is that I was 200% confident when you took up this line that he had voted for me without letting me answer this, and so I went back to quote it and ... it's not as offensive as I thought at first read-through. Yes, he's building off of (at best) "assumed answers" to the questions he asked without actually waiting for the answer, and making an argument based on associatives to justify his scumread equally based on whether the associative is town or scum, and ... well no now that I look at it again it was pretty bad all around. You skim past it in your catchup, can you review this and give me your opinion?

[massive]

Are you town reading Gamma/Sunlit?

Yeah, I was leaning town on Sunlit in 423 and I think Gamma has followed that line, so at this point, I feel like this is town-Gamma.

[massive]

Would like Titus opinions on Tchill, Dark Horse, myself.

[massive]

I don't see why that wouldn't be a valid scumread, that's absolutely something scum do -- ask questions without caring what the answers are, or making it obvious that the answers don't matter to them.

But here, you misrepresented But you know what's weird, is that I was 200% confident when you took up this line that he had voted for me without letting me answer this, and so I went back to quote it and ... it's not as offensive as I thought at first read-through. Yes, he's building off of (at best) "assumed answers" to the questions he asked without actually waiting for the answer, and making an argument based on associatives to justify his scumread equally based on whether the associative is town or scum, and ... well no now that I look at it again it was pretty bad all around. You skim past it in your catchup, can you review this and give me your opinion?

How am I misrepresenting anything? My callout for your actions had cause—as you admit. And also, that's not how I read it. They were reasonable questions. Your reaction to it was overly aggressive and OMGUS-y. Just like now, you were assuming malicious intent where there was no reason to infer that at all. If you're scumreading what he did, you should scumread yourself for building off assumed intention for reasonable questions just to justify your OMGUS scumread to him.

As I noted, I had misremembered the event, and when I went back to correct my thought process, I didn't remove all of my previous thought. The first four words of my response should have been removed to better coincide with the rest of the paragraph. Did you answer my question there at the end?

And Gamma has been playing a transparent and one might even say "town-leading" game to this point. I like his reach-out over Grendel as well. I had positive feelings about Sunlit prior to replacement and so it follows.

[massive]

Working with my town reads is one of my strongest weapons, so I'm curious why that would be especially scummy. How much resistance should I have shown?

[massive]

I didn't target Tchill.

[massive]

It's not that dire but it's close to "cards on the table" time. There's 6 of us presumably and 3 of them.

[massive]

I have no idea how MathBlade goes "one of Gamma/Ginngie is scum" and "one of Ginngie/nancy is scum" and doesn't extrapolate that to "Ginngie is scum" or even mentions waiting to hear what Ginngie wants to say about the overnight stuff. Like -- if you believe Ginngie is scum, vote him, if you believe he's town, wait to hear his night results, what's the point of posting some useless equivocating "it could be ALL THESE OPTIONS" post?

[massive]

Neither Game Replacement nor Vedith have posted on-site since August 31.

My ISO has my general read progression on Gamma. Some of it is gut but I was ok with Sunlit Diamond D1.

[massive]

The burden of role madness games -- everyone starts depending on the roles.

[massive]

I'm not really interested in talking more about my read there when I haven't engaged with him in the ways that I want to yet.

Then why are you interested in my read on him?

[massive]

I will work to coalesce my thoughts on Gamma specifically and the rest of the crowd over the weekend.

[massive]

I had this in a window so I'll just post it.

It's a normal, and we've had a VT flip? Wait. Is this a PR slip, a scumslip, or a display of a different perspective on role madness?

I expect one VT in a role madness game, but probably only exactly one.

[massive]

And I think it is scum have a lot of power and massive slipped.

So let's see, so far we have a flipped jailkeeper, a flipped vigilante, a flipped cop. When I said "role madness" was when Ginngie was also claiming a PR. At what point do you NOT go "this is role madness"? Lucky for you we're lynching nancy today.

VOTE: Nancy

[massive]

I'm not. You are the lynch because you are the only one who claimed to have visited Tchill.

Why aren't you voting Game Replacement?

[massive]

Well I don't really scumread him for starters. You realize Ginngie retracted, right?

Of course. But the information gathered from it is still there, and why would I dispute it? Are you disputing it?

[massive]

Gamma dies today, I sort nancy tomorrow

This makes zero sense. Why gambit, get EXCITED about the outcome, and then refuse to follow the results?

[massive]

Gamma dies today, I sort nancy tomorrow

This makes zero sense. Why gambit, get EXCITED about the outcome, and then refuse to follow the results?

You haven't been reading closely have you?

Honestly. Is it not an accurate statement to say:

1. You gambited
2. You got a result (nancy is the only claimed visitor for Tchill who is dead)
3. You are ignoring it to chase something else

Do point out where I am misreading something.

[massive]

I disagree. And I don't understand why no effort was made to even follow up on that.

[massive]

The burden of role madness games -- everyone starts depending on the roles.

I'm guessing this is a joke?

Why do you think this is a joke?

[massive]

I have another question, do you believe that nancy isn't really a pr?

I believe that nancy isn't a TOWN PR.

[massive]

Well I was wondering when "start to fake-distance from massive" was gonna come up.

[massive]

Like, Gamma, why would it be bad that I'm looking at the Ginngie gambit the "wrong way" when if I look at it how Ginngie expects me to it means I should vote you?

[massive]

What does that mean, "up with the hype"

[massive]

I do agree with your belief. Which is why I don't believe nancy is town. And I'm going to end up effectively counterclaiming her anyways no matter what she says. So here's me: I'm a backup to one of the dead roles. I guess I'll expect your vote on nancy in your next post?

[massive]

I do too, now. Please remember when I mentioned it we had three flipped PRs, Ginngie on a gambit, and me knowing my own role. But you can go after nancy.

[massive]

Up in Aspen camping for the weekend but should check in before deadline. If there's anything you need from me ask now.

[massive]

There's no reason for me to claim my backup. If you don't lynch me today scum can't let me live overnight and risk me being the cop. Just remember if you don't lynch Nancy she will fake her watcher result tomorrow for lylo.