Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Amrun]

Tbh I haven’t read the set up yet lelel will get to it later.

[Amrun]

I’m sorry I’ve been overtaken with family obligations this weekend. I apologize. Catch up within 24 hours.

[Amrun]

Ok so, I’m stupid. Can someone please confirm for me: we can fight OR spare, correct? Not both in one game day?

[Amrun]

HURT: Amrun

i remember you being more uncomfortable in your scum shoes than your town ones, and here you don't say hi and you don't engage with the game when it is the easiest to engage with - i get busy but i don't think that avoidance wasn't busy.

were you annoyed with the roleplay heavy and didn't want to play spoiler? what do you think of my thoughts so far? what can i do to make the game better for you so we can skip down this road together and crush all of those bad monsters that stand in our way?

My scum winrate since returning to site is actually perfect. I have not been lynched as scum. In fact, I don’t think I have been lynched at all. I was vengekilled once as scum but I engineered it to be that way. So that meta (while accurate) is old. Honestly i would say it’s still accurate, I’m just better at hiding it, and certainly wouldn’t just fuck off reading the game tbf.

I um, think I’ve played this game (flavor wise) pretty sure I have, in fact, but I have the memory of a goldfish and don’t remember anything except the fucking flower thing?! Anyway the flavor talk just lost me and was boring. I didn’t join for flavor. I joined explicitly to play with you.

I was simply busy IRL and my on site team was consumed by team mafia.

So far, I have you and chemist as town, as of this post. Nothing scummy has stuck out yet. I don’t particularly find Hectic anything but null so far, since you commented most on him.

[Amrun]

Oh, and, I absolute agree that sparing only is a stupid strat that I won’t be participating in.

[Amrun]

I am going to be away for tomorrow and half of Monday. I like the contribution that Nachomamma8 has made so far, especially given the style of posting from others that I have seen so far is difficult for me to parse. I also will say that I originally thought searching for townreads would be most beneficial until Nachomamma8 pointed out the flaw in that thought process (which is something I am disappointed in myself for not realizing).

Townread for me at the point.

JK this is my pick for scum

[Amrun]

Ok, I read again because my eyes glazed over too many times.

On second pass, I like Hectic for town more than I thought, but I’m not hanging my hat on it.

I still like sujimichi for scum with a secondary pick of Asriel. I didn’t like Asriel’s awkwardness, but I did like chemist’s defense of it, which is +town majorly IMO. Chemist clearly has more meta with Asriel than I do, so I thought I’d trust him on it for the time being, but thinking back to the only micro I have with Asriel, I don’t remember this nervous twitchiness there, so, keeping an eye out.

Sujimichi is trying to blend in.

HURT: Sujimichi

P-edit: yas queen yas

[Amrun]

And I’m going to be perfectly honest that I haven’t yet been able to force myself to read Sherlock’s posts to the point of comprehension. Not that I’m incapable just ... unmotivated. They need to use other people’s usernames, at least.

[Amrun]

@alimdia: What are you trying to even ask me?

[Amrun]

Sorry, how is Sujimichi trying to blend in? He's barely posted

A) I mean, that’s pretty much what a lot of scum do - post only as much as necessary.

B) the tonality of his post is very awkward and buddying of nacho who is obviously one of the stronger players in the game, especially at that juncture.

[Amrun]

Sorry, how is Sujimichi trying to blend in? He's barely posted

A) I mean, that’s pretty much what a lot of scum do - post only as much as necessary.

B) the tonality of his post is very awkward and buddying of nacho who is obviously one of the stronger players in the game, especially at that juncture.

I find it interesting that you attribute your behavior to you as null but to me as trying to blend in and being scummy. I think if you honestly review the game at the point I replaced in, it was mostly jokes which I do not do well with analyzing. Nachomamma8 was the first player to, in my opinion, do something game advancing. Thus my townread. Then, due to real life reason (of which you also claimed) I was gone for yesterday and I will be absent this afternoon.

I would posit that you view me as easy lynch material and so are fabricating a reason to push me.

HURT: Amrun

I don’t scumread you for A. I scumread you for B. A was a response to alimdia, whose response to me did not make sense. Also, making quiet but infrequent content posts is NOT the same thing as not reading the game and then catching up.

Sorry, how is Sujimichi trying to blend in? He's barely posted

A) I mean, that’s pretty much what a lot of scum do - post only as much as necessary.

B) the tonality of his post is very awkward and buddying of nacho who is obviously one of the stronger players in the game, especially at that juncture.

Tell me

, why do you see his townread of Nacho as buddying rather than genuine? Do you

disagree

with it?

I don’t disagree with it. The part where he said he was ashamed for not realizing it or whatever came off as awkward to me.

I don’t have any experience with this player to know if that tone is normal or not, but it’s the best thing worth pushing so far IMO.

[Amrun]

I don’t scumread you for A. I scumread you for B. A was a response to alimdia, whose response to me did not make sense. Also, making quiet but infrequent content posts is NOT the same thing as not reading the game and then catching up.

And yet, you did B as well.

No I didn’t. Nacho literally wrote me a poem to summon me, so, clearly we know each other. In sign up thread I joined to play with nacho, explicitly.

[Amrun]

To clarify, I don’t think japan-kun is buddying nacho because he TR him. It’s the content of the rest of the post. (Oh he’s so right on theory that I’m ashamed I didn’t think of it first!)

Being right in theory is also not why I TR nacho. I assumed this would be a completely obvious thing (flips are vital), and it’s a theory I expect nacho to espouse as either alignment because it’s accurate.

[Amrun]

And his focus on basically saying “no, but u!!!!” is just deflection.

Even if I conceded we did the same things (which I don’t), two players can do the same things and one be scummy and one is not. It’s all about the manner in which it is done.

[Amrun]

1. I don’t really remember Nacho’s scumtells but he’s a good player and seems to be actively sorting and moving gamestate forward. We will do better if form together like two sides of a hatchet so for now I will treat him as town and re-eval as gamestate dictates.

2. It’s a pretty good strategy but I think it leads to an information less day. I think it’s better to proceed with the day as normal for now, but closer to deadline, revisit this. Scum knowing who the IC is will inform their play so as to render the interactions unhelpful. But it’s a good point worthy of discussion.

[Amrun]

Ok, Hectic is town based off this page. Nice.


Oof this game is moving pretty slowly. Wish I had something more to add.

[Amrun]

I can dig it.

[Amrun]

HURT: Asriel


@Chara: why aren’t YOU pressuring Asriel as well if you agree?

But I do too, and I did say earlier I feel Asriel is off.

I simply didn’t want to let up on Sujimichi but his more recent contributions have definitely been better.

Let’s consolidate and choo choo.

[Amrun]

Ok, I read again because my eyes glazed over too many times.

On second pass, I like Hectic for town more than I thought, but I’m not hanging my hat on it.

I still like sujimichi for scum with a secondary pick of Asriel. I didn’t like Asriel’s awkwardness, but I did like chemist’s defense of it, which is +town majorly IMO. Chemist clearly has more meta with Asriel than I do, so I thought I’d trust him on it for the time being, but thinking back to the only micro I have with Asriel, I don’t remember this nervous twitchiness there, so, keeping an eye out.

Sujimichi is trying to blend in.

HURT: Sujimichi

P-edit: yas queen yas

[Amrun]

V/LA

I’ll be here in and out but my son’s daycare might get shut down for literally having a child eat actual Percocet on their watch so I want to make everyone aware I’m dealing with RL issues and may be distant for a bit

[Amrun]

It’s a painkiller

[Amrun]

You should know that, Chemist. It’s basic life knowledge.

[Amrun]

It’s not mechanically suboptimal. If no one ever flips, we have nothing.

[Amrun]

Do you think nacho and hectic are scum together, replica?

[Amrun]

Hoo boy.

Replica, are you an alt?

[Amrun]

I have more thoughts than those-I had townleans on Chemist, Sugimichi, and Hectic from what I remember on my skim-but I've written enough for the game at the moment and don't want to flood it at once. Digestibility is more important than what you say. I'll put a heal vote down pretty soon.

Do you think nacho and hectic are scum together, replica?

No, but I'm not anywhere close to speculating on teammates and a million other qualifications that this question begs for.

What, pray tell, is the scum motivation for nacho to manipulate meta to call Hectic town?

[Amrun]

I am still here enough - I just wanted to make everyone aware if I did suddenly stop responding, that’s probably why.

[Amrun]

Replica, how would you have expected Nacho to approach Hectic’s meta differently as town?

[Amrun]

@alimdia: Pine is well known to be NAI for lurking so that’s probably why his lurking is receiving less attention. From me, at least.

I mean, I’ve noticed. I’m just waiting to make an alignment based decision.

Replica’s more recently posting seems better to me but did you ever answer my question, replica?

[Amrun]

HEAL: Hectic

The only thing I’m happy healing atm.

[Amrun]

I think she feels pretty different than a recent game I had with her in which she was scum.

[Amrun]

#332 is referring to alimdia. Sorry.

[Amrun]

But fight who? And why?

[Amrun]

Do we get a deadline extension?

[Amrun]

Amrun is a difficult case in that i agree with what she's said, and can identify with that. such as 254 as i mentioned. (about not wanting to let up on Sujimichi) but i don't know if making sense is enough.

Amrun, what about Replica did you like more? besides the contextual mistakes, which were rectified when pointed out, i feel like their posting feel has been fairly consistent since they replaced in.

Idk, I still think his statements about Nacho’s town case on Hectic is busywork at best. It clearly never intended to go anywhere. I DON’T like that.

In general, I like that he’s being active and producing content.

I definitely do not want to spare him today.

[Amrun]

@Farkran:

Why am I sheeping anyone? You clearly read where I originated the Suji “wagon,” such that it is, so why ask me such a meaningless question?

[Amrun]

@Farkran:

A) I think it has been made pretty clear that Nacho and I intend to work together at least for now. Chara not so much but it doesn’t bother me. I’m the primary pusher of Sujimichi, and Nacho is the primary defender of Hectic, though I didn’t vote to spare until I decided I agreed based on something Hectic did that was towny. This is all in thread. Chara following us IS interesting, but I think we planned/hoped to be followed so it’s not really THAT interesting until there’s some flips to sort with.

B) you are the asriel slot, yes? If so, then being super awkward and nervous sounding and then when called on it, flaking out.

[Amrun]

No I agree! I want to hurt Sujimichi. But deadline was approaching (like fast) and I didn’t have anything new to present on Sujimichi to convince anyone. I didn’t want to cause us to no action. Sparing Hectic isn’t the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing that could happen would be nothing which we were headed to rapidly (and still kinda are).

[Amrun]

Again, I don’t think you are quite understanding how slow this game is and how dangerously close we are to effectively no lynching. I specifically changed to asriel to consolidate, not because it’s my top choice at all. Voting with a scumread to achieve a lynch > no lynch

[Amrun]

Also, my level of conviction is not high enough on Sujimichi that it really bothers me all that much tbh.

[Amrun]

We are ~4 days to deadline now. Game might have been slow, but right now, with replacement extensions, we have plenty of time to avoid unnecessary no-flip sparing. I mean, even a lynch on my slot is better than sparing, but first i'd like to understand why you have been compromising on my pred as a lurker rather than lurker-pine, or sujimichi. I don't like my pred ISO too, but it's like 10 posts, and after learning my role PM my POV requires me to be wary of people opportunistically joining my wagon. Sujimichi was the vote that struck me most, and i am wondering why it didn't strike you (@amrun) as well.

As I previously explained, it DID strike me, but wasn’t really relevant since I was using his hurt to get us closer to goal. Scum can bus, but more likely, one of my early scumreads is wrong so using one to get the other doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

No I agree! I want to hurt Sujimichi. But deadline was approaching (like fast) and I didn’t have anything new to present on Sujimichi to convince anyone. I didn’t want to cause us to no action. Sparing Hectic isn’t the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing that could happen would be nothing which we were headed to rapidly (and still kinda are).

I agree with you on this and I’ll work with you on suji despite my reservations if it lets us avoid sparing

HURT: suji

HEAL: unvote

Oooh it’s so nice to be able to read your posts without hurting my brain!!!

UNVOTE: heal[/heal]

HURT: Sujimichi

In case I was still on Asriel, can’t remember. As Farkran has correctly pointed out, we now have a little deadline breathing room, so let’s use it.

[Amrun]

Oops

UNVOTE: heal

[Amrun]

Honestly, I feel kind of unimpressed by nachomamma given his reputation. I feel like there’s been a certain amount of aiming but not really the town leading I hoped for/expected to see. I am somewhat uncomfortable that he entered advocating for fighting someone but later shifted to wanting to share hectic, and while I do think hectic is probably town I think his gimmick is a weak reason to be TRing him.

I’m having a feeling like I’ve said some of this before, but I’m not certain, and to get back into this game I sort of need to reiterate some of the points to myself

I think my behavior has been similar to Nacho’s on this point - why is it scummy for him but ok for me?

[Amrun]

Oh, actually I think suji is locktown but it’s for a very angleshooty reason I’d rather avoid

Do share.

[Amrun]

#452 from Sherlock is Townie and does a super good job reperesenting why I also townread chemist. He just did a better job putting it into words.

[Amrun]

Oops

UNVOTE: heal

This isn't valid.
Nothing that's not red or yellow counts in this game

HEAL: unvote

Does this work?

[Amrun]

HURT: unvote

I can agree to forgo this for now given I believe Farkran will, with more certainty, make his alignment known in a way that I can understand it. I do not see how you are reading our interaction as necessarily Town versus Town though, SherlockHolmes.

I did read through your content and I find most of it to be concerning Nachomamma8, Pine/Psyche being a null read, and Chemist-422 being a town lean. I have commented on the first. I agree with the second. I cannot say on the third as I do not see enough from Chemist1422 to make a determination one way or the other.

HURT: Nachomamma8

Yowch, unvote Farkran after pressure, but not because of a townread. only to vote with him on a wagon of his creation.


Please y’all can we fight this?

[Amrun]

Also, to be clear amrun, me saying I think your scum game is stronger than your town game is not me putting down your town game: I’m saying I think your scum game is *very* strong while your town game is just *strong*

I also really didn’t mean to be rude on the reputation thing, I like you a lot, but it’s just that I’d heard of nacho before I ever played with him or saw him playing in a game and I only got to know you since you got back to site

No offense taken. Nacho and I were peers at one point but he went on to improve / gain reputation while I siteflaked so I think the difference in reputation is accurate.

I would like to know who you’re an alt of though to help me read you. Mind sharing?

[Amrun]

HURT: unvote

I can agree to forgo this for now given I believe Farkran will, with more certainty, make his alignment known in a way that I can understand it. I do not see how you are reading our interaction as necessarily Town versus Town though, SherlockHolmes.

I did read through your content and I find most of it to be concerning Nachomamma8, Pine/Psyche being a null read, and Chemist-422 being a town lean. I have commented on the first. I agree with the second. I cannot say on the third as I do not see enough from Chemist1422 to make a determination one way or the other.

HURT: Nachomamma8

Yowch, unvote Farkran after pressure, but not because of a townread. only to vote with him on a wagon of his creation.


Please y’all can we fight this?

Farkran is not voting Nachomamma8, and I was explicit that I expect to be able understand his alignment later in the game. You will find that I do not respond to pressure.

Oh my bad 100%, I mixed up Sherlock and Farkran here. That is retracted.

I still don’t like your unvote here given your doubling down of suspicion once Farkran replaced in. I think Farkran’s points on this matter were quite good.

The only counterpoint I can think of is it would be easier to stay on the competing wagon than to try and wagon someone like nacho, as scum. But nacho has had an absence so he might appear to be an easier target than is actually true. Hmm

[Amrun]

Replica, in what way is that different than how you’d expect Chara to handle that thought train as town?

[Amrun]

Replica, in what way is that different than how you’d expect Chara to handle that thought train as town?

I'm not familiar with Chara. I don't know how they'd normally handle it as town. I highlighted it as something very different than the way

I

think as town, and exactly what this difference was.

To more explicitly outline what happened for you: Chara did not expect Nacho to townread them. Nacho townread them. Chara "can't help but like it". I post about how different this is from my style of thinking: I don't like when something surprises me or doesn't match up to my expectations.

I don’t understand this at all.

If Chara is town, why would they not like nacho townreading them? That is a valid reason to rethink your read on someone.

This is far too black and white for me. People don’t function that way. They’re multidimensional.

[Amrun]

Honest question: Do you know what the word "I" means?

The irony of that post is that I'm expecting a lot more multidimensionality to Chara than your post is.

Yes, I do. But I don’t follow your train of thought, clearly, which is more concerning to me than following the train of thought and disagreeing with it.

[Amrun]

@Replica: Yes, and none of that is contrary to what I’m saying. What I don’t understand is why you think Chara thinks nacho townreading him is not what he would expect of town nacho.

[Amrun]

@Replica: Yes, and none of that is contrary to what I’m saying. What I don’t understand is why you think Chara thinks nacho townreading him is not what he would expect of town nacho.

Probably because Chara said in the post that the townread was unexpected, if I really dug deep and had to guess.

Granted, Chara could have technically been referring to scum Nacho. This would be a valid reading of the post iirc.

That is absolutely how I read that post and I think your interpretation of that post is kind of insane and nonsensical. At least I understand the actual words you are saying now, though.

[Amrun]

I mean, I didn’t even read the thread before you caught up on your own, so that’s a weak reason to TR someone.

[Amrun]

Do you want to update it?

HURT: pops

:v

Why not join me on Suji?

[Amrun]

Do you want to update it?

HURT: pops

:v

Why not join me on Suji?

Because I don’t have a why yet

I’ll read the slot soon

We don’t have a lot of time. Can you engage a little bit more so we don’t no lynch?

[Amrun]

We have like 3-4 days right?

I still think we should spare Hectic today

Had. It’s winding down now.

Imagine a world where we can’t spare, because we are already in a world where we should not spare. Who would you fight?

[Amrun]

Why not join me on Suji?

Your reasoning on me feels very much like reaching since I have explained all of my actions, and you were forced to walk the most damning thing back. In your own view - and without referring to someone else's - why do you scum read me?

This is extremely misrepresentative so I’m not going to answer it.

Your wagon is my wagon - I’ve already stated my reasoning in my own words, and was the first to do so. Implying heavily that I am sheeping and have unoriginal reasons is disingenuous at best. Anyone honestly wishing for this answer can ISO me.


This also serves as an answer to Farkran’s questions.

[Amrun]

Why not join me on Suji?

Your reasoning on me feels very much like reaching since I have explained all of my actions, and you were forced to walk the most damning thing back. In your own view - and without referring to someone else's - why do you scum read me?

This is extremely misrepresentative so I’m not going to answer it.

Your wagon is my wagon - I’ve already stated my reasoning in my own words, and was the first to do so. Implying heavily that I am sheeping and have unoriginal reasons is disingenuous at best. Anyone honestly wishing for this answer can ISO me.


This also serves as an answer to Farkran’s questions.

It is not close to extremely misrepresentative, so your dismissal causes me concern. Your initial rationale for your scum read on me was that I was attempting to blend in (see post 146), which I viewed as weak on its initial foundation, but we can assume you did not. You subsequently stated that additionally, you found my tone to be indicative of scum (see post 153); however, if you truly wished to assess this you would be able to see that this is my tone across all of my games. Next, despite initially saying you scum read me for attempting to blend in, you asserted you did not scum read me for that (see 165) after I questioned you, and instead re-asserted your scum read for my tone (see my previous comment regarding that). You then stated you thought my recent contributions were improved (see 254) and moved to another wagon. When Farkran entered and then stated a scum read on me, you began to walk back to my wagon (see posts 404 and 410) and then misrepresentated my actions, despite them being transparently stated (see post 489). When I called you on this, you walked it back but then stated you didn't like my unvote anyway (despite me stating why I made the action that I made) and deferred to Farkran's comments on my play.

Thus, I am asking for

your

current rationale for voting me without deferring to someone else's. This is not extremely misrepresentative. Please answer.

That is not what #165 is saying. You haven’t read that right. I definitely did (and do) scumread you for trying to blend in, and your tone. I don’t care what your tone in other games are tbh. I am reading you for this game. Secondhand meta is trash. You’re playing a lot of semantics games here and trying to conflate what I am saying with what you are trying to say I’m saying, and I don’t like that at all.

I DID make an error in remembrance which caused me to say something untrue, and when I realized that, I took it back immediately and made that very clear. I still don’t like your unvote. There were two things in that post and trying to make them one thing just because I made a mistake in the second thing isn’t helping you in my eyes.

Farkran came in armed and active and all of a sudden seemed harder to lynch, while nacho was quiet due to being away. I don’t like the jump from one absent slot to another because the first one was replaced and showing resistance.

None of my reasons have changed. Just because you offer explanations doesn’t mean I accept them. Explaining yourself doesn’t exonerate you.

I am not fire and brimstone level of surety on you and I won’t pretend to be, which is why I was happy to pressure Asriel since there was seemingly support there for a bit, but that doesn’t make you not the best lynch (or fight) for today.

[Amrun]

Amrun is a difficult case in that i agree with what she's said, and can identify with that. such as 254 as i mentioned. (about not wanting to let up on Sujimichi) but i don't know if making sense is enough.

Amrun, what about Replica did you like more? besides the contextual mistakes, which were rectified when pointed out, i feel like their posting feel has been fairly consistent since they replaced in.

Idk, I still think his statements about Nacho’s town case on Hectic is busywork at best. It clearly never intended to go anywhere. I DON’T like that.

In general, I like that he’s being active and producing content.

I definitely do not want to spare him today.

Chara, I did answer this. If this answer is insufficient, please ask me a more specific question.

I don’t think Replica’s posting has been inconsistent, which is why my estimation of it sort of improved. I think it’s very black and white, which contrary to your opinion, I think is very easy to fake as scum.

As for the other post we argued over, I think you’re misreading our discussion. Replica and I have opposite readings of that post, not the same one. That’s why the argument doesn’t make sense, because his interpretation of the post doesn’t make sense.

It could be a genuinely wrong interpretation, but it is a legitimate scum strategy to try and build a house on the sand and hope it lasts long enough for a mislynch, which is why I am wary of Replica.

I am not really interested in fighting him, though. The jury is still out.

[Amrun]

@Sujimichi:

-Honestly, I simply am not rehashing why I felt you were blending in. I explained that as much as I care to already. I will add though that voting to fight nacho when you did, and also for asriel, are right in scum sweet spots for “going with the flow” and further my “blending” read of you.

-Chara’s explanation of my post is basically correct. I never retracted my feelings about blending in. I was saying I didn’t scumread you based on post count etc.

-Not writing a thesis restating something that was JUST said is not someone “not really agreeing.” I’m not annotating a bibliography for shit found readily in thread. I was referring to Farkran’s points about you doubling down on a scumread of his slot without it seeming genuine. This impression was furthered by you inviting when Farkran pressured you, all the while stating you don’t respond to pressure.

-You’re allowed to vote whomever you want. I’m allowed to scumread you for it.

-For awhile, you seemed less concerned with optics to me and to be loosening up a little, bit not anymore.

[Amrun]

Also, I rarely, if ever, go and read some other games I’m not involved with for meta. I am well known for thinking that’s a waste of time.

[Amrun]

Could you please answer my question regarding tone? That was a foundational point of your scum read on me.

Can you restate it? I believe I’ve answered your questions so I may have missed it.

[Amrun]

Without understanding someone's natural tone, how can you utilize it as an argument?

Also, I rarely, if ever, go and read some other games I’m not involved with for meta. I am well known for thinking that’s a waste of time.

I firmly believe that you don’t come to understand someone’s natural tone by cold reading games you didn’t play with them.

I can only judge your tone by what I experience. My accuracy would improve over time and experience with you. Oh well.

[Amrun]

So, admittedly, it is without basis at current. For the record, I do not advocate reading prior games as a good use of time either, but I also do not attempt to use someone's tone to support my stance when I am unfamiliar with them.

Thank you for your answers. I do not find all of your responses to be a good support for your position, but I am obviously coming from a standpoint affected by bias. It should provide good content for others to assess.

I’m not sure why you can’t judge someone’s tone just by ... reading it? That’s typically what I always do. I don’t really understand what you’re driving at.

[Amrun]

I thought I was quite clear on that point. Without understanding someone's natural, or baseline, tone, you do not have a foundation with which to judge whether or not it is indicative of Mafia (or Town for that matter). You can make an assumption but it is one, by admission, without a basis.

For example, I cannot use the tone of your posts to make an assessment of your alignment this game as it is our first game together. I can describe your tone as it comes across to me, but I do not know what that is indicative of. I do not know if your tone this game is subtlely (or drastically) different from your tone in other games because, again, I have no baseline from which to evaluate.

I disagree. If I played every game of mafia with players all new to me every time, I would still be more accurate than inaccurate. Certain types of posting and tone is more likely to come from scum than town, and vice versa. You’re acting like it’s a stab in the dark, and you’re just bumbling around until you have 100 games of meta with each player. That’s just not how the game works.

[Amrun]

Possibly, but I disagree, I guess we will need to leave it so that we do not clutter the thread in discussion of theoretical stances. I think your statement of 100 games is quite extreme and disingenuous as a summation of what I said.

I do agree that it’s a theory dispute at this point. I am still glad to understand your POV better.

[Amrun]

@Chara: I don’t remember reading surprise into it but my memory is a little jumbled now due to the back and forth.

[Amrun]

@Replica: idk maybe black/white isn’t exactly right. Maybe rigid is better. Let’s hug it out?

If y’all fucking fight nacho day 1 I’ll have fisticuffs with all of you individually.

[Amrun]

@Replica: idk maybe black/white isn’t exactly right. Maybe rigid is better. Let’s hug it out?

If y’all fucking fight nacho day 1 I’ll have fisticuffs with all of you individually.

Why? What is it about his play that you find so strongly indicative of Town?

What about his play is it that you find so strongly to be scum? Everyone’s cases are garbage.

[Amrun]

Nacho hasn’t done anything scummy in my eyes. All the “cases” on him seem nebulous and some of them seem opportunistic.

I’m not so overly sure he’s town but I think lynching him because he has a high reputation and has had a V/LA in the middle of the phase making it difficult for him to engage is ridiculous.

He’s a townread but the fisticuffs is about the annoyance of lynching day 1 the best player in the game for shit reasons. I joined to play with him. Idk Undertale and couldn’t care less. I just wanted to play with Nacho.

[Amrun]

Nacho hasn’t done anything scummy in my eyes. All the “cases” on him seem nebulous and some of them seem opportunistic.

I’m not so overly sure he’s town but I think lynching him because he has a high reputation and has had a V/LA in the middle of the phase making it difficult for him to engage is ridiculous.

He’s a townread but the fisticuffs is about the annoyance of lynching day 1 the best player in the game for shit reasons. I joined to play with him. Idk Undertale and couldn’t care less. I just wanted to play with Nacho.

town for me, but i don't see anything he's done as loserish.
in fact, i was a little paranoid when he first locked us as town.
but he's obviously very experienced so maybe he's just that good that he can instantly tell someone's town based on style of posting alone.
and loser!Nacho coming in to push through a SPARE on town day 1 seems like an odd strategy, dontcha think?
unless he thinks it gives him significant towncred but that doesn't really work without flips for SPAREs.
hell if i know.
welp, i see that you and my old pal Sujimichi have had a lot to talk about while i was gone.
i'll get to that tonight.

I agree and frankly, if he was going to fake a confident townread on someone to spare them and get them out of his hair, I would not have expected it to be you. Especially after arguing against sparing.

A better scum strat for that is to pick someone who is familiar and a threat to pocket/remove threat by sparing.

[Amrun]

How much history do you have with nacho, Hectic? Have you ever caught him as scum before?

[Amrun]

nacho could be scum rn and his professed hectic read would

still

be broadly sound

There’s no planet on which Hectic/nacho is SvS. Agreed.

[Amrun]

nacho could be scum rn and his professed hectic read would

still

be broadly sound

Why don’t you have any scumread, Psyche?

[Amrun]

So, unfortunately, I will be traveling from now until the 2nd of February. My activity will be a little more limited than I'd like and I'll be stuck phone posting, but I will still be a force of nature.

Like, y’all aren’t even reading his posts, so how can I trust you to understand the gamestate? This is only the first and most clear time it’s mentioned. Anyone scumreading nacho without acknowledging this is automatically suspect.

[Amrun]

Nacho hasn’t done anything scummy in my eyes. All the “cases” on him seem nebulous and some of them seem opportunistic.

I’m not so overly sure he’s town but I think lynching him because he has a high reputation and has had a V/LA in the middle of the phase making it difficult for him to engage is ridiculous.

He’s a townread but the fisticuffs is about the annoyance of lynching day 1 the best player in the game for shit reasons. I joined to play with him. Idk Undertale and couldn’t care less. I just wanted to play with Nacho.

town for me, but i don't see anything he's done as loserish.
in fact, i was a little paranoid when he first locked us as town.
but he's obviously very experienced so maybe he's just that good that he can instantly tell someone's town based on style of posting alone.
and loser!Nacho coming in to push through a SPARE on town day 1 seems like an odd strategy, dontcha think?
unless he thinks it gives him significant towncred but that doesn't really work without flips for SPAREs.
hell if i know.
welp, i see that you and my old pal Sujimichi have had a lot to talk about while i was gone.
i'll get to that tonight.

I agree and frankly, if he was going to fake a confident townread on someone to spare them and get them out of his hair, I would not have expected it to be you. Especially after arguing against sparing.

A better scum strat for that is to pick someone who is familiar and a threat to pocket/remove threat by sparing.

The problem with this is that it’s making an assumption about scumplay that I disagree with beyond a certain level, which is that one move is meaningfully more likely than another once a certain level of scumplay is reached.

The fact that it is suboptimal is exactly why a scum player of calibre might do that some of the time. I highly doubt that nacho (unless his scumgame is much weaker than his towngame, which idk) sees himself as limited in what options are available to scum!him. So approaching the question of “if he’s scum, would he do this suboptimal thing” is meaningless imo.

I don’t know if I explained that well, but I can try again if necessary

I follow, and I don’t necessarily disagree. I’m not making a town case here. I am just saying that to date, no one’s cases on nacho impress me, and some are downright awful and opportunistic. I won’t fight nacho today. I refuse.

Also, if Farkran slot ends up flipping scum, I would lynch alimdia with impugnity, and vice versa, for alimdia’s redirect to Pine. I keep meaning to say that and forgetting.

[Amrun]

Interesting, about Sujimichi. I’m hesitant to give a clear for this reason, but I acknowledge it has weight. At the very least, it’s probably better not to fight there today. Blegh.

HURT: Psyche

Not having a scumread is gross. I don’t know psyche enough to know if he could easily fabricate one as scum for optics.

[Amrun]

@sherlock: so you think hectic and nacho could be scum together?

[Amrun]

Because sparing is trash and I don’t consider that a full confirmation.

[Amrun]

Why would this be helpful to do?

And four to FIVE?! Surely one or more of these is wrong. Sparing one that’s wrong is a major deal, and we have no info. No thanks, no. Would rather never spare ever.

[Amrun]

I'm sorry but that's inconceivable. This is close to a confirmation as can imaginably occur without mod/PR intervention. Are you scum?

I don’t even want to spare the friendly neighbor today so .... I don’t really care what you think. It has been discussed in depth why sparing FN today is harmful. Same deal for some skeevy thing like this. I did get my fight vote off of him though.

[Amrun]

So, unfortunately, I will be traveling from now until the 2nd of February. My activity will be a little more limited than I'd like and I'll be stuck phone posting, but I will still be a force of nature.

@suji

Thank you. I do not view this as a statement of a leave of absence as Amrun indicated, but it does explain reduced activity which I mentioned beforehand I was already trying not to use in my read of Nachomamma8.

V/LA is vacation / limited access. He is clearly declaring limited access with an end date. That’s a v/la.

[Amrun]

Like, y’all aren’t even reading his posts, so how can I trust you to understand the gamestate? This is only the first and most clear time it’s mentioned. Anyone scumreading nacho without acknowledging this is automatically suspect.

This doesn't mean anything for alignment I'm pretty sure, so I'm going to separate this post, but is painfully ironic from someone who regularly responds to posts without reading them (evidenced by <1 minute timestamps), and has publicly acknowledged not reading the thread.

I do not respond to posts without reading them... what an asinine assertion. How could anyone respond to a post without reading it first? Also, saying early game “hey, haven’t read the thread yet, catching up ASAP” and then doing so is completely and wholly different than trying to lynch someone without reading their ISO enough to realize they’re on v/la. A lot of people seemed to have missed it so maybe it was less obvious than I thought it was, but this post rubs me the wrong way, but not in an alignment way. It’s just annoying.

[Amrun]

Like, y’all aren’t even reading his posts, so how can I trust you to understand the gamestate? This is only the first and most clear time it’s mentioned. Anyone scumreading nacho without acknowledging this is automatically suspect.

This doesn't mean anything for alignment I'm pretty sure, so I'm going to separate this post, but is painfully ironic from someone who regularly responds to posts without reading them (evidenced by <1 minute timestamps), and has publicly acknowledged not reading the thread.

I do not respond to posts without reading them... what an asinine assertion. How could anyone respond to a post without reading it first? Also, saying early game “hey, haven’t read the thread yet, catching up ASAP” and then doing so is completely and wholly different than trying to lynch someone without reading their ISO enough to realize they’re on v/la. A lot of people seemed to have missed it so maybe it was less obvious than I thought it was, but this post rubs me the wrong way, but not in an alignment way. It’s just annoying.

#274 responds to a gigantic post in a minute. #319 exists, highlighting that you missed it

twice

. #536 says that you hadn't read the thread at the time of (I think) #489. There are valid reasons to do the first, the second was incredibly frustrating but it's not like I don't do the same sometimes, the third is differing in its importance. I found it ironic but I don't think it's AI.

We both think lynching Nacho is awful, granted if lynching becomes imminent he's who I'm voting. As I wrote the above posts, I felt our goals aligned but that difference means their intersection could be a lot nastier than I hoped. Maybe I was too optimistic. Either way, highlighting the irony was unnecessary and I need to go back to not letting my ego take offense at your ego.

You have seriously misunderstood a lot of my posting above. In every one of those instances, that’s not what I was saying. I’m not saying I never make reading mistakes or miss something, as I obviously do, and have in this game and probably every game I’ve ever been in or will be in. But you’re assigning meanings to my posts that don’t exist and don’t make sense to me. For example, I wasn’t saying I hadn’t read the thread then, I was saying between Farkran asking for catchups and clearly having read the thread, I wasn’t even caught up to present in the game myself, so using that as a way to townread people is faulty when a LOT of players weren’t even around at all in that timeframe even more than myself. I didn’t go back and check the timeframes - it could be that I did catch up in that timeframe and forgot. I don’t really care. That’s not the point I was trying to make. Plenty of people weren’t even online in that timeframe. I’m not going to reread the thread 40 times whenever I want to post something. I am a busy professional with a young child and when I post, I’m shooting from the hip because I have 5 minutes in which to do so.

However, I don’t think it’s productive to rehash these things. I think we can both make better efforts to understand the meaning of what was said rather than quibble over semantics.

FWIW I argue with my husband about this same thing all the time.

[Amrun]

Yeah I liked Chara’s response.

I will spare if I need to to progress the game. Sparing now after a full day of active discussion isn’t as bad but a couple of hard flips would make it better.

[Amrun]

henlo

I'll try to get to reading stuff soon, any suggestions?

Nacho, Chara, Amrun, and your updated opinion on psyche, maybe? Also almidia. And cast a vote.

I think Psyche is too sure about Sujimichi and it might make him scum. Whereas Sherlock I think is extremely town for how they went about it.

Alimdia isn’t overly scummy but I’d be fine fighting there as well.

[Amrun]

I think Psyche has a good point here. I mean, I had mentally decided Sherlock is town, regardless of Sujimichi’s alignment.

I’d still rather fight, but my heal vote is misplaced.

HEAL: Sherlock


And I have to admit I like Psyche’s recent postings more and understand him better now.

[Amrun]

HURT: alimdiah

Can we choo choo up in this bitch?

[Amrun]

Sorry, broski. I am the greenest of the green this game.

[Amrun]

Alimdia is NOT v/la. I think we can flashwagon some content there.

I don’t really have a case but even though the slot has produced an OK amount of content, they managed not to comment on a lot of significant actions and goings on.

My PoE narrows and alimdia is firmly in it.

[Amrun]

V/LA 24 hours - glad we bumped up 8 pages in the last day tho

I forgot they posted this but this has expired so they should be back. They produced content right before this. So they’ve been largely present but sidestepping significant happenings.


There does seem to be an element of limited access but I think since that has ended, a wagon can nicely motivate some content.

[Amrun]

I agree with Farkran. I would prefer to only spare FN, and not today.

[Amrun]

HEAL: Sujimichi

At this point, we should just spare Sujimichi.


I’m not liking Farkran’s most recent contributions. I do think his theory is right about fighting being superior due to the risk of an incorrect spare. But this close to deadline, at this low level of consensus, sparing Sujimichi is the best move I think.

I also didn’t like Chara saying he’d spare Hectic over Sujimichi/Sherlock. Just, what?

[Amrun]

HEAL: Sujimichi

At this point, we should just spare Sujimichi.


I’m not liking Farkran’s most recent contributions. I do think his theory is right about fighting being superior due to the risk of an incorrect spare. But this close to deadline, at this low level of consensus, sparing Sujimichi is the best move I think.

I also didn’t like Chara saying he’d spare Hectic over Sujimichi/Sherlock. Just, what?

this post is delightfully asynchronic.

am i really the only one who thinks Hectic as scum who denied his spare earlier is obscenely unlikely?

also, nothing to do with the game, but i'd like to ask references to me be it/its, or they/them if you're uncomfortable with that. (this isn't just to Amrun, don't worry)

I also think Hectic is town. Higher than the other two is a bit odd IMO. But functionally... I mean I townread him, so.

Also soooooo sorry about the pronouns and I’ll probably fuck up again but not on purpose.

[Amrun]

@Replica: Interesting looking at how someone looks at my play. I think you think I’m more rigid than I am, but that’s ok. You have to start somewhere in the game, so if I see a classic scummy behavior I’m going to explore it. But of course they don’t always come from scum. I’ll 180 a read in a heartbeat and have been well known to do so. In fact I recently lost a LyLo because I flipped a bad read to a good one and the transition was too abrupt to be believable (I guess).

@alimdia: your v/la was over, but sure I acknowledge you deserve time to catch up. Doesn’t mean I can’t motivate that.

A ton of people already voted nacho AND his v/la didn’t end until 2/2

[Amrun]

HEAL: Sujimichi

At this point, we should just spare Sujimichi.


I’m not liking Farkran’s most recent contributions. I do think his theory is right about fighting being superior due to the risk of an incorrect spare. But this close to deadline, at this low level of consensus, sparing Sujimichi is the best move I think.

I also didn’t like Chara saying he’d spare Hectic over Sujimichi/Sherlock. Just, what?

Actually, before i go to bed (2 am), i have a question for you, amrun.

Since you gave up pushing for a fight resolution, i assume you are going to work with pre-flip associatives in this game. If i am scum, who am i partner with? If Chara is scum, who is it partner with?

Poke

This would be useful

Not really - i still hope to fight tomorrow.

I think Chara could be scum with Nacho, but probably not. Chemist/alimdia/you, any would work as buddies. I don’t scumread Chara though.

If you flipped scum, I would never shut up until alimdia was dead.

[Amrun]

I still want to fight today but I can’t do it on my own. At least we are sparing someone who can’t be wrong.


As for you/alimdia, the way alimdia went out of their way to point out that line was lurking as much as Asriel.

[Amrun]

I still want to fight today but I can’t do it on my own. At least we are sparing someone who can’t be wrong.


As for you/alimdia, the way alimdia went out of their way to point out that line was lurking as much as Asriel.

*Pine

Also this post was addressed to Farkran

[Amrun]

I hate sparing. The only good and true info we got out of it is that Sherlock was town, which of course scum took advantage of. But I want to re-read some things and see if I can glean anything.

[Amrun]

There is literally no one I feel comfortable sparing in this moment, and I don’t think that will change.

Farkran’s case is BONKERS, but almost maybe too bonkers to be scum.

For some reason I’m feeling like Psyche is genuine today, even if I disagree with him.

I do kind of feel like one of nacho/alimdia slot are scum now, though likely not both. I await seeing what these slots do.

I do have research to do before I firm up my reads.

[Amrun]

Forgot to say still prefer alimdia slot for scum over nacho.

[Amrun]

Farkran’s case is BONKERS

Why?

Even if one or all of these people are scum, I think a lot of your reasoning is false. You have some good points but it just seems totally out of left field to me.

I want to reread for myself though.

[Amrun]

Farkran’s case is BONKERS

Why?

Even if one or all of these people are scum, I think a lot of your reasoning is false. You have some good points but it just seems totally out of left field to me.

I want to reread for myself though.

Please re-read and point out where i am wrong or making it up. Because honestly i don't see how those trio's reads could be genuine. Also i'd like to hear why you shifted your scumreads from me/chara to nacho/almidia(bingle) today, i didn't ignore that - i was just waiting for you to speak up, but it seems like you're back to scumread me and i'm interested in why.

My scumreads were never you/Chara. From the beginning of the day, it was you/Sujimichi. Later in the day, it was alimdia/Psyche, with a small mention of you.

Now it’s more like ... you/alimdia but I haven’t really committed for the day because I want to re-examine some things, as previously stated. For the most part, anyone pushing something with reasoning that doesn’t seem to accurately reflect the meaning/intent of the players involved is suspect and that’s definitely you right now.

No idea why you think I scumread Chara. I do not.

[Amrun]

To be honest, I don't have a good read on Hectic. I'm very bad at getting townreads, which is what this game really asks us to do. I saw some good continuity on a read iirc but I'm very dependent on expectations, and I don't see why scum Hectic

doesn't

play like this.

Things like this though are exactly why I love sparing Day 1: We get the most leeway in our spares today.

Ok, good, since you mentioned it we'll use this as an example.

If you single out Hectic as a good d1 spare to you, how is he NOT A GOOD SPARE IN D2? Just tell me how you can think like this and be town.

Huh? Is this a real argument?

Why would reads not evolve with the game? What?

[Amrun]

To be honest, I don't have a good read on Hectic. I'm very bad at getting townreads, which is what this game really asks us to do. I saw some good continuity on a read iirc but I'm very dependent on expectations, and I don't see why scum Hectic

doesn't

play like this.

Things like this though are exactly why I love sparing Day 1: We get the most leeway in our spares today.

Ok, good, since you mentioned it we'll use this as an example.

If you single out Hectic as a good d1 spare to you, how is he NOT A GOOD SPARE IN D2? Just tell me how you can think like this and be town.

Huh? Is this a real argument?

Why would reads not evolve with the game? What?

Tell me what has hectic done to fall down in Replica's spare list, from Replica POV. Anything, just give me one thing that could validate that read shift. The only reason Hectic wasn't spared yesterday is because sherlock found a huge townslip of sujimichi and he subsequently claimed, otherwise Hectic would have been hammered with no issues at all.

I mean, I personally did not like Hectic’s d2 start saying “well we might as well spare now” without reads that seem to make sense with that plan. Replica could think any number of things. I think not understanding this is really odd and kinda reads like TMI to me, like it could be from the perspective of someone who KNOWS Hectic is town.

[Amrun]

Noting agreement with Farkran’s 1021.

Absolving people of having scumreads is going to kill this game.

[Amrun]

alright, night

if anyone else wants to discuss what I think about the wallpost I'll try not to lose 100% of my focus

I would like to know your reads instead.

[Amrun]

I think chemist’s scumread of nacho is fair. Why townread Farkran though?

[Amrun]

Priority imo is getting Bingle caught up and Nacho in the game.

Good luck with that. I’ll skim some tonight but I straight up don’t have the free time to try hard here so I’m prolly just gonna look for someone to sheep.

Then why would you replace in?

[fight]Bingle[/fight]

[Amrun]

Dang it.

HURT: Bingle

[Amrun]

Priority imo is getting Bingle caught up and Nacho in the game.

Good luck with that. I’ll skim some tonight but I straight up don’t have the free time to try hard here so I’m prolly just gonna look for someone to sheep.

Then why would you replace in?

[fight]Bingle[/fight]

Pops asked me to repeatedly and I helped design the setup.

That’s not a good reason if you don’t intend to try.

I am going to be upset if you’re town.

[Amrun]

I think chemist’s scumread of nacho is fair. Why townread Farkran though?

I liked his wall and tone in his responses

What did you like about his wall? You don’t seem to agree with much of it.

[Amrun]

I think chemist’s scumread of nacho is fair. Why townread Farkran though?

I liked his wall and tone in his responses

What did you like about his wall? You don’t seem to agree with much of it.

I’m inclined to read it as genuine because he put thought and effort into it and I think his responses made that clear

No arguments that he put thought and effort, I just think he would do that as either alignment.

[Amrun]

I feel you. Right in this moment I’m leaning that way myself.

[Amrun]

Lynch Bingle with me, Psyche. You know you want to.

[Amrun]

this is important so i'll repeat it. pursuing both spares and fights seriously is more valuable than only pursuing spares, even if you ultimately want a spare.

Psyche has some short walls, that's exciting.
regarding being cagey about towncasing: i still don't know if it will do more harm than good.

i do scumread Farkran but i don't love Psyche's angle of "anyone not hard townreading Sujimichi from his play should have been" because it's both hindsighty and silly to expect everyone will read him the same way.

I keep flip flopping my read on Farkran, like, day to day. Right now I feel like he’s pushing in a way that seems he believes it, which is towny. Tomorrow I’ll change my mind.

[Amrun]

Thanks, Chara, for having the patience to point out the flaws in Farkran’s thinking FMPOV. I do not have that patience lately.

It’s remarkable how in sync I am with Chara in this moment which is major townpoints in my book.

[Amrun]

i think my read on alimdea is firm i'd be all about lynching him if i were all about lynching people

I NEED an alimdia flip to help me sort gamestate. If alimdia/Bingle is town, I need to re-evaluate. Can we compromise?


@Chara:

I think alimdia’s ISO looked like mostly busywork. It isn’t bad, per se, but like when she went through ISOs, that’s a weird way to scumhunt and not much came of it. It was just ~producing content~. And I really didn’t like the “but why is Pine getting a free pass?” thing. It is for this reason that I think Farkran has most buddy equity if this slot flips scum. Everyone was pressuring Asriel, who was a lurker, and alimdia comes in with a soft defense of “but Pine is lurking too.”

Clearly, alimdia had real life things going on, and I don’t mean to suggest that they didn’t, but the last scumgame I played with alimdia, they also had trouble faking scumreads FMPOV. They were coached into bussing third buddy by Menalque, but the progression was poor so I caught them out. (No one listened - town lost, etc). But it had the same feeling to me here as nothing being “wrong” to really nitpick but just not really connecting with the gamestate in a believable way. That game was Guns N’ Roses 3 for the record.

And Bingle is sucking. I’m not buying he replaces into a low page count game early on with no intention of reading or doing anything but sheeping. And if he did, I’m going to have a bone to pick post game.

[Amrun]

@Farkran: I think the ideas behind what you are saying are sound. People should not be excused from making scumreads, and should be accountable for their progressions.

However, the way you’ve gone about it here just leaves me wondering if you’re really digging for intent. A couple of times I really felt like they were misrepresentative of what was going on at the time, or like focusing on the surface and not what’s underneath.

[Amrun]

snip

HURT: Hectic

I’m not going to read ISO’s and I’m sheeping you because Amrun says you logic is shit without disagreeing with any results. When the consensus seems to be “the new guy can solve the game for us!” actually pushing something is probably a town move and I don’t see signs that anyone else has done so.

I do disagree with results.

Hectic is probably town, Chara is very likely town, and Replica is a townlean though not as confident. All of this is readily available information. I don’t know what gave you the impression that I didn’t disagree with Farkran’s results besides you not remotely giving a shit or trying.

@Farkran: I’ll respond to you later. Don’t let me forget!

[Amrun]

Perhaps it would be more understandable as a detailed timeline:

1) Chara townreads Hectic because of Hectic content
2) Hectic reaches Spare-1, Chara unvotes and states Hectic is not towny enough
3) Hectic scumreads Chara because of point 2
4) Chara puts back Hectic in its top townreads
5) Hectic unvotes Chara but is still suspicious of it
6) I scumread Replica
7) Chara scumreads me because i scumread Replica
8) Replica townreads Chara because it scumreads me
-d2 happens-
8) Hectic now townreads Chara for no reason at all
9) Hectic now scumreads me because i scumread him
10) Suddenly, Hectic, Chara and Replica formed a townbloc of their own

literally just because of how the players involved are reading themselves

whereas i am pushed as a scumread because i scumread them.

Just no.

I think this list is the thing that struck me the worst. Chara did a good job of breaking it down point by point and I don’t have time to do that myself, but I think any list with reasons like “Chara scumreads me because I scumread Replica” and “Replica townreads Chara because it scumreads me” (demonstrably false) as well as saying people do things for “no reason at all” is not in good faith, and is not trying to determine intent behind actions. This read strongly to me like trying to paint actions in the worst possible light, the opposite of that.

Now, the wall you just did to me, Farkran, I don’t dislike. That reasoning I can understand. I don’t really agree with it, but it’s a train of thought I follow. This quoted post, definitely not. There are smaller less egregious examples littered throughout but this post in particular I had a real problem with.

[Amrun]

I mean I just basically disagree with your conclusions since I townread the people in question.

[Amrun]

Sorry if I was unclear, since I do understand how you read that post - I disagree with a number of your reasonings as well, such as Replica townreading Chara for scumreading, which I think is fairly obviously untrue. You make a few good points and a few bad points and I ultimately disagree with your conclusion.

[Amrun]

I finally bother yo put my alimdia scumread to words and literally no one has a single word to say about it?

[Amrun]

I finally bother yo put my alimdia scumread to words and literally no one has a single word to say about it?

Maybe try words that aren’t “I wanna policy lynch Bingle for not tryharding”.

lol. Maybe try reading with your eyes.

[Amrun]

wow what a bold misrep

Not really?

Like, we’re talking about 1108 here, right? Cause I see a weak AF meta case that doesn’t even come across as something am believes on someone who apparently wasn’t around, followed by “Bingle wouldn’t replace in if he was busy.”

How is that not a shitty policy lynch?

No, my reasons for wanting to lynch the slot all have to do with alimdia. It is not a meta case, though I did mention another game. My main problem with alimdia is that while they did post content, they went about it in a way that came off to me as an effort to post content rather than an effort to scumhunt. They tried to redirect the town to pay negative attention to the Pine slot without explicitly scumread that slot. This is all very easily explainable from a scum perspective. At the time, I was more concerned with other players but I had my eye there to see how it developed. But then alimdia dropped off and obviously had real life going on so it wasn’t possible to question them.

I was hoping you’d improve the slot, and help me with my read, but instead you’re actively anti-participating so that I can’t get much off of you.


This is a basic restating of my previous post since apparently it was unclear. I think Bingle just didn’t read closely because he didn’t care, though.

[Amrun]

alimdia's iso looked like someone going through the motions, generating the rough appearance of scumhunting-focused content but never really signaling real effort/desire toward that end.
blinkle's looks like someone deliberately assembling a "too scum" defense — dude somehow found a way unconvincingly fake

disengagement

from the game

also i wanna point out with the momentary supposition that bingle is town — it's not day 5 with 200+ pages. pops would have found a replacement for alimdea within several days. the idea that he was desperate and was better off filling the slot with someone openly uninterested in the game instead of waiting for someone with the time and energy come by is just bizarre and speaks to savior complex on bingle's part (that doesn't suit his ingame style here either!).

I mean, pops never even made a post in the replacements thread!

100 x all of this.

Psyche gets it.

[Amrun]

@Farkran:

Hectic deciding to reconsider his stance on Chara I think has very little scum motivation UNLESS they’re scum together. I understand that is your position, but nevertheless. I don’t think Chara would have unvoted Hectic when he was close to being spared if that was the case.

My Chara read is very simple: very rarely do I mind meld with someone that much and they turn out to be scum. VERY rarely.

For that same reason, I have firmed up a townread on Psyche as well due to recent posting.

[Amrun]

you've just moved from saying's amrun's 1108 case is just her advocating for a policy lynch on you for not tryharding...to acknowledging that she actually spent

most

of the case (the two largest of three paragraphs!)
focused on alimdia that wasn't policy lynch advocacy

I’ll bite. What part of her case that isn’t “I want to policy lynch jingle” am I supposed to be able to engage over?

How is wanting to lynch me on the basis that I’m not going back to read the rest of the game and am going to devote significantly less effort to this game than I usually do as either alignment not policy?

I didn’t expect you to engage in my opinions about alimdia. “Not engaging” is a far cry from what you were doing, which was erasing all of my read on alimdia and trying to frame my vote on you as an attempt to policy lynch you personally.

You, your existence, and your play, are NOT the basis for my vote being on you. Nothing about it. I was trying to fight alimdia at the end of the day yesterday and spared Sujimichi when I failed to convince anyone. YOU WERE NOT YET A PLAYER IN THE GAME.

Your replacing in has made me dislike the slot more because you are purposefully choosing not to play in a gamestate where I think that makes very little sense, and because you post revisionist things like the post I am replying to.

Trying to lynch a slot you have a scumread on will never be a policy lynch.

[Amrun]

I find the insinuation that I’m lying about RL across the site for an advantage in this game pretty insulting when that was the a) something that was made public before I replaced in and b) actually the subject of the most recent momo ban.

Pops asked me to replace in. I told pops I was busy and would have to go vla relatively soon, but if she needed me I could fill the slot. I was sent the role pm. Insisting otherwise is calling me a cheater.

If you don’t want to deal with that, fine. But don’t try to dress a pig in a suit and call it a duke. It’s a policy lynch.

Ok, fine. I’m not trying to say you’re not busy IRL.

I am very comfortable saying if you were, you shouldn’t have replaced in. However, that’s NAI.

I don’t know what else to say to make you understand the basic fact that I have been openly and publicly scumreading your slot since before you inhabited it, and my desire to lynch it has very little to do with you at all. It is not a policy lynch or anything close to it. Trying to discredit it as one is the only truly scummy thing YOU have done since you replaced in.

[Amrun]

Amrun, can you tell me what from Almidia sounded to you as busywork? Because to me it seems that you two were just disagreeing about your reads. Also, there's the point where you are shipping a Farkran+Almidia team but i know that cannot be true - regardless though, you are entitled to believe it because we pretty much are forced to work with preflip associatives in this game (which is something i would promote in standard games too, though, so that's not a problem at all). I recall you saying that Almidia was trying to deflect my wagon by saying Pine was scummier - and from my POV it is more than reasonable to believe so, but that's not the point - the point is that, where's Almidia scum intent in defending my slot if i flip town? To elaborate: isn't your scumcase of Almidia at least partially based on the assumption that i would flip red?

If anything, i'd be scumreading Bingle more than how i'd scumread Almidia at this point, but i would like to see Hectic flip first, because if i am correct, Bingle is never scum in this game.

Alimdia can very easily be scum independent of you being scum. It gives you partner equity but it’s not set in stone.

I think it would also help from a scum point of view to bring negative light to the Pine slot regardless. If Psyche flips scum, this would change.

(Of note: alimdia actually did something similar to a scum buddy in GnR. She drew attention to her lurking, but this was pushed by Menalque behind the scenes and it was a very different gamestate. I think it’s unlikely alimdia would repeat that here.)

[Amrun]

You disagree that Farkran being the only one to actively push something when I replaced in is town indicative?

Are we literally supposed to pretend that scum don’t push things? Idgi

[Amrun]

You disagree that Farkran being the only one to actively push something when I replaced in is town indicative?

Are we literally supposed to pretend that scum don’t push things? Idgi

They don’t tend to push unpopular things when they can afford to sit on their hands, no. Am I wrong that fark has a fairly contentious angle?

Sort of, but there’s no consensus scumread on anyone so there’s no really popular way to go. Most people did townread Hectic so I would say that one qualifies.

(Of note: alimdia actually did something similar to a scum buddy in GnR. She drew attention to her lurking, but this was pushed by Menalque behind the scenes and it was a very different gamestate. I think it’s unlikely alimdia would repeat that here.)

This is what I’m talking about when I say it looks like am doesn’t really believe the case btw.

Why, because I’m actually interested in the truth rather than death tunneling? Also, this is about whether alimdia scum spews Psyche town or not - it has NOTHING to do with alimdia being scum or not. I know you’re a very capable reader so I really don’t understand how you could misread that so badly.

[Amrun]

Why was Sherlock killed last night?

Nacho, bb, plz read.

[Amrun]

Sort of, but there’s no consensus scumread on anyone so there’s no really popular way to go. Most people did townread Hectic so I would say that one qualifies.

That’s kinda my point. No one seems to really strongly believe anything, so weak pushes are completely normal. Fark is pushing something contentious and unpopular when the majority of people are just coasting along. Yours is the second strongest push and I get more of a sense of “Well, maybe this is right and there’s nothing better to go on” than any actual conviction it is right.

I understand the thought process behind TRing Fark for this, I just think there’s quite a number of people who would do this as scum, me included.


And no, I’m not fire and brimstone level of conviction on your slot, not by any means. Faking fire and brimstone is very easy. Can you give me some sort of scum motivation for providing counterpoints to my own arguments, occasionally?

I am sharing my full thoughts, whether they’re sure or not, contradictory or not. I am searching for the truth, not to be ~right~. If I was fully sure on alimdia, I would have a more convincing case. I’m not going to lie about my level of surety. That doesn’t make it not the best lynch for the day, especially when dealing with PoE.

I am not sure enough on anyone to spare them, either.

[Amrun]

I understand the thought process behind TRing Fark for this, I just think there’s quite a number of people who would do this as scum, me included.

This is the correct level of paranoia to have around me. Or anyone, really, unless you have such strong meta experience with a player that you can bypass standard ways of hunting. There are people with near unlimited scumranges. Townreading said people under certain circumstances is ok, but those reads should never be 100% strength level in one sense or the other. I think this also applies to Hectic, or Bingle for that matter. Or Amrun herself.

I do think Amrun has done some things that are quite hard to fake as scum though, more so than almi/bingle. In that 1v1 i would side with Amrun, but then again i sided with Amrun even when she was 1v1ing sujimichi.

@Amrun, new question for you: besides Almidia being your highest scumread and having associative equity with me, what kind of info would you expect to learn from either flip on that slot? From post 1108 it seems that a flip there would get you significantly closer to a gamesolve even without a VCA available so far - why?

I think if alimdia is not scum, psyche probably is. And if alimdia IS scum, psyche probably isn’t. It really affects my view of the gamestate.

[Amrun]

This is the correct level of paranoia to have around me. Or anyone, really, unless you have such strong meta experience with a player that you can bypass standard ways of hunting. There are people with near unlimited scumranges. Townreading said people under certain circumstances is ok, but those reads should never be 100% strength level in one sense or the other. I think this also applies to Hectic, or Bingle for that matter. Or Amrun herself.

like call me a skeptic but don't you think it's a little unreasonable that Fark says that Hectic has a near unlimited scumrange when he's played two games as scum and neither of those games were particularly impressive? when both games he played as scum featured a flat tone and a lack of his glowing and engaged personality?

This post seems incongruous followed by a town case on Farkran. I don’t get it.

[Amrun]

although I still do not think that sparing is anything other than terrible for D1 and really dislike that his last meaningful activity was pushing that especially when he earlier called it out as suboptimal

that's just how the game turned out for me.
if i had a scumread that didn't suck i would have pursued it, but i didn't. instead i had a townread that i felt really good about. so i pushed the townread. i don't understand why that was a sticking point for anyone.

I wish to reiterate a random thought that i had mentioned earlier but i didn't gave it enough importance.

Why was sherlock killed over hectic, if hectic is THAT widely townread? Note that i didn't start pushing Hectic before night 1. I was mostly pushing Chara, Replica, and to some extent Psyche. Sherlock was widely townread too, but i think there is another significant difference: sherlock was really strong against spares - he only changed his mind when he noticed conftown!suji - whereas Hectic immediately entered d2 with a 4-spared route advertisement.

If Sherlock had been left alive I would have been pushing to spare him today. It’s not really comparable IMO.

And as for your earlier question, yes I do independently townlean Psyche, as stated previously (though my read has been evolving a lot so I understand).

[Amrun]

pedit: that's also a TLDR. Farkran also mentioned town having no reason to delay their own spare, though i disagree with that point pretty heavily given

scum has even more reason

not

to delay their own spare.

WHY?

FN wasn't outed yet, it would have been optimal play for a spare-based strategy to have the FN use his powers over night and spare him today, in exchange for a 1/8 chance he would have been killed n1. Town!Hectic had all the reasons in the world to end the day quickly, whereas scum!Hectic got to be widely townread and is STILL widely townread - there was no reason to think that would change and scum!Hectic has no fear of being NKed either.

I don’t think most scum assume the tides of being widely town read will continue tbh. I think that’s a faulty premise.

[Amrun]

I don’t know what to think about nacho.

I think his treatment of the Farkran slot is off, as previously noted.

I don’t really hate his chemist read, though I’m not convinced. It’s better than the other scum cases I’ve read today at least.

I like that he came back in producing content. That is excellent.

Nacho, can we compromise on Bingle? What do you think?

[Amrun]

I don’t know what to think about nacho.

I think his treatment of the Farkran slot is off, as previously noted.

Thinking that Farkan is unreasonable or wrong at points isn't mutually exclusive with thinking that he's town as shit. Do you disagree with the case? Do you think Farkan as mafia would play a game that looks like this?

I mean... no, probably not. I townlean him as of present. But it wasn’t that you were calling him wrong that bothered me, it was more like you were calling him disingenuous there.

[Amrun]

Comparing Alimdia's posting here to a recently completed scumgame makes me feel better about the slot, too. There's a lot of throwing out loose speculation and accusations with a lot less emphasis on Alimdia not understanding points or trying to get to the bottom of them.

Posts like Alim's #129, #202, and #211 show a lot more genuine confusion and interest in understanding someone's thinking imo.

This is a stretch. While I agree there was more of an effort here to understand what was going on, I don't think the difference is at all outside the realm of Alimida simply playing better.

Alimdia played an extremely good scum game in Guns N’ Roses, which I recently completed with them. I caught them at the end, but I was mislynched in LyLo, so I mean, clearly didn’t go that well. Lol

[Amrun]

Nacho, can we compromise on Bingle? What do you think?

I'll compromise if you can sell me on someone outside of Bingle and Chemist having a significant chance of being scum. I'll compromise if you can sell me on Chemist having a significant chance of being town.

Why do you think there is scum motivation in defending the lurkers, honestly?

[Amrun]

But it wasn’t that you were calling him wrong that bothered me, it was more like you were calling him disingenuous there.

I wasn't calling him disingenuous in the post you've highlighted but I probably called him disingenuous and called him town anyways. Do you think that ScumCho is entirely unable to track reads and forgot that he called Farkran disingenuous and then called him town anyways or do you feel there should be something I'm scumreading that I'm not or...?

No, originally I was just questioning you to try and sort, but upon reflection, I think the ambiguity actually makes you more likely to be town because I think you would not do that so obviously as scum.

I have not miscounted Farkran as scum here though I do townlean him. I can see Farkran producing 100% of this content as scum. I think as scum he’s be a little more likely to produce something more in line with consensus reads, hence my town lean. I don’t think it’s impossible that he do that as scum, though.

[Amrun]

Why do you think there is scum motivation in defending the lurkers, honestly?

My initial thought was that Chemist as scum wouldn't defend the lurkers because there's no reason for him to stick his neck out for them.

My second thought is that Chemist defended the lurkers so he could sit back and take potshots at the townies pushing the lurkers and then have a place to sit after the lurkers are lynched. I think his tone is as flat and uninspiring as Ben Stein giving the State of the Union Address and I really can't find someone who I'd rather kick out of the playhouse than him.

I’m going to be honest and I hope chemist doesn’t take offense, but this seems like planning more into the future than anything I have seen chemist do up until this point in any game I have ever played with him. He is not a dumb guy but he seems to play super in-the-moment to me.

[Amrun]

Also I agree with Farkran that sparing today is totally different than sparing FN yesterday. Having no flip today makes me disgusted.

I’d probably vote to fight almost anyone that would go through rather than sparing anyone still alive.

[Amrun]

Also I agree with Farkran that sparing today is totally different than sparing FN yesterday. Having no flip today makes me disgusted.

I’d probably vote to fight almost anyone that would go through rather than sparing anyone still alive.

If we fight today we are necessarily going the 1 spare route unless we hit scum.

Any lynch here is going to be on a townread of several people making it pulling teeth to achieve or very low information anyway. No one has strong scumreads.

Any nightkill here is going to be high information.

I would very much like to go the 1 spare route, yes.

I don’t functionally disagree with anything else you’ve said but the idea of sparing any slot left and not knowing how it flipped is like maddening.

[Amrun]

I would rather mislynch by a WIDE margin. At least we know.

[Amrun]

I would rather mislynch by a WIDE margin. At least we know.

the idea that there's no one in this long ass game we can peg as town w near certainty is frankly as unfathomable as the prospect of sujimichi scum was yesterday
i think yet again you're unduly overstating the game uncertainty to the town's detriment

I would very much like to go the 1 spare route, yes.

I don’t functionally disagree with anything else you’ve said but the idea of sparing any slot left and not knowing how it flipped is like maddening.

Your argument is functionally “Let’s play mountainous!”

The whole point of the setup is trading the uncertainty of spares for progressively stronger mechanical information, and spares are objectively more useful early than late. I am 100% opposed to lynching today.

Are you seriously saying that in 50 pages you have 0 reads that you’re comfortable going, “yup, that’s town.”

I’m not saying that. I’m saying a mislynch > misspare, which I don’t think is an arguable point. I would hope we would be comfortable with whatever route we go.

At this point I’m fairly OK with sparing Hectic or Chara, but I’d really rather lynch.

[Amrun]

I see...absolutely nothing in this game that is not a natural extension of Farkran's scumgame of Newbie 1958, which had a giant focus on pushing perceived inconsistencies in progressions, accusatory/loaded scenario assertions, and positing teams.

A lot of that perspective follows into towngames, I don't really feel confident in metaing him over what he's done this game but I'd say he generally seems to take a lot more account of motives and perspectives than he's done here, and seems less inclined to make cases and hardpushes than when he's scum based off of that game and Mini 2106.

There is literally no reason to townread this slot, at all, and at this point I kind of just have to accept that people are going to refuse to read into anything but appearance of effort.

I agree that I think townreads are excessive and this slot should never be spared.

I have like a townlean, maybe, though I keep flopping.

In fact my best solve is bingle/farkran but I feel better about bingle dying today, although his recent posting is better but all mechanical so NAI.

If Farkran suddenly becomes viable I’d try there first.

[Amrun]

Oh wait, i think i misread. "If farkran becomes viable" as opposed to a spare resolution, not to a bingle lynch. Nevermind.

Yes, I still strongly prefer to lynch Bingle.


@Bingle: I’m really fine with mountainous so it’s whatever. One spare doesn’t bother me at all since it was confirmed town. I just don’t care about that very much.

[Amrun]

@Bingle: I’m really fine with mountainous so it’s whatever. One spare doesn’t bother me at all since it was confirmed town. I just don’t care about that very much.

What part of: if we had two more townies than we started the game with we would still be EXPECTED to lose this as mountainous is a difficult concept? Being fine with mountainous is okay, I guess (although maybe don’t sign up for games you don’t want to play ) but actively screwing over the town because you don’t like the main conceit of the game really isn’t.

I think the best way to play the game will change throughout the game and vary with reads and gamestate. I’m not so mathematical about it. Due to current gamestate, we will probably end up sparing and I’ve shared who I’m willing to compromise on there.

This is pretty rich coming from someone who has trash reads and won’t read the game though. Kind of annoying.

[Amrun]

Sad, so sad! I thought we were besties!!

[Amrun]

I would actually prefer a Chara spare to Hectic but Hectic seemed more viable.

[Amrun]

I would also vote for anyone in your lynch pool if it was viable, teplica

[Amrun]

*Replica

[Amrun]

NO STOP

AHHHH

[Amrun]

Will to play decreasing by the post

[Amrun]

HURT: Bingle

I think I’m already there BUT LET’s JUST BE SURE


Chemist plz

[Amrun]

hey all. trying to slowly get back into this before my vacation given the deadline. is Farkran's description of Bingle in the post just above yours accurate, Amrun?

and i should be here until deadline as well, my vacation isn't until after, i believe.

It’s slightly different from my interpretation. I do think the progression is clearly bad but it’s kinda NAI to me because bingle isn’t reading/trying

[Amrun]

HURT: Bingle

I think I’m already there BUT LET’s JUST BE SURE


Chemist plz

what

Vote to hurt Bingle plz

[Amrun]

In fact my best solve is bingle/farkran but I feel better about bingle dying today, although his recent posting is better but all mechanical so NAI.

If Farkran suddenly becomes viable I’d try there first.

recent push on Bungle?

Absolutely yes. I don’t think it makes it more or less likely.

[Amrun]

Farkran: why can scum never spare vote you? also, who exactly are you townreading now? i am currently rereading your posting and it's probably in there, but if you could restate any townreads that would help me understand your partner solves. do you still think me/Hectic is likely?

Psyche: not comfortable sparing Farkran right now.

Amrun: is Bingle's posting still mostly NAI to you? i've come around to the fact he's at least reading minimally enough to say something.

I think his more recent posting is starting to have some meaning to it, but I don’t think him coming in and blindly sheeping Farkran because Farkran was the only one pushing something, then changing his mind when he knew enough about the game to know that Farkran’s reads are pants on head, is indicative either way.

[Amrun]

I’d say somewhere around traitor

so basically it’s a scumread but I don’t trust myself to not be confbiasing it, and no one else have real thoughts on it

I don’t understand why this post doesn’t have a vote in it.

[Amrun]

Anything changed with regards to your Nacho/Farkran reads since then, Chemist?

I did townlean Almidia, but the recent Bingle has made me reconsider that significantly. Bingle's progression that made him go from "i sheep farkran: vote hectic" to "i sheep nacho: heal hectic" to "i am 100% determined i will not lynch today: heal farkran" to "i want to unheal farkran but i'm VLA until the deadline is over and i'm not going to change my vote first"... is bad. Really, really bad. It's like forcing a fake associative on me, because Amrun said he would lynch me if bingle flipped red. Psyche and Replica healing there is also very meh. Especially psyche, who didn't even include Almidia in his fotm sparelist that would lead us to a "so easy victory i don't know how you all can't see it" back in d1. I can buy a Bingle/Psyche team.

He's probably reading too much into the "unvoting heal tag is hard on mobile" thing, but despite our

differences

, I do agree with the rest of the sentiment in this post.

Then vote Bingle.

[Amrun]

also Replica, i replied to your Bingle towncase and wanted to know if you had anything from this game.

pedit: if Farkran is always like this, it's personality. there's no way to know that without poking at it, which is why i wanted Farkran to reply.
and it's

still

an issue if he's town.

I will say in a normal I played with Farkran, he was so deeply pocketed by scum bob he didn’t seem to consider outside opinions on it. We did end up winning though. Meh.

[Amrun]

I’d say somewhere around traitor

so basically it’s a scumread but I don’t trust myself to not be confbiasing it, and no one else have real thoughts on it

I don’t understand why this post doesn’t have a vote in it.

I don’t understand why you don’t get the implications of “I don’t feel good enough about it to commit”

I do get it. But realistically, where do you want the day to go? Is that end realistic? Could you compromise on a Bingle lynch to achieve something worthwhile in the game?

Can I trade you votes, or make a deal, or something? I’m trying to converse.

[Amrun]

also Replica, i replied to your Bingle towncase and wanted to know if you had anything from this game.

pedit: if Farkran is always like this, it's personality. there's no way to know that without poking at it, which is why i wanted Farkran to reply.
and it's

still

an issue if he's town.

I will say in a normal I played with Farkran, he was so deeply pocketed by scum bob he didn’t seem to consider outside opinions on it. We did end up winning though. Meh.

This is unfortunately true. It's not really nice of you to avoid mentioning that i dodged the first mislynch correctly, i pushed 2 out of 3 scum correctly while everyone else was scumreading me/egix, but yeah. I was completely burned and frustrated by that game, and your read of bob was better than mine. I respect you for that.

Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be a comment on the overall correctness of your reads that game! It was specifically about being intractable on a particular point while having a town alignment. So it was a counterpoint, if you will, to Chara’s assertion that it’s scummy from you. I think it’s probably NAI. (It’s also not a value judgment - I have utterly convinced myself of many things, conclusions both right AND wrong, in this game we call mafia.)

[Amrun]

I honestly don’t have great meta with bingle.

I think this is the extent of it: chkflp’s recent 40p game. He started in this game, and came out of the gate strong, but at some point, I got mad at him for coasting there too. He was town. Still quite a different player from the Bingle I’m seeing here I think.

He replaced into GnR at like deadline LyLo and didn’t do much there, as town, but it was a different gamestate and I kind of didn’t expect him to.

Yet when he applies himself he is very clearly capable. I haven’t played with scum bingle. So idk.

[Amrun]

What the actual fuck is that kill

[Amrun]

Sparing been the right avenue for winning but it has absolutely not the right move for my sanity

I am learning this the hard way as I stare down into the abyss, the thought of actually being alive Day 4 with all 3 of Chemist/Nacho/Fark

I willingly voted to remove Sujimichi and Hectic from the game. I did this. I personally chose to do this.

This post killed me.


Yas bitch. That’s what I’ve been saying all game!!

[Amrun]

Uhm... i just realized that Amrun could be scum too, but it would be very short sighted of her to kill Psyche specifically n2 knowing that we were probably going for a lynch by removing 1 sparepusher, when they could instead kill Replica who would have surely shot me - and then remove Psyche n3 - for the same effect with less risk.

I don't get what you're saying here. Assuming I'll keep tunneling you if it's TvT is a solid bet from scum PoV. Psyche was skeptical of Amrun and protective of you.

There would be little reason to keep Psyche over me for Scumrun, or for literally anyone if this is hypothetically TvT.

Yes but from the perspective of me, who is town, it is a bit bananas.

The only thought I have is nacho seemed very hellbent on townreading him in a way that would have been difficult to reverse. Probably Bingle too. Idk. That’s weak.

[Amrun]

his post killed me.


Yas bitch. That’s what I’ve been saying all game!!

Who are the two people you're willing to lynch today?

Bingle, preferably. Maybe you next? Ugh. I need to re-examine second slot because it doesn’t feel right.

Probably Farkran next actually.

[Amrun]

I don’t get how you don’t have a read of me, Replica.

[Amrun]

I have no doubt that Hectic will have improved in many aspects when he plays his next scumgame now that he's got a bunch more town games under his belt. However, the scumgame that he's starting from is one where he was afraid to post as scum, which should incrementally improve as he plays multiple scum games but I wouldn't expect the improvement to be this dramatic.

And, embarrassingly found that Hectic posted a recent scum game that I couldn't find for the life of me here, which I'd suggest you'd read through real quick - still problematic as it includes a jester and Hectic just mostly pretended to be a jester, but still think there's a dramatic difference in Hectic actually scumhunting and trying to figure out the game here and instead just pretending to be a jester and fucking around there. Also feel delaying his spare as scum when Suji asked if he wanted to be hammered would be the sign of scum who is confident and in control (and thus felt they'd be able to cash in on the spare down the road) and don't think the profile from this game demonstrates that's who Hectic is as scum based on how he handled his partner getting lynched Day 1 there.

I thought things like picking at the alimida's inconsistency in their townread on him here was also a surprising play from Hectic if he was scum here, as was prodding Suji why they were willing to spare him - from a scum perspective, you're making people feel awkward for wanting to spare you but it makes a ton of a sense from a town perspective, later translates to him also getting a bit paranoid of Chemist for also feeling that he was jumping on townreading him for no reason.

And there are a bunch of small things, but overall it's simply because the level of content that he's produced and the smaller tiny paranoid thoughts that maybe his read here or there is wrong is a big jump from his completed scum games so far. I can go into some of the smaller things if you'd find it productive but I think the delayed spare + talking about why he thought the delayed spare in thread was a mistake is the tipping point from me to "extremely confident town".

Hmmm. That scum game, even if it's once again a different format, is still kinda bad and it's only from ~1 month ago. What you say about him could make sense. However... now that you mention it, why do you have so much interest and access to Hectic meta, and Hectic only, when in post 122 you say this is the first time you have played with him?

In post 138, you say that metadiving is an important part to your scumhunting strategy, yet if i recall correct you have only metaed Hectic for a large part of this game. You didn't even meta Chemist, currently your highest scumread - correct me if i'm mistaken - or Bingle, the slot who has the most inconsistencies with his own meta as i have been pointing out around d2 end. Hectic is a relatively new player, but he already accumulated dozens of games in his history. Why do you focus that much on towncasing him by meta, and why did you have enough time and patience to look for his scumgames when you didn't do the same for anyone else?

I like this post.


Nacho, I think Bingle could have been spared yesterday if I wasn’t gunning for it so strong. I think thinking I’m partners with Bingle is a little bit silly. I don’t like that thought pattern from you.

[Amrun]

Literally who wasn’t...? I tried to bargain Chemist into a single fight vote on him and couldn’t.

Psyche, cats, Chara I think, Chemist’s read was nebulous. Can’t remember your stance yesterday tbh. I think Farkran also TR that slot? Add me to the mix and it’s a spare easily tbh. Especially without me trying to constantly bring negative attention to the slot.

[Amrun]

I honestly don't know how else i could contribute to this game. If you think that quickspare is town, good luck to you all.

HURT: Chara

If it's not Chara, i'm going for Nacho.

I have already cased enough for a solve, the game is still salvageable if i am correct. I am not up to have another week of discussing why sparing again is immensely wrong though, so if you are not yet willing to listen, call me when you are done. I still want to win though, i'll answer when asked to.

If anyone is interested, i think right now we can find town in Bingle > Amrun = Replica > Chemist, and one out of Chara/Nacho. Hectic quickhammering when we were waiting for Bingle to speak when he had just returned from a shortened V/LA is huge townpoints to bingle imo. And i think Psyche was killed to remove an obstacle to a Chara spare.

[Amrun]

That kill makes no sense, I'm highkey mad it wasn't me, and this means another day of Cats (2019) for everybody.

I'm probably looking to spare Bingle today then lynch in Fark/Chemist/Nacho tomorrow.

[Amrun]

i couldn't find anything in the Guns and Roses game which resemble his thoughts/reads from 287 to 293.
it's a + for the slot and i think Bingle should be off the FIGHT table for today.
but i wouldn't put so much stock into the meta of a single game, that'd i'd want to SPARE him, pal.

[Amrun]

i've been open about my bingle tr for a while

Was voting to spare Bingle and very much wanted to.


Chara’s read was nebulous - didn’t want to fight, didn’t want to spare.

Farkran wanted to fight bingle yesterday but today not so much.


My point is not that he was universally townread, but there were two players actively advocating for his sparing and making towncases, so saying there’s no chance of sparing here regardless of what I say is ?????

[Amrun]

like the hectic post you just quoted includes him saying that he wouldn't spare bingle

Yes but he could have been swayed is my point.


And you’re totally wrong on Psyche. He was voting to spare Bingle and wanted to spare Bingle more than anyone.

[Amrun]

I think it is only because you’re using it as a reason I could be hard bussing my partner from
Day 1. It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t see town motivation for it.

[Amrun]

Like I was actually excited and feeling Town about you until I started overthinking it. Like are you trying to not disqualify obviously bad scum teams? Idgi

[Amrun]

Nacho I really want to wreck with you. I have felt good mostly about your analysis today but I still have a few doubts. You really think I could be scum WITH Bingle?!

[Amrun]

I think it is only because you’re using it as a reason I could be hard bussing my partner from
Day 1. It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t see town motivation for it.

i agree that you-Bingle isn't a particularly likely team. i think that you-Bingle are an unlikely team because you've been at each other's throats all game; I don't think it's because you had the opportunity to spare Bingle yesterday and didn't take it.

Well I didn’t mean that would be the reason, obviously. But you were saying we could be scum together because it wouldn’t matter if I voted to spare or fight him, he wouldn’t be spared, so my read on him was irrelevant (or at least that’s how I interpreted it).

[Amrun]

i'm frustrated that i'm still thinking about farkran at this point. i'm fine leaving maybe one or two people in the CANNOT READ bin but i didn't expect him to be one of them. i think there's a lot to point to farkran being town but then there's also the fact that the man cannot make a scum case or town case on anyone without assuming their alignment or tying it back to the HECTIC IS SCUM theory.

Right. Like, his arguments are circular.

But his frustration seems real.

Welcome to my life!

[Amrun]

I mean his stated reason for TR me is a little cray cray but it hasn’t been terrible as it organically evolved throughout the game IMO.

[Amrun]

I really disagree with Amrun's Alimdia read-they were a townlean for me and going back through the ISO this seems true to me.

Comparing Alimdia's posting here to a recently completed scumgame makes me feel better about the slot, too. There's a lot of throwing out loose speculation and accusations with a lot less emphasis on Alimdia not understanding points or trying to get to the bottom of them.

Posts like Alim's #129, #202, and #211 show a lot more genuine confusion and interest in understanding someone's thinking imo.

I feel a lot better about the slot now. I think Bingle generally isn't framing the argument correctly with the nature of Amrun's read. It might be in reaction to Amrun's #1161 uses hyperbole that can imply it should NEVER be townread, rather than focusing on it not being a great universal tell/it being specific to the player.

I'm solidly off board with either of their approaches.

I don't really understand Replica's confidence in Alimdia based on this meta case.
The first post he calls out is Alimdia voting Sherlock because he doesn't understand why Sherlock voted Hectic early on - how is that "genuine confusion and interest"? how can he claim that's outside of anyone's scumrange?
The other two are Alimdia wanting Sherlock to offer a better reason for Sherlock following JTB's RVS vote which seems like a relatively small thing to harp on - really don't understand why town!Alimdia cares about why Sherlock voted Hectic on the second page of the game to the degree he does, and, again, don't understand how that's out of his scumrange.

Totally. It is not an especially strong town case. I have actually played with alimdia as both alignments.

I think replica is town too.

[Amrun]

replica is probably my only confident townread at the moment.

Same.


Can we just wreck plz

Flip Bingle?

[Amrun]

Even Bingle could be town. I really haven’t felt great about my reads this game which means a townread I have is probably wrong.

[Amrun]

Yassssss

[Amrun]

Literally who wasn’t...? I tried to bargain Chemist into a single fight vote on him and couldn’t.

Psyche, cats, Chara I think, Chemist’s read was nebulous. Can’t remember your stance yesterday tbh. I think Farkran also TR that slot? Add me to the mix and it’s a spare easily tbh. Especially without me trying to constantly bring negative attention to the slot.

i don't TR Bingle.
i can only remember Psyche and Replica having a strong TR there.

Nacho asked about my Amrun read: i like the way she's interacted with Replica in spite of their disagreements re:Bingle and fighting vs. sparing. i also thought her reaction to my and Farkran's argument day 2 seemed very genuine, in how she commented on my having patience and mindmelding (which was not really the emotion but i see how she got there) and in general there hasn't been a lot that's bothered me. i think it's telling when a player with a low word-count like Amrun is easily understandable and followable. i've also agreed with a lot of her takes. not really the Bingle-scum fervor but i don't think her case is bad per se and she's said a few times she isn't 100% confident in the read. actually, Amrun, is there a reason you want to lynch Bingle more than spare Replica?

if she's scum then she's playing really well and loosely. maintaining something like that for the long haul is hard, in my experience.

Farkran: i didn't find Hectic's vote on me suspicious. it looked like paranoia and that's towny.

I was reminded of your Bingle read upon review, sorry.


I’d rather not spare Replica for the same reason he’s frustrated today. Its a demoralizing, demotivating way to play. I will do it if I have to but I don’t think I have to compromise anymore - I think fight supporters finally are in the majority.

[Amrun]

I have felt mindmeldy with Chara at several points which is typically something that happens with town but not guaranteed.

Chemist I liked early game but now meh.

[Amrun]

@Bingle: re: Chara

Perhaps it would be more understandable as a detailed timeline:

1) Chara townreads Hectic because of Hectic content
2) Hectic reaches Spare-1, Chara unvotes and states Hectic is not towny enough
3) Hectic scumreads Chara because of point 2
4) Chara puts back Hectic in its top townreads
5) Hectic unvotes Chara but is still suspicious of it
6) I scumread Replica
7) Chara scumreads me because i scumread Replica
8) Replica townreads Chara because it scumreads me
-d2 happens-
8) Hectic now townreads Chara for no reason at all
9) Hectic now scumreads me because i scumread him
10) Suddenly, Hectic, Chara and Replica formed a townbloc of their own

literally just because of how the players involved are reading themselves

whereas i am pushed as a scumread because i scumread them.

Just no.

I think this list is the thing that struck me the worst. Chara did a good job of breaking it down point by point and I don’t have time to do that myself, but I think any list with reasons like “Chara scumreads me because I scumread Replica” and “Replica townreads Chara because it scumreads me” (demonstrably false) as well as saying people do things for “no reason at all” is not in good faith, and is not trying to determine intent behind actions. This read strongly to me like trying to paint actions in the worst possible light, the opposite of that.

Now, the wall you just did to me, Farkran, I don’t dislike. That reasoning I can understand. I don’t really agree with it, but it’s a train of thought I follow. This quoted post, definitely not. There are smaller less egregious examples littered throughout but this post in particular I had a real problem with.

snip

HURT: Hectic

I’m not going to read ISO’s and I’m sheeping you because Amrun says you logic is shit without disagreeing with any results. When the consensus seems to be “the new guy can solve the game for us!” actually pushing something is probably a town move and I don’t see signs that anyone else has done so.

I do disagree with results.

Hectic is probably town, Chara is very likely town, and Replica is a townlean though not as confident. All of this is readily available information. I don’t know what gave you the impression that I didn’t disagree with Farkran’s results besides you not remotely giving a shit or trying.

@Farkran: I’ll respond to you later. Don’t let me forget!

Thanks, Chara, for having the patience to point out the flaws in Farkran’s thinking FMPOV. I do not have that patience lately.

It’s remarkable how in sync I am with Chara in this moment which is major townpoints in my book.

[Amrun]

What the actual fuck is that kill

@Amrun: Why were you so surprised by the Psyche kill?

I talked about it a bit with Replica.

Partially it’s because I still viewed him as a viable fight even though I wasn’t currently scum reading him, but mostly I just thought his views of the gamestate were very convenient for scum (sparing Bingle, scumreading me). Obviously this holds less water when you aren’t me, with a town role PM, but I still think it was an odd kill.

I did look back and he was more TR than I remembered, though, which makes it a little less odd than I thought when I originally made this post.

[Amrun]

Whatever Bingle’s alignment, I appreciate the effort today.

I don’t hate the content, though I feel he’s about to come in with some huge bogus case on me but we will see.

[Amrun]

HURT: Farkran

I’m conflicted about this, as I am about many things this game.


It would be so easy to criticize Replica for lack of commitment here but the reality is that we are reading the game almost exclusively the same way except in regards to Bingle. That would make me feel very weird if Replica turned out to be scum so I just don’t think they are.

It would be pretty easy to fabricate a read on me and Nacho if they wanted to.

Even if we get a townflip today, we need so desperately to rule out someone as scum, and Farkran is a fantastic slot for most everyone’s PoE I think. And maybe the gods will shine on me and he will flip red.

My TR of Chara is decreasing because his reads don’t seem to be evolving, but at the same time... I agree with basically everything he posts.

This game is so frustrating.

[Amrun]

I don’t think there’s a question he’s working backwards, just whether or not it’s AI.

For some reason, the way Farkran talked about Psyche’s NK as a matter of course continues to ping me every time I read it.

It’s not that he’s wrong - it actually made me reconsider my stance on Psyche night kill. It just seemed like he thought about it a lot.

Idk, I don’t have a good reason why it pings me which is why I didn’t say before, but it’s stuck with me.