Mini 878: Nouns Mafia - Da game is ovah!
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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scumteam = sensfan, boxman, macavitylock
confirm or deny?
Votes Count Uno
Sens Fan:3 (Konowa, elvis_knits, Netopalis)
Parhelic:2 (MacavityLock, Iecerint)
Netopalis:1 (Boxman)
MacavityLock:1 (StrangerCoug)
mathcam:1 (Seol)
Seol:1 (SensFan)
Not Voting:(mathcam, Parhelic, Percy)
Deadline:Friday November 27th, 12:00 PM ESTTalk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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The boxman wagon does not look random to me. It looks to be based on a weak scumtell. I don't know how others see boxman's post 31, but to me it's boxman posting without content, posting without trying to advance the game or scum hunt, and possibly the worst sin of all -- making my sensfan bandwagon look silly!
The only problem I have with sensfan voting boxman is that it makes the rival bandwagon as big as his own, which switched momentum to someone else.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I would expect you to vote boxman if you were town thinking boxman is scum or if you were scum wanting a rival bandwagon to get bigger. I know it could go either way... and I'm not sure which.SensFan wrote:
First of all, I didn't know the count that well. I know I can't prove it, but the point is moot anyways, for the following reason: what else would you expect me to do? Not vote someone early in the game because I have more votes than them?elvis_knits wrote:The only problem I have with sensfan voting boxman is that it makes the rival bandwagon as big as his own, which switched momentum to someone else.
However, don't try to tell me you didn't know what you were doing. There was a vote count at the top of the page. I assume you can count to three seeing as all the boxman votes were on the same page.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Well, I know why he doesn't like you, that's obvious. I actually meant to ask seol why he is connecting you to me. I can see him connecting you to boxman since you poo-pooed his boxman wagon. But why you and me are together, or why boxman and me are together, not sure why.Netopalis wrote:He doesn't like the fact that I'm going against the common practice of pressure and reaction votes, nor the fact that I suggested setup discussion as a potentially better method of early scumhunting.
FTR, I agree that setup speculation is bad and that netopalis is sort of advocating information over analysis. Asking questions = good. But I favor using your vote whenever possible. And wagoning early and often.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Why do you think it wasn't genuine?Seol wrote:
Your attack on Sensfan didn't ring true at all, and this in particular:elvis_knits wrote:
Well, I know why he doesn't like you, that's obvious. I actually meant to ask seol why he is connecting you to me. I can see him connecting you to boxman since you poo-pooed his boxman wagon. But why you and me are together, or why boxman and me are together, not sure why.Netopalis wrote:He doesn't like the fact that I'm going against the common practice of pressure and reaction votes, nor the fact that I suggested setup discussion as a potentially better method of early scumhunting.
felt unreasonably aggressive. Basically, it came across to me as an engineered argument; finding a reason to attack as opposed to genuine suspicion.However, don't try to tell me you didn't know what you were doing. There was a vote count at the top of the page. I assume you can count to three seeing as all the boxman votes were on the same page.
My suggestions were serious. Yours weren't?seol wrote: I also wanted to see how you reacted to mimicking your scum-team suggestion postings. The unexpected response: you took it seriously.
How do you measure "reasonable aggression?" Of course I'm going to be more aggressive to someone that I am voting and think might be scum.seol wrote: PPE: This:
also has that quality of feeling unreasonably aggressive; attacking for the sake of attacking, and notably different in tone to how you're talking to anyone else.So are you going to explain your vote or are you just going to hide behind seol?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I didn't mean weak in the sense that it doesn't matter. I think it's entirely appropriate to go after weak tells in the beginning of the game. I didn't mean it as a criticism, only as a means of measurement. The second sentence was to show you what exactly about the post I thought was a weak scum tell. Again, weak doesn't mean "bad" but rather just not strong.StrangerCoug wrote:
You seemed to just go with the flow. You still had a neutral read afterward, but again, I'm not all for the bandwagon stage.SensFan wrote:SC, why are you assuming my vote isn't serious?
I love how you call a scumtell weak and then make two points against him supporting the tell.elvis_knits wrote:The boxman wagon does not look random to me. It looks to be based on a weak scumtell. I don't know how others see boxman's post 31, but to me it's boxman posting without content, posting without trying to advance the game or scum hunt, and possibly the worst sin of all -- making my sensfan bandwagon look silly!
FoS: elvis_knitsTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I always pay attention to the vote count. And I think that most players pay attention to the votes that happen on the same page as theirs, just because of proximity. Was I picking on something that might not be a big deal? Maybe. Was I pressuring sensfan to get his reaction? Absolutely.Seol wrote:
Because I don't think most people pay that much attention to the vote count at this stage in the game: you're coming across as if it was irresponsible of Sensfan not to know the precise votecount, and furthermore as if he had heightened responsibility for it because he was an alternative wagon. Particularly the use of the phrase "you had to know what you were doing" is highly accusative on something which isn't a reasonable expectation of a typical player at this point.elvis_knits wrote:
Why do you think it wasn't genuine?Seol wrote:
Your attack on Sensfan didn't ring true at all, and this in particular:elvis_knits wrote:
Well, I know why he doesn't like you, that's obvious. I actually meant to ask seol why he is connecting you to me. I can see him connecting you to boxman since you poo-pooed his boxman wagon. But why you and me are together, or why boxman and me are together, not sure why.Netopalis wrote:He doesn't like the fact that I'm going against the common practice of pressure and reaction votes, nor the fact that I suggested setup discussion as a potentially better method of early scumhunting.
felt unreasonably aggressive. Basically, it came across to me as an engineered argument; finding a reason to attack as opposed to genuine suspicion.However, don't try to tell me you didn't know what you were doing. There was a vote count at the top of the page. I assume you can count to three seeing as all the boxman votes were on the same page.
I don't know how much weight I meant. It was meant to get things going, but I was also serious. Not like a heartattack, but taking my best guess from what was available at the time.seol wrote:
Well, that depends what you mean by serious. It was reasoned, but not intended to carry much weight.elvis_knits wrote:
My suggestions were serious. Yours weren't?seol wrote:I also wanted to see how you reacted to mimicking your scum-team suggestion postings. The unexpected response: you took it seriously.
Did you have reasoning behind yours? If so, please elaborate.
How much weight did you intend them to carry?
My reasoning was this:
I saw:
netoplais votes sensfan.
boxman votes netopalis.(Sometimes a scum "random" votes the player who is voting their buddy. So I decide to vote sensfan see if I can tell anything more about the relationship there.)
I vote sensfan, call for a bandwagon.
MacavityLock ignores my bandwagon and puts a second vote on parh. (So he's obviously looking to put multiple votes on someone, looking to pressure, but not on sensfan).
So that is where I got sensfan, boxman, ML. I didn't think I was necessarily right, obviously it's highly speculative and the explanation could be very innocent, but I thought it was a possible relationship and worth pressuring to get more info. Atleast to get people talking and what not.
Well when people were commenting on sensfan's vote, he chose not to explain it and to ask SC "why don't you think me vote was serious?" Which is a deflection. I didn't like that. Then you came in here and were having your discussion with netopalis and sensfan was falling by the wayside, so in that way, he was getting away with not explaining his vote. Even now when I asked him so obnoxiously he refused to give me his reasoning. I don't know why he's doing that. I don't understand the big deal.Seol wrote:
I don'telvis_knits wrote:
How do you measure "reasonable aggression?" Of course I'm going to be more aggressive to someone that I am voting and think might be scum.seol wrote:PPE: This:
also has that quality of feeling unreasonably aggressive; attacking for the sake of attacking, and notably different in tone to how you're talking to anyone else.So are you going to explain your vote or are you just going to hide behind seol?measureit, that was the impression I took. It seems odd to be so accusative the first time you asked Sensfan for his reasoning, he'd only been asked once up to that point byanyone, and your previous exchange had an entirely different subject - so it's not unreasonable for Sensfan to think that's what you were interested in. I also don't get where the "hide behind Seol" comment comes from.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I would vote boxman, but I didn't feel like I was done with sensfan so I didn't want to divide my efforts.mathcam wrote:
I'm pretty happy with just "a weak scumtell" for a first-couple-of-pages bandwagon. And as someone else pointed out, you seem to give pretty good reasons to support the wagon anyway. I think I'm missing your point here -- who was arguing that it was entirely random? If Sens weren't around as a second option, would you be for or against the wagon?elvis_knits wrote:The boxman wagon does not look random to me. It looks to be based on a weak scumtell. I don't know how others see boxman's post 31, but to me it's boxman posting without content, posting without trying to advance the game or scum hunt, and possibly the worst sin of all -- making my sensfan bandwagon look silly!
Only that scum would definitely want the rival bandwagon to gain momentum and town might not, depending if they thought boxman was scummy or not. It just seemed like senfan jumped on the chance to vote boxman.mathcam wrote:
I'm confused as to why you would have a problem with this. This seems like a pretty reasonable thing for Sens to do.elvis wrote: The only problem I have with sensfan voting boxman is that it makes the rival bandwagon as big as his own, which switched momentum to someone else.
I didn't mean to. I actually think it has merit. I can understand how it might look like this though since I didn't join the boxman wagon, and since I think I was misunderstood when I said it was a "weak scum tell." Or maybe I used it wrong. I guess weak has too much of a bad connotation. But I just meant it as a relative measurement term and not that there were better scum tells out there at that point.mathcam wrote:
Because you also poo-pooed the boxman wagon?elvis wrote: Well, I know why he doesn't like you, that's obvious. I actually meant to ask seol why he is connecting you to me. I can see him connecting you to boxman since you poo-pooed his boxman wagon. But why you and me are together, or why boxman and me are together, not sure why.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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See above. I didn't mean weak=bad.StrangerCoug wrote:
I correctly interpreted elvis_knits as not believing that the Boxman wagon was random. I'm attacking her for supporting the attack for a scumtell she says is weak, which made little sense to me.mathcam wrote:
I thought this is at first, too -- Though I'd like to hear what elvis has to say about this, I think this is a misinterpretation. I think she's emphasizing that it's not aSC wrote:I love how you call a scumtell weak and then make two points against him supporting the tell.randomwagonbecausethere's a scumtell that's prompting it (even if that scumtell is pretty weak).
I agree it can be a good tell, but I see a lot of newer players do it as town. And boxman doesn't seem like a vet, so that makes it less sure for me. You could be completely right though.sc wrote:I actually think refusing to partake in discussion is pretty strong as it's anti-information.
What do you think about sensfan not explaining his boxman vote? I think that's anti-informational.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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There's been two wagons of three votes. What is odd about that?SensFan wrote:On-topic, I find it somewhat wierd how quickly small wagons are moving about through the Town. I'm not sure what it means, but its odd.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Generally, I ask for explanation out of curiosity and to keep the conversation going so I can better judge allignment. I have learned recently that just accepting things can be bad (/invitational 4 i let people get away with softclaims and accepted breadcrumbs too often). This is not the same thing, but I just think that asking for explanation is good. Do you disagree? Why?
Also, it's not so much that I mind things not being explained right away every moment. Sometimes people don't for whatever reason (time, wanting to see reactions, I do it too).But I mind people not explaining when asked.Seems like bad faith. So when I saw sensfan fail to explain his vote and instead ask a question of SC, I felt he was deflecting the question. And I asked you for explanation so that I could address any concerns you have.
So I only get a bug up my ass when requests are denied.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I can see how it came off obnoxious. I was poking for information.Seol wrote:
I think there's very little in the way of behaviour that is essentially good or bad: it's not what you do, it's how you do it. I didn't object to the questions you were asking Sensfan, I was objecting toelvis_knits wrote:This is not the same thing, but I just think that asking for explanation is good. Do you disagree? Why?howyou asked them.
Unless it's something that is going to hurt the town, I expect people to explain. I mean, they don't have to, but I will be more suspicious of them if they don't. And I don't need a report of every minute thought they have, but just a general kind of thing. Like a sentence will usually do. I really don't think I'm as psycho about this as you think I am.seol wrote:
So you believe that everyone has aelvis_knits wrote:Also, it's not so much that I mind things not being explained right away every moment. Sometimes people don't for whatever reason (time, wanting to see reactions, I do it too).But I mind people not explaining when asked.Seems like bad faith.responsibilityto explain their entire thought process on demand? I guess that's something we disagree on, then.
Now to look at current events...Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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unvote; vote boxman
My current number two is Iecerint because of his behavior toward boxman/netopalis. He seems to vehemently support boxman wagon, yet never voted boxman, and instead votes/wagons netopalis for thinking the boxman wagon is too fast (or whatever netopalis is saying, too many votes too soon). Makes me question how genuinely he supports the boxman wagon. If he supports the boxman wagon, creating rival wagon is not really productive.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I think you support boxman wagon because you're voting netoplais for wanting the wagon to slow. You also helpfully pointed out to people that boxman HAS been online, which is a point against him. Unless you meant it another way? If I misunderstand how you feel about boxman, please tell me your feelings on boxman.
As for your ISO5 post, it's here:
I think I've already answered all this in posts to others. I was confused why you asked these same things again after I had explained. Did you not read my posts?Iecerint wrote:ML -- your italicized bit is my read of the elvis quote I was asking about. Here's said quote:
At the time, I was assuming that elvis wouldn't criticize the boxman wagon unless she thought he was town. If she thought that both BM and SF were likely scum, her indignation above wouldn't make much sense. So I assumed she thought/was leaning that BM was town and SF was scum.elvis_knits wrote:The boxman wagon does not look random to me. It looks to be based on a weak scumtell. I don't know how others see boxman's post 31, but to me it's boxman posting without content, posting without trying to advance the game or scum hunt, and possibly the worst sin of all -- making my sensfan bandwagon look silly!
The last sentence of the quote indicates that there are three things BM has done that elvis believes are worthly of suspicion -- low content, low scumhunting, and trivializing her SF bandwagon. (How BM is responsible for trivializing said wagon is anyone's guess, but that's how the quote reads to me.) The last of these transgressions make little sense, because it's not clear why a town player would actively discredit a wagon on another player, but that's what elvis seems to be claiming.
It looked like SC had already called her out on this, but elvis's hypothetical scumtell made such little sense that I wanted to get clarification from her.
elvis wrote: I didn't mean weak in the sense that it doesn't matter. I think it's entirely appropriate to go after weak tells in the beginning of the game. I didn't mean it as a criticism, only as a means of measurement. The second sentence was to show you what exactly about the post I thought was a weak scum tell. Again, weak doesn't mean "bad" but rather just not strong.
The only thing I can think of that isn't totally addressed is how I thought boxman trivialized my sensfan wagon. The way he did that is by saying there was nothing going on in the thread. So he's saying my sensfan wagon is inconsequential, not exciting, etc.elvis wrote: I didn't mean to [poo-poo boxman wagon]. I actually think it has merit. I can understand how it might look like this though since I didn't join the boxman wagon, and since I think I was misunderstood when I said it was a "weak scum tell." Or maybe I used it wrong. I guess weak has too much of a bad connotation. But I just meant it as a relative measurement term and not that there were better scum tells out there at that point.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I think you're splitting hairs with your reaction to my use of "vehement", but I guess this is "nouns" mafia.Iecerint wrote:There's a difference between me "supporting" the wagon and me "vehemently supporting" the wagon. The former I understand someone thinking, but the latter I do not. Elvis claimed the latter, which is relevant because there's no reason for a town player to overestimate another player's support for a wagon. I wanted to know why she did so.
IMO the neto wagon is a reaction to him wanting the boxman wagon to slow. So I would only expect you to wagon neto if you like the boxman wagon a lot and don't want to see it slowed.
Possibly. It's an option. It would imply they are both scum. Much in the same way that boxman voting netopalis, after netopalis voted sensfan, was possibly boxman protecting sensfan.iecerint wrote:EBWOP: Oh, follow-up on the elvis business. elvis, did you think that BM was intentionally trivializing your SF wagon, or just that that was a consequence of his post?
(Also every time you write "BM" I think battlemage and it confuses me!)Talk nerdy to me.
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I think neto is being entirely consistent in the way he thinks we should be playing this game. He doesn't like random bandwagons and he seems to want to be super careful. On a personal level I disagree with him, but I don't know that he has any ulterior motive for what he's saying. If you think so, I think it's good to keep questioning/pressuring him. But it's not significant to me on it's own.
I mean, I don't plan on following neto's advice and keeping boxman at 2 votes until he is prodded. That seems like a pretty arbitrary plan that will only slow the game down. But I'm also not going to divide my effort and go after neto when his issues could totally be playstyle, not when I still think boxman is scummy and needs pressuring.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Neto, please give some thoughts on other players... what you have seen as scummy or questionable so far in the game?
It will help me judge your allignment and see if this is just a playstyle thing of yours or not. I want to hear you talk about what you DO think is scummy instead of just preaching caution.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I liked Neto's long analysis post. Probably partially because his suspicions are similar to my own. I was already thinking I didn't like how ML posted and unvoted without revoting. I find that counterproductive at this stage. (Haven't some other people done that too? Percy? Parh?)
I find some of sensfan's arguments bad. The OMGUS thing is wrong, since neto was voting him in the first game post after confirms. Sort of hard to argue that's OMGUS!
Also I don't like how sens compares himself to seol in post 151. I don't see them as that similar. And I don't like sens seeming angry that seol is not seen as scummy and he is. I don't know if I'm explaining it right. If people have questions I will take another try at it later.
RE: Boxman...sens in 151 wrote:Also, I love how Seol gets a free pass on your list, and I get burried, simply because you claim he backs his opinions up with reasoning, and I don't. That's laughable both because witholding reasoning isn't scummy, and I'm not doing it that much.
I don't believe or disbelieve him at this point. I need to see him provide some analysis and content, and like make a real vote before I decide whether or not to unvote him.
Mathcam's point that a scum wouldn't forget about the game. I think he's probably right. But I don't know that boxman really did forget about the game. So I have to see more from him before I make a decision about him.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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ML, I thought that might be the reason but I didn't want to speak for you, or excuse it without seeing what you had to say. I'm fine with it now.
@sensfan... yes, serious. I mean, he's been voting you the entire game, so I don't think it's a reaction to you suspecting/voting him.
Whether or not it's odd for a random vote to turn into a serious vote... I don't know, I've been wondering what I think of that.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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You could be right. I have a hard time knowing who neto really suspected until his analysis post, so I don't really know when he started suspecting you. Do you think there is a definite turning point where he started suspecting you as a result of you suspecting him? I'd like to know where you thought his language changed or whatever you can point to.SensFan wrote:Elvis, I think you're looking too much into the literal definition of OMGUS, rather than the 'spirit of the term', if you will. He placed a random vote on me for my avatar, and only when I pressured him did he start suspecting me.
I'm trying not to tunnel on you, but I realize I may be doing that. So I'm open to discussion.Talk nerdy to me.
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How could it hurt, sensfan?SensFan wrote:
Highly scummy reactions like yours.Netopalis wrote:Then what is the value of such a vote, Iec?
You can also stop trying to get me to explain that Boxman vote. I will not be doing it in this game, period. We are well past the time when explaining it would help anything.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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YOU WERE SCUM IN THAT GAME!!!!SensFan wrote:
He doesn't really mention suspecting me at all until after my series of questions towards him, which turned into suspicions.elvis_knits wrote:
You could be right. I have a hard time knowing who neto really suspected until his analysis post, so I don't really know when he started suspecting you. Do you think there is a definite turning point where he started suspecting you as a result of you suspecting him? I'd like to know where you thought his language changed or whatever you can point to.SensFan wrote:Elvis, I think you're looking too much into the literal definition of OMGUS, rather than the 'spirit of the term', if you will. He placed a random vote on me for my avatar, and only when I pressured him did he start suspecting me.
I'm trying not to tunnel on you, but I realize I may be doing that. So I'm open to discussion.
As for tunnelling on me, while I don't think you're at that point yet, it's worth noting that in the only game I remember playing with you (Twilight Mafia, which you replaced in to), I seem to recall you being all over me for the entirety of my time in that game, as well. There may be a playstyle clash going on here, or something.
Actually, I resent you replacing out of that game when I correctly pegged you as scum. I guess it had nothing to do with me suspecting you but you leaving the game led to your replacement making a slip that I considered a towntell, which totally screwed me up.
I realize I may have a bit of bad blood about that, so I'm trying to temper that. I don't want to make a mistake in this game just because of my feelings there. So I am purposely trying to give you a fair shake at this point, and pursue others while I keep an eye on you. I would rather replace out of the game than let feelings from something else influence me, but I don't think it's that bad that I need to take myself out of the game.
Also, I remember a newbie game where you beat me when you were scum. You were actually super-nice to me, and pretty different that you were in twilight or this game. Have you become MUCH more confrontational as a player? Because you were pretty friendly to everyone in the newbie game but that was a long time ago. And as I said, I saw you be confrontational scum in twlight.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I find his confrontational attitude similar. I was just looking back at the game and like I think asked him for a scum list and he flat out told me he would never do it and nobody else should either. Basically I should suck it. Which is similar to him being like "I won't ever tell you why I voted boxman. Period." Makes me want to stick my tongue out at him!Iecerint wrote:SF was scummy in Twilight, but I'm not getting the same vibe now as I got from my readthrough back then. Then again, SF isn't advocating a policy lynch on zwet D1 this time.
It's true he's not trying to policy lynch zwet or anyone else this game though. In twilight I think he was rather lazy and not scum hunting, angrily trying to beat us into policy lynching zwet (which became me!). It was his failure to scum hunt that really got me got me going that game. And... to be fair, I think he is scum hunting this game.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I disagree sens.
Scum already know who isn't suspected. I find the information helpful both in building a consensus and getting discussion going. Asking people why they put a person in neutral or town or scum, and seeing how their mind works. I also think it makes it harder for scum when they have to explain their actions, and when they are held accountable.
I know some people genuinely think as you do, that scum lists are anti-town, so I don't find it necessarily scummy. But I disagree with you.
Vote Count Neuf
Netopalis:4 (Konowa, SensFan, Iecerint, Boxman)
Boxman:3 (elvis_knits, Seol, StrangerCoug)
Sens Fan:2 (mathcam, Netopalis)
Not Voting:(MacavityLock, Parhelic, Percy)
Deadline:Friday November 27th, 12:00 PM EST
Prodding Parhelic.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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IMO neto's reaction gets scummy mostly if boxman is scum.
If boxman is town, a scumNeto would probably not be trying to slow the wagon. I mean, maybe to earn town cred, or maybe because he thinks he would say that as town. But most of the time, if neto is scum and boxman is town, neto is not going to try to slow the boxman wagon. Right? I think so.
So, this fact, coupled with boxman appearing but not voting/being useful, makes me think boxman is the way to go at this point.
If boxman can come back here and scum hunt and surprise me, that would be great and I will reevaluate, but the current state is that boxman should go first. Then we see about Neto.
Sens I suspect disagrees. To him and others... what do you think the scum motivation would be to act like Neto if boxman is town?Talk nerdy to me.
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I'd say it speaks to Neto being scum with boxman but not sensfan.Konowa wrote:elvis what do you make of Net reacting to an early third vote on Boxman, but not an early third vote on Sens?Talk nerdy to me.
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I still think Neto's allignment is hugely tied to boxman's. Afterall, his reaction to the wagon is the main point against him.
But if boxman is town, I worry less about Netopalis.
I think boxman is scum since he came back to the game and didn't realy do anything or change his vote. (And if so, Neto very potential buddy).
But if Boxman is town, Neto was probably just some townie preaching caution.
I just think lynching neto first is backwards.Talk nerdy to me.
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I'm open to hearing why. I asked why a scum Neto would slow a town boxman wagon. Tell me your thoughts.SensFan wrote:What if I think Neto is scummy regardless of Boxman's alignment?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Well, reading last couple posts I don't like some of the stuff Neto is saying. Boxman wagon wasn't random. Sensfan isn't illogical, or necessarily tunnelling.
If Neto thinks those things are true, I need more explanation, becuase I don't think they are.Talk nerdy to me.
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I think Neto is wrong and possibly scummy with the recent accusations against sensfan. I think it's a little of a stretch to say his boxman vote was illogical because he didn't explain it. But I don't think he quoted out of context in 232 either. I think that the part he chopped really doesn't change much.
I think the argument is getting into minutae at this point. The biggest fact remains that Neto wanted to slow the wagon on boxman. That is the most important thing in my mind, and some of the rest could possibly be squabbling, so I don't want to get too riled up about it.
Boxman still hasn't done anything, reinforcing his scumminess. Neto hasn't mentioned this. (THAT is significant to me. He's not saying, "hey guys, maybe you were right about boxman, we're ten pages into the game and he still asn't done anything.")
I'm still voting boxman, and I will be until I see something good from him.
Iecerint is coming off to me as being sensfan jr. Konowa is also saying similar things but he seems original. Iecerint is like explaining what sensfan meant, and stuff like that. I find it sort of weird!Talk nerdy to me.
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I read that differently. I will reserve my interpretation of it until Neto clarifies, though, just in case.StrangerCoug wrote:
This is the awful post I speak of as it implies support for lynching village idiots. Do that and scum has an easy win.Netopalis wrote:Well, a townie who always shows up as scummy isn't much help, are they? They just get in the way....
Neto... what did you mean?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I believe town should care more about lynching scum than keeping themselves alive. I'm always more willing to die as town.
BUT
I also think it is a townie's job to not make themselves an easy lynch. That decreases the chance of townies voting for you and increases the chances of scum outting themselves when making their reasons to vote you.
I don't think it's so horrible for a townie to want to save themselves and not look like scum. It should be their primary objective, but I think it's a part of playing this game.
Whether or not Neto is TOO worried about looking like scum... maybe. I don't know. I can still see this point (like a lot of the ones about Neto) as going either way. Boxman still needs to die first.Talk nerdy to me.
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Percy posting gave me good vibrations. I recognize a similar mindset/philosophy there, which obviously makes me like him. He hit on some things that I had already thought, but other people didn't seem to understand.
Example: Iecerint with his tirade over my use of the word "vehement." (Watch him get upset about tirade next! I just like using my vocab words, okay?!) Me possibly misstating/misunderstanding thedegreeto which he supports the boxman wagon... should not be that big a deal. I explained why I thought that. There was no need to get his panties in such a bunch. Perhaps he was so bothered by it because I was also pointing out how he never voted boxman but skipped right to netopalis? Hmmm?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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So you think that if BM is a mislynch that scum could set you up for a mislynch by making it seem like you supported the wagon that you never voted on???Iecerint wrote:Suppose that you were scum who knew that BM is town. By overestimating the degree to which other players were pushing for a BM lynch, you could be setting-up for a mislynch D2.
Until BM came back and disappeared again, BM wasn't that scummy. Neto was odd at best.
What.
I think you may misunderstand the implications of my statements. If BM is scum, I think that you look very suspicious for supporting his wagon while you voted Neto. If BM is not scum, it doesn't mean much to me.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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That claim does not seem right...
I think I support a Neto lynch now. Also since he's either vanilla or scum. And I think the claim might be fake at this point.
Seol, what is BWCS?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I'm always a fan of lynching scummy-looking vanilla claims. Even if you're wrong (meaning the person really is town) I think it helps in the long run.
I was really riding the fence for a while there on Neto, but I think the claim is fake. I don't know how to saywhywithout potentially giving something away.
If anyone thinks the claim is good, I want them to say so. They don't have to say why. Actually, saying why may be bad.
unvote; vote netopalis
L-1Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Point taken. I will say no more on the subject.Seol wrote:
This is why I was saying it's a bad idea to discuss claims, unless there's a really compelling reason. People always underestimate the collateral damage of getting this sort of conversation in the open.elvis_knits wrote:I was really riding the fence for a while there on Neto, but I think the claim is fake. I don't know how to saywhywithout potentially giving something away.
If anyone thinks the claim is good, I want them to say so. They don't have to say why. Actually, saying why may be bad.
I don't think that discussing our opinions of the claim,even while withholding reasoning, is a good idea. Discussing them whilst citing reasoning is worse.Talk nerdy to me.
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All those who resisted boxman wagon and pushed Neto need sto die ASAP.
I am glad sensfan is gone because he would have been a prime suspect. That leaves us with Iecerint, who claimed support for boxman wagon, but never voted him and hid behind sensfan pushing netopalis all day.
vote: iecerintTalk nerdy to me.
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Moreover, this post stinks to high heaven to me.StrangerCoug wrote:We're now split right down the middle with everyone voting. I'm happy with either lynch (and Net's claim is hard to wrap my head around), but Boxman or whoever's replacing him needs to get the heck in here and post something worthwhile.
Me and others thought there was something wrong with the claim and so wanted Net dead ASAP, so we could hopefully lynch scum and also to limit the amount of role info that got discussed.
Why did you want to extend the day by waiting for the Boxman replacement?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Okay, I did some fun color-coding of the end of day votecount, with the allignments we know colored, and my guesses at the other allignments.
From this, I think that there is probably another scum on the Neto wagon. I tend to think it is one of the early pushers, and not one of the ones who went on late after the claim, since I see that as pro-town. So I lean more town on Seol, although he was absent for a while yesterday so I don't have a complete read on him. I am also just a bit suspicious of him since I know he is a good player, so I don't want to write him off completely, but I tentatively put him at town.DraketheFake wrote:7Netopalis(town):(mathcam (town), elvis_knits (town), Seol(town?), MacavityLock(?),SensFan(town),Iecerint(scum?),Boxman(scum))
3 (StrangerCoug(scum?), Konowa(?),Boxman(scum):Netopalis(town)
Iecerint(scum?):1 (Percy(town?))
Not Voting:(big_kahunia(?))
So, Iecerint seems like the most obvious scum from the NEt wagon since he pushed the wagon with sensfan all day and never voted boxman.
ML is also a possble scum though. Neto was the only person ML voted all day after his random vote. I played with ML recently in Second String Muppets Mini. We were scum there and he kept his vote on one person the whole first day before getting vigged at night. I'm thinking this might be a scumtell for him, picking one suspect and sticking with it.
StrangerCoug is less cut-and-dry. Looking at his ISO, he voted Boxman early and kept his vote there for a while. This is good. But when he switched his vote to NEtopalis, he gave the most horrible reason in the universe "Neto is trying too hard to look town." He is then pushed back to voting Boxman when Boxman never shows up. Can't tell anything from that, really. Reluctance to vote Netopalis at the end of yesterday has me thinking he just wanted to keep off the mislynch, but that's just my read. I am interested to hear his response to my previous posts.
Konowa spent a good deal of yesterday pressuring Netopalis, but as I said yesterday, he seemed to be having original thoughts, like he was thinking for himself, and was just, you know... wrong. This is sort of just a gut read of him.
Percy wasn't around too much yeserday, so I can't be suresure of my read until I see more from him. But what he did post was very in line with my thinking, and I agreed very much with his points, and the things he was picking up on about Iecerint. I feel strongly that he is town, and the low-level mumbling from strangercoug that Percy might be scum is of concern to me.
bigkahunia, need to see more from. I don't remember liking him very much, but I need more.
Interesting note: ML picked to lurkerrandomvote parhelic (bigkahunia replaced) instead of mathcam. This suggested a preference for parh/bigkahunia, and maybe a possible buddy in mathcam. Since mathcam is town, we can throw that one out, and I would suspect that if one of them is scum, the other is not their buddy. Not a sure thing, but something that is probably true, barring anything serious developing.
Simply:
Scum:
Iecerint
StrangerCoug
Neutral:
MacavityLock(lean scum)
bigkahunia
Konowa(lean town)
Town:
elvis
Seol
PercyTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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ML, okay, I'm glad you linked to those games. Voting Net all day still stands as a point against you since he was town, but the meta thing now doesn't matter to me. Also, you get pro points for noticing SC's scumminess, which I agree with.
I was rereading konowa and I am not as sure of my town-gut read on him.
I think this is sort of hypocritical because I think he is showing a weak support for the boxman wagon while voting netopalis (for showing support for the boxman wagon without voting him).Konowa wrote:
This really feels like you are trying to show support for the Boxman wagon without having to place a vote on him. Why are you so concerned Boxman has three votes at this point?Netopalis, post 94 wrote: Alright...I can see the point about going with minimal tells on day one. That being said, I really think we need to hear from Boxman a bit more before continuing - he's at 3 votes and we're not even past page 4.
unvote;
vote Netopalis
Boxman needs to start talking. As does Parhelic.
Something seems very wrong about that.
And stuff like this:
My original contention was that people cannot attack Net for wanting to slow the boxman wagon unless they know boxman is scum. If boxman were town, it would all be null. So people that attacked Net based on his treatment on boxman, are highly suspicious to me.Konowa wrote:Netopalis, you have been trying to slow down the Boxman wagon since it took off.
I think that Konowa's suspicions of Net are very dependent on boxman, and so wanting net dead first is very backwards.
Now I would say that my top scummy suspects are:
Iecerint
StrangerCoug
KonowaTalk nerdy to me.
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I disagree. The whole premise was backwards and screwed up. The central problem with Net was wanting to slow the boxman wagon. If boxman was town and neto was scum, he wouldn't have wanted to do that. I could see them as scum together or I could see boxscum and netotown. boxtown and netscum was not possible.Iecerint wrote:All I can refer you to is the views I expressed D1 about the possibility that Neto could be scum without BM, which I maintain were justified.
Admit you were wrong and then we'll talk.Talk nerdy to me.
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I fail to see how that was such a big deal. IMO, most of the points against Neto were things that people blew out of proportion and presented as cardinal sins. The setup speculation thing is a classic example.
He didn't come into this game and say "mass roleclaim nao!"
Look at page 3, he says he's not such a fan of early wagons, seol asks him what he'd rather do and he says:
Seol questions further, asking if it's a good idea to setup speculate:Neto wrote:Generally, I find that posing questions and discussions like this about theme and method are more effective...[than random bandwagons]
Neto wrote:Not always. That being said, I could definitely see it being a problem in this specific one....Net wrote:He doesn't like the fact that I'm going against the common practice of pressure and reaction votes, nor the fact that I suggested setup discussion as a potentially better method of early scumhunting.
Basically he said he doesn't like early bandwagons and gave example of setup speculation as an alternative. He didn't try to actually do it, or ask anyone to roleclaim. He even admits it might be bad in this particular game and then retracts his statement, saying he just meant it as a general example of something we could do besides bandwagon.Net wrote:Fair enough, I retract the statement. I only intended it as a general replacement anyway.
He was not really advocating we setup speculate. Seol questioned him about it and he was forced to keep talking about it. Then you and sensfan hammered on about it for ages and blew it into this huge deal when never needed to be.
Do I think he was wrong to suggest it? Yes. Do I disagree with his gameplay philosophy? Yes.
But it was not the huge deal you are making it out to be.Talk nerdy to me.
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Iecerint --
Tell me what arguments about SC you agree with.
I need this in your own words.
And who else do you think is scummy?
Vote Count Un
StrangerCoug:2 (Iecerint, MacavityLock)
MacavityLock:1 (Seol)
Iecerint:1 (elvis_knits)
Not Voting:(big_kahunia, Konowa, Percy, StrangerCoug)
8alive,5to lynch.
Deadline:Wednesday, December 2nd, 12:00 Noon ESTTalk nerdy to me.
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No, you just attacked and voted Netopalis all day and then only when I pointed out that boxman still wasn't posting, did you switch your vote.Konowa wrote:I do not believe that I ever said that I wanted Net dead first. I thought they were both scummy, but with Boxman not posting at all I decided to pressure Net. However, with Boxman's eventual non-reappearance I switched my vote to Boxman because as you said my suspicions of Net were dependent on Boxman being scum.
You never gave the caveat "I'm only voting neto because boxman isn't around to talk to." That is BS. You hardly attack boxman at all or talk about him unless you are attacking netopalis for slowing the wagon on boxman.
I think you just gave a totally innacurate summary of your play yesterday.
unvote; vote konowaTalk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
- Queen of Rock'n'Purl
- Queen of Rock'n'Purl
- Posts: 8610
- Joined: October 13, 2005
- Location: Puppytown
But sens and icerint were trying to tell me that neto was scum no matter boxman's allignment. I was saying neto could not be scum if boxman was not. If you agreed with me, why didn't you say so? Why weren't you voting boxman earlier? You were voting with sens and iecerint, but you disagreed with them?Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
- Queen of Rock'n'Purl
- Queen of Rock'n'Purl
- Posts: 8610
- Joined: October 13, 2005
- Location: Puppytown
oh ho! StrangerCoug is a funny man!
I was buddying boxman, you say?
That is a good one. Maximum lulz!
Also, "TRYING TOO HARD TO LOOK TOWN" definitely is the most horrible reason in the universe. I have no idea how you can tell the difference between someone who looks town and someonetryingto look town. It's basically the "too townie" fallacy.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
- Queen of Rock'n'Purl
- Queen of Rock'n'Purl
- Posts: 8610
- Joined: October 13, 2005
- Location: Puppytown