Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[DCLXVI]

Hey guys, just joined. I'm free most of the day so I'll be able to post thoughts, and maybe some reads in a few hours. I'd appreciate it if you guys could avoid hammering Macrophage before 12 tonight. Wouldn't want to not have posted anything in day 1. That would be sad .

Anyway

unvote:Alicewondering

From what I've read so far [page 4ish] I'm slightly suspicious of Lastsurviver I found the way he was interacting with rhinox to be scummy. I'll put my vote on him for now until I'm done reading the thread.

vote:Lastsurvivor

[DCLXVI]

Hey guys, I've through post 330ish, right now I'm feeling Macrophage is not that good of a lynch, I'll have to go through some iso's once I'm done reading the thread but I think there may be better options.

Also, I like his suggestion of having every who is voting for him give a short summery of why they are voting.

[DCLXVI]

So, initial thoughts after reading through the thread in 3 straight hours.


Reads from first impressions*

Leaning Townish:

Rhinox
Fishythefish
hiplop
4nxi3ty

Not sure about right now:

nachomamma
Macrophage

theomoaner Malee

Kortul
Vincent2128

Voidedmafia

Alicewondering

Leaning scum:

Lastsurviver
Sleepless Assassin
Debonair Danny DiPietro

*Disclaimer, I still have to do iso's so this is subject to change. Just trying to give my initial impression of things.

Some other thoughts, mostly about the macro wagon.

-I think hiplop vs. Rhinox is town v. town.

-I agree that it is difficult to get a read on a replacement player. It is very easy to come in on a 20+ page game and say a lot of non-risky stuff.

-I'm not sold on the Macrophage lynch. Yes the player(s) he replaced may have acted scummy. But so far he has been fairly town from what I've read [more on that later]. I think it is more likely that he replaced a bad/inexperienced towny than that he is scum. But yeah it will be hard to find out.

-One thing that makes me hesitant about calling macro scum because the players he replaced didn't play well is that if I had been another player in the game, I would have definitely found funkybike's actions scummy...yet I now know he wasn't scum... I other words, I'm open to the possibility that the people macro replaced just sucked, as opposed to being scum.

-I'd like to see a concise summery of the case against macro.

Going through and doing some iso's right now...most likely will have that up tonight.

[DCLXVI]

DCL: Explain to me how you know

he

wasn't scum. That line screams that you have some sort of inside info about

him

, to be honest.

Who is the

he

and

him

you are referring to? Is it macro is it funky?

If it is funky, well yeah I know funky's role, I have it.

I don't think I have made any claim to know macro's role, my view is quite the opposite, I'm not sure what his role is am going to be spending a bit of the evening looking into it.

[DCLXVI]

i think I see what Macro is getting at.

He's either scum or very fucking smart town, I'm not sure which though :\

light macro on fire.

No longer smart town, suddenly buffoon scum

Just wondering, what has made him go from smart town to buffoon scum?

[DCLXVI]

So as I was reading the game I made a chart showing who had voted who. I found the information to be very interesting.

I think this post will be very useful down the road when we get some flips.

With the following list I'm going to show how many people have voted for each person. So, the people following the person in bold will be the players who have voted for the bolded person over the course of the game.

I'm very positive this information is correct, but if I have made a mistake counting votes than please point it out

For players that have been replaced I am only using the name of the replacer most times to keep things less confusing.

9

Macrophage

Fishy, rhinox, DCLXVI, 4nxiety, voided, lastsurvivor, hiplop, DDD, Alicewondering
9

Alicewondering

Fishy, rhinox, Nacho, DCLXVI, anxiety, last survivor, hiplop, kortul, Macro
7

DCLXVI

Fishy, Nacho, Kortul, Voided, Lastsurvivor, Sleepless assassin, Alicewondering

5

Sleepless Assassin

Fishy, kortul, lastsurvivor, hiplop, Alicewondering
4

rhinox

fishy, 4nxiety, last survivor, hiplop
3

nachomama

Macro, hiplop, DDD
3

Fishy

4nxiety, sleepless assassin, hiplop
3

Lastsurvivor

Nacho, DCLXVI, 4nxi3ty,
3

Debonair

Macro, Sleepless, Alicewondering
2

hiplop

Alicewondering, Rhinox
2

Voidedmafia

Macro, Rhinox
1

4nxiety

Rhinox
0

kortul

There have been three big wagons over the course of the game, Funky/DCLXVI, Malee/theo/macro, and Alicewondering. I wanted to see if there were similarities between these wagons.

Players that voted for all three sometime in the game 2: Fishy, last survivor
Players that voted for at least two of the major wagons 8: Rhinox, DCLXVI,4nxiety, hiplop, Alicewondering, nacho, kortul, voided
-Players voting for Funky/DCLXVI and Malee/theo/macro 2: Alicewondering, Voided
-Players voting for Funky/DCLXVI and Alicewondering 2: Nacho, kortul
-Players voting for Malee/theo/macro and Alicewondering 4: Rhinox, DCLXVI, 4nxi3ty, hiplop
-Players voting for just one of the wagons: DDD, Sleepless assassin, Macro
-Players not involved in either of the wagons: 0

Some thoughts from all of this analysis:

-Fishy and Last survivor have voted for the exact same players the entire game: Sleepless assassin, rhinox, funky/DCL, macro/theo/malee, Alice.
----These 5 players they voted for are the top 5 wagons so far in the game.

-Rhinox has been involved in voting for a few people no one else has really targeted: 4nxi3ty, hiplop, Voidedmafia.

-Only 3 players did not vote for macro/theo/malee so far: Sleepless assassin, nachomama, kortul.
----However, those three players were all on the funky/DCL wagon.
----Both Nacho and kortul were on alice.

-Only three players did not vote for Alicewondering all game: Sleepless, Voided, DDD

I'm sure some other info can be drawn from the list I made, but I'm to tired to think about it right now...I need sleep...

[DCLXVI]

Ok, I posted this last night but I think it deserves a more thorough look this afternoon.

-Fishy and Last survivor have voted for the exact same players the entire game: Sleepless assassin, rhinox, funky/DCL, macro/theo/malee, Alice.
----These 5 players they voted for are the top 5 wagons so far in the game.

Is it just me or is this odd?

I went back through and looked at the situations for each vote.

Fishy 8: RVS vote on

Sleepless assassin.

LS 27: RVS vote on

malee

, calls out malee for flaking in previous game.
Fishy 47: Votes for

Rhinox

, based someone on a meta read.
LS 49: Votes

Rhinox

after he pressured him.
Fishy 56: Unvotes

Rhinox

, says response to LS seems like a town response.
LS 59: Unovtes

Rhinox

, appears like an attempt to appease Rhinox.
Fishy 67: Votes

funkybike

, for not posting much.
LS 72: Votes

Sleepless assassin

, because of sleepless' accusations towards fish.
FIshy 99: Votes

malee

,
Last survivor 160, Votes

malee

Last survivor 298: Votes

alicewondering

Fishy 319: Votes

alicewondering

, wants to be on the wagon.
Fishy 343: Votes

Funkybike

, doesn't like his level of participation.
Last survivor 353: Votes

Funkybike

, because he doesn't like the alicewagon now.
Fishy 390: Votes

theomoaner

,
Fishy 404, Unvotes

theomoaner

Last survivor 442: Votes

Macro

Fishy 451: Votes

Macro

Fishy 470: Unvotes
Fishy 471: Vote

Macro

Fishy 503: Unvotes
Fishy 520: Votes

LS

(bussing perhaps?)

there is a ton of sheeping going both ways between macro and fishy.

-LS sheeps fishy and votes Rhinox: 47,49
-LS sheeps fihsy and unvotes Rhinox:57,59
-Fishy votes malee in 99, LS eventually votes malee 169 once wagon picks up steam.
-Fishy sheeps LS and votes for Alicewondering: 298,319
-LS sheeps fishy and votes funky: 343,353
-Fishy jumps back and forth on macro, LS joins in. 390.404,442,451 some sheeping going both ways here it looks like.

Here is what I don't get though, they never acknowledge each other throughout the game very much. Here are the occasions where they interact. (mostly indirectly)

-LS denies sheeping fishy: 52
-LS Asks SA who is scummier, fishy,malee, or DDD:82
-LS says SA should expand more on the fishy/malee stuff: 119
-LS asks fishy a question about hiplop: 229
-LS calls fishy town in his reads:323
-LS strongly denies sheeping fishy, but admits fishy helped show him Rhinox was town: 434

-Fishy doesn't like the way LS is seeming to try to appease Rhinox: 68
-Fishy lists LS in his townreads: 146
-Fishy says LS is one of his stronger townreads: 156
-Fishy thinks LS lost the argument with Rhinox: 161
-Fishy responds to LS question: 227
-Fishy responds to LS 229 I think: 259
-Fishy again calls LS town: 322
-Fishy calls LS town: 404

-Fishy 520 votes LS:

Some thoughts from this:

-Fishy goes the whole game calling LS town and then proceeds to vote him: WTF? Distancing?

-They almost always have had there votes on the same player. And if one person changes there vote the other is usually quick to follow.

-They have both pushed all the major wagons in the game so far.

-LS has called fishy town all game. He has defended fish and questioned other people pushing of fish.

-Neither has been critical of the other for nearly the entire game.

Bold Prediction-

Fishy and LS are scumbuddies.

They have sheeped each other all game. Defended each other all game. Called each other town the whole game. Yet have had almost no direct interaction. Once the wagon started to go towards LS in the end, fishy started bussing LS.

[DCLXVI]

Something I noticed while going through some ISO's

I was waiting to see IF funky would respond before throwing my thoughts in here. It is certainly by the book to pressure less active players into posting more, but unfortunately this is about all we're going to get from funky. Fortunately, what we're getting matches town-funky more than scum-funky right now. Unfortunately, my scum meta hardcopy vanished in the crash so I can't confirm. But my recollection is that scum funky is more active and involved, whereas town funky lurks and has no idea what to say most of the time. I think funky just has more fun playing scum. Since I can't confirm my meta I'm not going to rely on it 100% the whole game, but I'm probably not going to be interested lynching funky today, espectially if the reason is his activity. If I were a vig though, he'd be at the top of my list.

This makes me think Rhinox is town. I don't see why scum would go to the trouble to look at someone's meta to call them town, when most of the town seems to think that person is scum. I think scum would much rather hop onto a wagon than defend it like this.

[DCLXVI]

For pushing the major wagons - yes. They were pretty good wagons. Lots I've started or pushed before they became popular (Rhinox, Malee, funky mostly). Some others I've sheeped on. Is any of that scummy?

Sometimes wagons are too good to be true. Having spent some more time looking at the wagons here is what I think of them.

Malee/theomoaner/Macro:

Malee got nailed for a mistake she made in RVS thinking that someone had voted when they hadn't. Nacho did the same thing but no one has been on his case. The face that Malee got confused after presusure and Nacho didn't probably contributed to that. Also the level of involvement wasn't that great from Malee which didn't help her case. This is more a case of Stupidity/forgetfulness does not equal scumminess.

Funkybike:

This is more of a lurker hunt as opposed to scumhunt. If I had not replaced for Funky I think a lynch on him would be justified.

Alicewondering:

I'm having a hard time understanding the reasons for this wagon, what I did notice is that both you[fishy] and LS abandoned it to jump onto the next wagon. LS was the first on the alicewagon, you were the third and you sheeped, theo and LS in voting Alice. Then you jump off when Alice gets to L-2, LS jumps off when Alice gets to L-2 again. Had you both followed through on you vehement "alice is scum" reads, Alice likely would have been lynched.

The fact is that both you and LS have seemed rather opportunistic in jumping on the person that is "most scummy" at the moment rather than actually trying to get someone lynched. The scumhunting being done by both of you feels fake. You both leave before a lynch can happen each time.

[DCLXVI]

DCL: You're ignoring the two other wagons on Macro spot, yknow.

Could you explain a bit more? I'm not sure what you are referring to...

@LS, can you at least respond, I didn't spend 3 hours ISOing you and fishy to get a "no comment"

I don't have any intention of doing the OMG he responded therefore he is scum argument against you. Do you agree or disgagree with what I saw. If you think I'm wrong say so, but ignoring is more scummy imho than responding.

[DCLXVI]

Why did you only talk about the wagon on Malee and not the ones on Theo and Macro?

The impression I got is that the wagons on Theo and Macro were based mostly off of the wagon on Malee. This is why I addressed only the malee wagon in the post I think you are refering to.

[DCLXVI]

@voided well, the macro wagon hit L-1 before the softclaim/read switch. But it got to the L-1 mostly based on the malee/theo stuff.

I think we can agree that malee/theo have tainted the slot that macro is in.

[DCLXVI]

OK. I'm flip-flopping like crazy here. I can't convince myself of anything at all. I'm not really seeing the LS case - his recent responses to me are pretty convincing. For the Macro wagon, Malee was scummy, theo was mixed and Macro's been solid. But his claim really puts me off - claiming non-VT and then VT seems unlikely to stop a lynch, as opposed to say claiming cop or doc outright. It's not the sort of thing I've ever seen scum trying to pull. Here's my final answer (up to deadline shenanigans):

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DDD

Read DDD's ISO. It won't take long. There's nothing in there that looks like he's trying to catch scum - the closest he comes is with the Amished tell, when he wants the support of others. He's never really pushed anything.

My access will be pretty poor for the next couple of days. I should get on to vote near deadline if necessary.

I would suggest looking at DDD's meta. He plays this way both as town and scum. I looked at his ISO in about a dozen other games and it looks remarkable similar to his ISO in this game. I agree that the style itself is suspicious, however given the meta of him I'm not convinced he is the best lynch today.

[DCLXVI]

DCL: Can you link me to a DDD-town game?

Town: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=18887
Scum: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

From just skimming through the ISO's there isn't any major difference in DDD's scum and town playstyle.

[DCLXVI]

Help us find scum and fuck everything else.

QTF

[DCLXVI]

Why I think day one should end with a lastsurvivor lynch.

My votes been on LS most of the time I've been here so I think I need to give some explanation for why exactly I think he is scum.


1. His interaction with Rhinox is scummy.

post 32: Basically, Rhinox has said "good point" to a question LS asked DDD. LS than completely gets very pushy and aggressive towards Rhinox over something which shouldn't be an issue.

The accusation about Rhinox not doing enough scumhunting by post 27 is very ridiculous.

post 49: LS is responding to Rhinox' defense in post 42.

The way he takes apart and misconstrues Rhinox's post is scummy. I also did not like the condescending tone that was being used. This post isn't so much a response as just LS going through Rhinox's post and sarcastically misrepresenting what is being said.

The part that was most scummy was this.

So you get out of the RVS by making fluff posts? This is your first real post that I'd consider to be content, ftr, and it's defending yourself.

This is the classic, accuse someone, than accuse them for defending themself. Something that LS is against as he recently asked me not to do it to him.

Again LS is making a big deal out of "fluff" rvs posts in the first page and a half of the game. There is some reaching going on here.

post 57 The ending of this is so scummy, basically after LS is done attacking he tries to appease him, like he doesn't want Rhinox to target him. It feels scummy and I don't like it.

So in summery of this part, LS makes some bs accusations towards Rhinox and when Rhinox gives some very good responses LS lets up and tries to appease Rhinox.

2. LS pushing the alice wagon, yet jumping off of them before a lynch could occur.

Before I get into the proof that he did this, I want to explain why this is scummy.

The goal of scum during the day is to get townies mis-lynched while not being seen doing it. By starting wagons and then jumping off once they have really gotten going scum are able to potentially get a townie lynch but at the same time not be held responsible for it as they jumped off the wagon.

This is what I think happened in the Alice wagon.

LS is the first one on the wagon at post 298. He leaves when the wagon is at L-2 in post 353.

He can claim that he suddenly decided that Alice was a townsperson, that doesn't mean we have to believe it.

3. Then there is the whole lying/notlying thing about why he jumped off the Alicewagon:

LS implies right before he unvotes alice that he thinks Alice is town because of how Alice viewed DDD.

@alice: As much as I agree with your points on DDD (

hence why I was doubting my read and switched my vote

), you're not going to get enough momentum for a lynch before deadline. So you should totally vote funky too.

Ok then we have this:

I unvoted her because I thought over it all again and realized she was probably town.

DDD didn't have anything to do with it and I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

The post you quoted about DDD had nothing to do with why I unvoted her. I was just trying to get Alice to unvote DDD and vote Funky.

Then we have this:

Well, your acting as if I ONLY unvoted Alice based on her points on DDD. That's not true. It was because of her play in general and my rethinking of the case that caused me to unvote.

So, yeah, DDD did have something to do with it.

But you're overstating the significance.

It is easy to forget a lie, it is harder to forget the truth. Townies don't need to lie about why they change votes, scum do and it looks like LS has been acting pretty scummy here.

I mistyped/lied when I said that her points about DDD had nothing to do with me unvoting.BUT you're still misinterpreting the post. I saw Alice's general posting after I posted my case and started doubting myself. Basically I started doubting myself when she actually replied to my case. Then I looked back on my case and realized it was crap and unvoted.

Yes, DDD had something to do with it, but it was only a part.

If you think of it in that context, I'm not sure how what I originally said doesn't make sense. I think you're just being too literal with your words.

4. Participation on all the major wagons.

By being on all the major wagons LS is able to appear as if he is scum hunting when he is really just going along with the crowd. There is nothing wrong with jumping in on bandwagons, but when a player is involved in all of them it stands out as scummy.

As I've shown earlier LS has been voted for the 5 players who have received the most votes this game, he has not voted for anyone else. This follow the crowd mentality is inherently scummy. With the exception of the Alice situation that is what he has been doing.

5. Contradictory view on wagon hopping.

Alice, what encouraged you to switch to funky? That's a textbook wagon hop right there.

the fact that you BW hopped doesn't really make it any less bad.[/size]

But yeah, wagon hopping isn't scummy. Nice try.

Hm, wagon hopping is bad when other people do it, but it is not bad when LS is accused of doing it.

[DCLXVI]

I know this point has been said before, but Macro's survivalism is really starting to bother me. In the beginning of the game I was trying to disregard it as a tell since, after all, he was coming in with a BW on him. But now I think it's clear that he has a shot since there are two counterwagons. Yet, he's still going on.

The behavior doesn't consist with a VT either. A VT might have panicked while they replaced in, but I don't think they'd still be in survival mode now. I'd think they'd be doing what Nacho suggested Macro should do. Find the scum before they get lynched and leave the town with something to work with from their flip.

I disagree, I think survivalism is a trait shown by town and scum alike. Townies should try to not get mislynched because that does set the town back.

As a townie I definitely try to avoid getting lynched, because I know my lynch will hurt the town.

[DCLXVI]

Just to be clear, the purpose of my previous post wasn't necessarly to start some of these arguments with LS again, though I'm sure he will have responses to them the issues have played out as much as they can.

The purpose was more to convince people that LS was scum, not to argue further with him, though that will be a necessary side product I guess.

#1: Eh. You've gotta keep in mind that this happen in the very first pages of the game. Of course there's going to be "reaching" involved in my case. But that's what creates content, discussion, etc. I basically knew the case was ridiculous going in, but I was just seeing how Rhinox would react. He reacted fine, so I backed off but did a reaction test. The post looks appeasey because I wanted to see how Rhinox would react when I didn't unvote after I totally put on a different tone. Nacho called me out first, so I didn't even bother following through with the test though.

Basically, it's pretty unfair of you to call this case scummy for all the reasons you said it was unfair for me to do it: It was early game, and I was trying to jumpstart it and create content.

Hm, it seems like you are saying it's ok to do things scummy things early game in order to get the discussion moving. Not sure how I feel about that.

I'm skeptical of the whole "reaction test" stuff, it just seems to me like it can be an easy out.

#2: :/ Why even bother making a point if you're just going to say "Yeah, and I know how he's going to defend himself, but I don't believe him!" I mean, sorry that I don't blindly charge on with my reads if I start to doubt them. But feel free to continue calling this a scum point!

Well, maybe my post wasn't just an argument with you. Maybe I'm trying to convince other players that you are scum and am saying I don't believe your explanations for jumping off Alice

#3: Oh, wonderful, now you're beating this dead horse too.

Well, I put this in as part of the reason I don't believe your jump off of alice. As far as beating a dead horse, I was simply being thorough in explaining why I consider you scum. Again, not trying to start the argument all over again with you.

#4: Er, sure, I have been involved in all the major bandwagons. But how many of those bandwagons have I actually hopped onto?

Rhinox: Wasn't really a major wagon when I hopped on. Only had one vote: Fishy. You might not count this as a major wagon since it never got more than two votes, though, but I'm assuming you are since you thought it was scummy.
Sleepless Assassin: I was the first person to seriously vote SA (Alice had a RVS vote on him). So he definitely wasn't a major BW when I voted him. Two others voted SA, so I guess you could consider this one of the major wagons. But I arguably made it one of the major wagons.
Malee: Wagon hop.
Alice: I was the first person to vote Alice. It's quite unfair to accuse me of being involved in a major BW for Alice when I could not have known that it would have been a major BW.
Funky: I guess I was the third person to hop on this wagon, so it was barely a wagon hop.
Macro: Wagon hop.

So...3/6? Yeah, you're overexaggerating on this point. You can't really accuse me of being involved in major wagons if the wagons haven't materialized.

I made two claims in point 4.

1. You were on all the major wagons.
2. You had voted for the 5 people to get the most votes over the course of the game.

You did not disprove either of those points.

Rhinox was not a major wagon, neither was sleepless.

Malee, funky, and macro you hopped onto. Alice you started.

So really it is 3/4 which was my point in the first place.

Secondly I said you had voted for the 5 people to get the most votes over the course of the game and not for anyone else. My post 518 proves that.

#5: Err, no. Wagon hopping is a null tell and become a scum tell depending on context.

#209: Was a question. I was trying to figure out the motivations for the wagon hop since there was little explanation provided by Alice.
#223: Yeah, context is important in this quote bro. 4n tried to lampshade that he was hopping as if that would make it less bad. Really, it was the lampshading that bothered me, not the hop. Later on, I say that as long as he explains why he changed his vote later I don't mind.
#434: Yeah, BW hopping really isn't bad if you just explain your vote and stuff. Then it's a null tell: Not really anything.

I disagree, first quote implies wagon hopping is bad.

Second quote, "4n tried to lampshade that he was hopping as if that would make it less bad." Wagon hopping seems to be viewed as bad if it something can be done in an attempt to make it "less bad."

Third quote. however when wagon hopping is applied to you it becomes a situational tell. How convenient.

I've looked at the context and I don't think it changes anything there.

[DCLXVI]

#1: Busted. I already said it was a reaction test early on in the game way before anyone called me out on it.

About post 57: What the point of reaction testing someone if you are going to hint strongly at it? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

Anyway, my issue was that you left your vote on him after you had seemed to try and appease him in post 57. Nachomama calls you out in post 58 on leaving your vote and you reply "reaction test." in post 59

#2 + #3: Are dead horses that I've already debunked. DCL is unwilling to reargue them, so I'm striking them from the record.

First, I was not aware that you had power to strike things from the record. /sarcasm

Secondly, I brought these points up to explain why I'm voting you and to convince other people to do the same [consider it a "recap' of sorts]. Not arguing them does not make the issue a moot point. because there isn't much point going further with these because it is becoming a yes,no,yes, no,yes,no issue.

#4: DCL provides two subpoints: That I've been on all five major wagons,

and that I voted them to "get the most votes.

" Subpoint 1 doesn't really prove anything scummy, but he is right, I have. He hasn't proved the second one. The post he provided as evidence for the second point (#518) proves the first point. But not the second point whatsoever

About subpoint two: Here is what I have said:

As I've shown earlier LS has been voted for the 5 players who have received the most votes this game, he has not voted for anyone else.

2. You had voted for the 5 people to get the most votes over the course of the game.

by saying that I accused you of having

"voted them to 'get the most votes.'"

, you are twisting my accusation.

I would say involvement in all the major wagons and not being involved in anything else is scummy.

#5: Busted. DCL can't look at context, even though he claims he can.

Just went through and looked at context.

quote 1, post 209: The quote from 298 is completely irrelevant to this post. Context? Are you saying I should look 100 posts away to find some fucking context? I've gone through and looked at post 209, I didn't take anything out of context there. To claim that post 298 provides context is ridiculous.

quote 2, post 223: Again what you are trying to do is quote from other posts to say I was avoiding context. The context of a post is the information in a post, not stuff from outside the post.

quote 3, post 434: "But yeah, wagon hopping isn't scummy. Nice try." this does conflict with what was said in context.

Basically LS has accused me of ignoring context, but his definition of context can be posts that were nearly 100 slots away. bs.

[DCLXVI]

thoughts on the new day...


First, blahh....I screwed up on my LS read. My apologies LS.

Really don't like macro's switch on his voided read, is it just me or does it seem like macro swapped from calling voided scum to town late in day 1 simply to try and get voided off of his wagon?

I don't like the way DDD was dismissive of Rhinox post.

I'm glad that Rhinox got the extra vote, as far as reads go he is the person I think is most likely to be town.

I'm going to do a re-read sometime tomorrow, yeah for weekends without homework.

[DCLXVI]

Sorry I didn't post over the weekend, let's just say I blame the d3 beta for cutting into my mafia time.

Also, i do not agree with his view that "wagons on Theo and Macro were based mostly off of the wagon on Malee" - theo is equally (if not more) tainted the slot.

I think what I was trying to say was that malee tainted the theo slot, and then theo tainted it some more. Macro slot was then tainted by both of them. Therefor the wagon on theo started off as based on malee, and the macro wagon was based off of malee+theo.

As far as reads go, I'll do a full list later but I'm leaning town on Rhinox and Kortul and leaning scum on Macro, I'm not sure about DDD.

As far as macro goes, I was willing to give the him the benifit of doubt for his first change from thinking voided was scum to saying voided was town. Read changes happen. But when macro reversed that read again and is now calling voided scum that just appears very suspicious to me.

[DCLXVI]

@DCL: Do you have your own thoughts on why it's suspicious or are you just copying everyone else? (The latter is ok btw)

Well, there is only one reason for your read switch to be suspicious.

[DCLXVI]

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum

I wouldn't say that I have been pushing you much.

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town?

That really depends on you. If you act like town I hopefully will see you as town. If you act like scum I will most likely see you as scum. I don't see you as definite scum right now.

[DCLXVI]

You haven't, but the way you've done it is scummy.

These responses have actually been interesting. Voided's is scummy. Kortul's I'm not sure about. DCL's is townish.

Ok, so I haven't pushed you but the way I did was scummy? That doesn't make sense at all.

So I did something scummy while not pushing you and I appear townish?

[DCLXVI]

Also, can you answer the question about that reason for me changing my reads?

sorry, thought I had already answered that.

Your flip on voided is scummy because you start by calling him scum, you then call him town when you are at l-1, then you call him scum again when you are safer. Seems like the read only changed to town because you wanted to save yourself from getting lynched.

If you don't mind could you now answer my question?

[DCLXVI]

Voided was on the wagon, macro appeared to be sucking up to him to get voided to get off the wagon.

[DCLXVI]

One read change is understandable, but now macro is going back to calling voided scum. The circumstances around the read change are definitely scummy.

[DCLXVI]

Also, why aren't you voting me?

I haven't decided whether or not you are scum yet.

I wouldn't say that I am pushing you so much as trying to figure out what your alignment is, I fucked up trying to read LS and I'm trying to be more careful.

[DCLXVI]

-vote macro

Now you can say I am pushing you.

reasons:

-Vote changes on voided.

-PR claim then VT claim, the temptation to bang my head against a wall for letting myself get tricked into thinking macro was town for that is very strong

-I don't like how macro is calling me town, the way macro is acting seems like he is trying to placate people into not voting him. I played like shit day 1, calling me town for a response that was not townish or scummish was terrible imho. Yes other people have said I may be town, but they had much better logic behind in then calling a simple response townish.

-defending himself by saying he is town. That's like saying your not guilty because your not a criminal...

[DCLXVI]

no

[DCLXVI]

It wasn't the fact you are calling me town, it was the dubious reasoning for it.

[DCLXVI]

Lolz at awkward page breaks, those two posts were a response to macro's 749 btw.

[DCLXVI]

Is there anything I could do that would cause you to unvote me?

I'm not sure how to answer this, is it possible my read could change on you, of course, but to be honest I'm not sure what it would take to see you as town. I think acting like town would help. Yes, I'm being intentionally vague.

[DCLXVI]

I promise I will go into more detail about the rest of you post later this afternoon, but I feel like responding to this part now.

There's the *not liking me calling him town*. Firstly, this is exaggerated because I just said something he said was townish. I can't see myself having any problem with someone saying that to me. Secondly, he claims that his response was not actually townish or scummy. I think this strongly indicates scum, because it's trying too hard to justify his reason for voting me, but also because if I'm town, and someone says something I said was town, I would naturally believe that what I said was indicative of town. I could see scum thinking that they didn't do anything townish in a post though. Thirdly, if he believes that I had him as a townread, how does he think he knows my reasoning for calling him town? which I didn't even do! And he's not even asking why I found it townish, which I would expect before going on about how my reasoning is terrible.

Macro's question:

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town? If you're town, please answer this question seriously. I understand what it's like to think someone scum and want to get rid of them for a clearer read of the game regardless of their alignment.

My answer:

That really depends on you. If you act like town I hopefully will see you as town. If you act like scum I will most likely see you as scum. I don't see you as definite scum right now.

Macro's response:

These responses have actually been interesting. Voided's is scummy. Kortul's I'm not sure about. DCL's is townish.

So macro calls my response townish. Two reasons why it is bad.

1. My answer wasn't pro-town or anti-town. I don't see what stood out about my answer that would make someone say. OH that is definitely town. It just doesn't make sense. Yes I am town, but I find it odd when people call me town for reasons that are just absurd. It felt like macro was scum trying to buddy up to me.

2. It was conveniently placed, macro felt like I was pushing him, yet I hadn't voted him yet. Calling me town could definitely have been in order to try and keep me off his wagon.

[DCLXVI]

Sorry about not responding to this earlier, but yeah I'll go through this paragraph by paragraph.

Since the beginning of the day, it's seemed a lot like he wants to suspect me, but has been too hesitant to get on my wagon.

He hasn't really mentioned anyone else as possible scum, which I don't really know how to explain, but I think town would consider other people as scum while making up their mind about one person.

The thing that has made me think DCL scummy is his vote on me in 748.

Three reasons I didn't vote you quickly.

1. I didn't want a quicklynch day 2, you wagon started off very fast which is one reason I did not join.
2. I wasn't as sure of my reads since being wrong on LS
3. I wasn't as sure you were scum, I wanted to see some more from you before I made my decision

Yes, I suppose I am a little guilty of tunneling right now however I do have some other suspects just haven't called them out yet, I'm working on finishing up reads in the next 1-2 hours for this game. Meant to do it earlier and put it off.

This is the definition of OMGUS.

First->

The reasons he presents are interesting. As expected, there is the voided read change.

The second point is hard for me to figure out. Possibly scum trying look convinced that I'm scum? It's really unnatural considering the reasons for his change in opinion of me from 746, which I'll get to now.

As expected? Not sure what that is trying to imply

The second point is simply me admitting that I was wrong in interpreting you pr to vt roleclaim switch as a sign that of you being town. Again not sure why this is unnatural

There's the *not liking me calling him town*. Firstly, this is exaggerated because I just said something he said was townish. I can't see myself having any problem with someone saying that to me. Secondly, he claims that his response was not actually townish or scummy. I think this strongly indicates scum, because it's trying too hard to justify his reason for voting me, but also because if I'm town, and someone says something I said was town, I would naturally believe that what I said was indicative of town. I could see scum thinking that they didn't do anything townish in a post though. Thirdly, if he believes that I had him as a townread, how does he think he knows my reasoning for calling him town? which I didn't even do! And he's not even asking why I found it townish, which I would expect before going on about how my reasoning is terrible.

This was already addressed in my post 760. Which I don't believe macro has yet responded to.

The fourth point is really bad and I can easily see scum putting it there just to justify their vote better.

Again, excellent argumentation by macro, "the fourth point is really bad" saying something is bad does not equal showing why it is bad.

So, back to what I was saying earlier. I don't see how these two poorly thought out additional reasons can lead him to go from making his mind up about me to being convinced I'm scum, especially considering his cautiousness by not voting me. It doesn't make any sense from town, but it does fit together for DCL-scum being concerned about jumping on my wagon and wanting to have sufficient unique reasoning to support it. Even the vote post itself leads me to believe this.

Well, first off as I've shown my third point was actually well thought out, and all you did was call my fourth point bad without explaining what was bad. So I to claim that I changed my read on you based on two poorly thought out additional reasons is just rhetoric.


tl;dr

Basically, macros's "case" against me is pure OMGUS fluff aimed at drawing attention away from his wagon and onto to one of his accusers.

There are a lot of claims made in his case that aren't backed up, macro calls parts of my case unatural and another part of it bad and neither time does he try to back up those claims. There is a lot of rhetoric, and little logical analysis and proof behind his attack on me.

[DCLXVI]

@Mod & everyone else, going to be going v/la from now till Thursday afternoon. Just have a ton of projects due Thursday and I'm thinking I will not have time to post on MS.

[DCLXVI]

...my head says macro is scum, my gut says he is town...dang it I'm going with my gut on this, I'm getting cold feet about lynching macro, this post doesn't feel like scum:

Unvote: Debonair

Can you claim?

unvote:macro
Vote:DDD

[DCLXVI]

Where are the reads you promised like two weeks ago? You never answered my question on your case about Macro. While i disagreed with some of your points on day 1, i liked you general activity and logical thoughts, but today you are a shadow of yourself. I waited since you were V/LA, but after your return you are active all over the forum but not here. I do want to hear your thoughts and answers.

honestly I have been putting off posting over here because I don't have much of an idea as to what reads I have. I thought replacing and coming up with reads would be easier because of the abundance of information but all the stuff that I came up with yesterday was dead wrong, and I'm really not sure about who is what right now.

I did do a re-read of the thread about a week ago last weekend, honestly I wasn't sure about my reads on anyone, and while I want to post reads, I'm not going to post them if I don't believe them as that isn't going to help anything. But here is where I'm at right now.

The people I'm leaning town on are rhinox, fishy and macro

Scum, DDD most of the people on his wagon are town I think so I am sheeping them by being on it. not sure about 4nxi3ty either but I can't back that up. Otherwise I have no idea about anyone's alignment despite having read through the thread twice now. Which takes forever with how long it is.

as to some of the questions:

Speaking of the VCA, DCL, are you going to go back to it?

Not sure, it didn't turn out so well, I don't think I will till we have a scum flip

[DCLXVI]

I actually agree that this post of Macro doesn't feel like coming from scum,

Then why was your vote still on him until you swapped over to me?

[DCLXVI]

@kortul, I didn't think that magua was quoting me. I thought he was saying me and fishy were scummy. maybe I read that wrong...

[DCLXVI]

unvote:DDD

his roleclaim seems believable. Though at this point if he has a 1 shot day ability that could help town. It may be best if it is used before a lynch happens.

[DCLXVI]

Probably the best lynch today and he already has a miniwagon, so let's do this.

actually I had

0

votes on me when you laid that vote down. This is scummy. let me paraphrase SA "oh look, a little wagon, let's get on it"

vote:SA

yes, this is an OMGUS vote. Macro is likely town, I believe DDD's claim and right now SA is coming off as scum trying to get an easy last second mislynch.

[DCLXVI]

I'm a vanilla townie, and yes my will is set,

There really isn't a case against me right now which will be evident after my town flip (if I am actually lynched.) Honestly, I'm rather surprised I'm even at L-1 right now.

One thing really got my attention though.

OK well I've read through the last 10 pages or so, so I guess I'm officially caught up. But I really don't have anything grounbreaking to say right now.

DCL and alice now magua are still townreads for me.

Nice job putting one of your townreads at L-1.

[DCLXVI]

My wagon is BS. Really, it is.

Both Rhinox and fishy were recently calling me town and all of the sudden now want my lynch. Seriously? reminds me of someone running for president in 2004

Macro's vote is just an OMGUS case (granted it is a town one but still...) his "case" on me is just him saying he didn't like my case on him.

SA is the only one who has consistently been suspicious of my slot. However, his "lets jump on this bandwagon" when I didn't have a single vote on me is very scummy.

Those are the people making up the 6 votes on me.

Not one comprehensive case on why I am scum has been made. (other than macros omgus thing)

sheesh guys...I know we don't want to lynch a potential mason or pr, but still this is a pretty awful mislynch in the making.

Just to be clear, I don't intend on voting macro or DDD wagons just to save myself from getting lynched as I think they are town.

[DCLXVI]

DCLXVI, can you help me with the following? I am confused by your "Just to be clear, I don't intend on voting macro or DDD wagons just to save myself from getting lynched as I think they are town." If you are town, you definitely know only your own alignment, so why sacrifice yourself for someone else? I don't see any scum motivation here, just don't understand the mindset, can you explain your thoughts?

Well, I (wrongly) considered macro town at that point, and as DDD/anxiety were also strong townreads because of their claims I didn't want them lynched.

As I think we noticed yesterday it is very easy for a quick bandwagon to form up, I was hoping for a sleepless assassin lynch because of how he jumped on me.

My play was not good at all yesterday and I was having trouble getting any reads, so at that point I did not feel like it would hurt town if I got lynched. But with this scum flip and the claims I think there is a lot more to work off on.

The two people I currently suspect are SA and fishy.

Scum were trying to get a counterwagon to Macro, they went at DDD, then Anxiety, luckily for town they had good claims, scum then went for me. With my VT claim it seemed like I was going to be lynched.

Town:
Rhinox:scum won't hop over to a partner with someone else claiming vt at l-1.
Voided: Probably is mason with 4xniety
DDD:believable claim, not an ability I would think scum would be allowed to have.

Inbetween:
Magua
hiplop
kortul

Scum:
Fishy-I believe fishy was on the DDD, 4nxiety, and DCL wagons (but I will need to check)
SA-starting the counterwagon on me

I'll put a vote on either of them later on I need to go back and look at some stuff

[DCLXVI]

Two reason I find fishy scummy:

1. His defending of macro

So, the case on Macro. I think it sucks. Points I can find against him:

- His original vote on Voided. I see nothing scummy about it at all.
- His turnaround from thinking Voided is scum to town. I can't see a scum motivation for this at all - Voided was dead set on Macro, and appeasing him wasn't going to do Macro any good. And the timing makes it really fit with Macro-town-giving-up at that point; I can really see Macro thinking that the argument he'd had with Voided made Voided look ok, and he just didn't care about consistency.
- The claims. I don't think they look scummy. I don't think scum are likely claim not-VT and then VT - that's just not how you
getting lynched.
- His turnaround back to thinking Voided is scummy. It happened a while after he attacked Voided, and they'd interacted in the mean time. I don't see why this is scummy at all. How is this a particularly scummy change of opinion?
- Defending himself by saying he is town. This isn't typically scummy, and I can't find any scummy examples of it in Macro's play.
- Calling DCL town with poor reasoning. This is pretty weak; DCL's response is what a townie *should* say, and to call it townish is hardly unlikely.

Fishy didn't just say something along the lines of "I think macro is town, or I think the case on him is bad" instead he went through and refuted it point by point he really did not want macro lynched.

2. He was on all the counterwagons.

Fishy voted for DDD, got off after the claim.
Jumps to 4nxiety, gets off after the claim
Then jumps on me, and calls for my lynch despite having previously called me a town read multiple times. He was desperate for a lynch other than macro.

Vote:Fishythefish

this is our scum, lynch him.

[DCLXVI]

unvote:fishy

been thoroughly analyzing macro's reads, I don't think fishy is scum any more.

[DCLXVI]

unvote:fishy

been thoroughly analyzing macro's reads, I don't think fishy is scum any more.

Elaborate pl0x.

Macro was fairly consistent in calling fishy town with one exception which was in a post where he was at L-1

Other than that, I'm not really sure. There are a quite a few things I've found very townish about Fishy throughout, like his early play, and asking to be put at the top of my will, but his continued presence on my wagon and the unvotes which seem like scum trying to look they're considering things when he's actually not changing his opinion at all, make me think he's scum.

It feels very much like he is trying to guilt trip fishy into getting off his wagon. I suppose it could be him trying to last minute bus his partner but as fishy is again a townread d2 I'm thinking that this looks much more like macro trying to get town off his wagon.

[DCLXVI]

vote:kortul

L-2 now, should claim

when kortul unvoted alice and voted LS, LS was at L-2, macro was at L-3. A vote on macro would have put them at even. I do not see why kortul would have chosen to vote someone who had been a townread nearly the entire game over a slot he had considered scummy.

The difference between him and fishy really is that fishy flipped his read on macro to town.

Not a safe move for scum to do if macro got lynched.

kortul played the situation safe by still calling macro scum in the event that macro actually still got lynched.

[DCLXVI]

I'm curious why he should claim now with no one threatening a hammer.

1. He is pretty much at l-1 since there are two people off the wagon who have two votes.
2. There are people off the wagon considering voting for him including voided

Agreed. Mag and I are the only people who can hammer when he's at L-2 (Rhinox and Fishy are alread on him), and while I can't speak for him, I'm not entirely sold on Kortul-scum. It sounds very much like he's anticipating one of us coming in to finish off Kortul or something, and I don't really like that sentiment.

Yes, I am anticipating someone coming and hammering kortul. I think he is scum and should be lynched. That said, he still should be allowed to role-claim if he wants to on the odd chance he has something verifiable.

[DCLXVI]

DCL, please explain where at all I've indicated I would definitively lynch Kortul. I've stated that, if it comes down to it at the deadline, I'd lynch him over Fishy, but that does not and should not mean that I want him dead now.

PoE to me dictates that Kortul or SA, or Mag would be where I'd place my votes today, though they're not all bad choices.

[DCLXVI]

I think 1060 & 1061 were equally informative.

[DCLXVI]

Your 1062 is so informative, too.

Relax, the irony was intentional.


in response to 1035:

Logically, town wouldn't quickhammer someone, but people don't always act logically. I've seen town quickhammer without claims before.


in response to 1060:

I've explained why I find kortul scummy.

[DCLXVI]

@DCL: I didn't ask why you found him scummy. I asked why you found him scummier than myself, Fishy, or Sleepless.

I will elucidate: Assuming there are 3 mafia, and, FYPOV, knowing that you are not one of the three, which do you feel is more likely:
a. Both of the other mafia were bussing Macrophage, or
b. 0-1 other mafia were bussing Macrophage and 1-2 mafia were not

B

[DCLXVI]

And if they're quickhammering scum, what's the issue exactly? Shouldn't we be grateful for another dead scum and someone who is incredibly likely to be town given a quickhammer on scum?

Yes I think kortul is scum, so in that sense a quickhammer on him would not have been bad. But I'm leaving open the option that I'm wrong. It is completely possible that he has could have a legitimate town role-claim to make. Unlikely, but still possible which was why I asked for that when he was effectively at L-1.

[DCLXVI]

Wow, d3 has completely made me forget about mafia..

Anyway, I don't really like the case magua is making on fishy, the meta arguments really don't make a lot of sense. Besides, what is the point of meta if someone is not going to look at all the samples. Not sure if magua is being lazy town or sneaky scum with what he is trying to do but I don't like it either way.

[DCLXVI]

lolz at fail fakehammer.

especially since it came after the votecount.

[DCLXVI]

SA's apparent indifference to be at L-1 bothers me as well.

I am willing to hammer him.

[DCLXVI]

Hm, people I'm not willing to lynch.

Voided, DDD, Rhinox, Fishy, hiplop

People I would lynch

kortul, magua, SA

[DCLXVI]

Please elucidate how in your head you're holding the idea that you're willing to lynch both myself and SA.

Maybe I find you both independently scummy and potential partners with kortul.

Nah, that couldn't possibly be what I'm thinking.

[DCLXVI]

Newsflash: kortul's not getting lynched. Vote someone who might get lynched.

magua, your the one telling me to vote someone else, and now you say:

No, that can't be possibly what you're thinking because then you wouldn't be all "Hey gaiz I'm ok with lynching SA," you'd be, "Fuck this, lynch kortul."

um, all I can say is lolz.


So which is it. Should I vote someone who can get lynched, or should I vote for kortul.

care to make up your mind on what you want me to do?

[DCLXVI]

Consider this Magua.

Maybe I suspect SA more than I suspect you. Kinda surprised at how wound up you are getting over this. Do you want me to be voting you?



@Voided

the lynch pool order doesn't matter.

The order would be Kortul, SA, Magua, with a scum flip by SA clearing magua.

[DCLXVI]

So just to be clear magua,

You think that SA is scum, but you would rather have me vote for you..how odd...

[DCLXVI]

Well, as voided is "confused" and I find your behavior odd, I think that what you are doing is not "pretty obvious to everyone."

[DCLXVI]

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish right now, which is why I find what you are doing odd.

and since you don't seem to want to explain, then I guess this situation isn't going to move forward.

[DCLXVI]

I'm fine waiting 2-3 days for SA to say whatever he wants to say. Deadline is in 8 days, so giving him through Tuesday will be fair.

[DCLXVI]

-Void=maybe actually scum now

Are you reading the same game as the rest of us?

[DCLXVI]

@SA, so, when do you think you will be able to finish the analysis you were planning on doing. Not meaning to rush you, but at the same time you are at L-1 so yeah...

[DCLXVI]

I don't want to lynch SA today, he is my weakest scum read and I'm getting a town vibe from his recent posting...

I'd vote for either a magua or a kortul lynch..

However, I do agree that we should wait for hiplop's replacement.

@mod, I assume there will be a short extension if hiplop is replaced?

[DCLXVI]

@SA what about kortul or hiplop

[DCLXVI]

The thing i don't like is that he was casualy trying to shift suspicions from the slot to the bad play of funky or to lurkiness:

There are two ways I could have come in and responded to funky's poor play. I could have defended it, or I could have admitted it was bad play.

Defending him would have been hard because first off I don't know what he was thinking writing his posts, and secondly he didn't play that well.

Or, I could just be honest and give a fair account of the situation.

I chose to do the latter. Don't see how this was scummy.

During Day 2 his behaviour was completely different. He is unsure of everything, after some subtle nudging from Macro votes him in the middle of the day, but drops his suspicions soon after that.

As far as the playstyle change, I will admit that being completely wrong about LS was rather discouraging and made it difficult for me to figure out reads and such.

I don't see how macro nudged me to vote for macro, could you please show me that quote?

I kept my suspicious up on macro for a while, I dropped them after a while because I was overthinking the situation and then decided he was town. I know it's not the best explanation but that is what happened.

But for DCL scum it makes sense - at that moment his lynch was really close, and he was ready to sacrifice himself to clear Macro spot by faking too strong town read.

At the point where I was close to getting lynched was still during day two where I was really feeling uncertain about reads and stuff so that is why I wasn't willing just to throw out a vote on someone else I thought was town at the time.

His Day 3 is even worse.

No, I would say my play day three has been better than day 2.

First he reminds everyone that he was a victim of scum driven counterwagon to Macro, with Fishy and SA scum. There is some logic in it so far. He votes Fishy, but once Fishy said that DCL isn't among his suspects, Fishy became town to DCL.

Yes, my initial reaction day 3 was to suspect fishy and SA. However, I carefully re-read macro iso, post 1014

In summery, I didn't feel like macro's interaction with fishy could be that of scum partner's. Yes, it is odd that I dropped my vote quickly, but the first one was just my initial thoughts before I actually did some iso stuff.

Yet he didn't switch to SA. Instead he waited for something to happen, and once Rhinox and Fishy started a wagon on me he jumped there, asking for a claim.

I didn't switch to him because during my re-read I found you, kortul, to be scummier. I jumped on you because I think you are scum. I did make a case on you.

He copied the reason for voting me from Rhinox and Fishy, but while they were arguing their cases, he was just doing something else, not a single comment on anything i say afterwards.

Want to show what I copied, how about some quotes, I'm confidant that I was not plagiarizing them, how about you provide some proof.

Maybe that's because he actually doesn't want to show double standards?

maybe because I didn't want to start a wall post war. I made my case, you gave your defense, I don't always feel like I need to have the last word.

That was the reason why LS become null read for me. Farther, in posts 748 and 751 he finds scummy the attempts of Macro to call him town for dubious reasons and sees it as placating, yet he has no comments when i find the same behaviour from LS scummy.

Not quite getting the point kortul is trying to make here. I don't recall LS trying to placate people, LS sure wasn't calling me town. This point by kortul is a little confusing.

Let's move on. Wagon on SA started, yet DCL makes no attempts to vote the only player remaining scummy on his counterwagon, doesn't even comment him.

um, maybe because I had already done my re-read at that point and had determined that you were the scummiest and had made a case and vote on you kortul.

When wagon on SA rolled to L-1, and Rhinox said that he is ready to hammer, DCL finally joined the crowd.

Um, SA was and still is one of my top three suspects. I didn't join the SA wagon at the start because my vote was on kortul and I would rather see him lynched. I considered voting SA instead because absolutely no one was going on the kortul wagon anymore which I found frusterating.

And what was his answer to Magua question? Kortul, Magua and SA were the only players he was ready to lynch, who at that moment were the only players for whom DCL wasn't a town read.

Hadn't noticed that, I don't think SA was calling me town when I made that list though.

In the last portion of SA research DCL isn't scum anymore, so the next very thing SA becomes DCL weakest scum read, with town vibes. And who is now scum on his counterwagon?

This point is blatently false, SA was already the weaker scum read before his wagon came up. I think I made myself clear that I would rather see you lynched.

So now i am sure that my vote is in the right place. And guess if Magua will say that DCL is town, i will remain his only suspect.

False, SA is still a suspect.

[DCLXVI]

Unless I'm mistaken that was a hammer.

[DCLXVI]

Well, that does explain why rhinox would hammer without a claim.

[DCLXVI]

@SA, nice twilight fakeclaim

OK good we're getting another scumflip.

Very likely that he is town, I don't think this is something scum would say in response to a guilty.

DDD, rhinox, voided are all clear town for me,

that leaves kortul, magua, fishy as possible scum candidates with two scum remaining.

[DCLXVI]

Green=deadtown
blue=alive town
red=scum
black=potential scum

End of Day Vote Count

Lastsurvivor (7)

-

nachomamma8

,

4nxi3ty

,

DCLXVI

,

Macrophage

, Alicewondering, kortul,

hiplop

Macrophage

(3) -

Voidedmafia, Debonair Danny DiPietro, rhinox

Debonair Danny DiPietro

(3) -

Sleepless Assassin,

fishythefish,

Lastsurvivor

I doubt all three scum jumped on the LS wagon. Fishy is very, very likely to be scum from this votecount.

Vote Count

Macrophage

(7) -

Voidedmafia

,

hiplop

,

Debonair Danny DiPietro,

kortul,

4nxi3ty

,

rhinox

DCLXVI

(4) -

Sleepless Assassin

,

Macrophage

, fishythefish
fishythefish (1) - Magua

Sleepless Assassin

(1) -

DCLXVI

Nothing really conclusive from this votecount, fishy was calling me town before coming onto my wagon, probably could have wanted to save macro. Either kortul or magua could be bussing a partner with their final vote.

Vote Count

Sleepless Assassin

(8) -

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, Magua,

Voidedmafia, rhinox

Magua (2) - fishythefish

rhinox

(1) -

Sleepless Assassin

DCLXVI

(1) - kortul
kortul (1) -

DCLXVI

Me vs kortul is potential town on town...ugh, I'm seeing a fishy and magua scumteam as the most likely right now.

VOTE: fishy

[DCLXVI]

DCL: fishy and magua? You really think that makes any sense?

It's simply PoE

Voided is town,
DDD is town
You (Rhinox) are likely town
I'm town.

that leaves three fishy, magua, and kortul. The day one ending votecount strongly suggests that both kortul and magua are not both scum. Therefor

Fishy/magua, or Fishy/kortul are the only remaining possibilities. I think that actually does make sense.

[DCLXVI]

And how does this pissing match thats been going on b/w fishy and magua fit into it? Its all an act?

They could be bussing each other. I think that is a completely possible option.

[DCLXVI]

Three mason's isn't op for town if that is pretty much all we have. voided is town.

[DCLXVI]

I've got no problem with the massclaim that just started, I'll wait for my turn.

[DCLXVI]

Already claimed in post 948. On my phone so can't quote but I'm a vt and fishy can go next.

[DCLXVI]

DCL can be next.

This post from magua feels townish.

I don't think scum would forget that I claimed vt earlier since they have motivation to keep track of claims (so that they can nk prs)

[DCLXVI]

out of curiosity what does that put me at?

[DCLXVI]

And really, "out of curiousity"? Whether you're town or scum, that's just unnecessarily scummy. Who feigns disinterest in their wagon?

*cough*confirmation bias *cough*

Nice that you automatically think I was faking when I implied that I didn't care. Or do you feel the need to make everything I say look scummy.

now about that supposed wagon on me

1. Two people does not a wagon make.
2. According to me PoE at least one (if not both) of the players on my supposed wagon are scum.
3. Kortul "case" on me is pityful, and yours is nonexistant

here is how I feel about my "wagon"

[DCLXVI]

@mod, I will be semi v/la from tomorrow through next saturday 6/9-6/16

Basically I'm going on vacation for a week. I will have my ipod and laptop with me and do expect to have access to the internet every day so I shouldn't have too much trouble keeping up with the game.

Just posting this because while I am pretty certain I will have internet access there is the small possibility that I won't for parts of the vacation so this is mostly just in case that happens.

[DCLXVI]

@Llama

VOTE: DCL

[DCLXVI]

I did threaten to hammer SA, but his catchup posts convinced me not to do it.

One of the problem I've noticed before with my play is that as town I've been on mislynches too often, so I've been trying to be less lynch happy.

[DCLXVI]

Prod dodge post.

[DCLXVI]

I think I made it clear earlier but I will say it again. I'd like today to end with either a fishy, mag, or kort lynch. Fishy is still my first choice. If that isn't going to happen my vote will go to either magua or kortul.

[DCLXVI]

I'll have a vote down tonight on someone other than fishy

[DCLXVI]

VOTE: Kortul

[DCLXVI]

Can't remember much about that v/la back in April. Given that I am a fairly active poster I probably thought I had posted something in the thread when I hadn't done so or it didn't go through or something.

[DCLXVI]

Give me 30minutes or do to figure out who gets my vote. I'll let you guys know when I've changed it.

[DCLXVI]

Hm, just like the last time I was at l-1 the "case" on me is complete bs.

@kortul, there is a reason no one has responded to your case on me...it sucks.
@fishy, not even sure why he is voting me.
@voided you PoE is off a lot if it is down to me being scum. Also, whatever u do, Plz Plz Plz do not give ur votes to fishy if u die tonight.

you guys are going to be putting yourselves in a tough position for tommorow.

Either kortul is scum for his bs case on me or fishy is scum for jumping on it the way he did.

Also, my last will is done so lynch away.

[DCLXVI]

The thing that is bothering me about magua is the fact that he defending me. I just don't know if he is scum buddying with me town defending a town read. Ugh.

[DCLXVI]

ah fuck...figured that might happen.

I was right about kortul though, and very wrong about DDD.